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  1. #1
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    Great video on who E-bikes are for

    I am sure this will start (yet again) a lively debate but this video makes great points about who a e-bike is good for.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ED0m3CbRLcI

    Good take aways from the video

    * if you're not racing it is not cheating.
    * mtb is about fun
    * two friends can ride more thanks to the e-bike.

  2. #2
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    that is SO my situation - can't keep up with riding mates on climbs (thanks to a heart condition), but shred like the best of them heading down. Now (with Focus Jam2) to ride much less waiting around, and more time on the singletrack = no downside, just more riding. Its almost embarrassing but when you finish a really fun trail you can say, "wow, lets do another lap eh!" Wild horses wouldn't have got me doing that before e-assist !

  3. #3
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    cliff notes:
    squamish rider gets easily discouraged by climbs, with a peculiar habit of suddenly dismounting and pushing/walking
    is very skilled on the descents (from park riding)

    gets on the Norco emtb
    rides pedally stuff that he once dreaded
    giggles from the power assist; even the guy getting a tow giggles
    claims to only need eco mode, at least on the downhill
    7000 bucks is a lot, but it's so good that he would sell a quiver of 3 bikes for one, if those 3 sold for enough to afford it (financially held back)
    "work your ass off on a $1500 bike, or have fun on a $7000 bike"
    justifies that it removes excuses, being more open to ideas like climbing to the "top of the world"

    My takeaway... $7000, with questionably lame geo (in my size, Med). That, and it'd likely put pressure on others, who I ride with, to get one too. Pass.

    With a bit of refinement, maybe I'll reconsider. Still waiting for info and reviews of that Lapierre eZesty, which may reignite my interest since it's between an emtb and AM bike (but likely too rich for me). Until that ebike that I'm looking for comes out, I'm not going to bother getting involved in the controversy. There's far worse to be worried about. Heck horses, hunters, hikers carrying big sticks or whatever, homeless, groups of "punks" (or other shady looking folks), and off leash dogs would bother me more than someone on a class 1 emtb on the trails. I have doubts that they're any worse than a regular mtn biking novice. That, and the local laws need to be more supportive of emtbs (class 1). I figure that the more they're talked about, the more the whole truth about 'em spreads, and cements their place in the world.
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by pedalingkiwi View Post
    that is SO my situation - can't keep up with riding mates on climbs (thanks to a heart condition), but shred like the best of them heading down. Now (with Focus Jam2) to ride much less waiting around, and more time on the singletrack = no downside, just more riding. Its almost embarrassing but when you finish a really fun trail you can say, "wow, lets do another lap eh!" Wild horses wouldn't have got me doing that before e-assist !
    So just another lie by the ebike crowd. You have a heart condition so you can't ride a real bike with your mates. I have heard on here countless times that heart rates are as high or higher when riding a moped. Which is it?
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  5. #5
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    then why are you hanging out here with 'the ebike crowd' if you hate them, and call them liars? There are at least 20 other subforums on this MTB site for you to go find something you like.

  6. #6
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    Norco **** it up with the Sight VLT, they went with a carbon frame and no aluminium options. Light Bikes are nice, but on an E-Bike it's a bit different, you can set it up with strong parts that last longer and cost a lot less. Even hardtails are nice and they are really affordable.

  7. #7
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    The price on the Norco is relatively reasonable compared to competing bikes. That price is $7,000cdn, which is only $5300USD. I doubt there is a less expensive carbon fullie eMTB in the same league of quality and componentry. And yet the market is full of choices starting with basic junky e-hardtails for under $2k, up to the Giant Dirt-e at $3000ish and then up into fullies above that.

    But I agree something is wrong in the world when a fairly simple thing like a 50 lb eMTB costs nearly as much as a complex and amazing 350lb superbike motorcycle offering 100x the power (and nearly the price of the Zero e-motorcycle). However a lot of that goes back to the outrageous prices of non-e mountain bikes and components in general - made and marketed in a different way than bicycles; they get the price people will pay, not what the cost to efficiently manufacture plus profit should be.

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  8. #8
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    I wish I could understand the hatred directed towards e-bike users.

    I haven't ridden an e-bike, but can't quite understand why they are hated by so many.

    Do people just need time to understand that the e-bike exists before they can accept it?

    Just like suspension? What a waste of time. Right?
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  9. #9
    Bicycles aren't motorized
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forest Rider View Post
    I wish I could understand the hatred directed towards e-bike users.

    I haven't ridden an e-bike, but can't quite understand why they are hated by so many.

    Do people just need time to understand that the e-bike exists before they can accept it?

    Just like suspension? What a waste of time. Right?
    Whoever invented USB music devices was dumb. We should all have 8-tracks.





    The answer is that they aren't bicycles and they are a threat to hard won access.
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    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    The answer is that they aren't bicycles and they are a threat to hard won access.
    Your wrong they are bicycles with assist time to accept that as technology advances things change it is that way with everything in life

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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    The answer is that they aren't bicycles and they are a threat to hard won access.
    They are a category unto themselves. I'm a purist and not a fan of e-bikes, but they are taking hold with some folks. It makes biking much easier, essentially. It's not solely biking nor is it totally brapping.
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forest Rider View Post
    I wish I could understand the hatred directed towards e-bike users.

    I haven't ridden an e-bike, but can't quite understand why they are hated by so many.

    Because this-

    Quote Originally Posted by scottxpc View Post
    Your wrong they are bicycles with assist time to accept that as technology advances things change it is that way with everything in life


    Like a lot of people I've nothing against electric bikes but I do have a problem with them gaining access wherever bicycles are allowed under the guise of being"non-motorized".
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  13. #13
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    Interesting seeing the dislike for a tool that allows more people to enjoy the hobby. This "you have to earn the climb" is not a good reason to dislike something.

    The video has two guys that can now enjoy the hobby together, how is that a bad thing?

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenPsz View Post
    Interesting seeing the dislike for a tool that allows more people to enjoy the hobby. This "you have to earn the climb" is not a good reason to dislike something.

    The video has two guys that can now enjoy the hobby together, how is that a bad thing?
    Exactly right on !

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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenPsz View Post
    Interesting seeing the dislike for a tool that allows more people to enjoy the hobby. This "you have to earn the climb" is not a good reason to dislike something.

    The video has two guys that can now enjoy the hobby together, how is that a bad thing?
    I don't have a horse in this race but the posts your replying to don't have anything to do with this. Bit if a non sequitur.

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  16. #16
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    Saying it another way they are bicycles with motors.

    https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/dmv/de...es/motorcycles

    Quote Originally Posted by scottxpc View Post
    Your wrong they are bicycles with assist time to accept that as technology advances things change it is that way with everything in life

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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by hansdie View Post
    Saying it another way they are bicycles with motors.

    https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/dmv/de...es/motorcycles
    OK and????

    Like the video shows they give access to trails and make riding fun so what's the problem?

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Because this-





    Like a lot of people I've nothing against electric bikes but I do have a problem with them gaining access wherever bicycles are allowed under the guise of being"non-motorized".

    If e-bikes do indeed cause trail shutdowns all over the place, then you are more than justified to have that opinion. Hell, maybe I'll have the same opinion too, if it happens. Until then, it's speculation. It's a few incidents here and there. Maybe it will balloon into a huge problem, maybe not. The more practical angst is against dirt bikes on trails: they can and do cause a lot more problems and damage. Big signs at one of my riding areas now that say no dirt bikes. The neighbors hate the noise, pollution, and ground destruction they cause. E-bikes do not fit into the same category in any of the three problems above that dirt bikes cause. 40-60 lb bikes that make little noise and no pollution vs. offroad motorcycles. Is it that hard to see the differences?

    Again, if e-bikes somehow mess up most or all trail access for normal bikes, that is a horrible outcome, but it would be an arbitrary, perception-based outcome, not a practical one.

  19. #19
    Bicycles aren't motorized
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenPsz View Post
    OK and????

    Like the video shows they give access to trails and make riding fun so what's the problem?



    "They" don't have access everywhere. It's those pesky rules, laws and regulations.
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  20. #20
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    I didn't watch the whole vid but the first 10 words are a lie.
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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    "They" don't have access everywhere. It's those pesky rules, laws and regulations.
    The trails where I live and in the video e-mtb have access so again what's the problem if it gets more people into the hobby and lets other people have more fun?

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forest Rider View Post
    I wish I could understand the hatred directed towards e-bike users.

    I haven't ridden an e-bike, but can't quite understand why they are hated by so many.

    Ever study world history? About all the religious wars there were and how many millions died from them? If so, then you'll understand that the greatest hatred is between different factions within the same religion or genre. Two sects or factions of the same religion or in this case genre (bicycles) may hate each other much more than they hate other outside 'alien' or 'barbaric' peoples on their borders. It's like two brothers hating each other more than hating the loud and obnoxious next door neighbor. They can stand the neighbor but they cannot stand each other.

    The perceived (imagined) threat is that soon, all trails will be flooded with e-bikers going much faster than normal, hikers and dog-walkers will start complaining more, and then all trails will be shut down for all bikes. It reminds me a bit of the current immigration debate, although I'll leave it at that and not go into all of the many, many parallels.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    I didn't watch the whole vid but the first 10 words are a lie.
    His name is not Brig or that Brig likes everything mountain biking? Curious what about those first 10 words are a lie?

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by ninjichor View Post
    cliff notes:
    squamish rider gets easily discouraged by climbs, with a peculiar habit of suddenly dismounting and pushing/walking
    is very skilled on the descents (from park riding)

    gets on the Norco emtb
    rides pedally stuff that he once dreaded
    giggles from the power assist; even the guy getting a tow giggles
    claims to only need eco mode, at least on the downhill
    7000 bucks is a lot, but it's so good that he would sell a quiver of 3 bikes for one, if those 3 sold for enough to afford it (financially held back)
    "work your ass off on a $1500 bike, or have fun on a $7000 bike"
    justifies that it removes excuses, being more open to ideas like climbing to the "top of the world"

    My takeaway... $7000, with questionably lame geo (in my size, Med). That, and it'd likely put pressure on others, who I ride with, to get one too. Pass.

    It doesn't have to be $7000. You can do a mid-drive conversion with battery, and if needed LBS installation for around $1100. Total. On just about any aluminum-framed bike you currently own. But if you are picky about bike weight, refinement, etc., then you are right, maybe it isn't for you. Or maybe you are already having enough fun on all trails/fire roads as it is. But don't think that every e-bike is $7000, and that you need to spend $7000 to have more fun offroad.

  25. #25
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    Just was trying to clarify what these "bikes" really are. Wish people wouldn't try and hide the fact that its a bike with a motor.

    No problem, it would be more fun for me if all trails were open to dirt bikes but who knows maybe the ebikes will open the path for the electric dirt bike to have access too. Because for me and I guarantee for Brig it's a lot more fun to twist a throttle than spin a crank.

    Quote Originally Posted by KenPsz View Post
    OK and????

    Like the video shows they give access to trails and make riding fun so what's the problem?

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenPsz View Post
    His name is not Brig or that Brig likes everything mountain biking? Curious what about those first 10 words are a lie?


    "Brig loves everything about mountain biking" , quickly followed by "Brig hates climbing".
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  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    "Brig loves everything about mountain biking" , quickly followed by "Brig hates climbing".
    Right? He likes mountain biking, but not climbing, and he likes nothing more than flow trails. Doesn't sound anything like mountain biking to me.

    Also, trail access issues are much different in the U.S. than in other countries. These conversations almost always "end" with Europeans not understanding the issues faced by U.S. mountain bikers. Paul the Punter clearly does not have experience with U.S. Issues, nor does Brig appear to have any experience with real mountain biking.

  28. #28
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    Kind of funny but you exactly described what happened to mountain bikers in SF bay area by Hikers and equestrians.

    MTBer, hikers and equestrians all love the outdoors so should be working together for more public access to land. But instead hikers and equestrians completely shutdown access to most trails and parks for MTBers.

    So now the debate is going on to allow access for ebikes to MTB trails and the selling points for ebikes are more people on trails, going further and faster. The hikers and equestrians at the moment are saying NO WAY thats the opposite of what they want. But most ebikes look like regular bikes so they just ride illegally. My opinion is that since there no way to effectively differentiate or enforce the ebike the land managers will just start restricting access even further to bikes.

    And maybe that will be the end game we all ride super light stealth e motorcycles and just poach everything because "technology".


    Quote Originally Posted by richj8990 View Post
    Ever study world history? About all the religious wars there were and how many millions died from them? If so, then you'll understand that the greatest hatred is between different factions within the same religion or genre. Two sects or factions of the same religion or in this case genre (bicycles) may hate each other much more than they hate other outside 'alien' or 'barbaric' peoples on their borders. It's like two brothers hating each other more than hating the loud and obnoxious next door neighbor. They can stand the neighbor but they cannot stand each other.

    The perceived (imagined) threat is that soon, all trails will be flooded with e-bikers going much faster than normal, hikers and dog-walkers will start complaining more, and then all trails will be shut down for all bikes. It reminds me a bit of the current immigration debate, although I'll leave it at that and not go into all of the many, many parallels.

  29. #29
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    I run faster than dog walkers.
    Bicycle riders ride faster than I run.
    E Bicycles riders are faster than pedal bicycles.

    I don't mind passing dog walkers (just with their dog was on a leash short enough to not close line me). I don't mind being passed by a cyclist either.

    I do trail run too and recently, local trail runners are running on bike trails. I wish they didn't because 20 mph down a hill against a trail runner up the hill sounds dangerous.

    At the end of the day we all share trails, paved or dirt, and we mostly get along.

    I dislike horses the most. When I am having fun on a fast downhill then have to stop due to horses it's annoying. On the flip side, the horseback rider probably hates me for scaring their horse.

    I guess the point is that there will always be somebody faster than us that irritates us from 'winning'. Whatever it is that we think we are the winner of.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by hansdie View Post
    Just was trying to clarify what these "bikes" really are. Wish people wouldn't try and hide the fact that its a bike with a motor.

    No problem, it would be more fun for me if all trails were open to dirt bikes but who knows maybe the ebikes will open the path for the electric dirt bike to have access too. Because for me and I guarantee for Brig it's a lot more fun to twist a throttle than spin a crank.
    There is a limit to what is acceptable, I think we can all agree with that.

    Electric motorcycle would be a bridge too far for most people but an electric assist to get you up a trail??? To me that is fine since I hate climbing and see it as a necessary evil.

    Unless your racing this hobby is supposed to be about fun.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by mountainbiker24 View Post
    Right? He likes mountain biking, but not climbing, and he likes nothing more than flow trails. Doesn't sound anything like mountain biking to me.

    Also, trail access issues are much different in the U.S. than in other countries. These conversations almost always "end" with Europeans not understanding the issues faced by U.S. mountain bikers. Paul the Punter clearly does not have experience with U.S. Issues, nor does Brig appear to have any experience with real mountain biking.
    I was thinking about this very thing actually. It does seem that the loudest against e-mtb I have seen online are from California. There is a LOT of trails and riding outside of California.

    What is "real mountain biking" ???? I have never been on a mountain does that mean I don't do mountain biking?

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forest Rider View Post
    I wish I could understand the hatred directed towards e-bike users.

    I haven't ridden an e-bike, but can't quite understand why they are hated by so many.

    Do people just need time to understand that the e-bike exists before they can accept it?

    Just like suspension? What a waste of time. Right?
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    Quote Originally Posted by scottxpc View Post
    Your wrong they are bicycles with assist time to accept that as technology advances things change it is that way with everything in life

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    Quote Originally Posted by KenPsz View Post
    There is a limit to what is acceptable, I think we can all agree with that

    Yes, and we should also agree that one person's idea of what is acceptable might differ from another's.
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Yes, and we should also agree that one person's idea of what is acceptable might differ from another's.
    Sure we can differ but when you want to ban something that is where the issues show up.
    Since as the video shows there is a reasonable usage for a e-mtb that makes the hobby fun. I get why racers and those that like climbing (god knows why) would dislike e-mtb but the hobby needs people in it to thrive.

    I ride with a mini-cow bell to let hikers, dogs, etc... know I'm coming. Just be polite and don't judge because you are jealous or whatever, enjoy the hobby and be happy for those that enjoy it too.

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    Who defines the limit? Anything capable of more than 30 mph would be a motorcycle in California.

    Just need a H-52 https://www.stealthelectricbikes.com/model-range/ but maybe a little lighter and cheaper.

    I not only hate climbing but I hate pedaling. Thus the reason for wanting edirtbike access.

    It is supposed to be fun but when you get a $250 ticket for riding single track when it used to be legal it becomes less fun


    Quote Originally Posted by KenPsz View Post
    There is a limit to what is acceptable, I think we can all agree with that.

    Electric motorcycle would be a bridge too far for most people but an electric assist to get you up a trail??? To me that is fine since I hate climbing and see it as a necessary evil.

    Unless your racing this hobby is supposed to be about fun.

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    also should add we already have 15mph speed limits on trails 5mph when passing or blind corners. That restrictive enough to allow a electric motorcycle on the trails

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenPsz View Post
    Sure we can differ but when you want to ban something that is where the issues show up.

    Do you want motorbikes banned from certain trails? I'm sure there are some people who take issue with that.

    I'll tell you what isn't an issue, if an ebiker passes me on a climb on a legal trail I could care less.
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenPsz View Post
    OK and????

    Like the video shows they give access to trails and make riding fun so what's the problem?
    MA guy here. For me, not legal save 8 or so public spaces in the whole state. So there's that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by richj8990 View Post
    If e-bikes do indeed cause trail shutdowns all over the place, then you are more than justified to have that opinion. Hell, maybe I'll have the same opinion too, if it happens. Until then, it's speculation. It's a few incidents here and there. Maybe it will balloon into a huge problem, maybe not. The more practical angst is against dirt bikes on trails: they can and do cause a lot more problems and damage. Big signs at one of my riding areas now that say no dirt bikes. The neighbors hate the noise, pollution, and ground destruction they cause. E-bikes do not fit into the same category in any of the three problems above that dirt bikes cause. 40-60 lb bikes that make little noise and no pollution vs. offroad motorcycles. Is it that hard to see the differences?

    Again, if e-bikes somehow mess up most or all trail access for normal bikes, that is a horrible outcome, but it would be an arbitrary, perception-based outcome, not a practical one.
    Where does one draw the line? Once that door is opened it's not shutting. 250, 750, 2,000 watts, 5,000 watts, how does one tell by looking? You can't. E motorcycles are a thing.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    I'll tell you what isn't an issue, if an ebiker passes me on a climb on a legal trail I could care less.
    I have been passed twice on climbs in my riding area by eBikes and only took issue with the guy who rode into the bushes to pass me and my buddy who were riding side by side up a doubletrack road. If he had slowed down to ring a bell or in some other way notify us he needed to pass I would not care. But he did not bother to slow down to signal need to pass and instead crushes some bushes. In my personal opinion the bushes were not really hurt by his actions, however many land managers have a different opinion, and needless trail braids or trail widening is never good for access.

    I had zero issue with the other guy who passed me because we were on a double track and he was able to pass without going off the trail.

    Some people read my posts and think I am anti-ebike.... the truth is I would love it if I could afford one, but they are very expensive and out of reach for me at this moment in time. I also am of the belief that they will become illegal in more and more places in the future.
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    Quote Originally Posted by leeboh View Post
    Where does one draw the line? Once that door is opened it's not shutting. 250, 750, 2,000 watts, 5,000 watts, how does one tell by looking? You can't. E motorcycles are a thing.
    the trend is towards pretty good standardization.

    its not the power that is a limiting factor using eMTB, it is the battery capacity and range. And that is what we see changing.

    e-moto is a thing like making moonshine is a thing. Sure it's something that's out there, but its a rare thing because it doesn't really appeal for practical MTB riding purposes. It's illegal and the quality of these e-moto are DIY garbage, compared to a refined commercial class 1 eMTB.

    Slippery slope argument as you try here is considered a fallacy in logic, BTW. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope

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    Just curious have you dealt with any motorsports as a hobby? For sure there will be aftermarket tuning and hop up to unlock the full potential. For example a specialized eMTB is limited to ~15mph but it takes less than 5 minutes to convert from class1 to class3, up to 28mph. Obviously not everyone will do this but some will.

    If you look at car manufactures they too could standardize on output levels but they don't. My car has a top speed of ~110mph but the fastest I drive anywhere is 70mph. Bikes are and will be the same as long as you don't exceed the trail speeds limits you're fine with what ever you have. I have an ebike for commuting that should be classified as a moped but how does anyone know unless I'm speeding?

    As someone else said eMTB access should be classified separately from regular MTB, not try to be lumped together.

    Right now all the eMTBers I'm seeing are riding illegally on trails since all the trails are illegal to them.

    Quote Originally Posted by BCsaltchucker View Post
    the trend is towards pretty good standardization.

    its not the power that is a limiting factor using eMTB, it is the battery capacity and range. And that is what we see changing.

    e-moto is a thing like making moonshine is a thing. Sure it's something that's out there, but its a rare thing because it doesn't really appeal for practical MTB riding purposes. It's illegal and the quality of these e-moto are DIY garbage, compared to a refined commercial class 1 eMTB.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BCsaltchucker View Post
    the trend is towards pretty good standardization.

    its not the power that is a limiting factor using eMTB, it is the battery capacity and range. And that is what we see changing.

    e-moto is a thing like making moonshine is a thing. Sure it's something that's out there, but its a rare thing because it doesn't really appeal for practical MTB riding purposes. It's illegal and the quality of these e-moto are DIY garbage, compared to a refined commercial class 1 eMTB.

    Slippery slope argument as you try here is considered a fallacy in logic, BTW. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope
    The " appeal" is to all those moto and atv guys and gals that have been shut out of the system for decades. There are refined e motorcycles too. Dressed up to look like a bike, just saying. MA guy here, not many legal moto public riding areas in the whole state. 8 or so. Illegal doesn't stop the poachers on dirt bikes and atv's here either. Not even with fines and the vehicles being impounded. Victoria BC? You should be in the CAD forum. Dude. No crown land down here.

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by BCsaltchucker View Post
    then why are you hanging out here with 'the ebike crowd' if you hate them, and call them liars? There are at least 20 other subforums on this MTB site for you to go find something you like.
    Because I don't want them on most of the single track that I ride. I would be fine with them on fire roads, directional trails only, but not climbing single track. It is selfish reason but, I don't want to have to slow down when I am descending because some one may be coming around a corner going uphill at downhill speeds.

    Do you know who its really hard for to climb on a bike? Me, but it is part of it. I am sorry if you need a day off, or a different type of ride. I am sorry if you can't keep up with your friends or want to do 5 laps after work instead of 1.

    For the guys that are physically incapable of riding anything but an ebike, we can figure something out, maybe a 5 mph limit. Why do you need more than that? It will help you climb and downhill takes care of itself.

    The places they are legal, are fine. Fire roads etc, but I will advocate against them on all the trails I ride.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sfgiantsfan View Post
    Because I don't want them on most of the single track that I ride. I would be fine with them on fire roads, directional trails only, but not climbing single track. It is selfish reason but, I don't want to have to slow down when I am descending because some one may be coming around a corner going uphill at downhill speeds.

    Do you know who its really hard for to climb on a bike? Me, but it is part of it. I am sorry if you need a day off, or a different type of ride. I am sorry if you can't keep up with your friends or want to do 5 laps after work instead of 1.

    For the guys that are physically incapable of riding anything but an ebike, we can figure something out, maybe a 5 mph limit. Why do you need more than that? It will help you climb and downhill takes care of itself.

    The places they are legal, are fine. Fire roads etc, but I will advocate against them on all the trails I ride.
    Well I will give you this at least you are honest about your selfish reasons for not liking e-mtb.

    I feel the same way about people that ride up any trail that has a great downhill to it.

    What you want is a power restriction since speed can't be controlled given gears etc... unless you want all bikes to be restricted to 5 mph. Restricting watts to 250 and only allow for pedal assist that should be a good compromise.

    The 750 watt midrive I have for commuting that allows me to pedal uphill at 15+ mph I agree is total over kill for trails. Weird part though it is cheaper to buy a retro fit 750 watt system over a 250 one.

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    If ebikes are being kept off of trails because they are so fast that they are dangerous to slower riders, why arenít experts and pros banned too? Arenít they also dangerous to others since their climbing speeds are so much faster than most others on the trail and they will be descending at a faster speed as well?

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    I think the video is spot on.

    Guess Iím lucky. The several local trails I ride on are mostly one direction, very rarely have hikers and never have horses.

    No one, including the builders and guys that maintain the trails (myself included), give a rats ass if you ride an eBike or a peddle bike as long as youíre having fun.

    We donít have a ranger problem around here, if a trail gets shut down it wonít be because someone rode an eBike.

    My Devinci Ac XT will arrive this week.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KenPsz View Post
    Well I will give you this at least you are honest about your selfish reasons for not liking e-mtb.

    I feel the same way about people that ride up any trail that has a great downhill to it.

    What you want is a power restriction since speed can't be controlled given gears etc... unless you want all bikes to be restricted to 5 mph. Restricting watts to 250 and only allow for pedal assist that should be a good compromise.

    The 750 watt midrive I have for commuting that allows me to pedal uphill at 15+ mph I agree is total over kill for trails. Weird part though it is cheaper to buy a retro fit 750 watt system over a 250 one.
    The trails I am talking about restrict climbing to about 4-8mph by the steepness anyway.
    Its very rare to see someone climbing much faster.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WoodlandHills View Post
    If ebikes are being kept off of trails because they are so fast that they are dangerous to slower riders, why arenít experts and pros banned too? Arenít they also dangerous to others since their climbing speeds are so much faster than most others on the trail and they will be descending at a faster speed as well?
    Pros make up less than 1% of riders. I don't care about bikes passing me climbing at higher speeds, happens all the time. If an expert rider passes me when I am going 4 and he's going 8, who cares. I know for a fact that hikers/haters don't like being passed on climbs at downhill speeds.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sfgiantsfan View Post
    The trails I am talking about restrict climbing to about 4-8mph by the steepness anyway.
    Its very rare to see someone climbing much faster.
    You are requiring the impossible since there is no way for the electric motor to know you are climbing vs. descending.

    The best you could ask for is a hard restriction to 250 watts on public trails.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KenPsz View Post
    You are requiring the impossible since there is no way for the electric motor to know you are climbing vs. descending.

    The best you could ask for is a hard restriction to 250 watts on public trails.
    Or even easier would be no motors on public trails.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mountainbiker24 View Post
    Or even easier would be no motors on public trails.
    No that would be selfish and not in the spirit of the video.

    I will tell you one thing I am glad I don't live where many of you do given the restriction you have or want.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hansdie View Post
    Who defines the limit? Anything capable of more than 30 mph would be a motorcycle in California.

    Just need a H-52 https://www.stealthelectricbikes.com/model-range/ but maybe a little lighter and cheaper.

    I not only hate climbing but I hate pedaling. Thus the reason for wanting edirtbike access.

    It is supposed to be fun but when you get a $250 ticket for riding single track when it used to be legal it becomes less fun
    Have you tried video games? No climbing or pedaling with a ton of easy access trails.

    Quote Originally Posted by WoodlandHills View Post
    If ebikes are being kept off of trails because they are so fast that they are dangerous to slower riders, why arenít experts and pros banned too? Arenít they also dangerous to others since their climbing speeds are so much faster than most others on the trail and they will be descending at a faster speed as well?
    Expert level riders also have the experience and skills to handle riding faster than most other people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mountainbiker24 View Post
    Expert level riders also have the experience and skills to handle riding faster than most other people.
    what nonsense is this???

    I have been run off the trail by a group of "expert" riders that were total a-holes because they felt they had those skills.

    Can I demand they stay off the trails then?

    fast inconsiderate people are fast inconsiderate people.

  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenPsz View Post
    You are requiring the impossible since there is no way for the electric motor to know you are climbing vs. descending.

    The best you could ask for is a hard restriction to 250 watts on public trails.



    The best would be an outright ban on motorized conveyances.
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    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    The best would be an outright ban on motorized conveyances.
    Best for who????

    Since I and other seem to have no issues with it.

  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenPsz View Post
    Best for who????

    Since I and other seem to have no issues with it.


    Best for cyclists.
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  57. #57
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    And, there are plenty of cyclists that have issues with motorized vehicles on the trails.
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    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    Best for cyclists.
    Says who you???

    Just on this thread there is a disagreement on that point.

    Hell hikers would LOVE to see bikers removed from trails
    Horse riders would LOVE to see hikers and bikers removed from tails.
    Some environmentalist would love to see everyone removed.

    So what makes you different from those three groups?

    I like the tech and when I can afford it will buy one for the reasons shown in the video on the original post.

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    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    And, there are plenty of cyclists that have issues with motorized vehicles on the trails.
    I will counter with there are plenty that don't, so who gets to call the tune?

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    Quote Originally Posted by KenPsz View Post
    I will counter with there are plenty that don't, so who gets to call the tune?

    Are you ok with 1000 watts? 125cc dirt bikes? 500cc? Where is your limit?
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  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenPsz View Post
    I will counter with there are plenty that don't, so who gets to call the tune?



    Land managers.
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    I watched this video before I saw the thread. It was entertaining. I still won't be buying an E-bike, and I bet I hate climbing more than most of you. I hope they are never allowed on our trails, and I hope they enjoy the many trails that are available to motorized vehicles.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WoodlandHills View Post
    If ebikes are being kept off of trails because they are so fast that they are dangerous to slower riders, why arenít experts and pros banned too? Arenít they also dangerous to others since their climbing speeds are so much faster than most others on the trail and they will be descending at a faster speed as well?
    No silly, pros got skills. Tom, Dick, and Jane, on their maiden voyage upon an electric motor bike, do not.


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  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenPsz View Post
    what nonsense is this???

    I have been run off the trail by a group of "expert" riders that were total a-holes because they felt they had those skills.

    Can I demand they stay off the trails then?

    fast inconsiderate people are fast inconsiderate people.
    They didnít run you off the trail because they had skills, they ran you off the trail because they were douchebags. Theyíd act the same, likely worse, on an electric motor bike.


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  65. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenPsz View Post
    Best for who????

    Since I and other seem to have no issues with it.
    Best for the good of the whole. You and yours are a minority when you consider ALL of the user groups.


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    Great video on why if you're not lazy, why you DON'T need an e-bike, even at 82 years old Full write up/interview

    One day your life will flash before your eyes, will it be worth watching??

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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Are you ok with 1000 watts? 125cc dirt bikes? 500cc? Where is your limit?
    I already addressed that in a post above.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mbmb65 View Post
    Best for the good of the whole. You and yours are a minority when you consider ALL of the user groups.


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    Why do you think you are in the majority?
    What you counting hikers and horses???? What the enemy of my enemy is my friend now for this discussion?

    These threads are a hoot!

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    Quote Originally Posted by KenPsz View Post
    You are requiring the impossible since there is no way for the electric motor to know you are climbing vs. descending.

    The best you could ask for is a hard restriction to 250 watts on public trails.
    It would not be impossible to design a system that detected if your were climbing vs descending, I bet it would be pretty simple. Mercury switch? If ebikers truly just wanted a little help on the climbs and a "bicycle experience", they would push for that. I think most of them would be disappointed and the manufacturers know that.

    I know of one ebiker in this thread who has admitted to riding an over wattage ebike in another thread. He said he was going to get it detuned. I wonder if that has happened.
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  70. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenPsz View Post
    Why do you think you are in the majority?
    What you counting hikers and horses???? What the enemy of my enemy is my friend now for this discussion?

    These threads are a hoot!




    If you don't think that all of the user groups are going to mean something in access decisions you're even more so naive than you appear to be.
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenPsz View Post
    I already addressed that in a post above.

    Are you referring to this?

    Quote Originally Posted by KenPsz View Post
    The best you could ask for is a hard restriction to 250 watts on public trails.

    It so you should recognize the hypocracy involved with that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    If you don't think that all of the user groups are going to mean something in access decisions you're even more so naive than you appear to be.
    Oh the horrible naive comment how horrible. LOL

    You mean the user groups that already are fighting?

    Must really suck for you guys in CA and MA that can't seem to get along at all for trails.
    Where I live in the Midwest we don't have these problems and e-mtb are just part of the fun (like the video).

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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Are you referring to this?




    It so you should recognize the hypocracy involved with that.
    What hypocrisy? I have no problems with motorized bikes unlike several here, the all or nothing many seem to need I don't agree with. So you might want to go and review what hypocrisy actually means.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mbmb65 View Post
    They didnít run you off the trail because they had skills, they ran you off the trail because they were douchebags. Theyíd act the same, likely worse, on an electric motor bike.


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    So the problem isn't e-bikes is douchbags on bikes period.

    But hey so much easier to blame a technology than actually deal with the douchbags since that is easier, right.

  75. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenPsz View Post
    I already addressed that in a post above.
    Quote Originally Posted by KenPsz View Post
    You are requiring the impossible since there is no way for the electric motor to know you are climbing vs. descending.

    The best you could ask for is a hard restriction to 250 watts on public trails.
    Quote Originally Posted by KenPsz View Post
    What hypocrisy? I have no problems with motorized bikes unlike several here, the all or nothing many seem to need I don't agree with. So you might want to go and review what hypocrisy actually means.


    You have no problem with them but you think they should be restricted? That's exactly how I feel about electric bikes.
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    I ride a ebike and a regular mountain bike and much prefer my regular mountain bike, but after riding a 30 mile ride on the regular mountain bike I have to rest, now with the ebike I can ride the next day.

    I really think the hate comes from ego and pride, I mean a mountain bike person who is fit and in shape and put in his time and effort is now being passed on the trail by out of shape people and that is driving a lot of them nuts IMO

  77. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Mac View Post
    I ride a ebike and a regular mountain bike and much prefer my regular mountain bike, but after riding a 30 mile ride on the regular mountain bike I have to rest, now with the ebike I can ride the next day.

    I really think the hate comes from ego and pride, I mean a mountain bike person who is fit and in shape and put in his time and effort is now being passed on the trail by out of shape people and that is driving a lot of them nuts IMO




    You could not possibly be more off base with your asinine assumption.
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenPsz View Post
    Oh the horrible naive comment how horrible. LOL

    You mean the user groups that already are fighting?

    Must really suck for you guys in CA and MA that can't seem to get along at all for trails.
    Where I live in the Midwest we don't have these problems and e-mtb are just part of the fun (like the video).




    We've already aligned with the local equestrian groups, build trails for both user groups. Next.
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  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenPsz View Post
    So the problem isn't e-bikes is douchbags on bikes period.

    But hey so much easier to blame a technology than actually deal with the douchbags since that is easier, right.
    Uhm, no. Douchebags are just another user group. The choice of recreation is insignificant and unrelated to what weíre talking about here. Itís simple really:motorized vehicles should continue to be banned on non motorized trails. That part is easy.


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    Quote Originally Posted by KenPsz View Post
    Why do you think you are in the majority?
    What you counting hikers and horses???? What the enemy of my enemy is my friend now for this discussion?

    These threads are a hoot!
    Because I am. Why would I not include equestrians and hikers? Do you not? That might be part of your problem.


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    Quote Originally Posted by KenPsz View Post
    Oh the horrible naive comment how horrible. LOL

    You mean the user groups that already are fighting?

    Must really suck for you guys in CA and MA that can't seem to get along at all for trails.
    Where I live in the Midwest we don't have these problems and e-mtb are just part of the fun (like the video).
    Nope. Got 15 miles of singletrack 100 yds from my door. Can ride all day in a couple of directions with some short pave connections, North of Boston. Motos had access, trashed the trails, and now for the most part banned. Going to be a long road back for them. The coasts are for the most part older, more people and more trail access issues. Lots of land/deed/openspace/conservation rules regarding motorized vehicles. Plus the state park/forest system ( DCR) that only has 8? os so place for the motos to ride. Works for me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mbmb65 View Post
    Because I am. Why would I not include equestrians and hikers? Do you not? That might be part of your problem.


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    Hikers and horse riders are not going to care if a bike has a motor on it or not, so to attempt to use them to boost the anti-e-bike idea is silly.

    Luckly where I'm at hikers and bikers work together to build trails and fight the horse back riders that are a bunch of entitled jerks. The bikers here also don't have this hatred of e-mtb that seems to be happening on the costs.

    That is why I find these "discussions" so interesting since like much of the mountain biking topic the costs seem to want to run the discussion, sorry but there are many more bikers out side of those areas that get a say also.

  83. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbmb65 View Post
    Uhm, no. Douchebags are just another user group. The choice of recreation is insignificant and unrelated to what weíre talking about here. Itís simple really:motorized vehicles should continue to be banned on non motorized trails. That part is easy.


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    We can do this dance over and over since no motorized bikes should not be banned. Only douch bags (of all types) should be banned.

    Since like the video shows you can be a e-biker and not a douch bag.

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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    You have no problem with them but you think they should be restricted? That's exactly how I feel about electric bikes.
    Problem is you want a full restriction (aka a ban) from bike trails which is very different from my opinion.

    I am all for expanding the hobby and if a little technical help gets people out there and they are not douch bags about it I say welcome aboard.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KenPsz View Post
    Problem is you want a full restriction (aka a ban) from bike trails which is very different from my opinion.

    You are mistaken, never have I said or written that.
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    I have no problem with sharing trails with e-bikes, but they are NOT mountain bikes.
    Cuz motor.
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  87. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    You are mistaken, never have I said or written that.
    A post above (#12) that you made contains "Like a lot of people I've nothing against electric bikes but I do have a problem with them gaining access wherever bicycles are allowed under the guise of being"non-motorized"."

    Does that not imply you don't want them on bike trails? Or is there a more nuanced statement you are trying to make with that statement?

    Why can you just not let folks like Brig (who's not a douch bag) have fun on the trails, yet he hates climbing and wants a little assistance?

    J.B. Weld maybe it is the tone of your writing that leads me to believe you want e-mtb's banned from trails. But re-reading some of your posts you do seem to be OK if they are denoted as what they are and the trail is open to them. So then becomes the question are you for closing trails to motorized e-mtb? (just for clarification).

  88. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    I have no problem with sharing trails with e-bikes, but they are NOT mountain bikes.
    Cuz motor.
    Oh now here is an interesting statement that is worth more discussion.

  89. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenPsz View Post
    A post above (#12) that you made contains "Like a lot of people I've nothing against electric bikes but I do have a problem with them gaining access wherever bicycles are allowed under the guise of being"non-motorized"."

    Does that not imply you don't want them on bike trails? Or is there a more nuanced statement you are trying to make with that statement?

    If you read that post again you'll see that I never mentioned or implied anything about banning electric bikes. I thought I was pretty clear and there are no intended nuances. To put it another way I strongly believe that a "No Motor Vehicles" sign should mean no electric bikes but that doesn't mean the sign couldn't be changed through the proper legal process.
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  90. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenPsz View Post
    Hikers and horse riders are not going to care if a bike has a motor on it or not, so to attempt to use them to boost the anti-e-bike idea is silly.

    Luckly where I'm at hikers and bikers work together to build trails and fight the horse back riders that are a bunch of entitled jerks. The bikers here also don't have this hatred of e-mtb that seems to be happening on the costs.

    That is why I find these "discussions" so interesting since like much of the mountain biking topic the costs seem to want to run the discussion, sorry but there are many more bikers out side of those areas that get a say also.
    Where I live, none of the various user groups; mtbers, trail runners, hikers and equestrians want ebikes on non motorized trails. We all get along, and support each other in building new trails. How the communities interact is different everywhere.

    Land managers here are not interested in adding them to the mix for various reasons, one of which that hasn't yet been mentioned here is that of easements and funding issues which preclude allowing motorized vehicles.


    Quote Originally Posted by KenPsz View Post
    The best you could ask for is a hard restriction to 250 watts on public trails.
    Quote Originally Posted by KenPsz View Post
    What you want is a power restriction since speed can't be controlled given gears etc... unless you want all bikes to be restricted to 5 mph. Restricting watts to 250 and only allow for pedal assist that should be a good compromise.

    The 750 watt midrive I have for commuting that allows me to pedal uphill at 15+ mph I agree is total over kill for trails. Weird part though it is cheaper to buy a retro fit 750 watt system over a 250 one.
    The various ebike laws in the US define an ebike as 750w and below, so there won't be any subclass for 250w ebikes. If you're adovcating for ebikes to be allowed on trails, you're actually advocating for 750w ebikes to be allowed on trails.

  91. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenPsz View Post
    Hikers and horse riders are not going to care if a bike has a motor on it or not.
    This sentence leads me to believe you have never once in your life attended a trail access meeting with a board of directors where they had to hear arguments from both hiker user groups and mountain biker user groups.

    Maybe in your small little corner of the world there are no trail issues and everyone gets along in a multi-use trail utopia, but not in the rest of the United States. Just look at any time groups try to get access to pedal on the PCT, the hiker groups come out in mass against it. Add a motor to the bike and things WILL get more heated from the hiker groups.
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  92. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    If you read that post again you'll see that I never mentioned or implied anything about banning electric bikes. I thought I was pretty clear and there are no intended nuances. To put it another way I strongly believe that a "No Motor Vehicles" sign should mean no electric bikes but that doesn't mean the sign couldn't be changed through the proper legal process.
    Ah OK thank you for the clarification.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post
    The various ebike laws in the US define an ebike as 750w and below, so there won't be any subclass for 250w ebikes. If you're adovcating for ebikes to be allowed on trails, you're actually advocating for 750w ebikes to be allowed on trails.
    I have a 750 on a commuter bike and that would be way overkill for trails. But boy is it fun to pass the guy on the $5000 road bike. Passing at 15 mph going up hill then hearing them try to keep up is funny.

    Would want the same on the trails not so much since the trails are tighter and that would just not work. I have been looking to retro fit a fatbike and there is nothing under 1000watts for a retro.

    Oh well, guess I keep pedaling and hating climbing.

  94. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenPsz View Post
    Oh well, guess I keep pedaling and hating climbing.
    Learn to love the burn. ;-)

    I MTB with my 38lb son sitting on a MacRide seat on my bike.... you think Climbing is hard, try adding 40lbs of wiggling weight between you and your handlebars......


    Great video on who E-bikes are for-mk-n-da-bug-cala.jpg
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  95. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    This sentence leads me to believe you have never once in your life attended a trail access meeting with a board of directors where they had to hear arguments from both hiker user groups and mountain biker user groups.
    You would be wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    Maybe in your small little corner of the world there are no trail issues and everyone gets along in a multi-use trail utopia, but not in the rest of the United States. Just look at any time groups try to get access to pedal on the PCT, the hiker groups come out in mass against it. Add a motor to the bike and things WILL get more heated from the hiker groups.
    Oh we have plenty of trail issues. Mostly it is horse riders trying to take trails and banning all other uses. Most of the trails around where live are build by mountain bikers with the county and state rangers determining who gets to use what. Once the horses are allowed it seems to only take a few years before a trail is exclusively theirs. So the going trend seems to be more and more rocky trails to keep horses off.

    To keep hikers happy I have a bell on my bike and encourage others to as well. Since having a mountain bike sneak up on you at speed sucks.

    So we are back to don't be a douch bag and people should be able to get along electric motor or not.

  96. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    Learn to love the burn. ;-)

    I MTB with my 38lb son sitting on a MacRide seat on my bike.... you think Climbing is hard, try adding 40lbs of wiggling weight between you and your handlebars......


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    After 23+ years of riding I am not going to learn to love the burn, I tolerate it get to downhills. But the climbs do influence how much I do ride, since like Brig I would be able to ride more with some assistance going uphill.

  97. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    This sentence leads me to believe you have never once in your life attended a trail access meeting with a board of directors where they had to hear arguments from both hiker user groups and mountain biker user groups.
    Agree completely.

    Nothing wrong with e-bikes on their own. You try to start pushing the 'well, mountain bikes have motors now' angle though, you're opening up a can of worms, and mountain bikers are the ones that'll lose access because of it.

    Enjoy riding your e-bikes and good luck with the advocacy end of things, but please leave mountain bikers out of the equation. A lot of access depends on the fact that it's a strictly human-powered, 'passive' form of recreation. If you don't think this is true, refer again to Klurejr's assessment.
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    Agree completely.

    Nothing wrong with e-bikes on their own. You try to start pushing the 'well, mountain bikes have motors now' angle though, you're opening up a can of worms, and mountain bikers are the ones that'll lose access because of it.

    Enjoy riding your e-bikes and good luck with the advocacy end of things, but please leave mountain bikers out of the equation. A lot of access depends on the fact that it's a strictly human-powered, 'passive' form of recreation. If you don't think this is true, refer again to Klurejr's assessment.
    Klurejr's assessment would be wrong, but feel free to run with it.

    Like it or not mountain bikers are not going to be "left out of it" because non-biking trail users don't see the distinction they see a bike. Many a hiker have a hatred of mountain bikers so bikers throwing their own under the bus isn't going to get you bikers any more love from hikers.

  99. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    Learn to love the burn. ;-)

    I MTB with my 38lb son sitting on a MacRide seat on my bike.... you think Climbing is hard, try adding 40lbs of wiggling weight between you and your handlebars......


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    Bicycles with a child seat should be banned from all trails.
    Teehee

  100. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenPsz View Post
    I have a 750 on a commuter bike and that would be way overkill for trails. But boy is it fun to pass the guy on the $5000 road bike. Passing at 15 mph going up hill then hearing them try to keep up is funny.

    Would want the same on the trails not so much since the trails are tighter and that would just not work. I have been looking to retro fit a fatbike and there is nothing under 1000watts for a retro.

    Oh well, guess I keep pedaling and hating climbing.
    So how are you planning on keeping those 1000 watt retros off the trails once ebikes are allowed? 1200 wattsÖ?

    And yes, our fear is that other user groups will just see a "bike" so when they don't like "bikes" passing them at 15+ mph going uphill, they will push for all bikes to be banned. That's why we don't like ebikers trying to ride in on our coattails.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oh My Sack! View Post
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