Albion - Pinecomb Express- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    Albion - Pinecomb Express

    Some idiot dragged numerous trees into the second half of Pinecone today causing a crash hazard. Other areas had lots of sticks/branches in the apex of some of the turns. I moved them but they may return.

    And a BIG Thanks to the fella who helped me out with my rear shifter problem today and spoke guard. I was having a miserable ride til you showed up!

    EDIT: Sorry, couldn't stand the wrong title anymore. Pinecomb, not Pinecone

  2. #2
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    Some poor hiker is going to get drop kicked!


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    Pinecone Express was the scene of a bad start to my day when my buddy snapped a chain coming up one of the first hills: .
    First repair lasted only about ten minutes so we huffed it out and into town for a new one , delaying the start to what was eventually a great day of riding

  4. #4
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    we were there the night before and everything was in good shape
    even that 1st large rock over where someone had been trying to make a straight line through on the left we had covered up over a week ago and was still covered up.

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    I find it really funny that the sign actually calls it Pinecomb Express.

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    Quote Originally Posted by trailtrash View Post
    we were there the night before and everything was in good shape
    even that 1st large rock over where someone had been trying to make a straight line through on the left we had covered up over a week ago and was still covered up.
    Man, you guys really stuffed a ton of junk in there! It's ugly but it seems to be doing the job.
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    Quote Originally Posted by trailtrash View Post
    we were there the night before and everything was in good shape
    even that 1st large rock over where someone had been trying to make a straight line through on the left we had covered up over a week ago and was still covered up.
    If you're talking about that large rock ride-over, I noticed yesterday night that although the left side was blocked, some racers right in front of me went around on the right side now, and the path seemed to be pretty worked in

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    Another place to watch - not Pinecomb Express, but...

    On Sunday, on the higher trail that runs under the trees in front of the chalet a big piece of wire fence was pulled across the trail which I nearly ran into (not visible in the shade - plus I was riding with a friend and talking to her). It would have totally sent me OTB..not to mention all the bonus rusty wire wounds...

    I pulled it back into the woods but just in case it gets pulled back out - watch out!

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    Quote Originally Posted by ccaddy View Post
    Pinecone Express was the scene of a bad start to my day when my buddy snapped a chain coming up one of the first hills: .
    First repair lasted only about ten minutes so we huffed it out and into town for a new one , delaying the start to what was eventually a great day of riding
    Where did you take it??

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arek View Post
    If you're talking about that large rock ride-over, I noticed yesterday night that although the left side was blocked, some racers right in front of me went around on the right side now, and the path seemed to be pretty worked in
    we'll do some work on the right side next time

  11. #11
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    We ended up at Welcome to Walk Run Ride.
    Good people and they even found and issue with the B screw
    while doing a quick r.derailer adjustment after fitting the chain .


    *Excuse the jumpyness of the video . The mount was nice and snug but the Cam moved
    around a bit in it . First time using this set up

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by trailtrash View Post
    we were there the night before and everything was in good shape
    even that 1st large rock over where someone had been trying to make a straight line through on the left we had covered up over a week ago and was still covered up.
    If these oh so fast racers spent half the energy & time to actually learn to ride over obsticals rather than make cheater paths then maybe they can have a little pride in their ride !!!

  13. #13
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    If these oh so fast racers spent half the time & energy to actually learn to ride over an obstical rather than mak a cheater path , then just maybe they can take some pride in their ride !!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crash&bern View Post
    If these oh so fast racers spent half the time & energy to actually learn to ride over an obstical rather than mak a cheater path , then just maybe they can take some pride in their ride !!!
    Nice blanket statement that is. I highly doubt any of the racers are the ones moving this stuff as that is ridiculous. Me being one of them, I will take the shortest path always if it's the more technical choice. And I know many of my racing mates on the forum here are the same. Perhaps you should come out to a race and see what we folk are able to ride. It's likely some beginners that don't like the lack of a bail out option, which in some cases is fair as there is no point in scaring these folks away from the sport.
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    He said "oh so fast" racers. Doesn't apply to us. We are not that fast. Must be Kabush or Absalon, when secretly training at our kiddie pool. Damn skinny sausage suits...

    But he watched at Kelso.... He knows...

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbmeister View Post
    I will take the shortest path always if it's the more technical choice. And I know many of my racing mates on the forum here are the same. .
    I've seen you take the longer line in the past just so you could hit the tech feature.
    thats what its all about

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crash&bern View Post
    If these oh so fast racers spent half the time & energy to actually learn to ride over an obstical rather than mak a cheater path , then just maybe they can take some pride in their ride !!!
    Looks like we have a Troll.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbmeister View Post
    It's likely some beginners that don't like the lack of a bail out option, which in some cases is fair as there is no point in scaring these folks away from the sport.
    Speaking as someone in my second season of mountain biking, I wish someone had told me that if a bit of trail seemed difficult or dangerous, I could simply mow vegetation down to ride around it instead of slowing down and/or walking my bike. I assumed, wrongly, that as a newcomer I was the person least qualified to change the trails.

    Coming from a climbing background, I had no idea that dumbing trails down for beginners to make the sport popular is part of the mountain biking ethos. In climbing, it's a big no-no to chip holds to make a route easier: beginners start with easier routes and work their way up as they get stronger and better. The idea of "cheater lines" so beginners could climb anything is new to me, and the idea that anyone can simply decide to create one wherever they please... what a revelation!

    :-o <= Yes, that is my troll-face emoticon

    Back to albion's trails, we rode through the Thunderstorm last night. I noticed lots of tyre tracks going around the various rollers and small table tops, I suspect cheater lines are going to develop there as well if barriers are not put in place.

    Le sigh.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crash&bern View Post
    If these oh so fast racers spent half the time & energy to actually learn to ride over an obstical rather than mak a cheater path , then just maybe they can take some pride in their ride !!!
    Quote Originally Posted by mtbmeister View Post
    Nice blanket statement that is. I highly doubt any of the racers are the ones moving this stuff as that is ridiculous. Me being one of them, I will take the shortest path always if it's the more technical choice. And I know many of my racing mates on the forum here are the same. Perhaps you should come out to a race and see what we folk are able to ride. It's likely some beginners that don't like the lack of a bail out option, which in some cases is fair as there is no point in scaring these folks away from the sport.
    No blanket statement meant as I know.many racers who are tehcnical riders.
    But you have to admit ,trails and race courses are getting dumbed down in favour of speed. Being a all round skilled rider should give you an advantage over somebody who is just fast on the fire trails.
    As for beginners , they should make their skills match the trail ,
    Not the trails match their skills !!
    Being challenged is what this sport is all about !!!

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crash&bern View Post
    But you have to admit ,trails and race courses are getting dumbed down in favour of speed. Being a all round skilled rider should give you an advantage over somebody who is just fast on the fire trails.
    Mass-start racing has certain unique problems. One of them is that any section of the course that slows riders down creates a bottleneck, which has very unfortunate consequences for skilled and fast riders caught behind a traffic jam. In Cyclocross, barriers created this problem, such that many races were decided at the first barrier: If you weren’t amongst the leaders, you would be so bogged down by the traffic that you would never catch up. Singletrack of any description also creates a no-passing zone, which allows riders to rest in front and push when they reach doubletrack.

    The result can be races that are boring for riders and spectators alike because of the lack of drama. UCI Cyclocross has attempted to remedy this by mandating that the course be three metres wide at all points and getting rid of many artificial barriers. Many riders hate the new fast courses as favoring fitness over skill.

    I am not endorsing this, just pointing out that where setting race courses is concerned, race directors may have motivations above and beyond mollycoddling unskilled riders.

    (My own ignorant suggestion is to create a few technical races that are run as time trials rather than as mass-start events. In a time trial, you can put a skinny over a sand pit without worrying whether other competitors will get bottlenecked.)

  21. #21
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    this can be debated to death

    and it all depends on the angle.

    I couldn't disagree more that the race courses are dumbed down for speed. Examples: Buckwallow O-Cup - West D'Nile section - could have been bypassed on the double track. It wasn't for the 1:30pm start. This section is one of the most technical sections at Buckwallow.
    Kelso O-Cup - multiple rocky technical sections were included, not excluded, in the race course - could have been bypassed as well.

    Can't wait to see Duntroon course - heard great comments about it.

    XC racing is about fitness and skill. Not just fitness, not just skill. Both. The mass start is addressed with the first 1-2km of the course - which is usually double track. Past that point - it is a fair game.

    Quote Originally Posted by raganwald View Post
    Mass-start racing has certain unique problems. One of them is that any section of the course that slows riders down creates a bottleneck, which has very unfortunate consequences for skilled and fast riders caught behind a traffic jam. In Cyclocross, barriers created this problem, such that many races were decided at the first barrier: If you weren’t amongst the leaders, you would be so bogged down by the traffic that you would never catch up. Singletrack of any description also creates a no-passing zone, which allows riders to rest in front and push when they reach doubletrack.

    The result can be races that are boring for riders and spectators alike because of the lack of drama. UCI Cyclocross has attempted to remedy this by mandating that the course be three metres wide at all points and getting rid of many artificial barriers. Many riders hate the new fast courses as favoring fitness over skill.
    Many riders like them as well. Racing circuit is a mixed bag. Some courses are like highways and some are pretty technical. Mt. Tremblant comes to mind - the one that Kabush won.

    I am not endorsing this, just pointing out that where setting race courses is concerned, race directors may have motivations above and beyond mollycoddling unskilled riders.
    Any empirical or rational explanation or hear-say to back this up?

    (My own ignorant suggestion is to create a few technical races that are run as time trials rather than as mass-start events. In a time trial, you can put a skinny over a sand pit without worrying whether other competitors will get bottlenecked.)
    But, is this XC then? We have so many disciplines on two wheels where it is all about skill, and very little about fitness. Is anyone crying about lack of fitness requirements for trials? XC is what XC is - primarily managing pain caused by lactic acid in the blood stream.

    There are so many trails around us that everyone can pick and choose where and what to ride. If Albion Hills is not enough challenging - Buckwallow is, or Bracebridge, or Porcupine RIdge, or Kolapore and some even say Kelso.

    On the other hand, if sausage suits all agree that they prefer doubletrack and hardpack without any obstacles taller than 2" for their racing - will this debate be over?

    It is like debating WRC car racing vs NASCAR.

    Fans of one can not believe that anyone can enjoy the other. Racing in circles for hours certainly does not look appealing or dramatic - but every race has attendance in 100,000 range...

    There is a perfect trail for everyone out there. Instead of complaining about those trails that we do not like - why not just ride those trails that we like and let others live?

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo View Post
    It is like debating WRC car racing vs NASCAR.
    Don't get me started...

    Did I mention that we got to ride in the Sebastien Loeb simulator at the Citroen Boutique on the Champs Elysees? 5-point harness and water spray when you went through the puddles. Worth every Euro-penny!
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    I said this:

    I am not endorsing this, just pointing out that where setting race courses is concerned, race directors may have motivations above and beyond mollycoddling unskilled riders.
    To explain that if some race course seems untechnical, it may be so for reasons other than appealing to less skilled riders.

    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo View Post
    Any empirical or rational explanation or hear-say to back this up?
    I’m confused. You seem to be disputing my comment. Are you suggesting that race directors ONLY set course to mollycoddle unskilled riders? The rest of your comment suggests that some courses are quite technical, which actually supports the point I made. For example, you said that XC racing is primarily about managing lactic acid. A race director who optimizes a course for this purpose is clearly creating a course for a reason other than mollycoddling unskilled riders, no?

    I wonder if we are in violent agreement??

    Also, I don’t know to whom you are directing a comment about complaints, but I am not complaining about anything other than possibly expressing some conservationist views with respect to ad hoc widening of trails to ride around rollers. If someone were to say that a race director or trail steward created a ride-around, I would have nothing to say about the matter. I enjoyed riding Albion last night, just as I enjoyed riding Porcupine Ridge. Albion has ride-arounds, I can use them or not as I see fit. What’s to complain about?

    And speaking in perfect humility, I was unable to manual the backsides of the rollers at Albion, and also I was rolling at lot of the rock ddrop-offs instead of wheelie-dropping and hucking off them, so as far as I’m concerned, my technical skills are not up to Albion’s technical features.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by raganwald View Post
    I said this:



    To explain that if some race course seems untechnical, it may be so for reasons other than appealing to less skilled riders.



    I wonder if we are in violent agreement??
    Sorry Reg. Misread your statement.

    I Thought you were implying that race directors dumb down race courses only to appease unskilled riders.

    Thanks for the clarification. We are in agreement.

    With regards to "complaining" it was not directed at you specifically. Just in general.

    What is "violent agreement"?
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    It's getting beyond just picking the type of trail you like to ride or picking the type of race you want to race because there should be a choice for all levels of riders.
    My issue is people who are altering the trails to suit their riding skills
    Alot of fun trails are having rocks & trees removed,cheater paths made ,
    Root sections filled in. People work hard to build these trails. It's nobody's right to change them if they don't like them or can't ride them

  26. #26
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    then we agree... I feel the same about

    those that are altering trails to match their riding skills.

    However, I also "understand" "them". They are looking at us thinking "who the hell they think they are"... This is my trail as much as it is theirs... etc...

    Chicken or egg?

    The collective consciousness of the MTB community is generally at a very good level when it comes to trails ethics and respect. There will always be a few bad apples that will do things for which either the whole community will be blamed or the majority of the community will dislike...

    Much like with everything else in life.

    Not much one can do about it, except what trailtrash and few others are doing (thank you). Fixing the damage...

    Quote Originally Posted by Crash&bern View Post
    It's getting beyond just picking the type of trail you like to ride or picking the type of race you want to race because there should be a choice for all levels of riders.
    My issue is people who are altering the trails to suit their riding skills
    Alot of fun trails are having rocks & trees removed,cheater paths made ,
    Root sections filled in. People work hard to build these trails. It's nobody's right to change them if they don't like them or can't ride them

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo View Post
    Not much one can do about it, except what trailtrash and few others are doing (thank you). Fixing the damage...
    Education helps too. Even by discussing it here, we might be enlightening new riders.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crash&bern View Post
    If these oh so fast racers spent half the time & energy to actually learn to ride over an obstical rather than mak a cheater path , then just maybe they can take some pride in their ride !!!
    Quote Originally Posted by Crash&bern View Post
    It's getting beyond just picking the type of trail you like to ride or picking the type of race you want to race because there should be a choice for all levels of riders.
    My issue is people who are altering the trails to suit their riding skills
    Alot of fun trails are having rocks & trees removed,cheater paths made ,
    Root sections filled in. People work hard to build these trails. It's nobody's right to change them if they don't like them or can't ride them
    This second statement I think would properly explain what is happening, it is not fair or right to pigon hole racers into a non-technical smooth course only group. unless of course you would like to start another lengthy and tired debate.

    It is also hard to police and manage as some of this happens on land with no management.

    The other side of the argument may be that if more people are changing trails maybe more people are riding bikes on the trails, which is a good thing for everybody, more users means more support results in more trails with more diversity.
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  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crash&bern View Post
    People work hard to build these trails. It's nobody's right to change them if they don't like them or can't ride them
    As a trail builder, I admit, I'd be pretty pissed if I found people had been altering the tread without consulting anyone. Having said that, if the large majority of users would prefer a certain type of trail (especially if they come to a trail build day), it's the designer's role to accommodate that. Where it's tricky is in spots that it isn't clear who is responsible for the trails. Say you're a trail user and you either want a new feature or really want a ride-around, it can be quite difficult to figure out who to contact about it (notable exceptions include Hydrocut, Guelph Lake etc etc). Thus you get people acting on their own. As annoying and bureaucratic as clubs can be, at least they provide a semi-transparent approach to trails.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crash&bern View Post
    It's getting beyond just picking the type of trail you like to ride or picking the type of race you want to race because there should be a choice for all levels of riders.
    My issue is people who are altering the trails to suit their riding skills
    Alot of fun trails are having rocks & trees removed,cheater paths made ,
    Root sections filled in. People work hard to build these trails. It's nobody's right to change them if they don't like them or can't ride them
    the problem is also when the "whole" trail network gets changed and made less diverse. (that it is raced on is beside the point). then statements are made to go drive somewhere else (for 2 plus hours) if you want to ride different trails. like i said before, this mindset is contary to the diversity required by the "living city" and the conservation/green guidelines being developed. of course i would like to see a trail plan that incorporates this in a meaningful way for the entire community. i have shown patience (and endured ridicule)with regards to this, though it is something i will address with the humber watershed alliance committee that a set of standards be developed to address these issues.
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    Quote Originally Posted by raganwald View Post
    (My own ignorant suggestion is to create a few technical races that are run as time trials rather than as mass-start events. In a time trial, you can put a skinny over a sand pit without worrying whether other competitors will get bottlenecked.)

    I don't know if you were referring to this Mountain Bike Rally @ Mansfield Outdoor Centre | substance projects
    I kind of wish I wasn't going to visit my parents now the long weekend I would really like to join in this fun event.
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket View Post
    the problem is also when the "whole" trail network gets changed and made less diverse.
    I disagree with this statement.

    The trails at Albion were in need of renovation. Pinecomb Express is an example of where the TRCA wants to take future work and I would argue that it actually demonstrates the steps they are taking to make the trails MORE diverse. It includes many new features that have progressive lines over and around them.

    Whether or not you like the work they've done is up to you but to say that they aren't making an effort is a stretch at best.
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    Again,i'm not trying " pigeon hole" or judge racers, since I race as well.
    So it wouldn't make much sense now would it..?
    And I also actively am involved with introduce ing new riders to the sport.
    The topic here is saving trails and not dumbing down other people's hard work !
    You can't find the right trail for you? Go out and make your own!
    They call them cheater paths fo a reason

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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo View Post
    What is "violent agreement"?
    When two people are arguing, yet they actually agree with each other!

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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster View Post
    I disagree with this statement.

    The trails at Albion were in need of renovation. Pinecomb Express is an example of where the TRCA wants to take future work and I would argue that it actually demonstrates the steps they are taking to make the trails MORE diverse. It includes many new features that have progressive lines over and around them.

    Whether or not you like the work they've done is up to you but to say that they aren't making an effort is a stretch at best.
    then who is it up to? not the community that's for sure. what are the guide lines? what is the trail plan? how does it meet overall policy? these are all questions that need to be answered and a plan put in place with checks and balances. thus the need for committee members that champion mandates for all stakeholders.
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket View Post
    then who is it up to? not the community that's for sure. what are the guide lines? what is the trail plan? how does it meet overall policy? these are all questions that need to be answered and a plan put in place with checks and balances. thus the need for committee members that champion mandates for all stakeholders.
    Again we are back to the socialist approach of having all of these policies and stakeholders and plans that ensure all parties have a say...The plan comes down to the reality that what's most important to drive revenue there is understanding what's appealing to the largest amount of user base in the GTA that rides these trails. That generates revenue whether from day passes or race events. This allows for continual growth and development of the park in many areas, not necessarily ensuring that any particular small minority is happy...It just makes business sense likely, hence why it is the way it is there.
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    actually, let's leave socialist, stakeholders, checks and balances, pots and kettles aside for a moment...

    he is calling for a fair game, eh? very well.

    did he stand up at Blue Mountain for a huge group of stakeholders who were left out of the development, which focused only on DH group? (doubt it)

    did he stand up at Horsheshoe for the same group of stakeholders who were left out of the development over the last couple of years, which focused only on DH and FR? (doubt it)

    if he did - I'd have called it a fair game - lets do committees, stakeholders, socialism and maybe even communism - as long as we all benefit from it.

    but it is obvious that the name of the game here is hypocrisy, unfortunately.

    not a fair game.

    hence - it is doomed to fail. there will be a lot of talk, meetings, committees, virtual arguments, pots calling kettles etc... the end result will not be quantifiably different, unfortunately. or maybe fortunately.

    on a positive note, can't wait to hit that rock on my hard tail with slicks and not roll but huck the rock drop in High Roller...

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbmeister View Post
    Again we are back to the socialist approach of having all of these policies and stakeholders and plans that ensure all parties have a say...The plan comes down to the reality that what's most important to drive revenue there is understanding what's appealing to the largest amount of user base in the GTA that rides these trails. That generates revenue whether from day passes or race events. This allows for continual growth and development of the park in many areas, not necessarily ensuring that any particular small minority is happy...It just makes business sense likely, hence why it is the way it is there.
    Isn't that just an argument for a race to cater only to the lowest common skill denominator? What incentive is there for growth beyond revenue - Or is that not a consideration? It seems such an idea would write any park that embraced it out of existence that is since my accident they skill set might outgrow that park. Then one might end up with people complaining of the shallowness of the sport. If management aren't a bunch of marching morons, which remains to be seen, they should be offering brie in addition to cheeze whiz.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    Isn't that just an argument for a race to cater only to the lowest common skill denominator?
    who said that?

    btw - what is SKILL? is it just hucking, dabbing, catching 5' of air? or is it maybe AS WELL going through turns at high rate of speed and everything else that is characteristic for XC?

    why are you limiting the definition of skill only to TTF and alike elements?

    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    What incentive is there for growth beyond revenue - Or is that not a consideration?
    this is under assumption that the sport is not growing due to revenue oriented events and development. it may be completely wrong assumption and the facts may be quite opposite.

    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    It seems such an idea would write any park that embraced it out of existence that is, if riders aren't a bunch of marching morons, which remains to be seen.
    which stakeholders specifically you are calling "marching morons"? XC?

    not nice...

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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbmeister View Post
    Again we are back to the socialist approach of having all of these policies and stakeholders and plans that ensure all parties have a say...The plan comes down to the reality that what's most important to drive revenue there is understanding what's appealing to the largest amount of user base in the GTA that rides these trails. That generates revenue whether from day passes or race events. This allows for continual growth and development of the park in many areas, not necessarily ensuring that any particular small minority is happy...It just makes business sense likely, hence why it is the way it is there.
    under the current system revenue is dropping (read my past posts for stats and linked financial statements)... what's up with that? all projected growth has fallen short, we are in the red. yet the population grows. the current model does not benefit the community now or in the future, it is not sustainable. calling my statements "socialist approach" is a red herring and weaksauce...
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    It's all about business, seriously...

    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    Isn't that just an argument for a race to cater only to the lowest common skill denominator? What incentive is there for growth beyond revenue - Or is that not a consideration? It seems such an idea would write any park that embraced it out of existence that is since my accident they skill set might outgrow that park. Then one might end up with people complaining of the shallowness of the sport. If management aren't a bunch of marching morons, which remains to be seen, they should be offering brie in addition to cheeze whiz.
    Nope, and nope...Racing is a combination of many things. But let's be realistic about what this piece of property has to offer and what it's most suited for, cross country riding...

    Growth beyond revenue...Let's be realistic here...I would bet that a good number of these government funded parks or conservation areas make little to no revenue, and Albion is likely an exception to that on some levels based on the upgrades of various nature that have been put in there in the past few years, trails or otherwise.

    I struggle to understand what some folks here don't get. It's quite obvious that this venue serves certain customers well and caters to that group as that's where the cake they eat comes from.

    Yes, I am an XC racer, and very much like and enjoy the facility. At the same time, I am not whining and moaning about why there isn't 30+ kilometres of XC trails at Blue Mountain and why can't we have a committee with all stakeholders, meetings, and a trail plan that's visible for all to contribute to. It's much easier to just accept that certain venues are suitable for different riding styles and they will focus on what is best for their business...
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    riding is not only about features but also to enjoy nature, history, culture, community, stewardship, enviroment, art, diversity, etc
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket View Post
    riding is not only about features but also to enjoy nature, history, culture, community, stewardship, enviroment, art, diversity, etc
    So where is albion failing at this? They have built new trails with chico and with IMBA, they have some good climbs and some fun downhills. They have yet to put in some large featurs but as noted earlier they really don't have as much terain for that as say kelso or blue. There is times when you need to let the natural landscape dictate the trail.
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket View Post
    then who is it up to? not the community that's for sure. what are the guide lines? what is the trail plan? how does it meet overall policy? these are all questions that need to be answered and a plan put in place with checks and balances. thus the need for committee members that champion mandates for all stakeholders.
    Since you brought it up, I figured I'd mention this item from the 2010 TRCA Annual Report:

    Quote Originally Posted by TRCA.com
    TRCA Standards and Guidelines for Trails in Natural Areas - One meeting with partner trail groups and one Technical Advisory Committee meeting were held. Trail design guidelines were drafted, refinements for trail classification system were proposed, and accessible design requirements were reviewed.
    So with a little bit of Googling, I was able to find one report (which you can find here, trail stuff starts on page 92). It's not much, I'll admit but there does seem to be some action regarding trails under TRCA control. I'd say you'd want to get yourself in front of these people pronto!
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    sure it is. how does your point on this differ from mine?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jrastories View Post
    There is times when you need to let the natural landscape dictate the trail.
    so true... so what criteria is that natural landscape trial interpreted by? does it touch on all the criteria i've listed? where all stakeholders involved? what checks and balances are in place? and so on...
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    -i don't lie
    -i respect all stakeholders and listen to what they have to say
    -i have empathy
    -i treat the less fortunate with compassion
    -i care for the enviroment and put it in practice
    -i build trails everywhere i can
    -i am involved in my community
    -i treat all genders with respect
    -i keep an open mind

    i wish more people would have these ideals
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  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbmeister View Post
    Nope, and nope...Racing is a combination of many things. But let's be realistic about what this piece of property has to offer and what it's most suited for, cross country riding...

    Growth beyond revenue...Let's be realistic here...I would bet that a good number of these government funded parks or conservation areas make little to no revenue, and Albion is likely an exception to that on some levels based on the upgrades of various nature that have been put in there in the past few years, trails or otherwise.

    I struggle to understand what some folks here don't get. It's quite obvious that this venue serves certain customers well and caters to that group as that's where the cake they eat comes from.

    Yes, I am an XC racer, and very much like and enjoy the facility. At the same time, I am not whining and moaning about why there isn't 30+ kilometres of XC trails at Blue Mountain and why can't we have a committee with all stakeholders, meetings, and a trail plan that's visible for all to contribute to. It's much easier to just accept that certain venues are suitable for different riding styles and they will focus on what is best for their business...
    I don't dispute blue exists to serve the DH crowd, but that is the opposite end of the spectrum. Somebody in another thread mention pigeon holing and this is exactly where we've ended up by following those strict guidelines given to us by the accountants. If people are to be belived that XC racer aren't pigeons to be stuffed in finite holes, that those two customer the XC and DH aren't different people, why can't somebody in charge realize this and capitalize. This is an important detail lost in the stakeholder modeling which is probably the original source of such polarizing troubles. After all you must fabricate disparate categories in which to market lucrative niche products. Sure, I think it's easier for the business case to claim that certain venues are suitable only for different styles, but that is not something found in the real world... any trail can be a chameleon if enough creative effort is put in to avoid cookie cutter XC or DH image.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbmeister View Post
    Yes, I am an XC racer, and very much like and enjoy the facility. At the same time, I am not whining and moaning about why there isn't 30+ kilometres of XC trails at Blue Mountain and why can't we have a committee with all stakeholders, meetings, and a trail plan that's visible for all to contribute to. It's much easier to just accept that certain venues are suitable for different riding styles and they will focus on what is best for their business...

    Lets not forget, you're an amateur XC racer, anybody who races in the O cup is like an adult hockey league. You pay to join a race like an Adult Hockey League player pays to join the league, you pay to race just like anyone pays to use the trail system. Adults playing in a hockey league have no say on additions to the arena or how it's built, the people who spent the money to build it and run the place do, not the people who use it and pay admission.


    So you have no bigger say in anything, even though some racers think they are king of mountain biking. Not saying you are, just saying that calling yourself a Racer or Stakeholder is trying to elevate you to some sort of status of power when you should have none.

    To your point about conservation areas: A flat place like albion hills is never going to be the same level as Blue Mountain or Kelso. You can do all the trail building you want and add some features, it doesn't matter. it's not going to change anything. The earth and the geo graphical area dictate what riding is done, not people. You can build the trails there which is important but that's about it. Albion Hills is never going to be in the same caliber as Blue Mountain or Kelso. IMHO, ski resorts make the best mountain bike trails for everyone! As they are owned by people making money, which means they listen to the majority not just a small vocal group and they can tell people NO, which is important.

    Blue mountain is making more XC trails as we speak and Kelso is already a great place to ride that they improve every season. Ski resorts make most of their money from the Skiing and really the mountain biking in the off season is all gravy for them. That's why they are such great venues for Mountain bikers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Devinci luvr View Post
    Lets not forget, you're an amateur XC racer, anybody who races in the O cup is like an adult hockey league. You pay to join a race like an Adult Hockey League player pays to join the league, you pay to race just like anyone pays to use the trail system. Adults playing in a hockey league have no say on additions to the arena or how it's built, the people who spent the money to build it and run the place do, not the people who use it and pay admission.


    So you have no bigger say in anything, even though some racers think they are king of mountain biking. Not saying you are, just saying that calling yourself a Racer or Stakeholder is trying to elevate you to some sort of status of power when you should have none.

    To your point about conservation areas: A flat place like albion hills is never going to be the same level as Blue Mountain or Kelso. You can do all the trail building you want and add some features, it doesn't matter. it's not going to change anything. The earth and the geo graphical area dictate what riding is done, not people. You can build the trails there which is important but that's about it. Albion Hills is never going to be in the same caliber as Blue Mountain or Kelso. IMHO, ski resorts make the best mountain bike trails for everyone! As they are owned by people making money, which means they listen to the majority not just a small vocal group and they can tell people NO, which is important.

    Blue mountain is making more XC trails as we speak and Kelso is already a great place to ride that they improve every season. Ski resorts make most of their money from the Skiing and really the mountain biking in the off season is all gravy for them. That's why they are such great venues for Mountain bikers.
    Let's be clear...I never suggested that because I am a racer that I have a specific say in certain venues. I am simply suggesting that certain venues have specific appeal to specific genres of riders. And to compare adult hockey league to mountain bike racing is like comparing a grape to a pumpkin. Seriously, there would never be an issue with funding for adult hockey as there is not enough ice time as it is, and there aren't enough mtb venues close to everyone.

    Nor did I suggest that I have a say in how money gets spent at the venues that I enjoy riding at. However, I do remain confident that by focusing my own riding and racing passion at venues and events that support the XC community, I am giving back indirectly to the venues in creating new trails and upgrades at these facilities.

    Plain and simple, the notion of trying to get the ears of specific folks to change how certain venues are managed and maintained isn't feasible in most cases. Ski resorts may add XC trails and that's great, but you don't hear a bunch of us who think we are the "kings of mountain biking" as you've aptly put it whining and moaning about why we are able to have a say in their business plans.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devinci luvr View Post
    . IMHO, ski resorts make the best mountain bike trails for everyone! .
    That's just, like, your opinion, man.

    Which is fine, but what does any of this have to do with Vietnam? We were talking about a trail at Albion. You like it? Yes? No? You have some changes to suggest? Yes? No? You wanna go ride Blue instead? Go, go with my blessing, and may God grant you wings. But as you point out, Albion's terrain is what it is. Trying to compare it to Kelso or Blue is only relevant when we're choosing a venue for the weekend's rde or where to host a race.

    In the mean time, I'll be over here liking Albion just the way it is,. I have fun when I ride there and I haven't mastered it yet. Is there anything else a trail system needs to give me? If you need more, carry on, but is there any need to discuss ski resorts or skinnies or non-stop rockery or anything else Albion so-called "lacks" in a thread about Pinecomb Express?

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    Quote Originally Posted by raganwald View Post
    That's just, like, your opinion, man.

    Which is fine, but what does any of this have to do with Vietnam? We were talking about a trail at Albion. You like it? Yes? No? You have some changes to suggest? Yes? No? You wanna go ride Blue instead? Go, go with my blessing, and may God grant you wings. But as you point out, Albion's terrain is what it is. Trying to compare it to Kelso or Blue is only relevant when we're choosing a venue for the weekend's rde or where to host a race.

    In the mean time, I'll be over here liking Albion just the way it is,. I have fun when I ride there and I haven't mastered it yet. Is there anything else a trail system needs to give me? If you need more, carry on, but is there any need to discuss ski resorts or skinnies or non-stop rockery or anything else Albion so-called "lacks" in a thread about Pinecomb Express?
    Well said...And actually, I would have to say the Albion is much better a venue than Kelso...Okay, they have a DH course, but the trails up top are rather limited if you want to ride for more than an hour. Lame...
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbmeister View Post
    Ski resorts may add XC trails and that's great, but you don't hear a bunch of us who think we are the "kings of mountain biking" as you've aptly put it whining and moaning about why we are able to have a say in their business plans.
    Well that is the point, right? You couldn't whine to them because you wouldn't get very far. With Albion it seems there are too many cooks that spoil the stew and you get a sort of safe generic place to ride that people get upset with a few logs on the trail.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Devinci luvr View Post
    Well that is the point, right? You couldn't whine to them because you wouldn't get very far. With Albion it seems there are too many cooks that spoil the stew and you get a sort of safe generic place to ride that people get upset with a few logs on the trail.
    I have never heard or seen anyone complaining about logs on the trail or any of the simple technical features that are there. The whining is about why there isn't more of that stuff that would perhaps be over and above what the user base could handle, or wants. Adding things that don't fit the topography, etc...At least that's my impression.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbmeister View Post
    Well said...And actually, I would have to say the Albion is much better a venue than Kelso...Okay, they have a DH course, but the trails up top are rather limited if you want to ride for more than an hour. Lame...
    Kelso and Blue have the escarpment. You know, a big Ski hill that is fun going up and down. Not mentioning that is like saying Alpe d'Huez is flat and boring, you know if you don't ride the big mountain in front of you. ......lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbmeister View Post
    I have never heard or seen anyone complaining about logs on the trail
    Ahh...guy. Try reading the first post in this very thread. http://forums.mtbr.com/8352340-post1.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Devinci luvr View Post
    Kelso and Blue have the escarpment. You know, a big Ski hill that is fun going up and down. Not mentioning that is like saying Alpe d'Huez is flat and boring, you know if you don't ride the big mountain in front of you. ......lol
    Escarpment? Big deal...Please also don't put Kelso into Blue's class. Not a comparison there. Kelso's trail system is very limited if you want to avoid riding the same thing twice. Okay, there's a DH course...It's nothing special for a venue though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbmeister View Post
    Escarpment? Big deal...Please also don't put Kelso into Blue's class. Not a comparison there. Kelso's trail system is very limited if you want to avoid riding the same thing twice. Okay, there's a DH course...It's nothing special for a venue though.
    Yes, the escarpment. You know, one of the biggest natural land elevation changes in Ontario. As a mountain biker who would be interested in that eh? ...lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by Devinci luvr View Post
    Yes, the escarpment. You know, one of the biggest natural land elevation changes in Ontario. As a mountain biker who would be interested in that eh? ...lol
    Thanks for the news flash...It's not exciting to ride up a loose gravel "fire road" or have one option to come down on the opposite side. Going somewhere with multiple, somewhat shorter climbs, more singletrack, and twice as many trails is much more appealing.

    I can have more fun on my road bike than trying to get any thrills about one climb up or down the escarpment at Kelso...

    Over and out on this debate as it's sabotaging the thread...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devinci luvr View Post
    Well that is the point, right? You couldn't whine to them because you wouldn't get very far. With Albion it seems there are too many cooks that spoil the stew and you get a sort of safe generic place to ride that people get upset with a few logs on the trail.
    So in other words, it sounds like you are saying that catering to the needs of all stakeholders is far too cumbersome, at least at Albion. I can't say I disagree.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbmeister View Post
    Thanks for the news flash...It's not exciting to ride up a loose gravel "fire road" or have one option to come down on the opposite side. Going somewhere with multiple, somewhat shorter climbs, more singletrack, and twice as many trails is much more appealing.

    I can have more fun on my road bike than trying to get any thrills about one climb up or down the escarpment at Kelso...

    Over and out on this debate as it's sabotaging the thread...
    There are many ways to go up and down the escarpment that you simply can't experience anywhere else including Albion. such a pity you don't appreciate that, but then again this is why I am glad you don't have a say in the trails I ride and so glad places like Blue Mountain and Kelso don't have too many chefs

    There is a reason they call it mountain biking and not off road hard dirt packed cycling!

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    you forget one very important thing, the rules and policy which govern a private business entity and one that has jurisdiction over 9 watersheds with a stated public mandate are not quite the same. the powers that the two entities hold is quite different.

    bringing to attention that a stated mandate or policy is not in sync with operations
    to a advisory committee and that a due deligence is required with actions... is actually a civic duty and part of the operational procedures of that entity. the board of directors will decide what actions and or recommendations are to be implemented.

    now how is this considered whining and moaning?


    Quote Originally Posted by mtbmeister View Post
    Let's be clear...I never suggested that because I am a racer that I have a specific say in certain venues. I am simply suggesting that certain venues have specific appeal to specific genres of riders. And to compare adult hockey league to mountain bike racing is like comparing a grape to a pumpkin. Seriously, there would never be an issue with funding for adult hockey as there is not enough ice time as it is, and there aren't enough mtb venues close to everyone.

    Nor did I suggest that I have a say in how money gets spent at the venues that I enjoy riding at. However, I do remain confident that by focusing my own riding and racing passion at venues and events that support the XC community, I am giving back indirectly to the venues in creating new trails and upgrades at these facilities.

    Plain and simple, the notion of trying to get the ears of specific folks to change how certain venues are managed and maintained isn't feasible in most cases. Ski resorts may add XC trails and that's great, but you don't hear a bunch of us who think we are the "kings of mountain biking" as you've aptly put it whining and moaning about why we are able to have a say in their business plans.
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    Hey guys, it's Friday !
    Shake hands , turn off your computer
    And get on your bike & ride
    Or race.
    On whatever trail that turns your crank !!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Devinci luvr View Post
    There are many ways to go up and down the escarpment that you simply can't experience anywhere else including Albion.
    Unless you keep riding up and down pretty much the same route again and again, there are nowhere near the elevation changes as a part of a continuous trail at Kelso as there are at Albion Hills. Once you're up top, Kelso trails are flatter than "flat" Albion trails. Not to mention ~1/3 in overall length.

    Quote Originally Posted by Devinci luvr View Post
    I am glad you don't have a say in the trails I ride and so glad places like Blue Mountain and Kelso don't have too many chefs
    That's so inclusive of you, it warms my heart.

    Btw, I thought you can use your other handle again?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crash&bern View Post
    It's getting beyond just picking the type of trail you like to ride or picking the type of race you want to race because there should be a choice for all levels of riders.
    My issue is people who are altering the trails to suit their riding skills
    Alot of fun trails are having rocks & trees removed,cheater paths made ,
    Root sections filled in. People work hard to build these trails. It's nobody's right to change them if they don't like them or can't ride them
    I agree. If you can't ride it then get off your bike and walk it and think about how you could ride it. I will never understand these people who think they own the trail and if they don't like something they just remove it because they don't have the skills yet. That should not be happening.

    Cheater trails are funny though, a lot of them are around puddles as well. I admit I use them the odd time when I am tired and lazy just don't want to be bothered, but that's the kind of stuff trail builders do have control over and can prevent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket View Post
    you forget one very important thing, the rules and policy which govern a private business entity and one that has jurisdiction over 9 watersheds with a stated public mandate are not quite the same. the powers that the two entities hold is quite different.

    bringing to attention that a stated mandate or policy is not in sync with operations
    to a advisory committee and that a due deligence is required with actions... is actually a civic duty and part of the operational procedures of that entity. the board of directors will decide what actions and or recommendations are to be implemented.

    now how is this considered whining and moaning?
    Singlesprocket is correct. Albion is a public entity and there is a process for getting involved either by working from the bottom (Albion's Superintendent or equivalent) or from the top (the TRCA).

    They have all sorts of public meetings all the time on all sorts of topics and anyone is welcome to attend and have their say (best to be put in writing if possible) and they are bound to take your input under advisement (although they have the right to disagree with you - they're not concerned with straw-vote majorities).

    I don't know the TRCA's exact structure but beyond the sub-committee level, there's usually some sort of advisory board and ultimately the board of directors.

    So, in summary, if you don't like the way Albion is headed, there are avenues at your disposal BUT it takes a lot of leg work and in the end, you may still not get what you want.
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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster View Post
    So, in summary, if you don't like the way Albion is headed, there are avenues at your disposal BUT it takes a lot of leg work and in the end, you may still not get what you want.
    I think there's one question which needs to be asked: is it worth it? It obviously takes a ton of time & effort to get anything done at Albion, is it worth it to spend all that time & effort to make small incremental improvements there or is it better to direct that energy elsewhere and have a chance of making much larger advancements?

    For whatever reason, we seem to spend a disproportionate amount of time belly-aching about the Albion & Don trails, which incidentally are the ones we can do the least about. I'd bet there's a lot of other trail systems out there where we can get a much better return for our efforts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aerius View Post
    I think there's one question which needs to be asked: is it worth it? It obviously takes a ton of time & effort to get anything done at Albion, is it worth it to spend all that time & effort to make small incremental improvements there or is it better to direct that energy elsewhere and have a chance of making much larger advancements?

    For whatever reason, we seem to spend a disproportionate amount of time belly-aching about the Albion & Don trails, which incidentally are the ones we can do the least about. I'd bet there's a lot of other trail systems out there where we can get a much better return for our efforts.
    These are valid questions. If Albion is like most other Conservation Areas, they probably have a Master Plan, which, depending on its age, sets out what's going to happen at Albion over the next 5, 10 or 20 years.

    Since Albion is such a big CA with such a diverse user base, MTB trails probably comprise just a small section of the Mater Plan and it probably reads something along the lines of "Further development and reconstruction of MTB trails is planned."

    The trick is to get in front of the right people and let them know what you want. Albion doesn't build its own trails. Design and construction are contracted out so, if your vision is articulated in the tender document, you still have a shot.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devinci luvr View Post
    To your point about conservation areas: A flat place like albion hills is never going to be the same level as Blue Mountain or Kelso. You can do all the trail building you want and add some features, it doesn't matter. it's not going to change anything. The earth and the geo graphical area dictate what riding is done, not people. You can build the trails there which is important but that's about it. Albion Hills is never going to be in the same caliber as Blue Mountain or Kelso. IMHO, ski resorts make the best mountain bike trails for everyone! As they are owned by people making money, which means they listen to the majority not just a small vocal group and they can tell people NO, which is important.
    Seriously…I don't understand this. It seems like every day there is an ongoing argument about the trails at Albion. Its kind of contradictory… Albion is "flat", and well…you can't change the topography right? According to you it will never be at the caliber of Blue and Kelso. Still you complain because you don't like what Albion has to offer and target the rather large xc community who does. Why? Because there is some incomprehensible chance that there are trail users who enjoy different trails than you? Is a couple of log overs and a well crafted jump going to change things? Probably not (as you said). Ultimately: Don't like Albion? Honey badger don't give a shit—go ride somewhere else. It sounds like you have precisely described the exact uncontrollable geographic features that make the Albion trails what they are, and if those don't suit your preferred style of riding, complain to the god of geology or something.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fyrblade View Post
    Some idiot dragged numerous trees into the second half of Pinecone today causing a crash hazard. Other areas had lots of sticks/branches in the apex of some of the turns. I moved them but they may return.

    And a BIG Thanks to the fella who helped me out with my rear shifter problem today and spoke guard. I was having a miserable ride til you showed up!
    Anyone else notice that this thread started as a warning to other riders to be careful of trail sabotage and a shout-out to someone who offered trailside assistance. Too bad it has degenerated into the usual "I like to race"/"I like to ride TTF's" debate.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unglued View Post
    Anyone else notice that this thread started as a warning to other riders to be careful of trail sabotage and a shout-out to someone who offered trailside assistance. Too bad it has degenerated into the usual "I like to race"/"I like to ride TTF's" debate.
    I think this guy noticed:

    Quote Originally Posted by raganwald View Post
    what does any of this have to do with Vietnam? We were talking about a trail at Albion.... is there any need to discuss ski resorts or skinnies or non-stop rockery or anything else Albion so-called "lacks" in a thread about Pinecomb Express?

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    Quote Originally Posted by nspace View Post
    Seriously…I don't understand this. It seems like every day there is an ongoing argument about the trails at Albion. Its kind of contradictory… Albion is "flat", and well…you can't change the topography right? According to you it will never be at the caliber of Blue and Kelso. Still you complain because you don't like what Albion has to offer and target the rather large xc community who does. Why? Because there is some incomprehensible chance that there are trail users who enjoy different trails than you? Is a couple of log overs and a well crafted jump going to change things? Probably not (as you said). Ultimately: Don't like Albion? Honey badger don't give a shit—go ride somewhere else. It sounds like you have precisely described the exact uncontrollable geographic features that make the Albion trails what they are, and if those don't suit your preferred style of riding, complain to the god of geology or something.
    well put

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    Quote Originally Posted by Devinci luvr View Post
    There are many ways to go up and down the escarpment that you simply can't experience anywhere else including Albion. such a pity you don't appreciate that, but then again this is why I am glad you don't have a say in the trails I ride and so glad places like Blue Mountain and Kelso don't have too many chefs

    There is a reason they call it mountain biking and not off road hard dirt packed cycling!
    Going up and down the Escarpment, yippee, exciting stuff. I can find much more fun ways to go up and down on a mountain bike, or roadie for that matter. And if you are referening to Kelso, there are limited ways to go up and down it.

    As Arek has aptly pointed out, it's a pancake up top too, as well as as hardpacked as Albion or more save for the rocky bits.

    To suggest that I don't appreciate climbing, technical trails, or otherwise is made out of ignorance being we have referenced a couple of locations in Ontario. I have and do ride many technical areas that are accessible to us, not to mention partake in some extensive climbing on occasion that might involve doing repeats of the said escarpment or something equivalent in elevation.

    Suggesting that your glad that there aren't too many chiefs contaminating your destinations is ridiculous. Mainly because I, and likely many of us that like Albion, wouldn't make dopey suggestions about what to do with trail systems that are suited to certain riders just because we feel that all riders should have the opportunity to have their preference of trails at any given location. I'll just ride were I like to ride. Simple...
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbmeister View Post
    Going up and down the Escarpment.

    To suggest that I don't appreciate climbing, technical trails, or otherwise is made out of ignorance being we have referenced a couple of locations in Ontario. I have and do ride many technical areas that are accessible to us, not to mention partake in some extensive climbing on occasion that might involve doing repeats of the said escarpment or something equivalent in elevation.

    Suggesting that your glad that there aren't too many chiefs contaminating your destinations is ridiculous. Mainly because I, and likely many of us that like Albion, wouldn't make dopey suggestions about what to do with trail systems that are suited to certain riders just because we feel that all riders should have the opportunity to have their preference of trails at any given location. I'll just ride were I like to ride. Simple...
    I am referring to the escarpment, which Blue Mountain, Kelso and other trail systems/Ski Resorts are on and offer something for everyone. All the other assumptions you make and others who go of on tangents are just silly and not even going to bother responding because you're arguing with things that was never said and making straw man arguments.

    In case you were too busy being so sensitive about Albion Hills, the topic was that land owned by these ski resorts don't have to listen to anyone, and can do what they want, so change comes about fast and is not bogged down by too many chefs making the stew.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Devinci luvr View Post
    In case you were too busy being so sensitive about Albion Hills, the topic was that land owned by these ski resorts don't have to listen to anyone, and can do what they want, so change comes about fast and is not bogged down by too many chefs making the stew.
    Is a chef and a stakeholder the same thing?
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  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster View Post
    Is a chef and a stakeholder the same thing?
    If so, that would be "steakholder"...
    A bad day on the bike is better than a good day doing anything else...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Devinci luvr View Post
    land owned by these ski resorts don't have to listen to anyone, and can do what they want, so change comes about fast and is not bogged down by too many chefs making the stew.
    No doubt that the private land owners can make both (subjectively) good or bad decisions more quickly.

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    Wink

    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster View Post
    Is a chef and a stakeholder the same thing?
    A steakholder eats the food prepared by a chef. A stakeholder is a settler who has an interest in land thanks to staking their claim by pounding a stake into the ground. Either that, or they are a person out to fight the forces of evil by pounding a stake through a vampire’s heart. While useful for destroying vampires as they sleep, stakes have not been shown to be effective at eliminating trolls.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crash&bern View Post
    If these oh so fast racers spent half the energy & time to actually learn to ride over obsticals rather than make cheater paths then maybe they can have a little pride in their ride !!!
    Quote Originally Posted by Crash&bern View Post
    Hey guys, it's Friday !
    Shake hands , turn off your computer
    And get on your bike & ride
    Or race.
    On whatever trail that turns your crank !!
    Pretty hypocritical given that you are the one that got everyone so riled up in the first place.
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    Never mind!
    Last edited by raganwald; 08-26-2011 at 10:00 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bbshanks View Post
    You know, you sound foolish when you don't even know what stakeholder means, let me help you:
    lmgtfy.com/?q=Stakeholder

    you are NOT stakeholders, you are just trying to elevate yourself to that status. If anything Chico racing would be a stakeholder, but you people that are just racing teams or cycling clubs are just customers paying admission.
    Alright, have it your way. So what's a chef?
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    self-censored
    Last edited by raganwald; 08-27-2011 at 03:47 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bbshanks View Post
    You know, you sound foolish when you don't even know what stakeholder means, let me help you:
    lmgtfy.com/?q=Stakeholder

    you are NOT stakeholders, you are just trying to elevate yourself to that status. If anything Chico racing would be a stakeholder, but you people that are just racing teams or cycling clubs are just customers paying admission.
    Nah, we are just Albiontards, but apparently we DO have t-shirts
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unglued View Post
    Nah, we are just Albiontards, but apparently we DO have t-shirts
    That's "Albiotards" please. C'mon, at least you could get that right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Unglued View Post
    Pretty hypocritical given that you are the one that got everyone so riled up in the first place.
    If I got everyone riled up about the topic about people dumbing down trails that trail builders worked hard to make , good , that was my intention.
    This is a forum isn't it.
    A sharing of opinions ?
    It's starting to get off topic abit & a little heated
    ( like the hypocrite comment )
    So do I think people should cool down a little & go for a ride ??
    Yep !!!!
    That's my opinion !!
    Is that allowed ?

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    Although BrokenAnimator hasn't made an appearance in a while, and Devinci Luvr seems to have stepped out for a late lunch, at least Bbshanks decided to keep us entertained.

    And somehow... I have this feeling that all of them are still present anyway!.. Weird.

  87. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arek View Post
    And somehow... I have this feeling that all of them are still present anyway!.. Weird.
    AFAIK Broken Animator's time out would have ended at the same time as the others. I see no reason why the user wouldn't post under their own name again. It's not as if B-A was shy about mixing it up before, and I don't see why that would have changed.

    Here's my "fantasy" take : while I won't call sock puppet, I wouldn't be surprised in the least if some our these new contributors know each other IRL. Nothing wrong with that, since other members know each other IRL also and likely have a bit of convo from time to time that influences their posts here.

    On the topic of sock puppets, my vote for best Eastern Canada sock puppet of all time was the one-and-out poster (and writer?) of the legendary "Ode to Phat" from a couple of years ago, which did not last very long before the entire thread was nuked. If anyone has a copy of Ode to Phat that they just happened to take a copy of before it was canned, please PM me! I won't post up because it was a glaring encroachment on forum guidelines, but I'd like to have a nostalgic chuckle with a private read again. The wordcraft was of a level that IMHO deserved immunity from the guidelines. If I were Phat (hope you're enjoying your trails out there somewhere Tom) I would have appreciated that someone went to that level of effort with respect to me.

  88. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by nspace View Post
    Seriously…I don't understand this. It seems like every day there is an ongoing argument about the trails at Albion. Its kind of contradictory… Albion is "flat", and well…you can't change the topography right? According to you it will never be at the caliber of Blue and Kelso. Still you complain because you don't like what Albion has to offer and target the rather large xc community who does. Why? Because there is some incomprehensible chance that there are trail users who enjoy different trails than you? Is a couple of log overs and a well crafted jump going to change things? Probably not (as you said). Ultimately: Don't like Albion? Honey badger don't give a shit—go ride somewhere else. It sounds like you have precisely described the exact uncontrollable geographic features that make the Albion trails what they are, and if those don't suit your preferred style of riding, complain to the god of geology or something.
    Wow, tough talk nspace.

    It might surprise you to learn that Albion was not always laid out the way it is today. People seem to lack imagination of what one can do with a so called "flat" trail and that is disappointing. Such pigeon holed model thinking is symptomatic of the current trail maintenance and revenue brigade materializing their cookie cutter business philosophy allover our trails. I suggest you try to spice up your trail palate instead of risking ending up the sort of guy who thinks "donut rides" are the only way to enjoy riding and that the east coast has no terrain so we should all move to the west coast.

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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    Wow, tough talk nspace.

    It might surprise you to learn that Albion was not always laid out the way it is today. People seem to lack imagination of what one can do with a so called "flat" trail and that is disappointing. Such pigeon holed model thinking is symptomatic of the current trail maintenance and revenue brigade materializing their cookie cutter business philosophy allover our trails. I suggest you try to spice up your trail palate instead of risking ending up the sort of guy who thinks "donut rides" are the only way to enjoy riding and that the east coast has no terrain so we should all move to the west coast.
    So what did you do to change the way the trails are built and to change the cookie cutter approach to building trails?

    Except complain, that is.

    What is the solution?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip View Post
    On the topic of sock puppets, my vote for best Eastern Canada sock puppet of all time was the one-and-out poster (and writer?) of the legendary "Ode to Phat" from a couple of years ago, which did not last very long before the entire thread was nuked. If anyone has a copy of Ode to Phat that they just happened to take a copy of before it was canned, please PM me! I won't post up because it was a glaring encroachment on forum guidelines, but I'd like to have a nostalgic chuckle with a private read again. The wordcraft was of a level that IMHO deserved immunity from the guidelines. If I were Phat (hope you're enjoying your trails out there somewhere Tom) I would have appreciated that someone went to that level of effort with respect to me.
    No doubt that was a good one but to my mind, the most memorable sock puppets we've had were the two members who built new accounts to tell us anonymously that their marriages were falling apart. That was EPIC.
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  91. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo View Post
    So what did you do to change the way the trails are built and to change the cookie cutter approach to building trails?

    Except complain, that is.

    What is the solution?
    The solution is stop turning everything into a one trick pony that you can ride backwards with your eyes closed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    Wow, tough talk nspace.

    It might surprise you to learn that Albion was not always laid out the way it is today. People seem to lack imagination of what one can do with a so called "flat" trail and that is disappointing. Such pigeon holed model thinking is symptomatic of the current trail maintenance and revenue brigade materializing their cookie cutter business philosophy allover our trails. I suggest you try to spice up your trail palate instead of risking ending up the sort of guy who thinks "donut rides" are the only way to enjoy riding and that the east coast has no terrain so we should all move to the west coast.
    Read the post I was responding to! I was paraphrasing the conclusions that Devinci_luvr came to. I don't think Albion is flat, hence the quotations. Albion has lots of elevation, its one of the things I love about Albion, and one of the things that makes it challenging and fun. Unlike a place like Kelso, there is lots of elevation mixed into the singletrack, where as Kelso is pretty flat up top. I don't think Albion's possibilities are at all limited. My point was simply that Devinci is complaining about the quality of trail at Albion, and that it doesn't appeal to a wider demographic of mountain bikers because it lacks technical features etc.., yet he has shot himself in the foot by coming to the conclusion that its a lost cause due to what is essentially the natural geology of the place. If that's the case, well you can't change that (unless you have a shitload of Caterpillars are your disposal), so why bother riding there and criticizing those who do. Next time read the post.

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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster View Post
    No doubt that was a good one but to my mind, the most memorable sock puppets we've had were the two members who built new accounts to tell us anonymously that their marriages were falling apart. That was EPIC.
    You may have a point there.

    Here's a shout out to all of our past sock puppet frenz. Happy trails! (and marriages )

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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    I read your post, honey badger.
    That is precisely the problem. You only read my post. It's easy to misunderstand that I made no such claims that the only possibility for Albion is tame smooth trails when you read it out of context.

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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    The solution is stop turning everything into a one trick pony that you can ride backwards with your eyes closed.
    I dunno, I kind of like trails that can be ridden in both directions. Admittedly, I'm not very good at riding with my eyes closed though (either direction). Or, if you mean actually riding backwards via fixie, that would require skillz I do not have.

  96. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip View Post
    I dunno, I kind of like trails that can be ridden in both directions. Admittedly, I'm not very good at riding with my eyes closed though (either direction)....
    Maybe if you had more discerning taste you could have a ride that you don't need to close your eyes for and travel both ways through to get satisfaction.

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    I'm not making any false arguments up. Did you not say this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Devinci luvr View Post
    A flat place like albion hills is never going to be the same level as Blue Mountain or Kelso. You can do all the trail building you want and add some features, it doesn't matter. it's not going to change anything. The earth and the geo graphical area dictate what riding is done, not people. You can build the trails there which is important but that's about it. Albion Hills is never going to be in the same caliber as Blue Mountain or Kelso.
    Correct me if I am understanding you wrong. You are saying that it doesn't matter what features/trails you build there, its not going to appeal to your style of riding simply due to the geographical features of Albion (read: a lack of elevation). So its not for you...why the hating?

    I am not debating you about the profitability of a ski hill close to Toronto, or arguing with you from the perspective of a downhill course, that Blue Mountain is higher in terms of elevation. My point is that Albion has lots of elevation MIXED INTO THE SINGLETRACK and despite not being situated on the escarpment it has a lot of more elevation gain if you link up its network of trails, than a place like Kelso (unless you want to count hill repeats up the fireroad), where the majority of their XC trails are located at the top of the escarpment, where elevation is comparatively flat.

    Stop insinuating that certain xc trails are lesser because they are not downhill-friendly mountain biking destinations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    Maybe if you had more discerning taste you could have a ride that you don't need to close your eyes for and travel both ways through to get satisfaction.
    I like a lot of different types of trails. Keeps things interesting for me.

  99. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by nspace View Post
    Seriously…I don't understand this. It seems like every day there is an ongoing argument about the trails at Albion. Its kind of contradictory… Albion is "flat", and well…you can't change the topography right? According to you it will never be at the caliber of Blue and Kelso. Still you complain because you don't like what Albion has to offer and target the rather large xc community who does. Why? Because there is some incomprehensible chance that there are trail users who enjoy different trails than you? Is a couple of log overs and a well crafted jump going to change things? Probably not (as you said). Ultimately: Don't like Albion? Honey badger don't give a shit—go ride somewhere else. It sounds like you have precisely described the exact uncontrollable geographic features that make the Albion trails what they are, and if those don't suit your preferred style of riding, complain to the god of geology or something.
    Quote Originally Posted by nspace View Post
    That is precisely the problem. You only read my post. It's easy to misunderstand that I made no such claims that the only possibility for Albion is tame smooth trails when you read it out of context.
    To me it sounds like you're telling people "tough ****" Albion is not blue or kelso and therefore they're only going to have only smooth XC singletrack and you can go complain to God if you don't like it.

    That is pigeon hole thinking which lacks creativity to see Albion can be made interesting beyond XC(and perhaps refuses to admit it wasn't all XC previously). Maybe I can set you on the right track, that is take a place like joyride 150. It is flatter than albion yet attracts all sorts of different riders through it's creative use of features. Albion could be much more, but "tough ****" thinkers, that you might think of yourself as, refuse to envision it. So be it, honey badgers all the way down.

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    electrik: Please just give me a chance. I am not making those any of those claims. That is what Devinci is implying! Take 20 seconds to look at the bit of text from Devinci's post that I quoted. In my post I was paraphrasing what he said to understand what he was trying to say. I don't agree that Albion should be considered "flat" or that the trail possibilities are limited. He/she seems to imply that topographically speaking, Albion is doomed from never progressing beyond its current point, but then also gets worked up about the fact that it will never be Blue or at the same caliber as blue. As if its hopeless. I never once said that and the only way you could possibly think that I did, was if you did not read what was said prior to my post, by others, namely Devinci.

    Honestly I am not advocating for anything he says. You are defending Devinci and he is the one who said exactly the thing you are getting on my back about. So I would greatly appreciate if you read the posts I responded to, and stopped making assumptions about my riding style or what I like to ride or what I want Albion to be.

  101. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by nspace View Post
    electrik: Please just give me a chance. I am not making those any of those claims. That is what Devinci is implying! Take 20 seconds to look at the bit of text from Devinci's post that I quoted. In my post I was paraphrasing what he said to understand what he was trying to say. I don't agree that Albion should be considered "flat" or that the trail possibilities are limited. He/she seems to imply that topographically speaking, Albion is doomed from never progressing beyond its current point, but then also gets worked up about the fact that it will never be Blue or at the same caliber as blue. As if its hopeless. I never once said that and the only way you could possibly think that I did, was if you did not read what was said prior to my post, by others, namely Devinci.

    Honestly I am not advocating for anything he says. You are defending Devinci and he is the one who said exactly the thing you are getting on my back about. So I would greatly appreciate if you read the posts I responded to, and stopped making assumptions about my riding style or what I like to ride or what I want Albion to be.
    Okay nspace, I get you and i think you understand what i'm saying also. Anyway at least you don't come off as elitist as others in the thread who de-ride anybody managing to have fun riding the escarpment through their creative use of what elevation changes we have. However, what i don't like is reading that people should simply get lost if they don't like a trail. You probably agree that isn't the right way to deal with stuff either because you end up with covert actions like the ones that start this thread. Despite trying to be inclusive, I do agree that the saboteur(s) should really get lost because there is no room for unilaterally kicking down structures or modifying such a popular trail that was already so bereft of tiny features/challenges.

  102. #102
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    aaa
    Last edited by nspace; 08-27-2011 at 08:42 AM.

  103. #103
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    I agree. No one here is advocating that anyway.

    How do we do it?


    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    The solution is stop turning everything into a one trick pony that you can ride backwards with your eyes closed.

  104. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip View Post
    As attempts at internet martyrdom go, I think you have used the 3-wood above when you really should have considered pulling the driver out of the bag and going for the green.
    It's been removed, and I am still aloud to post, but you are right my friend. I should have gone for the green.
    A bad day on the bike is better than a good day doing anything else...

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  105. #105
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    you are just temporarily undead...

    the information is travelling down internet highways as we speak...

    Quote Originally Posted by mtbmeister View Post
    It's been removed, and I am still aloud to post, but you are right my friend. I should have gone for the green.

  106. #106
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    Hey Scott Holmes

    do you check your private message box ever?

    When can we ride Duntroon again? Any weekly race series? Can I bribe you for a guided tour? Beer? Singlemalt? Anything?

  107. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo View Post
    How do we do it?
    Introduce a review and mandate for creative options that will break up the monotony. Scatter some more rocks add a berm, skinny or a tabletop. It isn't magic. In the case of Albion they can start putting back features and alternate lines that were taken out a few years ago after some apparently novices fell off them.

    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo View Post
    can you please do that with me as well?
    Sorry, but that task it too monumental. You will have to contact the pros.


  108. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    Introduce a review and mandate for creative options that will break up the monotony. Scatter some more rocks add a berm, skinny or a tabletop. It isn't magic. In the case of Albion they can start putting back features and alternate lines that were taken out a few years ago after some apparently novices fell off them.
    even a little bird on the tree outside my townhouse can sing that song...

    but how do I do it?

    do I phone a senior stakeholder and request it or do I send email?

    do I do it?

    you are holding it against those that are accepting Albion Hills for what it is - based on your talk. when Pinecomb Express was introduced this summer EVERYONE that I know loved it for it's few new features. Same with High Roller. The fact that Albion Hills is not to your and few others liking, is not MY fault. I did not build cheater lines. I do not use them. Everyone that I know, that I ride or race with - is the same.

    So where did this feud come from?

    The only shakeholder that is building at Albion Hills improved this location immensely since they got involved. Before them - it was a write off.

    Did you approach TRCA or CHICO with your suggestions or offer to volunteer during trail building days - and help build features with alternate lines? Would not that be the right approach? I would support TTF at Albion Hills, that would not change the natural landscape but would make riding more challenging.

    I would also chase out those that are sabotaging someone else's work.

    Why are we arguing about this when most of us are in agreement?

    As one programmer that I know would say - violent agreement.

    what gives?




    Sorry, but that task it too monumental. You will have to contact the pros.

    [/QUOTE]

  109. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    Introduce a review and mandate for creative options that will break up the monotony. Scatter some more rocks add a berm, skinny or a tabletop. It isn't magic.
    That's actually a reasonable description of the new High Roller. Have you tried that one yet?
    Please enjoy seeing this terrible collection of me - something wonderful is about to happy.

  110. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo View Post
    even a little bird on the tree outside my townhouse can sing that song...

    but how do I do it?

    do I phone a senior stakeholder and request it or do I send email?

    do I do it?

    you are holding it against those that are accepting Albion Hills for what it is - based on your talk. when Pinecomb Express was introduced this summer EVERYONE that I know loved it for it's few new features. Same with High Roller. The fact that Albion Hills is not to your and few others liking, is not MY fault. I did not build cheater lines. I do not use them. Everyone that I know, that I ride or race with - is the same.

    So where did this feud come from?

    The only shakeholder that is building at Albion Hills improved this location immensely since they got involved. Before them - it was a write off.

    Did you approach TRCA or CHICO with your suggestions or offer to volunteer during trail building days - and help build features with alternate lines? Would not that be the right approach? I would support TTF at Albion Hills, that would not change the natural landscape but would make riding more challenging.

    I would also chase out those that are sabotaging someone else's work.

    Why are we arguing about this when most of us are in agreement?

    As one programmer that I know would say - violent agreement.

    what gives?
    Firstly, Albion hills is not a write off as far as i'm concerned. It is not my goto trail anymore either - maybe if i was going to turn hot laps. The new sections are nice and definitely an improvement over where things were going a few year ago.

    Chico racing isn't somewhere i'd volunteer, but then the argument that because you're not doing it you should shutup and sit down doesn't hold much water when one deals with a shared resource. Such a line of fallacious argument is one Rob Ford uses all the time. "you're not elected i am i make decisions so **** off while i do what i want". So as a "tax payer" into our little democracy, if that is what we want, i think i'm entitled to an opinion and if i see an opportunity to actually do something and get a return i'd enjoy then i am likely to commit. Otherwise you and other can keep setting up the straw man and saying that people who want change, but aren't able to effect it because they are a minority are just whiners. I'm sure that will make for endless name calling.

  111. #111
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    Elektrik: thanks for giving it a second read. I'm all for progressing trails and if that's at Albion, cool. I don't think Albion has to appeal to everyone. Lots of stuff at Blue isnt going to be well suited for my rigid singlespeed, and thats cool with me. My reason for the harshness of the get lost part of my msg was that I felt it was odd that someone (who drew an offensive connection between retards and those who like the trails at Albion) complains about the trails and also implies that it's a hopeless effort to improve them because of it's natural topography and terrain. It just seems like one of those impossible realities *if that's how he's thinking. The the only sensible conclusion I can come to is to not ride there and ride at places like Blue or Kelso where you actually enjoy the trails. Let those who enjoy it at Albion, enjoy it.*

    Devinci: that is fine by me, but I invite you to illustrate these false arguments that I made up on your behalf.*

  112. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    Firstly, Albion hills is not a write off as far as i'm concerned. It is not my goto trail anymore either - maybe if i was going to turn hot laps.
    It was, a few years ago, before Chico and TRCA got involved.


    Chico racing isn't somewhere i'd volunteer
    why?

    , but then the argument that because you're not doing it you should shutup and sit down doesn't hold much water when one deals with a shared resource. Such a line of fallacious argument is one Rob Ford uses all the time. "you're not elected i am i make decisions so **** off while i do what i want".
    and who was listening to those that elected Ford during times that Ford was not a mayor? Mr. Miller? Ford is not entitled to anything less than Mr. Miller during his time. If Mr Miller was entitled to spend my money like a "drunken sailor", Ford is entitled now to get me my money back by cutting services that WE DO NOT NEED. There is a difference between want and need.


    So as a "tax payer" into our little democracy, if that is what we want, i think i'm entitled to an opinion and if i see an opportunity to actually do something and get a return i'd enjoy then i am likely to commit.
    of course. no one is taking away your entitlement to have an opinion. but you still didn't tell me what are we arguing about? i also would not mind technical features at Albion Hills. what is your problem with my opinion about Albion Hills?

    Otherwise you and other can keep setting up the straw man and saying that people who want change, but aren't able to effect it because they are a minority are just whiners. I'm sure that will make for endless name calling.
    Huh? can you please point me in direction of that statement? i do not remember anyone said anything like that. Also, when i say "if you don't like Albion Hills - don't go there" i say it simply because i do the same. when i feel like riding Kelso i go to Kelso. When i feel like turning my legs in to noodles i go to Hardwood Hills. When i feel like killing myself in the rocks i to go Hilton Falls or Buckwallow.

    Same with music. my iPod has Mozart and Fiddy Cent... Johnny Cash and Kraftwerk.

    But you will not hear me complaining about lack of XC at Blue, because Blue is God given for DH and not XC, though there are some attempts to build XC - don't know if they are revenue oriented, but most likely yes. The East Coast Open course was brutal, even for die hard climbing lovers.

    Can you define the problem between you and I clearly? How are your riding preferences different than mine - generally.

  113. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo View Post
    Huh? can you please point me in direction of that statement? i do not remember anyone said anything like that.
    I think I can own up to one or more historical statements along those lines, although there was a little more to it than that.

    EDIT: In order to have the full context, I have retrieved the text below from the post in question. The reference to "whiners" is electrik's own wording, although I can't stop him from reading that into my text if he wishes. Also note that I am not saying that a trail system has to conform to one style or level of trails only. In fact, in the same thread that I plucked this from I said the exact opposite. It would be fantastic if the needs of each and every user segment could be met in every case, but let's be realistic - this is the real world and that just isn't going to happen. For those motivated to make the effort, keep trying by all means (I admire the effort), just spare me the blame game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip
    As I've stated every time the opportunity arises for my entire posting history on MTBR, I don't place any one rider group as being superior to any other. XC, DH, FR, AM, trials, BMX, Jumping, road, CX, track, uni, bike polo etc. I ride several of those disciplines, in addition to just being an everyday bike commuter. For those I don't participate in I am still an interested observer. Everyone is welcome to enjoy whatever type of riding they want. They're all good.

    However, in terms of allocation of resources I don't believe that any one segment has an obligation to subsidize the other's efforts, if that's not a type of riding they are interested in. If a segment isn't able to carve out the niche they want for any number of reasons, that's just the world at large finding its equilibrium.

    I have some other recreational activities I participate in, as do members of my family that don't get receive the level of support, interest, or access to facilities that I wish we had. If I don't like the present situation my choices are to try to change it or find another activity. If I'm unwilling to try, or unable to effect change, so be it. That's life.
    Last edited by Circlip; 08-26-2011 at 05:20 PM.

  114. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo View Post
    It was, a few years ago, before Chico and TRCA got involved.




    why?



    and who was listening to those that elected Ford during times that Ford was not a mayor? Mr. Miller? Ford is not entitled to anything less than Mr. Miller during his time. If Mr Miller was entitled to spend my money like a "drunken sailor", Ford is entitled now to get me my money back by cutting services that WE DO NOT NEED. There is a difference between want and need.




    of course. no one is taking away your entitlement to have an opinion. but you still didn't tell me what are we arguing about? i also would not mind technical features at Albion Hills. what is your problem with my opinion about Albion Hills?



    Huh? can you please point me in direction of that statement? i do not remember anyone said anything like that. Also, when i say "if you don't like Albion Hills - don't go there" i say it simply because i do the same. when i feel like riding Kelso i go to Kelso. When i feel like turning my legs in to noodles i go to Hardwood Hills. When i feel like killing myself in the rocks i to go Hilton Falls or Buckwallow.

    Same with music. my iPod has Mozart and Fiddy Cent... Johnny Cash and Kraftwerk.

    But you will not hear me complaining about lack of XC at Blue, because Blue is God given for DH and not XC, though there are some attempts to build XC - don't know if they are revenue oriented, but most likely yes. The East Coast Open course was brutal, even for die hard climbing lovers.

    Can you define the problem between you and I clearly? How are your riding preferences different than mine - generally.
    Not interested in working under Chico's flag - why ought I to be?

    The point about Rob Ford was only to help you figure out that just because you're in charge doesn't mean you should take it for granted that your opinion on a matter is therefore true reality and others can't possess an equal and different truth.

    Albion hills doesn't have to be pigeon holed as a boring XC race course.

    What i've seen you do that turns me off is sadistically taunt and torment those riders who are in an earnest minority while hiding under your "XC Racer" hat sitting safe in a majority knowing full well that the voice of dissent is not strong enough. Often the final words "if you don't like it then change it" come out as a cheap means to dismiss the validity of an actual claim since obviously their inability to convince management is proof of the failure of their design and perhaps character. What is bizarre is then you promptly turn coat and court those minority back. Why do you care? Perhaps not finished with your mouse or unsure of your nature. All internet antics and such a tiny game that has nothing todo with whats my riding preferences. You'd be well advised to find a better use for your time here!

  115. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by aerius View Post
    I think there's one question which needs to be asked: is it worth it? It obviously takes a ton of time & effort to get anything done at Albion, is it worth it to spend all that time & effort to make small incremental improvements there or is it better to direct that energy elsewhere and have a chance of making much larger advancements?

    For whatever reason, we seem to spend a disproportionate amount of time belly-aching about the Albion & Don trails, which incidentally are the ones we can do the least about. I'd bet there's a lot of other trail systems out there where we can get a much better return for our efforts.
    one can't always drive for hours... the albion and don trail systems are part of a large urban community of all sorts of incomes, alot of people don't have the mobility that some of you enjoy.
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  116. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    Wow, tough talk nspace.

    It might surprise you to learn that Albion was not always laid out the way it is today. People seem to lack imagination of what one can do with a so called "flat" trail and that is disappointing. Such pigeon holed model thinking is symptomatic of the current trail maintenance and revenue brigade materializing their cookie cutter business philosophy allover our trails. I suggest you try to spice up your trail palate instead of risking ending up the sort of guy who thinks "donut rides" are the only way to enjoy riding and that the east coast has no terrain so we should all move to the west coast.
    well said electrik...
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  117. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    Not interested in working under Chico's flag - why ought I to be?

    The point about Rob Ford was only to help you figure out that just because you're in charge doesn't mean you should take it for granted that your opinion on a matter is therefore true reality and others can't possess an equal and different truth.
    you are twisting reality my friend. who is in charge where? Bell Mobility is in position of charge for their business and they think they have a good business model. They served me bellow acceptable level and I took my business elsewhere. TRCA and Chico are doing a good job at Albion Hills and they have my business. Stefan and Horsheshoe Resort do not cater to what I enjoy doing at my spare time, hence they don't have my business. Doesn't mean that they are bad because they excluded my needs. They chose to cater to DH and FR community and that is fine with me. I am not saying that Horseshoe sucks or that it is boring, just because I do not like that type of riding.

    You and few others, on the other hand, say just that about Albion Hills - because you do not like the style of riding that Albion Hills offers.

    I admit that I compared publicly owned land to privately owned - but the general concept is the same. If Horseshoe was publicly owned and Stefan put a bid on building the system that caters to DH or FR community - I would not say Horseshoe sucks because I do not enjoy DH or FR. I'd take my business elsewhere - where I would have fun.

    That is pretty simple.

    Albion hills doesn't have to be pigeon holed as a boring XC race course.
    It is pigeon holed as a boring XC race course only by you and few others. Great majority of people, not only here, obviously feel and think otherwise. Come to Albion Hills this weekend and see for yourself. Compare it to East Coast Open if you wish.

    What i've seen you do that turns me off is sadistically taunt and torment those riders who are in an earnest minority while hiding under your "XC Racer" hat sitting safe in a majority knowing full well that the voice of dissent is not strong enough. Often the final words "if you don't like it then change it" come out as a cheap means to dismiss the validity of an actual claim since obviously their inability to convince management is proof of the failure of their design and perhaps character. What is bizarre is then you promptly turn coat and court those minority back. Why do you care? Perhaps not finished with your mouse or unsure of your nature.
    I think you are pushing it pretty far with your statements. I never called myself and XC racer. I spend way more time riding than racing. That is completely irrelevant to this discussion though. What bothers you is my opinion and willingness to stand behind it. Much like yours. You torment those that disagree with you as much as I torment those that disagree with me - if you really want to call that tormenting. Who did we lose today? Did we torment them or did they torment us?

    Have your opinion, and be passionate about it, that is fine with me. But don't cry foul when you are confronted with same measure that you hand out to others.

    All internet antics and such a tiny game that has nothing todo with whats my riding preferences.
    Did I not say just that when you called me an XC racer. If you don't like that, and if it has nothing to do with this discussion - why are YOU doing that?

    You'd be well advised to find a better use for your time here!
    ok, daddy. can i stay up a bit longer tonight please?

  118. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket View Post
    one can't always drive for hours... the albion and don trail systems are part of a large urban community of all sorts of incomes, alot of people don't have the mobility that some of you enjoy.
    True, but there's also Mimico Creek for example. There's probably 30 or so minutes worth of trails in there in isolated stretches, but with a comprehensive plan they can be linked together into a much larger system. There's a ton of development potential in there and it's right in the middle of Etobicoke and easily accessible. There's someone who's sorta working on that for cyclocross, I'd imagine that if we put our organizational skills behind it we can get a heck of a lot done in there rather than tilting at windmills in Albion.

    I think we need to look at the bigger picture at times; I'm pretty sure most of us know of a local trail system which can be greatly improved with a bit of organizing, lobbying, and work. My opinion is that we should put more of our energy towards these sorts of projects rather than fighting the organized establishment at places such as Albion.

  119. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    To me it sounds like you're telling people "tough ****" Albion is not blue or kelso and therefore they're only going to have only smooth XC singletrack and you can go complain to God if you don't like it.

    That is pigeon hole thinking which lacks creativity to see Albion can be made interesting beyond XC(and perhaps refuses to admit it wasn't all XC previously). Maybe I can set you on the right track, that is take a place like joyride 150. It is flatter than albion yet attracts all sorts of different riders through it's creative use of features. Albion could be much more, but "tough ****" thinkers, that you might think of yourself as, refuse to envision it. So be it, honey badgers all the way down.
    i don't understand this aversion to creativity... but it can be a method of keeping the status quo...
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  120. #120
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    Where did you get that?

    I would love to see a feature park at Albion, like Joyride. I'd spend more time at Albion if they built something like that. Lots of people around here, that you pigeonholed as sausage suits, spend a lot of time at Joyride.

    Now, how can you help us get a feature park at Albion?

    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket View Post
    i don't understand this aversion to creativity... but it can be a method of keeping the status quo...

  121. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo View Post
    you are twisting reality my friend. who is in charge where? Bell Mobility is in position of charge for their business and they think they have a good business model. They served me bellow acceptable level and I took my business elsewhere. TRCA and Chico are doing a good job at Albion Hills and they have my business. Stefan and Horsheshoe Resort do not cater to what I enjoy doing at my spare time, hence they don't have my business. Doesn't mean that they are bad because they excluded my needs. They chose to cater to DH and FR community and that is fine with me. I am not saying that Horseshoe sucks or that it is boring, just because I do not like that type of riding.

    You and few others, on the other hand, say just that about Albion Hills - because you do not like the style of riding that Albion Hills offers.

    I admit that I compared publicly owned land to privately owned - but the general concept is the same. If Horseshoe was publicly owned and Stefan put a bid on building the system that caters to DH or FR community - I would not say Horseshoe sucks because I do not enjoy DH or FR. I'd take my business elsewhere - where I would have fun.

    That is pretty simple.



    It is pigeon holed as a boring XC race course only by you and few others. Great majority of people, not only here, obviously feel and think otherwise. Come to Albion Hills this weekend and see for yourself. Compare it to East Coast Open if you wish.



    I think you are pushing it pretty far with your statements. I never called myself and XC racer. I spend way more time riding than racing. That is completely irrelevant to this discussion though. What bothers you is my opinion and willingness to stand behind it. Much like yours. You torment those that disagree with you as much as I torment those that disagree with me - if you really want to call that tormenting. Who did we lose today? Did we torment them or did they torment us?

    Have your opinion, and be passionate about it, that is fine with me. But don't cry foul when you are confronted with same measure that you hand out to others.



    Did I not say just that when you called me an XC racer. If you don't like that, and if it has nothing to do with this discussion - why are YOU doing that?



    ok, daddy. can i stay up a bit longer tonight please?
    Lets be honest, Albion is already becoming a victim of it's own albiotardness as evidenced by the OP's issues. Even a XC guy like you is getting upset by the trail sanitation.

    You do know horseshoe is a private resort and Albion takes tax dollars. Why don't you tell people who don't like Albion to goto Whistler. What? can't goto whistler? you just want somebody to realize hot lap XC racing isn't the be all for us and we shouldn't design our trails as cookie cutters for hotlaps? Hogwash, pishposh! Whistler is right there! See! Now go on..

    24hr racing was getting boring a few years ago, but i might stop by to see you un-XC race guys not XC racing.

  122. #122
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    actually the points you made can be construed as a policy conflict and needs further investigation. if one wants to be an unpaid volunteer to a private for profit business entity thats fine. i know i prefer to volunteer to help my community as a whole and ask nothing in return. (committee work, donation of materials, numerous trail builds, etc)





    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    Not interested in working under Chico's flag - why ought I to be?

    The point about Rob Ford was only to help you figure out that just because you're in charge doesn't mean you should take it for granted that your opinion on a matter is therefore true reality and others can't possess an equal and different truth.

    Albion hills doesn't have to be pigeon holed as a boring XC race course.

    What i've seen you do that turns me off is sadistically taunt and torment those riders who are in an earnest minority while hiding under your "XC Racer" hat sitting safe in a majority knowing full well that the voice of dissent is not strong enough. Often the final words "if you don't like it then change it" come out as a cheap means to dismiss the validity of an actual claim since obviously their inability to convince management is proof of the failure of their design and perhaps character. What is bizarre is then you promptly turn coat and court those minority back. Why do you care? Perhaps not finished with your mouse or unsure of your nature. All internet antics and such a tiny game that has nothing todo with whats my riding preferences. You'd be well advised to find a better use for your time here!
    Last edited by singlesprocket; 08-26-2011 at 06:57 PM.
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  123. #123
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    lets start with a trail plan overseen by a fair and equable committee of community stakeholders (now where did i hear that before). the building is the easy part.
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  124. #124
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    To me, the best aspect of mountain biking is not mountain biking itself, in most of the cases. It is it's social aspect and incredible camaraderie. You should try for yourself.
    Last edited by osokolo; 08-26-2011 at 07:08 PM.

  125. #125
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    It is already there.

    Now, you may not like it based on what came out of it, but everything you listed is there already.

    Garage Monster posted a link to the master plan, that includes MTB trails, I believe.

    So the system is in place. Now what?

    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket View Post
    lets start with a trail plan overseen by a fair and equable committee of community stakeholders (now where did i hear that before). the building is the easy part.

  126. #126
    namagomi
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket View Post
    actually the points you made can be construed as a policy conflict and needs further investigation. if one wants to be an unpaid volunteer to a private for profit business entity thats fine. i know i prefer to volunteer to help my community as a whole and ask nothing in return. (committee work, donation of materials, numerous trail builds, etc)
    I guess it's appealing if you're in the Chico "family" or something. That isn't me though.

    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo View Post

    To me, the best aspect of mountain biking is not mountain biking itself, in most of the cases. It is it's social aspect and incredible camaraderie. You should try for yourself.
    I agree that social aspect of mtb race is appealing, but I think my brain would explode if I were to visit you irl.

    Be sure to check there has been no tom-foolery on the pinecomb express. Alternately to ensure no tampering you chould run by those Chico friends to consider handing out bonus time to people clearing technical sections without stopping.
    Last edited by electrik; 08-26-2011 at 07:08 PM. Reason: privacy

  127. #127
    9 lives
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket View Post
    lets start with a trail plan overseen by a fair and equable committee of community stakeholders (now where did i hear that before). the building is the easy part.
    http://forums.mtbr.com/eastern-canad...ml#post7187078

  128. #128
    sock puppet
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    I guess that is it for discussion...

    Thanks for trying though...

    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    I guess it's appealing if you're in the Chico "family" or something. That isn't me though.



    I agree that social aspect of mtb race is appealing, but I think my brain would explode if I were to visit you irl.

    Be sure to check there has been no tom-foolery on the pinecomb express. Alternately to ensure no tampering you chould run by those Chico friends to consider handing out bonus time to people clearing technical sections without stopping.

  129. #129
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    I don't know who posted this between you two, but let's see

    Quote Originally Posted by cyclelicious View Post
    Singlesprocket,
    There was no TRCA presence here until June 2010, so we couldn't have answered any questions posed before then.

    Yes, you are reading correctly. There was NO trail plan, formal or temporary, created for this Improvement project. We are not changing the overall trail system yet, just enhancing specific areas. Since a trail plan was not created, there was no opportunity for stakeholder input. We consulted with on-site parks, and Chico Racing staff to decide what improvements were of highest priority to complete with the grant money. We have a much bigger list of improvements we would like to make, but they will have to wait until the Master Plan.
    I was wrong regarding the Master Plan. However, it seems that they did not need it for the grant money they had on their disposal. Improvements were positive, even for naysayers.

    A Request for Quotation (for the singletrack improvements) was sent out to a minimum of three contractors (as per TRCA purchasing policy), and the contract was awarded to Holmes Landscaping and Grading, who worked closely with Chico Racing staff. A separate Request for Quotation was sent out for the doubletrack improvements and was awarded to Rayburn Construction Ltd.

    The other properties in Peel that I am referring to are:
    -Heart Lake CA - Master Plan completed in 2006
    -Palgrave Forest and Wildlife Area - Trail plan completed 2008
    Both of these projects had a complete process for public consultation, including public meetings, and the formation of Advisory Committees and Stewardship Committees.
    -Bolton RMT - Currently we are working on a full Management Plan for the Bolton Resource Management Tract. There have been public meetings for this plan, advertised in both the local paper and on our website.
    As a taxpayer - I am pretty happy with this. Anything wrong with what TRCA is doing?

    Did you Chris attend these public meetings regarding Bolton RMT? Isn't that exactly what you are advocating. Seems TRCA is doing a great job.

    Have you contributed to these plans? There was ample opportunity for the public to become involved. Would TRCA staff recognize you from public meetings and stewardship committee meetings?
    Have you?

  130. #130
    namagomi
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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo View Post
    Thanks for trying though...

    IF this is the end of the thread it is time now for a classy money shot.
    <object width="400" height="300"><param name="allowfullscreen" value="true" /><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always" /><param name="movie" value="http://vimeo.com/moogaloop.swf?clip_id=23305369&amp;server=vimeo.co m&amp;show_title=0&amp;show_byline=0&amp;show_port rait=0&amp;color=00adef&amp;fullscreen=1&amp;autop lay=0&amp;loop=0" /><embed src="http://vimeo.com/moogaloop.swf?clip_id=23305369&amp;server=vimeo.co m&amp;show_title=0&amp;show_byline=0&amp;show_port rait=0&amp;color=00adef&amp;fullscreen=1&amp;autop lay=0&amp;loop=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowscriptaccess="always" width="400" height="300"></embed></object>
    Something a certain eyes wide shut west coat backwards riding trail swinger might appreciate. Cheers!

  131. #131
    No. Just No.
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    IF this is the end of the thread it is time now for a classy money shot. Something a certain eyes wide shut west coat backwards riding trail swinger might appreciate. Cheers!
    Questionable technique. I would invert the grip orientation relative to the pump barrel on both hands. He does have the mini-pump stroke #874 facial expression down pat though.

  132. #132
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    thanks cyclelicious, forgot about that thread oh and here is one more...

    http://forums.mtbr.com/eastern-canad...ed-691985.html

    Quote Originally Posted by cyclelicious View Post
    broadcasting from
    "the vinyl basement"

    build trail!

  133. #133
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    Given the amount of rain we had last night Albion would likely dry out by this afternoon?

    Puddles only perhaps?
    Last edited by pikester; 09-22-2011 at 06:49 AM.

  134. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by pikester View Post
    Given the amount of rain we had last night Albion would likely dry out by this afternoon?

    Puddles only perhaps?
    i'd stay away from the immediate chalet area, but everything else should be just fine... enjoy!

  135. #135
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    Many Thanks!!! That was exactly the type of feedback I was seeking!

    Afternoon off - yipee!!!

  136. #136
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    so how was the ride?



    Quote Originally Posted by pikester View Post
    Many Thanks!!! That was exactly the type of feedback I was seeking!

    Afternoon off - yipee!!!

  137. #137
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    Actually it was great!

    Only car in the lot when we got there.

    Trails were fantastic, as was the weather (squeezing in that last bit of summer).

    Thanks again for the trail advice - it made the difference in the "go or no go" decision.

  138. #138
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    Went there last night - one tree down on Pinecomb Express. Lots of ridearound trail widening happening around lately at the smallest of roots. Also some shortcuts are being worn in.


    The rain seems to have helped pack down most of the sand that was showing up. The ground conditions were excellent.

  139. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuprGrovr View Post
    Went there last night - one tree down on Pinecomb Express. Lots of ridearound trail widening happening around lately at the smallest of roots. Also some shortcuts are being worn in.


    The rain seems to have helped pack down most of the sand that was showing up. The ground conditions were excellent.
    Ridearound trail widening , shortcuts being worn in !!
    Are bikers becoming lazy or just timid??

  140. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crash&bern View Post
    Ridearound trail widening , shortcuts being worn in !!
    Are bikers becoming lazy or just timid??
    The ridearounds I chalk up to an increase in new riders trying singletrack towards the end of the season. The shortcuts though? The trail is a loop for crying out loud.

  141. #141
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  142. #142
    namagomi
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuprGrovr View Post
    The ridearounds I chalk up to an increase in new riders trying singletrack towards the end of the season. The shortcuts though? The trail is a loop for crying out loud.
    Sure it's not lazy people failing to dismount? OR was that dudes doing hot laps.. hm

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