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  1. #1
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    logging at Durham

    Upper part of the singletrack down from the Bell tower is gone. DMBA is hoping to rebuild the Bell upper part of the single track.

    I've haven't seen it but I've heard a lot of the single track in the "centre" is gone now too. Can anybody confirm this or post pictures or give a better location? I'm going on a report from a friend who rode there this weekend.

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    That would suck if it were true.

    can someone confirm?

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by charles-in-charge
    can someone confirm?
    My friend sent me a map and northern section of "the maze" was circled as an area that had been logged. Despite it being relatively flat it was some of the best singletrack in the area.
    I believe somebody is heading out there this weekend to take pictures of the area.

  4. #4
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    I'm heading to Durham Forest

    I'm planning on heading to DF on Sunday to take some pics. I'll try to remember to post links to Flickr when I upload them.

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    Excuse my ignorance, but who/what is the DMBA?

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    Who is the DMBA

    No need for appology, the DMBA is a new club in the Durham Region.

    In full we are the Durham Mountain Bicycling Association. We formed in reponse to the need for an advocacy and trail access group in the Durham Region. This will be the first season that you will see the club active.

    Our objectives are:
    a) Advocating for mountain bicycling and land use within the Durham Region;
    b) Developing a strong network of sustainable, mountain bicycling, and multi-use, trails in and around the Durham Region;
    c) Partner with officials, land owners, and land mangers, on land access, environmental and development issues;
    d) Cultivation of a spirit of mutual assistance, co-operation, and understanding among the various trail user communities;
    e) Providing extra services as desired by the members of DMBA.

    Those "extra services" would typically include group rides, but also road trips to other trails systems, intro to cycling lessons, bike tune up days, patrolling services, etc. Of course it will take time for all of this to develop and it only will with the help of riders who join up and volunteer their time.

    What's in it for you? You'll be helping keep trails open, and improving the strength of the sport in the region.

    If you'd like to know more, or better yet to join. Please feel free to contact me directly.

  7. #7
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    How many memebers do you have?

    Have you registered your organization legally?

    How do you plan to receive funding for the works you plan?

    Is your organization carrying liability insurance in case someone ever decides to take legal actions if something happens to them on your trail network

  8. #8
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    Some answers

    Quote Originally Posted by skihillguy
    How many memebers do you have?

    Have you registered your organization legally?

    How do you plan to receive funding for the works you plan?

    Is your organization carrying liability insurance in case someone ever decides to take legal actions if something happens to them on your trail network
    SkiHillGuy you've doubted my efforts on this front before. I hear see a lot of questions from you. If you ride in the area you could get involved and help out. At any rate here are some answers.

    We currently have 69 members. At this point we are only a loose coalition. I hope to have more members signing up throughout the season.

    I wasn't aware that a bike club had to register itself legally. Yes we have a constitution and at one of the early meetings this season we'll have elections for the executive. We will not be a corporation for a long time, if it all, so I'm not sure registration is appropriate. We'll cross that bridge when we get to it.

    We will have membership fees for covering regular operating expenses such, as banking fees, insurance, IMBA affiliation, etc. Any money we need for projects will come from grants or fundraising.

    We don't carry liability insurance as of yet because we have not raised enough funds to pay for it. We have only one paying member at this point. Why so few? Well my approach is to prove to Durham mountain bikers that the club is for real, and that there are tangible benefits to belonging. That effort, which will take time, starts tomorrow at the Ice Breaker.

    And one more thing, we don't have our own trail system. We are primarily concerned at this point with Glen Major/Walker Woods and Durham Forest. We are also concerned with Rouge Park, Seaton Hiking Trail, and Greenwood CA. As we gain members who ride elsewhere then we'll expand our interest to those areas. As a volunteer organization we can only do as much as the volunteers are willing to do.

    So I ask you, would you join? If not, what would it take to convince you?

  9. #9
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    I don't doubt that you care about mtn biking and mtn biking issues. But as a rider I feel i have a right to ask certain questions to make sure everyone can draw there own conclusions.
    I'm sure you have many good intentions. I ask questions because that is how one gains knowledge. You answered many questions but yet you also raised many more questions with your response. While I agree it can be very difficult to start a new organization I fear you may be heading down the creek without a paddle.

    1. You say you have 69 members but further down you explain that you have only 1 paying member? Can you please clarify how that works? How do you elect an executive when only one is a paid member?


    2. How can you go and apply for grants and fundraising if your group has not become registered legally in some fashion? If you came to me trying to raise funds and you weren't registered how would I know you weren't some fly by night operation?

    3. How do you propose to open bank accounts when your " loose coalition" is not a registered entity?

    4. I would think that some form of liability insurance would be a definitive neccessary in order to protect your executive from any possible legal issues. Look at how much litigation took place from that bike rider who crashed up near collingwood a couple of years ago. Are you not concerned that your executive could be held acountable personally for any and all trailwork or trail advocacy if you don't have insurance?


    5. I see you keep talking about doing all this trail work and taking on these issues in Durham region. So thats why I called it your trail network.

    I already belong to one of the worlds largest and best off road cycling associations. We are involved in trail maintainance, advocacy, races, and getting people to enjoy and grow the sport. So if you want to see first hand how a real cycling association works then why not come hang out this year at the IMBA summit.

    You seem to imply that I take some cheap shots at your efforts. I'm just asking questions and you ought not to take them personally. At this point personally I wouldn't sign up with your group untils it becomes better organized...but thats just my opinion

    Quote Originally Posted by jmurray
    SkiHillGuy you've doubted my efforts on this front before. I hear see a lot of questions from you. If you ride in the area you could get involved and help out. At any rate here are some answers.

    We currently have 69 members. At this point we are only a loose coalition. I hope to have more members signing up throughout the season.

    I wasn't aware that a bike club had to register itself legally. Yes we have a constitution and at one of the early meetings this season we'll have elections for the executive. We will not be a corporation for a long time, if it all, so I'm not sure registration is appropriate. We'll cross that bridge when we get to it.

    We will have membership fees for covering regular operating expenses such, as banking fees, insurance, IMBA affiliation, etc. Any money we need for projects will come from grants or fundraising.

    We don't carry liability insurance as of yet because we have not raised enough funds to pay for it. We have only one paying member at this point. Why so few? Well my approach is to prove to Durham mountain bikers that the club is for real, and that there are tangible benefits to belonging. That effort, which will take time, starts tomorrow at the Ice Breaker.

    And one more thing, we don't have our own trail system. We are primarily concerned at this point with Glen Major/Walker Woods and Durham Forest. We are also concerned with Rouge Park, Seaton Hiking Trail, and Greenwood CA. As we gain members who ride elsewhere then we'll expand our interest to those areas. As a volunteer organization we can only do as much as the volunteers are willing to do.

    So I ask you, would you join? If not, what would it take to convince you?

  10. #10
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    One last post

    I'm going to answer your questions inline.

    Quote Originally Posted by skihillguy
    I don't doubt that you care about mtn biking and mtn biking issues. But as a rider I feel i have a right to ask certain questions to make sure everyone can draw there own conclusions.
    I'm sure you have many good intentions. I ask questions because that is how one gains knowledge. You answered many questions but yet you also raised many more questions with your response. While I agree it can be very difficult to start a new organization I fear you may be heading down the creek without a paddle.

    You've expressed this opinion before, yet you offer no alternatives. I've put 2+ years into this effort so far and the progress has been excellent. I've met most of the key land managers, I've got a very good working relationship with the IMBA Canada coordinators, I've talked with many other clubs in my province... They all say that things look good, and I'm headed in the right direction. But you think I'm up the creek without a paddle. Okay, you're entitled to your opinions, but why are your opinions more valid than the many others I have that think I not only have a paddle, but I'm in a motor boat?

    Quote Originally Posted by skihillguy
    1. You say you have 69 members but further down you explain that you have only 1 paying member? Can you please clarify how that works? How do you elect an executive when only one is a paid member?

    Many of the concerns you've raised hint at a need for trust and credibility. If I came to you and said "Hi I'm Jason and I want you to give me $20 because I'm forming a club to advocate for mountain bikers in Durham." What would you do? Well you've made it clear that you would not give me the money, nor would I expect you to. So how does one boot strap the club? Club's don't form fully formed from Zues' head. My approach has been to generate interest from local riders and with that grass roots level of interest build from there. We need the first few to "take a chance" on the club. When we prove to ourselves that we are legitimate and for real, we can then start to get others outside the "early adopter" group interested.

    So to make it clear. We have 69 people at the grass roots level who I hope are willing to take a chance. We have 1 (outside of the core) that already has taken a chance.

    As for electing the executive. Anyone who shows up the the general meetings is allowed a vote. When we have a larger membership this will be limited to memebers only. Regardless no one is stepping up to do what I'm doing, so I am the president by acclimation. Although I only go by the title Acting President for now, until we have a large number of people actually vote me into office later this season.

    Quote Originally Posted by skihillguy
    2. How can you go and apply for grants and fundraising if your group has not become registered legally in some fashion? If you came to me trying to raise funds and you weren't registered how would I know you weren't some fly by night operation?
    Well as long as the club is IMBA affiliated it qualifies for numerous grants. Guess what the club is IMBA affiliated. As for other grants, we evaluate the requirements and decide if it is worth pursuing them. For instance there is a joint OCA/IMBA grant worth $500. But to affliate to OCA costs $250. So it is not really worth affiliating to the OCA just to get the grant. If we were a race oriented club and already were affiliated it would make more sense.

    As for being legally registered, let me put it this way. If you want to start a business you can do so as a sole proprietor. You don't have to register you business, you simple open up shop, go to the bank and open up a bank account in the companies name (or not) and start doing business. It will take time for people to "trust" you enough to give you their money, but soon enough, if you are providing good service word will get around and your business will be "legitimate." At least that's how my father did it with the family business. Later they incorporated (registered) for other reasons, but not at first.

    Quote Originally Posted by skihillguy
    3. How do you propose to open bank accounts when your " loose coalition" is not a registered entity?
    I'm going to go to the bank, open up and account in the name of the DMBA, and say these are the people who are allowed to make withdrawals. My wife's baseball league isn't any different than that. Each time an executive with signing authority changes, the others go to the bank and inform them of the change.


    Quote Originally Posted by skihillguy
    4. I would think that some form of liability insurance would be a definitive neccessary in order to protect your executive from any possible legal issues. Look at how much litigation took place from that bike rider who crashed up near collingwood a couple of years ago. Are you not concerned that your executive could be held acountable personally for any and all trailwork or trail advocacy if you don't have insurance?
    Yes, I am. To get insurance you need money, to get money you need members. Or to take a completely different approach. I could fund the initial year's insurance premium, but then I need paying members in order to send a membership list in to the insurance company. Any way you slice it you need fully paying members, which leads back to one of my earlier answers. You have to take the time and build the trust that the club needs to get members. At some point you reach a critical mass and things click together in this regard.

    Quote Originally Posted by skihillguy
    5. I see you keep talking about doing all this trail work and taking on these issues in Durham region. So thats why I called it your trail network.
    I understand. I just wanted to make it clear, because there are other clubs (GORBA) that actually are the approved trail care crew for specific trail systems. I would love our club to get to that point, but there are many competing interests here, so I doubt that will happen quickly if at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by skihillguy
    I already belong to one of the worlds largest and best off road cycling associations. We are involved in trail maintainance, advocacy, races, and getting people to enjoy and grow the sport. So if you want to see first hand how a real cycling association works then why not come hang out this year at the IMBA summit.
    Well I will be at the summit. What club do you belong to? What is your name? We can have a long chat over some food. I have one more question for you in this regard. Were you involved in getting the club off the ground to the point that it is at now? If so I'm even more interested in talking to you. Remember we aren't "one of the world largest and best" associations. At this point we are a loose grass root coalition of riders. The same way all clubs start out.

    Quote Originally Posted by skihillguy
    You seem to imply that I take some cheap shots at your efforts. I'm just asking questions and you ought not to take them personally. At this point personally I wouldn't sign up with your group untils it becomes better organized...but thats just my opinion
    Please don't read implications in to text, nor sarcasm either. Text is not a good medium for those things. I try to make things clear and precise in my writing to avoid confusion and misunderstanding.

    I also understand that you wouldn't sign up with our club. But I'm hoping that I can reach those willing to take a chance on a young club. Then in 3-5 years we would be at a point where you would join us. This will take time, but we have to start somewhere.

    Ever heard the saying: "How to you eat an elephant? One bite at a time." Well we're just nibbling on the tail right now.

  11. #11

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    I think you have the right idea.

  12. #12
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    like you i'll post through answers inline
    Quote Originally Posted by jmurray
    I'm going to answer your questions inline.




    You've expressed this opinion before, yet you offer no alternatives. I've put 2+ years into this effort so far and the progress has been excellent. I've met most of the key land managers, I've got a very good working relationship with the IMBA Canada coordinators, I've talked with many other clubs in my province... They all say that things look good, and I'm headed in the right direction. But you think I'm up the creek without a paddle. Okay, you're entitled to your opinions, but why are your opinions more valid than the many others I have that think I not only have a paddle, but I'm in a motor boat?

    Many people may agree that your plan seems to go in the right direction. And I know what you want to doand it does have merit. But it's the other littl;e issues that you need to pay attention too.



    Many of the concerns you've raised hint at a need for trust and credibility. If I came to you and said "Hi I'm Jason and I want you to give me $20 because I'm forming a club to advocate for mountain bikers in Durham." What would you do? Well you've made it clear that you would not give me the money, nor would I expect you to. So how does one boot strap the club? Club's don't form fully formed from Zues' head. My approach has been to generate interest from local riders and with that grass roots level of interest build from there. We need the first few to "take a chance" on the club. When we prove to ourselves that we are legitimate and for real, we can then start to get others outside the "early adopter" group interested.
    If you have talked to all these clubs then why do not pursue them to buy some sort of corporate membership which would help you gain credibility and help give you a starting budget to work with. Just by belonging to OCA gives you credibility that you are a legitimate club.
    So to make it clear. We have 69 people at the grass roots level who I hope are willing to take a chance. We have 1 (outside of the core) that already has taken a chance.
    Then sell these people a membership which will show that you have an actual club with an actual growing membership. Let these people show the money if they believe in your group
    As for electing the executive. Anyone who shows up the the general meetings is allowed a vote. When we have a larger membership this will be limited to memebers only.
    I have a 100 hundred relatives who wanna show up to vote for the executive but without joining. To hold a legitimate election of a execuitve you need to have a membership.

    Regardless no one is stepping up to do what I'm doing, so I am the president by acclimation. Although I only go by the title Acting President for now, until we have a large number of people actually vote me into office later this season.
    What do you consider to be a large enough number to vote you into office?



    Well as long as the club is IMBA affiliated it qualifies for numerous grants. Guess what the club is IMBA affiliated. As for other grants, we evaluate the requirements and decide if it is worth pursuing them. For instance there is a joint OCA/IMBA grant worth $500. But to affliate to OCA costs $250. So it is not really worth affiliating to the OCA just to get the grant. If we were a race oriented club and already were affiliated it would make more sense.
    Every bit of money is worth going after. Already you are being selective about which grants you will go after. Affiliating to OCa will give you more legimacy and show that you are for real.
    As for being legally registered, let me put it this way. If you want to start a business you can do so as a sole proprietor. You don't have to register you business, you simple open up shop, go to the bank and open up a bank account in the companies name (or not) and start doing business. It will take time for people to "trust" you enough to give you their money, but soon enough, if you are providing good service word will get around and your business will be "legitimate." At least that's how my father did it with the family business. Later they incorporated (registered) for other reasons, but not at first.
    Let me clarify for you since I did own a business in the province of Ontario. And yes I was a sole propietor! You need to register to register the business name with consumer and corporate affairs dept...downtown toronto somewhere. Then you take the paper they give you and go to the bank to open a commercial account. You must also register with Revenue Canada for a gst number. I would seriously suggest you consult with a lawyer regarding issues of liability for a setup such as yours that you are planning as a sole propietor. You are much more open to liability than if you were incorporated! Seriously go see a lawyer. And an accountant!

    On the insurance front...go see a layer for advice on that front. Like I have already said what happens if or when someone gets hurts on the trails you have either worked on or have advocated for and they decide to sue someone. Look how much the liability insurance costs for clubs and they carry it to protect there officers from legal issues. Look at what happened when that lawyer got hurt at 3stages I believe t was and how he sued everyone he could think of. Look at what the costs of that could be


    I'm going to go to the bank, open up and account in the name of the DMBA, and say these are the people who are allowed to make withdrawals. My wife's baseball league isn't any different than that. Each time an executive with signing authority changes, the others go to the bank and inform them of the change.




    Yes, I am. To get insurance you need money, to get money you need members. Or to take a completely different approach. I could fund the initial year's insurance premium, but then I need paying members in order to send a membership list in to the insurance company. Any way you slice it you need fully paying members, which leads back to one of my earlier answers. You have to take the time and build the trust that the club needs to get members. At some point you reach a critical mass and things click together in this regard.
    I agree it takes upfront money to open a club. And I would suggest that you may have to front that and get repaid later on for opening costs. But that is the only way to grow a business unless you can get someone else to fund it.

    I understand. I just wanted to make it clear, because there are other clubs (GORBA) that actually are the approved trail care crew for specific trail systems. I would love our club to get to that point, but there are many competing interests here, so I doubt that will happen quickly if at all.



    Well I will be at the summit. What club do you belong to? What is your name? We can have a long chat over some food. I have one more question for you in this regard. Were you involved in getting the club off the ground to the point that it is at now? If so I'm even more interested in talking to you. Remember we aren't "one of the world largest and best" associations. At this point we are a loose grass root coalition of riders. The same way all clubs start out.
    I belong to WORCA which is the host club for 2006 IMBA mtn bike summit. You can look at the website. www.worca.com
    No i wasn't present for the begings of the club but I am currently a member in good standing. to give you an idea our 2005 membership dues were$40 per person .....of which approx 27 went to insurance...and then a portion directly to trail maintaince and some to support the youth aspect.


    Please don't read implications in to text, nor sarcasm either. Text is not a good medium for those things. I try to make things clear and precise in my writing to avoid confusion and misunderstanding.

    I also understand that you wouldn't sign up with our club. But I'm hoping that I can reach those willing to take a chance on a young club. Then in 3-5 years we would be at a point where you would join us. This will take time, but we have to start somewhere.

    Ever heard the saying: "How to you eat an elephant? One bite at a time." Well we're just nibbling on the tail right now.
    You seem to take much of what I offer personally..as you have directly attacked me at the outset of a couple of your posts. I don't care what you wanna say about me but i did used to live and ride back east. So I will care about happens back there. Maybe if you get your cards together and can show or prove to me that you are legitmate I could be persuaded to buy a memebership but first I'd want to make sure that everything is order.
    I do hope you get your group going and get it going legitimately.... both financially and in terms of membership and legal issues. It's not a cheap nor an easy thing to get started but you seem to have a desire to do it.

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    paddler

    jmurray I just wanted to say thanks for your efforts in working toward something that benifits all MTBers. I like your approach of dealing with things one step at a time. If you looked at all the problems at one time, it might become overwhelming. Not to sure that I would want to defend myself against criticism while tring to create more FREE singletrack for the public. You are a good man.
    Who knows maybe someone who is part of the worlds largest and best off road association will help with not just questions, but answers.

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    I never made any claim we were the "the best" so I'd appreciate you not sticking words in peoples mouths.

    I'm trying to get Jmurray to look out for potential problems and deal with them before they become an issue that might destroy his dreams.

    To give you an example... if you volunteer for say Blue Mtn ski resorts they must cover you with WSIB in case of injury while you are performing your volunteer duties. Now say if you were out performing trail maintainace or trailbuilding and pulled your back. Say you couldn't go the next day and perform your regular poaying job. Wouldn't you expect that the group you were volunteering for was covered with all the essentials so that you could make a claim and not be stuck for say lost wages while you were injured????

    How to set this part of WSIB up I'm not sure and I;'m not sure what the costs are but it's definitely worthwhile looking into. Legitmate businesses do not just set up overnight. They look into every issue and make sure all there ducks are in a row before getting going. Only fly by night just appear in the morning.

    Many times you can get businesses to donate some materials to trailbuilding . But what business in there right mind is going to donate material to someone who walks in and says " hey we wanna build few trails.... ". These businesses whoi might donate materials or services will want to know alot about the organization they will be donating too.

    So I am providing answers but also seeking many answers from Jmurray but he doesn't seem to be forthcoming with them. He states that 1 person has already bought a membership and 69 have free memberships? What is the actual cost of paid membership??

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    New question here.

    Guys, could you start another thread for your discussion?
    2008 Trek Fuel EX 8
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  16. #16
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    Or just call each other up and have a real conversation.

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    revrnd so sorry I thought this thread was about Durham Forest

    SuperNewb, um , what, am I using MTBR incorrectly?

    Anyway thanks for your thoughts.

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    It started off about the logging at durham forest then 2 ppl starting bickering back and forth about a club....

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    Pics of the logging

    I used up the remainder of my flickr uploading limit. So that's it for a while.

    You can try this link http://www.flickr.com/photos/5688570...7594093878311/

    But they are tagged as durhamforest so a search for that or Andre Crabtree should find the pics.

    These pics are all in the section called either The Maze or Lumpy Gravey.

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    Thanks for the update jmurray

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    at least it appears that they used selective harvesting. also appears from some of the pics that they only went after the pine!

    At least they logged during the winter so as to prevent excessive damage to the forest floor. Some places when they harvest during spring summer or fall more damage can occur the skidders than what it appears to have been the case here.

    You have lots of tree limbs and brush to use to clearly define trails through the area. Use them wisely and use them to prevent " spider webbing" of trails where people may want to shortcut corners.

  22. #22
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    Jmurray there is also another approach you can take to try to restore Durham forest trails. Since you seem to be tight with land managers and such approach them and try to have them pressure the logging company to go in and clean up. Cetainly there must have been some sort of clause to that effect in there contract to log the area.

    You may also be able to try and persuade the logging company to donate a sum of money to DMBA in lieu of all the damage to the trail network out there. Either way it may take some arm twisting to begin to get companies to begn to recognize that mtn bikers and virtually all trail users are valid groups that need to be compensated.

    And do not just limit yourself to mtn bike people. Many groups of runners enjoy trail running and can be turned to for assistanca as well.

  23. #23
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    It looks like 2 areas were logged. Due north of the 2 microwave towers & SE of Coyote Jct inside the Blue Spruce Loop.
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