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  1. #1
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    We the people ... high pedaling

    i'm not talking about reffer here... though lots of people do it... it's about your pedal position. though nothing new (trials, etc)... it's about keeping your pedals as high as you can to keep from getting snagged or hitting rocks, roots, etc... good technique, also gets you in position to hop off jumps, drops, etc... you can also drop the outside pedal for berms. any input about this technique is most welcome.
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  2. #2
    namagomi
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    I just had a set of luggage wheels welded onto the outsides of my pedals instead.

  3. #3
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    lol, teflon skids plates on the bottoms
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  4. #4
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    I like smacking the ground with my pedals. If you don't give the trail a good kick once in a while, it starts to get cocky.
    When under pressure, your level of performance will sink to your level of preparation.

  5. #5
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    Ah - SO you're the guy who is going to get us mobbed by enviro-hippies for scratching the rocks at Hilton falls... Please invest in teflon skid plates and remember SAVE THE ROCKS.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket View Post
    it's about keeping your pedals as high as you can to keep from getting snagged or hitting rocks, roots, etc... any input about this technique is most welcome.
    When riding rocky or technical things like Mohawk Agreement Forest or some of the rooty climbs you find anywhere, I often ratchet my pedals to avoid striking a rock or root rather than pedalling all the way around. By ratcheting, I avoid having either pedal close to the obstacle and my feet are in the optimum position to hop the back wheel if the bike needs a little extra to get through. Once I pass the difficulty, I resume normal pedalling.

  7. #7
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    when encountering a technical section I simply spin madly with hopes that i'll get thru...

    50% of the time my strategy is effective and I continue along merrily....

    the other 50% involves me pinging sideways off trail into trees/hill/shrubbery....cursing loudly...

    I'm gonna go with raganwald's ratcheting approach from now on...

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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket View Post
    i'm not talking about reffer here... though lots of people do it... it's about your pedal position. though nothing new (trials, etc)... it's about keeping your pedals as high as you can to keep from getting snagged or hitting rocks, roots, etc... good technique, also gets you in position to hop off jumps, drops, etc... you can also drop the outside pedal for berms. any input about this technique is most welcome.
    Basically you are referring to a level pedal stance. Never heard it called "high pedaling", it's not really a high position as if one foot is high the other will be low.

    Going to quote Darren Butler of Endless Biking re dropping outside pedal in berms.

    It is unnecessary to drop an outside foot in a berm as your bike is perpendicular to the terrain, so you have lots of support.

    As an additional tool in your toolbox, you can drop an outside foot to gain additional traction and/or clearance but is not required in this situation (berms), leaving you set up for jumps, rollers, drops on a pumping and playful trail like this etc.

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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by shirk View Post
    Going to quote Darren Butler of Endless Biking re dropping outside pedal in berms.
    I've spent a lot of time on the pump tracks at Joyride experimenting with pedal position in the berms and I've decided that I prefer going in level. I have no idea if it's faster or whatever but I like it better even if it does seem somewhat counter-intuitive.

    Also, +1 for ratcheting, an indespensible single-speeding tool.
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  10. #10
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    worst feeling in riding is keeping both pedals level through

    roots or rocks, and then mashing down one pedal and hitting a rock or root that throws the bike up or sideways.
    I think level through berms, but on serious flat turns, I drop the outside pedal, and put weight on the inside grip, this helps keep from sliding out.
    Last edited by ol-crank; 08-22-2011 at 01:14 PM.

  11. #11
    namagomi
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    Since a pump track is bermed you can keep the cranks level. In fact you should.

    Cornering the bike out on the flats or very less bermed typically means more bike lean than body and you should be dropping a pedal.

    A lot depends on your bottom bracket height also.

  12. #12
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    Agreed with the racheting, berms, flat turns. Additionally, in really tight switchbacks, level pedals can be helpful.

    It's funny what you take for granted. It's not until you see someone doing it "wrong" (e.g. one pedal dropped over rollers or jumps or the inside pedal down in a turn) that you realise it isn't just intuitive.

  13. #13
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    Also a fan of racheting, I found myself using this technique on one particularly weird climb multiple times yesterday. other than that it is usually not a question for me of whether or not to level the pedals, more of which foot will lead while level.. Later on in long rides I find myself using the dropped outside foot method naturally but always figure this is more due to being worn out than any other type of plan.

  14. #14
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    One suggestion in regards to the horizontal cranks in turns and such from a coaching perspective.

    We all have that one foot we like forward all the time. It's our comfort zone. Take time and get used to having the opposite foot forward. You wil still favour your strong foot but by learning this it willadd more to your riding. Since I took the time to learn this am able to get through sections when I don't have time to ratchet or anything.

    Looking back I wished I had taken the time to learn this. I wish I had caught the lesson from Jaques years ago. But wasn't paying full attention like any kid at the time.

  15. #15
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    look what they suggest for dirt bikes... throw that in side foot forward to transfer weight to the front end. once out of the turn apply power (pedaling)

    <div><object type="application/x-shockwave-flash" data="http://cdn-i.dmdentertainment.com/DMVideoPlayer/player.swf" id="player" height="349" width="620" ><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always" /><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true" /><param name="movie" value="http://cdn-i.dmdentertainment.com/DMVideoPlayer/player.swf" /><param name="flashVars" value="skin=http%3A//cdn-i.dmdentertainment.com/DMVideoPlayer/playerskin.swf&source=http%3A//cdn-www.expertvillage.com/flash/tight-turns-motocross.flv&demand_content_id=b27a4fdf-035b-4c13-bf78-d9bca7a6bf57&KEY=DemandMediaehow&demand_scat=Sport s&demand_video_timeout=10&demand_rvdisplaymode=0&d emand_studio_id=b27a4fdf-035b-4c13-bf78-d9bca7a6bf57&ID=b27a4fdf-035b-4c13-bf78-d9bca7a6bf57&demand_sscat=Motocross&demand_uihex=f fffff&purl=http%3A//cdn-i.dmdentertainment.com/DMVideoPlayer/player.swf&height=43&demand_iconurl=http%3A//v5-static.ehowcdn.com/media/video_player_icon.png&demand_related=3&sitename=eh ow&demand_share=facebook%2Ctwitter%2Cemail&demand_ icontext=Trusted%20advice%20for%20the%20curious%20 life.%20Check%20out%20millions%20of%20articles%20a nd%20videos%20on%20topics%20that%20are%20important %20to%20you%20across%20Home%2C%20Family%2C%20Money %2C%20Food%2C%20Style%2C%20Health%20and%20more%21& KEYWORDS=leg%2Cmotocross%2Ctransferring%2Cturns%2C weight&demand_site_id=EHWC&taboolaId=ehow&demand_i conlink=http%3A//www.ehow.com/&CATEGORIES=Sports%20%26%20Fitness&demand_fb=false &video_title=How%20to%20Master%20Tight%20Turns%20i n%20Motocross%20Racing&done=true&demand_related_fe ed=http%3A//www.ehow.com/services/video/series.xml&DESC=Tips%20for%20turning%20in%20motocr oss%20race.%20Learn%20how%20to%20perfect%20tight%2 0motocross%20turns%2C%20in%20this%20free%20video.& demand_page_url=http%3A//www.ehow.com/video_2354867_master-tight-turns-motocross-racing.html&demand_email_url=http%3A//www.ehow.com/services/video/email.html&ADAPTAG=leg%2Cmotocross%2Ctransferring% 2Cturns%2Cweight&sourcehd=&comscore_c3=7290850&dem and_ehow_videoid=29161&COMPANION_DIV_ID=companionA d300x250&comscore_c4=7385247&demand_continuous_pla y=1&overlayAdPartner=ScanScout&v=4.0.1.i&demand_hd =0&CONTEXT=%7B%22scat%22%3A%22Sports%22%2C%22sscat %22%3A%22Motocross%22%7D&ss_progId=4d94c0888205a&d emand_autoplay=0&TITLE=How%20to%20Master%20Tight%2 0Turns%20in%20Motocross%20Racing&cp=1&demand_conte nt_sourcekey=http%3A//www.ehow.com&adPartner=Adap&demand_cat=Sports%20%2 6%20Fitness&wa_vemb=1" /></object><br><a href="http://www.ehow.com/video_2354867_master-tight-turns-motocross-racing.html">How to Master Tight Turns in Motocross Racing</a> -- powered by ehow</div>

    some more good stuff here

    Flow Like A Pro: Develop Your Downhill Skills Wth Chris Kovarik - BikeRadar

    i always bring up my inside pedal, though it depends on the berms. the more gnar (rocks etc) in the berm the higher the pedal goes. of course my inside foot is forward
    Last edited by singlesprocket; 08-22-2011 at 05:54 PM.
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  16. #16
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    I learned to downhill ski this past winter. I actually learned very quickly because many of the concepts were similar and easily transferrable from mountain biking (My ski instructor was a experienced mountain biker).

    One of the techniques to learn to bring the skiis parallel are are similar to this pedal position: My interpretation is (depending on the turn) The inside foot or unweighted foot is "up" and this is the same technique I've been using on big berms while down hilling. It is easier to do than to explain in words however the technique works.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyclelicious View Post
    I learned to downhill ski this past winter. I actually learned very quickly because many of the concepts were similar and easily transferrable from mountain biking (My ski instructor was a experienced mountain biker).

    One of the techniques to learn to bring the skiis parallel are are similar to this pedal position: My interpretation is (depending on the turn) The inside foot or unweighted foot is "up" and this is the same technique I've been using on big berms while down hilling. It is easier to do than to explain in words however the technique works.
    Some what. Though the real reason skiers learn to lift the inside leg is to learn to shift their body weight over the outside ski. As without the body the outside inner edge of the ski will not bite and cause a turn.

    To truly ski downhill well is all about shifting one's body weight. I find there is less of this on a bike then when I trained for GS.

    Sheesh... I haven't talked ski race technical in over a decade.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post
    Some what. Though the real reason skiers learn to lift the inside leg is to learn to shift their body weight over the outside ski. As without the body the outside inner edge of the ski will not bite and cause a turn.

    To truly ski downhill well is all about shifting one's body weight. I find there is less of this on a bike then when I trained for GS.

    Sheesh... I haven't talked ski race technical in over a decade.
    Yes I'm finding lots of similarities between biking (espially dh) and dh skiing and shifting body weight is significant comparison (I didn't include that in my simple description) However I find with dh and skiing there is alot of body weight shifting. When riding high on the berms on the dh, I find that the more I can shift my weight forward, the smoother and faster I go through the berm. But I also notice that my body wants to naturally pull back over the seat so it takes techique, and strength to pull my weight forward.

    PS I love the dh skiing and hope to keep it going this winter

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyclelicious View Post
    Yes I'm finding lots of similarities between biking (espially dh) and dh skiing and shifting body weight is significant comparison (I didn't include that in my simple description) However I find with dh and skiing there is alot of body weight shifting. When riding high on the berms on the dh, I find that the more I can shift my weight forward, the smoother and faster I go through the berm. But I also notice that my body wants to naturally pull back over the seat so it takes techique, and strength to pull my weight forward.

    PS I love the dh skiing and hope to keep it going this winter
    Great example, Marc Giradeli circa 1980's winning run.

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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket View Post
    i always bring up my inside pedal, though it depends on the berms. the more gnar (rocks etc) in the berm the higher the pedal goes. of course my inside foot is forward
    I figured I'd go looking around for pictures of one of my favourite riders for guidance: Steve Peat. It seems that there's no definitive answer. Sometimes, inside pedal goes up, sometimes, not.

    Witness:

    Foot goes up:


    Foot goes down:
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  21. #21
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    step 1: gain stupid speed before rocks
    step 2: plow through
    step 3: pedal afterwards
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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by saturnine View Post
    step 1: gain stupid speed before rocks
    step 2: plow through
    step 3: pedal afterwards
    Step 4. pay some guy like me to fix your rims.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster View Post
    I figured I'd go looking around for pictures of one of my favourite riders for guidance: Steve Peat. It seems that there's no definitive answer. Sometimes, inside pedal goes up, sometimes, not.

    Witness:

    Foot goes up:


    Foot goes down:
    it seems that he keeps his inside foot forward though, but adjusts the pedals for clearence
    in the berms. in the first pic if the pedals where level he would catch it. in the second pic there seems to be rocks on the high side, keeps the pedal high enough to clear...
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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket View Post
    it seems that he keeps his inside foot forward though, but adjusts the pedals for clearence
    in the berms
    I actually didn't look at enough pics to see if he switches lead foot. Interesting thought though and it wouldn't surprise me at all if someone who can ride at his level would do that instinctively.
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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster View Post
    I actually didn't look at enough pics to see if he switches lead foot. Interesting thought though and it wouldn't surprise me at all if someone who can ride at his level would do that instinctively.
    you want to get that weight over that front wheel to track. keeping the inside foot forward left or right (depends on the direction of the berm) helps that. as well as pulling yourself and getting your head forward.
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  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post
    Step 4. pay some guy like me to fix your rims.
    never
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  27. #27
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    I am a big fan of ratcheting as well. I learned to do it riding trials. It is a really good technique over skinnies as well. I got the Hadley hub with lots of engagement for this reason. I find that ratcheting a quarter turn at at time lets you keep the body more quiet over really technical skinny stuff. Over obstacles a good ratchet and surge can get you over things at slower speeds and allows you to change directions if needed. Over rock gardens depending on the size and configuration, it can save your pedals. There are times for a high cadence and plowing through though. Depends on the lay of the land. At Joyride, I always keep level pedals. I tried the pump track with feet up or down, but level feels more comfortable. In trials everyone tells you to always come back to neutral position (level pedals), specially on natural terrain. It keeps you centered on the bike and ready for the next move.

  28. #28
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    Saturnine's "just give 'er" theory will work ok in some rodk gardens, but it's better to be able to ride them slowly and keep momentum by pedalling and ratcheting. The coasting technique doesn't work very well for uphill rock gardens or twisty stuff or long extended rock gardens.
    Being able to ride slowly through them with control will take away a lot of the fear of rock gardens that some people have

  29. #29
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    I'm a 1 foot forward kinda guy I guess, over things, on skinnes, drops, fast descents and corning left foot forward for me anything else would be goofy.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Near north View Post
    left foot forward for me anything else would be goofy.
    literally
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  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by saturnine View Post
    literally
    didn't Hans used to call it chocolate foot forward

  32. #32
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    Momentum is your friend keep the pedals level, and flow and pump as much as you can. Remember that anything with a down slope you can gain speed off of.
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  33. #33
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    Haven't heard Hans Rey mentioned for a while. Used to watch his training videos back in the nineties. I remember the chocolate foot forward thing (also for snowboarding). I remember a guy a the ski shop asking me which my chocolate foot was, and when he saw my confusion, pushed me in the back..... the first foot out to catch yourself will be your chocolate foot, he explained. I think that this phrase just means having your good foot forward and with level cranks. Having one side down shifts all your weight onto one leg, it also tends to put your weight forward (not desirable in an incline position). As a beginner in trials, I have learnt that you have to keep you cranks level all the time unless you are pedal kicking or pedaling/ratcheting. If you are in a position which your bike is at a weird angle, you adjust your pedals to be parallel to the incline. In essence you will have level pedals with reference to the angle of your bike. This will be the same whether leaning way forward or on your back wheel. Having your pedals level also allows you to adjust your body position within your cockpit, back and forth, up and down.

    Found this article that talks about this a bit:

    Downhill Mountain Biking Tips: The Importance of the Chocolate Foot and Level Cranks, Page 2 of 2 - Associated Content from Yahoo! - associatedcontent.com

  34. #34
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    I was playing with this yesterday and found I did tend to keep left foot more forward but like water skiing I turn one way better than the other smoother and harder. also found no forward backward weight shift with pedals level, it required equal force to keep them level so force was balanced in the bottom bracket. Side to side could be done by lowering the outside pedal and weighting it. frontward backward was bars and seat. That's just what I found playing around??

  35. #35
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    Right foot forward.
    But then when I used to skate - I was Right foot forward as well - aka "goofy"

    Pedals level for most things, for off-camber or fast flat, outside foot down, bike leaned more than body etc.

    If I'm coming in to a berm too fast, I have a tendancy to drop my outside foot. I think this is a subconsios "too fast - too fast - get ready for a slide - drop the outside foot kind of thing." This works fine, unless you are in linked S berms, then the transition from outside down to outside down is a bi-otch. I can not seem to go from outside down to level in a situation like this. I know, I know, just stop dropping the outside foot and all will be fine in the linked stuff....

    michael

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by mykel View Post
    Right foot forward.
    But then when I used to skate - I was Right foot forward as well - aka "goofy"

    Pedals level for most things, for off-camber or fast flat, outside foot down, bike leaned more than body etc.

    If I'm coming in to a berm too fast, I have a tendancy to drop my outside foot. I think this is a subconsios "too fast - too fast - get ready for a slide - drop the outside foot kind of thing." This works fine, unless you are in linked S berms, then the transition from outside down to outside down is a bi-otch. I can not seem to go from outside down to level in a situation like this. I know, I know, just stop dropping the outside foot and all will be fine in the linked stuff....

    michael
    those linked s berms are tricky
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  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by mykel View Post
    Right foot forward.
    But then when I used to skate - I was Right foot forward as well - aka "goofy"

    Pedals level for most things, for off-camber or fast flat, outside foot down, bike leaned more than body etc.

    If I'm coming in to a berm too fast, I have a tendancy to drop my outside foot. I think this is a subconsios "too fast - too fast - get ready for a slide - drop the outside foot kind of thing." This works fine, unless you are in linked S berms, then the transition from outside down to outside down is a bi-otch. I can not seem to go from outside down to level in a situation like this. I know, I know, just stop dropping the outside foot and all will be fine in the linked stuff....
    I was thinking about this while I was out on course at HAN this weekend too. The more attention I paid to what I was doing, the more I noticed that I do something different for almost every turn.

    For a "level" berm, its level feet all the way. For a really tight berm, outside foot is down. For a "downhill" berm (like in a switchback), I start out level and gradually work my around to outside foot down near the exit to get extra bite out of the rear.

    Above all, what I learned is that I do all this stuff on autopilot and thank goodness for that 'cause it's way too complicated to think about it as you go!
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