Big news out of the US - New ADA Policy re: power-driven mobility devices on trails- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    Big news out of the US - New ADA Policy re: power-driven mobility devices on trails

    Just received this news alert from American Trails.

    http://www.americantrails.org/enewsl..._Jan_2011.html

    ALERT! On March 15, 2011, new Department of Justice rules will allow “power-driven mobility devices” to be used on trails by “individuals with mobility disabilities."

    This is big news. The final draft of the new Ontario legislation (released July 2010) is before the Minister for approval right now, but doesn't go to this extent (yet).
    TRCA
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  2. #2
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    This should be good...

    Please enjoy seeing this terrible collection of me - something wonderful is about to happy.

  3. #3
    namagomi
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    So, uh, not only do we have to dumb down the technical features for the XC crowd, but now things will have to be accessible by power-driven mobility devices? I am thinking grandpa on his schoooter.

    When do i get to ride my bicycle!

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik
    So, uh, not only do we have to dumb down the technical features for the XC crowd
    wow... are you one of those tough dudes that puts 20 pounds of body armour, leans his bike against the fence at Blue Mountain square and drink beer all day wondering if girls look at you?

    No need to dumb anything down for XC crowd... Come to Buckwallow or Hilton Falls and let's ride some rock, that is if you can pedal on flat. Pushing up the hill is ok - there are no chairs at Buck... or Hilton Falls FYI.

    what a dumb statement...

    Quote Originally Posted by electrik
    When do i get to ride my bicycle!
    how do i know? ask HIM. but first you have to drop the keyboard... seriously...

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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo
    but first you have to drop the keyboard... seriously...
    ....kettle pot situation goin on in here...

    Not to start a riot, but there appears to be a pattern on this forum, a select group of people post things, the osokolo feels the need to berate them for what they posted...often siting that they are keyboard jockeys...when to fight with keyboard jockeys, you yourself must be one...

    just an observation...

    To weigh in on the real topic of the post... seems like powered "mobility" device isnt a far throw from dirt bike to me, and we all know what happens when they get onto bike trails...
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by k1lluaA
    ....kettle pot situation goin on in here...

    Not to start a riot, but there appears to be a pattern on this forum, a select group of people post things,
    no kidding - a "select group" is definitely visible, albeit very minor. the only pattern that i see is that this "select group" talks shite about XC and "sausage suits" and "dumbing down trails for XC" etc, etc... and it always starts the same... always one way... you must be the "select one" as well?

    as much as the "select group" and you are entitled to your opinion - why deny it to the others, including me?


    the osokolo feels the need to berate them for what they posted...often siting that they are keyboard jockeys...when to fight with keyboard jockeys, you yourself must be one...
    the select guy electrik asked a question. i offered my suggestion, based on my observation, which is again - an opinion.

    just an observation...
    really? i hope it is not a privlege of just a "select group" to have one...

    To weigh in on the real topic of the post... seems like powered "mobility" device isnt a far throw from dirt bike to me, and we all know what happens when they get onto bike trails...
    i wonder how many disabled people will get on a 4x4 or a dirt bike and go thrashing the trails... those that are not disabled and do it daily, illegally, are much bigger issue... this law will not change existing situation much... just my OPINION...

  7. #7
    namagomi
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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo
    wow... are you one of those tough dudes that puts 20 pounds of body armour, leans his bike against the fence at Blue Mountain square and drink beer all day wondering if girls look at you?

    No need to dumb anything down for XC crowd... Come to Buckwallow or Hilton Falls and let's ride some rock, that is if you can pedal on flat. Pushing up the hill is ok - there are no chairs at Buck... or Hilton Falls FYI.

    what a dumb statement...



    how do i know? ask HIM. but first you have to drop the keyboard... seriously...
    Totally busted!!

    I am looking into those new e-bike kits for my DH rig!! All that pedaling up hill was winding me.

    Doesn't wearing lycra get more looks? It's like wearing nothing at all! I'm gonna go practice my "putting out the vibe" pose now... spring is almost here!

    A keyboard is a weapon of mass destruction and for sure you can't have mine!

  8. #8
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    yehaw! braaaaappppppp! get out of my way slow poke!

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    Excerpts from the American trails news alert....

    "What IS an "other power-driven mobility device?[...] In short an other power-driven mobility device is anything with a motor that can be driven, regardless of size or horsepower, if it is driven by a person who has a mobility related disability."

    "Who is to be allowed to use the other power-driven mobility devices? [...] The DOJ rules say anyone who has a mobility disability. A person using an other power-driven mobility device may be asked to provide a “credible assurance” that the mobility device is required because of the person's disability. That credible assurance can be showing a valid, State-issued, disability parking placard or card, or other State-issued proof of disability, or if the person doesn’t have any of those with them, they may simply say that the other power-driven mobility device is being used for a mobility disability. A person may not be asked if they have a disability or anything about their disability."

    Just like the proposed Ontario legislation, there will be exceptions....Important to note, do the assessment now so that you have recorded the conditions of your trail. "What do you need to do for your trail to be ready for March 15th when the DOJ rules on other power-driven mobility devices go into effect? [...] The DOJ rules requires an entity open to the public to make reasonable modifications in its policies, practices, or procedures to allow the use of other power-driven mobility devices by individuals with mobility disabilities, UNLESS: that entity can document that it has completed an assessment of the facility, trail, route or area, before the person requesting use of the device arrived onsite, and the entity found that class of other power-driven mobility device could not be used in that location due to one or more of the following DOJ assessment factors:

    (a) “The type, size, weight, dimensions, and speed of the device;

    (b) The volume of pedestrian traffic (which may vary at different times of the day, week, month, or year);

    (c) The design and operational characteristics (e.g., whether its service, program, or activity is conducted indoors, its square footage, the density and placement of stationary devices, and the availability of storage for the device, if requested by the user);

    (d) Whether legitimate safety requirements can be established to permit the safe operation of the other power-driven mobility device in the specific facility; and

    (e) Whether the use of the other power-driven mobility device creates a substantial risk of serious harm to the immediate environment or natural or cultural resources, or poses a conflict with Federal land management laws and regulations.”
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  10. #10
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    TRCA, what is the definition of "trail" in this policy? Does it apply to trails that are designated as multi-use or does it apply to an entire trail network under management?

    As a matter of principle, I am all for MUPs being made as accessible as possible to users with genuine disabilities but, as you pointed out, the loop holes here are big enough to drive a power-assisted truck through!

    And, oh ya, all that popcorn is making me thirsty!

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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster
    TRCA, what is the definition of "trail" in this policy? Does it apply to trails that are designated as multi-use or does it apply to an entire trail network under management?
    From the news alert:
    "This DOJ ruling applies to any place, indoors or outdoors, that is open to the public.
    Under the American with Disabilities Act (ADA) Title II this DOJ rule applies to trails on State or local government lands. Also under the ADA Title III it applies to other “public accommodations” that would include trails open to the public on privately or commercially managed lands. Federal agency managed lands are not directly covered under the ADA, however this rule sets legal precedents the Federal agencies must watch.
    "

    I'm not entirely sure whether that means that it would encompass ALL trails. It seems like it would. The proposed Ontario legislation (relating to trails anyway) openly states that the requirements are only for pedestrian trails, and don't apply to single-use non pedestrian trails (ie single-use mtn biking, equestrian, etc). Although they do say that regardless they should be designed to provide access to permitted trail users of all abilities. For example, an equestrian trail should ensure that the trail and all provided facilities can be used by equestrians with or without disabilities. This is a tough one to try and work with as I have not found any trail design specifications for a mtn biker with a disability or an equestrian with a disability.

    This webpage contains a bunch of Q&A relating to the legislation:
    http://www.americantrails.org/resour...s-answers.html

    "Q. What are the "public entities" and "public accommodations" the rule applies to?
    A. 28 CFR 35.104 (Title II) defines “Public Entity” as (1) Any State or local government; (2) Any department, agency, special purpose district, or other instrumentality of a State or States or local government; and (3) The National Railroad Passenger Corporation, and any commuter authority.
    28 CFR 36.104 (Title III) defines a public accommodation as a facility, operated by a private entity, whose operations affect commerce (is open to the public) and falls within at least one the twelve listed categories. On that list is (9) A park, zoo, amusement park, or other place of recreation. Therefore a trail that is operated by any private entity and is open to the public is a public accommodation and the rule applies to them.
    "

    "Q. What about nonprofit organizations that manage trails? What if the land is actually owned by another entity but operated by a nonprofit? What about private groups such as those operating equestrian facilities or OHV parks?
    A. Whether it is a nonprofit organization or a commercial establishment, both are considered to be public accommodations and the rule applies to both."

    "Q. Does the rule apply to natural surface trails as opposed to wide, paved hard-surfaced trails?
    A. The rule makes no distinction between dirt and pavement, or even between indoors and outdoors."

    "Q. How does this affect trails that are already on the ground? Do we have to make special accommodations or modify our facilities for these motorized units for persons with disabilities?
    A. This DOJ ruling deals with the use of the trail and is not about the construction of the trail, nor anything on the trails. It doesn't require any changes in the trail's construction or the facilities that support the trail."


    Those last two questions are messing with my head a little bit because it says its not dealing with the trail's construction....but to accommodate certain devices, wouldn't you have to retrofit the actual tread?
    Last edited by TRCA; 02-14-2011 at 12:04 PM.
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by TRCA
    Those last two questions are messing with my head a little bit because it says its not dealing with the trail's construction....but to accommodate certain devices, wouldn't you have to retrofit the actual tread?
    I'm right there with ya.

    Even if the Ontario rule applied to "pedestrian" trails, places like Hydrocut, that are meant for hikers and bikers, kinda sorta fit the bill. Holy complicated!
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by TRCA
    Those last two questions are messing with my head a little bit because it says its not dealing with the trail's construction....but to accommodate certain devices, wouldn't you have to retrofit the actual tread?
    retro fit of thread is an old issue with regards to playgrounds as well as building trails for people with mobility issues. i've worked on several such projects and see this as a growing trend as the population ages. this issue has been brewing for quite a few years, it's a good to see things being hashed out.

    the issue with motorized vehicles on the trails is an old one. i think motorized vehicles have a valid claim to have their own trails that are built to their specific requirements. just as we build sustainable trails for biking, the same can be done for orv. it is foolish to exclude them, they are a huge revenue source that can be channeled to purchase more land to naturalize and develop trails on.
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster
    I'm right there with ya.

    Even if the Ontario rule applied to "pedestrian" trails, places like Hydrocut, that are meant for hikers and bikers, kinda sorta fit the bill. Holy complicated!
    Thats a pretty real concern...

    Oskolo's dick remarks aside, this was what i was talking about up there, loop holes that allow people to DRIVE with handicap stickers who are in no way, shape, or form handicapped are the very same style of loop hole that will, as it seems, inevitably allow people who claim "handicap" or"mobility issues" to ride dirt bikes and other such things on trails that many people spend a lot of time building and maintaining..

    Ftr oskolo, i only posted my "opinion", of which you are welcome to have one, after observing literally too many posts to count, of endless arguing... Just thought id jump in this one time, as i agreed with elctrik, and read the article for what it was saying, and why TRCA posted it...

    oh, and you cant claim that you are being oppressed when you yourself do some oppressing...think about it...
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  15. #15
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    hey, you must have stayed in Holiday Express last night...

    Quote Originally Posted by k1lluaA
    Just thought id jump in this one time, as i agreed with elctrik, and read the article for what it was saying, and why TRCA posted it...
    So you agree with this shyte:

    Quote Originally Posted by electrik
    Well, I don't want to mention all those "honour" killings... but oops. Disobey and daddy sends your ass to India on a vacation you never return from or return from the same.
    or

    Quote Originally Posted by electrik
    So, uh, not only do we have to dumb down the technical features for the XC crowd
    to mention just a couple, which is completely within your rights. However, if you call my comments on shyte like that "dick", then dick i am my friend, for people like electrik and seems you as well, since you agree with that CRAP. good for you.

    on the "oppression" comment, no... i do not feel oppressed at all. i happily share all trails with other user groups, no matter what shorts they wear - lycra or baggies, or both... i am perfectly happy with man built features, as long as they are safe, and ride them as much as i can. i love what Peter and his group did to agreement forest/hilton falls, and i enjoy riding their structures. i even go down the blue mountain on my xc bike, so that i can pedal up again... i am not your enemy because i wear lycra, most of the times. you guys need to realize that... then there would be no "dicks" at least on this subject...

    back on this thread. those that abuse trails now illegally will continue to do that. they are real threat, that has not been dealt accordingly with. those that will abuse "handicapped" stickers will not make the situation quantifiably worse. at least in my opinion...

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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo
    i even go down the blue mountain on my xc bike, so that i can pedal up again... .

    Must resist...

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    Bringing other threads into this doesnt make much sense...i agreed with his post in this thread...just saying that arguements seem to start when certain peoples get involved...thought id jump into one..

    And think about it, if people are abusing trails now illegally get some kind of ability tolegalize what they are doing, doesnt that make the situation worse?

    or if people who arent trail abusers get the law on their side to essentially abuse built trails?
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    I seriously thought he was going to rape me"

  18. #18
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    it's not certain people...

    it's certain statements... the fact that certain statements usually come from same certain people is just a coincidence... it's about shyte statements... and i told you exactly which statements... they incite intolerance and ignorance... like we need more division within our group... wear what you want, ride what suits you... there is enough trails for everyone's taste...

    somehow i doubt that a few hundred mobility challenged people are just waiting for this legislation to pass, so that they can hop on their motorized bicycles or whatever other motor or electric powered devices to start ramming trails that we use...

    quite honestly, if this legislation calls for some sort of enforcement - maybe current illegal users on their motorized devices will be discouraged from breaking the law... we'll see what happens when it happens... i don't think anyone would put their money on this bet, either way...


    Quote Originally Posted by k1lluaA
    Bringing other threads into this doesnt make much sense...i agreed with his post in this thread...just saying that arguements seem to start when certain peoples get involved...thought id jump into one..

    And think about it, if people are abusing trails now illegally get some kind of ability tolegalize what they are doing, doesnt that make the situation worse?

    or if people who arent trail abusers get the law on their side to essentially abuse built trails?

  19. #19
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    care to elaborate?

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    Quote Originally Posted by k1lluaA
    Bringing other threads into this doesnt make much sense...i agreed with his post in this thread...just saying that arguements seem to start when certain peoples get involved...thought id jump into one..

    And think about it, if people are abusing trails now illegally get some kind of ability tolegalize what they are doing, doesnt that make the situation worse?

    or if people who arent trail abusers get the law on their side to essentially abuse built trails?

    There was a news story on Yahoo this week. It focused on the fact there are a huge number of bogus claims of handicaps in the system. It's not the first time this has been brought up. There are alot of people who milk the system to get that handicap symbol on their cars.

    And like a local woman here, have no apparent handicap. I have seen her jump, dance, and so on. Kind of odd really considering she is so challenged. Yet will park there. Meanwhile I see guy's with canes who struggle to walk who refuse to use the handicap spot.

  21. #21
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    sounds to me

    Quote Originally Posted by TRCA
    From the news alert:
    "Q. Does the rule apply to natural surface trails as opposed to wide, paved hard-surfaced trails?
    A. The rule makes no distinction between dirt and pavement, or even between indoors and outdoors."

    "Q. How does this affect trails that are already on the ground? Do we have to make special accommodations or modify our facilities for these motorized units for persons with disabilities?
    A. This DOJ ruling deals with the use of the trail and is not about the construction of the trail, nor anything on the trails. It doesn't require any changes in the trail's construction or the facilities that support the trail."

    Those last two questions are messing with my head a little bit because it says its not dealing with the trail's construction....but to accommodate certain devices, wouldn't you have to retrofit the actual tread?
    like the property management is not required to accommodate them, but is required to allow them to use the trails... which in itself is a loop hole as trails can be designed in a way to severely limit the size/shape of the motorized device...

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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo
    like the property management is not required to accommodate them, but is required to allow them to use the trails... which in itself is a loop hole as trails can be designed in a way to severely limit the size/shape of the motorized device...

    That would require a serious effort for clarification in regards to type of motor, horsepower, and so on. This while good has opened a up a whole new problem that really needs to be looked at as well.

    No different then current problems with EBikes tearing down sidewalks every where in Ontario.

  23. #23
    namagomi
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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo
    So you agree with this shyte:



    or



    to mention just a couple, which is completely within your rights. However, if you call my comments on shyte like that "dick", then dick i am my friend, for people like electrik and seems you as well, since you agree with that CRAP. good for you.

    on the "oppression" comment, no... i do not feel oppressed at all. i happily share all trails with other user groups, no matter what shorts they wear - lycra or baggies, or both... i am perfectly happy with man built features, as long as they are safe, and ride them as much as i can. i love what Peter and his group did to agreement forest/hilton falls, and i enjoy riding their structures. i even go down the blue mountain on my xc bike, so that i can pedal up again... i am not your enemy because i wear lycra, most of the times. you guys need to realize that... then there would be no "dicks" at least on this subject...

    back on this thread. those that abuse trails now illegally will continue to do that. they are real threat, that has not been dealt accordingly with. those that will abuse "handicapped" stickers will not make the situation quantifiably worse. at least in my opinion...
    Frankly, I find your school yard rants just hilarious and creative!! However, the only thing stopping you from spreading the gossip and trash talk faster is that you're oslowko!

  24. #24
    namagomi
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil
    There was a news story on Yahoo this week. It focused on the fact there are a huge number of bogus claims of handicaps in the system. It's not the first time this has been brought up. There are alot of people who milk the system to get that handicap symbol on their cars.

    And like a local woman here, have no apparent handicap. I have seen her jump, dance, and so on. Kind of odd really considering she is so challenged. Yet will park there. Meanwhile I see guy's with canes who struggle to walk who refuse to use the handicap spot.
    For sure the system is abused by some, others just don't want the handi-cap label maybe... I'm wondering one day if i'll encounter a handi-capped dirt-biker out there in hilton falls or kelso... that is a steep hill.

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    it's funny that no one here has mentioned the backlash in the states that has been generated by the blm. the public is getting pissed off with the restricted use of state and fed lands. influence is being gained by http://www.sharetrails.org/ with the handi-cap issue being one of the points to allow motorized trail use. the same thing will happen in ontario. for example a jeep club in brampton has just as many members as the caledon cycling club and substantially more resources (car dealerships, heavy equipment operators, landscapers, large landowners, farmers, truckers, garages, etc). right now they are a sleeping tiger though i can see them getting active for equal trail access.
    Last edited by singlesprocket; 02-12-2011 at 05:17 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket
    retro fit of thread is an old issue with regards to playgrounds as well as building trails for people with mobility issues. i've worked on several such projects and see this as a growing trend as the population ages. this issue has been brewing for quite a few years, it's a good to see things being hashed out.

    the issue with motorized vehicles on the trails is an old one. i think motorized vehicles have a valid claim to have their own trails that are built to their specific requirements. just as we build sustainable trails for biking, the same can be done for orv. it is foolish to exclude them, they are a huge revenue source that can be channeled to purchase more land to naturalize and develop trails on.
    Good post on an interesting topic. It would be great if everyone could enjoy our public lands. SS were the projects you worked on for trails? Sounds interesting and I would like to hear more. Motorized/ horses/MTB/hikers could all use the same trail if they were built for that purpose, but they would not be tight and tech like alot of us like. Very good topic about sharing the trails, it is interesting to read ideas on how to make this happen. I feel it will not work if all trails are suddenly considered multi use without some reworking of the trail bed.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phat Tyred
    Good post on an interesting topic. It would be great if everyone could enjoy our public lands. SS were the projects you worked on for trails? Sounds interesting and I would like to hear more. Motorized/ horses/MTB/hikers could all use the same trail if they were built for that purpose, but they would not be tight and tech like alot of us like. Very good topic about sharing the trails, it is interesting to read ideas on how to make this happen. I feel it will not work if all trails are suddenly considered multi use without some reworking of the trail bed.

    playground wheelchair access and wheelchair access for park trails. currently the product i make/invented is being used in systems for both. it is also being used in trails (private/public in ontario and elsewhere). a larger scale test will also occur this spring in a gta problem zone. the development of trail hardening systems has lagged over the years and alot of work needs to be done. mind you the issue is more then just trails, but also to build lower impact roads in the oilpatch or mining areas. though all trail users will benefit from the developing technologies.
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket
    playground wheelchair access and wheelchair access for park trails. currently the product i make/invented is being used in systems for both. it is also being used in trails (private/public in ontario and elsewhere). a larger scale test will also occur this spring in a gta problem zone. the development of trail hardening systems has lagged over the years and alot of work needs to be done. mind you the issue is more then just trails, but also to build lower impact roads in the oilpatch or mining areas. though all trail users will benefit from the developing technologies.
    Very Cool ... is the product manufactured like a mat or carpet or is it a combination of soil types with a living surface ... grass family?

  29. #29
    namagomi
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket
    it's funny that no one here has mentioned the backlash in the states that has been generated by the blm. the public is getting pissed off with the restricted use of state and fed lands. influence is being gained by http://www.sharetrails.org/ with the handi-cap issue being one of the points to allow motorized trail use. the same thing will happen in ontario. for example a jeep club in brampton has just as many members as the caledon cycling club and substantially more resources (car dealerships, heavy equipment operators, landscapers, large landowners, farmers, truckers, garages, etc). right now they are a sleeping tiger though i can see them getting active for equal trail access.
    A little more off topic...

    That pattern, IMO, is the end-game of the "sierra club" play. The environmentalist's political bubble will burst(hippies have to die too) and in will come everybody and his uncle. Too bad they can't see the more exclusive and persnickety it gets on the trail the worse off we're going to be. In that light I see most of these thinly veiled environmentalist members(conscious or not) as destructive entities and they won't get my support.

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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik
    A little more off topic...

    That pattern, IMO, is the end-game of the "sierra club" play. The environmentalist's political bubble will burst(hippies have to die too) and in will come everybody and his uncle. Too bad they can't see the more exclusive and persnickety it gets on the trail the worse off we're going to be. In that light I see most of these thinly veiled environmentalist members(conscious or not) as destructive entities and they won't get my support.

    I mentioned this earlier in a previous thread. Shirk shared this originally.

    In Squamish BC the mountain bikers and dirtbikers basically came to an agreement. This came about by the two parties meeting for a coffee and actually talking. No environmental types, no special interest save the moss types, and the rest of their ilk.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phat Tyred
    Very Cool ... is the product manufactured like a mat or carpet or is it a combination of soil types with a living surface ... grass family?
    yes, yes (though native species) and more complex systems. if you are ever at the evergreen brickworks some of it is installed out back.
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket
    yes, yes (though native species) and more complex systems. if you are ever at the evergreen brickworks some of it is installed out back.
    Is it a variation on that rubber mat sheet, with finer "pellets"?
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket
    yes, yes (though native species) and more complex systems. if you are ever at the evergreen brickworks some of it is installed out back.
    Um, I will try again, Is it grass grown in/on/through a non natural substance?

  34. #34
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    LOL... that was funny...

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster
    Is it a variation on that rubber mat sheet, with finer "pellets"?
    nope very different.
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  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phat Tyred
    Um, I will try again, Is it grass grown in/on/through a non natural substance?
    both, i can grow unique cultures within the matrix and outside of it... anaerobic and aerobic
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket
    both, i can grow unique cultures within the matrix and outside of it... anaerobic and aerobic
    Sounds very interesting, especially growing something that binds, not just digests, in an anaerobic climate.

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    this grass discussion is interesting...i would also be up for hearing more about the subject, especially since you used the word grow...i thought it would have been all artificial...

    and i know we have moved on, but..

    What do i need to elaborate? Think about the possibilities of all kinds of different groups that have the potential to carry "disabled" peoples within their ranks, snowmobiles, atvs, dirt bikes, etc...the list is endless. Ill try to make this point as clear as possible, because you seem to be failing to understand my point.

    The law exists to serve people, and keep people safe. In an ideal world. What we live in is far from ideal, because the law serves more to accommodate individuals ******** than serve the greater good of the public. Lets look at an occasion in the past where a few people have bolstered the law into destroying someone else's fun. Where i live in scarborough, and in other areas of the city, kids are not allowed to play street hockey, basketball, or other such games in the road. Why?, well what comes to mind is childrens safety, but thats far from the reason.

    The real reason is that a couple arseholes didnt like the noise that kids were making, or the occasional broken piece of property, and decided that the law should protect them from one group enjoying something.

    Try to wrap your head around what happens when the law starts to exist to aide those people who want to use things, and never do anything to maintain those things for future usage. WE ALL LOSE. Imagine an Ontario, not unlike the one we live in now, where if one person ("disabled") decided that they wanted to enjoy their ATV on a multi use trail, however there were areas of said trail that were not accessible for an ATV. What happens here?

    I give a 90% chance of the trail being modified so that an ATV could use it, just to allow one person to tear up a trail.
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  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by k1lluaA
    .

    Try to wrap your head around what happens when the law starts to exist to aide those people who want to use things, and never do anything to maintain those things for future usage. WE ALL LOSE. Imagine an Ontario, not unlike the one we live in now, where if one person decided that they wanted to enjoy their MTB on a multi use trail, however there were areas of said trail that were not accessible for an MTB. What happens here?

    I give a 90% chance of the trail being modified so that an MTB could use it, just to allow one person to tear up a trail.
    i've replaced atv with mtb and it sounds like the rhetoric i've heard somewhere else...

    though i agree that motorized trails and nonmotorized trails should be seperated. though just because the trail is motorized does not mean it can't be sustainable and built/maintained to the same standards as any other trail.

    the biggest issue facing all trail users in eastern ontario is the loss of land to recreate on from development. that's a huge problem that just one user group can't solve...
    broadcasting from
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    For me this is the point, Thanks k1lluaA.

    "Try to wrap your head around what happens when the law starts to exist to aide those people who want to use things, and never do anything to maintain those things for future usage. "

    It will certainly discourage the people who were maintaining those things to the point where future usage will be in jeopardy.

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by k1lluaA
    Think about the possibilities of all kinds of different groups that have the potential to carry "disabled" peoples within their ranks, snowmobiles, atvs, dirt bikes, etc...the list is endless. Ill try to make this point as clear as possible, because you seem to be failing to understand my point.

    The law exists to serve people, and keep people safe. In an ideal world. What we live in is far from ideal, because the law serves more to accommodate individuals ******** than serve the greater good of the public. Lets look at an occasion in the past where a few people have bolstered the law into destroying someone else's fun. Where i live in scarborough, and in other areas of the city, kids are not allowed to play street hockey, basketball, or other such games in the road. Why?, well what comes to mind is childrens safety, but thats far from the reason.

    The real reason is that a couple arseholes didnt like the noise that kids were making, or the occasional broken piece of property, and decided that the law should protect them from one group enjoying something.

    Try to wrap your head around what happens when the law starts to exist to aide those people who want to use things, and never do anything to maintain those things for future usage. WE ALL LOSE. Imagine an Ontario, not unlike the one we live in now, where if one person ("disabled") decided that they wanted to enjoy their ATV on a multi use trail, however there were areas of said trail that were not accessible for an ATV. What happens here?

    I give a 90% chance of the trail being modified so that an ATV could use it, just to allow one person to tear up a trail.
    there is a legitimate reason for the changes too...
    http://www.yorkregion.com/news/artic...on-ride-of-joy
    can these kids be expected to maintain trails?

    your point is valid though. it's not so much the changes as the abuse of the changes that's the problem. both in mis-use and lack of maintenance.

    it's worth noting though, there will be no fighting this.

    the ADA is THE defining body for all matters 'accessibility'. their policies and practices (despite the first A) are all but adopted verbatim in Canada...if they want it...it happens.
    this is not an 'interest group'.
    this is a defining body.

    they are the reason buses (public transit in general) costs 3x what it should. why new buildings (of size/use) must install elevators. why the width of our doors, height of our switches and counters are all predetermined.
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    it's worth noting though, there will be no fighting this.

    the ADA is THE defining body for all matters 'accessibility'. their policies and practices (despite the first A) are all but adopted verbatim in Canada...if they want it...it happens.
    this is not an 'interest group'.
    this is a defining body.
    Its true.
    There are 5 parts to the proposed new Ontario legislation> Customer Service, Employment, Information and Communications, Public Transportation, and Built Environment.
    http://www.mcss.gov.on.ca/en/mcss/pr...rds/index.aspx
    "Where are we now?
    The Accessibility Standards for Customer Service Regulation is now law. It came into effect on January 1, 2008. Public sector organizations have to meet requirements under this standard by January 1, 2010. The private sector and non-profit organizations will follow January 1, 2012. The remaining standards are being finalized now.
    "

    http://www.mcss.gov.on.ca/en/mcss/pr...erService.aspx
    This page has the Customer Service Stds

    http://www.mcss.gov.on.ca/en/mcss/pr...ity/index.aspx
    "Making Ontario accessible
    On June 13, 2005, the government passed the Accessibility for Ontarians with Disabilities Act, 2005.
    The act:
    * makes Ontario the first jurisdiction in Canada to develop, implement and enforce mandatory accessibility standards, and
    * applies to both the private and public sectors.
    About 1.85 million people in Ontario have a disability. That's one in seven people. Over the next 20 years as the population ages, the number will rise to one in five Ontarians.
    Ontario needs to be more accessible to people with disabilities. It makes good sense — economically and socially.
    Through the act and the accessibility standards, our goal is to make Ontario accessible by 2025
    "
    Last edited by TRCA; 02-14-2011 at 12:03 PM.
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  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by TRCA
    About 1.85 million people in Ontario have a disability. That's one in seven people. Over the next 20 years as the population ages, the number will rise to one in five Ontarians.
    Ontario needs to be more accessible to people with disabilities. It makes good sense — economically and socially.
    Through the act and the accessibility standards, our goal is to make Ontario accessible by 2025"
    that number (1 in 7) makes me sick.
    the def'n of DISABILITY is utter bullshite.

    drove to homedepot (newmarket) yesterday and had to park in bradford because the first 50 spots were handicap.

    my (now chronic) hip?
    eligible for a blue parking pass...

    i know explicitly the costs of accessibility.
    called the blue movement and makes 'green' look like childs play.

    there isn't a soul that can argue it makes economic sense...social sense yes...economic, eff no.
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  44. #44
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    It's a good thing to keep in mind for future trail development but I am totally puzzled at how accessibility standards can be applied to existing single-track. Even with tread modification, the grades and features involved are practically designed to be "inaccessible".
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  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by nogearshere
    that number (1 in 7) makes me sick.
    the def'n of DISABILITY is utter bullshite.

    drove to homedepot (newmarket) yesterday and had to park in bradford because the first 50 spots were handicap.

    my (now chronic) hip?
    eligible for a blue parking pass...

    i know explicitly the costs of accessibility.
    called the blue movement and makes 'green' look like childs play.

    there isn't a soul that can argue it makes economic sense...social sense yes...economic, eff no.
    Here is some information on the definition of 'disability' from the Ministry of Communications and Social Services.
    http://www.mcss.gov.on.ca/en/mcss/pr...abilities.aspx
    "When you hear the word "disability", what pops into your mind?
    Do you think of a person who uses a wheelchair? Or a person with a service animal?
    There are many kinds of disabilities. They can be visible, hidden, permanent, or occur only at certain times.
    Types of disabilities:
    * vision
    * hearing
    * physical
    * intellectual
    * developmental
    * learning
    * mental health
    * speech or language
    * deaf-blind.
    Disabilities vary. Being hard of hearing is different from being Deaf. Having low vision is different from being legally blind.
    A disability can happen to any one at any time. Some people are born with a disability. For others, the disability happens because of an illness or an accident. Sometimes it's because the person is getting older. In fact, as the population ages, many of us may eventually face some kind of limitation.
    "
    Last edited by TRCA; 02-14-2011 at 12:02 PM.
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  46. #46
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    I'm going to guess that improved access to trails and recreation facilities would be more of a bonus to new legislation than the reason for initiating the process in the first place. These are likely the main concerns:

    http://www.mcss.gov.on.ca/en/mcss/pr..._barriers.aspx
    "What are barriers to accessibility?
    We go to work. We go shopping. We take in a movie and grab a bite to eat afterwards. Most of us don't think twice about it. But that's not always the case for people with disabilities. People with disabilities often don't do many of the activities that most of us take for granted. It's not because they don't want to. It's because they can't. That's because barriers stop them. Barriers are obstacles. Barriers make shopping, working, going to a movie or taking public transit difficult, sometimes impossible, for people with disabilities.

    There are many kinds of barriers.
    Architectural and physical barriers are features of buildings or spaces that cause problems for people with disabilities. Examples are:
    * hallways and doorways that are too narrow for a person using a wheelchair, electric scooter or walker
    * counters that are too high for a person of short stature
    * poor lighting for people with low vision
    * doorknobs that are difficult for people with arthritis to grasp
    * parking spaces that are too narrow for a driver who uses a wheelchair
    * telephones that are not equipped with telecommunications devices for people who are Deaf, deafened or hard of hearing

    Information or communications barriers happen when a person can't easily understand information. Examples are:
    * print is too small to read
    * websites that can't be accessed by people who do are not able to use a mouse
    * signs that are not clear or easily understood

    Attitudinal barriers are those that discriminate against people with disabilities. Examples are:
    * thinking that people with disabilities are inferior
    * assuming that a person who has a speech impairment can't understand you

    Technology barriers occur when a technology can't be modified to support various assistive devices. An example is:
    * a website that doesn't support screen-reading software

    Organizational barriers are an organization's policies, practices or procedures that discriminate against people with disabilities. An example is:
    * a hiring process that is not open to people with disabilities"
    TRCA
    Toronto and Region Conservation Authority
    Email: [email protected]
    Web: http://www.trca.on.ca/
    Phone: (416) 661-6600

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by k1lluaA
    this grass discussion is interesting...i would also be up for hearing more about the subject, especially since you used the word grow...i thought it would have been all artificial...

    and i know we have moved on, but..

    What do i need to elaborate? Think about the possibilities of all kinds of different groups that have the potential to carry "disabled" peoples within their ranks, snowmobiles, atvs, dirt bikes, etc...the list is endless. Ill try to make this point as clear as possible, because you seem to be failing to understand my point.

    ...

    I give a 90% chance of the trail being modified so that an ATV could use it, just to allow one person to tear up a trail.
    Sorry, I did not ask YOU to elaborate, but Enduramil. I believe I understood your point, but stated that I did not completely agree with you. I find it hypocritical that you entered this discussion by invoking "pot calling kettle" to describe my post, yet you respond to posts that are not even directed at you. Relax. I am not your enemy.

    This discussion is good, so assuming that we REALLY can move on - I will clarify my standing for you. While you say there is 90% likelihood that the trails will be modified/built to suit these motorized devices, I feel it is more like 5%, if it can be quantified at all. If anything, as someone suggested - they may be separated, as that would make the most sense.

    If they are separated - that would actually be a good thing for MTB, as we can use these trails as well, which is not quite as easy the other way around. The downfall is purely environmental issue with gasoline engines and emissions as well as physical damage... Although I have learned not to underestimate the lack of common sense (to be politically correct) that some of our lawmakers are exhibiting lately (http://www.xtra.ca/public/National/W...hind-9522.aspx to name just the latest one) I hope that common sense will prevail on this one. Comparing city by-laws (idiotic street hockey or tobogganing by-laws - I agree with you) with something that must be passed provincially or even federally - is a bit of a stretch, however, admittedly not impossible based on above example.

    Way bigger issue (as pointed out by someone) is the development and other user groups. That is where the battle should be fought because we have a long losing record. Also as Phat has been pointing out for a while from his trail builder's angle which was in the past obscured by his presentation (but should not have lessened the importance of the issue), is if we don't change our attitude, which for most of us, is based only on usage of trails, without much regard to maintenance - we will soon be in trouble. I am admitting that I was somewhat ignorant about this issue, but have changed my standing on it and understanding it a bit more. We all have to find a way to support our trail system through investing time or money or both in it. That, combined with a strong user group representation in the right places, is way more productive and important than the law we are discussing here, at least in my opinion.

    Also, though it sounds small or petty, we have to stop fighting each other based on type of outfit or size of the suspension or weight of our bikes and direct our energies elsewhere where it will help our cause, not further divide (and weaken) our cause.

    Hope you will stop me next time when you run into me on the trail and we can have a quality beer in the parking lot. Intrawebs, while useful tool, often paints people and discussions wrong, unintentionally. The only excuse to use it for debates, is the weather which is merciless right now. Not cold enough to ride Hilton Falls/Agreement.
    Last edited by osokolo; 02-14-2011 at 08:49 AM.

  48. #48
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    I remain confused by this one.
    I do support having multi-use trails designed with an eye for accessibility.
    It was fantastic that there were participants in the 24 hour that were running hand-bikes. I appreciated what Chico did for that - designing a somewhat flatter, wider, shorter course specifically for those bikes. I wonder (worry?) that such legislation could be interpreted such that everyone would have to run that course, and the (very fun) singletrack would have to be destroyed, as it presents a barrier to accessibility.
    Is that the correct interpretation?
    I want my aging parents to be able to experience the great outdoors. But they would never attempt to ride the North Shore (as an example), nor would they want it to be destroyed simply because they can't do it.

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by nogearshere
    that number (1 in 7) makes me sick.
    the def'n of DISABILITY is utter bullshite.

    drove to homedepot (newmarket) yesterday and had to park in bradford because the first 50 spots were handicap.

    my (now chronic) hip?
    eligible for a blue parking pass...

    i know explicitly the costs of accessibility.
    called the blue movement and makes 'green' look like childs play.

    there isn't a soul that can argue it makes economic sense...social sense yes...economic, eff no.
    agreed... It is the RIGHT thing to do our best to enable people with disabilities to enjoy the life as much as they can. However, those that abuse the definition are the lowest of the low and should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. I often see "disabled" people who park in designated areas and are in better shape then me. That is LOW.

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo
    care to elaborate?

    Okay... you asked for it.

    Blue is not a farking mountain.

  51. #51
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    oh yes... you will not get an argument from me on that... I miss real mountains... mole hills are not good enough, but are better than nothing...

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by TRCA
    Disabilities vary. Being hard of hearing is different from being Deaf. Having low vision is different from being legally blind.
    A disability can happen to any one at any time. Some people are born with a disability. For others, the disability happens because of an illness or an accident. Sometimes it's because the person is getting older. In fact, as the population ages, many of us may eventually face some kind of limitation."
    i have been in the 'accessibility-homecare' business for near 20 years.
    the blanket declaration of DISABILITY has done more to impede equality and actual accessibility then any physical barrier.

    waiving a pen and declaring that MILLIONS are suffering from 'limitations' is creating such a strain on actual 'accessibility' initiatives and funding programs that many cities and townships across NA are shrugging at ADA and either cutting back programs or simply refusing to comply (for fiscal reasons). and winning.

    no one wants to be that insensitive lout that says THIS needs more than THAT. someone needs to.

    as 'disabilities' are being added to the 'list' we are seeing the demographic skyrocket.
    great for business...

    within 10 years and the stupification of our condition i predict the number of 'disabled' persons to near 50%. the vast majority of them being able bodied.

    what does that mean?
    it means that the 1-2% of the population that requires genuine consideration for accessibility, may not be getting it.

    see you at the bottom.
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  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by nogearshere
    waiving a pen and declaring that MILLIONS are suffering from 'limitations' is creating such a strain on actual 'accessibility' initiatives and funding programs that many cities and townships across NA are shrugging at ADA and either cutting back programs or simply refusing to comply (for fiscal reasons). and winning.
    As a handi-professional, what do you suggest for people in TRCA's position? Ignore the legislation and plead poverty when the lawsuits start rolling in?
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  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by nogearshere
    i have been in the 'accessibility-homecare' business for near 20 years.
    the blanket declaration of DISABILITY has done more to impede equality and actual accessibility then any physical barrier.

    waiving a pen and declaring that MILLIONS are suffering from 'limitations' is creating such a strain on actual 'accessibility' initiatives and funding programs that many cities and townships across NA are shrugging at ADA and either cutting back programs or simply refusing to comply (for fiscal reasons). and winning.

    no one wants to be that insensitive lout that says THIS needs more than THAT. someone needs to.

    as 'disabilities' are being added to the 'list' we are seeing the demographic skyrocket.
    great for business...

    within 10 years and the stupification of our condition i predict the number of 'disabled' persons to near 50%. the vast majority of them being able bodied.

    what does that mean?
    it means that the 1-2% of the population that requires genuine consideration for accessibility, may not be getting it.

    see you at the bottom.
    Bingo. Where have I seen this type of law making before?? I know, look at the whole Title X and what it did. Great idea based on good intentions but did nothing to address the problem.

    You could spend millions making trails accessible yet that will do nothing to make them go into the woods. Those like the handcycle guy's at Summer Solstice or Stacy Kohut do so because they want to. You cannot force them into the woods.

    You really want to do something for the guy's who want some accesible trails. Invite the handcycles guy's to sit down for a coffee and talk about what they really need. As you say No Gears, these guy's don't want much. The problem starts when all the able bodied "experts" start deciding what they need. One thing I learned from just the wheel chair guy's is ask them directly if they need anything. They will tell you. Other wise stay out of their way while they get it done.

    Great example. The gym in Van I used to work at had a member who was in a wheel chair. Wanted no special treatment and no accomodation. This guy lifted 5 days a week and if you wanted to piss him off.*Try to assume he needed help. The only help he wanted was that we opened the back door on the day's he was tired- the guy considered 3 steps a challenge not a barrier. Fark the guy thought wheelie drops off the steps where fun.

    Hell, I doubt Whistler made many changes to accomodate Stacy Kohut and less then the 10 guy's in wheelchairs doing DH runs in summer.

  55. #55
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    well, looks like they are already doing it...

    http://of4wd.com/


    worth a read

    http://of4wd.com/about.asp
    broadcasting from
    "the vinyl basement"

    build trail!

  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster
    As a handi-professional, what do you suggest for people in TRCA's position? Ignore the legislation and plead poverty when the lawsuits start rolling in?
    now a times the lawsuits are often cheaper.
    if they don't install audible trail crossing notifications i'll sue...

    22 years ago i worked at (then) ontario bus during the development of the first wheelchair accessible mass transit bus...EVERY bus could now accommodate ANYONE.

    people shite themselves with hollierthanthou excitement...wider walkways, no stairs, w/c tie-downs, ramps and full curb-side kneeling.

    almost immediately funding agencies put the caveat in place, want our money, be accessible.

    three times the cost with less than one third the ridership.
    ttc had to eat i don't know how many...
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  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster
    As a handi-professional, what do you suggest for people in TRCA's position? Ignore the legislation and plead poverty when the lawsuits start rolling in?
    sorry i rambled...
    TRCA should ask for members of THAT community to act as advisors.

    que sprocket with the usual whataboutmeiwantstufftoo rhetoric.
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  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by nogearshere
    sorry i rambled...
    TRCA should ask for members of THAT community to act as advisors.
    That's actually probably a really good idea. That way, if it ever got all the way to a lawsuit, they could demonstrate that they've at least done something to address that user group's needs.

    Last week, I sat in on the Hamilton Conservation Authority Advisory Board meeting and it was very well run. The HCA has a few such boards (like for deer control) but I don't know if *the* TRCA (as opposed to TRCA the poster) has the same structure.
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  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by nogearshere
    sorry i rambled...
    TRCA should ask for members of THAT community to act as advisors.
    Is there an echo in here??

    This is exactly what I believe. I saw the same thing when I lived in Scarborough across Sheppard from Malvern. During the 2005 Year of the Gun as they call it. Heard lot's of "They need this" from the "experts". Yet no one actually asked " What do they actually need?"



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  60. #60
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    Endura hits it right on... Ask them what they want, and adjust from there...dont just start clear cutting and hope that they will get some enjoyment out of it.

    I liken the approach you talk about to people getting offended when i make a joke to a good friend of mine, mostly an off color joke, and my friend takes no offense..

    Since when did it become ok for anyone to be offended about anything? Let the people who all want to "make a difference" have carte blanche and it may as well be anarchy..

    and as an aside...ive never cut anyone out of something, or made jokes or any such thing at anyones outfit, type of shorts, etc...so please stop reciting that into your posts like its some kind of gospel.
    2008 Kona Caldera

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  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by k1lluaA
    ive never cut anyone out of something, or made jokes or any such thing at anyones outfit, type of shorts, etc...so please stop reciting that into your posts like its some kind of gospel.
    stick to the facts?
    what internet are you from?
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  62. #62
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    There has been significant consultation done on this, apparently.This document is an interesting read> Trails for All Ontarians: Guidelines and Best Practices for the Design, Construction and Maintenance of Sustainable Trails for All Ontarians.
    http://www.abilitiescentre.org/trails/
    I mentioned that the final proposed built standards are awaiting approval from the Minister now? Well the first round of proposed standards was a little beefier, and was based very closely on this document.

    "Who was involved in developing these guidelines and best practices?
    These guidelines and best practices for Ontario trails were developed through a collaborative partnership of local, regional, and provincial disability and trail organizations. The Trails for All Ontarians Collaborative was an alliance of existing organizations that was created to complete the development and evaluation of these guidelines and best practices.
    The partners of the Trails for All Ontarians Collaborative were:
    * Abilities Centre
    * Active Living Alliance for Canadians with a Disability
    * Fitness Friends
    * Get Active Now - Active Living Resource Centre for Ontarians with a Disability
    * Go For Green
    * Haliburton Highlands Trails and Tours Network
    * Hike Ontario
    * Huronia Trails and Greenways
    * Kawartha Lakes Green Trails Alliance
    * Oak Ridges Trail Association
    * Ontario Trails Council
    * Township of Uxbridge
    * Trans Canada Trail Ontario
    * Variety Village
    * Wye Marsh Wildlife Centre
    The success of this project was further enhanced by the contributions received from dozens of individuals, conservation authorities, municipalities, disability organizations and the following supporting organizations:
    * Active Living Coalition for Older Adults
    * Central Ontario Loop Trail (COLT)
    * City of Toronto
    * Pathways to Health Committee
    * Quetico Provincial Park"


    "Will following these guidelines make a trail accessible to everyone?
    The answer to this question is an emphatic " NO ". It is absolutely impossible to make a trail that is accessible to everyone . There will always be some people who do not want to or cannot use a trail no matter how the trail is designed, constructed and maintained. For example, some people are allergic to sunlight and therefore could only use a trail that was safe to use in the middle of the night. Other people have fears of being outside, and would never choose to use an outdoor trail. There are also many trails that are intimidating to a wide range of potential users (e.g., women, older adults) because there is a strong perception of the trail being unsafe or that trail users may be unacceptably vulnerable to harm.
    It must also be recognized that the needs of different trail users often conflict . By creating a trail that is designed to meet the needs of one group of trail users, the possibility for enjoyment of the trail by other potential users is decreased. For example, as stated earlier, it is a commonly held myth that trails must be paved in order to be accessible to people who use mobility devices, such as wheelchairs or scooters. Even if a trail is paved because of such "good intentions", a paved surface automatically makes the trail less appropriate for people who prefer an unpaved surface (e.g., runners, equestrians, or people who walk with an artificial leg). Each characteristic of a trail will encourage some users and discourage others. The key to achieving "best practices" is to ensure that the full spectrum of trail opportunities is available to all members of the community within their local area."
    TRCA
    Toronto and Region Conservation Authority
    Email: [email protected]
    Web: http://www.trca.on.ca/
    Phone: (416) 661-6600

  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by TRCA
    The key to achieving "best practices" is to ensure that the full spectrum of trail opportunities is available to all members of the community within their local area."[/I]
    i heard that somewhere before? oh yeah that's right...
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  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket
    i heard that somewhere before? oh yeah that's right...
    have someone read it to you if necessary.

    "Will following these guidelines make a trail accessible to everyone?
    The answer to this question is an emphatic " NO ". It is absolutely impossible to make a trail that is accessible to everyone . There will always be some people who do not want to or cannot use a trail no matter how the trail is designed..."
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  65. #65
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    There is a company out of Nevada called Beneficial Designs, and they've created this trail assessment process called UTAP (the Universal Trail Assessment Process).
    http://www.beneficialdesigns.com/index.html
    "The Universal Trail Assessment Process (UTAP) objectively documents the actual conditions in outdoor, natural environments. The UTAP is a tool that land managers, agencies and individuals can utilize to learn about, monitor, improve and use any outdoor path of travel."

    "Background
    Project Goal: Beneficial Designs received funding in June of 1993 to create a universal mapping system to communicate detailed and pertinent information about individual trails. The information was designed to be useful to anyone who might want to hike a trail, regardless of their hiking ability.

    Trail Access Information: Existing trail rating systems using subjective descriptions such as "difficult" do not give users the information they may need to safely attempt a hike. In a 1991 pilot study, Beneficial Designs identified trail characteristics that would allow hikers of all abilities to decide whether to undertake a particular trail and make necessary safety or equipment preparations beforehand. These characteristics include trail grade, cross slope, width, surface firmness, and the presence of obstacles. The dimensions and locations of obstacles such as tree roots, boulders or large rocks, water crossings, ruts, vertical obstructions, steps, dangerous plants, and drop-offs were noted."


    Beneficial Design has created a High Efficiency version of this assessment process called HETAP. Did anyone see a TRCA staff person walking trails in the summer or fall pushing a baby stroller? Well that is one of the prototypes. Instead of taking all measurements by hand, this device has a computer sensor which detects grade and cross slope, is connected to a GPS and camera, and feeds its data right into a computer program. The person doing the assessment takes notice of trail surface changes, pinch points, obstacles of a certain height, and inputs them manually into the program.
    We are currently in the process of assessing the trails on our properties using this device, with the goal of making this information available to users as it is compiled. The idea is that simply having difficulty ratings for trails, and trails specifically for 'users with a disability' is not enough, and is not sufficient to let people decide what kind of trail they feel comfortable using. A sign could be posted listing the average grade, cross-slope, tread width and surface material.
    If anyone wants more information about the process, the device, or what TRCA is doing with it, let me know and I can elaborate further.
    TRCA
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    Email: [email protected]
    Web: http://www.trca.on.ca/
    Phone: (416) 661-6600

  66. #66
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    english please

    thank you,

    Quote Originally Posted by nogearshere
    have someone read it to you if necessary.

    "Will following these guidelines make a trail accessible to everyone?
    The answer to this question is an emphatic " NO ". It is absolutely impossible to make a trail that is accessible to everyone . There will always be some people who do not want to or cannot use a trail no matter how the trail is designed..."

  67. #67
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    Here's an especially interesting project given the original topic of your thread: Designing an Accessible Vehicle Barrier for Trails
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  68. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by nogearshere
    have someone read it to you if necessary."
    you missed the point... which was alot of this was mentioned before...


    on a seperate note,
    lets also review what is meant by "best practices" as this is key and i'm glad that it is being brought forward.

    "A best practice is a technique, method, process, activity, incentive, or reward which conventional wisdom regards as more effective at delivering a particular outcome than any other technique, method, process, etc. when applied to a particular condition or circumstance. The idea is that with proper processes, checks, and testing, a desired outcome can be delivered with fewer problems and unforeseen complications. Best practices can also be defined as the most efficient (least amount of effort) and effective (best results) way of accomplishing a task, based on repeatable procedures that have proven themselves over time for large numbers of people.

    A given best practice is only applicable to particular condition or circumstance and may have to be modified or adapted for similar circumstances. In addition, a "best" practice can evolve to become better as improvements are discovered." (i love wikipedia)

    it is fairly proven that including (though not necessarily implementing) full spectrum of trail opportunities to all members of the community within their local area is condsidered a "best practice". activily/purposely not doing so is a form of exclusion that leads to
    conflicts.
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  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by TRCA
    If anyone wants more information about the process, the device, or what TRCA is doing with it, let me know and I can elaborate further.
    aha, now i know where i saw something sorta like this...

    http://www.3dlasermapping.com/index....tpage&Itemid=1
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  70. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket
    aha, now i know where i saw something sorta like this...

    http://www.3dlasermapping.com/index....tpage&Itemid=1
    I wish the HETAP were that sophisticated! That would be awesome! Kinda like the Google street view for trails, without the 3D factor. The camera on our 'stroller' is only a webcam type camera, and only takes still shots (and not great ones at that), but I think it georeferences them.
    The HETAP (as compared to the older UTAP) is still very much in its prototype stage, and this has benefits and drawbacks. We're having to deal with software hiccups and inefficiencies, but we are also able to provide necessary feedback to the company to improve it for everybody. As far as I know, other than a group in Alberta, we are the only group in Canada using the HETAP system.
    TRCA
    Toronto and Region Conservation Authority
    Email: [email protected]
    Web: http://www.trca.on.ca/
    Phone: (416) 661-6600

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket
    lets also review what is meant by "best practices" as this is key and i'm glad that it is being brought forward.
    I have to giggle a little every time I hear the term "best practices". It's so jargony now that people throw it around willy-nilly without understanding it. In my line of work it usually means "let's go see what Toyota is doing and copy that..." with total disregard for history, function and context.
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  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by TRCA
    I wish the HETAP were that sophisticated! That would be awesome! Kinda like the Google street view for trails, without the 3D factor. The camera on our 'stroller' is only a webcam type camera, and only takes still shots (and not great ones at that), but I think it georeferences them.
    The HETAP (as compared to the older UTAP) is still very much in its prototype stage, and this has benefits and drawbacks. We're having to deal with software hiccups and inefficiencies, but we are also able to provide necessary feedback to the company to improve it for everybody. As far as I know, other than a group in Alberta, we are the only group in Canada using the HETAP system.
    surface/enviroment recognition is a common issue in industry. currently i'm developing an automated system that is vision based for my process. i've found this company useful
    http://www.cognex.com/ProductsServic...ult.aspx?id=46
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  73. #73
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    We use Cognex for some of our vision systems too but I would imagine TRCA would want something a little more plug-and-play for their needs.
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  74. #74
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  75. #75
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    That was awesome! One wonders how that guy ended up in a wheelchair in the first place...

    EDIT: Aha, spina bifida. Love that Wiki!
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  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by TRCA
    There has been significant consultation done on this, apparently.This document is an interesting read> Trails for All Ontarians: Guidelines and Best Practices for the Design, Construction and Maintenance of Sustainable Trails for All Ontarians.
    http://www.abilitiescentre.org/trails/
    I mentioned that the final proposed built standards are awaiting approval from the Minister now? Well the first round of proposed standards was a little beefier, and was based very closely on this document.

    "Who was involved in developing these guidelines and best practices?
    These guidelines and best practices for Ontario trails were developed through a collaborative partnership of local, regional, and provincial disability and trail organizations. The Trails for All Ontarians Collaborative was an alliance of existing organizations that was created to complete the development and evaluation of these guidelines and best practices.
    The partners of the Trails for All Ontarians Collaborative were:
    * Abilities Centre
    * Active Living Alliance for Canadians with a Disability
    * Fitness Friends
    * Get Active Now - Active Living Resource Centre for Ontarians with a Disability
    * Go For Green
    * Haliburton Highlands Trails and Tours Network
    * Hike Ontario
    * Huronia Trails and Greenways
    * Kawartha Lakes Green Trails Alliance
    * Oak Ridges Trail Association
    * Ontario Trails Council
    * Township of Uxbridge
    * Trans Canada Trail Ontario
    * Variety Village
    * Wye Marsh Wildlife Centre
    The success of this project was further enhanced by the contributions received from dozens of individuals, conservation authorities, municipalities, disability organizations and the following supporting organizations:
    * Active Living Coalition for Older Adults
    * Central Ontario Loop Trail (COLT)
    * City of Toronto
    * Pathways to Health Committee
    * Quetico Provincial Park"


    "Will following these guidelines make a trail accessible to everyone?
    The answer to this question is an emphatic " NO ". It is absolutely impossible to make a trail that is accessible to everyone . There will always be some people who do not want to or cannot use a trail no matter how the trail is designed, constructed and maintained. For example, some people are allergic to sunlight and therefore could only use a trail that was safe to use in the middle of the night. Other people have fears of being outside, and would never choose to use an outdoor trail. There are also many trails that are intimidating to a wide range of potential users (e.g., women, older adults) because there is a strong perception of the trail being unsafe or that trail users may be unacceptably vulnerable to harm.
    It must also be recognized that the needs of different trail users often conflict . By creating a trail that is designed to meet the needs of one group of trail users, the possibility for enjoyment of the trail by other potential users is decreased. For example, as stated earlier, it is a commonly held myth that trails must be paved in order to be accessible to people who use mobility devices, such as wheelchairs or scooters. Even if a trail is paved because of such "good intentions", a paved surface automatically makes the trail less appropriate for people who prefer an unpaved surface (e.g., runners, equestrians, or people who walk with an artificial leg). Each characteristic of a trail will encourage some users and discourage others. The key to achieving "best practices" is to ensure that the full spectrum of trail opportunities is available to all members of the community within their local area."
    I wonder if there are any Government Grants for special trail construction? The Heights of Horseshoe would be a fantastic place to construct a trail that could withstand almost any weather and any user group. To the west of the clubhouse is an existing trail called “Greater Heights” with terrific exposure.

  77. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phat Tyred
    I wonder if there are any Government Grants for special trail construction? The Heights of Horseshoe would be a fantastic place to construct a trail that could withstand almost any weather and any user group. To the west of the clubhouse is an existing trail called “Greater Heights” with terrific exposure.
    I don't know about specific grants but you can always go after Trillium money if you're organized enough (i.e. a registered non-profit).
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  78. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster
    I don't know about specific grants but you can always go after Trillium money if you're organized enough (i.e. a registered non-profit).
    The Heights is private property, so I don't think that one will work. Maybe TRCA knows of another way?

  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket
    playground wheelchair access and wheelchair access for park trails. currently the product i make/invented is being used in systems for both. it is also being used in trails (private/public in ontario and elsewhere). a larger scale test will also occur this spring in a gta problem zone. the development of trail hardening systems has lagged over the years and alot of work needs to be done. mind you the issue is more then just trails, but also to build lower impact roads in the oilpatch or mining areas. though all trail users will benefit from the developing technologies.
    Have I got a deal for you brother ... but I do not want to let anyone know which is way I am sending this as a pm. I have some swamp land that I am partners with Donald Trump on and we want to fill it with singletrack. Also he says if you can make roadways in the oil patch look like a golf fairway we can do some big business buddy.

  80. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phat Tyred
    Have I got a deal for you brother ... but I do not want to let anyone know which is way I am sending this as a pm. I have some swamp land that I am partners with Donald Trump on and we want to fill it with singletrack. Also he says if you can make roadways in the oil patch look like a golf fairway we can do some big business buddy.
    actually there is more going on then just roads in the oil patch. contamination is a huge issue as you can see in this picture of the tailing ponds.



    bioremediation is an emerging solution that i'm advocating like this project i did to clean a drinking water reservoir...

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  81. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket
    actually there is more going on then just roads in the oil patch. contamination is a huge issue as you can see in this picture of the tailing ponds.



    bioremediation is an emerging solution that i'm advocating like this project i did to clean a drinking water reservoir...

    Ya.... that's what I thought you would say.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_TYM...eature=related

  82. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket
    actually there is more going on then just roads in the oil patch. contamination is a huge issue as you can see in this picture of the tailing ponds.



    bioremediation is an emerging solution that i'm advocating like this project i did to clean a drinking water reservoir...

    Those tar sand images are out of date(probably only a little bit!):


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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik
    Those tar sand images are out of date(probably only a little bit!):

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpilFPW5P1o

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phat Tyred
    The Heights is private property, so I don't think that one will work. Maybe TRCA knows of another way?
    BUMP

  85. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phat Tyred
    BUMP
    Today is not a stat day is it???

  86. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phat Tyred
    Today is not a stat day is it???
    This is just a thought off the top of my head but maybe it would be worth your while to start a whole new thread with a title like "New Trails At Heights of Horseshoe? Tell Me How!". Just sayin'...
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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster
    This is just a thought off the top of my head but maybe it would be worth your while to start a whole new thread with a title like "New Trails At Heights of Horseshoe? Tell Me How!". Just sayin'...
    I don't need trails at the heights... Racers do.
    just telling

  88. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phat Tyred
    I don't need trails at the heights... Racers do.
    just telling
    I'm gonna say this for the benefit of us (and I'm trying to be constructive here), can you please make just one post, stating clearly what it is you're looking for? If you don't want the MTB festival at Horseshoe, great. If you want a grant to build new trails, great. I'm just looking for some clarity.
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  89. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster
    I'm gonna say this for the benefit of us (and I'm trying to be constructive here), can you please make just one post, stating clearly what it is you're looking for? If you don't want the MTB festival at Horseshoe, great. If you want a grant to build new trails, great. I'm just looking for some clarity.
    I want the people who need it and are going to charge for it to also build it
    .but for clarity what do you think was going on with
    eleclectic
    SS
    endura
    and all the rest of the puppets???

  90. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phat Tyred
    I want the people who need it and are going to charge for it to also build it
    .but for clarity what do you think was going on with
    eleclectic
    SS
    endura
    and all the rest of the puppets???
    Taking a page from the Hard Rock handbook, LOVE ALL - SERVE ALL!

    As far as I can tell, our biggest problem is not lack of builders but lack of legitimate places to build. If you have access to some land and you believe people should build before they ride/race, announce a build day. That would be awesome!
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  91. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster
    Taking a page from the Hard Rock handbook, LOVE ALL - SERVE ALL!

    As far as I can tell, our biggest problem is not lack of builders but lack of legitimate places to build. If you have access to some land and you believe people should build before they ride/race, announce a build day. That would be awesome!
    back at you racer
    the valley has none

  92. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phat Tyred
    back at you racer
    the valley has none
    All in good time. Plans need approving before rakes hit the needles!

    EDIT: Actually this seems as good a time as any to mention that the Hilton trail maintenance day is the last Saturday in March (I think). If someone could back that up with a link, it would be greatly appreciated.
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  93. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster
    All in good time. Plans need approving before rakes hit the needles!
    I guess they had better be.
    Don't put the cart before the horse or theracers before the proper trail.

  94. #94
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    New question here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phat Tyred
    I want the people who need it and are going to charge for it to also build it
    .but for clarity what do you think was going on with
    eleclectic
    SS
    endura
    and all the rest of the puppets???
    now i want to know what the logic is behind the puppet comment
    broadcasting from
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    build trail!

  95. #95
    No. Just No.
    Reputation: Circlip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket
    now i want to know what the logic is behind the puppet comment
    To be fair, Phat should have included his own handle in the list.

    Dance puppets! Dance!

  96. #96
    Evil Jr.
    Reputation: garage monster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip
    Dance puppets! Dance!
    Thank goodness we still have the Metallica back-catalogue left at our disposal!

    <iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/WEL6_SuQCu8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
    Please enjoy seeing this terrible collection of me - something wonderful is about to happy.

  97. #97
    Team NFI
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket
    now i want to know what the logic is behind the puppet comment

    It seems like his view is that we being controlled by the evil OCA Imperium. That we by not buying his views hook line and sinker are Infidels who must be cleansed from the Earth. Basically the same sheitalo he has been spewing for approaching 3 seasosns.

    I said it earlier but I will say it again. All this railing so hard reminds me of those politicians who rant so hard against stuff. They all are hiding something... like the guy ranting endlessly against promiscuity and you find out he was doing that very thing he was against.

  98. #98
    No. Just No.
    Reputation: Circlip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil
    It seems like his view is that we being controlled by the evil OCA Imperium.
    That's what the puppet master wants you to think. The truth is that under the guise of multiple user accounts, this forum has been compromised by Mike Vandeman and his minions, who have sown the seeds of dissension and conflict, so that now we only fight amongst ourselves instead of standing united against the greater evil. SS, Phat, etc. are unwittingly waging Vandeman's war for him, like so many mindless thralls gyrating at the voice of their master.

  99. #99
    Evil Jr.
    Reputation: garage monster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip
    That's what the puppet master wants you to think. The truth is that under the guise of multiple user accounts, this forum has been compromised by Mike Vandeman and his minions, who have sown the seeds of dissension and conflict, so that now we only fight amongst ourselves instead of standing united against the greater evil. SS, Phat, etc. are unwittingly waging Vandeman's war for him, like so many mindless thralls gyrating at the voice of their master.
    Hey you, stay away from the curtain!

    Please enjoy seeing this terrible collection of me - something wonderful is about to happy.

  100. #100
    No. Just No.
    Reputation: Circlip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster
    Hey you, stay away from the curtain!
    That's weird, there an unmarked black helicopter that has been circling near both my home and office recently. Probably just some kids playing with their family 'copter during recess, right?

  101. #101
    Team NFI
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    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip
    That's weird, there an unmarked black helicopter that has been circling near both my home and office recently. Probably just some kids playing with their family 'copter during recess, right?
    Nothing to be concerened about. The men in the black Suburbans are on their way.

  102. #102
    No. Just No.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil
    Nothing to be concerened about. The men in the black Suburbans are on their way.
    What would be a really freaky coincidence is if the kids in the black 'copter knew the men in the black Suburbans.

    Message from facebook;

    "Kids in black 'copter, you have received a friend request from men in black Surburban. Click here now to confirm friend request."

  103. #103
    humber river advocate
    Reputation: singlesprocket's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip
    That's what the puppet master wants you to think. The truth is that under the guise of multiple user accounts, this forum has been compromised by Mike Vandeman and his minions, who have sown the seeds of dissension and conflict, so that now we only fight amongst ourselves instead of standing united against the greater evil. SS, Phat, etc. are unwittingly waging Vandeman's war for him, like so many mindless thralls gyrating at the voice of their master.
    pot calling the kettle black hmmmmm...
    broadcasting from
    "the vinyl basement"

    build trail!

  104. #104
    namagomi
    Reputation: electrik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil
    Nothing to be concerened about. The men in the black Suburbans are on their way.
    Come on, they drive minivans now... geeze. Gasoline became expensive!



    You can always ask what's his name, Bryan, that is, if he is ever released again.

  105. #105
    banned
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket
    pot calling the kettle black hmmmmm...
    http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=669586
    Don't change your "enough" rkj , i have it book marked.

  106. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phat Tyred
    http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=669586
    Don't change your "enough" rkj , i have it book marked.
    Bump

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