Hamilton Area Riders: Welcome to the Hamilton Cycling Club!- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
    Evil Jr.
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    Hamilton Area Riders: Welcome to the Hamilton Cycling Club!

    As advertised, CptSydor (Jeff) and I (Marc) attended the first Hamilton Cycling Club (HCC) executive meeting of the year. After introductions and a brief welcome, we got right down to business as the first item on the agenda.

    In broad strokes, we laid out what we, as mountain bikers, hoped to accomplish as part of the HCC in the near-to-long term:

    • advocate with the City, HRCA, RBG and the new Cootes to Escarpment management to maintain and/or increase land access
    • build and maintain sanctioned trail systems in one or all of Waterdown, Chedoke and Red Hill with the possible eventual goal of hosting our own O-Cup


    The executive moved to propose two motions:

    • to create TWO (!) board positions dedicated to mountain biking
    • to affiliate with IMBA


    Both were PASSED UNANIMOUSLY with no hesitation! To say that the executive was eager to have us would be a gross understatement. Furthermore, they will amend the club's constitution at the next AGM to include specific verbiage with regards to mountain biking.

    As newly minted surrogate executive members, we were invited to stay for the rest of the meeting and we did just that. I was really keen to learn about all the activity going on in the club including (but not limited to) planning the Good Friday road O-Cup, the youth development program, the Trillium grants and the rider sponsorship program. There's really a LOT of good work going on there!

    What now, you might ask?

    I propose that all interested riders meet again next Wednesday (negotiable) at the Coach and Lantern (negotiable but I'll book the same room if enough people want in) to go over details and sign membership forms en masse. I would also like to use this meeting to start planning our committee structure and actions.

    Lukey left Jeff with a lot of information before he left on vacation that will make a great framework for building a great MTB club!

    Who's in?
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  2. #2
    Ms. Monster
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    Me! (duh)

    If there were a Super-D race in Chedoke, I might just have to give it a try...

  3. #3
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    In and eager!
    Wednesday the 20th is good for me!

  4. #4
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    Forming my response. Will be emailed and posted after lunch.

  5. #5
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    Ramble/Ramble

    Hello Everyone

    As promised, here is my report after meeting with the HCC executive last night. In attendance on ‘behalf’ (and I say that loosely) of the MTB community was Marc and myself. We were both in attendance during the original meeting on Jan 6th.

    The meeting was not a general membership meeting, but open only to the current executive board (8 members). Both Marc and I were warmly welcomed into the procedures of the night.

    The first topic on the agenda was ‘MTB Guests’. The situation was explained to the 4 executives who did not attend our initial meeting on Jan 6th. There was excellent discussion and motions were passed to create two new executive board positions that will be filled by MTB community members. The second motion was for the club to join the IMBA, which was passed as well. Marc and I sat through the remainder of the meeting which focused on the current club affairs.

    There is the formality. Here are my thoughts/declarations

    The Hamilton Cycling Club is completely on board with having a strong MTB presence within their club. I think this is evident by the unanimous creation of two new executive positions on their board in an attempt help organize the MTB community (we still need to do this). At least 3 of the current 8 members have significant ties to the MTB scene (be it racing/coaching/youth programs), hence the issues we face do not fall on deaf years.

    The current club has significant ties to road racing. This is mainly from a historical perspective as the primary demographic in the club, especially on the executive has been involved with this aspect of cycling. As a result, the club has and will continue with this as a direction, especially considering the legacy events (Good Friday road race, Valley Park CX race, etc) that have always been a part of the club. What was apparent from last night, is that expanding, with the dedication of few individuals within the club is accepted, encouraged and the executive, regardless of their primary interest will lend support where they can. This was clear from the discussion of the youth program. From what I can tell, this aspect of the club has grown and is currently growing under the tutelage of a couple very keen members who are working diligently to ensure the programs expands. This sets an excellent precedent that the full club resources will be available to a sub community of mountain bikers who are passionate and prepared to work for our causes.

    At this point, I am recommending the mountain bike community join the HCC so we can have a unified cycling club. From my perspective, from the last meeting, the good portion of people who raised their hand and said they were willing to devote significant time and effort (mainly myself, Marc (garage monster) and Lukey) to the development of club, all were interested in stepping into the infrastructure of the HCC, conditional arms were wide open from the current executive. I have no hesitation after attending the meeting.

    Here are some facts and or fictions of how I envision MTB can integrate into the HCC. (this is simply an idea, not concrete)
    1) Membership. Fees are $50 for entry, + $25 OCA insurance (unless already obtained elsewhere such as an OCA/CCA/UCI race licence). The insurance is absolutely needed when organizing club activities. This does cover off-road riding. Most other clubs in the province are under this umbrella as well. There was discussion of IMBA insurance at the meeting, and while slightly cheaper, there is no reason to have two suppliers. This just simplifies logistics. In the event that the HCC MTB division begins managing a portion of trail, then IMBA insurance will be obtained to cover every km of trail for any rider, irrespective of HCC membership. The HCC is completely on board with this when (not if!) it happens.

    As has been mentioned before, the price is higher than a grass route club, but we are purchasing infrastructure, membership numbers, and experience in dealing with red tape. If you have ever been involved with organizing any form of conglomerate of people in a respectable manner, you will likely agree this can be close to priceless. If you have not organized anything under an official banner, I suggest you give it a shot!

    2) Executive board positions.

    i) General MTB member. Primary focus will be on all things MTB, from organizing regular rides, trips, clinics, etc. All the stuff that involves riding bikes in the dirt. For people to be involved with the club, we obviously need these aspects to tie a large portion together.

    ii) Trail Advocacy member. This is where the majority of interests stand. This person will be responsible for organizing a sub-committee that itself will be akin to a new club. The sub-committee (5-6 members) will be responsible for approaching/lobbying government bodies for the rights of mountain bikers. The sub-committee would also be responsible for trail building, land management when (not if!) we get access to grounds (this all seems reasonable given the research lukey has done on the current status of municipal land with designation for MTB/recreation). The organizer will be responsible to report back to the executive and garner the support/resources from the current club infrastructure.

    How these positions will be allocated is not decided and open to discussion. Marc and I are currently standing in for this position until some form of consensus can be made. I for one will nominate Lukey to take on the roll of position ii) if he is willing upon return from overseas.

    I think most people are in agreement that we need to stand together as a group to best exercise our will upon the evil empire that is suppressing us (sorry, felt like getting dramatic). There are a few of us who are prepared to give this an effort in collaboration with the HCC, so we will be taking this approach. If you, or the people you love (to ride with) have doubts, I suggest you read Lukey’s posts. If you cannot get behind what he stands for, or the knowledge, ideas and dedication he brings to table, well, I’m unsure what to say. Lukey, without speaking for him, but from his posts and in discussion, is on board with the HCC route.

    Hopefully whoever ends up in these positions will garner you support. I also hope people will step up to the plate and become involved with the club in support of those who will be driving the effort.

    As Marc suggested, another meeting will be held next Wednesday. I hope we can gather an even large group. We will be there to answer questions, take suggestions and hopefully start a community of mountain bikers that will lead us down a path to elevate the state of mountain biking in the Hamilton area.

    Cheers

    Jeff

  6. #6
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    It's official


  7. #7
    www.sirbikealotracing.com
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    i'll attend the meeting with hopefully a couple others
    coach and lantern i understand is a possibility?
    : : :http://sirbikealotracing.com/ : : : : : : : : :

    www.eastcoastopen.com
    DH/XC/Dual

  8. #8
    Evil Jr.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sirbikealot
    coach and lantern i understand is a possibility?
    Yep, we had our first meeting last week in the room upstairs. Very nice. I highly recommend the curry (and Guiness).

    Here's the location if you're unfamiliar with it.

    Sounds like we have a quorum of sorts, I'll book the room!

    (On an unrelated note, I had no idea you were from Dundas too! Small, tiny world! )
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster
    Yep, we had our first meeting last week in the room upstairs. Very nice. I highly recommend the curry (and Guiness).

    Here's the location if you're unfamiliar with it.

    Sounds like we have a quorum of sorts, I'll book the room!
    yep i'm familiar with the coach, maybe a little to familiar
    what time?
    : : :http://sirbikealotracing.com/ : : : : : : : : :

    www.eastcoastopen.com
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  10. #10
    Evil Jr.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sirbikealot
    what time?
    Oh, duh!

    7PM, sharpish (I was late last week, Wilson felt steeper than usual for some reason that night... ).
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  11. #11
    Evil Jr.
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    Dang, just ran into a snag; the room's already booked next Wednesday .

    I think we have 3 options:

    1. Change venues
    2. Change nights
    3. Screw it and try to talk over the band downstairs


    I'd personally prefer to keep the same night. Any ideas on other venues? Anyone?
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  12. #12

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    I think The Winchester Arms in Dundas has a back room around the same size as the Coach and Lantern.

  13. #13
    Evil Jr.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Henry D.
    I think The Winchester Arms in Dundas has a back room around the same size as the Coach and Lantern.
    Done and done! Our reservation is for 7PM (under Marc Risdale) at the Winchester Arms in BEAUTIFUL downtown Dundas. I can totally stagger home from this one!

    Thanks Henry!

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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by CptSydor
    Ramble/Ramble


    As Marc suggested, another meeting will be held next Wednesday. I hope we can gather an even large group. We will be there to answer questions, take suggestions and hopefully start a community of mountain bikers that will lead us down a path to elevate the state of mountain biking in the Hamilton area.

    Cheers

    Jeff


    Should we be posting notice of this meeting on other forums and at local bike shops?

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by langford
    Should we be posting notice of this meeting on other forums and at local bike shops?
    Here is a poster. (Too busy?). We should get it into

    Peiriks
    Freewheel
    Waterdown
    Central
    Mountain Top
    Scantallion
    Ancaster
    Brant

    Post on

    bikeforums
    dropmachine
    pinkbike

    I don't have the time to get these out. Any one(s) able to do this before the weekend. I can hit forums.

    Attached Files Attached Files
    Last edited by CptSydor; 01-14-2010 at 03:18 PM.

  16. #16
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    Replying to Jeff's poster thread 7 post up in the thread.

    Posters look good, who's the poster boy???

    I can look after East Hamilton bike shops - Central, Main, All the Right Gears and can drop some off in Burlington, Milton and maybe Oakville too.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by langford
    Replying to Jeff's poster thread 7 post up in the thread.

    Posters look good, who's the poster boy???

    I can look after East Hamilton bike shops - Central, Main, All the Right Gears and can drop some off in Burlington, Milton and maybe Oakville too.
    Excellent.

    Poster boy is me! Don't let the number plate fool you, that's not what we are all about!

  18. #18
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    ...
    Last edited by langford; 01-14-2010 at 04:03 PM.

  19. #19
    Ho Hum, another SS rider
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    Quote Originally Posted by CptSydor
    I Like this! Well done fellas!

  20. #20
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    Idea!

    That is a terrific poster
    Shall it go to the Spectator?
    Last edited by Steveonomad; 01-14-2010 at 09:32 PM.

  21. #21
    Evil Jr.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steveonomad
    That is a terrific poster
    Shall it go to the Spectator?
    Probably be a good idea to get it out to Canadian Cyclist and Pedal too. Anyone have any contacts?
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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster
    Probably be a good idea to get it out to Canadian Cyclist and Pedal too. Anyone have any contacts?
    I'm guessing spectator might be tough, but I'll email Canadian cyclist. Pedal might be something to thing about when we actually get going.

  23. #23
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    This is fantastic news guys. I'll post it up on my blog sometime before the weekend is done.
    Jason Murray
    Rep for Ontario, IMBA Canada
    Visit the IMBA Canada site to keep current on all things IMBA in Canada.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster
    Probably be a good idea to get it out to Canadian Cyclist and Pedal too. Anyone have any contacts?

    I can get it up on Canadian Cyclist today.

    Chad

  25. #25
    Evil Jr.
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    Quote Originally Posted by langford
    I can look after East Hamilton bike shops - Central, Main, All the Right Gears and can drop some off in Burlington, Milton and maybe Oakville too.
    I'll hit Waterdown, Peierik's and Freewheel on my way home from work.
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  26. #26
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    I work at Freewheel so I'll be able to get this up today

    Chad

  27. #27
    Evil Jr.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChadGDundas
    I work at Freewheel so I'll be able to get this up today

    Chad
    Sweet! That gives me time to schlep over to Ancaster! Thanks!
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  28. #28
    X-Ray Guy
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    Good chance that me and a friend shall be in attendance

  29. #29
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    I'll try my best to leave a couple copies at the East mountain shops tomorrow am.

    I think we are only missing Peiriks and Bicycle Works in waterdown.

    We are up on Canadian Cyclist now.

  30. #30
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    i will more than likely be able to leave a copy down at piereks today as i had planned to visit

  31. #31
    Ms. Monster
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    Quote Originally Posted by CptSydor
    I think we are only missing Peiriks and Bicycle Works in waterdown.
    I think garage monster has those.

  32. #32
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    MEC in Burlington done and Spokes N Slopes in Milton done.

  33. #33
    Evil Jr.
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    I never even thought of MEC (*facepalm*)! Briliant!
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  34. #34
    X-Ray Guy
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    piereks done

  35. #35

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    Hi All

    I am one of the two guys who voted against joining the HCC at the Jan 6 meeting. I did so not so much because I am opposed, but because I felt that things were moving too fast, and because I did not feel that many of us had had a chance to consult with our “constituents.” I have since done so, and while there are divergent views among the group that I ride with (the same group as Peter Young/Emilio Lizardo and Tom Chow/itsdoable), it is now apparent that there is little momentum in our group for any alternative to joining the HCC (other than doing nothing, which I don’t see as viable).

    I have thus recommended to our group that we join the HCC. How many will do so, I do not know.

    I will be at the meet on Jan 20, and will join the HCC.

    There are a couple of topics I would like to see discussed at the meet. One is insurance. I don’t see why MTB-oriented members should have to take OCA insurance. If the HCC affiliates with IMBA, why can’t members have a choice of OCA or IMBA insurance? I may be wrong, but it seems that the IMBA insurance is more suitable for mountain bike activities than OCA insurance is.

    Another topic is amending the HCC constitution as mentioned by garage monster above. If changes are to be made, it is a long time to wait until November for the next AGM. Perhaps these changes are significant enough to warrant calling an extraordinary meeting per 7.2a of the HCC constitution as posted on the HCC site. Such a meeting might be a good idea anyway to thoroughly inform current HCC membership of the new MTB-oriented membership and mandate, and to achieve formal “buy-in” from the general membership.

    I look forward to proudly wearing HCC colours.

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by sreynolds
    There are a couple of topics I would like to see discussed at the meet. One is insurance. I don’t see why MTB-oriented members should have to take OCA insurance. If the HCC affiliates with IMBA, why can’t members have a choice of OCA or IMBA insurance? I may be wrong, but it seems that the IMBA insurance is more suitable for mountain bike activities than OCA insurance is.

    Another topic is amending the HCC constitution as mentioned by garage monster above. If changes are to be made, it is a long time to wait until November for the next AGM. Perhaps these changes are significant enough to warrant calling an extraordinary meeting per 7.2a of the HCC constitution as posted on the HCC site. Such a meeting might be a good idea anyway to thoroughly inform current HCC membership of the new MTB-oriented membership and mandate, and to achieve formal “buy-in” from the general membership.

    I look forward to proudly wearing HCC colours.
    Glad to hear! I think (hope) there's a lot of potential in going this route. I recognise the need for consultation, but felt the urgency of the trail access issue keenly.

    As for insurance, this is a reasonable point, but one that will not be resolved quickly, as there would have to be some back-and-forth between the HCC and the OCA/IMBA insurance companies. I'm not aware of any clubs that have an either/or choice, and I'm not sure why. I doubt that the HCC would be willing to cancel OCA insurance as a club, so the question is whether the OCA insurance company is willing to "count" IMBA-insured members as insured (I don't see why not, but their bureaucracy might prevent it). For me, it's something to send back to the board, but not a deal-breaker. On the other hand, I'm a bit biased, because I already have OCA insurance through another club AND my OCA racing licence. I will say - a citizen permit is only $40, which then allows you to race multiple events (e.g. weekly series, 8- and 24-hour races, Paris-to-Ancaster etc). That's only $15 more than the extra $25. Day-of permits are (I think) $10.

    As for point 2, I am content with waiting, as things are going so well currently. I'm not sure that anything would actually change one way or another, but fair point. One reason to wait is that we might have more MTB members by the AGM (as opposed to now), meaning the changes would be more likely to pass.

  37. #37
    Evil Jr.
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    Waterdown and Ancaster are done!
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  38. #38
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    Burlington done (Brant cycle and Neworld Cycle)
    East Hamilton - Central (Brian might come to the mtg) and Main done, All the Right Gears - 1st thing tomorrow morning.

  39. #39
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    How's the bike parking situation at the Winchester Arms? Do they have any?

  40. #40
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    You can find more detailed infrastructural information about the restaurant here:

    http://www.winchesterarms.net/mapsdundas.htm

  41. #41
    mtb wipeout king
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    i will be there on Wed. but being a steelworker I will be late as I have to work until 7pm and heading to the meeting right after. I am looking forward to this, as this is my new alternative to playing ball this year. Thank you for all the hard work you two, and you have my vote to stay as execs.

  42. #42
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    Looks like I'll be driving and utilizing the "ample parking in Civic Parking areas near by & at the front and the main entrance is accessed from there."

    Will the HCC be set up for accepting memberships at the meeting? Should people be bringing membership forms and waiver forms filled out with cheques attached???

  43. #43

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    People can bring memberships, waivers and cheques to the meeting if they'd like, I will be there to accept them. http://hamiltoncycling.com/?page_id=22 There will also be some forms and waivers available there for people to fill out. They may also be sent in to the address on the bottom of the application.

  44. #44
    Evil Jr.
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    I'll be bringing some blank application forms and waivers but if you intend on joining the club tomorrow night (and not just kicking the tires ), by all means, print the forms out from the HCC site and fill them out before hand. :thumbsup

    There is ample parking in that part of Dundas. I'm not entirely sure when they stop charging for it though. Maybe 6PM?
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    New question here. Insurance

    I don't mind filling out the form and the waiver, and paying my $50 tomorrow night. However, I don't want to pay for the OCA insurance until we settle the OCA/IMBA either/or/both question. So, can I join tomorrow without paying for OCA insurance?

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by sreynolds
    I don't mind filling out the form and the waiver, and paying my $50 tomorrow night. However, I don't want to pay for the OCA insurance until we settle the OCA/IMBA either/or/both question. So, can I join tomorrow without paying for OCA insurance?
    I will try to look more in depth about the insurance, but I think it's more semantics than anything else. Could you let me know the concerns with the OCA insurance? From what I have been told or can infer

    1) Both OCA and IMBA insurance cover club activities.
    2) IMBA gets not benefits from their clubs having their insurance

    I think creating the extra paper work for a matter of $11 per person is counter productive. But please, let me know the major concerns.

    EDIT: No, you likely will not be able to join without the insurance. We have nothing set with IMBA at this point, and club members must have valid insurance to be part of the club.

    Jeff

  47. #47
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    I am making an honest attempt to figure out the differences in cost and benefits between the two types of insurance but I'm no expert. Trying to pin down exactly what you get and for how much seems to be a moving target of sorts.

    To wit:

    Quote Originally Posted by CCA
    Question: What does the Canadian Cycling Association Liability policy cover?

    Answer: It would be lengthy to list all the insuring agreements under the policy, but in many cases many inquiries relate to the concept of Liability Insurance. General Liability Insurance is designed to protect a person (member) or any entity (Province, Club, CCA) against any legal responsibility arising out of a negligent act or a failure to act as a prudent person would have acted, which results in bodily injury or property damage to another party.
    On the other hand:

    Quote Originally Posted by IMBA
    The policy insures your club for liability arising from events like club rides, kids rides, meetings, bike patrols, and other club activities. It also covers the ownership, construction, design, use and maintenance of trails you have responsibility built to "Whistler Trail Standards".
    And then there's cost. The OCA insurance costs $25, no questions asked. IMBA on the other hand goes as follows:

    Quote Originally Posted by IMBA
    A standard policy costs $10 per club member, $4 per km of managed trail plus a $ 25 policy fee subject to a minimum premium and fee of $ 275 per club.
    I'm sure Jason could clear it up for us but it sounds like it adds up along nearly the same lines.

    In the near term, I don't think the HCC executive has any interest in paying for duplicate policies since this would be a costly "belt and suspenders" approach and I don't see any provision in either policy to offer insurance on an "either/or" basis.

    In the long term (once we have an insurable trail network under our belts), the executive may very well re-evaluate which policy makes the most sense based on economics but that's probably a ways out there.

    So, to answer your question, yes, you need to pony up the $25 (unless you already have a super-handy and economical OCA citizen's permit - $40 for unlimited racing including pretty much all of the most popular events in Ontario, like the P2A) for the OCA insurance to join the club.
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  48. #48
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    Insurance

    As a rider and a "ride organizer", insurance is one of only two reasons I am involved in this discussion. The other is trail advocacy of course.

    IMHO, nobody should be joining the HCC to organize around MTB activities until the insurance issue is resolved and clearly communicated to all potential new members. I've been listening to / reading all of this and the coverage and limits of the two options (OCA and IMBA/Oasis) is completely muddy.

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    IMBA vs. OCA Insurance

    Going by a quick read of the FAQs for the two programs as posted by Lukey in the Goals thread before this one, IMBA covers the club for trails that it is responsible for by agreement with a landowner. Having this insurance is one of the main ways that land owners can be convinced to allow biking on their land. OCA does not offer this as far as I can see.

    Also, IMBA insurance specifically contemplates trailbuilding and trails built to certain standards. The OCA coverage does not seem to be as good in this regard.

    In general, it seems that the OCA coverage is designed for sanctioned road events, and the IMBA coverage is more designed for off road riding.

    Yoo hoo, Jason! Any comment?
    Attached Files Attached Files

  50. #50
    Ho Hum, another SS rider
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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster
    I'm sure Jason could clear it up for us but it sounds like it adds up along nearly the same lines.
    In casually chatting with Morris of GORBA, they pay about $17 per member to IMBA for insurance (hoping I am remembering that correctly). Their club has about 190 members. I guess the ultimate per-member fee goes down with increasing numbers.

  51. #51
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    All I can add to that is that my "other" club, Misfit Psycles, is for sure an MTB club and we're covered by the OCA insurance. The OCA insurance even covers BMX and Cyclocross, probably even DH.

    If you look deeply enough into the IMBA FAQ, you get this tidbit:

    Quote Originally Posted by IMBA
    Q: WHAT DOESN'T IT COVER?

    It doesn't cover a lot of things, but the most notable exceptions are races and race-like competitive events such as observed trials competitions, jumping contests or freeride events. Special events involving the use of stunts or constructed technical trail features, as well as events such as pro rider demonstrations, are not covered. McKay sells race and contest insurance separately.

    The policy also doesn't cover injuries arising out of incidents other than accidents, like fights or purposefully injurious behavior.

    There is no coverage for errors and omissions claims such as misfeasance or mismanagement of the club. Breach of fiduciary duties and employment related practices are excluded.
    So even the IMBA insurance has some major exclusions with regards to MTB.
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  52. #52
    Ho Hum, another SS rider
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    From reading the "OCA" doc that sreynolds listed, the coverage for CCA is provided throught Jones Brown. Their website has additional detail on the coverage they have arranged for CCA affiliated clubs:

    http://www.jonesbrown.com/jonesbrown.../jbcycling.php

    I LOVE reading insurance documents!

    Noteworthy: No mention of recreational riding. Everything has to be "Training", "Competition", or "Touring". Definitions from the documentation:
    Training Program:
    Means a specific program developed in consultation with and under the direct supervision of proper authority of the sport governing body of which the insured person is a member.

    Tour:
    Means travel undertaken by the Insured Person under supervision of the sport governing body of which the person is a member.

    Competition:
    Means a cycling even organized, supervised and sponsored by the sport governing body of which the insured is a member
    Last edited by emiliolizardo; 01-19-2010 at 02:46 PM.

  53. #53
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    Geez, that document doesn't go a long way to making it any clearer.

    However, the exclusions are somewhat entertaining!

    War / Terrorism
    Fungi & Fungal derivatives
    Cyber/data corruption
    Total asbestos
    Fungi? So much for that Athlete's Foot law suit I was considering...
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  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by sreynolds
    IMBA insurance specifically contemplates trailbuilding and trails built to certain standards. The OCA coverage does not seem to be as good in this regard.

    In general, it seems that the OCA coverage is designed for sanctioned road events, and the IMBA coverage is more designed for off road riding.
    I would disagree with the last point. The OCA insurance is designed for casual riding AND for any kind of bicycle racing - including mountain biking. That's exactly why you have to buy a citizen licence to participate in any Chico event or mountain bike race. IMBA-provided insurance does not cover ANY racing. On the other hand, as you pointed out above, the OCA insurer does not have any specific provision for trails.

    Given that the HCC currently runs a number of races (the Good Friday Road Race, the fall cross race and many many time trials), they NEED the OCA insurance. The IMBA insurance would be worth looking into in future IF landowners required the HCC to insure the trails. The City of Hamilton (where we first hope to build trails) probably already has insurance that covers trails on their land, so that would be moot. It might be something to explore for future dealings with the RBG or HRCA, but again, they likely already have insurance. The overall cost difference is small.

    If you want to join the HCC (at least this year), I'd say you must get the OCA insurance one way or another, whether you get an OCA Citizen permit or get it through the club.

  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by emiliolizardo
    Noteworthy: No mention of recreational riding. Everything has to be "Training", "Competition", or "Touring". Definitions from the documentation:
    Tour:
    Means travel undertaken by the Insured Person under supervision of the sport governing body of which the person is a member.
    I read that as recreational riding. In other words, it insures club-organised group rides (it does not insure you riding on your own). But what do I know - I'm CLEARLY not in insurance.

  56. #56
    Ho Hum, another SS rider
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerdgirl
    I'm CLEARLY not in insurance.
    Same here. Hence the need for clarification before we slap down $25 clams and ride into a tree expecting that the broken nose we sustain, which destroys our modeling career, will be covered by insurance.

    Not so says a high powered lawyer type!

  57. #57
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    I'm very poor. Man whoring is very slow.

    Does the HCC have a student rate?
    "I love being on a bike. It helps me feel free. I get it from my dad", by Guillaume Blanchet

  58. #58
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    I may be able to provide some clarification from memory, although I believe you should check with the OCA to be sure (been a few years since I dealt directly with this in Ontario and guidelines may have changed). I think it goes something along the lines of... the club maintaining a list of insured activities which it submits to the OCA. These may be periodic (i.e. weekly) rides and similar.

    Additional miscellaneous rides and activities may also be insured on a "just in time" basis by communicating the basic specs (type of activity, place, time) to the OCA during office hours prior to the activity taking place. The club directors (president?) must be the party who communicates the activity details to the OCA to have an activity added.

    So long as the activity is within the generally accepted scope of the insurance, then once the information is communicated as described above the participants, activity leaders, and club are covered for general liability. Group rides organized by the club can reasonably be construed as training rides, to the best of my knowledge. What they are trying to filter out through this entire process is the proverbial Bob & Sally who are members of the club went out for a ride by themselves that was a casual ride with no control or interaction from the club, managed to hurt themselves, and file a claim. In that scenario, the insurer has no mechanism to manage the risk since the ride was not under any best practices supervision of the club, and therefore it's a bad risk for them to take on as an insurer.

    Does that help?

    As for suggesting the OCA is only a body for sanctioning road events, that is a very odd assumption. Start working from the bottom up at this link below from 2009, which among other events shows the entire Ontario Cup XC and DH series under OCA sanction, not to mention that they also sanction many of the large citizen events for Chico racing, etc. which are not listed here;

    http://www.ontariocycling.org/web_pa...ts.php?YR=2009

  59. #59
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    It's good to see something happening local for mountain bikers finally. Would like to know if there is any benefit to join HCC for the casual trail rider who does not plan on racing?

  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by kruzen
    It's good to see something happening local for mountain bikers finally. Would like to know if there is any benefit to join HCC for the casual trail rider who does not plan on racing?
    I would say, this year, the primary benefit is advocacy and trail building. Members plan to work closely with the city to develop new trails (and hopefully a gravity park and skills park) in Chedoke and under the Red Hill Creek Expressway. They also plan to represent us in discussing Waterdown trails and in interactions with the RBG/HRCA. The more people who join, the more power the voice of the HCC has.

    If there is a desire amongst members, I am certain there could be organised trail rides and other activities. It's up to us. What would you want out of a club?

  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Biggie
    I'm very poor. Man whoring is very slow.

    Does the HCC have a student rate?
    Looks like you have to get the whole family involved in biking! The family rate is the steal: $60!

    There is also apparently an "Associate" rate of $5: "restricted privileges - must be a member of another OCA affiliated club".

    I'm not sure what that does exactly. You could join Misfit Psycles AND HCC, perhaps?

  62. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerdgirl
    Looks like you have to get the whole family involved in biking! The family rate is the steal: $60!

    There is also apparently an "Associate" rate of $5: "restricted privileges - must be a member of another OCA affiliated club".

    I'm not sure what that does exactly. You could join Misfit Psycles AND HCC, perhaps?

    All too steep.

    They're great rates, I believe, but our two income house has been reduced to one. My wife works part-time (ie. NO benefits) and ruptured her achilles tendon playing volleyball last thursday.

    "join Misfit Psycles"?

    Too late. Peter and Hugh have hired engineering consultants to see if they can produce a bike to hold my girth. Rumours out of Tottenham have it being anodized with 18k gold, black old school roadie panels and risque pictures of Marilyn Monroe straddling a bone handled Smith & Wesson revolver on the top tube.
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  63. #63
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    ah what's 25 clams these days...hardly buys a big box of fruit loops and a gallon of milk.

    i know i will join HCC this year and i don't even plan on riding.

  64. #64
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    Will the OCA insurance save me money on my P2A registration?
    "I love being on a bike. It helps me feel free. I get it from my dad", by Guillaume Blanchet

  65. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Biggie
    Will the OCA insurance save me money on my P2A registration?
    I suspect not, but I'm not certain.

    Is the P2A the ONLY race you're going to do this year? Given that a Citizen permit is $40, which would then save you $25 from the HCC, you'd only need $15 worth of Single Day permits (like you'd need for P2A, and are, I think $10) to make it a break-even proposition...

  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerdgirl
    I suspect not, but I'm not certain.

    Is the P2A the ONLY race you're going to do this year? Given that a Citizen permit is $40, which would then save you $25 from the HCC, you'd only need $15 worth of Single Day permits (like you'd need for P2A, and are, I think $10) to make it a break-even proposition...

    Probably the only race. I'd like to do one more - preferably a casual booze festish type of event. You kind of lost me with the numbers...

    How does the citizen permit save me money from the HCC?
    "I love being on a bike. It helps me feel free. I get it from my dad", by Guillaume Blanchet

  67. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Biggie
    Probably the only race. I'd like to do one more - preferably a casual booze festish type of event. You kind of lost me with the numbers...

    How does the citizen permit save me money from the HCC?
    It is my goal to baffle with mathematics.

    Briefly: if you already HAVE OCA insurance (e.g. by having an OCA racing or citizen's permit, or by belonging to another OCA-affiliated club), then you do not have to pay the extra $25 to HCC.

  68. #68
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    Is the reverse true?

    If I bought my HCC membership and insurance would I save some insurance fee with the P2A?
    "I love being on a bike. It helps me feel free. I get it from my dad", by Guillaume Blanchet

  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerdgirl
    Looks like you have to get the whole family involved in biking! The family rate is the steal: $60!
    Does anyone know how they define a 'family'? My bf and I live together and plan to join the mtb ranks of the HCC. Do we qualify as a family, or do we have to join individually?
    I love riding my bike!

  70. #70

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    You and your bf may count as family, you still pay individual insurance premiums.

  71. #71
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    Last night's meeting was a stupendous success. Turn-out went far beyond even my wildest expectations. It's clear from the quality and the vigour of the discussion that this is an idea that is long overdue. I'd like to personally thank everyone who took the time to come out, drink beer and talk bikes!

    For those of you that couldn't make it, I'll recap briefly. Jeff began by introducing himself and describing to the non-MTBR attendees our activities over the last few weeks. We then left the floor open to debate. A group of GORBA execs had also made the trip and elucidated a lot of the finer points of running a successful club. It was lively and very constructive.

    In the end, all that was left to do was sign-up, which we did in great numbers. Henry, Carl and I even ran out of applications and waivers (check the HCC for copies of both if you were missed)!!!

    What next?

    We will be having the first actual HCC MTB meeting on Wednesday, February 3rd. Mrs. Monster and I are on our way to AB to XC ski race in Banff this weekend (I'm writing this from the Hamilton airport ) but I'll book a room early next week. Speak up if you have an idea or a preference or else I'll just keep booking stuff in the West end.

    We hope to be able to lay the framework for our sub-committees (serious and fun ones) and get people named to posts as an outcome.

    This meeting will be open to all HCC members, new and current, so if you want a seat at the table and you haven't joined yet, get on it!
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  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster
    Last night's meeting was a stupendous success. Turn-out went far beyond even my wildest expectations. It's clear from the quality and the vigour of the discussion that this is an idea that is long overdue. I'd like to personally thank everyone who took the time to come out, drink beer and talk bikes!

    For those of you that couldn't make it, I'll recap briefly. Jeff began by introducing himself and describing to the non-MTBR attendees our activities over the last few weeks. We then left the floor open to debate. A group of GORBA execs had also made the trip and elucidated a lot of the finer points of running a successful club. It was lively and very constructive.

    In the end, all that was left to do was sign-up, which we did in great numbers. Henry, Carl and I even ran out of applications and waivers (check the HCC for copies of both if you were missed)!!!

    What next?

    We will be having the first actual HCC MTB meeting on Wednesday, February 3rd. Mrs. Monster and I are on our way to AB to XC ski race in Banff this weekend (I'm writing this from the Hamilton airport ) but I'll book a room early next week. Speak up if you have an idea or a preference or else I'll just keep booking stuff in the West end.

    We hope to be able to lay the framework for our sub-committees (serious and fun ones) and get people named to posts as an outcome.

    This meeting will be open to all HCC members, new and current, so if you want a seat at the table and you haven't joined yet, get on it!
    Truly was a great meeting, congrats to all.

    I assume same time and location for the HCC MTB meeting?
    : : :http://sirbikealotracing.com/ : : : : : : : : :

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  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by sirbikealot
    Truly was a great meeting, congrats to all.

    I assume same time and location for the HCC MTB meeting?
    Meeting will be 7:00 pm on Wednesday the 3rd of February. Location to be announced, beer will be available.

  74. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Biggie
    Is the reverse true?

    If I bought my HCC membership and insurance would I save some insurance fee with the P2A?
    The answer I got on that was no last night. THe 25 dollars only covers you for club activities. If you aren't going to do any races just pay the 25 bucks. If you are going to do sanctioned races then it is better to pay the 40 dollars for the OCA which means you only have to pay 50 dollars to join the HCC.

  75. #75
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    An answer to a question from last night's meeting

    This is from the summary on the Cootes to Escarpment website:
    at http://www.rbg.ca/greenbelt/

    I guess we fall under the "cultural group" category!!



    2009 – 2015
    In the first six years, key actions for the management network
    include securing funding and staffing to carry out activities such as
    developing a land securement strategy, a communications plan, and a
    series of more detailed management plans for the six core areas of
    the park system.
    A Friends of the Cootes to Escarpment Park System
    group may also be established. This group could consist of individuals
    representing a range of local interests including landowners,
    historians, naturalists, biologists as well as representatives from
    school boards, public utilities, institutions, cultural groups,
    businesses, local interest groups and government. Maintaining
    public involvement will remain an important factor to ensure
    residents and stakeholders play a role in implementing the strategy

  76. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by kaikara
    The answer I got on that was no last night. THe 25 dollars only covers you for club activities. If you aren't going to do any races just pay the 25 bucks. If you are going to do sanctioned races then it is better to pay the 40 dollars for the OCA which means you only have to pay 50 dollars to join the HCC.
    You're right. If you're going to compete in OCA events, that insurance will exempt you from having to pay the $25 fee.

  77. #77
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    Can it only be one year since our first mtbr-inspired meeting?

    So much has been accomplished in so little time.

    A very constructive relationship has been established with the Hamilton Conservation Authority. They actually seem keen on developing singletrack on one of their properties. This is huge!!!

    Relationships have been established with other major land owners in the area (the City, RBG etc). These things do take time, but it is nice to see that the City includes trails as a priority in its bicycle planning.

    A youth mtb group was established, with regular rides, and regular rides are happening for (adult) mountain bike members.

    We're planning to incorporate a mountain bike hill climb time trial into the hill climb time trial series that HCC already runs.

    Nearly half the current executive of the Hamilton Cycling Club are now mountain bikers! The club is growing and vibrant as a result of the mtb contingent.

    The future is bright for cycling in Hamilton. Pretty cool this came about due to a thread on this forum.

  78. #78
    Evil Jr.
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    The mind boggles at what we've done in the last year. When I delivered my executive summary at the AGM, I must have blabbed on for like 20 minutes. Fantastic!
    Please enjoy seeing this terrible collection of me - something wonderful is about to happy.

  79. #79
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    I agree, some amazing accomplishments in such a short time and the framework has been set for lots more, thanks to the hard work of lots of people!
    One thing we didn't do very well in 2010 was get anything done on the social aspect of riding.
    I know some people joined last year with the expectation of meeting people and enjoying some social events and were disappointed that there really weren't any, other than some rides we got together for.
    To address this problem we have made the executive larger and it now includes the position of Social Director ( Phil Chung ) and we are already planning for some winter meet and greet events!
    2011 will be a great year for HCC!!!!

  80. #80
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    We ended the year just shy of 140 members too which was a significant jump. Lots of families too!

    For 2011, we're also adding a new "non-racing" membership tier at a very attractive rate that still gets you the insurance you need to do the club rides. New membership form should be up on the site early next week!
    Please enjoy seeing this terrible collection of me - something wonderful is about to happy.

  81. #81
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    im sort of new to this membership thing, (not a member yet) and am wondering if this club is taking new members. I live in hamilton and never knew about this cycling club. Also a great way to meet new people. Can you give me some info about where i can sign up, the cost, how often you guys do group rides, just the basic stuff. i'd love to join as my passion for MBing is bordering on obsession. Do you guys have a website? Any info would be appreciated. Btw my email is [email protected].
    Thanks in advance

  82. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by lukel90
    im sort of new to this membership thing, (not a member yet) and am wondering if this club is taking new members. I live in hamilton and never knew about this cycling club. Also a great way to meet new people. Can you give me some info about where i can sign up, the cost, how often you guys do group rides, just the basic stuff. i'd love to join as my passion for MBing is bordering on obsession. Do you guys have a website? Any info would be appreciated. Btw my email is [email protected].
    Thanks in advance
    A big yes on the new member thing.

    Here's the link: http://hamiltoncycling.com/. There's also a Facebook page, if you're into that.

  83. #83
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    i was just looking at the pics and i noticed that the 2010 hcc banquet was at marquis gardens. i used to work there, i should've come.

  84. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by saturnine
    i was just looking at the pics and i noticed that the 2010 hcc banquet was at marquis gardens. i used to work there, i should've come.
    What can I say? The food was great and the price was right.

    lukel, the Club is pretty cool although currently we're a little light on organized MTB group rides. That's not saying that we're not trying to improve (because we are), it just hasn't been a priority.

    IMHO, the biggest and best reason to become a member is all right HERE.
    Please enjoy seeing this terrible collection of me - something wonderful is about to happy.

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