March 7th Rouge Park Public Meeting- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    March 7th Rouge Park Public Meeting

    http://www.dropmachine.com/forum/vie...p?f=12&t=35206

    From the link.

    Come out to hear what Rouge Park is including for mountain biking in their Master Trails Plan.

    I've met with them and Jason Murray @ IMBA on this and there are some good mtb things, like including a skills park.

    But they need to hear more about moutain bikers wanting access to all trails and that those trails need to be managed properly and that mtbr's are willing to volunteer to help manage trails.

    If you can't attend but would like to be heard please send your thoughs to TORBA via graham dot seaman at toronto-offroad dot org

    Below is cut and paste from the PDF invite.

    WHEN: Monday, March 7, 2011
    TIME: 5:00 p.m. to 9:00 p.m.
    LOCATION: Markham Museum, Transportation Room
    9350 Hwy 48
    (Markham Road at 16th Avenue)
    Markham, ON

    PUBLIC MEETING AGENDA
    Open House: 5:00 6:30 p.m.
    Presentation: 6:30 7:00 p.m.
    Workshop: 7:00 9:00 p.m.

    For further information on this project or if
    you wish to be added to the study mailing
    list, please contact:

    Diana Smyth
    Trail Coordinator, Rouge Park
    50 Bloomington Road West,
    Aurora, ON, L4G 0L8
    Tel: 905.713.3184
    Email: [email protected]

    Markus Hillar, BLArch
    Project Manager, SCHOLLEN & Company Inc.
    220 Duncan Mill Road, Suite 109
    Toronto, ON M3B 3J5
    Tel: 416.441.3044
    Email: [email protected]

    Information will be collected and used in accordance with the Freedom of Information and Protection of Privacy Act, and solely for the purpose
    of assisting the Rouge Park Alliance in meeting planning requirements. This material will be maintained on file for use during the study and
    may be included in project documentation. With the exception of personal information, all comments will become part of the public record.

  2. #2
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    OK, stupid question wouldn't it make more sense to have the meeting in the same area that Rouge Park is in? they'd get better turn out if they held it at U of T scarborough campus or something?

    Sounds to me like they are loadig the deck by holding the meeting out of area!

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    Quote Originally Posted by was98strat
    OK, stupid question wouldn't it make more sense to have the meeting in the same area that Rouge Park is in? they'd get better turn out if they held it at U of T scarborough campus or something?

    Sounds to me like they are loadig the deck by holding the meeting out of area!
    Sorry how this will sound but I'm very jaded in regards to Scarborough having seen how the areas near the Rouge are treated.


    I suspect the Friends of the Rouge are seeking to engage the more affluent Markham residents. those who will actually care and have time to do this sort of stuff. Which is funny when you consider the people who will get no say.. The poorer people in Scarborough who get ignored yet have the best access to the valley system in Scarborough.

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    Quote Originally Posted by was98strat
    OK, stupid question wouldn't it make more sense to have the meeting in the same area that Rouge Park is in? they'd get better turn out if they held it at U of T scarborough campus or something?

    Sounds to me like they are loadig the deck by holding the meeting out of area!

    Sounds to me like a great question to bring up at the meeting. was98strat will you be there to ask it or do you want to ask it of a MTBR person so that you can make a closer meeting, sounds like there will be more. Or perhaps just post up some ideas that you have for your area.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phat Tyred
    Sounds to me like a great question to bring up at the meeting. was98strat will you be there to ask it or do you want to ask it of a MTBR person so that you can make a closer meeting, sounds like there will be more. Or perhaps just post up some ideas that you have for your area.

    Keep in mind that there was an earlier meeting in November in regards to this. Jason Murray was in attendance as I recall.

  6. #6
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    When someone extends a hand to you like this, I've learned that you do everything you can to jump in and say "thank you very much" no matter where they stick the meetings. It's really easy to sit back and say "poor me" but things can happen surprisingly quickly with just a little effort. If this matters to you, get out there and be heard!
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster
    When someone extends a hand to you like this, I've learned that you do everything you can to jump in and say "thank you very much" no matter where they stick the meetings. It's really easy to sit back and say "poor me" but things can happen surprisingly quickly with just a little effort. If this matters to you, get out there and be heard!

    This. Though it is also good to be wary as well in this. Listen to others as speaking as well. Who ever shows up keep in mind at all times that the Friend's of The Rouge and the Alliance are not our friend's. Alot of them have a history of being anti bike.

  8. #8
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    Yes I was in attendance, and will be for this one. On top of that I've been working the phones and pressing the flesh. I've met in person with Markham, the some people from the Rouge Alliance, and Mark Schollen (the owner of the consulting company doing the work). I've also have excellent phone conversations with people at York Region, Pickering, and Toronto. I've sent email to the Fed MP and Prov MPP who are involved as well.

    It's time that a sport consider acceptable in Canadian National Parks be acceptable in one of Canada's largest urban parks as well. But we can only do that if we put bums in seats, respond to the plan, etc. and tell them that we want it, and are willing to work with them to make it successful.

    I consider legitimate mountain biking in the Rouge a major success if we can pull it off.

    PS The Rouge Park is much bigger than people realize. A huge part of it is in Markham. Holding the open house at the Museum makes a lot of sense. Much more central than at the Toronto Zoo operation offices on Old Finch.
    Jason Murray
    Rep for Ontario, IMBA Canada
    Visit the IMBA Canada site to keep current on all things IMBA in Canada.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jmurray
    It's time that a sport consider acceptable in Canadian National Parks be acceptable in one of Canada's largest urban parks as well. But we can only do that if we put bums in seats, respond to the plan, etc. and tell them that we want it, and are willing to work with them to make it successful.

    I consider legitimate mountain biking in the Rouge a major success if we can pull it off.

    Let us not forget that the Pan Ams will be 4 years. If I recall part of the deal with Olympics is that infrastructure is built for all. And considering mountain biking will be involved.

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    In regards to trail work... here is an example of what to date is considered acceptable trail work in the Rouge.





    Feel free to use these images if you like. The irony of these 2 pic's is that the material used - Pallets. Are exactly what would piss everyone off if mtbers built the same solution using the pallets.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil
    In regards to trail work... here is an example of what to date is considered acceptable trail work in the Rouge.





    Feel free to use these images if you like. The irony of these 2 pic's is that the material used - Pallets. Are exactly what would piss everyone off if mtbers built the same solution using the pallets.
    Try to smile, especially when you do not want to.
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil
    In regards to trail work... here is an example of what to date is considered acceptable trail work in the Rouge.
    I suppose that's better than nothing... but not by much. Really, the fundamental problem with that trail is that it's in the wrong place.
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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster
    I suppose that's better than nothing... but not by much. Really, the fundamental problem with that trail is that it's in the wrong place.
    Unfortunately I think that is all too common in southern Ontario, often in places where walking trails became cycling trails. The sad part, speaking from what I've seen/heard locally is that some folks are all too quick to slap MTB'ers with the blame when major erosion issues become apparent, when really the damage is just a result of poor original trail location.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LuMach
    Unfortunately I think that is all too common in southern Ontario, often in places where walking trails became cycling trails. The sad part, speaking from what I've seen/heard locally is that some folks are all too quick to slap MTB'ers with the blame when major erosion issues become apparent, when really the damage is just a result of poor original trail location.

    Some blame goers there. However equal blame goes to simple lack of trail maintenance. Without that being done all the time no trail no matter how well constructed is "sustainable".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil
    Some blame goers there. However equal blame goes to simple lack of trail maintenance. Without that being done all the time no trail no matter how well constructed is "sustainable".
    Yes.

    Mountain bikers (especially the old crusty guys who were around at the "start") have this image of themselves as independent mavericks who hate the "man". Thus, they are unwilling to join clubs or work with bureaucratic landowners. However, they are doing themselves a real disservice, as their illegal poached trails are poorly built rats-nests that really piss off old ladies with loud voices. Who have a lot of influence with land owners.

    In summary, join a club, do your bit and stop moaning. (not aimed at you, Enduramil)

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerdgirl
    Yes.

    Mountain bikers (especially the old crusty guys who were around at the "start") have this image of themselves as independent mavericks who hate the "man". Thus, they are unwilling to join clubs or work with bureaucratic landowners. However, they are doing themselves a real disservice, as their illegal poached trails are poorly built rats-nests that really piss off old ladies with loud voices. Who have a lot of influence with land owners.

    In summary, join a club, do your bit and stop moaning. (not aimed at you, Enduramil)
    No worries Nerdgirl. I readily admit I'm highly allergic to bureaucratic BS.

    Though to be fair... we need a mixture of both. You need the riders who meet with the powers that be. Some riders are better at that. While there are others who are far better at getting trail work done.

  17. #17
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    If I can I'll make the meeting no promises for that weekend.

    That reminds me there is an area of the Rouge River Valley that needs pictures taken off. It's really a dumpsite for the residents.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil
    If I can I'll make the meeting no promises for that weekend.

    That reminds me there is an area of the Rouge River Valley that needs pictures taken off. It's really a dumpsite for the residents.
    The "consulting" term for that is "encroachment" and if the consultants doing the work here are on their game, they already have lots and lots of pictures.
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster
    The "consulting" term for that is "encroachment" and if the consultants doing the work here are on their game, they already have lots and lots of pictures.
    Maybe so. But the first rule of combat is show up prepared. The consultants and other officials do not expect the voters to show up prepared.

    So sure the consultants may have their material but J Murray should have the pic's as well.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil
    Maybe so. But the first rule of combat is show up prepared. The consultants and other officials do not expect the voters to show up prepared.

    So sure the consultants may have their material but J Murray should have the pic's as well.
    Whoah whoah whoah! Combat? In our experience, coming in loaded for bear is not a productive approach. They're on the same team as you!

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerdgirl
    Whoah whoah whoah! Combat? In our experience, coming in loaded for bear is not a productive approach. They're on the same team as you!

    Military example. But applicable to most things. That being to show up prepared for the meeting.

    What will be interesting is what they will want to do with the area that is still technically Zoo land on the south side of the Rouge River. The area I'm speaking of is the abandoned Monorail line.

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    I have spent a huge amount of time in the Rouge in the last few years. One place I hope they leave alone is near the Old Finch Bailey Bridge. There used to be a old path that nature sort of exists. This goes up near the back of the Lions enclosure.

    Spots like that really should be neglected.

  23. #23
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    Enduramil, thanks for cross-posting here.

    Seriously folks, if you feel strongly about riding in the Rouge, show up, be polite and articulate so they can hear that there is demand for sustainable single track down there. The Rouge staff and designer are trying, but the other stakeholders are doing a better job at communicating their needs so far.

    Best regards,
    G
    Graham Seaman
    Vice President
    Toronto Off-Road Bicycle Association

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    Quote Originally Posted by cracker77

    Seriously folks, if you feel strongly about riding in the Rouge, show up, be polite and articulate so they can hear that there is demand for sustainable single track down there. The Rouge staff and designer are trying, but the other stakeholders are doing a better job at communicating their needs so far.

    As I mentioned earlier. The Rouge Alliance and Friends of The Rouge are anti mountain bike and well organized.

    http://www.frw.ca/

    http://www.rougepark.com/about/allia...x_alliance.php

    http://www.canadiangeographic.ca/cea...dual.asp?id=48

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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil
    As I mentioned earlier. The Rouge Alliance and Friends of The Rouge are anti mountain bike and well organized.

    http://www.frw.ca/

    http://www.rougepark.com/about/allia...x_alliance.php

    http://www.canadiangeographic.ca/cea...dual.asp?id=48
    Yes Endura ... but we have right on our side ... we just need to work it.

  27. #27
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    hah that's nothing, you should see the antibike groups up here... they stack the committees that set policy. even though on paper the committee looks like it is made
    of multiple independent groups... but when you trace the names they almost all belong to one or two groups and guess what policy they support.

    now you think they would welcome diversity/community on the committee. one has to present a curriculum vitae which then goes to review by... you guessed it! the committee
    broadcasting from
    "the vinyl basement"

    build trail!

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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket
    hah that's nothing, you should see the antibike groups up here... they stack the committees that set policy. even though on paper the committee looks like it is made
    of multiple independent groups... but when you trace the names they almost all belong to one or two groups and guess what policy they support.

    now you think they would welcome diversity/community on the committee. one has to present a curriculum vitae which then goes to review by... you guessed it! the committee
    That kinda sucks.

    Still, it's worth trying. For the Hamilton Cycling Committee, we submit a very detailed application and then we have to undergo an interview process with City staff and Council prior to appointment.

    My new project is trying to figure out how to get appointed to the Hamilton Conservation Authority's Advisory Board. On the surface, it looks like it would be similar but so far the details have eluded me.
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  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil
    As I mentioned earlier. The Rouge Alliance and Friends of The Rouge are anti mountain bike and well organized.

    http://www.frw.ca/

    http://www.rougepark.com/about/allia...x_alliance.php

    http://www.canadiangeographic.ca/cea...dual.asp?id=48
    Looking at the links I don't see any that are outright anti-mountain bike, heck most of the Alliance board are politicians which means they have to listen to you.

    Up until recently, there seems to be a lack of moutain bikers participating in the Rouge official discussion. So now's the time to show up and express our desires from the master plan. JMurray's been making good head way leading up to this meeting.

    As noted, please send me an email at graham dot seaman at toronto-offroad dot org to let me know your thougths if you can't make it. I will compile them and submit to the meeting team.

    See you March 7th? rsvp here.

    G
    Graham Seaman
    Vice President
    Toronto Off-Road Bicycle Association

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster
    That kinda sucks.
    you bet, the process to apply is elusive at best. they don't except e-mail pdf's, one has to
    fax an application in, i guess teletype is the preferred method.
    broadcasting from
    "the vinyl basement"

    build trail!

  31. #31
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    Another thing to note for anyone that goes is to be sure to fill out a comment sheet (there are always comment sheets). What you "say" at the meeting may or may not make it to the minutes (and might just get lumped into a general "notes" comment) but written comments are always retained and appended to the report.

    I know first-hand that any "important" people that can't attend the meeting head straight for the written comment appendix. Be clear. Be concise. And above all else, be constructive!
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  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket
    you bet, the process to apply is elusive at best. they don't except e-mail pdf's, one has to
    fax an application in, i guess teletype is the preferred method.
    For the Cycling Committee, I had to go to City Hall in person to deliver it. A pain but so worth it!
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  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by cracker77
    Looking at the links I don't see any that are outright anti-mountain bike, heck most of the Alliance board are politicians which means they have to listen to you.


    The people that created Friends of The Rouge are apparently who got bikes banned on trails in there. Justin aka Vince Vindaloo will have more info.

    The only group that may present a problem will be CN Rail. As there is a section near Ben Trash aka Beare Rd Dump where trail crosses the tracks.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster
    I suppose that's better than nothing... but not by much. Really, the fundamental problem with that trail is that it's in the wrong place.

    I don't believe this is an actual trail. It feels more like a access road . Like a logging road or when they do work to the hydro lines.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil
    The only group that may present a problem will be CN Rail. As there is a section near Ben Trash aka Beare Rd Dump where trail crosses the tracks.
    In our experience, CN is a sort of "don't ask, don't tell" kind of entity. They kinda pretend that a trail isn't there UNLESS there's a problem (like someone getting run over by a train, as happened just down the tracks from our house, ) and then they want you off the land prontissimo!
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  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster
    In our experience, CN is a sort of "don't ask, don't tell" kind of entity. They kinda pretend that a trail isn't there UNLESS there's a problem (like someone getting run over by a train, as happened just down the tracks from our house, ) and then they want you off the land prontissimo!

    Yep.

    Nice thing with this especially since they are talking about allowing skills park and such on Ben Trash. There is a level crossing right into the area where it would be.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil
    Like a logging road or when they do work to the hydro lines.
    You should see the cartwheels Hydro has to do around here to do line maintenance (yay, World Biosphere Reserve!). They have this (actually quite cool) floating road system they bring in to minimize the impact of all the heavy equipment. Even then, any time they come in (presumably to make sure that people have enough electricity to do these things on the internet) there are petitions and letter-writing campaigns galore. "Won't someone please consider the wood ducks!"
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