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  1. #1
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    frustrating week on the trails

    riding at dufferin forest (mansfield) last weekend, it was unreal how rough the trails had become due to horses using all the single track which is not my biggest issue.
    The fact is none of these equastrian type will ever lift a finger to help build or maintain a trail but believe it is there god givin right to use them because they are there.
    we spent hours working on a large tree that had fallen over turning it into a very ridable log over making it fun for every level of rider depending on how you wanted to ride it.
    this feature was destoyed by the horses and even dangerous to bikes if you approached it from a certain side as you couln't see most of the smaller logs had been spread all over until you were commited to riding it.

    Without turning this into a debate of what albion is or isn't.
    the TRCA and Chico racing along with help from volunteers are making an attempt at making new trails more exciting and adding technical features
    An example is the 'pinecomb express" trail.
    Tuesday i found that the large uphill rock feature that has an easy way around had all the shrubs logs and even a small tree ripped out to make it a straightline past the rock.
    so I spent about 10 minutes collecting logs ,rocks and other S**t to build it back up making sure no sharp edges were sticking up in case some fall into it.
    last night it was all ripped apart again
    The time this individual or group of people spend ripping this apart could have been used to learn to ride over this feature ...or... just take the easy trail.

    once again I don't want to see this turn into what Albion is or isn't as I agree I'd like to see
    more features and tech stuff there but still enjoy riding there.

  2. #2
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    That rock on Pinecomb survived the O-Cup relatively unscathed but after lap 1 of Solstice, I think someone fell off the rock and landed on the tape. Once it was down, it was pretty much a free-for-all on the left side. Short of planting a big tree or fence post right there, I'm note sure it will ever stay as intended.
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  3. #3
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    I agree
    we need scott holmes to drop a second large rock their with the front end loader next time he's in helping build trails

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    I have tried building stuff here and there, and things seem to always get torn down. There are a couple of logs down in the Erindale Park upper trails. They are pretty close together and would make an awesome base for a small ladder type bridge. I actually have 3 long 12" wide by 1" thick planks to use. These would make a very strong structure. I actually measured everything and was ready to pre-cut and buy a couple of pieces of 4 X 4 for braces, but changed my mind once I remembered how things get torn apart. Not sure if it is the city or hikers or what. I am still considering it though. I will see if the trees are there next spring and will most likely build it then. I would hate to go the trouble and expense if the city intends or removing them anyway,

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    I think in a situation like albion the fun features should be built on the long way around routes and the straight through left as the easy one as these people are more concerned about their time and then they might leave them alone and the rest of us can have fun.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by trailtrash View Post
    I think in a situation like albion the fun features should be built on the long way around routes and the straight through left as the easy one as these people are more concerned about their time and then they might leave them alone and the rest of us can have fun.
    That's basically the Hydrocut model. And yet, you still get the odd whack-job trying to sabotage things.
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by trailtrash View Post
    I think in a situation like albion the fun features should be built on the long way around routes and the straight through left as the easy one as these people are more concerned about their time and then they might leave them alone and the rest of us can have fun.
    That's the general suggestion IMBA makes for features. It's a little tougher for trails designed for racing, because you want there to be some time benefit to those with the skill to ride the techy stuff and time penalty associated with doing the ride-around. In other words, if you chicken out, someone should be able to pass you on the tough line. Tough to reconcile that with recreational rides where it should be the opposite.

  8. #8
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    I agree wholeheartedly with everything in the first post, good job trailtrash!

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    Quote Originally Posted by trailtrash View Post
    Tuesday i found that the large uphill rock feature that has an easy way around had all the shrubs logs and even a small tree ripped out to make it a straightline past the rock.
    so I spent about 10 minutes collecting logs ,rocks and other S**t to build it back up making sure no sharp edges were sticking up in case some fall into it.
    last night it was all ripped apart again
    We've learned this the hard way out here. Numerous times you drop logs and crap randomly into a braided line in hopes that people will stick to the intended trail. More often than not it gets ripped back out by someone that likes the braid.

    The new method is to plant a big ass log vertically into the ground like a post. Then cut it off about a foot high. If it's a wide braid then a single post might not be enough. For the wide ones then several big logs are dragged into the area then spiked together with huge spikes to hold them all together into a super structure.

    Basically if it only took 10 minutes to close it will only take them 5 minutes to re-open. Four hours to close would take about two hours to re-open. We've found here on the Shore that if you want it to stay closed you need to put in half a day to do it permanently.

    Pretty chuffed to hear that the horse riders are over taking the trails in Dufferin. They used to only ride the roads and the abandon small side roads in there. We always had a run in with a particular female rider whom thought she owned the place. But she mostly rode on Saturday and Sunday mornings and 90% of the time we other places to ride on the weekends.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shirk View Post
    We've learned this the hard way out here. Numerous times you drop logs and crap randomly into a braided line in hopes that people will stick to the intended trail. More often than not it gets ripped back out by someone that likes the braid.

    The new method is to plant a big ass log vertically into the ground like a post. Then cut it off about a foot high. If it's a wide braid then a single post might not be enough. For the wide ones then several big logs are dragged into the area then spiked together with huge spikes to hold them all together into a super structure.

    Basically if it only took 10 minutes to close it will only take them 5 minutes to re-open. Four hours to close would take about two hours to re-open. We've found here on the Shore that if you want it to stay closed you need to put in half a day to do it permanently.

    Pretty chuffed to hear that the horse riders are over taking the trails in Dufferin. They used to only ride the roads and the abandon small side roads in there. We always had a run in with a particular female rider whom thought she owned the place. But she mostly rode on Saturday and Sunday mornings and 90% of the time we other places to ride on the weekends.
    I learned a lot from the IMBA Trail Care Crew about closing lines. Not only do they advocate "vertical deadfall" (exactly what you describe) but full on camouflage including transplanting so that it looks like there never was a trail there in the first place. Pretty remarkable what they can do, but it takes a lot of effort.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerdgirl View Post
    I learned a lot from the IMBA Trail Care Crew about closing lines. Not only do they advocate "vertical deadfall" (exactly what you describe) but full on camouflage including transplanting so that it looks like there never was a trail there in the first place. Pretty remarkable what they can do, but it takes a lot of effort.
    When SHCC closed a crappy section of the trail in Short Hills, prior to the camo, they roto-tilled the old tread.
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  12. #12
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    sometimes it is just people who don't know any better, I would think the best thing to do with some people is to talk to them nicely and educate them on trail etiquette, maybe offer to ride with them and help them with technique or show them the features can be ridden. I think sometimes it would just be some people who look at something like that and think there is no way anybody could ride that. I know a few years ago I would look at a feature and think there is no way that anybody is going to make it over that and this year I am easily clearing the same obstacle.

    Granted that this approach does not work for the horses or the hikers, I don't see too many people out there taking out features on a trail just to make it faster, I may be wrong though.

    When building features on multi use trail networks you need to remember that it is going to be used for walking dogs, hikers, trail runners, and horses there is no way to stop that so keep that in mind when building those log overs or bridges, a lot of equestrian riders do like the log overs just as much as we do.

    One of my favorite places to ride has some interesting ways to get around some of the problems that other user groups cause on bike trails, one of the interesting things that I see happens, I don't know if it is intentional or not but as you get further away from access points or as it parallels a double track the trails become more technical. plus as said before the Technical features are built off to the sides of the trails. The technical stuff built further away from access points means that less hikers or dog walkers will make it that far on the trails and will never see what is out there.
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerdgirl View Post
    That's the general suggestion IMBA makes for features. It's a little tougher for trails designed for racing, because you want there to be some time benefit to those with the skill to ride the techy stuff and time penalty associated with doing the ride-around. In other words, if you chicken out, someone should be able to pass you on the tough line. Tough to reconcile that with recreational rides where it should be the opposite.
    Personally, I’m doing the technical option even if it takes twice as long. If I have to pay $50+ to enter a race, I am not going to cheat myself of the maximum pleasure of riding the trail. I expect that if someone else prefers a smooth ride, they will feel the same way and ride the braid even if it takes them longer.

    My only kvetch is when race organizers take the features out entirely. But nobody is holding a gun to my head and forcing me to race, so I always have the option of riding somewhere else

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    Quote Originally Posted by jrastories View Post
    sometimes it is just people who don't know any better, I would think the best thing to do with some people is to talk to them nicely and educate them on trail etiquette, maybe offer to ride with them and help them with technique or show them the features can be ridden. I think sometimes it would just be some people who look at something like that and think there is no way anybody could ride that. I know a few years ago I would look at a feature and think there is no way that anybody is going to make it over that and this year I am easily clearing the same obstacle.
    Alas, I do not share your positive outlook on motivations. I am pretty sure that the kind of people who remove trail features are perfectly aware that they can be ridden. Some of them can ride the features when pressed, but they don’t want to ride the features and/or they don’t want to put in the work to learn how to ride the features, so they take it upon themselves to remove the feature.

    In my short career as a mountain biker, I have even met such people. They do not talk about removing a feature that makes the trail unrideable, they talk of removing a feature that makes the trail unrideable for “the majority of riders,” whomever those might be.

    Humans being humans, the forests are full of people who “could” do such-and-such, but choose not to do it right now. I’m a case in point: I could be fitter and faster, but I choose not to devote one or two of my limited weekly rides to pure fitness. Under the circumstances, I can appreciate the perspective that some riders could learn to ride over substantial obstacles, but choose not to devote the appropriate practice time to improving their skills.

    That being said, I do not show up with a shovel and replace a steep climb with some traversing switchbacks, and I wish that others would refrain from dismantling rideovers or building superhighway-width braids around features.

  15. #15
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    the most confusing aspect of this is there is a go around that already exists which might add 3 or 4 seconds onto the ride

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    Quote Originally Posted by trailtrash View Post
    the most confusing aspect of this is there is a go around that already exists which might add 3 or 4 seconds onto the ride
    Is the ride around marked?

    Does a rider have enough time to see the feature and make a decision to ride or not ride it and still turn onto the ride around?

    Placing ride arounds too soon before a feature is a bit of a failure. Most often if the rider does not know the trail they'll by-pass the ride around and get to the feature before knowing if they can ride it or not. Then they are forced to either walk the feature, turn back, or braid. The easiest possible option will be the one used.

    Sure in a perfect world every rider will ride up to the feature, look at it and make a sound decision to ride/walk/turn back. But we ain't living in a perfect world.

  17. #17
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    it's clearly marked but maybe not enough time as its on an uphill blind corner

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by shirk View Post
    we ain't living in a perfect world.
    Which is why we must continue to advocate, kvetch, agitate, and do everything we can to make it a better world. We ain’t living in a perfect world, but we are living in a world where things get better.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by shirk View Post
    We've learned this the hard way out here. Numerous times you drop logs and crap randomly into a braided line in hopes that people will stick to the intended trail. More often than not it gets ripped back out by someone that likes the braid.

    The new method is to plant a big ass log vertically into the ground like a post. Then cut it off about a foot high. If it's a wide braid then a single post might not be enough. For the wide ones then several big logs are dragged into the area then spiked together with huge spikes to hold them all together into a super structure.

    Basically if it only took 10 minutes to close it will only take them 5 minutes to re-open. Four hours to close would take about two hours to re-open. We've found here on the Shore that if you want it to stay closed you need to put in half a day to do it permanently.
    Where I got the idea from in 2006 when they reworked the Pottery Road trail in the Don. The Parks people kept whining that riders kept pulling out the blockages of the old line. And started riding them.

    Found this from the Natural High build thread. 2 others with me sketched out the plan. We approached them with the solution. They didn't want to listen.. continued whining and something about "If they loved the trails so much" stuff was said.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by trailtrash View Post
    I think in a situation like albion the fun features should be built on the long way around routes and the straight through left as the easy one as these people are more concerned about their time and then they might leave them alone and the rest of us can have fun.
    Just to play the evil one.

    So basically... the majority of non racers get's punished for the racer minorities general lack of skill.

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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster View Post
    That's basically the Hydrocut model. And yet, you still get the odd whack-job trying to sabotage things.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerdgirl View Post
    That's the general suggestion IMBA makes for features. It's a little tougher for trails designed for racing, because you want there to be some time benefit to those with the skill to ride the techy stuff and time penalty associated with doing the ride-around. In other words, if you chicken out, someone should be able to pass you on the tough line. Tough to reconcile that with recreational rides where it should be the opposite.
    This is really a problem that is being ignored with this thinking. This we are seeing in Crothers woods and has been mentioned in previous threads this year.

    Those challenges on the trails that people want removed serve a much greater purpose then a skill challenge. That being speed control. Crothers woods being a prime example, In the last 4 years as it uis worked by both iMBA and others has become really smooth. Great in theory untill you realize that speeds have increased big time.

    I know alot of people who refuse to ride this area because of the speed factor. And these are good riders.

    Who gives a rats arse if Sammy Sausage suit is inconvenienced by the ride around being slower and therefore fraks up his heart rate. Last I checked the majority riding trails don't care... people like Joely. And hopefully my daughter. I'd rather see you sausage suits being forced to slow down to take the easy way then have to chase you down to kill you because you ran over my kid for the sake of heart rate. See enough of this in the Don to be aware that it has a darn good chance of happening.

    Sorry... I know not all are like this. But I firmly believe there needs to be a mandatory OCA seminar on this yearly before being issued a race license.

  22. #22
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    As well as educate riders to take it easy with the racer stuff on the trails.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post
    As well as educate riders to take it easy with the racer stuff on the trails.
    Especially on free public trails, doubly so if there's trail users other than bikers. When you go to a place like Hardwood Hills, Mansfield or Kelso you know that there's going to be a number of racerheads doing full speed hot laps on the trails. They have a racecourse, racerheads are going to go fast, wtf can you do? I don't particularly like it but that's the way it is and that's the way it's been for as long as I can remember. But at least you know there's a racecourse there and there are people doing hot laps so you can take the appropriate precautions, which include not going to the damn place.

    On trails such as the Don, hot laps should be severely restricted to certain areas & times, if you want to ride full speed on a weekday when it's empty you'll probably get away with it, but on weekends, forget about it. It's not a 1-way racecourse and people aren't expecting to encounter racers. If someone's gonna ride full speed on such a trail he's an inconsiderate peckerhead who needs to be run into a tree.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by shirk View Post
    Pretty chuffed to hear that the horse riders are over taking the trails in Dufferin. They used to only ride the roads and the abandon small side roads in there. We always had a run in with a particular female rider whom thought she owned the place. But she mostly rode on Saturday and Sunday mornings and 90% of the time we other places to ride on the weekends.
    You should see it, from the looks of things OCTRA is turning the parking lot into a ****ing barn. I guess when you never have to clean up after yourself all your life you might be forgiven for assuming the county or some bikers will do it for you. After all, you pay taxes.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by trailtrash View Post
    An example is the 'pinecomb express" trail.
    Tuesday i found that the large uphill rock feature that has an easy way around had all the shrubs logs and even a small tree ripped out to make it a straightline past the rock.
    so I spent about 10 minutes collecting logs ,rocks and other S**t to build it back up making sure no sharp edges were sticking up in case some fall into it.
    last night it was all ripped apart again
    The time this individual or group of people spend ripping this apart could have been used to learn to ride over this feature ...or... just take the easy trail.
    Was there today, shocking, yes... didn't pay attention to a bypass as I went right over the rock...(the rock is still there) I also noticed on the sugar-shack section that one or maybe both of the "easy"/"hard" sections were covered over with branches. Perhaps the same group or user. Anyways.

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    on the sugar shack the 2nd easy hard had a large tree fall across making the hard now the easy and the easy hard with quite a drop after the log.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by aerius View Post
    If someone's gonna ride full speed on such a trail he's an inconsiderate peckerhead who needs to be run into a tree.
    Couple of points to add.

    - I found this funny when I returned to Triathlon the racer head mentality. In my age group everyone I raced against worried about split times, laps, lap times, HRM, SRM,blah blah blah. Yet me the old school relic dirtbag stomped them at every race... all the while it was treated as fun. Telling bad jokes and what not in raining rides.

    - For those who don't know me I have and can be a racer head. When it comes to mountain biking I find riding more fun then racing as well as taking lines others don't. I'm better built for Du or the bike run portion of a Tri... no skill more of a Mike Pigg like beating. But I do know when to tone down the racer head. Like when I have a kid in a race not to crowd him and wait for a good time to pass. Last arsehat I saw do that was in 2007 at Albion on a Tuesday nighter. Passed the MIQ and spent the rest of it pissing off the meat head with out standing blocking techniques.

    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    Was there today, shocking, yes... didn't pay attention to a bypass as I went right over the rock...(the rock is still there) I also noticed on the sugar-shack section that one or maybe both of the "easy"/"hard" sections were covered over with branches. Perhaps the same group or user. Anyways.
    Is the rock higher then 6 inches? If so it must be removed immediately as it is a infraction of human rights and is disciminatory.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post
    Is the rock higher then 6 inches? If so it must be removed immediately as it is a infraction of human rights and is disciminatory.
    Bike riding parrots worldwide agree with you wholeheartedly. How can anyone expect a 2" wheel to make it up and over a 6" rock? Total dumbass trail design.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post
    Is the rock higher then 6 inches? If so it must be removed immediately as it is a infraction of human rights and is disciminatory.
    lol..Nature is discriminatory! It must be stopped!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post
    Is the rock higher then 6 inches? If so it must be removed immediately as it is a infraction of human rights and is disciminatory.
    I think so - I was worried I would have to buy a 36r to roll over it without grinding my carbon crank set to pieces. Fortunately the rock is not angled at 90 degrees, but sloping in a manner such that it's height is mitigated. Even still at such a slow speed I had to fight an epic struggle against my 29r wagon wheel to keep it from floundering allover the rock.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BrokenAnimator View Post
    lol..Nature is discriminatory! It must be stopped!
    Why do you think humans invented bulldozers and nuclear weapons?

  32. #32
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    yeah, I was so excited after riding the Pinecomb for the first time...

    Loved the big rock and the rock garden...

    Then during the 24 hours of SS I spotted the cheater line and almost hit the tree on the other side of the rock as my mind was processing what I thought I saw... WTF??? I do not think it is a faster line at all, as one must slow down and negotiate it pretty carefully not to rip of the rear der...
    I do not necessarily think it was someone who was concerned about his time - as Tuesday nighters would not allow for something like this to happen, nor condone it... Pretty sure this was a weekend warrior on a CT or WM bike who is not familiar with the concept of easy line around the rock... Just my guess...

    Going over the rock is faster than going around it, or at least the same speed if the opening is wide enough...

    I hope Chico puts a stop to this with another giant size rock or Shirk's solution...

    Though some characters on this board try to imply that XC sausage suits would do things like this - I can put my money on the bet that most if not all people on this board support the direction that Chico is taking, with introduction of technical features on trails they build, even at the level that they are at right now...

    This year's O-Cup courses are MORE TECHNICAL than last year's courses - can't wait the provincials...

    Quote Originally Posted by trailtrash View Post
    I think in a situation like albion the fun features should be built on the long way around routes and the straight through left as the easy one as these people are more concerned about their time and then they might leave them alone and the rest of us can have fun.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aerius View Post
    Why do you think humans invented bulldozers and nuclear weapons?
    Quite, don;t let the albiotards find out about these tools, I am sure they would use them to make the trails safe for everybody

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo View Post
    ...try to imply that XC sausage suits would do things like this - I can put my money on the bet that most if not all people on this board support the direction that Chico is taking, with introduction of technical features on trails they build, even at the level that they are at right now...

    This year's O-Cup courses are MORE TECHNICAL than last year's courses - can't wait the provincials...
    YES! You're right! The sausage suits... I had almost forgotten about them and their greed for hot laps and courses as smooth as their carefully coiffed legs. Though it was probably the smaller sausages, more of the snausage types, who are up to no good this time.

    Here comes one now!!!

    Dastardly.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by trailtrash View Post
    riding at dufferin forest (mansfield) last weekend, it was unreal how rough the trails had become due to horses using all the single track which is not my biggest issue.
    The fact is none of these equastrian type will ever lift a finger to help build or maintain a trail but believe it is there god givin right to use them because they are there.
    we spent hours working on a large tree that had fallen over turning it into a very ridable log over making it fun for every level of rider depending on how you wanted to ride it.
    this feature was destoyed by the horses and even dangerous to bikes if you approached it from a certain side as you couln't see most of the smaller logs had been spread all over until you were commited to riding it.

    Without turning this into a debate of what albion is or isn't.
    the TRCA and Chico racing along with help from volunteers are making an attempt at making new trails more exciting and adding technical features
    An example is the 'pinecomb express" trail.
    Tuesday i found that the large uphill rock feature that has an easy way around had all the shrubs logs and even a small tree ripped out to make it a straightline past the rock.
    so I spent about 10 minutes collecting logs ,rocks and other S**t to build it back up making sure no sharp edges were sticking up in case some fall into it.
    last night it was all ripped apart again
    The time this individual or group of people spend ripping this apart could have been used to learn to ride over this feature ...or... just take the easy trail.

    once again I don't want to see this turn into what Albion is or isn't as I agree I'd like to see
    more features and tech stuff there but still enjoy riding there.

    yeah duff, the horse camp is pretty entenched and has a strong lobby group.

    the only solution is to build a trail that horses can't go on...

    the problem is the people building the technical features do not have alot of experience in that area and it shows. they should ask for help and input from stakeholders and the community who has experience in such areas. also establish a trail plan that directs where such features should be placed on the trails. putting tech features on a racing trail is kinda silly. building a dedicated tech trail makes much more sense, but then you can't use that trail for racing.
    Last edited by singlesprocket; 08-06-2011 at 04:50 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post
    Who gives a rats arse if Sammy Sausage suit is inconvenienced by the ride around being slower and therefore fraks up his heart rate. Last I checked the majority riding trails don't care... people like Joely. And hopefully my daughter. I'd rather see you sausage suits being forced to slow down to take the easy way then have to chase you down to kill you because you ran over my kid for the sake of heart rate. See enough of this in the Don to be aware that it has a darn good chance of happening.

    Sorry... I know not all are like this. But I firmly believe there needs to be a mandatory OCA seminar on this yearly before being issued a race license.

    I don't understand this "racers like flat fast courses" at all. A few points to back this up.

    take a look though the XC and racing boards, there is tons of posts on there asking how to ride corners better, tight single track better, decend better. But there is never a how do I make a trail that is going to be faster thread.

    Every time on this board when people think a course is not technical enough it is noted and a lot of complaining is done about it. When there is cool tech stuff like the boneshaker and pincone express that is what everybody talks about as it being really fun. Chico listened and put in rock gardens and some big rock overs at woodnewton, and albion.

    Personally I race and I ride for fun, I take people out who have never ridden before, I love riding the toughest line that I can find, a lot of the time that works out for me and is a bit faster. I like having the easy go arounds for when I ride with people who are starting out and would be intimidated by some of the features. As said by many of you diversity and progression is the key.

    I will agree that any inconsiderate person who is ripping though the trail with no respect for slower or young riders is a @#$%bag, but I will not put them as a racer.
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  37. #37
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    agreed...

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    Quote Originally Posted by jrastories View Post
    I will agree that any inconsiderate person who is ripping though the trail with no respect for slower or young riders is a @#$%bag, but I will not put them as a racer.
    Yes inconsiderate people are the worst, but that is why usually trails are separated by skill level to avoid these types of situations and if the rider is on a beginner trail they will know to take it easy passing people.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster View Post
    When SHCC closed a crappy section of the trail in Short Hills, prior to the camo, they roto-tilled the old tread.

    We managed to get Chad and Dianne from the IMBA TCC back to Short Hills Park a few weeks ago before they headed East once again.

    They had to chance to ride the competed section of Trail #2 in Short Hills Park and they were blown away at the regen area we started with them.
    Their words... "Thats the most successful regeneration and transplant section we've ever had".
    It was a lot of work but you can not tell were the original trail was.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jrastories View Post
    I don't understand this "racers like flat fast courses" at all.
    Because they do. Even if they say they don't, they do. I know when I was racing I loved to have a flat smooth course because it's the easiest to ride and look cool for your friends and family.

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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo View Post

    Then during the 24 hours of SS I spotted the cheater line and almost hit the tree on the other side of the rock as my mind was processing what I thought I saw... WTF??? I do not think it is a faster line at all, as one must slow down and negotiate it pretty carefully not to rip of the rear der...
    Thank you for revealing your racing mental weakness. Look forward to hearing how others will exploit this in the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lwhicker View Post
    Because they do. Even if they say they don't, they do. I know when I was racing I loved to have a flat smooth course because it's the easiest to ride and look cool for your friends and family.
    It's the same mentality I dealt with racing Tri and Du in Ontario. The one course they loved was at NOTL. 4 turns and miles of straight...no hills. It was the only one people didn't complain about the corners and hills. I know people who wouldn't race the C3 race at Caledon because there was to many turns. Wouldn't put in the effort to get good at cornering. Had one guy try to get me DG'd because I was to good at cornering... lots of practice.

    That's what it boils down to. It takes alot of mental effort to work on things like say great making right turns but crappy at left turns. and the effort it takes to work on this.

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post
    It's the same mentality I dealt with racing Tri and Du in Ontario. The one course they loved was at NOTL. 4 turns and miles of straight...no hills. It was the only one people didn't complain about the corners and hills. I know people who wouldn't race the C3 race at Caledon because there was to many turns. Wouldn't put in the effort to get good at cornering. Had one guy try to get me DG'd because I was to good at cornering... lots of practice.
    Reminds me of an old joke:

    There’s a cattleman’s convention, and a Texan corners an Albertan at the buffet line. “Say,” he drawls, “How bigg’r yer ranches up in Key-yan-a-duh? Mine’s so big, I kin gett’n mah truck, point’r in any direct-shun, and drive a day-un-a-night without reach’n the edge-a muh property.” The Albertan nods, puts another rack of bronto-ribs on his plate, and speaks thoughtfully: “I used to have a truck just like that.”
    Meaning, of course, that when faced with a challenge, we can raise ourselves up to meet it or try to pull it down to our current level. The same goes for riders like myself who don’t want to put in the effort to improve our fitness. It’s no good agitating for technical features that will slow the fast riders down, just as they ought to bring their skills up, we ought to bring our fitness up too. The whole point of the exercise is to exit the season a better rider, and the best way to do that is to work on our weaknesses, not look for ways to do races and rides that play to our strengths.

  44. #44
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    hmm, very well said...

  45. #45
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    how about making Sandra Bullock

    a Marshal #2 wearing a bikini?

    I know I couldn't miss that tree under such tough circumstances..



    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post
    Thank you for revealing your racing mental weakness. Look forward to hearing how others will exploit this in the future.

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by raganwald View Post
    The whole point of the exercise is to exit the season a better rider, and the best way to do that is to work on our weaknesses, not look for ways to do races and rides that play to our strengths.
    Statistics show that racer heads when it comes to technical challenges and skill deevelopment have larger fear centres.
    Last edited by Enduramil; 08-06-2011 at 10:49 AM.

  47. #47
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    i notice some taking a poke at racer heads liking smooth courses.
    I don't consider myself a racer head
    i ride for fun and am constantly trying to improve my tech skill levels (still have a lot to learn)
    sure i've done a # of epic 8's and 24 hrs but mostly for the social aspect of it and to push my conditioning level.
    what i have noticed at these races are the so called racer heads that also race "o cups"
    always seem to impress me with there technical skills.
    for the most part (with some exceptions) they will take the tech line over the rocks and logs and look good doing it

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by trailtrash View Post
    what i have noticed at these races are the so called racer heads that also race "o cups"
    always seem to impress me with there technical skills.
    for the most part (with some exceptions) they will take the tech line over the rocks and logs and look good doing it
    That only makes sense. Scratch the surface of any racer and all you'll find is someone who enjoys riding their bike. Why else would you be out there? Money? Fame? Not bloody likely!
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  49. #49
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    +1
    wouldn't add or subtract anything.

  50. #50
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    +(+1). If what you want is fame, you don’t ride, you post on mtbr.com.

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket View Post
    yeah duff, the horse camp is pretty entenched and has a strong lobby group.

    the only solution is to build a trail that horses can't go on...

    the problem is the people building the technical features do not have alot of experience in that area and it shows. they should ask for help and input from stakeholders and the community who has experience in such areas. also establish a trail plan that directs where such features should be placed on the trails. putting tech features on a racing trail is kinda silly. building a dedicated tech trail makes much more sense, but then you can't use that trail for racing.
    partially agree
    i don't see a problem with some tech features on a race course as it should also test your riding skills but not turn the whole trail into a tech trail.
    building a dedicated tech trail running parallel to the race trail does make sense.
    giving people the option should cut down the destruction of tech features
    yes these trails are used for racing but how many times a year (3 -4 times)

  52. #52
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    Ditto. Case in point: apparently all moderators know me for I am famous now. Infamous I should say, I guess.

    Better go back riding. Don't like this kind of fame.

  53. #53
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    You must calm down.

  54. #54
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    At the cost of starting to sound like a broken record - well said. I don't mind tech features on the race course at all, if built properly with easy lines for beginners. I don't advocate sanitized trails to kids either. Quite to the contrary, teaching my kid to ride skinnies, over logs and small jumps etc.

    Most XC racers are just ordinary riders who have AM rigs at least, in their stable and if your name is Garage Monster, the list doesn't stop there. Not at all.

    Smiley with both thumbs up.

  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by trailtrash View Post
    yes these trails are used for racing but how many times a year (3 -4 times)
    yup not really fair use of resources. thus the importance of a trail plan and equable community representation. as a member of the humber watershed alliance i see the importance of adding plans/guidelines that are in tune with overall policy. in the end we all win.
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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo View Post
    Most XC racers are just ordinary riders who have AM rigs at least, in their stable and if your name is Garage Monster, the list doesn't stop there. Not at all.
    I'm more of a practioner of the Warren Methodology... more satisfying to beat those on fancy bikes while riding what is essentially an 88 clunker....May she rest in piece.

    Though the best one had to be the C3 race I did it on the cross bike with knobby tires buzzing away. Could feel the hate.

  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by trailtrash View Post
    The fact is none of these equastrian type will ever lift a finger to help build or maintain a trail but believe it is there god givin right to use them because they are there.

    To be fair, trails for horses don't need to be maintained almost at all. Having a 1000lb animal marching through a forest is usually enough to clear a path. They're probably not even thinking about things like trail maintenance (the riders, not the horses).

    I don't understand how the two can share trails to begin with tbh.

  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by trailtrash View Post
    what i have noticed at these races are the so called racer heads that also race "o cups"
    always seem to impress me with there technical skills.
    for the most part (with some exceptions) they will take the tech line over the rocks and logs and look good doing it
    When I raced most racers would take the smooth and easy line over any tech feature, alot like most riders out on the trails when they come up to anything that poses a "risk".

    About horses on trails its all good as they need trail access too though I do hate hoof prints in soft/wet ground then it hardens too.
    Riding F/S since oct 94'

  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperNewb View Post
    When I raced most racers would take the smooth and easy line over any tech feature, alot like most riders out on the trails when they come up to anything that poses a "risk".
    In my experience, racers aren't interested so much in the smoothest line, as they are in the quickest line accessible by their individual skill level, condition, and risk management for in-race tactics. That is racing, by definition. Watch some of the world's best technical riders at world cup DH races with line selection. If the fastest line is also the smoothest line within a particular section, you can bet your house that's the line they will take.

    Different riders obviously have different levels of competency in navigating trickier but potentially quicker lines, that sometimes may need to be tempered by condition (level of fatigue) and also race tactics in which sometimes there is reason to take on a bit more risk to carve out a few tenths of a second versus in response to gaps opening or closing relative to the riders around you.

  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperNewb View Post
    When I raced most racers would take the smooth and easy line over any tech feature, alot like most riders out on the trails when they come up to anything that poses a "risk".
    Once there was a horse tied up on the side of the street. Whenever someone tried to pass, the horse would kick them. Soon a crowd gathered around the horse until a wise man was seen coming close. The people said “This horse will surely kill anyone who tries to pass. What are we going to do?” The wise man looked at the horse, turned and walked down another street.

  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip View Post
    In my experience, racers aren't interested so much in the smoothest line, as they are in the quickest line accessible by their individual skill level, condition, and risk management for in-race tactics. That is racing, by definition. Watch some of the world's best technical riders at world cup DH races with line selection. If the fastest line is also the smoothest line within a particular section, you can bet your house that's the line they will take.
    I learned that lesson at Worlds last year at MSA. We walked a bunch of the DH course between practice rounds and I (naturally) was busy picking lines (keeping in mind that my go-to bike is a rigid SS). I was actually quite surprised to see a bunch of the riders using the same lines during the race. Huh!
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  62. #62
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    interestingly enough, sir

    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip View Post
    Watch some of the world's best technical riders at world cup DH races with line selection. If the fastest line is also the smoothest line within a particular section, you can bet your house that's the line they will take.
    .
    this is exactly what i was thinking about today, during some intellectually boring moments on the way to O-Cup #6 race at Kelso.

    The premise of racing is to get to the finish line as fast as you can. If that includes going over the rock to save time - so be it. But if going around the rock is faster (or safer - which was implied by you sir, depending on the skill level) then it is going to be around the rock if it is available or CX dismount and run.

    Thank you.

  63. #63
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    priceless...

    thanks for the laugh...

  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo View Post
    this is exactly what i was thinking about today, during some intellectually boring moments on the way to O-Cup #6 race at Kelso.

    The premise of racing is to get to the finish line as fast as you can. If that includes going over the rock to save time - so be it. But if going around the rock is faster (or safer - which was implied by you sir, depending on the skill level) then it is going to be around the rock if it is available or CX dismount and run.
    I believe now that te problem we are having with this discussion is that we are talking about racer heads in 2 different situations. Those being training ride vs race.

    My focus is training rides and racer head types. There are those who seem to think to often that race pace type rides are a good idea on no closed off trails. this is a ludicrous idea. This would be like running the Olympic DH on Whistler with no fences and Joe Public every where. Stupid idea.

  65. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post

    My focus is training rides and racer head types. There are those who seem to think to often that race pace type rides are a good idea on no closed off trails. this is a ludicrous idea. This would be like running the Olympic DH on Whistler with no fences and Joe Public every where. Stupid idea.
    Discussing that issue is waste of time. It is ludicrous and perpetrators should be dealt with without mercy.

    I think it is fine to go fast if circumstances allow (no traffic), but slow down safely for passing or in blind corners. Passing should not be attempted on singletrack etc...

    Can we move on now? Please?

  66. #66
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    Hey trailtrash..I was riding mansfield on sunday (in the pouring rain) and did notice that on "Kens Trail" someone had built a log over a downed tree. If that's the one you mean then its all fixed up! Also "Thanks" to whoever cleaned up the trail that the loggers destroyed a couple of months ago.
    The trails there are much better now that we got some rain on them. Just some horse poop to deal with.
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  67. #67
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    thanks for the update

  68. #68
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    "Mountain Bike" race idea!

    Cheater trails that short cut any kind of difficult stuff, races that are a road ride in the forest with next to no technical stuff, ect, ect; it's my opinion that racing scene over the years seems to be getting further and further away from the roots of what "mountain biking" started out as... Taking a bicycle off road and making it do things that it wasn't meant to normally do, challenge the ability and limits of both rider and equipment. Now logs are removed, rocks are painted pink, carbon fibre hardtails and spandex are the norm and we ride 8-15km NASCAR loops and heaven forbid there is something that may damage a big ring.
    If you have interest in returning back to something different here's an e-mail that I've sent Dan at Substance Projects about an idea that I've had for a while...if it's something you have interest in sent him a note at substanceprojects.
    Put the "mountain" back in biking. Dan puts a lot into his events and they are unique. Check out Substance Projects...


    Hey Dan, Thanks again for the mansfield event, we all had a great time. Another style of event that I've always longed for a dedicated (or mostly) single track course that has riders leave in a staggered start (as opposed to a mass start) 15 seconds or so apart like you do in the rally. You could start 2 at a time and have a short double track ( 1/2 km) then into single track for the majority of the race. Lots of riders I know are quite intimidated by mass starts and the congo lines that form at the start. The for example is myself...I'm definitely not a roady so the long fire road starts suck for me because I have too much drag with my hairy legs and baggy shorts to compete. As far as passing on single track, I don't believe it would be much of a problem as there is always space somewhere and at least your only passing one person at a time. It's really nasty when you need to pass a group or a group wants to pass you and there are multiple riders involved. On the registration form, riders could indicate their level for general starting position (engine, rail car or caboose ). Then it's based on first to last of time of registration for each category. I know this kind of race would by very interesting to a group of riders that I pleasure ride with, but don't like the racing atmosphere. Anyway, there you have it... Let me know what you think! If you need a 30ish singletrackish loop in Mansfield I've got a great one that I use that takes in almost every single track in Duffern and Simcoe Forests with almost no sausagesuit, I mean fire road. We're all allowed to dream! Thank's again for the raspberry clean up and for holding fun events....

  69. #69
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    Welcome to the forum Hekler!

    MTB time trials are great. Many participants on this forum have done the Wow MTB Hilton Falls time trial in the past, and time trial stages are also part of many of the multi-day MTB stage races around the world now.

    Also make sure to stick around here for the next Substance Projects event thread - it's usually a very active discussion project on this forum prior to and following each of the Substance Projects events (Dan posts here occasionally too in relation to his events).

  70. #70
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    welcome aboard hekler.
    I like the sound of that, it would be something different and new around here.
    the staggered start would be fun.

  71. #71
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    Although it's not 30k, this is almost the exact format the SHCC uses for the Frostbike in February. Check it out; it's a load of fun!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hekler View Post
    Cheater trails that short cut any kind of difficult stuff, races that are a road ride in the forest with next to no technical stuff, ect, ect; it's my opinion that racing scene over the years seems to be getting further and further away from the roots of what "mountain biking" started out as...
    Agreed, these riders who wear spandex and just want to hammer on pedals without any obstacles are just wannabe roadies. The whole idea of mountain biking is to over come obstacles and ride terrain a normal cyclist can't because of skill. Not who is the fastest, which just becomes a fit test than mountain bike handling skills and dumbs things down.

  73. #73
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    So like I mentioned, lets give Dan some encouragement and send him an e-mail supporting this kind of race format...maybe something will start to change. He's also mentioned about a race at Haliburton Forest next year. I did the race he held there a couple of years ago in his half marathon series and it was great (really tough, but isn't that the point!) Still had fair bit of fire road, but it was fun. I would love to do Haliburton with more single track and an offset paired start. It is interesting how people like to "dumb down" the trails. I wish riders would spend time developing skills instead of time making stuff around anything difficult. It's too bad that a riders level is judged by speed, not tech ability or even their willingness to try something outside their comfort level. I'm way more impressed by a beginner rider on a CCM that makes a log for the first time then someone who can ride 30km/hr on a fire road on a sub-25lb bike. Our theory is if there is a chainring mark on something then it means someone is trying or doing the obstacle (maybe my girlfriend) and just because you can do it it doesn't give you the right to alter it. Anyway back to work, more later...see ya, Hekle, hekle!

  74. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hekler View Post
    Our theory is if there is a chainring mark on something then it means someone is trying or doing the obstacle (maybe my girlfriend) and just because you can do it it doesn't give you the right to alter it. Anyway back to work, more later...see ya, Hekle, hekle!
    If you read through the various posts in this I think you'll see the concept above is upheld almost universally, including by those who participate in existing XC race events.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hekler View Post
    So like I mentioned, lets give Dan some encouragement and send him an e-mail supporting this kind of race format...maybe something will start to change. He's also mentioned about a race at Haliburton Forest next year. I did the race he held there a couple of years ago in his half marathon series and it was great (really tough, but isn't that the point!) Still had fair bit of fire road, but it was fun. I would love to do Haliburton with more single track and an offset paired start. It is interesting how people like to "dumb down" the trails. I wish riders would spend time developing skills instead of time making stuff around anything difficult. It's too bad that a riders level is judged by speed, not tech ability or even their willingness to try something outside their comfort level. I'm way more impressed by a beginner rider on a CCM that makes a log for the first time then someone who can ride 30km/hr on a fire road on a sub-25lb bike.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lwhicker View Post
    Agreed, these riders who wear spandex and just want to hammer on pedals without any obstacles are just wannabe roadies. The whole idea of mountain biking is to over come obstacles and ride terrain a normal cyclist can't because of skill. Not who is the fastest, which just becomes a fit test than mountain bike handling skills and dumbs things down.
    Agree to disagree. My ideal mountain bike race and course requires a healthy dose of both fitness and skill. Luckily, there are many different events, and even different disciplines within mountain biking to choose from. Even those disciplines of competition that place the highest emphasis on skills, which are probably DH and trials respectively, require many physical talents and extreme "fitness" although trending away from aerobic conditioning instead to abilities that involve more explosive bursts of power, but also balance, agility, etc. All of these are required for traditional XC also even in its current format, but in a different mix.

    Hundreds and even sometimes thousands of riders already choose with their entry fees and time to participate in the currently available XC events, and other disciplines also. They aren't being forced into it, so it's a logical assumption they enjoy those events.

    That doesn't mean they wouldn't enjoy other new events and formats also though. To that end, I've seen people who are keenly motivated to foster interest in a new format actually become organizers themselves. Dan is a great example!

    The vast majority of race organizers in Ontario choose to run their events with the backing of the Ontario Cycling Association ( Ontario Cycling Association ) but you may also choose to investigate alternate sources of insurance coverage if you wish (almost always required by the landowner). Or perhaps inquire with an existing mountain bike club to see if they want to partner with you on the project, or even an existing promoter to operate as an "apprentice" under for organizing that specific event? Between Lwhicker and Hekler you are already 2 interested people, and I'm sure there would be others. Whether the event gets tens, or hundreds, or more I have no idea but quantity isn't really a big deal so long as everyone has a good time.

    Good luck, whether it's as an organizer or participant!

  75. #75
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    i wear spandex, use clipless

    but don't shave legs, or any other body area, for that matter. I like obstacles and i go over them, not around. As long as i dont have to launch more than 2 feet of air. I go around those.

    When I was at Horseshoe park yesterday, I put my baggies on - don't bother me at all. Had a blast riding few TTFs out there as well.

    Where does this place me in your grouping, as I also like to race XC - dont care if there are any obstacles on the course or not. If there are - I will ride them. If not - the world is not over for me - I will still have fun.

    Time Trial type of start is used mostly for short races, like All Weather Challenge at Hilton Falls. I raced that race as well in my sausage suit and rode all those rocks not noticing any pink paint on them. It was wet and muddy and maybe that is why they could not paint them, but it was still fun.

    I hope you guys were there enjoying the rain storm delay in cold temps but still racing the race this past spring. Those that showed up had a blast.There were few sausage suits, few baggies, few clipless, few platforms, few girls, few boys and everyone enjoyed it without exception.

    Still trying to understand what needs to be done to accommodate as many riders as possible. If that includes Time Trial start for a race that takes 5+ hours - so be it.

    A "good" example of the course at Mansfield for Dan's marathon - in my books - not much more technically challenged than any other course ie Ganaraska, Albion, Durham etc. Way less technically challenging than Haliburton, Buckwallow, Hilton Falls and even Kelso.

    If all sausage suits put on baggies and race - would it be more enjoyable for everyone?

    Currently I am researching the intrawebz for data regarding the wind drag when racing with unshaven legs. I will publish the scientific paper shortly, so that everyone can benefit from it. Based on empirical data collected so far, those that shave legs are much faster than those that dont - must be something there...

    Quote Originally Posted by Lwhicker View Post
    Agreed, these riders who wear spandex and just want to hammer on pedals without any obstacles are just wannabe roadies. The whole idea of mountain biking is to over come obstacles and ride terrain a normal cyclist can't because of skill. Not who is the fastest, which just becomes a fit test than mountain bike handling skills and dumbs things down.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip View Post
    Agree to disagree. My ideal mountain bike race and course requires a healthy dose of both fitness and skill.
    Yeah, did anyone say otherwise? No. Not even sure what you are disagreeing with.

    Riding a MTB course with no obstacles and man made to be smooth is just road riding in the forest (borrowed line). XC should be a little of all disciplines mixed together, not just a fitness test.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lwhicker View Post
    Riding a MTB course with no obstacles and man made to be smooth is just road riding in the forest (borrowed line). XC should be a little of all disciplines mixed together, not just a fitness test.
    Then I think Provincials would be just the course for you! Ya, sure, you'll need a bit of fitness to get up the ski hill but once you get in the single track, tech will separate the wheat from the "roadies" in short order!
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    Back to the point...if anyone has interest in a different race format, give Dan a shout.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lwhicker View Post
    Yeah, did anyone say otherwise? No. Not even sure what you are disagreeing with.
    OK, so we're not disagreeing then - great.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lwhicker View Post
    Riding a MTB course with no obstacles and man made to be smooth is just road riding in the forest (borrowed line). XC should be a little of all disciplines mixed together, not just a fitness test.
    Funny thing I've learned in my racing experiences is that the fastest riders on smoother courses usually demonstrate that they are also the fastest and most skilled riders when the courses get more technical. This is a generalization, and there's always exceptions.

    If you are interested in formal racing (a lot of people aren't and enjoy their riding just fine without it) and want to participate only in those events which are more technically demanding, then doing a close examination of the event calendar and talking to other riders should offer up some opportunities for you to cherry-pick the more technical events and courses to maximize your chance of enjoying your outings.

    It's a truism to say that different courses and events will never be 100% homongenized, and the mix of fitness to skill required to excel at different events will always vary.

    If no events currently exist that suit your tastes, I've given some suggestions already in this thread to consider starting up a new event, or there's also Hekler's suggestion to try to drum up some interest with Dan at Substance Projects.

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    I didn't think you would have a sensible answer...

    Good luck with new format. I am sure I will like it as well and see you there...

    Quote Originally Posted by Hekler View Post
    Back to the point...if anyone has interest in a different race format, give Dan a shout.

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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo View Post

    Still trying to understand what needs to be done to accommodate as many riders as possible. If that includes Time Trial start for a race that takes 5+ hours - so be it.
    TT style starts with 30 second gaps between riders would lesson the usual pile up at the first turn, root section, mud pit, and so on.

    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo View Post
    Currently I am researching the intrawebz for data regarding the wind drag when racing with unshaven legs. I will publish the scientific paper shortly, so that everyone can benefit from it. Based on empirical data collected so far, those that shave legs are much faster than those that dont - must be something there...
    As a recovering Tri Geek it was never for aerodynamics. It was firstly to show off our calves and secondly getting leg hair ripped out during a massage sucks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post
    TT style starts with 30 second gaps between riders would lesson the usual pile up at the first turn, root section, mud pit, and so on.
    For our club MTB hill climbs, we do 1 minute gaps, seeded (estimated) fastest to slowest and it works out great!
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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster View Post
    For our club MTB hill climbs, we do 1 minute gaps, seeded (estimated) fastest to slowest and it works out great!
    For hill climbs, which traditionally have a lot of width, that format works out great since all riders tend to finish in a relatively tight timeframe so that the entire schedule is compact and riders don't have to wait around very long at the finish for the event to conclude.

    However, if the objective were to have a higher degree of technical challenge and more singletrack, I'm not sure sure the same concept applies as well.

  84. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post
    TT style starts with 30 second gaps between riders would lesson the usual pile up at the first turn, root section, mud pit, and so on.
    so if you have 200 riders, times 30 seconds, equals 6000, divided by 3600, equals 1 hour 40 minutes.

    so the last rider out will start 1 hour and 40 minutes behind the first rider. Given the differences between riders - that will add 1 hour and 40 minutes to the expected arrival time. It may make the day really long for some, particularly the organizer. Good luck with that. It does not address the issue though, as if slower riders start first - they would get caught pretty quickly, most likely in the singletrack, by the faster riders. Same problem...



    As a recovering Tri Geek it was never for aerodynamics. It was firstly to show off our calves and secondly getting leg hair ripped out during a massage sucks.
    My data shows otherwise. Others would confirm as well. Shaven=Faster. There is no doubt in my mind. The only questions is by how much. I am working on the formula as we speak.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip View Post
    For hill climbs, which traditionally have a lot of width, that format works out great since all riders tend to finish in a relatively tight timeframe so that the entire schedule is compact and riders don't have to wait around very long at the finish for the event to conclude.

    However, if the objective were to have a higher degree of technical challenge and more singletrack, I'm not sure sure the same concept applies as well.
    Ours have been tight singletrack, thus the opposite seeding (fastest to slowest) to our road hill climbs (slowest to fastest, which yields the tight timeframes).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerdgirl View Post
    Ours have been tight singletrack, thus the opposite seeding (fastest to slowest) to our road hill climbs (slowest to fastest, which yields the tight timeframes).
    I understand now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo View Post
    My data shows otherwise. Others would confirm as well. Shaven=Faster. There is no doubt in my mind. The only questions is by how much. I am working on the formula as we speak.
    Not only way more aerodynamic, but less hair = way less weight also. Formula or not, the physics of it cannot be disputed. LOL.

    P.S. I recall an article from some years back actually stating that more advanced aerodynamic analysis showed that a short stubble actually improves airflow versus smooth and newly shaven. Have to time your last shave prior to every event to ensure your stubble length "peaks" properly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerdgirl View Post
    Ours have been tight singletrack, thus the opposite seeding (fastest to slowest) to our road hill climbs (slowest to fastest, which yields the tight timeframes).
    Funnily enough this is the method a lot of races where run with back in the 80's. Slowest riders sent out first with the fastest last.

    I think this came from copying the Repack crew who used the slowest to fastest method of race seeding. I think I have the original rules some where around here.

  89. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hekler View Post
    So like I mentioned, lets give Dan some encouragement and send him an e-mail supporting this kind of race format...maybe something will start to change. He's also mentioned about a race at Haliburton Forest next year. I did the race he held there a couple of years ago in his half marathon series and it was great (really tough, but isn't that the point!) Still had fair bit of fire road, but it was fun. I would love to do Haliburton with more single track and an offset paired start. It is interesting how people like to "dumb down" the trails. I wish riders would spend time developing skills instead of time making stuff around anything difficult. It's too bad that a riders level is judged by speed, not tech ability or even their willingness to try something outside their comfort level. I'm way more impressed by a beginner rider on a CCM that makes a log for the first time then someone who can ride 30km/hr on a fire road on a sub-25lb bike. Our theory is if there is a chainring mark on something then it means someone is trying or doing the obstacle (maybe my girlfriend) and just because you can do it it doesn't give you the right to alter it. Anyway back to work, more later...see ya, Hekle, hekle!
    I've liked some of Dan's races... I think what you're trying to describe is an Enduro vs XC race. (note some races call themselves "enduro" but are really just XC - i'm thinking paul's dirty here)

    So to stuff things in pigeon holes i will say. Haliburton is much more like an Enduro/Adventure race than an XC race and i do believe there is a good market for a real Enduro style race. Which is strange because races like transrockies are hearing large complaints that it's too technically difficult. Well ****, you can for sure take your XC rig if you want, but don't try to carpet the world like some noob throwing branches on the difficult/fast line to up the handicap.

    I will say I am impressed if somebody rides their sub 25lb HT down rutted fire-road at 50km+
    Last edited by electrik; 09-06-2011 at 01:46 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip View Post
    OK, so we're not disagreeing then - great.
    Funny thing I've learned in my racing experiences is that the fastest riders on smoother courses usually demonstrate that they are also the fastest and most skilled riders when the courses get more technical. This is a generalization, and there's always exceptions.

    If you are interested in formal racing (a lot of people aren't and enjoy their riding just fine without it) and want to participate only in those events which are more technically demanding, then doing a close examination of the event calendar and talking to other riders should offer up some opportunities for you to cherry-pick the more technical events and courses to maximize your chance of enjoying your outings.

    It's a truism to say that different courses and events will never be 100% homongenized, and the mix of fitness to skill required to excel at different events will always vary.

    If no events currently exist that suit your tastes, I've given some suggestions already in this thread to consider starting up a new event, or there's also Hekler's suggestion to try to drum up some interest with Dan at Substance Projects.
    You make a lot of assumptions and tangents. It's so convoluted that I am not even sure what your point is (reason why I ignore oskolo), nor honestly do I really care as I just ride my bike.

    Myself and my group that I ride with don't care about O-cup or events, these races are no different than an adult hockey league, just register and anyone can play .

    It's when these O-cup groups start thinking that they own the trails in Ontario and try to dumb down all the trails and force their way of mountain biking on other people is when there will be a huge problem and the two sides will collide.
    Last edited by Lwhicker; 09-06-2011 at 01:37 PM. Reason: To be more clear.

  91. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lwhicker View Post
    Myself and my group that I ride with don't care about O-cup or events, they are no different than an adult hockey league, just register and anyone can play.
    When you said "MTB course" earlier, did you mean "trail"? That might explain the confusion. No reason to ride a course if you're not racing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    races like transrockies are hearing large complaints that it's too technically difficult.
    Just a teeny note:
    My understanding is that people were finding TransRockies too physically difficult with 100km+ days over two or more passes, but lots of fireroad. Having been at the event in 2007, there was little in the way of technically difficult singletrack; a strong roadie would do well. In recent years, it's sounded like they're upping the singletrack and lowering the distance. Perhaps they've gone too far?

    Anyway, I've always loved Enduro style events. For various reasons, they seem to have declined in popularity (way more than OCups) in recent years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lwhicker View Post
    You make a lot of assumptions and tangents. It's so convoluted that I am not even sure what your point is (reason why I ignore oskolo), nor honestly do I really care as I just ride my bike.

    Myself and my group that I ride with don't care about O-cup or events, they are no different than an adult hockey league, just register and anyone can play .
    The most current set of posts in this thread, initiated by Hekler, were about race courses. Thanks for clarifying that your posts are about casual riding, not racing - that helps.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lwhicker View Post
    It's when these groups starts to think that they own the trails in Ontario and try to dumb down all the trails and force their way of mountain biking on other people is when there will be a huge problem and the two sides will collide.
    That's an extremely complex topic which has been discussed ad nauseum before on this forum, often with extremely volatile results, user contention, and reports to mtbr site administrators that needed moderator attention.

    If you have a tack on this discussion that you feel can be productive, the floor is yours for initiating discussion, with the understanding that if the postings head irreversibly south on us (from anyone's contributions, no fault of yours) I will close/lock the thread, regardless of the validity of the underlying topic.

  94. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerdgirl View Post
    Just a teeny note:
    My understanding is that people were finding TransRockies too physically difficult with 100km+ days over two or more passes, but lots of fireroad. Having been at the event in 2007, there was little in the way of technically difficult singletrack; a strong roadie would do well. In recent years, it's sounded like they're upping the singletrack and lowering the distance. Perhaps they've gone too far?

    Anyway, I've always loved Enduro style events. For various reasons, they seem to have declined in popularity (way more than OCups) in recent years.
    Interesting, well the news I read was from this year, it might even be the bc bike race i am mixing it up with, but both races are supposedly to be the "Enduro" style.

    I am trying to think of other races which were enduro style that have died out... apparently bc bike race had some record participation this year? I dont know what is happening with the transalps.

    Of course every race must have some aerobic fitness element to it, but just like having a boat-race that takes place on a calm lake there should also be a few parts like rapids where skill and experience can keep the boredom down and the excitement up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hekler View Post
    Back to the point...if anyone has interest in a different race format, give Dan a shout.
    good idea.

    it's great to get back to basics of mountain biking. it's time to acknowledge that there are
    all sorts of riders out there. the input of trail design has favoured one camp in certain areas for quite a while with the removal of features etc. the end result has been an increase of informal trail networks, but it also has hurt the sport as a whole as the decrease of numbers participating in events in relation to new riders. what is cool about mountain biking is its diversty of riders and the ability to ride diverse terrain.
    homegenisation of mtbing culture and trail networks will kill the sport and that is why it is so important to develop trail plans that does not allow this to happen. we have such checks and balances already in place in othere aspects of our society, it's seems that it is also needed here.
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    I am trying to think of other races which were enduro style that have died out... apparently bc bike race had some record participation this year? I dont know what is happening with the transalps.
    Ontario used to have its own Enduro series that started with the Icebreaker and went through the Ganaraska Gear Grinder, the Durham Durango and so on. It kinda died a slow death.

    There were also the WOW events and Mike wound them down a couple of years ago although numbers were still decent for the fall race. RIP.
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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster View Post
    When you said "MTB course" earlier, did you mean "trail"? That might explain the confusion. No reason to ride a course if you're not racing.
    Well no, I meant course. As the MTB course is still on the trail (they are the same thing? just different terminology).

    Like everyone else who mountain bikes a lot we all have our favorite loops to do which overlap with event courses. I guess I just used course because you have to be a racer to fit in here and was just keeping things consistent.

  98. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lwhicker View Post
    I guess I just used course because you have to be a racer to fit in here and was just keeping things consistent.
    I'm not sure that's a fair statement. I'd say "racers" make up about (maybe less than) 50% of people who post here. I love Singlesprocket and BCD's ride reports for instance and they have nothing to do with racing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    I am trying to think of other races which were enduro style that have died out.
    Iceman used to run a whole series of Enduros (the Icebreaker, Ganaraska Gear Grinder etc.) that he gradually abandoned due to decreasing participation. Other enduro-type citizen races have also recently kicked the bucket: Lake to Lake and the Squeezer, for example. Dan's races are awesome, but don't get many participants out. The reasons, as I said, are various. Politics, the economy, age and family status of participants, effective (or not) publicity, preference of racers...

    If you are looking for an incredible technical challenge, I can't recommend the BC Bike Race highly enough. Truly fantastic. I hope they don't ever dumb it down; I feel confident they won't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lwhicker View Post
    Riding a MTB course with no obstacles and man made to be smooth is just road riding in the forest (borrowed line). XC should be a little of all disciplines mixed together, not just a fitness test.
    There is some skill in riding man-made smooth singletrack in the forest fast, assuming it's not just a straight-shot through the woods. Knowing how to carry speed around corners, through dips, and over short hills, when to brake, when to conserve energy, when to apply the gas, and executing well-timed passes makes a difference.

    Having said that, I'm with you, my preference, my ideal XC course contains a little mix of everything: smooth flowy singletrack, tight & twisty sections, rocky descents, technical climbs, even the occasional fire road.
    Last edited by ray.vermette; 09-06-2011 at 05:59 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerdgirl View Post
    Iceman used to run a whole series of Enduros (the Icebreaker, Ganaraska Gear Grinder etc.) that he gradually abandoned due to decreasing participation. Other enduro-type citizen races have also recently kicked the bucket: Lake to Lake and the Squeezer, for example. Dan's races are awesome, but don't get many participants out. The reasons, as I said, are various. Politics, the economy, age and family status of participants, effective (or not) publicity, preference of racers...

    If you are looking for an incredible technical challenge, I can't recommend the BC Bike Race highly enough. Truly fantastic. I hope they don't ever dumb it down; I feel confident they won't.
    this was talked about before...
    i'll borrow this from a sig in eastern canada mtbr and quote... "singlesprocket is correct"

    not only dan's races.... but other promoters as well...
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    Umm, I'm new to this and had no idea that a suggestion to support a different (I'm not saying better for the masses) race format would create any stir. All riding is great and is better than being in front of the TV on a sunny day (I sure hope that doesn't get any TV people going). The idea again was to try to encourage a race series (I even don't like calling it a race, a riding series!) that would provide a less competitive, lower key event that would appeal to a group that may be intimidated or uninterested in the current offerings for whatever their reasons may be. I'm more of a social rider but enjoy the odd race now and then because it exposes me to different trails, locations and people that I currently don't know. I've met some great people at the Substance Projects events that I'm always glad to see at different events 3 years later. I believe that there is a segment of riders that would be interested in something different. If that pertains to yourself then simply show your support for the idea, tell a friend, post a positive reply or e-mail some race organization (I like Dan and don't have shares in his company) about it and let's see what happens....

  103. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hekler View Post
    Umm, I'm new to this and had no idea that a suggestion to support a different (I'm not saying better for the masses) race format would create any stir.
    Don't take it personally. There are a handful of hot-button topics here and you just happened to stumble across one purely by accident.

    Dan's a great guy and he puts a lot of love into his events. If there are enough people interested in an idea, he's quite likely to throw something fun together.
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    Thanks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerdgirl View Post
    Iceman used to run a whole series of Enduros (the Icebreaker, Ganaraska Gear Grinder etc.) that he gradually abandoned due to decreasing participation. Other enduro-type citizen races have also recently kicked the bucket: Lake to Lake and the Squeezer, for example. Dan's races are awesome, but don't get many participants out. The reasons, as I said, are various. Politics, the economy, age and family status of participants, effective (or not) publicity, preference of racers...
    Meanwhile every where we are now seeing loose run no frills, no results, type events occurring. Just read about the DYFI Enduro in Wales huge event and no race at all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hekler View Post
    Umm, I'm new to this and had no idea that a suggestion to support a different (I'm not saying better for the masses) race format would create any stir. All riding is great and is better than being in front of the TV on a sunny day (I sure hope that doesn't get any TV people going). The idea again was to try to encourage a race series (I even don't like calling it a race, a riding series!) that would provide a less competitive, lower key event that would appeal to a group that may be intimidated or uninterested in the current offerings for whatever their reasons may be. I'm more of a social rider but enjoy the odd race now and then because it exposes me to different trails, locations and people that I currently don't know. I've met some great people at the Substance Projects events that I'm always glad to see at different events 3 years later. I believe that there is a segment of riders that would be interested in something different. If that pertains to yourself then simply show your support for the idea, tell a friend, post a positive reply or e-mail some race organization (I like Dan and don't have shares in his company) about it and let's see what happens....
    i think you hit some nerves when you brought up there sausage suits and insulted the pink rocks.
    people around here are very sensitive about there fashionable outfits
    I think there is a place and need for chicos 24hrs at albion type races as they still draw quite a crowd.
    But like you I believe there is also a large segment of the riding community that would enjoy the kind of race you're suggesting with more technical skill oriented riding.
    I've e-mail substance projects to show support for your idea.
    by the way, I think I know you.

  107. #107
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    Yes you do. Sorry about the pink rocks in Albion comment, but there are pink rocks in Albion (not enough sunshine!) And I don't believe that I have used the term "sausage suits", only spandex (well, it is spandex isn't it?)

  108. #108
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    Next year I'm riding all summer in a G-String and an 80s cutoff t-shirt.

  109. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by 14Stone View Post
    Next year I'm riding all summer in a G-String and an 80s cutoff t-shirt.
    That would pretty much be the antithesis of a sausage suit! The goggles do nothing!
    Please enjoy seeing this terrible collection of me - something wonderful is about to happy.

  110. #110
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    Bring lots of beer. The wife says I'd look better with a 6 pack.




    .... strange because she doesn't drink.

  111. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerdgirl View Post
    That's the general suggestion IMBA makes for features. It's a little tougher for trails designed for racing, because you want there to be some time benefit to those with the skill to ride the techy stuff and time penalty associated with doing the ride-around. In other words, if you chicken out, someone should be able to pass you on the tough line. Tough to reconcile that with recreational rides where it should be the opposite.
    Well said !!
    You should b rewarded for riding or at least trying the hard route !!

  112. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by 14Stone View Post
    Next year I'm riding all summer in a G-String and an 80s cutoff t-shirt.
    Doesn't this music just make you feel like riding! Woo woo!

  113. #113
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    Party Clyde?

  114. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by 14Stone View Post
    Party Clyde?
    Don't forget the bikini wax!

  115. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    Doesn't this music just make you feel like riding! Woo woo!
    <iframe width="560" height="345" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/ftWtWKU4PZs" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

  116. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crash&bern View Post
    Well said !!
    You should b rewarded for riding or at least trying the hard route !!
    Seems like barebones common sense to me also. +rep to Nerdgirl on this one. Kind of retroactive for a 4 week old post, but time is often needed for clarity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo View Post
    Currently I am researching the intrawebz for data regarding the wind drag when racing with unshaven legs. I will publish the scientific paper shortly, so that everyone can benefit from it. Based on empirical data collected so far, those that shave legs are much faster than those that dont - must be something there...
    Will you plot the increase in drag as a function of hair length and density? I'll be up at the high end of the graph for sure!

  118. #118
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    initial tests on mice

    (please note that at this point the results have not been confirmed in tests with humans yet) confirm that there is a significant drag as well as weight penalty, that rises exponentially as the density increases.

    The problem is that mice refuse to use clipless pedals and sausage suits, so the final results may be a little skewed. However, I am glad to confirm that those mice who rode platform did not have any excessive gut and were faster in corners.

    I can't say more than this at this point.



    Quote Originally Posted by nickboers View Post
    Will you plot the increase in drag as a function of hair length and density? I'll be up at the high end of the graph for sure!

  119. #119
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    Representatives from PETA would like to have a word with you.

    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo View Post
    (please note that at this point the results have not been confirmed in tests with humans yet) confirm that there is a significant drag as well as weight penalty, that rises exponentially as the density increases.

    The problem is that mice refuse to use clipless pedals and sausage suits, so the final results may be a little skewed. However, I am glad to confirm that those mice who rode platform did not have any excessive gut and were faster in corners.

    I can't say more than this at this point.

  120. #120
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    detailed search

    did not yield any mod whose handle is PETA.

    i am so happy.

    not to derail the thread, and on a serious note - i really hope that everyone finds the type of race/ride that fits their bill.

    just please do not blame sausage suits for everything, including lack of whatever considers "technical courses". as ray mentioned - the definition of "technical" is pretty wide and it is not just riding over obstacles. it includes riding as fast as one's technical abilities allow, as well as fitness. fitness is integral part of xc racing and riding, for me. technical abilities are as important as fitness. it is hard to separate the two. for me - it's be the same as organizing Tour the France, just without any climbs.

    so sure, lets have rocks, logs, drops - you name it, and i bet my spit shiny wagon wheel, sub 21 HT bicycle that the same characters will still be winning races...

    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip View Post
    Representatives from PETA would like to have a word with you.

  121. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo View Post
    just please do not blame sausage suits for everything
    I've learned from mtbr Eastern Canada section to blame EVERYTHING on the sausage suiters.

    Beers not cold enough? Bloody sausage suits are to blame.

    Line up in the grocery store? Sausage suiter must have been fumbling for his wallet that caused the back up.

    Trail damage on local DH shuttle trails? Damn sausage suit riding fool must have been dragging his brake down the trail.

    Lift line in Whistler long? Who caused that? You guess it, old sausage suiter can't load his bike.

  122. #122
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    Actually, there's something to it. All of your examples below were me. Sorry.

    Quote Originally Posted by shirk View Post
    I've learned from mtbr Eastern Canada section to blame EVERYTHING on the sausage suiters.

    Beers not cold enough? Bloody sausage suits are to blame.

    Line up in the grocery store? Sausage suiter must have been fumbling for his wallet that caused the back up.

    Trail damage on local DH shuttle trails? Damn sausage suit riding fool must have been dragging his brake down the trail.

    Lift line in Whistler long? Who caused that? You guess it, old sausage suiter can't load his bike.

  123. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by 14Stone View Post
    Next year I'm riding all summer in a G-String and an 80s cutoff t-shirt.
    There's a guy around here who rides in nothing but a speedo and sandals. I swear his skin is made of leather.

  124. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by 14Stone View Post
    Next year I'm riding all summer in a G-String and an 80s cutoff t-shirt.


    Is this the new trend in XC? Bibs with no jersey?

  125. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by shirk View Post
    I've learned from mtbr Eastern Canada section to blame EVERYTHING on the sausage suiters.

    Beers not cold enough? Bloody sausage suits are to blame.

    Line up in the grocery store? Sausage suiter must have been fumbling for his wallet that caused the back up.

    Trail damage on local DH shuttle trails? Damn sausage suit riding fool must have been dragging his brake down the trail.

    Lift line in Whistler long? Who caused that? You guess it, old sausage suiter can't load his bike.
    Did he look like this?



    While I tried to fake it wearing baggies, I think I caused at least 3 of those in Whistler.

    But let me proclaim, I never, ever, served warm beer (or beer that wasn't meant to be served warm)

  126. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by shirk View Post


    Is this the new trend in XC? Bibs with no jersey?
    It is until you crash into some raspberry bushes or receive a huge sun-burn!

  127. #127
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    Why is it that some threads seem to always end up as a a ' pissing match'
    Between hippy free riders & leg shaving raceheads ??
    The original thread was about trails being trashed by horses & dumbed down
    By lazy riders !
    It doesn't matter what or how you ride , we all ride on trails & have to protect them
    !unless you own the trail or land or get paid to build the trail,
    You have no right making cheater paths or ANY changes to the trail
    Let's leave them as they were meant to be !!

  128. #128
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    Crash&bern you have to learn how to move with the flow here.
    It's now about sausage suits ,grocery store line ups and beer.

  129. #129
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    Move with the flow you say ???
    How ' bout,mountainbiking women , yoga pants & scotch ??
    Much nicer topics : )

  130. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crash&bern View Post
    Move with the flow you say ???
    How ' bout,mountainbiking women , yoga pants & scotch ??
    Much nicer topics : )
    We're about due for the regular Fall scotch thread... Feel free to start one.

    For my part, I just got a bottle of the new White Owl white rye. Possibly the subtlest rye I've ever tried!

    Please enjoy seeing this terrible collection of me - something wonderful is about to happy.

  131. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster View Post
    We're about due for the regular Fall scotch thread... Feel free to start one.

    For my part, I just got a bottle of the new White Owl white rye. Possibly the subtlest rye I've ever tried!

    I thought Nerdgirl banned all alcohol for another 8 months.

  132. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post
    I thought Nerdgirl banned all alcohol for another 8 months.
    Nah - just foolish uses of alcohol. And that's not just for 8 months. GM has been the lucky recipient of my DD skilz. I even occasionally have a taste of his more interesting beverages, but only when it won't be too big a test of willpower to stop.

  133. #133
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    Anybody e-mailed Dan about my race format idea that may attract hippy, scotch drinking, yoga pant wearing mountainbiking girls yet? I think my girlfriend would drink Scotch! The other criteria have already been met. I seriously would like to get this thing going, to the point where I've already got a 28 km loop scouted out in dufferin & simcoe forests that could be linked into Mansfield Outdoor centres trails to give a 35 + km loop with only 1.5km of fire road with no trail repeats. We could suggest that we have BBQ'd sausages instead of hambugers after the event! So in between getting sidetracked on forums, spend a minute and let Dan know you're interested. If you don't contact him you have no right complaining about the current race format. The format will not change and it doesn't need to. It fulfills a need, gets riders of every level out including kids and beginners which is great. Some of us are looking for something different. We cannot expect something to change that is working very successfully, so work on creating something new. So why not make your next e-mail to Substance Projects? Heckle, Heckle...

  134. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hekler View Post
    Anybody e-mailed Dan about my race format idea that may attract hippy, scotch drinking, yoga pant wearing mountainbiking girls yet? I think my girlfriend would drink Scotch! The other criteria have already been met. I seriously would like to get this thing going, to the point where I've already got a 28 km loop scouted out in dufferin & simcoe forests that could be linked into Mansfield Outdoor centres trails to give a 35 + km loop with only 1.5km of fire road with no trail repeats. We could suggest that we have BBQ'd sausages instead of hambugers after the event! So in between getting sidetracked on forums, spend a minute and let Dan know you're interested. If you don't contact him you have no right complaining about the current race format. The format will not change and it doesn't need to. It fulfills a need, gets riders of every level out including kids and beginners which is great. Some of us are looking for something different. We cannot expect something to change that is working very successfully, so work on creating something new. So why not make your next e-mail to Substance Projects? Heckle, Heckle...
    As a matter of fact, we talked to Dan about your idea for about half an hour at Provincials on Sunday and I can tell you he's giving it some very serious consideration. He sees a niche for different (enduros, tts, 100 milers, etc...) race formats in the Ontario market and he's just trying to find the right match.
    Please enjoy seeing this terrible collection of me - something wonderful is about to happy.

  135. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crash&bern View Post
    Move with the flow you say ???
    How ' bout,mountainbiking women , yoga pants & scotch ??
    Much nicer topics : )
    You must be Hekler's twin brother. He uses the same vocabulary to describe his purpose of living.

    Scary


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  136. #136
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    As much as I like a good scotch , I'd prefere to talk about mountainbiking women & yoga pants: )
    Hehe
    This heckler dude has a point
    Let's support new race & other events & the people who make them happen !!!
    I have a fun? Idea that I'll put in a new thread.
    What do you think of an 8 hour race [email protected] night!!
    Dark from start to Finnish Maybe done on a full moon!!

  137. #137
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    where is the new thread?
    you just added it to this one.

  138. #138
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    Patience trailtrash
    It's a coming !!
    In the meantime , let's discuss how Santa Cruz is better than kona
    Hehe

  139. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crash&bern View Post
    In the meantime , let's discuss how Santa Cruz is better than kona
    Hehe
    False: SC doesn't make a cargo bike... yet.
    Please enjoy seeing this terrible collection of me - something wonderful is about to happy.

  140. #140
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    Good job!

    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo View Post
    You must be Hekler's twin brother. He uses the same vocabulary to describe his purpose of living.

    Scary


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    Not my twin(luckily for him : )
    But I like his way of thinking (& riding )

  141. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster View Post
    False: SC doesn't make a cargo bike... yet.
    Nor do they make any steel hardtails whereas Kona has a selection of them.

  142. #142
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    QUOTE=Crash&bern;8443895]Patience trailtrash
    It's a coming !!
    In the meantime , let's discuss how Santa Cruz is better than kona
    Hehe[/QUOTE]

    looks like your outnumbered on this one
    still trying to figure out which one is better
    which one do i bring tomorrow?

  143. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crash&bern View Post
    Not my twin(luckily for him : )
    But I like his way of thinking (& riding )
    I am starting to see more things in common then. As long as yoga pants discussed are in women's sizes. Though once scotch gets involved, it becomes irrelevant.


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  144. #144
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    Anybody e-mail Dan yet?

  145. #145
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    Nor do they have a bike called Big Unit.

  146. #146
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    Anybody e-mail Dan yet?

  147. #147
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    Good job!

    Quote Originally Posted by Hekler View Post
    Anybody e-mail Dan yet?
    Yep I did !

  148. #148
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    Thanks, that's four....you, me, garage monster ( thanks for the help ) and trail trash....anyone else??? ...focus on the topic at hand...now that I have my req'd # of thread posts, I may start a new thread so maybe we can keep on the subject and start something beyond sausage suits vs baggies and Kona vs Santa Cruz (mr. Bern, no need to go there!) They are both the same...bikes that we love to ride, isn't this all the point? Thanks to trailtrash for letting me piggyback his thread, I owe you a home brew!

    I didn't intend for the thread intro to get to this type of off topic stuff, i'm just trying to get like minded riders together and start something small scale, fun and interesting. Look for a new beginning and if you have no interest in this type of format then keep on bantering elsewhere...I'm actually wanting to start something constructive. See you at the next thread and for those who had constructive input, I thank you. ( enduros, start methodology input, other similar race series....I'm sure I'll see you out there sometime, thanks for your help and your genuine interest) See ya, Johnny (ya that's my real name, feel free to introduce yourself anytime.) Thanks, and get out and ride.

  149. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hekler View Post
    Thanks, that's four....you, me, garage monster ( thanks for the help ) and trail trash....anyone else???
    While I like the entire concept, I will not be sending an email to Dan since the likelihood that I will be able to participate (only spending a small amount of time in Ontario each year) is slim to none, and I don't want Dan to get a false impression of potential number of participants.

  150. #150
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    Johnny - other than this full moon allnighter - any other ideas? Can we have something where families may find it enjoyable, and part of, as well? Start the thread and let's have more people throw in ideas before I can decide if it's my piece of cake and email Dan...

  151. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by trailtrash View Post
    riding at dufferin forest (mansfield) last weekend, it was unreal how rough the trails had become due to horses using all the single track which is not my biggest issue.
    The fact is none of these equastrian type will ever lift a finger to help build or maintain a trail but believe it is there god givin right to use them because they are there.
    we spent hours working on a large tree that had fallen over turning it into a very ridable log over making it fun for every level of rider depending on how you wanted to ride it.
    this feature was destoyed by the horses and even dangerous to bikes if you approached it from a certain side as you couln't see most of the smaller logs had been spread all over until you were commited to riding it.
    .
    I was at dufferin last weekend and some singletrack is still being used by the equestrian group. It seems to be a solo rider - but that is enough to screw it up. I also ran into a pair of smart-ass moto guys tearing up the singletrack and had words with them. They were local. There was also some old guy on a red quad tearing around in there. Local.

    There has always been a problem with singletrack poaching, but things seem worse in there. At least the logging stopped(for now)

    On the upside there are more riders and i think some of those fixes you worked on are still around.

    There is a large equestrian race october 2nd, it would be a good time to print up a pamphlet and hand it out to all riders. I dunno what todo about the motorized people, there are signs everywhere saying don't... the opp and forest manager have been called before, but it is a hassle.

  152. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    I dunno what todo about the motorized people, there are signs everywhere saying don't... the opp and forest manager have been called before, but it is a hassle.
    Think man, think! This is clearly a problem which is best solved through the use of a sturdy shovel.

  153. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by aerius View Post
    Think man, think! This is clearly a problem which is best solved through the use of a sturdy shovel.
    Haha, the shovel is a good idea since you can also dig a hole with it... however they had on some sturdy helmets so i'll take a pass

  154. #154
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    look for their off road plate, report the number if they have one.
    broadcasting from
    "the vinyl basement"

    build trail!

  155. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket View Post
    look for their off road plate, report the number if they have one.
    Ah... alright. Will do.

  156. #156
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    some of the moto guys in there also ride mountain bikes and are responsible for some of the earlier trail work in there. we've never had a problem with them but the ATV's and horses are a different story.

  157. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by trailtrash View Post
    some of the moto guys in there also ride mountain bikes and are responsible for some of the earlier trail work in there. we've never had a problem with them but the ATV's and horses are a different story.
    I don't know that that makes it ok... it seems strange to me that you'd piss in the same bowl you drink out of. I really don't care about x2 track... but the moto stuff really does a number even if you're a total super-star on the throttle - nevermind the laws. Another forest i've been to at 7/8th line near barrie also suffered some pretty bad moto damage on the single-track. However motorized travel was legal there.

    OF course ATV is worse and the horses too.. that level of damage all seems based on weight.

    There is another thread going on about Broken windows and how one visible trepass by a forest user encourages another until you've got a big problem(free for all)... which sort of seems to be going on here.

  158. #158
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    I was riding at Mansfield tonight and did notice that the trails are in pretty good shape. They actually seem to be in better shape this year then other years. there were a few hoof prints on them but nothing too bad. I did see a sign that they are planning a big ride on Oct 2 and had a thought about getting as many mountain bikers out as possible at the same time. (evil laugh) After encountering mountain bikers several times on a single track they just might get the hint! Horses are deathly afraid of us as they are not used to us at all.
    Friends don't let friends cheer for the TML

  159. #159
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    there is a no motorized vehicle of any kind allowed in dufferin forest and its not uncommon to see the police pull into the parking lots in the area trying to catch them off gaurd

  160. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dgage View Post
    I was riding at Mansfield tonight and did notice that the trails are in pretty good shape. They actually seem to be in better shape this year then other years. there were a few hoof prints on them but nothing too bad. I did see a sign that they are planning a big ride on Oct 2 and had a thought about getting as many mountain bikers out as possible at the same time. (evil laugh) After encountering mountain bikers several times on a single track they just might get the hint! Horses are deathly afraid of us as they are not used to us at all.
    Cool, the good part is that rain seems to help wash away and re-compact the sand fairly quickly. When it doesn't rain, the **** piles up and the hoof prints get pretty bad. I wouldn't scare the horse, but some of those horses bring out are very spooky. It becomes very difficult to accomodate such a thing - particularly on single-track. One snapping branch if you move aside and that thing will bolt. Dangerous.

    Quote Originally Posted by trailtrash View Post
    there is a no motorized vehicle of any kind allowed in dufferin forest and its not uncommon to see the police pull into the parking lots in the area trying to catch them off gaurd
    Yeah, I visit quick infrequently yet I've spoken with police before while in parking lot... so they are around. Unfortunately it's an honour system besides that - I don't even know where the nearest opp station is.

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    All of the original singletrack in Mansfield was cut by moto guys in the 70's. The club was called Dufferin Trail Riders if I remember correctly. That is why is has great flow.

    Never used to be any issues between local mtb riders and local moto riders in there. Many guys rode both. I've used moto to do trail maintenance in there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shirk View Post
    All of the original singletrack in Mansfield was cut by moto guys in the 70's. The club was called Dufferin Trail Riders if I remember correctly. That is why is has great flow.

    Never used to be any issues between local mtb riders and local moto riders in there. Many guys rode both. I've used moto to do trail maintenance in there.
    The majority of the singletrack trails around here were cut and maintained by moto guys as well and they did a great job and we never had any issues with them.

    As of this year, in northumberland forest, most are 'off limits' to bikes and dirt bikes now though but the Eastern forest of the Ganaraska is still available and the moto guys made some great flowy singletrack through there which we all enjoy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shirk View Post
    All of the original singletrack in Mansfield was cut by moto guys in the 70's. The club was called Dufferin Trail Riders if I remember correctly. That is why is has great flow.

    Never used to be any issues between local mtb riders and local moto riders in there. Many guys rode both. I've used moto to do trail maintenance in there.
    that's why it is rutted out, in some areas over two feet... i wouldn's say it has great flow either. it was just convenient to use those trails.
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    Quote Originally Posted by shirk View Post
    All of the original singletrack in Mansfield was cut by moto guys in the 70's. The club was called Dufferin Trail Riders if I remember correctly. That is why is has great flow.

    Never used to be any issues between local mtb riders and local moto riders in there. Many guys rode both. I've used moto to do trail maintenance in there.
    So why'd they get banned?

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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    So why'd they get banned?
    Have you seen what goes on here when you get an idea to go to certain trails with 6 of your buddies?

    All it takes is a handful of spiteful people, some carefully worded info, and make people fearful. They will jump on the band wagon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shirk View Post
    All of the original singletrack in Mansfield was cut by moto guys in the 70's. The club was called Dufferin Trail Riders if I remember correctly. That is why is has great flow.

    Never used to be any issues between local mtb riders and local moto riders in there. Many guys rode both. I've used moto to do trail maintenance in there.
    How can we get along with a bunch of dirtbikers if we act like enemies to ourselves- " Stay off my trails"?? Bet if people here actually sat down with these guy's they'd realize that we are a lot more similar then we think.

    For all the ranting on here against dirt bikers... in my experience they are less self righteous then what has gone on here in the last 2 years about trails.

  167. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post
    Have you seen what goes on here when you get an idea to go to certain trails with 6 of your buddies?

    All it takes is a handful of spiteful people, some carefully worded info, and make people fearful. They will jump on the band wagon.
    All i can say about here is..

    Internet = best broken telephone ever.

    Endless hours of fun.

    I think it's a good question to ask, if everything was cool and no problem then why suddenly ban. Doesn't add up - not to diss the conspiracy theory!

    Of course it's so much all water under the bridge as we stand today. It's nice to credit some people with being first, but do we owe them homage today or are we just looking for an easy reason to let them off the hook for being naughty.

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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    So why'd they get banned?
    that area might have never been opened to motorized vehicles in the summer, though
    they might have been informally tolerated to a certain extent. as the new management was drafted in the 90's and will be in place until 2015

    http://www.dufferincounty.on.ca/documents/mpsummary.pdf

    there is a snowmobile trail through there in the winter... to get the facts you have to check the archives down the street
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket View Post
    that area might have never been opened to motorized vehicles in the summer, though
    they might have been informally tolerated to a certain extent. as the new management was drafted in the 90's and will be in place until 2015

    http://www.dufferincounty.on.ca/documents/mpsummary.pdf

    there is a snowmobile trail through there in the winter... to get the facts you have to check the archives down the street
    Yes, the nuclear blast shelter... of course!

    I know from riding early spring w-w-www-www-w-ww-wwwhat it's like on the doubletrack after the snow melts.

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    In my experience with Dufferin Forest, I have had few problems with Motos, except for a couple of times where I've come across an uphill obstacle that has been dug out by a spinning rear tire. Easily fixed, with a few minutes work. If everyone realized the damage their own respective modes of transport in there were doing, and were vigilant in leaving the trails in as good as, or better shape than they found them in, this thread wouldn't exist. I rode Dufferin on this Sunday just past, and found the trails to be in excellent condition, except for about 3 sections of singletrack that were rutted out by horse hooves. I was also quite unnerved by the fact that my riding buddy and I were very loudly told several times to stop by an equestrian rider coming our way. On singletrack. If I wasn't out of town this weekend, I would love to show up with a bunch of other mtbers and ride the singletracks at the same time as these folks, if nothing else, to show them what they do to trails, with little to no regard for others. Just my rant.

  171. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by deems View Post
    In my experience with Dufferin Forest, I have had few problems with Motos, except for a couple of times where I've come across an uphill obstacle that has been dug out by a spinning rear tire. Easily fixed, with a few minutes work. If everyone realized the damage their own respective modes of transport in there were doing, and were vigilant in leaving the trails in as good as, or better shape than they found them in, this thread wouldn't exist. I rode Dufferin on this Sunday just past, and found the trails to be in excellent condition, except for about 3 sections of singletrack that were rutted out by horse hooves. I was also quite unnerved by the fact that my riding buddy and I were very loudly told several times to stop by an equestrian rider coming our way. On singletrack. If I wasn't out of town this weekend, I would love to show up with a bunch of other mtbers and ride the singletracks at the same time as these folks, if nothing else, to show them what they do to trails, with little to no regard for others. Just my rant.
    Agreed. At least to hand out a flyer so these people can't claim ignorance.

    What sort of horse/attire was this person riding the singletrack wearing? Did you have a helmet cam on? I also noticed the no horse signage missing, maybe time to put up some more.

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    Quote Originally Posted by deems View Post
    In my experience with Dufferin Forest, I have had few problems with Motos, except for a couple of times where I've come across an uphill obstacle that has been dug out by a spinning rear tire. Easily fixed, with a few minutes work. If everyone realized the damage their own respective modes of transport in there were doing, and were vigilant in leaving the trails in as good as, or better shape than they found them in, this thread wouldn't exist. I rode Dufferin on this Sunday just past, and found the trails to be in excellent condition, except for about 3 sections of singletrack that were rutted out by horse hooves. I was also quite unnerved by the fact that my riding buddy and I were very loudly told several times to stop by an equestrian rider coming our way. On singletrack. If I wasn't out of town this weekend, I would love to show up with a bunch of other mtbers and ride the singletracks at the same time as these folks, if nothing else, to show them what they do to trails, with little to no regard for others. Just my rant.
    that's unrealistic, just up the road by creemore in the simcoe forest is a prime example of unrestricted moto use. good luck riding your bike on those trails...

    motorized and non motorized activities on the same trails don't mix well...

    the horse riders have a very strong lobby group right now, your wasting your energy/resources doing anything with them. let them have their trails. their numbers are not growing. the cost of owning/caring for a horse, carting it around and the enviromental impact it has is not sustainable. plus the impact of the manure management, the need of large parking lots, wide roads for the trailers adds additional costs that there is no money for.

    it's better to concentrate on building trails that have a filter at the entrance/exits and features that makes the trail not conducive to horse riding. then attend the 2015 meeting to lobby your agenda when the management plan comes up for review.
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  173. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket View Post
    it's better to concentrate on building trails that have a filter at the entrance/exits and features that makes the trail not conducive to horse riding. then attend the 2015 meeting to lobby your agenda when the management plan comes up for review.
    It's even better to make the whole trail un-fun for horses and riders. Keep your corridor trimming to the absolute minimum and they'll find better things to do with their time.
    Please enjoy seeing this terrible collection of me - something wonderful is about to happy.

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    same thing, a filter can be a narrow corridor, a low hanging branch, a log over 3' high, a drop, etc... or all the above...


    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster View Post
    It's even better to make the whole trail un-fun for horses and riders. Keep your corridor trimming to the absolute minimum and they'll find better things to do with their time.
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket View Post
    motorized and non motorized activities on the same trails don't mix well...
    Some of the best trail I've ridden in the last two years is mixed moto, mtb, horse, and hiker.

    Washington state has a gem of a network of mixed use trail.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shirk View Post
    Some of the best trail I've ridden in the last two years is mixed moto, mtb, horse, and hiker.

    Washington state has a gem of a network of mixed use trail.
    That's just crazy talk.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post
    That's just crazy talk.
    Even more blashphemous is that it's in the US

    Squamish is also proving that moto and mtb can work together and share land and trails. The local clubs have stopped butting heads and started working together.

    The GTA riding community needs to get their act together and embrace a super lobby for Ontario. The small local communities hold the trails but not the numbers of people that actually ride them.

  178. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by shirk View Post

    The GTA riding community needs to get their act together and embrace a super lobby for Ontario. The small local communities hold the trails but not the numbers of people that actually ride them.
    Yeah right! We need to get away from being classified as motorized. Take a look at the national forest issue in the US - all bicycle are classified as motorized and therefore banned. Great.

    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket View Post
    same thing, a filter can be a narrow corridor, a low hanging branch, a log over 3' high, a drop, etc... or all the above...
    But then those other riders will come and install a cheater line.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shirk View Post
    Even more blashphemous is that it's in the US

    Squamish is also proving that moto and mtb can work together and share land and trails. The local clubs have stopped butting heads and started working together.
    For those who don't know. The same dirt bike groups in Washington have used the same techniques as mountain bikers. I have seen pic's of ladder briidges built for dirt bikers to traverse wet sections. Of course built to a way stuurdier standard then we ever will build to.

    Quote Originally Posted by shirk View Post

    The GTA riding community needs to get their act together and embrace a super lobby for Ontario. The small local communities hold the trails but not the numbers of people that actually ride them.

    Never happen. The group for Toronto- TORBA pretty much self destructed thanks to infighting and one self righteous selfish individual. Still exits apparentely but barely a peep heard out of them.

    It will be interesting to see on Sunday how many Toronto riders show up to be counted for the revitalization project. I predict a bunch of kids and a bunch of no shows from those who yap about wanting this stuff out of the city.

  180. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by shirk View Post
    Even more blashphemous is that it's in the US

    Squamish is also proving that moto and mtb can work together and share land and trails. The local clubs have stopped butting heads and started working together.

    The GTA riding community needs to get their act together and embrace a super lobby for Ontario. The small local communities hold the trails but not the numbers of people that actually ride them.
    your really are out of touch whats going on in and around the gta and in ontario...

    for starters

    how many people live in squamish per square kilometer? how many live in the gta?

    being part of a superlobby will get mtbs squashed out of existence by the orv/atv and snowmobile lobby group. what little voices we have will be reduced to a tiny squeak. had an interesting chat with the president of the of4wd about this during a trail clearing up near algonquin.

    we have to align/lobby with conservation/enviromental incentives in our communties/watersheds where the trails are part of a more sustainable practice
    that promotes stewardship. a trial has to be sold not just as a means of fitness. but as a historical/interpretive/community/environmental/health/recreation asset.
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket View Post
    your really are out of touch whats going on in and around the gta and in ontario...

    for starters

    how many people live in squamish per square kilometer? how many live in the gta?

    being part of a superlobby will get mtbs squashed out of existence by the orv/atv and snowmobile lobby group. what little voices we have will be reduced to a tiny squeak. had an interesting chat with the president of the of4wd about this during a trail clearing up near algonquin.

    we have to align/lobby with conservation/enviromental incentives in our communties/watersheds where the trails are part of a more sustainable practice
    that promotes stewardship. a trial has to be sold not just as a means of fitness. but as a historical/interpretive/community/environmental/health/recreation asset.
    There in all lies a huge part of the problem. That being unless the ideas are of Ontario, Toronto, and so on it will be never good enough. All ideas outside Ontario are evil, stupid, and such.. and will be slammed at all times.

    Thank you for continuing this fine tradition and reminding me exactly why I have become so disengaged in the last 9 years. This whole do as I say because I and only I know the way is old and tired. Everyone is wrong and I'm always right.

    Trail access in Ontario welcome to ignore.

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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket View Post
    how many people live in squamish per square kilometer? how many live in the gta?

    being part of a superlobby will get mtbs squashed out of existence by the orv/atv and snowmobile lobby group. what little voices we have will be reduced to a tiny squeak. had an interesting chat with the president of the of4wd about this during a trail clearing up near algonquin.

    we have to align/lobby with conservation/enviromental incentives in our communties/watersheds where the trails are part of a more sustainable practice
    that promotes stewardship. a trial has to be sold not just as a means of fitness. but as a historical/interpretive/community/environmental/health/recreation asset.
    You missed my point. Ontario mountain bikers do not have a collective voice. In many area's where there are trails there are not enough local riders to band together to provide an organized voice for the trails. The "supper lobby" is not joining forces with the sledders, atv'ers or orv. It's doing something similar to what the sledders have done with the OFSC. One main federation with any local clubs operating under it. IMBA is sort of there, but I don't see all of the ridership embracing it.

    Local riding communities like Mansfield don't have the population to fight for trails. The GTA has the population but no trails to fight for. Unless the GTA riders want to loose all their trails they need to come together and build a singular strong voice that is going to fight for all trails across the province.

    It's a waste of resources to have 100 singular clubs with 100 different insurance policies spinning their wheels with 100x the redundancy struggling to remain organized.

    This isn't a unique problem to Ontario. We need to more towards something similar here in BC. BC is lucky enough that each of the spots with riding has a large enough population to sustain (barely in some cases) a club. But it's not an efficient system.

    Ontario is prime ground to lead the way because from what I see I don't think there are as many strong advocacy clubs that would need to disbanded and re-aligned into provincial body.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post
    There in all lies a huge part of the problem. That being unless the ideas are of Ontario, Toronto, and so on it will be never good enough. All ideas outside Ontario are evil, stupid, and such.. and will be slammed at all times.

    Thank you for continuing this fine tradition and reminding me exactly why I have become so disengaged in the last 9 years. This whole do as I say because I and only I know the way is old and tired. Everyone is wrong and I'm always right.

    Trail access in Ontario welcome to ignore.
    no one said those ideas are no good/evil/etc. just that they won't work well (or not at all) in canada's largest urban center that see's the largest immigration influx and land development. whatever land we have left has to be protected not just now but a hundred years down the road. solutions have to be developed/implemented from within the local community (kinda like this program TRCA: Sustainable Neighbourhood Retrofit Action Plan) and be part social sustainable conscious.

    not dictated that if it comes from bc it must be better or right, nor dictated from a insular eltisits group.

    if you have any better ideas/concepts i'm all ears...
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    I thought that IMBA RLAC thing was supposed to be exactly that: a collective voice for Ontario. They talked a good talk, but I am not sure what they are up to right now.

  185. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kay. View Post
    I thought that IMBA RLAC thing was supposed to be exactly that: a collective voice for Ontario. They talked a good talk, but I am not sure what they are up to right now.
    Correct. » Regional Leadership Council Launches in Ontario IMBA Canada Ontario Rep Blog: All things IMBA Canada, ON

    But I don't really think it's being widely embraced. Hence my comment above.

    » General Advice to Mountain Bike Advocates IMBA Canada Ontario Rep Blog: All things IMBA Canada, ON

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    Quote Originally Posted by shirk View Post
    Even more blashphemous is that it's in the US

    Squamish is also proving that moto and mtb can work together and share land and trails. The local clubs have stopped butting heads and started working together.

    The GTA riding community needs to get their act together and embrace a super lobby for Ontario. The small local communities hold the trails but not the numbers of people that actually ride them.
    Was rereading a few articles in the Brit mag Singletrack on Trail Access. Funnily enough one article with all the email responses was full of self righteous "stay offa my trails" nonsense.

    Biggest thing they observed was mountain bikers need to stop falling over themselves to apologize and all that stuff. We are no longer the newbies. We spend countless hours do trail work- far exceeding any other user group. Yet we are the first inline to fall on our own swords to appease others. Sheesh.. don't think hiker groups are doing that. Snowmobilers in Kingston are not.

  187. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kay. View Post
    I thought that IMBA RLAC thing was supposed to be exactly that: a collective voice for Ontario. They talked a good talk, but I am not sure what they are up to right now.
    yup, don't wait for them to provide you the answer. get involved with what interests you and makes your community a better place to live.
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  188. #188
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    gobbly ****... ontario riders don't need a collective voice... waste of time and resources... advocate for trails in the area where you live. learn whats important to the community and what is sustainable. join committees, volunteer. act local-think global.
    and build trails...




    Quote Originally Posted by shirk View Post
    You missed my point. Ontario mountain bikers do not have a collective voice. In many area's where there are trails there are not enough local riders to band together to provide an organized voice for the trails. The "supper lobby" is not joining forces with the sledders, atv'ers or orv. It's doing something similar to what the sledders have done with the OFSC. One main federation with any local clubs operating under it. IMBA is sort of there, but I don't see all of the ridership embracing it.

    Local riding communities like Mansfield don't have the population to fight for trails. The GTA has the population but no trails to fight for. Unless the GTA riders want to loose all their trails they need to come together and build a singular strong voice that is going to fight for all trails across the province.

    It's a waste of resources to have 100 singular clubs with 100 different insurance policies spinning their wheels with 100x the redundancy struggling to remain organized.

    This isn't a unique problem to Ontario. We need to more towards something similar here in BC. BC is lucky enough that each of the spots with riding has a large enough population to sustain (barely in some cases) a club. But it's not an efficient system.

    Ontario is prime ground to lead the way because from what I see I don't think there are as many strong advocacy clubs that would need to disbanded and re-aligned into provincial body.
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket View Post
    gobbly ****... ontario riders don't need a collective voice... waste of time and resources...
    You don't get it do you.

    No sense wasting my time trying to explain it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post
    Was rereading a few articles in the Brit mag Singletrack on Trail Access. Funnily enough one article with all the email responses was full of self righteous "stay offa my trails" nonsense.

    Biggest thing they observed was mountain bikers need to stop falling over themselves to apologize and all that stuff. We are no longer the newbies. We spend countless hours do trail work- far exceeding any other user group. Yet we are the first inline to fall on our own swords to appease others. Sheesh.. don't think hiker groups are doing that. Snowmobilers in Kingston are not.
    oldest snowmoble club in ontario

    Havelock District Snowmobile Club - Great Snowmobiling Adventures In The Kawarthas'

    ah but we are the newbies in ontario, and the amount of hours we spend doing trail work/advocacy is a drop in the bucket compared to other groups. though torba does a good job and alot of work.
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  191. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by shirk View Post
    You don't get it do you.

    No sense wasting my time trying to explain it.
    translation: i don't want to listen to other views, it's all about me...

    no really, waste your time. people want to know and be enlightened... perhaps you can offer something that i can make a presentation to committee. perhaps you hold the missing link to trail advocacy in ontario.
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  192. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket View Post
    the missing link to trail advocacy in ontario.
    The missing link for trail advocacy all across Canada is organization.

    There are 100's of clubs spread across all the provinces duplicating each others work and missing out on the efficiency's of scale.

    It would be easier for all clubs if most of the admin crap that nobody enjoys doing was centralized and standardized.

    It would allow small communities of riders to band together and fight locally for their local trails in a more efficient manner. Riders that don't happen to live in that area but use the trails frequently would also be able to support easily.

    An example

    Club A has a local person that happens to be a database guru, they've created an amazing database to help in sending out newsletters, tracking who has paid fee's, and is easy to maintain.

    Club B does not have that, they struggle to keep an excel file updated. Thus they communicate poorly with their members.

    A central organization would be able to use that good database and expand it to all clubs.

    Another example is events and insurance.

    Many of the trail associations here in the west operate on their own insurance. They host an event and you need to be a member of their club to participate in the event. Many of these events are fundraiser for the trails, all proceeds being funnelled back into the trails. If I want to support all the local trails I personally ride I need to become a member of NSMBA, SORCA, WORCA, FVMBA, PVTA, and SCUMB. Each of those is 40-50 each. That just covers the local advocacy clubs with-in a 2 hour drive. Lets say next summer I when I am back in Ontario for 2weeks I want do another event...another club to join due to insurance issues. None of this is for organized racing. Add in a couple sanctioned races and you'll need at least a citizens race license. All that adds up.

    Wouldn't it be great if we had one singular organized cycling federation.

    Nobody said anything about you not joining your local committee, that is one of the most critical parts. But there is a much bigger picture view of advocacy and currently mountain bikers as a group kinda suck at it.

    So right back around to my original comment. Ontario riders should really embrace one main group to fight for all trails. Currently they don't have large numbers of strong local advocacy groups making it harder to transition. Built the system efficient from the start.

    You may think that a united voice is a waste of resources, from what I've learned working with the my local advocacy group I think the opposite.

  193. #193
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    That almost exactly describes what the IMBA RLAC is supposed to be. The main problem from what I can see (I'm not our club's RLAC rep) is that the people in the RLAC are already up to their ears volunteering for their own clubs with little time to spare for another commitment.

    Without money to pay staff, you're left with the time people have left over after work, family and things for their own clubs.

    (An aside: if you want to join one of our Club events, we can sell you an Associate Membership for $5 as long as you can provide proof of insurance (like a BC club membership, for instance). )
    Please enjoy seeing this terrible collection of me - something wonderful is about to happy.

  194. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster View Post
    That almost exactly describes what the IMBA RLAC is supposed to be. The main problem from what I can see (I'm not our club's RLAC rep) is that the people in the RLAC are already up to their ears volunteering for their own clubs with little time to spare for another commitment.
    That is just it. The current volunteers are very busy just trying to keep the operations of the club running.

    What if many of the back end tasks were removed from them and handled by a central paid staff. If they were provided streamlined and efficient tools to help.

    Some good comments when a similar topic came up on NSMB.

    if the NSMBA died would you care? - North Shore Mountain Biking Forums

  195. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster View Post
    ...
    (An aside: if you want to join one of our Club events, we can sell you an Associate Membership for $5 as long as you can provide proof of insurance (like a BC club membership, for instance). )
    Always Be Closing.

    Hey, you trying to get that set of steak knives or the el dorado?

    RLAC sounds fine, never heard of it, so that explains their problem.

    Anyways, I'm not sure anybody even shown that bigger is better here. It sounds like the opposite, that smaller clubs have more pull? Maybe counter-intuitive but what good is a pie in the sky type entity that can't do anything?

  196. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by shirk View Post
    That is just it. The current volunteers are very busy just trying to keep the operations of the club running.

    What if many of the back end tasks were removed from them and handled by a central paid staff. If they were provided streamlined and efficient tools to help.

    Some good comments when a similar topic came up on NSMB.

    if the NSMBA died would you care? - North Shore Mountain Biking Forums
    The proportion of riders in Ontario that actually belong to clubs is very small and the fees we charge are *just* above what it costs for insurance and admin stuff - and people still find it pricey. I don't know if the money's there to fund "cloud" staffing. Hmm...

    There's a Club Coalition thing coming up via the OCA but that still quite hazy as well and it's hard to tell if that's even a direction they're considering.
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  197. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    Always Be Closing.
    NSFW!

    <iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/MtXLCg08bcI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
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  198. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster View Post
    NSFW!

    <iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/MtXLCg08bcI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
    swap hyundai with ccm and bmw w/ sworks... somebody needs to start selling some ****ing memberships around here or there will be no more goddamn trails for anybody!


  199. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by shirk View Post
    You don't get it do you.

    No sense wasting my time trying to explain it.
    I realized in the last couple of weeks that he is part of the problem as the never ending unless it's approved by TRCA mentality he uses as his pulpit. And since putting him on ignore I couldn't be happier.

  200. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    Anyways, I'm not sure anybody even shown that bigger is better here. It sounds like the opposite, that smaller clubs have more pull? Maybe counter-intuitive but what good is a pie in the sky type entity that can't do anything?
    I am not trying to say that bigger is better. I am saying properly organized is better.

    The OFSC is a federation providing support to all of the individual snowmobile clubs. The clubs are still free to operate on local initiatives. The trail system is seen as a whole made up of the hard work put in by the local clubs.

    Bruce Trail Society is larger body that has local clubs working under it's umbrella.

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