Curbed Bike Lanes for Downtown Toronto!- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    Curbed Bike Lanes for Downtown Toronto!

    The Star tells me that newly minted Public Works chair Denzil Minan-Wong has put forth a plan to build a curbed bike lane network along Wellesley, Sherbourne, Richmond and Simcoe/Beverley/St. George. Wow!

    If council passes it, they say that construction could begin before the end of the year. Double wow!
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  2. #2
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    Somewhat of a surprise, considering all the campaign rhetoric.

    As I think about it, Wellesley, Sherbourne and St George already have painted lanes which were added some time ago without much opposition from motorists. I used the Sherbourne lane for years, and switched to the Jarvis lane because it works slightly better with traffic light timing (and the pavement is fresh). In my view, the value of curb separation as understood by cyclists is much higher on Jarvis than on Sherbourne. To wit, the Sherbourne lane is comparatively wider but Sherbourne motor traffic is comparatively slower and sparser. But, I'm also going to suggest that by formally cementing in a lane on Sherbourne and branding it as part of a connected network, the way will be clear to repeal the painted lane on Jarvis. (Apologies if anyone finds that overly skeptical)

    Richmond is a one-way street that is critical for moving rush-hour traffic. Gaining a separated lane there would vastly outweigh the loss of the lane on Jarvis. The value of the proposal seems to hinge on this element as far as I can see.

  3. #3
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    While in theory it sounds like a good idea. I won't get my hopes up until it is completed.

    What will be interesting to see is will this be a connected route. Meaning will it connect with other bike routes in Toronto or become just another bike route that connects to nothing. Just end and starts like 99% of them do.

    The other issue that I see will be where is the money coming from? In reality the city has slashed spending every where over the years. And it will be brought up that spending money on this is taking away from fixing the roads which are falling apart.

    Part of me suspects that this is more likely an effort to placate the voters in pre amalgamation Toronto who did not vote for Ford. Basically the haves. Which ironically those who voted for Ford will once again see that the haves get everything while the have not's who voted for Ford get neglected.

  4. #4
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    You can see a map of the proposed loop here. It looks like it connects to the Martin Goodman trail in two spots!

    As for the cash, if it's anything like what happens in Hamilton, Public Works is probably just shoving a little bit of money from here to there. "Minnan-Wong said staff will still need to determine the financial impact, but added “putting in curbs and getting out a bucket of paint doesn’t cost a lot of money.”

    Works for me!
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  5. #5
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    I'm not a huge fan of bike lanes so ...
    What happens to a curbed bike lane in the winter?
    Cheers, Dave

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by dskunk
    I'm not a huge fan of bike lanes so ...
    What happens to a curbed bike lane in the winter?
    Fatbikes move south for commuting...

    Doubt it would happen in TO, but there are a couple of bike routes that Hamilton ploughs almost better than the roads...

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerdgirl
    Doubt it would happen in TO, but there are a couple of bike routes that Hamilton ploughs almost better than the roads...
    That's exactly why the last stretch of the Dundas rail trail needs to be paved across the bridge: so it can be plowed all winter. The City won't plow unpaved paths (probably a good thing when you think about it).
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by dskunk
    What happens to a curbed bike lane in the winter?
    No idea. But knowing Toronto this should be amusing.

  9. #9
    namagomi
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    Quote Originally Posted by dskunk
    I'm not a huge fan of bike lanes so ...
    What happens to a curbed bike lane in the winter?
    Interesting... but,

    I'm wondering how many curbs one will have to bunny-hop to avoid a door, turn left or get to the other side of the street... bok bok bok.

  10. #10
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    Other than legality and a subtle decrease in pedestrians/km, how is this different than riding on the sidewalk?

    Same right hooks, same pull-out motorists... who will probably roll up and stop right in the sidepath to check for "real traffic" on the actual road.

    The only difference I can see is that we'll get doored on the other side of the car.
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  11. #11
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    In Newmarket they introduced bike lanes this summer by simply painting a bike and and some arrows on the street. It is insulting to cyclists that the town of Newmarket thinks that this is what a bike lane is. The street is the same width that is was before this supposed bike lane. Things need to change!

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by ToneyRiver
    In Newmarket they introduced bike lanes this summer by simply painting a bike and and some arrows on the street. It is insulting to cyclists that the town of Newmarket thinks that this is what a bike lane is. The street is the same width that is was before this supposed bike lane. Things need to change!
    Yeah they did this in London too, they painted these so-called "sharrows" in places that are known areas of concern (aka. death traps) for bike commuters. I'm pretty sure it was a case of let's find the cheapest solution rather than the best solution on the city of London's part.

  13. #13
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    Some more insight from the misinformed:

    http://www.thestar.com/opinion/lette...ct-pedestrians

    The idea is to "confine" cyclists. Spoken without irony.
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  14. #14
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    In other news, Tour D'Afrique is having a contest called "Help Us Change Rob Ford's Mind About Cycling".

    Maybe I should have made this thread into a poll... Curbed lanes: cool or dumb?
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster

    Maybe I should have made this thread into a poll... Curbed lanes: cool or dumb?
    Dumb.
    I feel warm and fuzzy about sharrows though (and I'm serious 'bout that)
    Cheers, Dave

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghettocruiser
    Some more insight from the misinformed:

    http://www.thestar.com/opinion/lette...ct-pedestrians

    The idea is to "confine" cyclists. Spoken without irony.

  17. #17
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    curbed bike lanes are nothing new, quite common in montreal. ridden there and works quite well. not so sure in the winter though.
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket
    curbed bike lanes are nothing new, quite common in montreal. ridden there and works quite well. not so sure in the winter though.
    I'm trying to think of where in Montreal. We've mostly poked around Verdun/Downtown/Ile Notre Dame/Longueuil and I don't remember seeing any there.
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  19. #19
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    Well, well. Yesterday we had this news nugget:

    Jarvis St. bike lanes will be re-examined

    ...

    Public works chairman Denzil Minnan-Wong said he thinks there is an appetite on council to revisit the controversial bike lanes.

    “I’ve heard from many councillors that they would like to revisit this issue,” Minnan-Wong said.

    He is proposing a separated bike lane plan in the downtown core but the network doesn’t call for such lanes on Jarvis St. because it is a primary north-south route.

    ...
    Quote Originally Posted by Kay.
    ...

    As I think about it, Wellesley, Sherbourne and St George already have painted lanes which were added some time ago without much opposition from motorists. I used the Sherbourne lane for years, and switched to the Jarvis lane because it works slightly better with traffic light timing (and the pavement is fresh). In my view, the value of curb separation as understood by cyclists is much higher on Jarvis than on Sherbourne. To wit, the Sherbourne lane is comparatively wider but Sherbourne motor traffic is comparatively slower and sparser. But, I'm also going to suggest that by formally cementing in a lane on Sherbourne and branding it as part of a connected network, the way will be clear to repeal the painted lane on Jarvis. (Apologies if anyone finds that overly skeptical)

    ...

  20. #20
    namagomi
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kay.
    Well, well. Yesterday we had this news nugget:
    Not to mention Sherbourne's ride quality. People are really getting what they bargained for with Rob Ford... He is the real deal! Gonna flush out the commies. One can only laugh at the stupidity of it all.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik
    Not to mention Sherbourne's ride quality. People are really getting what they bargained for with Rob Ford... He is the real deal! Gonna flush out the commies. One can only laugh at the stupidity of it all.

    Aaawwww is the poor Torontoite of old Toronto feeling the screwing that Scarborough or North York gets while you all get the benefits? Welcome to what people in Scarborough put up with while you lot had all the benefits on their backs.

    The only voters who benefited from amalgamation was those who live where you lot live. But none of you will ever see that because your ignorance to what goes on around you is mind boggling. Next you lot will be blaming single black mothers for this.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil
    Aaawwww is the poor Torontoite of old Toronto feeling the screwing that Scarborough or North York gets
    Screwing? Like that little gravy-powered tractor that follows the snowplow around and clears our driveways for us? Or that semi-private subway I have that runs to Failview Mall?
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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghettocruiser
    Screwing? Like that little gravy-powered tractor that follows the snowplow around and clears our driveways for us? Or that semi-private subway I have that runs to Failview Mall?

    Ah.. the subway to no where. I could never figure out what the point of it was.. other then to help the more affluent get to Yonge st line faster.

    Only reason anything will happen transit wise in Scarborough is due to the Pan Ams. If not it would be business as usual..take the tax money.. make endless promises....use the money for projects elsewhere... show up for photo ops when bad things happen...

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik
    Gonna flush out the commies..
    God bless... That's good...

  25. #25
    namagomi
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil
    Aaawwww is the poor Torontoite of old Toronto feeling the screwing that Scarborough or North York gets while you all get the benefits? Welcome to what people in Scarborough put up with while you lot had all the benefits on their backs.

    The only voters who benefited from amalgamation was those who live where you lot live. But none of you will ever see that because your ignorance to what goes on around you is mind boggling. Next you lot will be blaming single black mothers for this.

    I just find it hilarious that suburbs like Mississauga and Brampton, the so called kingdoms of the car, are installing bicycle and transit infrastructure like crazy while Toronto(a city with way better density) is going to tear up lanes! I know what i'm talking about here, if there is something you think i'm being ignorant about then state it and don't get saucy for no reason.

    The only voters who benefited from the Toronto amalgamation were those who gerrymandered the vote and got themselves elected. You see, politicians really don't care who they have to **** over to get elected. Getting elected is the only goal.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo
    God bless... That's good...
    Yes, I lol'd.

    I can see Mayor Napolean with his rosy cheeks pontificating about cutting the fat.

  27. #27
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    Miller wanted bike lanes so his supporters wouldn't get run over. Rob wants sidepaths so his supporters won't be delayed by a bike in front of them. They're two sides of the same coin, they want bikes out of traffic lanes, which they think are cars-only.

    Whether we are moved to a useless glorified sidewalk or a useless paint stripe in the gutter seems like a rather inane topic for so much public discourse.
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  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik
    I just find it hilarious that suburbs like Mississauga and Brampton, the so called kingdoms of the car, are installing bicycle and transit infrastructure like crazy while Toronto(a city with way better density) is going to tear up lanes! I know what i'm talking about here, if there is something you think i'm being ignorant about then state it and don't get saucy for no reason.

    The only voters who benefited from the Toronto amalgamation were those who gerrymandered the vote and got themselves elected. You see, politicians really don't care who they have to **** over to get elected. Getting elected is the only goal.

    Ah yes. I forgot. You have all that hate because the majority who voted for Ford are the communities who got screwed by amalgamation. And who have been screwed since. Sorry, the people in those communities are tired of being ignored.

    Only getting a token response when the bodies pile up in the streets. And listening to the Stephen Ledrew types go on about if it wasn't for black single mothers this all would be better bull shite.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik
    I know what i'm talking about here,
    sure...

    if there is something you think i'm being ignorant about then state it and don't get saucy for no reason.
    ignorant? no way... i know you secretly love Rob "The Gravy Train Killer" Ford... you just can't come out of the closet... for now...

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster
    I'm trying to think of where in Montreal. We've mostly poked around Verdun/Downtown/Ile Notre Dame/Longueuil and I don't remember seeing any there.
    really? you got to be kidding me...

    http://centretown.blogspot.com/2010/...egregated.html

    http://www.velomontreal.com/cartes/maps.php

    here are some maps indicating the type of bike lanes...

    http://www.velomontreal.com/cartes/m...e-ville_EN.php
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  31. #31
    namagomi
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil
    You have all that hate because the majority who voted for Ford are the communities who got screwed by amalgamation.
    Incorrect. Getting back on track, the issue here was tearing up existing bicycle lanes downtown. It doesn't make actual sense, but seeing your crab in the bucket feelings about "liberal downtowners" it probably makes political sense to start de-urbanizing Toronto.

  32. #32
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    as a cyclist, i agree that killing one Jarvis line in favour of bike line was retarded.

    there are so many north-south routes that are way better than jarvis... so if you are talking about "tearing up existing bicycle lanes" on jarvis - that is actually a good idea... move them elsewhere...

    same goal can be achieved without causing animosity with cagers...

    i want that centre lane on jarvis back...

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo
    as a cyclist, i agree that killing one Jarvis line in favour of bike line was retarded.

    there are so many north-south routes that are way better than jarvis... so if you are talking about "tearing up existing bicycle lanes" on jarvis - that is actually a good idea... move them elsewhere...

    same goal can be achieved without causing animosity with cagers...

    i want that centre lane on jarvis back...
    The problem is that they blame Miller for the "War against the car." Now people snivel about Ford's so called "War against the bike".

    The amount of money Toronto has wasted on this whole shite storm since 2002 is amazing.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghettocruiser
    Miller wanted bike lanes so his supporters wouldn't get run over. Rob wants sidepaths so his supporters won't be delayed by a bike in front of them. They're two sides of the same coin, they want bikes out of traffic lanes, which they think are cars-only.

    Whether we are moved to a useless glorified sidewalk or a useless paint stripe in the gutter seems like a rather inane topic for so much public discourse.
    Here is a novel idea. Instead of fighting about bike lanes let's come up with some actual functional ideas.

    -Make actual bike routes.. signed that tell you number and name of routes. Has those bike symbols painted on the roads periodically so you know you are on route still.

    - Take the effort to actually look at side streets for these routes. It can be done if the time is actually taken.

    - Have the routes actually connect not stop with no where to go.

    It's sheer laziness and grand standing that is going on. And all we hear from people like Electrik is how evil Ford is. Fer Fraks sake. he never said bikes shall be banned. Instead of foaming about how evil you claim he is how about offering up actual ideas.

    Oh, wait that would interfere with the Liberal types whining about how the majority who voted in Ford. Should have voted according to the whiny minority.

    Yes I am a former Scarborough Arsehole.

  35. #35
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    There are already hundreds of kilometers of excellent routes for bikes in Toronto.... the friggen right hand lane of any given roadway. Not the gutter, the lane. Including arterial roads if that's the shortest route.. why the hell should I be routed onto side streets (other than to appease a bunch of unhinged motorists who want to drive faster but don't have the talent to change lanes?)
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  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil
    ..

    It's sheer laziness and grand standing that is going on. And all we hear from people like Electrik is how evil Ford is. Fer Fraks sake. he never said bikes shall be banned. Instead of foaming about how evil you claim he is how about offering up actual ideas.
    ...
    If you're an urban cyclist there is a pretty good chance you'll think Ford should be labelled evil. One might be justified in thinking that because he really is gambling with cyclist's safety by removing lanes and stopping all bicycle infrastructure improvements(the largest factor in our on road safety) while on the other hand telling cyclists if they "swim with sharks, they'll get bit" just to stick it in their eye. While Ford never said verbatim "bicycles should be banned from the roadways" it's obvious he points more that way than to sharing the road.



    Bicycle lanes are just there to force our inane driving community to give cyclists proper space on certain roads, the cyclists will still be there regardless.

    edit:
    Ford on Thursday addressed media reports that he wanted to get rid of the bike lanes on Jarvis that were installed last summer.

    "I've never supported the bike lanes on Jarvis. You know, eventually would I like to see [them go?]. Absolutely," he said.

    "But is it a priority right now? I haven't got any documentation or anything like that. No, it's not something that's going to happen immediately."

    It's estimated it would cost around $68,000 to remove the lanes.

    Meanwhile, a plan to introduce a network of dedicated bike lanes throughout downtown will be introduced at a June 23 meeting of the public works and infrastructure committee.

    The chair of the committee, Denzil Minnan Wong, says ...
    Here is another piece for you - http://news.nationalpost.com/2011/05...a-lefty-pinko/
    Last edited by electrik; 05-21-2011 at 09:55 AM.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik
    If you're an urban cyclist there is a pretty good chance you'll think Ford should be labelled evil. One might be justified in thinking that because he really is gambling with cyclist's safety by removing lanes and stopping all bicycle infrastructure improvements(the largest factor in our on road safety) while on the other hand telling cyclists if they "swim with sharks, they'll get bit" just to stick it in their eye. While Ford never said verbatim "bicycles should be banned from the roadways" it's obvious he points more that way than to sharing the road.

    hmm.. nice try.

    I seriously doubt that Rob Ford wants to remove cycling infrastructure. What I don't doubt is how the media has spun it and the agitators who will whine no matter what is done.

    Friendly tip... stop looking to Europe for ideas. Ask anyone from Europe how people get around in the city.. foot, bike or Scooter. European cities are based around horse and carriage street design. While North America has been built for cars.

    Man.. this endless hating gets old and goes no where. No wonder there are so many failed projects in Toronto...Sheppard Line, Scarborough RT, Allen Road to name a few.

    You want to make things better in Toronto? Improve cycling routes from the outskirts, make it easier to take a bike on Transit and the subway. At least half of the car traffic into pre amalg Toronto is from there. Simply because it's fraking painful taking the transit system in. When I can ride my bike from UofT Scarborough to MEC downtown faster then via transit and a wee bit slower then a car.

  38. #38
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    instead of whining without any examples

    can you actually show us what Ford did that is anti-cyclist?

    Other than removing bike lane from Jarvis - which is in my cyclist opinion a good idea, what else has Ford done to make your urban cyclist life worse?

    As a matter of fact - if you read your own links - you will see that he is doing more for cyclists than Miller himself.

    The point is that bikes and cars has to co-exist on streets. Not rub each other noses, but co-exist.

    Building bike lanes on such a busy street as Jarvis and eliminating one crucial lane for that - was not a good move. I did not see a river of cyclists streaming down the bike lane on Jarvis, ever. Cagers took this one right on their chin. And who they blamed for it? Not Miller, but cyclists. Their attitude, which already sucks (most cagers), became even worse. Who wins this face-off? Let me give you a hint - not cyclists.

    So instead of antagonizing cagers, as antagonized as they are already - we need to do it smartly.

    I strongly believe that Ford will do a BETTER job on helping cyclists move around the city SAFER, than Miller. He may not be a cycling proponent, but HE LISTENS TO PEOPLE.

    I guess, that is how he got elected, over urbanite Smitty...

    Should I lend you my glasses so that you can read the writing on the wall?

    nah, lets wait October...

    Quote Originally Posted by electrik
    If you're an urban cyclist there is a pretty good chance you'll think Ford should be labelled evil. One might be justified in thinking that because he really is gambling with cyclist's safety by removing lanes and stopping all bicycle infrastructure improvements(the largest factor in our on road safety) while on the other hand telling cyclists if they "swim with sharks, they'll get bit" just to stick it in their eye. While Ford never said verbatim "bicycles should be banned from the roadways" it's obvious he points more that way than to sharing the road.



    Bicycle lanes are just there to force our inane driving community to give cyclists proper space on certain roads, the cyclists will still be there regardless.

    edit:


    Here is another piece for you - http://news.nationalpost.com/2011/05...a-lefty-pinko/

  39. #39
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    i posted first.


  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil
    hmm.. nice try.

    I seriously doubt that Rob Ford wants to remove cycling infrastructure. What I don't doubt is how the media has spun it and the agitators who will whine no matter what is done.

    Friendly tip... stop looking to Europe for ideas. Ask anyone from Europe how people get around in the city.. foot, bike or Scooter. European cities are based around horse and carriage street design. While North America has been built for cars.

    Man.. this endless hating gets old and goes no where. No wonder there are so many failed projects in Toronto...Sheppard Line, Scarborough RT, Allen Road to name a few.

    You want to make things better in Toronto? Improve cycling routes from the outskirts, make it easier to take a bike on Transit and the subway. At least half of the car traffic into pre amalg Toronto is from there. Simply because it's fraking painful taking the transit system in. When I can ride my bike from UofT Scarborough to MEC downtown faster then via transit and a wee bit slower then a car.
    "Re-evaluation" of bicycle lanes, particularly Jarvis, was part of Ford's election campaign... Don't try to tell me it wasn't what helped to get him elected.

    I don't want to import the "great" European example(where did you get that idea from?), frankly i'm not down with wearing wooden spd's(not that there is anything wrong with that).

    Yes getting around the outskirts of Toronto by bicycle sucks, getting across any of the 401 junctions is harrowing. I would look at the failed projects as a simple result of political dithering of which Ford is part of, Miller took tiny steps forward and now Ford is looking to re-evaluate those tiny steps. Ridiculous.

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik
    "Re-evaluation" of bicycle lanes, particularly Jarvis, was part of Ford's election campaign... Don't try to tell me it wasn't what helped to get him elected.
    of course it did. i wanted it too. i am glad he listened to me and others who elected him. however, that has nothing to do with "jihad on cyclists by Ford" which you are implying. killing the bike lane on jarvis is a common sense business decision that i fully expect from Ford.

    I would look at the failed projects as a simple result of political dithering of which Ford is part of, Miller took tiny steps forward and now Ford is looking to re-evaluate those tiny steps. Ridiculous.
    Ford was a huge minority under Miller. he couldn't do anything that made sense to a lot of torontonians. a great majority of torontonians, if i may add, according to the most recent election. Miller imposed the tyranny of minority... garbage strikes, ttc strikes, jobs for life... hello?

    wait until Ford fixes Toronto... next - the province... McGuinty just broke another promise about freezing public workers salaries... raises from 1.9% to over 8% bonuses to hundreds of eHealth employees for wasting $1,000,000,000 of OUR money and not delivering any of the projects on time.

    way to go McGuinty.

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik
    "Re-evaluation" of bicycle lanes, particularly Jarvis, was part of Ford's election campaign... Don't try to tell me it wasn't what helped to get him elected.
    Oh yes.. re- evaluation is so evil. Hmm.. last I checked any good business will re-evaluate projects.

    What he got elected on was his promise to go back and look at projects like these. Nothing new there. Which he has done.

    But feel free to continue your never ending hate on for Ford and Harper.

    hmm.. sounds similar to a missing poster around here, eh?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil
    hmm.. nice try.

    I seriously doubt that Rob Ford wants to remove cycling infrastructure. What I don't doubt is how the media has spun it and the agitators who will whine no matter what is done.

    Friendly tip... stop looking to Europe for ideas. Ask anyone from Europe how people get around in the city.. foot, bike or Scooter. European cities are based around horse and carriage street design. While North America has been built for cars.

    Man.. this endless hating gets old and goes no where. No wonder there are so many failed projects in Toronto...Sheppard Line, Scarborough RT, Allen Road to name a few.

    You want to make things better in Toronto? Improve cycling routes from the outskirts, make it easier to take a bike on Transit and the subway. At least half of the car traffic into pre amalg Toronto is from there. Simply because it's fraking painful taking the transit system in. When I can ride my bike from UofT Scarborough to MEC downtown faster then via transit and a wee bit slower then a car.

    Agreed, I think the same. I've been following this Dutch cycling blog for a while now, really for no reason other than I just love seeing the amazing cycling infrastructure. The bicycle "highways" that flow through the countryside and connect towns there would be a dream come true here, for me anyway. It looks like the wheel (no pun) has already been invented, implementing it on the other hand...

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo
    can you actually show us what Ford did that is anti-cyclist?

    Other than removing bike lane from Jarvis - which is in my cyclist opinion a good idea, what else has Ford done to make your urban cyclist life worse?

    As a matter of fact - if you read your own links - you will see that he is doing more for cyclists than Miller himself.

    The point is that bikes and cars has to co-exist on streets. Not rub each other noses, but co-exist.

    Building bike lanes on such a busy street as Jarvis and eliminating one crucial lane for that - was not a good move. I did not see a river of cyclists streaming down the bike lane on Jarvis, ever. Cagers took this one right on their chin. And who they blamed for it? Not Miller, but cyclists. Their attitude, which already sucks (most cagers), became even worse. Who wins this face-off? Let me give you a hint - not cyclists.

    So instead of antagonizing cagers, as antagonized as they are already - we need to do it smartly.

    I strongly believe that Ford will do a BETTER job on helping cyclists move around the city SAFER, than Miller. He may not be a cycling proponent, but HE LISTENS TO PEOPLE.

    I guess, that is how he got elected, over urbanite Smitty...

    Should I lend you my glasses so that you can read the writing on the wall?

    nah, lets wait October...
    Is this the part where you demand "proof" ... haha it's true Ford is popular, but it's the sort of vitrolic popularity based off hate and negative ideology that is only good to destroy the works of others. I am looking for Ford to create something other than a mess, which is sure to happen literally with the garbage system - Now that we have a privateer putting his "business" men in charge. One only needs to look at the Mob in NYC to understand how well privatized trash disposal worked out for them.

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo
    i posted first.




  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil
    Oh yes.. re- evaluation is so evil. Hmm.. last I checked any good business will re-evaluate projects.

    What he got elected on was his promise to go back and look at projects like these. Nothing new there. Which he has done.

    But feel free to continue your never ending hate on for Ford and Harper.

    hmm.. sounds similar to a missing poster around here, eh?
    Haha, re-evaluation is not evil in itself, only when the result of the dithering and political favouritism is people losing lives through the failure of the city to provide safe space for cyclists to go about their business.

    Ford hasn't achieved anything yet, nothing has born it's fruit, so why are we singing his praises without seeing the actual consequences of his actions in office.

  47. #47
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    he is winner already in my eyes

    1. he fulfilled some of his pre-election promises (some of them really quicly - like car tax), other promises to follow
    2. he did not change any of this promises and did not lie about them, the minute he was elected...

    i respect him for that.

    give me just one politician with this record after 100 days???

    just one???



    Quote Originally Posted by electrik
    Haha, re-evaluation is not evil in itself, only when the result of the dithering and political favouritism is people losing lives through the failure of the city to provide safe space for cyclists to go about their business.

    Ford hasn't achieved anything yet, nothing has born it's fruit, so why are we singing his praises without seeing the actual consequences of his actions in office.

  48. #48
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    umm? you call "mob in NYC"?

    how were they worse than the system we had prior to Ford?

    did NYC have any garbage strikes?

    did some NYC families lived near makeshift landfills guarded by those that were supposed to keep the city clean, who prevented citizens from disposing off their garbage so that they can live their lives with some dignity??

    and you call NYC garbage bosses "a mob"...

    good for you...

    honestly, is your name David? Last initial M?

    Quote Originally Posted by electrik
    Is this the part where you demand "proof" ... haha it's true Ford is popular, but it's the sort of vitrolic popularity based off hate and negative ideology that is only good to destroy the works of others. I am looking for Ford to create something other than a mess, which is sure to happen literally with the garbage system - Now that we have a privateer putting his "business" men in charge. One only needs to look at the Mob in NYC to understand how well privatized trash disposal worked out for them.

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo
    1. he fulfilled some of his pre-election promises (some of them really quicly - like car tax), other promises to follow
    2. he did not change any of this promises and did not lie about them, the minute he was elected...

    i respect him for that.

    give me just one politician with this record after 100 days???

    just one???
    Streetcars and the LRT plan are here to stay, Rob Ford broke that huge promise. His transit plan called for massive changes.

    So, you see, there isn't even one.

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo
    how were they worse than the system we had prior to Ford?

    did NYC have any garbage strikes?

    did some NYC families lived near makeshift landfills guarded by those that were supposed to keep the city clean, who prevented citizens from disposing off their garbage so that they can live their lives with some dignity??

    and you call NYC garbage bosses "a mob"...

    good for you...

    honestly, is your name David? Last initial M?
    Clearly you've never heard of Danny Benedetto... Here is another case study of an on-going situation.

  51. #51
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    huh?

    that comes as a big surprise to me, as Ford was and is a big proponent of subways. He was clear that he didn't want LRT and streetcar expansion - which meets my complete approval.

    Care to post a link where he promised to keep building a streetcar network as well as LRT?

    Please and thank you.

    Quote Originally Posted by electrik
    Streetcars and the LRT plan are here to stay, Rob Ford broke that huge promise. His transit plan called for massive changes.

    So, you see, there isn't even one.

  52. #52
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    clearly i haven't... however, since i live in etobicoke, i was not subjected to non-civilized and bellow dignity living conditions in the rest of the city during 2 garbage strikes...

    even danny benedetto could not have done it better....

    etobicoke has privatized garbage removal, i am sure you clearly know that. we didn't have any issues evar.

    did you know that city garbage workers have around 15-16 tonnes per day "expectations" while privatized garbage workers are just bellow 30 tonnes?

    this came from a privatized garbage worker - and he was quite proud about it...

    do you think we should keep unionized garbage removers over privatized, and why?

    PS oh by the way - here is the excerpt from the link YOU PROVIDED:

    In New York City, La Cosa Nostra more or less dominated trash collection from the 1950s until Rudy Giuliani seized control of the industry as mayor in the 1990s. It all started when members worked their way into the Teamsters union, which included garbage truck drivers; this allowed the mob to dictate which companies the drivers would work for, effectively pushing out non-Mafia operations. (The Mafia also controlled the construction sector through unions.)

    geez, sounds awfully familiar...

  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo
    that comes as a big surprise to me, as Ford was and is a big proponent of subways. He was clear that he didn't want LRT and streetcar expansion - which meets my complete approval.

    Care to post a link where he promised to keep building a streetcar network as well as LRT?

    Please and thank you.
    The billion dollar lrt plan existed before the election, Ford promised to replace most of it with buses... Not gonna happen. Subways are great, but far more expensive and we can only afford to install a limited amount.

    Bicycle lanes are peanuts compared to all this stuff. PEANUTS. Just install them already.

  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo
    clearly i haven't... however, since i live in etobicoke, i was not subjected to non-civilized and bellow dignity living conditions in the rest of the city during 2 garbage strikes...
    And we get to the crux of it all now...

    If you live in Etobicoke why do you care about the Jarvis bike lane? I could understand if you owned a house in Cabbage Town, but you live in freak'n Etobicoke. Why should I care about what you think about Jarvis? I just think you're a fool for even opening your mouth about it unless you work for the city. If you do work for the city I think you should be forced to live in the area you're planning on changing. I don't care about Royal York Road and you shouldn't care about my thoughts on a bike lane there either. I wouldn't force you to put a bike path on it if you didn't want one.

    There are people who actually live downtown and people who like to think they live downtown.

  55. #55
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    I use Jarvis very often, and it is during rush hour

    in the afternoon (as a driver)...

    I also have an opinion on different things, including Jarvis bike line. If you don't agree with it, that is fine. However, I don't understand the tone of your post...

    Bike paths do not serve only people who live in areas where bike paths are built. They also serve people who use them to get where they want/need to get. I frequently use Dundas/Dupont connection on my bike from 427 to Bathurst...

    Don't work for the city.

    I also didn't piss on your pillow... It's the cat.

    Quote Originally Posted by Braids
    And we get to the crux of it all now...

    If you live in Etobicoke why do you care about the Jarvis bike lane? I could understand if you owned a house in Cabbage Town, but you live in freak'n Etobicoke. Why should I care about what you think about Jarvis? I just think you're a fool for even opening your mouth about it unless you work for the city. If you do work for the city I think you should be forced to live in the area you're planning on changing. I don't care about Royal York Road and you shouldn't care about my thoughts on a bike lane there either. I wouldn't force you to put a bike path on it if you didn't want one.

    There are people who actually live downtown and people who like to think they live downtown.

  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo
    in the afternoon (as a driver)...

    I also have an opinion on different things, including Jarvis bike line. If you don't agree with it, that is fine. However, I don't understand the tone of your post...

    Bike paths do not serve only people who live in areas where bike paths are built. They also serve people who use them to get where they want/need to get. I frequently use Dundas/Dupont connection on my bike from 427 to Bathurst...

    Don't work for the city.

    I also didn't piss on your pillow... It's the cat.
    That's nice that you use the road for about ten minutes a day, but what about the people who actually live and work in the NEIGHBOURHOOD? Don't we get a say in how OUR NEIGHBOURHOOD is developed or does somebody in Etobicoke or Scarborough get to decide how OUR NEIGHBOURHOOD is developed. Do you own a house in the St James town or Cabbage Town area and pay taxes? Would you like it if I was fighting for pig farms and sewage treatment plants to be built in your neighbourhood? We all don't want to live next to the Allen Express Way you know.

    Amalgimation was the worst thing that happened to the GTA.

  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Braids
    That's nice that you use the road for about ten minutes a day, but what about the people who actually live and work in the NEIGHBOURHOOD?
    what about them? what did i say that has neglected people who live and work in the neighbourhood? of course they should have a big say in how their neighbourhood is developed. i completely support that. it seems that you are assuming a bunch of things.

    Don't we get a say in how OUR NEIGHBOURHOOD is developed or does somebody in Etobicoke or Scarborough get to decide how OUR NEIGHBOURHOOD is developed.
    of course you do. however, the tax money is coming from etobicoke and scarborough as well. Toronto is not just from DVP to Bathurst and from Lakeshore to Bloor - newsflash.

    I believe that attitude like yours helped Ford in his campaign. Just my opinion.



    Do you own a house in the St James town or Cabbage Town area and pay taxes? Would you like it if I was fighting for pig farms and sewage treatment plants to be built in your neighbourhood? We all don't want to live next to the Allen Express Way you know.
    neither you nor I have that much say on what will be built in our neigbourhoods. You need to calm down. I am a homeowner in Etobicoke, but my taxes are spent in Cabbage Town as well. Doesn't matter where you live. You need support from Etobicoke and Scarborough and North York to prevent another garbage pile up in your neighbourhood...

    In the end - this is just an exchange of opinions and has no bearing on what is really happening out there. I am not involved in politics, nor I am interested. Just expressing my opinion and don't understand why you go up in arms about it.

    Amalgimation was the worst thing that happened to the GTA.
    I was hoping that the administration would be reduced. My hopes were foolish...
    Last edited by osokolo; 05-22-2011 at 12:58 PM.

  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Braids
    There are people who actually live downtown and people who like to think they live downtown.
    bingo, same thing up here in caledon with regard to trails and bike routes... though slowly it is changing but we got alot of catching up to do....

    in the mean time... fixing atv damage...

    broadcasting from
    "the vinyl basement"

    build trail!

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    http://news.nationalpost.com/2011/05...s-pedestrians/

    I've always assumed this to be true, but had never bothered to go look up the stats.

  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kay. View Post
    http://news.nationalpost.com/2011/05...s-pedestrians/

    I've always assumed this to be true, but had never bothered to go look up the stats.
    From personal experience I knew this was true long ago.

  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kay. View Post
    http://news.nationalpost.com/2011/05...s-pedestrians/

    I've always assumed this to be true, but had never bothered to go look up the stats.
    I'd be interested to see on what streets they happen the most on. I suspect it's mostly the mini-highways with pedestrian crossings spread every few miles instead of feet or crappy crossing lights like Jarvis, Mt Pleasant, Steeles, Finch and some places on Yonge, Adelaide, , etc, etc.
    I'd also going blame car culture in North America too. I'm going to miss being able to step up to a crosswalk and having cars stop and wait for me to cross instead of me waiting for a break in traffic and then having to run across a crossing so I don't get killed. I'm really afraid I may be one of the future pedestrian car collisions when return to Toronto because I'm so used to polite drivers here in Europe.

  62. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kay. View Post
    http://news.nationalpost.com/2011/05...s-pedestrians/

    I've always assumed this to be true, but had never bothered to go look up the stats.
    The language used there to describe the most common accidents irks me. It's so neutral you might think cyclists are the ones flinging themselves into your car door like birds into a shiny high-rise. I bet if that article's author dug further they would find that Toronto drivers are causing the majority of those most common accidents. I read a helmet camera based study from Australia and the so called "side-swipping" accident described in your statistics was initiated by motorists almost every single time. Most of the motorists left without even know what they did.

  63. #63
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    Hey Braids, you may be interested in this, just came out today:

    http://spacingtoronto.ca/2011/06/08/...comment-490950

    Re curbed bike lanes, I'm going to beat on that one more time in this now tired thread. I hadn't fired a single synapse of thought towards them other than a few flippant posts here, but now that the reality is upon us, I'm wondering how wide they have to be for one cyclist to safely overtake another. If the curbed lane isn't wide enough to pass safely, then wouldn't things get a little dicey? Any bets that Denzilwhotookhis2ndeverbicyclerideyesterday will be on top of that?

    It's so neutral you might think cyclists are the ones flinging themselves into your car door like birds into a shiny high-rise.
    This turn of phrase sir is a gem. The analogy is subtle and spot on. Adding a rep point now.

  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    The language used there to describe the most common accidents irks me. It's so neutral you might think cyclists are the ones flinging themselves into your car door like birds into a shiny high-rise. I bet if that article's author dug further they would find that Toronto drivers are causing the majority of those most common accidents. I read a helmet camera based study from Australia and the so called "side-swipping" accident described in your statistics was initiated by motorists almost every single time. Most of the motorists left without even know what they did.
    So very true, although a study from a few years ago found that one of the largest contributing factors for cyclists getting hit (in Toronto) was bikes entering an intersection/driveway from the sidewalk... I bike to work through downtown every day (and have been sideswiped, doored, you name it), but a big factor in this city is actually idiots on bikes, which motivates additional anti-bike sentiments.

    > Note, I'm just being a bit of a little devil's advocate here. Every time I've been hit it was clearly the driver at fault, and drivers in this city certainly need to pay a lot more attention to their surroundings... I also really like the idea of separated bike lanes along major routes, much like the ones in Montreal. <

  65. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghettocruiser View Post
    There are already hundreds of kilometers of excellent routes for bikes in Toronto.... the friggen right hand lane of any given roadway. Not the gutter, the lane. Including arterial roads if that's the shortest route.. why the hell should I be routed onto side streets (other than to appease a bunch of unhinged motorists who want to drive faster but don't have the talent to change lanes?)
    Ah.. there we see it. Part of the general problem with road users in Toronto. Attitude.. the whole my road get the Flinking Blip of it. And the accompanying I will kill any who stand in my way mentality of anyone on wheels.

  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by EvilScience View Post
    > Note, I'm just being a bit of a little devil's advocate here. Every time I've been hit it was clearly the driver at fault, and drivers in this city certainly need to pay a lot more attention to their surroundings... I also really like the idea of separated bike lanes along major routes, much like the ones in Montreal. <
    A little observation from a not of Toronto type.

    1972 till 2002 riding in Vancouver had 4 incidents- hit by cars.

    2002 to 2007 in Toronto had 6 incidents- cars hitting me. Incredibly one was some guy at a stoplight who decided he needed to get in front of the other lane. Then proceeded to try and use his bumper as a plow to force me out of his way.

    Though my personal favorite was the Scarborough idjit who clipped me and broke his mirror off. Then at the stoplight claimed I attacked him as he jumped out of his van to duke it out as I just arrived with mirror in hand.

    Yep.. drivers in Toronto are not homicidal in any capacity.

  67. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kay. View Post
    Hey Braids, you may be interested in this, just came out today:

    http://spacingtoronto.ca/2011/06/08/...comment-490950
    Thanks. I'm not sure if intersections is a good way to talk about pedestrian and car accidents though. I would really like to know if my feeling that a lot of the accidents happen on the mini-highways between crosswalks. It does seem like the mini-highways are bad for pedestrians though which is why we don't need Jarvis to become one!

    It backs up with I said, but with a caveat in the next paragraph.

    "The other lesson is about infrastructure. Most of the most dangerous intersections are along suburban arterials -- wide roads (meaning they take longer to cross) with fast speeds (meaning a car is more likely to cause injury)."

    I wish the map was a bit more interactive. I would like to be able to zoom in downtown because of the mess of white dots there. I would love to see how the Mount Pleasant/Jarvis area does with that screwed up crosswalk that no pedestrians seem to pay attention to at any hours. I also think that Jarvis and Bloor may have reduced number of pedestrian and car accidents per pedestrian because of the five years of construction that has been going on in that area. Car speed has been reduced and it's been harder to make "special manoeuvres" in that area because of the construction.

  68. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post
    A little observation from a not of Toronto type.

    1972 till 2002 riding in Vancouver had 4 incidents- hit by cars.

    2002 to 2007 in Toronto had 6 incidents- cars hitting me. Incredibly one was some guy at a stoplight who decided he needed to get in front of the other lane. Then proceeded to try and use his bumper as a plow to force me out of his way.

    Though my personal favorite was the Scarborough idjit who clipped me and broke his mirror off. Then at the stoplight claimed I attacked him as he jumped out of his van to duke it out as I just arrived with mirror in hand.

    Yep.. drivers in Toronto are not homicidal in any capacity.
    Absolutely agree with you! There are lots of angry, homicidal, or just moronic drivers in Toronto. Hell one woman who hit me honestly thought it was ok that she went through me (in the bike lane) to make a turn.

    I was just pointing out that there are also a LOT of idiots on bikes in the city, which greatly contributes to the high accident rates (or idiots on foot for that matter - the Ryerson students are like suicidal lemmings crossing Gerrard in the morning).

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    Had this passed along to me, think you guys will enjoy it.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzE-I...layer_embedded

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    Brilliant! It has occurred to me that I could let any number of collisions with a moving car actually happen instead of yielding my legal right-of-way. I'm pretty sure I could pick just the right kind of play so as to make a safe fall like this guy does, possibly with a few extra pads on, and then get a verdict which would actually cost the driver something. Initially I'd be shooting for something like the $110 fine which was issued here in Toronto recently for accidentally dooring a 57 year cyclist to death, but who knows with youtube it might grow into something a lot bigger.

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post
    Incredibly one was some guy at a stoplight who decided he needed to get in front of the other lane. Then proceeded to try and use his bumper as a plow to force me out of his way.
    I really wish that really was incredible. But it's pretty routine.

    April 30 was the last time I was deliberately hit by a car. Not hard, of course. But repeatedly. And with much driver profanity. He mentioned Rob Ford by name. And maybe Michael Bryant, it was hard to understand him.

    Considering I've back-roaded my usual commuting route and interact with maybe 20 or 30 cars a day, I get bumped out of the way with unfortunate frequency.

    I've had off-hour commutes where I was overtaken by three or four cars total on the trip, and every one of the them honked, swore, or passed within two feet.

    That said, whenever I drive or subway to work, I have so much "fun" that I wish I was on my bike, getting buzzed by cars.

    Hey... I'm heading to Scarborough on Eglinton East tonight with the "reserved diamond lane for bikes and buses only".

    Should be just awesome.
    The above statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration

  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post
    Ah.. there we see it. Part of the general problem with road users in Toronto. Attitude.. the whole my road get the Flinking Blip of it. And the accompanying I will kill any who stand in my way mentality of anyone on wheels.
    While that may sometimes be true, I don't see how my previous post was supposed to illustrate it.
    The above statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration

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    repeated post
    Last edited by trailtrash; 06-10-2011 at 04:55 AM.

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    The detailed proposal was released last week, and it contained an element I didn't see coming: a proposed two-way lane of less than or equal to double the width of existing standard 1.5 m one-way painted lanes. The single two-way lane design is of interest as it provides a means to allow delivery trucks to continue to access at least one side of the street.

    Now, I've ridden for years down in the valley and had no more than a lot of near misses passing oncoming riders. But, I can live with that risk because for the most part, there's a reasonably high and consistent standard of riding amongst the user community. In sharp contrast, there is no standard of riding whatsoever out on the open road, as we all know very well from the endless ranting of the motorists and peds on this topic. So, these new lanes, not due til 2012 at the earliest, could be very interesting indeed.

  75. #75
    Evil Jr.
    Reputation: garage monster's Avatar
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    Oct 2006
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    6,859
    Until its current reconstruction, we had a very nice bi-directional curbed bike lane crossing the 403 on King St. (which is one-way in that spot) in Hamilton. I don't recall the lane width exactly but it was more than adequate and bike traffic was well-behaved.

    It should all be back in place once they're done replacing the bridge... next year.
    Please enjoy seeing this terrible collection of me - something wonderful is about to happy.

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