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  1. #1
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    Girls and Mountain Biking

    This was brought up by Nedgirl in another thread where she made the observation about how girls approach riding vs a boy.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lisa-b...?ref=fb&src=sp

    As the father of a little girl I see this more now that Gabi goes to school. Classic example is 'Boys play with toy cars. Girls do not." is one she came home with from school this year.

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    The first thing my nieces did when we visited my sister over Easter was run to the garage to pull out their new bikes. They couldn't wait to go for a ride. I bought them XC skis before they could walk. I love them to bits.

    My sister generally dresses them like little princesses but they know as soon as it's time to visit Mononcle Marc and Tante Kim, it's time for overalls and rubber boots. There's adventure afoot!
    Please enjoy seeing this terrible collection of me - something wonderful is about to happy.

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    This is such a complex issue.

    Of course it's wrong to impose societal stereotypes on little girls (and boys). And of course some of those acquired lessons affect gender-specific behaviour. On an individual basis, we all have to try, but it's hard to overcome the persistent bias from TV, books, school, other people, etc. etc. etc.

    In addition, I do believe there are some traits that are intrinsically more feminine or masculine (and of course, there are many exceptions to the generalisation). But even if you bring your kid up in a completely gender-neutral manner (good luck), boys and girls will not be identical.

    But really, the cause of gender differences is immaterial. They exist.

    So, the question becomes, how do you make mountain biking (or engineering, or computer science or physics) appealing to women who still want to be traditionally feminine? Harder than it seems.

  4. #4
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    I have a pink girl and a blue boy. They came out wired this way. She is/has always been gentle easy going and slightly squeamish about textures etc. He on the other hand is rough and tumble and will run into walls over and over. I always believed how we treated them made them rough vs gentle etc but this does not seem to be the case. My daughter has over time been able to do more rugged rough and tumble type activities but definitely handles everything with a certain feminine charm. My boy continues to break things "because I can" etc... She does love to ride her bike but mud/bumps/falling is not a fave...

    There is definitely some molding that can be done but I think some people are just born with a certain disposition.

    2 cents in...

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerdgirl View Post
    So, the question becomes, how do you make mountain biking (or engineering, or computer science or physics) appealing to women who still want to be traditionally feminine? Harder than it seems.
    Really there is no clear cut definition of what is feminine. Because like religion it is up to human interpretation. And the reality that each woman has their own idea of this.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerdgirl View Post
    In addition, I do believe there are some traits that are intrinsically more feminine or masculine (and of course, there are many exceptions to the generalisation). But even if you bring your kid up in a completely gender-neutral manner (good luck), boys and girls will not be identical.
    Okay now let's take this even further. Let's look at some thing broken down by area.

    Work

    If a woman makes the decision to leave her job to have a child and raise them. She is being selfish. If she goes straight back to work she is a lousy mother.

    If a woman is demanding and all the traits of a good boss she is a 'Beitch". If it is a man they are a good leader.

    Looks and Apearance

    If a woman decides to cut of all her hair- crew cut she must have cancer or is a lesbien. When a guy does it it's okay.

    Sports

    Easy. Look at the flack our 2010 Medal winning women's hockey team got. They played their hearts out to win. Yet Canadians sniped at them claiming it was unfair they where so good, they shouldn't try, and so on. You sure don't hear that about the mens team if they beat teams 10-0.

    Then add this tidbit. For along time our national women's volleyball program selected athlete's not only by how well they could perform. But on how their arse looked in lycra shorts.


    Okay... now to add a little science to the pot here.

    Aside from the hormones and reproductive organs there is really only one true limiter for a woman's athletic ability. And that is muscle mass and everything connected to that. Now this is where it gets interesting.

    When it comes to strength and sprinting women have no chance to match men. But it's when you look at performances when it becomes a true endurance event that the gab closes. If you look at just in running ultra endurance races- 50k and up. The top women are racing the men. Ann Trason has won the Leadville 100 beating the top women.

  7. #7
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    I dunno what to say about this. I love mountian biking, kickboxing, lifting weights, chopping wood, canoeing, playing guitar, cars, motorcycles. I also love hair and makeup and nice clothes and perfume and MEN!! Rugged manly men! LOL! I can't say that I was hardwired this way, boy stuff is just more fun than girl stuff! And I'm a bit of a rebel and my Dad was adamant that I stick only to the girl stuff.

    I have for most of my carreer held jobs that traditionally been "Men Only" I have had truck drivers tell me that no woman has ever told them where to go, the same who would later say they never had a better or more fair dispatcher. When you tell me I "Can't" do something, I'll set out to do it better than anyone!

    I have had a man yell at his son during Wed night racing cause "What you gonna let yourself get passed by a girl"!! When I went by them.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post
    Sports
    Then add this tidbit. For along time our national women's volleyball program selected athlete's not only by how well they could perform. But on how their arse looked in lycra shorts.
    So why is it you keep posting pictures of female volleyball chicks butts on here and NSMB?

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by shirk View Post
    So why is it you keep posting pictures of female volleyball chicks butts on here and NSMB?
    Zing!

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post
    Work

    If a woman is demanding and all the traits of a good boss she is a 'Beitch". If it is a man they are a good leader.
    Seriously? Are you working in a company stuck in the 50's? Old outdated stereotype.

  11. #11
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    Mononcle Marc
    I just pictured you looking like Mr. Peanut with a top hat and monocle riding your bike.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by shirk View Post
    So why is it you keep posting pictures of female volleyball chicks butts on here and NSMB?
    I readily admit that I can't wait for 2 years from now when the Pan Ams... meaning when you start seeing the teams start coming up for pre games stuff.

    First thing Joely offered was to get me in to see the Brazilian teams.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by nspace View Post
    I just pictured you looking like Mr. Peanut with a top hat and monocle riding your bike.
    Please enjoy seeing this terrible collection of me - something wonderful is about to happy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post
    I readily admit that I can't wait for 2 years from now when the Pan Ams... meaning when you start seeing the teams start coming up for pre games stuff.

    First thing Joely offered was to get me in to see the Brazilian teams.
    So the only reason you want to watch woman's V-ball is to ogle butts?

    Lame.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by shirk View Post
    Seriously? Are you working in a company stuck in the 50's? Old outdated stereotype.
    Usually I have heard either " Must be that time of the month" or " Must be menopause". The second heard a few times lately.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by shirk View Post
    So why is it you keep posting pictures of female volleyball chicks butts on here and NSMB?
    Because maybe I'm an Arseman

    But seriously. It went farther then that.

    This occurred around 1992 at UofM the Volleyball Canada training centre where tryouts are held. But wait it gets even better.

    Joely made the team to go to Barcelona and blew out her knee. Then just after everything blew up. Turns out coach was sleeping with some of the players. It made it to CBC's Fifth Estate. Joely watched the disaster unfold at her moms in Scarborough.

    Thanks to this. It's why coaching women in sport in Canada especially at Uni is a nightmare.

  17. #17
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    Work

    If a woman makes the decision to leave her job to have a child and raise them. She is being selfish. If she goes straight back to work she is a lousy mother.

    If a woman is demanding and all the traits of a good boss she is a 'Beitch". If it is a man they are a good leader.

    [/QUOTE]

    Quote Originally Posted by shirk View Post
    Seriously? Are you working in a company stuck in the 50's? Old outdated stereotype.
    I agree... Where the F are you getting this crap from??

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Louda View Post

    I agree... Where the F are you getting this crap from??
    Sure it's crap. But the reality is that despite all the stuff put out how evolved we supposedly are. This type of stuff still occurs way more frequently then we admit.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post
    Sure it's crap. But the reality is that despite all the stuff put out how evolved we supposedly are. This type of stuff still occurs way more frequently then we admit.
    Where are you working that you actually hear this currently?

    I've worked in finance, automotive manufacturing, aviation and the outdoors industry with female managers and never has that been reality.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by shirk View Post
    Where are you working that you actually hear this currently?

    I've worked in finance, automotive manufacturing, aviation and the outdoors industry with female managers and never has that been reality.
    Heard it a few times at the base. Heard it a few times working for the city.

    The new one I have heard in regards to a manager's decisions at Queen's is " Oh.. she is like that because she is a Lesbian"

    If it was a guy it would be " He's an arsehole".

  21. #21
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    Speaking of short shorts and our prudish North American sensitivities.

    Who here recalls Paola Pezzo and the uproar about her shorts being to short and her jersey being to open while racing?

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by shirk View Post
    So why is it you keep posting pictures of female volleyball chicks butts on here and NSMB?
    Just for you to help you sleep at night.


  23. #23
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    1. Ewww. At least you could have posted attractive man-butt. Generally, I'd prefer discussion of cycling on the forum, rather than objectification of either sex. It just isn't interesting. Unless it's REALLY relevant, I would ask that you not post pics of girls' bums.

    2. I don't believe sexism is gone from the workplace, but most of it is much more insidious and much less blatant than you suggest - and thus more difficult to combat. Whether anything is intended or not, it's simply difficult to work in a gender-imbalanced environment. The camaraderie that is so helpful to a career simply comes less naturally when you're the only woman in a workplace.

    3. None of this is particularly relevant to encouraging more women to mountain bike.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post
    Who here recalls Paola Pezzo and the uproar about her shorts being to short and her jersey being to open while racing?
    I don't remember the short shorts but I sure recall the controversy caused by the "gold medal bra" photo. Some of the letters to the editor in the mountain bike mags were truly something else.

  25. #25
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    crazy talk....

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  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockyuphill View Post
    crazy talk....
    That helmet is so retro! It's funny the little things that have changed.

    On a more serious note, I'd like to point out that it's stuff like this (posting girlie pics) that adds up to make women feel excluded from a community. I know each individual post is not meant badly, but the sum total of them becomes tiring after a while.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerdgirl View Post
    1. Ewww. At least you could have posted attractive man-butt. Generally, I'd prefer discussion of cycling on the forum, rather than objectification of either sex. It just isn't interesting. Unless it's REALLY relevant, I would ask that you not post pics of girls' bums.
    Well... of the two in the pic one happens to be a father of a girl.

    But the story gets better. The Thursday ride route includes the infamous tral STD. According to sources they where heavily propositioned and pursued by gentlemen of alternative lifestyle.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerdgirl View Post
    On a more serious note, I'd like to point out that it's stuff like this (posting girlie pics) that adds up to make women feel excluded from a community.
    Hmm... hard to say. More has to do with how repressive we are here..excluding Quebec. But that goes way beyond cycling.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerdgirl View Post
    3. None of this is particularly relevant to encouraging more women to mountain bike.
    It is a far bigger challenge then we want to admit. Some things I have observed.

    - Culturally for example there are some that will let girls do stuff like this but will go as far to prevent girls from participating. Noticed this in the Don Sunday.. saw lots of East Indian and such boys riding but never see the girls. It will take effort to get these groups to be involved as well as time. Because

    - Hard to know what to call this. After I moved to Toronto in 2002 I ran trails extensively in the Don and the Rouge. When it came to trail running women they where all white. Last year in August was the first time I ever saw women who where non WASP on the trails. Just like in the last year or two there is now a 4 man group of black guys riding the trails. Stuff that wasn't seen 5 years ago.

    - Perception is part of the problem. It's easier for women to see women riding road bikes then it is a mountain bike. So they will be more drawn to it. Much more visible then on the trails. So if say a black woman sees a bunch of black women riding road bikes she will be more inclined to do that as she won't feel as alone.

    - Let's look at this cultural example. In 2007 when we moved to Kingston there was maybe handful of black people here. Joely being the most visible in her role at Queens. Interestingly 4 years later we now have a larger resident black community. It's the reality that it takes one to step out of their comfort zone and then more will follow.

    -The majority really don't know much about mountain biking. More will know about road biking as that is what makes the sports news.
    Last edited by Enduramil; 07-26-2011 at 11:29 AM.

  29. #29
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    I don't know that it's really only a girl thing. I've lived in Ontario 20 years and never heard of Albion hills or Buckwallow or anything until I was introduced to the sport by a friend of mine. I had been trail running at Colsons and had seen people mountian biking, and even though I had a bike (rigid trail bike) would never have attempted it unless another woman mentioned it. Now I live for it!

    There are a couple of young (19-20) year old who came out to Colsons on their old CCM bikes and started doing the Wed night series and they Rock! Super fast, and they do really well. One girl is within the frontrunner in our category (who has been riding for a while) by 1 second! I love that! We ride on Monday nights and I help them with the more technical things they can't get.

    Most women are intimidated and think that they'll get hurt or that it's too hard or they can't do it. The only exposure they get is to see people flying around as fast as they can and that can be intimidating. They maybe don't realise that (to some of us anyway) there can be nothing better than a really beautiful day spent in the woods on a group ride with friends.

    There are loads of women interested. Just look at the Joyride womens weekend last year!

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starbuck50 View Post
    Most women are intimidated and think that they'll get hurt or that it's too hard or they can't do it. The only exposure they get is to see people flying around as fast as they can and that can be intimidating. They maybe don't realise that (to some of us anyway) there can be nothing better than a really beautiful day spent in the woods on a group ride with friends.
    Here's one to go with that.

    Gabi my daughter is going to summer daycamp while at her grannies in Scarborough. On Saturday when I came by she told me all this stuff about camp. She told me they where asking in her group last week things they love to do with their dad. The day before was mommy. Gabi said her favorite thing was running in the woods with daddy. Through the mud and falling in the mud.

    The girl leading her group tells her something about getting hurt and a pretty girl will get all muddy.

    Talked with this girl... monday morning. Her view is that girls will get hurt and such nonsense. I asked her would she be as worried about a boy which she said no. Her view was pretty girls don't do that stuff. Told the girl to please do not put restrictions on what my daughter thinks she can do.

  31. #31
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    Even if you're muddy you can still be pretty! Moron! Glad you took her to task over that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Starbuck50 View Post
    Even if you're muddy you can still be pretty! Moron! Glad you took her to task over that.
    and pretty girls can be happy being muddy... of course winning a medal will do that too.

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  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starbuck50 View Post
    Even if you're muddy you can still be pretty! Moron! Glad you took her to task over that.
    The best one was 4 months ago in front of her Auntie who is a TDSB teacher. She is telling her how this boy keeps pushing her around, hit her once, and so on. All they hear from daddy, "Kick him in the nuts and punch him on the way down."

    It's those darn Scottish genetics I tell you.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post
    The best one was 4 months ago in front of her Auntie who is a TDSB teacher. She is telling her how this boy keeps pushing her around, hit her once, and so on. All they hear from daddy, "Kick him in the nuts and punch him on the way down."

    It's those darn Scottish genetics I tell you.
    LOL!! I'm so happy to hear this! I'm glad we're not the only ones to tout those kinds of rules! I had my fair share of being pushed around when i was a kid and I don't want that for my daughter. At her daycare there was a Mom who would freak when she picked up her 3 year and she was dirty.. When I'd get there I'd say "Oh look at you! You look like you had fun!" My kid NEVER gets yelled at for being Muddy and having fun! Can't wait till she can come out on the trails with me!!!

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockyuphill View Post
    and pretty girls can be happy being muddy... of course winning a medal will do that too.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Awsome!

  36. #36
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    My 2 year old daughter did her first kids race this weekend at the Summer 8 hr. She seemed to love it, although I know she is still too young to decide what she wants to do. I know she likes "bike races" because Mom & Dad do it, but it also tells me that we can set a good example for her.

    I'm hoping against all hope that she takes to biking and loves it like I do, but I also know that she may not. I want her to love biking so that her and I have something to relate to. I know I need to make sure I don't force her and make it not fun for her. Both my wife and I have competitive personalities (my wife was on the National Field Hockey team) so I think our daughter *likely* will but who knows.

    If she ends up loving dance or art or whatever, than I'll just have to learn about those things so I can share it with her. All we can do is set a good example and encourage without pushing. We intend to introduce her to all kinds of sports and let her decide what she likes and if she wants to pursue them.

    I know that my father was slightly disappointed when I quit hockey to take up skiing, but he never showed it. He helped me with skiing just as much as hockey even though he wasn't a skier. Now that I'm older and can see what he did for me, I can see that it's the right thing to do and I want to do the same for my daughter!

  37. #37
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    Thought of this today.

    Now when I use Joely as an example this is a extreme case. In her case she comes from a national team athletic mentality... while in the Volleyball Canada system she has gone head first into stands to keep the ball in play, smacked off walls and net poles, bounced off concrete courts in Venezuela and Cuba, and what ever else. So is no stranger to high risk.

    When I got her involved in mountain biking was after she tried road bikes... wanting to bike a bit with me when I was training on easy days. Nomatter what could never get comfortable. She liked mountin bikes better. In 2006 she had something to do in Mississagau for VBall..took the bikes and she played on the easier stunts. Same year took her to Blue only got one run. But the best sign was in the Do when she took a hard slam trying to ride a 4 inch wide balance line. More mad that she screwed up.. didn't care about the bleeding shin. Was to wrapped up at the time with having her out.

    A few years later while looking at the pic's the light bulb shines. I'm looking at this for her with the wrong mentality. That is confirmed with the pics.. her focus and while nervous was pushing it more then I expected. Bingo, for this girl XC type riding is about as she is happier riding when their is risk involved. When she is on the edge between got it and "Oh, Frak". If it's a endurance type ride it's like riding a road bike and will not last. Add into this she has also was a sprinter.. trained at Riverdale Park with Charlie....*bows head*

    I can't blame myself for missing this. I was just happy that the woman I loved wanted to join in. Now when I look at it as a coach I see the challenge. It's also one we do need to pay attention to when we have girls and women getting involved. That being if we notice they are showing interest in a specific part- DH or DJing for example. Help them get the gear.

    I realize now that Joey's bike is holding her back for her style. So now we have the project to build one up to meet this. Needs to be tough and bomb proof. Details later....

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post
    I realize now that Joey's bike is holding her back for her style. So now we have the project to build one up to meet this. Needs to be tough and bomb proof. Details later....
    You're probably on the right track.

    A few years ago, when we were just getting back into riding in a more regular manner (as opposed to the occasional weekend warrior ride), we were still tooling around on 10 year-old Treks with geometry that was in vogue at the time. Specifically, Mrs. Monster's bike had a top-tube that was WAY too long for her. She wasn't comfortable on the bike at all but neither of us could really figure out what was the matter.

    In the meantime, I'd swapped bikes with a buddy (an Azonic D/S bike with a SS build) and it was a revelation. Bikes had changed and I needed a new one. I went down to the LBS the very next day and bought a Brodie One-Ball. Suddenly, riding was really fun again and I couldn't stop doing it (it's been all downhill from there )!

    Mrs. Monster was losing interest in MTB so at the next Spring Bike Show, I got a screaming-good deal on a small KHS Solo-One and gave it to her as an anniversary present. All of a sudden, we were out riding all the time and the rest, as they say, is history.

    So, that was my long-winded way of saying the right bike makes a HUGE difference. Good luck with the new build!
    Please enjoy seeing this terrible collection of me - something wonderful is about to happy.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster View Post
    You're probably on the right track.

    More likely Joely is a sprinter at heart. Her body and mind are wired that way. So endurance rides for her are mind numbing. So anything other then DH, sprints, and stunts won't be as stimulating. Weight of bike will not be a worry.

    Whe she gets back.. I'll be taking her to the BMX track to play around on mine. As it is looking more like what I ride is closer to what she will ride.
    Last edited by Enduramil; 08-06-2011 at 11:46 AM.

  40. #40
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    Need more caffine.
    Last edited by Enduramil; 09-16-2011 at 11:40 AM.

  41. #41
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    Self: Oh hay a necro'd thread I didn't really read through.

    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post
    Just for you to help you sleep at night.


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