It's happened again...

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  • 03-10-2011
    teebor76xc
    It's happened again...
    http://www.thespec.com/sports/articl...od-friday-race

    Yes i know it sucks when you crash your bike in a race but come on...
    ...you signed the waivers.

    Why can't people take responsibility for their own actions?
    \
    The fact that they want $20,000,000.00 lets me know that it is frivilous.

    Who let all they yankees in?
  • 03-10-2011
    LuMach
    what a piece of work..
  • 03-10-2011
    osokolo
    throw as much crap at the wall
    and hope some will stick...
    It will be interesting to hear GM and his thoughts, but it may be a conflict of interest for him to talk about it... Unless there were some GLARING errors on part of the organizers (which i strongly doubt), I hope that waiver will be sufficient to repel the suit...

    As much as I am sorry for the guy who was injured, we all take the risk of getting injured when we sign up for any of the races. Accidents happen, and every time I line up for the start of the race I am aware that I am risking a serious injury - I CHOOSE to race and ACCEPT the risk of injury. No one is forcing this upon me.

    With all my symphaty going to Chris, the law suit is disgusting and can not get my approval.

    I wish Chris the best and to fully recover from the injury. The only suggestion that I have for Chris is: consider switching sports. Chess is a bit safer. If you can not take personal responsibility for your actions - do not engage in potentially unsafe activities.



    Quote:

    Originally Posted by teebor76xc
    http://www.thespec.com/sports/articl...od-friday-race

    Yes i know it sucks when you crash your bike in a race but come on...
    ...you signed the waivers.

    Why can't people take responsibility for their own actions?
    \
    The fact that they want $20,000,000.00 lets me know that it is frivilous.

    Who let all they yankees in?

  • 03-10-2011
    nspace
    Completely agree, ride at your own risk. I suppose the flipside to that, is that you resort to a law suit like this when your head is messed up and you can't work or provide for your family.

    But as mentioned, I would like to think the majority of cyclists (notably those who are racing) are familiar with the inherent risks that come with the territory.
  • 03-10-2011
    rkj__
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by teebor76xc
    The fact that they want $20,000,000.00 lets me know that it is frivilous.

    This quote stands out for me as well:

    "Christine James... says one of the family’s main motivations for filing the suit is to make the race safer."

    Obviously, they can't reverse the damage done, but I do believe that they would not wish the same fate on any other cyclists. If they feel that the race can be made safer, I can understand that they would try to take some actions to motivate the relevant parties to make the GFRR and other races safer.

    I don't think a $20 000 000 suit is going to help anybody though.

    I think we all recognize the risk associated with bike racing.

    In this case, from what I understand, the crash was simply a "racing incident" that was not necessarily the result of any poor decision making on the part of the HCC or OCA. I'm not an expert on safety in road racing though.

    I can only hope that the waivers offer sufficient protection for the the HCC and OCA. I hate to see the misfortunes of one spoil the fun for the whole party.
  • 03-10-2011
    garage monster
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by osokolo
    It will be interesting to hear GM and his thoughts, but it may be a conflict of interest for him to talk about it....

    All I can say is that I can't say anything.

    [lurk]
  • 03-10-2011
    XLNC
    Makes me wonder, if this is worth 20 mill, then that poor kid that was hit here in Hamilton and was KILLED by the out of control vehicle after an accident (east 14th and Howe sts) should be worth what? 100 mill, 150 mill maybe 200 mill?
  • 03-10-2011
    thedumbopinion
    Its a sad situation that he and his family are suffering this type of injury due to a cycling accident and that it could last the remainder of his lifetime. In reality this could happen to any one of us.

    As we all understand the risk, and I'm sure he did at the start of the race, circumstances may developed during the race that make you feel different after the outcome. I've seen plenty of racers very upset at then end of a race due to another's actions.

    Will the waivers prove to be enough? I suppose that depends on how good his lawyers are.

    Perhaps this is a reminder of how quickly it can "go away". If a rider crashes on some trails and sues the land owner that could mean no more MTB'ing on the property. If the HCC loses insurance coverage after a $20mil lawsuit it could mean no more bike club.
  • 03-10-2011
    rkj__
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by thedumbopinion
    HCC loses insurance coverage after a $20mil lawsuit it could mean no more bike club.

    If the OCA loses insurance coverage after a $20mil lawsuit it could mean....? :confused:
  • 03-10-2011
    ghettocruiser
    I do find it a bit telling that such claims are made against cycling organizations for events, when similar or greater injuries incurred during general riding as a result of motorist negligence and/or vehicular assault seem to result in minimal settlements, or no settlements at all.

    It's possible that council for all parties will be browsing here looking for additional information and/or grievances, so think before you post.
  • 03-10-2011
    Nerdgirl
    Suits like this are all about the money - not the principle.
    The insurance company doesn't want to be liable for expensive long term disability payments (more costly to keep someone alive than compensate their death). Thus, they want to shift the cost to a different insurance company and will fund lawyers well in order to try to do so.
  • 03-10-2011
    osokolo
    very interesting point indeed...
    I wonder how much input his insurance company had on this lawsuit...



    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Nerdgirl
    Suits like this are all about the money - not the principle.
    The insurance company doesn't want to be liable for expensive long term disability payments (more costly to keep someone alive than compensate their death). Thus, they want to shift the cost to a different insurance company and will fund lawyers well in order to try to do so.

  • 03-10-2011
    rkj__
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Nerdgirl
    Suits like this are all about the money - not the principle.

    I believe your point is valid.
  • 03-10-2011
    Enduramil
    I'm curious, what Cat was he in?
  • 03-10-2011
    saturnine
    would it be taken more seriously if the suit was only for a million? people always want to blame someone else for their mistakes. 40 kmh on a bike is dangerous. period. there are reasons why i don't ride a road bike, and that is one of them. best of luck to all involved in this frivolity.
  • 03-10-2011
    KINBOY
    Its sad but a lot of the waivers mean little in the overall situation as most companies will pay out as a drawn out lawsuit will cost a lot. The fact they are asking that amount leads me to believe it will go to court. If the club and OCA win it would be good to set a precedent in Ontario, if they lose it could be disastrous to the sport and similar ones.
    He knew the risks, this is what we need inherent liability for, you sign on, you participate, you know the risks unless negligence can be proven.
  • 03-10-2011
    l-s-d
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Enduramil
    I'm curious, what Cat was he in?

    This was his first race ever, so the Canadian equivalent of Cat 5.
  • 03-10-2011
    osokolo
    which is, i believe, M3
    i was considering this race, but when found out that i would have to start in M3 - i said fuggedaboudid...

    enough wannabe racers in that category that NEVER rode in a peleton...

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by l-s-d
    This was his first race ever, so the Canadian equivalent of Cat 5.

  • 03-10-2011
    jmoote
    Beginner races are always sketchy, but especially so in Ontario where a strong club structure has died off except for a select few regional clubs and a mandatory provincial learn to race course no longer exists. The result is a bunch of people who have no way to educate themselves on how to race bikes except to... race their bikes. Cycling clubs offer smaller and safer environments to practice this than jumping into an O-Cup race with a couple hundred others with similar inexperience.

    As for the lawsuit, I agree with much of the already expressed sentiment. It's definitely about the money and it's disgusting. I wish the best for Chris and his family, but I really hope they don't get any sort of settlement out of the OCA's insurance company, as this would represent a huge defeat for bike racing in Ontario.
  • 03-10-2011
    Enduramil
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jmoote
    and a mandatory provincial learn to race course no longer exists.


    Interesting. Especially if one considers the intricacies of road racing. This especially for road races would be a good thing to have.
  • 03-10-2011
    osokolo
    Hey shirk... say something
    don't just lurk...
  • 03-10-2011
    Kay.
    The high-ish starting figure may also be a tactic leading to a subsequent offer to settle for somewhat (or much) less. My best wishes to the OCA, HCC and all others named as defendants in this suit.
  • 03-10-2011
    shirk
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by osokolo
    don't just lurk...

    wtf?
  • 03-11-2011
    FlipFantasia
    make racing safer? by killing it completely?
  • 03-11-2011
    Nerdgirl
    You know what? I think I take it back. Odds on the guy (a chef) didn't have disability insurance, which really sucks for him and his family, but it's still not reasonable to blame the club or OCA for a very unfortunate racing incident. A good lesson though - make sure you have disability insurance!!!

    A lawsuit is DEFINITELY not the way to make racing in future safer. Really, if the race were to change to "improve safety" at this point, it would be like admitting that it was unsafe before, so even if the club or OCA wanted to, they couldn't without admitting some sort of liability.

    Gotta say, the claims are fairly ridiculous, but I guess you don't win the lottery if you don't buy a ticket. The lawyer's probably got a nice percentage contingency negotiated.

    Here's hoping Mr. Uy's brain heals quickly and completely.
  • 03-11-2011
    jcr1
    Racing a bike is dangerous and I hope everybody realize it before they enter a race. I never really taught about it until I had a bad accident at a local race last summer. To make a long story short, got taken down, woke up in the ambulance...pretty bad concussion and separated shoulder. Since then, I choose which race I register in carefully and I am more aware of my surrounding (who is around me) in the race.

    People sue because it is really easy to do so. Judge are ex-lawyers and the whole law community understand the game, most of it is more about money than justice. Most of those lawsuit don't get in court and get settle by insurance adjuster. It's unfortunate this guy got hurt and can't provide for his family however he knew the risk before hand. What is the easy thing to do when you sit at home feeling sorry for yourself? call a lawyer and try to get an easy payout. I would like to feel sorry for him but a lawsuit like this make me loose alot of respect for the guy.

    What would we do if we where stuck at home, broke with no job and somebody would offer us a big chunk of cash and the only thing you would have to do is sign the paper???
  • 03-11-2011
    Braids
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Nerdgirl
    Gotta say, the claims are fairly ridiculous, but I guess you don't win the lottery if you don't buy a ticket. The lawyer's probably got a nice percentage contingency negotiated.

    That's the problem, people look at an injury as a lottery ticket and not a disaster anymore.
  • 03-11-2011
    veteran_youth
    I know some folk from a local cycling club here that had a fundraiser for him last summer. Well intentioned but I cannot help but think that anybody who donated to his cause is kicking themselves now knowing they indirectly enabled this guy's attempt to gut bike racing in Ontario as we know it.
  • 03-11-2011
    Enduramil
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Nerdgirl
    You know what? I think I take it back. Odds on the guy (a chef) didn't have disability insurance, which really sucks for him and his family, but it's still not reasonable to blame the club or OCA for a very unfortunate racing incident. A good lesson though - make sure you have disability insurance!!!


    There is a better question to ask in this. Is the lawsuit being driven by Uy or his girlfriend?

    Can't help but think that she is taking advantage of his confusion and manipulating him into this.
  • 03-11-2011
    rkj__
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Enduramil
    There is a better question to ask in this. Is the lawsuit being driven by Uy or his girlfriend?

    Can't help but think that she is taking advantage of his confusion and manipulating him into this.

    I'd be surprised if the law suit was in fact rider Chris' idea.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jcr1
    What would we do if we where stuck at home, broke with no job and somebody would offer us a big chunk of cash and the only thing you would have to do is sign the paper???

    Yup, it's real easy to point fingers and preach accountability when your healthy, and able to provide for your family. But, when one realizes they are no longer able to support their family like they used to, a person's attitude might change.
  • 03-11-2011
    Biggie
    I've already been down this road.

    Five or so years back a scrum half for a SW Ontario team became paralyzed as the result of a dirty rugby play. His Father's work, his rugby team (my rugby team), Rugby Ontario and Rugby Canada all fundraised on his behalf. I believe $500,000 was raised. He then went on a tour to Europe with his teammates.

    Soon thereafter, he sued our rugby team (and its President - my good friend), Rugby Ontario and Rugby Canada. It was complicated, our rugby team's spam filters had blocked an email relaying a (BIG) reduction in payouts for catastrophic injuries, so he wasn't as eligible for a big payout lilke what had been available the previous year.

    I'm not sure how the suit turned out, but I think the local rugby team and their President were not financially responsible and the two big umbrella associations made a decent sized settlement.
  • 03-11-2011
    KINBOY
    How about if they win and mean it they give 80% to OCA to improve the safety of the sport.....
  • 03-11-2011
    Circlip
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by KINBOY
    How about if they win and mean it they give 80% to OCA to improve the safety of the sport.....

    Something makes me think that a circular transaction of this nature won't sit very well with the insurance company, but yeah, I had the same of thought as you did in this respect, even if the beneficiary wasn't the OCA but some other way of investing the settlement back into helping to creare a safer sport.
  • 03-11-2011
    Unglued
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by XLNC
    Makes me wonder, if this is worth 20 mill, then that poor kid that was hit here in Hamilton and was KILLED by the out of control vehicle after an accident (east 14th and Howe sts) should be worth what? 100 mill, 150 mill maybe 200 mill?


    Doesn't work like that. Legal damages are to compensate. $20,000,000 is really just a number and has nothing to do with what Mr. Uy's entitlement to damages actually is, although I expect that the lawyer who filed this claim had some media savvy in choosing this particular number.

    He will be entitled to damages for pain and suffering (which the Ontario Court of Appeal capped in 1985 to $250,000), plus compensation for what he might reasonably be expected to earn over his lifetime, less his post-accident earning capacity, the cost of medical services he may need (speech therapy, occupational therapy, physio etc) and such like. Realistically speaking, this will be a big number but will not be 8 figures.

    If someone is killed, typically damages are lower because the defendant does not have to compensate the deceased for future care, although the family can sue for loss of dependency.

    I get what everyone is saying about the waiver, but it is tough to defend a case solely on the basis of a waiver. The question the court will ask in deciding this is essentially, "did the plaintiff know he was bargaining away his right to sue when he signed the waiver", and typically the court answers this question "no".

    For me, I can see why people are upset about this suit and I am too - it is a bad thing for cycling in Ontario. On the other hand, this guy's family's gotta eat and pay the mortgage etc. If he cannot provide for his family because his injuries render him unable to work, then it is understandable that he seek compensation through the courts, if he can prove anyone negligent.

    The more interesting question in my mind, is whether Mr. Uy can prove negligence on the part of HCC and OCA by establishing that the way the race was organized made it inherently dangerous or caused the crash, rather than this crash being caused by someone (including Mr. Uy) not holding his line, locking handlebars with someone, or making an unexpected move in the middle of the peloton. If he can't prove that, he won't get a dime.
  • 03-11-2011
    Unglued
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by osokolo
    I wonder how much input his insurance company had on this lawsuit...

    Probably none. If he is eligible for disability, he may have to pay the disability insurer back out of his settlement, depending on what his policy says, but the decision to sue was almost certainly that of Mr. Uy and Ms. James alone. That said, it wouldn't surprise me if paralegals were dropping off firm brochures and business cards off to him even before he woke up from his coma, knowing that they will likely get 1/3 of any damages they recover on his behalf. I expect that was what planted the seed...
  • 03-11-2011
    Unglued
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by KINBOY
    Its sad but a lot of the waivers mean little in the overall situation as most companies will pay out as a drawn out lawsuit will cost a lot. The fact they are asking that amount leads me to believe it will go to court. If the club and OCA win it would be good to set a precedent in Ontario, if they lose it could be disastrous to the sport and similar ones.
    He knew the risks, this is what we need inherent liability for, you sign on, you participate, you know the risks unless negligence can be proven.


    97% of lawsuits settle out of court, within the policy limits of the insurance company that insures the defendant, with a confidentiality agreement being part of the deal in a high-profile suit like this. The only way that this suit will affect cycling in Ontario is to drive up club premiums and make registration and racing permits more expensive for the rest of us. In some cases prohibitively expensive as may be happening in Toronto area cyclocross in the coming season.

    It sucks, but you might look at having to pay increased race registration fees differently if you were the one in the crash and needed to seek compensation to support yourself and your family. I hope its a situation that no-one reading this thread ever finds themselves in.
  • 03-11-2011
    Enduramil
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Unglued
    If someone is killed, typically damages are lower because the defendant does not have to compensate the deceased for future care, although the family can sue for loss of dependency.

    I can work with that.:D

    And yes I'm :devil:
  • 03-11-2011
    Unglued
    Those of you who know me know that I am a litigation lawyer. My job is to defend lawsuits like this one. There are a few misconceptions about the way that the judicial system works in this thread, which I hope I can clear up.

    Insurance companies do settle a lot of a time, but only if the risk of losing in court or setting a bad precedent means that a compromise (and a settlement always is a compromise on both sides) makes sense. Insurers, in my experience, do not just roll over and pay out on claims to make them go away. In a case like this, the defence of the suit will be referred to a senior lawyer, reporting to a very senior claims examiner. These are usually very smart people who approach these claims in a very rational way. If the plaintiff cannot prove liability, the matter will either go to trial, or settle for a fraction of Mr. Uy's full damages.

    No matter what happens, this case will probably go on for years. Brain injuries take a long time to heal, and it will probably be 2-3 years until Mr. Uy reaches maximum medical recovery and we can expect both sides to take a "wait and see" attitude to see how his recovery goes. You would be amazed at how resilient people are, and how far they can come with the proper treatment. In this regard, I wish Mr. Uy all the best, and the fact that he is young, and obviously fit and active, is a huge plus for him in this regard.

    Typically, in a case like this, the defendant will elect to have the matter tried before a jury, not a judge. Juries tend to use common sense, and in this case, the defence will be able to appeal to the jury's common sense by explaining that road racing is dangerous (hey, everyone has some idea that there are major crashes on the Tour every year and those guys are pros) and that sometimes, horrible things happen in dangerous sports. I don't know anything about the intricacies of the case but I would imagine that the defence will have lots to work with here, especially if they can find the people around Mr. Uy in the peloton at the time of the crash (not too difficult to do given that there will be records of everyone in the race).

    And one last thing - this is not a lottery ticket. Lawsuits are very difficult on plaintiffs. Mr. Uy and his family's entire life will be put under the microscope and he will have to attend a number of medical assessments for both sides. They will probably have investigators follow them and conduct surveillance, all while he is convalescing from what appears to be a moderately serious traumatic brain injury. I would not wish what he will have to go through in this suit on my worse enemy, let alone a fellow cyclist. Trust me, there will be no winners or losers in this suit.
  • 03-11-2011
    mtbmeister
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Unglued
    Trust me, there will be no winners or losers in this suit.

    Great analogy Barry. Really put's things in perspective. And you've hit it on the head, no pun intended, no one wins or loses here. It's just an ugly situation for everyone.
  • 03-11-2011
    rkj__
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Unglued
    No matter what happens, this case will probably go on for years. Brain injuries take a long time to heal, and it will probably be 2-3 years until Mr. Uy reaches maximum medical recovery and we can expect both sides to take a "wait and see" attitude to see how his recovery goes.

    True. As a high profile example, the seventh anniversary of the Todd Bertuzzi / Steeve Moore incident has recently passed. That case is still far from settled.
  • 03-11-2011
    Enduramil
    <iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/kslHr7_9Zac" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
  • 03-11-2011
    electrik
    teebor, he may not even be able to take "adult" responsibility for his actions as a consequence of a brain injury. So lay off, you're still sitting there with your brain working as well as it ever did and throwing stones at the guy. You from Texas?

    Race promoters actually do have a responsibility to the participants and this wasn't some alley cat race.

    I find it disgusting, $20 million, maybe it's more about revenge. What is basically equally disgusting is people's immediate dismissal of any of his rights to recompense. I know some of you would turn hypocrite if you couldn't tie your own shoelaces after some middle aged grom clipped your front wheel. How do you even keep a real job down after that? Get real.



    On a side note, maybe i am being angry because i ate **** on an icy path today(why i took off the studs who knows), nothing broken, but maybe i should lawyer up and get the city. Pass the ibuprofen.
  • 03-11-2011
    osokolo
    sorry Barry,
    I know you are looking at this case from the law books angle, but I have lost much of my faith in our legal system, since they started releasing drug dealers on technicalities of their arrests.

    In this case, I feel sorry for this guy, however, HE DECIDED and VOLUNTARILY signed up for this event. He did sign a waiver which states pretty clearly that he is waiving any right to sue the organizer etc... I am sure HE KNEW what he was signing. I am sure HE KNEW this sport was dangerous.

    KNOWING all that - he still engaged voluntarily in this exercise. Tough luck. Someone may have hit the rock and lost balance causing a chain reaction. Why is organizer responsible for the rock? Or anything else?

    I simply can not accept the notion that we can blame someone else for our decisions and errors.

    And I disagree that there are no winners and losers. Cycling may lose way more than this person may win...

    If one is not capable of accepting consequences of his or her own decisions - tough luck.

    Unfortunately - nanny state and our self-defeating legal system encourage this kind of behaviour/thinking...

    Nothing personal Barry, you know I love you... I know you have to pay your bills... For your BMW, many fine bikes, bling suits... ;)
  • 03-12-2011
    Enduramil
    Just a thought.

    This is a public access forum. So I don't doubt for one second anyone has been checking this section for any info about this race. And any other potential dirt they might use.

    There is something I would love to say but for this very reason I will not.
  • 03-12-2011
    Unglued
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by osokolo
    sorry Barry,
    I know you are looking at this case from the law books angle, but I have lost much of my faith in our legal system, since they started releasing drug dealers on technicalities of their arrests.

    In this case, I feel sorry for this guy, however, HE DECIDED and VOLUNTARILY signed up for this event. He did sign a waiver which states pretty clearly that he is waiving any right to sue the organizer etc... I am sure HE KNEW what he was signing. I am sure HE KNEW this sport was dangerous.

    KNOWING all that - he still engaged voluntarily in this exercise. Tough luck. Someone may have hit the rock and lost balance causing a chain reaction. Why is organizer responsible for the rock? Or anything else?

    I simply can not accept the notion that we can blame someone else for our decisions and errors.

    And I disagree that there are no winners and losers. Cycling may lose way more than this person may win...

    If one is not capable of accepting consequences of his or her own decisions - tough luck.

    Unfortunately - nanny state and our self-defeating legal system encourage this kind of behaviour/thinking...

    Nothing personal Barry, you know I love you... I know you have to pay your bills... For your BMW, many fine bikes, bling suits... ;)


    I look at everything from a law books angle. You don't really switch it off when you leave the office for the day. Sometimes its a good thing, but sometimes it sucks...
  • 03-12-2011
    electrik
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by osokolo
    sorry Barry,
    ...
    In this case, I feel sorry for this guy, however, HE DECIDED and VOLUNTARILY signed up for this event. He did sign a waiver which states pretty clearly that he is waiving any right to sue the organizer etc... I am sure HE KNEW what he was signing. I am sure HE KNEW this sport was dangerous.

    KNOWING all that - he still engaged voluntarily in this exercise. Tough luck. Someone may have hit the rock and lost balance causing a chain reaction. Why is organizer responsible for the rock? Or anything else?
    ...

    Actually, that is what you're telling us you think he knew. Hope you know the difference... here are the points put forward by his council.

    the two organizations permitted an unreasonable amount of participants in the race such that the race course posed a danger to due to congestion;

    failed to properly plan and organize the race course when they knew or ought to have known that the race course posed a risk of injury or harm to participants;

    failed to implement and adhere to international standards for the organization and operation of the race;

    failed to warn or adequately warn Christopher Uy of the potential danger of participating in the race;

    Yes, even a rock strewn mysteriously in the middle of a certain section of Ontario singletrack is enough to get the lawyers out... Though that issue was settled for less than originally requested after half a decade, but then that wasn't a race either? We don't even know why the accident happened, which is important... maybe it was a clown jumping out of the ditch? :eekster:
  • 03-12-2011
    Unglued
    The argument that the plaintiff would advance based upon the allegations in the claim is that he accepted the usual risks of doing a road race, but was entitled to expect that the race was organized to make it as safe as possible, having regard from these usual risks. If there was something about the way that the race was organized that made it inherently more dangerous than it could have been, then no waiver will help the defendants.

    Of course, the trick will be proving that the race was inherently more dangerous than the typical road race in Ontario because of the way it was organized (number of starts, number of participants, not having a closed course) and not because of a rock on the road, the pack bunching up, or something else that goes with the territory in any other road race. That doesn't strike me as particularly easy to do for the plaintiff.

    So what I am saying is that the law takes into account that people should have personal responsibility when engaging in potentially risky activities, but are entitled to expect that these activities are organized in a safe manner.
  • 03-12-2011
    garage monster
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by electrik
    On a side note, maybe i am being angry because i ate **** on an icy path today(why i took off the studs who knows), nothing broken, but maybe i should lawyer up and get the city. Pass the ibuprofen.

    I went down on an icy bridge on Monday too. Whacked my knee and bent my self-esteem! Ouchy! :eek:
  • 03-12-2011
    osokolo
    quite appropriate answer from an intelectual giant that you are... mr electrician
    I am sure you sign all documents without reading them at all. You are probably signing cheques witout checking the amount, or you are signing them blank.

    If all of the bellow is true - why did Mr Uy voluntarily accept the participation?

    You also think that Pacioretty should sue NHL for installing the boards in such a way that he cracked his fourth vertebrae after the illegal hit.

    We are still waiting for Moore to sue NHL for his premature career end, I guess.

    Casartelli's lawyers are still preparing a lawsuit against TdeF since 1995. Doesn't matter that he didn't wear a helmet. The organizer is obviously at fault as they designed the course which included some concrete blocks on the side of the road.

    Don't have time to list all the glaring examples, and there are few more...

    Where did a personal responsibility stop? Did you yet sue Black&Decker for burning yourself on their iron, because they did not put a label "might burn you if touched while hot" label on the packaging?

    It is pieceworks like you, Mr Uy and similar characters that make the living for the rest of the normal population increasingly difficult - in this regard. With a lot of help of our and USA legal systems. This crap doesn't happen in Europe, not nearly to this extent.

    Anyway, I still wish Mr Uy recovers fully.

    Though, now that you educated me, I think I am going to sue TRCA, MRCA, PRCA, KRCA, OCA, NHL, Dalton and his family (still working on the list) for cracking few facial bones when I deathkissed the tree at the Don. I know that tree was not supposed to be there. I mean, how can a tree be in my riding path? Why didn't OCA protect me by removing that tree before I had to hit it without any error on my part...

    Have a great day!

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by electrik
    Actually, that is what you're telling us you think he knew. Hope you know the difference... here are the points put forward by his council.

    the two organizations permitted an unreasonable amount of participants in the race such that the race course posed a danger to due to congestion;

    failed to properly plan and organize the race course when they knew or ought to have known that the race course posed a risk of injury or harm to participants;

    failed to implement and adhere to international standards for the organization and operation of the race;

    failed to warn or adequately warn Christopher Uy of the potential danger of participating in the race;

    Yes, even a rock strewn mysteriously in the middle of a certain section of Ontario singletrack is enough to get the lawyers out... Though that issue was settled for less than originally requested after half a decade, but then that wasn't a race either? We don't even know why the accident happened, which is important... maybe it was a clown jumping out of the ditch? :eekster:

  • 03-12-2011
    Kay.
    What if any are the recent precedents in the usa?
  • 03-12-2011
    mtbmeister
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by osokolo
    I am sure you sign all documents without reading them at all. You are probably signing cheques witout checking the amount, or you are signing them blank.

    If all of the bellow is true - why did Mr Uy voluntarily accept the participation?

    You also think that Pacioretty should sue NHL for installing the boards in such a way that he cracked his fourth vertebrae after the illegal hit.

    We are still waiting for Moore to sue NHL for his premature career end, I guess.

    Casartelli's lawyers are still preparing a lawsuit against TdeF since 1995. Doesn't matter that he didn't wear a helmet. The organizer is obviously at fault as they designed the course which included some concrete blocks on the side of the road.

    Don't have time to list all the glaring examples, and there are few more...

    Where did a personal responsibility stop? Did you yet sue Black&Decker for burning yourself on their iron, because they did not put a label "might burn you if touched while hot" label on the packaging?

    It is pieceworks like you, Mr Uy and similar characters that make the living for the rest of the normal population increasingly difficult - in this regard. With a lot of help of our and USA legal systems. This crap doesn't happen in Europe, not nearly to this extent.

    Anyway, I still wish Mr Uy recovers fully.

    Though, now that you educated me, I think I am going to sue TRCA, MRCA, PRCA, KRCA, OCA, NHL, Dalton and his family (still working on the list) for cracking few facial bones when I deathkissed the tree at the Don. I know that tree was not supposed to be there. I mean, how can a tree be in my riding path? Why didn't OCA protect me by removing that tree before I had to hit it without any error on my part...

    Have a great day!

    Oggie, Barry is not disputing the personal responsilbilty of this issue, but moreso explaining the legal angles that both sides might take. Are you just board because you have nothing to argue with Singlesprocket about? ;)
  • 03-12-2011
    teebor76xc
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by electrik
    teebor, he may not even be able to take "adult" responsibility for his actions as a consequence of a brain injury. So lay off, you're still sitting there with your brain working as well as it ever did and throwing stones at the guy. You from Texas?

    Race promoters actually do have a responsibility to the participants and this wasn't some alley cat race.

    I find it disgusting, $20 million, maybe it's more about revenge. What is basically equally disgusting is people's immediate dismissal of any of his rights to recompense. I know some of you would turn hypocrite if you couldn't tie your own shoelaces after some middle aged grom clipped your front wheel. How do you even keep a real job down after that? Get real.



    On a side note, maybe i am being angry because i ate **** on an icy path today(why i took off the studs who knows), nothing broken, but maybe i should lawyer up and get the city. Pass the ibuprofen.

    You must have went down pretty hard, stick with the studded tires.:nono:
  • 03-12-2011
    osokolo
    Neil, the response that you are quoting was directed at this electrician character, not Barry...

    Barry and I have a good understanding - I believe, which I summarized in my response directly to Barry from yesterday...

    Who is "single-what"? Not sure who you are referring to...
  • 03-12-2011
    mtbmeister
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by osokolo
    Neil, the response that you are quoting was directed at this electrician character, not Barry...

    Barry and I have a good understanding - I believe, which I summarized in my response directly to Barry from yesterday...

    Who is "single-what"? Not sure who you are referring to...

    Just having a little fun!
  • 03-12-2011
    Unglued
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Kay.
    What if any are the recent precedents in the usa?


    Not helpful to the defendants, but not binding on the Canadian courts, which have their own body of jurisprudence on this issue, along the lines of my earlier posts.
  • 03-12-2011
    Enduramil
    Since Uy needs money for for his future. May I suggest he take some of this money and give it to groups and facilities that help those who have had brain injury.

    As this story shows,

    http://www.thestar.com/sports/articl...or-injured-son

    There will be a point in his future where there will be no girlfriend, wife, or parents to take care of his needs.
  • 03-12-2011
    electrik
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by teebor76xc
    You must have went down pretty hard, stick with the studded tires.:nono:

    Yup, 10meters of sq black ice on a downhill switchback after working 12hrs.
  • 03-12-2011
    Enduramil
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by electrik
    Yup, 10meters of sq black ice on a downhill switchback after working 12hrs.


    Frak , you cyclists are wimps in winter. This is a crash,

    <iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/_JuJQwOsaG4" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
  • 03-12-2011
    electrik
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by osokolo
    I am sure you sign all documents without reading them at all. You are probably signing cheques witout checking the amount, or you are signing them blank.

    If all of the bellow is true - why did Mr Uy voluntarily accept the participation?

    You also think that Pacioretty should sue NHL for installing the boards in such a way that he cracked his fourth vertebrae after the illegal hit.

    We are still waiting for Moore to sue NHL for his premature career end, I guess.

    Casartelli's lawyers are still preparing a lawsuit against TdeF since 1995. Doesn't matter that he didn't wear a helmet. The organizer is obviously at fault as they designed the course which included some concrete blocks on the side of the road.

    Don't have time to list all the glaring examples, and there are few more...

    Where did a personal responsibility stop? Did you yet sue Black&Decker for burning yourself on their iron, because they did not put a label "might burn you if touched while hot" label on the packaging?

    It is pieceworks like you, Mr Uy and similar characters that make the living for the rest of the normal population increasingly difficult - in this regard. With a lot of help of our and USA legal systems. This crap doesn't happen in Europe, not nearly to this extent.

    Anyway, I still wish Mr Uy recovers fully.

    Though, now that you educated me, I think I am going to sue TRCA, MRCA, PRCA, KRCA, OCA, NHL, Dalton and his family (still working on the list) for cracking few facial bones when I deathkissed the tree at the Don. I know that tree was not supposed to be there. I mean, how can a tree be in my riding path? Why didn't OCA protect me by removing that tree before I had to hit it without any error on my part...

    Have a great day!

    Sure, sure, and you forgot the woman who burned her groin with scalding hot mcdonalds coffee... Did you fully read the EUL for this website, windows, microsoft word... do you have a contract in writing from your cellular provider? Point is, there are lots of assumptions made. I haven't sued anybody... litigation is not accessible to the majority of Canadians. So, FYI, it's mostly those namby pamby types with really deep pockets or corporations pushing everybody around in the courts.

    I'm sure NHL, OCA, TRCA ... "They knew what they signed up for."

    Did they? A tree got you, but what if it was something like an unsigned 4ft ditch or 6"deep tire tracks allover the end of a decline.

    I am also with you here that people DO need responsibility, all those kids hucking themselves off 6-12ft double black diamond stunts and getting choppered out... is that the resort's fault? Probably not.... but they remove the stunt and we're all bubble wrapped according to the needs of the lcd.
  • 03-12-2011
    electrik
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Enduramil
    Frak , you cyclists are wimps in winter. This is a crash,

    Sweet jebus... that reminds me of the suit against VANOC for the death of the polish(?) luger.

    Better read the back of those life tickets!
  • 03-12-2011
    Enduramil
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by electrik
    Sweet jebus... that reminds me of the suit against VANOC for the death of the polish(?) luger.

    Better read the back of those life tickets!


    To put in perspective the snow he crashed on is as hard as the QEW. And that was at 130kmh.
  • 03-12-2011
    osokolo
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by electrik

    Did they? A tree got you, but what if it was something like an unsigned 4ft ditch or 6"deep tire tracks allover the end of a decline.

    Dude - USE AT YOUR OWN RISK means go as slow as necessary and as fast as possible. If you hit that ditch at APPROPRIATE speed - nothing happens. Hit it with too much speed - and you may eat $hit.

    It is not ditch's fault if you eat $hit. Ride responsibly and you are fine. If Mr. Uy was at the back of the pack, or at the front of the pack - he would have been fine. He and everyone else should ride according to his abilities and skills. Even then $hit happens, but that is the nature of the beast. Own your decisions.

    Quote:

    I am also with you here that people DO need responsibility, all those kids hucking themselves off 6-12ft double black diamond stunts and getting choppered out... is that the resort's fault? Probably not.... but they remove the stunt and we're all bubble wrapped according to the needs of the lcd.
    That sounds too reasonable for you to say. Did you copy/paste it from somewhere else or you indeed have been polishing your presentation skills?

    Either way, you are getting dangerously close for me to agree with you on something. I can't handle that truth right now... Too much.
  • 03-12-2011
    electrik
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by osokolo
    Dude - USE AT YOUR OWN RISK means go as slow as necessary and as fast as possible. If you hit that ditch at APPROPRIATE speed - nothing happens. Hit it with too much speed - and you may eat $hit.

    It is not ditch's fault if you eat $hit. Ride responsibly and you are fine. If Mr. Uy was at the back of the pack, or at the front of the pack - he would have been fine. He and everyone else should ride according to his abilities and skills. Even then $hit happens, but that is the nature of the beast. Own your decisions.



    That sounds too reasonable for you to say. Did you copy/paste it from somewhere else or you indeed have been polishing your presentation skills?

    Either way, you are getting dangerously close for me to agree with you on something. I can't handle that truth right now... Too much.

    Yeah, it does happen... the point of the example was just to try and illustrate that "use at your own risk" isn't a blank check for irresponsibility on behalf of the race organizer or property owners. It's just a sheet of paper, which is the problem. People will interpret it different ways...

    Look at races with mass starts!
    <iframe title="YouTube video player" width="640" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/w51qZnOm1pA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
    I wonder how large and verbose that waiver is
  • 03-12-2011
    osokolo
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by electrik
    Yeah, it does happen... the point of the example was just to try and illustrate that "use at your own risk" isn't a blank check for irresponsibility on behalf of the race organizer or property owners. It's just a sheet of paper, which is the problem. People will interpret it different ways...

    I was considering this race last year. I DECIDED not to race it, based on the fact that it was the first race of the season, the weather was glorious and that was a recipe for a huge field... $hit happens when a bunch of M3 racer wannabes do stupid things racing in the group...

    Too much testosterone, carbon and titanium, not enough skills. Thank you very much.

    Went for a multi-hour MTB adventure.

    Good decision!

    That is the difference. Not to say that Lance wouldn't eat $hit much the same as Mr Uy, had it happened to Lance, but mitigating risk always pays back.

    Every sprint at TdeF was a potential for a disaster - and many times it happened. That is part of the sport of cycling. Those pros hit the asphalt at higher speeds than Mr Uy, but the difference is they KNOW how to fall down and minimize the risk of serious injury.

    To each his/her own, just own up your decisions. Forget the waiver. Should organizer have used QEW for this race - to accommodate the numbers?

    Naah... Race responsibly. Keep in mind that if you crash - it may hurt. Race accordingly.

    What is so difficult to understand?