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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    You could not possibly be more off base with your asinine assumption.
    terrible way to represent the ebike community, name calling is not the way to promote the wonderful sport of ebikes grow up and check the ego

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenPsz View Post
    You would be wrong
    Okay, so at the last meeting you went to, when the hikers spoke about trail access what were their opinions on bikes in general? Did anyone speak about motorized bikes and access? Did the hikers have anything to say about motorized bikes being granted the same access to trails as pedal only bikes and hikers?

    I am genuinely interested in your experience in this matter. It might be helpful to know exactly what meeting this was. Who was the land manager in this case, City, County, State, Federal? Who were you presenting to? City Council? Ranger Board, etc.... The more details the better.
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  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Mac View Post
    terrible way to represent the ebike community, name calling is not the way to promote the wonderful sport of ebikes grow up and check the ego
    Life Behind Bars in no way represents the eBike community. haha. Have you read his posts?
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  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    So how are you planning on keeping those 1000 watt retros off the trails once ebikes are allowed? 1200 watts…?

    And yes, our fear is that other user groups will just see a "bike" so when they don't like "bikes" passing them at 15+ mph going uphill, they will push for all bikes to be banned. That's why we don't like ebikers trying to ride in on our coattails.

    I was recently in a county meeting where Ebikes were permanently allowed on any surface trails. The Land manager in charge replied to one of the 2 detractor present during the public comment session (7 negative comment total for 59 supporting) with great common sense that I hope will prevail here in Colorado and other places:

    "E bikes are bicycles, we won't ban ebikes, we will ban riders breaking the law. We have speed limit in place, and we have been enforcing them for a decade."

    Simple.

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    So how are you planning on keeping those 1000 watt retros off the trails once ebikes are allowed? 1200 watts…?

    And yes, our fear is that other user groups will just see a "bike" so when they don't like "bikes" passing them at 15+ mph going uphill, they will push for all bikes to be banned. That's why we don't like ebikers trying to ride in on our coattails.
    I am not about banning technology I don't think that way.
    The fights between bikers and hikers have been going on for decades since many a biker is a douch bag to hikers as it is today. E-bikes don't make that situation any worse.

    I want to see more people in the hobby since numbers are what win the fights not say "not me!"

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    Okay, so at the last meeting you went to, when the hikers spoke about trail access what were their opinions on bikes in general? Did anyone speak about motorized bikes and access? Did the hikers have anything to say about motorized bikes being granted the same access to trails as pedal only bikes and hikers?
    No since around here the issue of cutting up bike usage to "that was not me or my bike" is not a discussion. The overall discussion is about trail access and shared usage, right of way etc...

    But as someone already mentioned there are very different trail issues through the country. Midwest is very different than CA, MA, NY etc....

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by ruthabagah View Post
    I was recently in a county meeting where Ebikes were permanently allowed on any surface trails. The Land manager in charge replied to one of the 2 detractor present during the public comment session (7 negative comment total for 59 supporting) with great common sense that I hope will prevail here in Colorado and other places:

    "E bikes are bicycles, we won't ban ebikes, we will ban riders breaking the law. We have speed limit in place, and we have been enforcing them for a decade."

    Simple.
    As it should be since a douch bag on a bike is a douch bag on a bike.

    General comment:
    Can we get back to the topic of the video and not e-bikes on trails???
    Since the video makes good points about the benefits of e-bikes and for what type of rider.

  8. #108
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    They're toys for selfish enjoyment, just like mountain bikes and motos. They're good for whoever has the cash to buy one and has fun on it. It's not like they're making the world a better place.

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post
    They're toys for selfish enjoyment, just like mountain bikes and motos. They're good for whoever has the cash to buy one and has fun on it. It's not like they're making the world a better place.
    Actually, when I put the commute wheels on my eMTB and ride it to work, it *is* making the world a better place. The old F150 has a much bigger carbon footprint, and a much bigger presence on the road. Since most eMTBs are 27.5+ or 29er already, slapping on a set of 700c wheels turns them into awesome commuters.

    My son just bought a road-oriented eBike to ride to work. The traffic is so bad in Boulder that his 11 mile commute sometimes takes 40 minutes. He bought a Class 3 (28 MPH) and he figures 30 minutes or so for the ride, riding right past the backups at the stoplights that he often sits at for multiple cycles of the lights, less gas, and more fun. Luckily there are good shoulders the entire way to/from work for him.

  10. #110
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    Agreed, if you're using it to replace a car, or haul your load of bannas to market, bikes or ebikes can make the world a slightly better place, but in the context of riding it on mtb trails for fun, it's just indulgent enjoyment. Since the OP's video is about the latter, that is what I was commenting on.

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Mac View Post
    terrible way to represent the ebike community, name calling is not the way to promote the wonderful sport of ebikes grow up and check the ego
    Perhaps it's semantical, but the incident of which you speak is "word" calling, asinine is being used as an adjective. It's describing the word assumption, not name calling.

    That said, I've been lurking a bit. My cousin's fiance was a previous downhill "racer" in a former life and also is completely disinterested in climbing, aka earning the downhills. He loves his ebike and rides it where he can in WI. I talked with him extensively about it at a family gathering and while I don't "get it" I understand that he gets more downhill time since he saves energy going uphill with the motor. A corollary he provided was that I was snowboarder and that perhaps I should walk up the mtn instead of using the lift. I think we'll always have a bit different viewpoint on the subject since I get some satisfaction going up while he believes wholeheartedly it's a waste of time between downhills. Such is the issue with these threads, so let's get along despite disagreeing. That said, my position is that anything with a motor whether it be electric or gas or diesel should not be taken on any trail or road system unless explicitly allowed to do so as shown posted signage or read in that system's regulations and rules sheet.

    People who argue they are part of a group while being simeltaneously rejected by said group is just sad.

    Oh, forgot to comment on the video. I think the guy wimped out on the uphill. The orator in the video describes his friend as a guy's guy, working a tough job, doing physical labor, someone who is fit.... but quits first mentally then physically. Ok fine, his choice until he starts blocking the trail and complaining which could affect others and their enjoyment. I personally think the power of the ebike is not for younger riders who don't want to put the effort into getting to the top, but for those who used to and are having trouble now due to physical limitations. Yep, I see this guy using motor a bit like a training wheel. That said, he has the right to use one anywhere they are allowed but not where they are not.
    I don't know why,... it's just MUSS easier to pedal than the other ones.

  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenPsz View Post
    I have a 750 on a commuter bike and that would be way overkill for trails. But boy is it fun to pass the guy on the $5000 road bike. Passing at 15 mph going up hill then hearing them try to keep up is funny.

    Would want the same on the trails not so much since the trails are tighter and that would just not work. I have been looking to retro fit a fatbike and there is nothing under 1000watts for a retro.

    Oh well, guess I keep pedaling and hating climbing.

    Well...you don't have to get a mid-drive to ride offroad. You could do a rear wheel conversion and then put something like a 2.8 or 3.0 tire on the back, keep the front 4.0. The problem is finding a threaded rear axle on the rear hub motor that's long enough for a fat bike.


    Or...
    ECOTRIC Fat Tire Electric Bike Beach Snow Bicycle 26" 4.0 inch Fat Tire ebike 500W 36V/12AH Electric Mountain Bicycle with Shimano 7 Speeds Lithium Battery Black/Orange/Blue $902

    And then if you don't like that bike, cannibalize the hub and motor and put it on your bike.
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  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Mac View Post
    I ride a ebike and a regular mountain bike and much prefer my regular mountain bike, but after riding a 30 mile ride on the regular mountain bike I have to rest, now with the ebike I can ride the next day.

    I really think the hate comes from ego and pride, I mean a mountain bike person who is fit and in shape and put in his time and effort is now being passed on the trail by out of shape people and that is driving a lot of them nuts IMO

    It's funny how there is so much hate for e-bikes, but when you ask them exactly why, and any solid evidence for why they should be banned, there is a big pause, or a disorganized rant. I'm still waiting on someone to show the evidence for why they should be banned in a civilized and organized manner. Then and only then can there be a gentleman's debate. Until then, tribal mudslinging.
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  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Are you ok with 1000 watts? 125cc dirt bikes? 500cc? Where is your limit?
    500W is probably a good limit on dirt. As mentioned many, many times, a 125cc dirt bike is going to make a lot more noise, pollution, and tear up a trail far worse than the heaviest e-bike. I've seen it happen with dirt bikes, you must have seen it too. All the crushed, pointy rocks strewn all over the trail, ready and waiting to slice up your front tire.

    The watt limit should be set by both trail impact and any hiker/pet walker/normal cyclist complaints. Other than those two issues, what exactly is the problem?
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  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by richj8990 View Post
    Well...you don't have to get a mid-drive to ride offroad. You could do a rear wheel conversion and then put something like a 2.8 or 3.0 tire on the back, keep the front 4.0. The problem is finding a threaded rear axle on the rear hub motor that's long enough for a fat bike.


    Or...
    ECOTRIC Fat Tire Electric Bike Beach Snow Bicycle 26" 4.0 inch Fat Tire ebike 500W 36V/12AH Electric Mountain Bicycle with Shimano 7 Speeds Lithium Battery Black/Orange/Blue $902

    And then if you don't like that bike, cannibalize the hub and motor and put it on your bike.
    I don't care much for the rear wheel systems since I can't directly control the amp draws via gears and down shifting.

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by richj8990 View Post
    500W is probably a good limit on dirt. As mentioned many, many times, a 125cc dirt bike is going to make a lot more noise, pollution, and tear up a trail far worse than the heaviest e-bike. I've seen it happen with dirt bikes, you must have seen it too. All the crushed, pointy rocks strewn all over the trail, ready and waiting to slice up your front tire.

    The watt limit should be set by both trail impact and any hiker/pet walker/normal cyclist complaints. Other than those two issues, what exactly is the problem?
    How do you propose making sure your suggested limits are adhered to?
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  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    How do you propose making sure your suggested limits are adhered to?
    How are any trail restrictions enforced now, It's call rangers checking.

    Rangers can carry a portable watt meter like the do in the Netherlands.

    Then Rangers issue tickets and/or arrest people as needed.

    I don't get this notion that you need someone's permission for everything and rules to enjoy a hobby.

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenPsz View Post
    How are any trail restrictions enforced now, It's call rangers checking.

    Rangers can carry a portable watt meter like the do in the Netherlands.

    Then Rangers issue tickets and/or arrest people as needed.

    I don't get this notion that you need someone's permission for everything and rules to enjoy a hobby.
    I wasn't the one suggesting power limits, and I see no way to enforce them anyway.

    I've also seen a grand total of 1 ranger on a trail in my ~30 years of MTBing.
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  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by richj8990 View Post
    It's funny how there is so much hate for e-bikes, but when you ask them exactly why, and any solid evidence for why they should be banned, there is a big pause, or a disorganized rant. I'm still waiting on someone to show the evidence for why they should be banned in a civilized and organized manner. Then and only then can there be a gentleman's debate. Until then, tribal mudslinging.
    OK, I'll start. Motorized vehicles not allowed on the mutli use off road trails where I ride. (Most of MA, save for a few spots) That's the current rules on the books. Plenty of conservation areas, open space, town lands and reservations also ban motorized vehicles. That's most of the the areas open to hiking and riding, that and the state forest/park system. Same deal. So it's not a why/why not, just currently not legal. Someone wants to change that, have at it. Lots of steps, meeting and advocacy. Good luck with the Sierra Club, AMC and other groups. I ride on lots of conservation areas, the deed restrictions can be very specific and spelled out for no motorized access.

  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenPsz View Post
    I was thinking about this very thing actually. It does seem that the loudest against e-mtb I have seen online are from California. There is a LOT of trails and riding outside of California.

    What is "real mountain biking" ???? I have never been on a mountain does that mean I don't do mountain biking?

    I got an e-bike specifically to climb mountains instead of hills. But I don't consider what I'm doing mountain biking even if I am riding on top of mountains. What I'm doing, functionally, is probably the equivalent of gravel biking on an e-bike (because a lot of these fire roads up the mountain are graveled). Hills are fine to climb with a normal bike. Mountains...man they can be steep to climb, and it seems like the top is always the same distance away. An e-bike can really help that issue climbing mountains.

    Sunday I did a cool fire road loop about 1/3 of the way up a 2000 ft mountain, came down on a really steep trail and then to the main connecting trail to the trailhead. Towards the bottom I heard more than one biker coming up behind the bushes. I'm like great, they will see my e-bike, give me a bunch of crap about riding it on 'their' trails. Nope, two old guys, both very nice, asked how my ride was. There are some open-minded old farts out there!!!

    The current definition of 'real' mountain biking is going downhill with a 29" full-suspension with 2.6 inch tires. The more expensive the better. That as usual will change next year with whatever new marketing trend the brand-name manufacturers collude on.
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  21. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by richj8990 View Post
    I got an e-bike specifically to climb mountains instead of hills. But I don't consider what I'm doing mountain biking even if I am riding on top of mountains. What I'm doing, functionally, is probably the equivalent of gravel biking on an e-bike (because a lot of these fire roads up the mountain are graveled). Hills are fine to climb with a normal bike. Mountains...man they can be steep to climb, and it seems like the top is always the same distance away. An e-bike can really help that issue climbing mountains.

    Sunday I did a cool fire road loop about 1/3 of the way up a 2000 ft mountain, came down on a really steep trail and then to the main connecting trail to the trailhead. Towards the bottom I heard more than one biker coming up behind the bushes. I'm like great, they will see my e-bike, give me a bunch of crap about riding it on 'their' trails. Nope, two old guys, both very nice, asked how my ride was. There are some open-minded old farts out there!!!

    The current definition of 'real' mountain biking is going downhill with a 29" full-suspension with 2.6 inch tires. The more expensive the better. That as usual will change next year with whatever new marketing trend the brand-name manufacturers collude on.
    So have you gotten your 1000W emoped (over 750 watts does not classify as an ebike) reprogrammed to be a legal ebike yet? Someone may have to quote me on this as he implied he was putting me on his ignore list due to my tongue in cheek reply where he was called out for riding illegally:

    https://forums.mtbr.com/e-bikes/auto...l#post13883530

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  22. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    "Brig loves everything about mountain biking" , quickly followed by "Brig hates climbing".

    I agree that mountain biking should be the whole enchilada including climbing, but JB what do you think of downhill riders that use ski lifts to get to the top? Do they love everything about mountain biking?
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  23. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenPsz View Post
    Klurejr's assessment would be wrong, but feel free to run with it.

    Like it or not mountain bikers are not going to be "left out of it" because non-biking trail users don't see the distinction they see a bike. Many a hiker have a hatred of mountain bikers so bikers throwing their own under the bus isn't going to get you bikers any more love from hikers.
    You just said above that you have lost trails to equestrians, now you think that since you have a motor on your bike that you will get more trails?
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  24. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by sfgiantsfan View Post
    You just said above that you have lost trails to equestrians, now you think that since you have a motor on your bike that you will get more trails?
    It would not make a difference.

    The horse back riders take over a trail by putting numbers on the trail and then complaining their animals are being bothered. With enough complains the trail is closed to bikes and hikers.

    We have a county park that is paid for by everyone in that county that is horses only. Nice park too that used to be open to hikers.

    We do have one area of trails that are hiker only.

    All trails where bikes are allowed are multi-use.

  25. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenPsz View Post
    Hikers and horse riders are not going to care if a bike has a motor on it or not, so to attempt to use them to boost the anti-e-bike idea is silly.

    Luckly where I'm at hikers and bikers work together to build trails and fight the horse back riders that are a bunch of entitled jerks. The bikers here also don't have this hatred of e-mtb that seems to be happening on the costs.

    That is why I find these "discussions" so interesting since like much of the mountain biking topic the costs seem to want to run the discussion, sorry but there are many more bikers out side of those areas that get a say also.
    Are you sure they won’t care? That’s not what I’m hearing on the ground. So you’re a horse “hater”? Got it. And what are all these “costs” you’re going on about? I live in a mountain bike destination, you do not. Our situations are vastly different.


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  26. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenPsz View Post
    We can do this dance over and over since no motorized bikes should not be banned. Only douch bags (of all types) should be banned.

    Since like the video shows you can be a e-biker and not a douch bag.
    I don’t understand what any of this is trying to say. Slow down, and try again.


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  27. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenPsz View Post
    How are any trail restrictions enforced now, It's call rangers checking.

    Rangers can carry a portable watt meter like the do in the Netherlands.

    Then Rangers issue tickets and/or arrest people as needed.

    I don't get this notion that you need someone's permission for everything and rules to enjoy a hobby.
    Right. Because the rangers have nothing else to do, and would welcome the opportunity to measure watts produced by an electric motor bike. Plus, there are so many of them on the trails waiting for shit to do because the USFS and the BLM are so well funded. Perfect solution.


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  28. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbmb65 View Post
    Are you sure they won’t care? That’s not what I’m hearing on the ground. So you’re a horse “hater”? Got it. And what are all these “costs” you’re going on about? I live in a mountain bike destination, you do not. Our situations are vastly different.


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    Oh yes I hate those stupid animals, I am not afraid to say that at all.

    Sorry "costs" should've been "coasts" my bad.

    I'm glad you live in a mountain bike destination (so fancy), fair enough but your views should not be shaping what happens in my area and vice versa.

  29. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbmb65 View Post
    I don’t understand what any of this is trying to say. Slow down, and try again.


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    Simple statement not sure what is hard to understand.

    1) We can do this dance over and over again - references our exchanges
    2) No motorized bikes should not be banned
    3) Only douch bags (of all types) should be banned.
    4) Since like the video shows you can be a e-bikder and not a douch bag.

    Was the lack of proper grammar the issue, if so I hope the above clears up the confusion.

  30. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbmb65 View Post
    Right. Because the rangers have nothing else to do, and would welcome the opportunity to measure watts produced by an electric motor bike. Plus, there are so many of them on the trails waiting for shit to do because the USFS and the BLM are so well funded. Perfect solution.


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    You mean doing the job they are paid to do would be a burden???

    I don't get people like you that seem to crave rules and control.

    Don't be a douch bag and a e-bike is no different than any other mountain bike on the trail.

  31. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by richj8990 View Post
    I agree that mountain biking should be the whole enchilada including climbing, but JB what do you think of downhill riders that use ski lifts to get to the top? Do they love everything about mountain biking?
    Lift ticket and private resorts most of the time? Any hikers, dog walkers or horses on those one way trails? Don't think so. My point is that on downhill trails, the bikers are the only ones there, and they bought a ticket. The analogy doesn't work. XC skiers hate on the downhill skiers? Not.

  32. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenPsz View Post
    Simple statement not sure what is hard to understand.

    1) We can do this dance over and over again - references our exchanges
    2) No motorized bikes should not be banned
    3) Only douch bags (of all types) should be banned.
    4) Since like the video shows you can be a e-bikder and not a douch bag.

    Was the lack of proper grammar the issue, if so I hope the above clears up the confusion.
    Ken, how much have you pedaled outside of your slice of hometown? So many different rules and regs all over the country. A giant mashup of state, local and fed rules. Ride a mile in someone elses' shoes before making such broad statements. Cheers.

  33. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenPsz View Post
    You mean doing the job they are paid to do would be a burden???

    I don't get people like you that seem to crave rules and control.

    Don't be a douch bag and a e-bike is no different than any other mountain bike on the trail.
    Uhh, going to start with, Bikes don't have motors. Sure you can quote some DOT reg saying otherwise. Or some areas of CA. They have a motor. Ya know, motorized. Not going to debate semantics or such with you. DOT rules pertain to hiway regs, not offroad multi use trails. Read up on some regs, state, local, BLM, USFS. And such.

  34. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenPsz View Post
    Klurejr's assessment would be wrong, but feel free to run with it.

    Like it or not mountain bikers are not going to be "left out of it" because non-biking trail users don't see the distinction they see a bike. Many a hiker have a hatred of mountain bikers so bikers throwing their own under the bus isn't going to get you bikers any more love from hikers.



    You post absolutes and there is nothing absolute about trail advocacy. Well, except for mountain bikers not doing advocacy work for e-motorbikes.
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  35. #135
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    You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to life behind bars again.
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  36. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenPsz View Post
    Simple statement not sure what is hard to understand.

    2) No motorized bikes should not be banned

    Was the lack of proper grammar the issue, if so I hope the above clears up the confusion.
    FYI, double negative, cancels out. So you are saying "motorized bikes should be banned".
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  37. #137
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    This thread really contrasts the level of empathy of the video's maker, and critics here.

    One empathizes for fellow man. Others "empathize" for personal ideals, claiming it's the best interest of the majority.
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  38. #138
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    Look I am going to play devils advocate and see if we can compromise.

    I get the concern that "ebikes" may cause issues, but what would you say if it was geared strictly to low end torque and not exceed 10 mph?
    Maybe a "permit" tag to utilize it on specific trails?

    I understand that it would be difficult to overcome, but I think a bit of accountability of individual ebikers would "help prevent" all trail users from being lumped together.

    But that is my opinion.

  39. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenPsz View Post
    Oh yes I hate those stupid animals, I am not afraid to say that at all.

    Sorry "costs" should've been "coasts" my bad.

    I'm glad you live in a mountain bike destination (so fancy), fair enough but your views should not be shaping what happens in my area and vice versa.
    I don’t live on the coast. I live in the mountains. They’re not particularly fancy, but they are really cool.


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  40. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenPsz View Post
    Simple statement not sure what is hard to understand.

    1) We can do this dance over and over again - references our exchanges
    2) No motorized bikes should not be banned
    3) Only douch bags (of all types) should be banned.
    4) Since like the video shows you can be a e-bikder and not a douch bag.

    Was the lack of proper grammar the issue, if so I hope the above clears up the confusion.
    Yes, largely it’s the poor grammar. Your new version just puts numbers in front of the poorly worded mumbo jumbo, but I think I can cipher it.


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  41. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenPsz View Post
    You mean doing the job they are paid to do would be a burden???

    I don't get people like you that seem to crave rules and control.

    Don't be a douch bag and a e-bike is no different than any other mountain bike on the trail.
    They’re overworked and understaffed. I don’t think measuring the output of an electric motor is something they need to add to the mix. So, because I don’t think motorized vehicles should be allowed where motorized vehicles aren’t allowed, I somehow “crave rules and control”? What’s that all about? So following your line of debate, should gas powered motor bikes be allowed? What about cars? Axe wielding murderers ok? Raping and pillaging is cool too? Do tell.


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  42. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by richj8990 View Post

    The watt limit should be set by both trail impact and any hiker/pet walker/normal cyclist complaints. Other than those two issues, what exactly is the problem?

    No problem, I just think that in many cases the watt limit should be zero.


    Quote Originally Posted by richj8990 View Post
    I agree that mountain biking should be the whole enchilada including climbing, but JB what do you think of downhill riders that use ski lifts to get to the top? Do they love everything about mountain biking?

    You'd have to ask them, if they don't like climbing then they don't like everything about mountain biking. I don't like everything about mountain biking either, not a big fan of bike maintenance.
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  43. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by richj8990 View Post
    I agree that mountain biking should be the whole enchilada including climbing, but JB what do you think of downhill riders that use ski lifts to get to the top? Do they love everything about mountain biking?
    The 'whole enchilada' including only the stuff YOU like to do?

    I personally spend almost zero time in the air (due to lack of skill).
    Jumping is definitely part of mountain biking, as is trials-type riding, as is DH lift serviced riding, as is multi-day bikepacking, as is riding in snow, as is slopestyle/stunt type riding...etc, etc, etc...

    So for the people that don't take part in each and every one of those, they obviously don't love everything about mountain biking either, right?
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  44. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by ninjichor View Post
    This thread really contrasts the level of empathy of the video's maker, and critics here.

    One empathizes for fellow man. Others "empathize" for personal ideals, claiming it's the best interest of the majority.
    Empathy for Greg? He's not handicapped or limited in any way. Just too lazy, weak and/or tired to climb is all, which is fine. I garners no empathy from me, though.
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  45. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by leeboh View Post
    Lift ticket and private resorts most of the time? Any hikers, dog walkers or horses on those one way trails? Don't think so. My point is that on downhill trails, the bikers are the only ones there, and they bought a ticket. The analogy doesn't work. XC skiers hate on the downhill skiers? Not.
    I'm gonna use this the next time I meet with my cousin's fiance, that was the answer I needed when he provided the snowboarder analogy. Thanks Leeboh!
    I don't know why,... it's just MUSS easier to pedal than the other ones.

  46. #146
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    I see the word "hate" being improperly used to describe other users who are concerned about trail access.

    Perhaps if users stop mistakenly describe others as haters the tone would lighten up a bit?

    Remember, no one can hear your inflection through written words on a forum.

    Also blindly stating that eBikes will not threaten access as a blanket statement will never win any arguments because it is a lie. No one here can say for a certainty that they will or will not get banned or cause issues for the pedal bike access.

    Please try to be more reasonable with your posts and ideas of the future. Many users here are very active in land management in the places they live and have great experience.
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  47. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    I see the word "hate" being improperly used to describe other users who are concerned about trail access.

    Perhaps if users stop mistakenly describe others as haters the tone would lighten up a bit?

    Remember, no one can hear your inflection through written words on a forum.

    Also blindly stating that eBikes will not threaten access as a blanket statement will never win any arguments because it is a lie. No one here can say for a certainty that they will or will not get banned or cause issues for the pedal bike access.

    Please try to be more reasonable with your posts and ideas of the future. Many users here are very active in land management in the places they live and have great experience.
    Even though you make valid points just look at the beginning of this thread.

    I posted a link to a video with what I view as good points to why a e-bike is a good option.

    Within 4 posts negative posts were done by those that dislike/hate e-bikes. By post 9 the original topic of the thread went down the tubes and the thread became the standard back and forth about e-bikes, trails, lazy riders, blanket statements that e-bikes will get trails closed and on and on.

    There might be users here very active in land management but if their idea of a discussion is "keep your e-bike off my trails!", that is not an attitude that makes for a productive discussion.

    So the negativity swings both ways.

  48. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenPsz View Post
    But boy is it fun to pass the guy on the $5000 road bike. Passing at 15 mph going up hill then hearing them try to keep up is funny.



    The fact that you find that funny is telling.
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  49. #149
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    Here's what I don't get, ebike advocates think it's wrong if they're restricted from bike trails. Ebike advocates say that it's the rider, not the bike that's responsible for user conflicts. Ebike advocates say that the trail, not the amount of available power dictates speed.

    Them why do ebike enthusiasts advocate for power limits? And how would they argue against another group or individual who thinks the limit should be higher?


    And why only pedal assist?
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  50. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    The fact that you find that funny is telling.
    Telling how? Are you jealous??

    How is that any different than someone that will pay 5K for a bike to loose a few pounds to climb faster?

    I just happened to spend less on superior technology than the road rider that spend 5K on a road bike.

  51. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Here's what I don't get, ebike advocates think it's wrong if they're restricted from bike trails. Ebike advocates say that it's the rider, not the bike that's responsible for user conflicts. Ebike advocates say that the trail, not the amount of available power dictates speed.

    Them why do ebike enthusiasts advocate for power limits? And how would they argue against another group or individual who thinks the limit should be higher?


    And why only pedal assist?
    To try and find a common ground with people like you that is why.

    But you and others have a very "get off my lawn" attitude that is going to ridden over by technology if you like it or not.

  52. #152
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    That video does not give a "good" reason for that guy to get an e-bike, simple as that, dude is lazy/doesn't prioritize riding his MTB to gain fitness like his friend and that's fine, just don't claim that's a good reason for wanting a motor. If his friend can't wait on him, then he should learn (rode more) to HTFU or find other slow riders (climbers) to ride with or go to a bike park and use the lifts.

    Quote Originally Posted by KenPsz View Post
    Even though you make valid points just look at the beginning of this thread.

    I posted a link to a video with what I view as good points to why a e-bike is a good option.

    Within 4 posts negative posts were done by those that dislike/hate e-bikes. By post 9 the original topic of the thread went down the tubes and the thread became the standard back and forth about e-bikes, trails, lazy riders, blanket statements that e-bikes will get trails closed and on and on.

    There might be users here very active in land management but if their idea of a discussion is "keep your e-bike off my trails!", that is not an attitude that makes for a productive discussion.

    So the negativity swings both ways.
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  53. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by LyNx View Post
    That video does not give a "good" reason for that guy to get an e-bike, simple as that, dude is lazy/doesn't prioritize riding his MTB to gain fitness like his friend and that's fine, just don't claim that's a good reason for wanting a motor. If his friend can't wait on him, then he should learn (rode more) to HTFU or find other slow riders (climbers) to ride with or go to a bike park and use the lifts.
    Good to see the bike elitist attitude is not dead.

    God forbid that two friends that want to ride together more find a way to do so that does not meet the approval of the bike elitists.

  54. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenPsz View Post
    Telling how? Are you jealous??

    Sounds like the other way around to me.

    People who buy 5k bikes train hard so they can climb faster, the bike can make a small difference but mostly it's just a tool.

    I pass slower people with less power than me all the time and never find it funny, if anything I'll give a friendly hello or word of encouragement.

    It just seems a little weird, if not slightly pathetic to get a chuckle out of passing a cyclist while riding a motorbike.
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  55. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenPsz View Post
    To try and find a common ground with people like you that is why.

    But you and others have a very "get off my lawn" attitude that is going to ridden over by technology if you like it or not.
    So find common ground or " e bikes will just happen?" Umm, sure, good luck with that. Really. As said, it's how the current laws on the books stand today. Clicking your heels three times and " just because technology" will do what? Help the e bikes? Guessing not. Mt bikers have done 3 decades of advocacy, trail work and building bridges, e bikes need to do their own work. It's just like a mt bike( plus a motor) won't fly. As seen here from across the US.

  56. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenPsz View Post
    Good to see the bike elitist attitude is not dead.
    There is definitely a lot of elitism on display here. It's pretty typical across of MTBR in a lot of places actually - you get a lot of dedicated XC dorks that look down on sort of riding beyond EXACTLY what they do, and think that somehow their narrow little idea of what riding a bike should be is the only way to do it, and anyone that doesn't do it their way is somehow inferior (LyNx being an obvious example).

    I don't go thinking my idea of a fun leisure time activity makes me better than anyone else. I don't think it's any of my business to tell anyone else how they 'should' be spending their free time or disposable income. I could care less if I get passed by someone smoking a butt and sipping rum and coke out of their bottle while the crack a throttle. Has no bearing on my enjoyment. As long as the trails aren't being trashed by a user group that doesn't pull their weight as far as working on them and I'm not held responsible for the transgressions of a user group that I'm not part of, who cares?

    Of course, that's where e-bikes get into some murky water. Seems most e-bikers want ride the coat-tails of mountain bikers when it comes to advocacy and proving themselves as responsible trail users. Sorry, but as every reasonable e-bike proponent will admit, they are a new and unique user group, and as such, need to pave their own way. It's not fair to mountain bikers to try to saddle us with being responsible for e-bikes. Mountain bikes don't have motors; it's really as simple as that.
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  57. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Sounds like the other way around to me.

    People who buy 5k bikes train hard so they can climb faster, the bike can make a small difference but mostly it's just a tool.

    I pass slower people with less power than me all the time and never find it funny, if anything I'll give a friendly hello or word of encouragement.

    It just seems a little weird, if not slightly pathetic to get a chuckle out of passing a cyclist while riding a motorbike.
    Motorbike??? How dramatic. LOL!!!

    All kinds of people buy performance especially those in the burbs that have more money than time to ride. So spare me the "they train harder" B.S. so they need a 5K bike.

    The electric assist is just a tool to ride further and faster, no difference. Oh wait there is a difference the bike elitist want a difference since they have spent so much time and effort that can be overtaken by technology.

  58. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenPsz View Post

    The electric assist is just a tool to ride further and faster, no difference. .



    You actually believe this nonsense?
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  59. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    Of course, that's where e-bikes get into some murky water. Seems most e-bikers want ride the coat-tails of mountain bikers when it comes to advocacy and proving themselves as responsible trail users. Sorry, but as every reasonable e-bike proponent will admit, they are a new and unique user group, and as such, need to pave their own way. It's not fair to mountain bikers to try to saddle us with being responsible for e-bikes. Mountain bikes don't have motors; it's really as simple as that.
    I'm not arguing with your post just giving my opinion of this section of your post.

    To anyone outside of the mountain bike world there is little to no distinction between say my FS fatbike and a e-bike from 10 ft away they look the same. E-bike folks are going to ride the trails and it would be better for mountain bikers to embrace the technology and shape it's use instead of trying to say "not me" and distancing from it. Since again non-bikers are not going to see let alone give a rip about the distinction.

    I would bet many a e-biker comes from the existing biker ranks, as you get older you look for tech that can keep your previous performance level and enjoyment.

  60. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    You actually believe this nonsense?
    I can prove it

    Take 5 lbs off a bike and you can ride further and faster.
    Add 250 watts to a bike and you can ride further and faster

    in BOTH cases you have pedal.

    So your turn...

  61. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenPsz View Post
    I can prove it

    Take 5 lbs off a bike and you can ride further and faster.
    Add 250 watts to a bike and you can ride further and faster

    in BOTH cases you have pedal.

    So your turn...



    Do it without a motor because that's the core issue, then come back with results.
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  62. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    Do it without a motor because that's the core issue, then come back with results.
    Oh you mean play by your rules LOL!!!!!!

    No the core issue is you are OK with buying results using one technology but not another. Since I will guess two things

    1) You have a lot of time invested in your riding skills and the fact someone can buy fitness irks you
    2) You have never ridden a e-bike so what they are capable of and not capable of you really don't know.

  63. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenPsz View Post
    I'm not arguing with your post just giving my opinion of this section of your post.

    To anyone outside of the mountain bike world there is little to no distinction between say my FS fatbike and a e-bike from 10 ft away they look the same. E-bike folks are going to ride the trails and it would be better for mountain bikers to embrace the technology and shape it's use instead of trying to say "not me" and distancing from it. Since again non-bikers are not going to see let alone give a rip about the distinction.

    I would bet many a e-biker comes from the existing biker ranks, as you get older you look for tech that can keep your previous performance level and enjoyment.
    I really don't care where they come from, and you're being wildly presumptuous as far thinking getting older automatically means everyone is going to start trying to shop their way into making everything easier. I turned 51 a couple weeks back, my dad will be 75 soon. Neither of us is dying to strap motors on our bicycles, thanks.

    As far people outside the MTB world not being able to tell the difference, I also don't care. You know who DOES know there's a difference? Land managers. Their opinion, which I actually do care about, is really the only one that matters.

    This is something many e-bikers don't seem to grasp. Dunno why you guys waste your time trying to convince rank and file mountain bikers to have group hugs with you; we don't write the rules. Take your arguments to those that actually make decisions and see how it goes. Any many cases, that is when you'll learn precisely why most mountain bikers with any knowledge and experience re: advocacy wisely treat e-bikes like a hot potato. We've been through enough trying to get human-powered bike access to where it is today. None of us are interested in having to go back and do it again with the whole "red line" of motors now being in the picture. Ya'll need to go fight your own battles with them and leave mountain bikes and bikers out of it.

    I'm perfectly happy to share trails with e-bikes. What I'm not interested in is having to sit in stuffy meeting rooms for hour upon hour and fight for them.
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  64. #164
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    The same people are comment back and forth with little being gained, so you guys have fun with the thread. I'm going to go and ride my fatbike in the snow having fun and saving my pennies for a mid drive.

    Happy trails

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    Quote Originally Posted by KenPsz View Post
    The same people are comment back and forth with little being gained, so you guys have fun with the thread. I'm going to go and ride my fatbike in the snow having fun and saving my pennies for a mid drive.

    Happy trails
    Later.

  66. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenPsz View Post
    The same people are comment back and forth
    Says the guy with the most posts in the thread...sounds to me like you've reached a point where you may just have to admit that there are actually solid points made that don't agree with your stance.

    Only one thing left to do!

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  67. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crankout View Post
    Empathy for Greg? He's not handicapped or limited in any way. Just too lazy, weak and/or tired to climb is all, which is fine. I garners no empathy from me, though.
    Empathy for anyone who doesn't have cycling legs. Could be your GF/wife, children, relative, friend, co-worker, neighbor, community member, etc. The point of the vid was that an ebike enabled people with a fitness gap to ride with one who spent far more time training up their cycling legs.

    I get the impression that people in this thread view e-bikers (e-mtbers) as the new wave of shuttlers, coming en masse, not only poaching illegal trails, but also violating a no-motorized-vehicle rule. They come to "shred" and do outlaw-type stuff, terrorizing "legit" trail users. Legit is in quotes, because I suspect they have no right to judge due to not following what they preach, littering, taking short cuts, and making other questionable actions/decisions due to being being lazy, weak, tired, etc. I'm going to point out that human nature that makes you feel good to find people who you can judge to be below you, so your position doesn't seem as bad... you can be bad, but if you find someone worse, you can fix up your self-esteem and claim you are average. xD

    I just simply view ebikes as way too expensive to be adopted on a large enough scale to be a problem. Don't people usually have to work their way up to their price points, replacing old bikes with newer more expensive bikes, perhaps to assisst or make up for something they lack? I'm more worried about the junk ebikes and mod-based ones, which lack refinement. There's that one story about the guy who burned down his parent's house with a DIY/kit battery for a bike.

    I also view cycling fitness as being niche, as the fitness don't really make you fit at anything else, like swimming or running. Running helps with out-of-the-saddle pedaling. If I didn't sit so much, maybe my cycling would help my running. That's one reason why I'm looking positively at very steep STAs, wondering how far it can go, like the 81d STA on the Pole Stamina. Sitting and pedaling with such a relaxed seat angle helps with what else? Heck, people claim notice a drop in power/efficiency moving up a mere 2 degrees steeper in seat angle, showing how specific such fitness is. That and it fades so fast, if you take a short break. So much time used just to maintain it, and even more to build upon it, for what purpose? In order to have fun with your riding at higher speeds, and have higher self-esteem/ego?

    I have faith that the trail access concerns can be fought, merely by arguing that ebikes offer great potential against bigger problems like obesity and pollution from cars. Regular cycling would be better, but the fitness barrier keeps it from being adopted, judging by the people who shuttle their bikes with motor vehicles (even lazier than ebikes), not only to cut out a climb, but cut out the entire distance from their house to the trailhead. I've suggested to people to park a mile away from the trailhead (or a mile away from work) as a compromise, but, while they say they are willing to try, human nature just seems to give in to existing habits and convenience...
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  68. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenPsz View Post
    Motorbike??? How dramatic. LOL!!!

    That's what it is, why is that funny? Low powered pedal assist motorbike (ebike) if you prefer.


    Upgrading to a more expensive bike will only produce margional gains, no one suddenly starts dusting people on climbs who used to be faster than them just because they bought a $5,000 bike. Unless it's an ebike. Anyone who rides much at all knows that.
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    Funny, I see the "back and forth".

    I believe what we have here is an all or nothing debate.

    I personally have no dog in this fight.

    But I am a pragmatic a$$#ole.

    So here is my take.

    Many individuals will abuse loopholes.

    And individuals judge groups by the lowest common denominator.

    So, here is what I suggest you do.

    Create an association, and work with manufacturers of ebikes and set some acceptable limits on the bikes.

    Then work with the land managers and find middle ground.

    Some limits on the ebikes I would ask for:
    Limit speed to 10mph
    Limit battery capacity

    Limits on which trails an ebike is allowed
    Can not be used on trails with 5% or less grade hills.

    And an inspection permit (yearly).


    I believe that will be a fair start.

    Allow honest ebikers and other riders to have some ability to police trails and riders accordingly.

  70. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenPsz View Post
    1) You have a lot of time invested in your riding skills and the fact someone can buy fitness irks you
    2) You have never ridden a e-bike so what they are capable of and not capable of you really don't know.
    I get that you're irked by the responses in this thread, but the only way to "buy" fitness and skills on a bike is to pedal and ride it.
    I don't know why,... it's just MUSS easier to pedal than the other ones.

  71. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Here's what I don't get, ebike advocates think it's wrong if they're restricted from bike trails. Ebike advocates say that it's the rider, not the bike that's responsible for user conflicts. Ebike advocates say that the trail, not the amount of available power dictates speed.

    Them why do ebike enthusiasts advocate for power limits? And how would they argue against another group or individual who thinks the limit should be higher?


    And why only pedal assist?


    Well, to answer that, we all first have to agree on whether an e-bike is a bicycle or a motorcycle. If someone has been bicycling for a long time, and something radically different comes out, I don't really blame them for being biased against an e-bike. But they should take a step back for a moment and pretend they don't bike, and look at a normal mountain bike, an e-bike, and a dirt bike together and see which two are more similar to each other than the third bike. I find it amusing that someone that doesn't even bike will immediately see that the mountain bike and the e-bike are much, much more similar to each other than the dirt bike. It's immediately obvious to the average person, but it's not obvious to a veteran mountain biker, because an e-bike is so different from other bikes within their own little world. If you stepped out of the mountain biking world for a moment, you'd see things much clearer from a different perspective. I don't blame mountain biking veterans for not seeing this issue from a different perspective. This kind of thing happens all the time in all kinds of situations. I've had some friendships and relationships in the past that I thought were OK, and then when they were over, when I could finally step outside them and look at them from the outside, I realized that they sucked all along. When you are in the middle of something, and have dedicated a lot of time and effort to that something, it's not easy to take a step back and look at the situation in a dispassionate and purely analytical way.

    If e-bikes tore up trails like dirtbikes, ATV's, Jeeps, and trucks did, then I would agree that they should not be on trails. I would agree 100% to that. But they don't. All they do is (usually) go faster than normal bikes. That pisses some people off. If some Corvette blew away my 21-year old car off the line at a stop sign, you really think I'm going to try and ban Corvettes from street surfaces? Of course not. If everyone kept their ego in check we would not be having these fights.

    As far as user conflicts are concerned, everyone should be polite no matter what they are riding. The few obnoxious e-bike riders are ruining it for the rest of us, and in turn for the normal mountain bikers. Don't flaunt your e-power towards a normal mountain bike rider, that helps nothing. Be humble and friendly to everyone, fellow bikers, hikers, dog walkers, families, everyone. It's stupid to flaunt e-bike power; anyone can ramp up the pedal assist or twist a throttle, there is no talent to that. I have a very positive feeling that as e-bikes grow in popularity, the trail access situation will actually get better, not worse, because everyone on the trail, biking or not, will get accustomed to seeing them, and will realize that they are not a loud, polluting, destructive threat compared to dirt bikes or ATV's. They will be just another bike out there, going a little bit faster. But the e-bike riders still need to be polite to everyone and not show off their speed. Plenty of time and space to do that alone out there. E-bike acceptance is dependent on the rider being polite and practicing proper trail etiquette.
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  72. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk258 View Post
    Limit speed to 10mph

    Who would buy one?
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  73. #173
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    @rich-. it's an ebike, not a bicycle or a motorcycle.
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  74. #174
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    People with bad knees that still want to ride, or other "limiting medical issue" that would prevent them from enjoying the steeper trails.

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    Quote Originally Posted by richj8990 View Post
    Well, to answer that, we all first have to agree on whether an e-bike is a bicycle or a motorcycle. If someone has been bicycling for a long time, and something radically different comes out, I don't really blame them for being biased against an e-bike. But they should take a step back for a moment and pretend they don't bike, and look at a normal mountain bike, an e-bike, and a dirt bike together and see which two are more similar to each other than the third bike. I find it amusing that someone that doesn't even bike will immediately see that the mountain bike and the e-bike are much, much more similar to each other than the dirt bike. It's immediately obvious to the average person, but it's not obvious to a veteran mountain biker, because an e-bike is so different from other bikes within their own little world. If you stepped out of the mountain biking world for a moment, you'd see things much clearer from a different perspective. I don't blame mountain biking veterans for not seeing this issue from a different perspective. This kind of thing happens all the time in all kinds of situations. I've had some friendships and relationships in the past that I thought were OK, and then when they were over, when I could finally step outside them and look at them from the outside, I realized that they sucked all along. When you are in the middle of something, and have dedicated a lot of time and effort to that something, it's not easy to take a step back and look at the situation in a dispassionate and purely analytical way.

    If e-bikes tore up trails like dirtbikes, ATV's, Jeeps, and trucks did, then I would agree that they should not be on trails. I would agree 100% to that. But they don't. All they do is (usually) go faster than normal bikes. That pisses some people off. If some Corvette blew away my 21-year old car off the line at a stop sign, you really think I'm going to try and ban Corvettes from street surfaces? Of course not. If everyone kept their ego in check we would not be having these fights.

    As far as user conflicts are concerned, everyone should be polite no matter what they are riding. The few obnoxious e-bike riders are ruining it for the rest of us, and in turn for the normal mountain bikers. Don't flaunt your e-power towards a normal mountain bike rider, that helps nothing. Be humble and friendly to everyone, fellow bikers, hikers, dog walkers, families, everyone. It's stupid to flaunt e-bike power; anyone can ramp up the pedal assist or twist a throttle, there is no talent to that. I have a very positive feeling that as e-bikes grow in popularity, the trail access situation will actually get better, not worse, because everyone on the trail, biking or not, will get accustomed to seeing them, and will realize that they are not a loud, polluting, destructive threat compared to dirt bikes or ATV's. They will be just another bike out there, going a little bit faster. But the e-bike riders still need to be polite to everyone and not show off their speed. Plenty of time and space to do that alone out there. E-bike acceptance is dependent on the rider being polite and practicing proper trail etiquette.

    I think we can classify an ebike as a "scooter" or moped.

    is limited to 35 mph or less and not designed to operate on the freeway.

  76. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    @rich-. it's an ebike, not a bicycle or a motorcycle.
    Precisely.
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  77. #177
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    In fact I believe that ebike owners are being given alot of leniency.

    They are not required to have turn signals or stop indicators or a speedometer.

    Which personally I believe should be required for road use.

  78. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk258 View Post
    People with bad knees that still want to ride, or other "limiting medical issue" that would prevent them from enjoying the steeper trails.



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  79. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    Aging out is inevitable.
    Bad knees isn't necessarily age related. A bad knee or a knee injury can happen any time and there are many levels of injury.

    And admittedly I wouldn't want to be told it's all or nothing either.

    I am "open" to limited ebike use, with specific limitations.

    Speed, limited to specific trails and a tagging fee.

    Which I believe is fair.

    While I agree ebikes do have the capacity to do more damage to the trails, the limits I proposed and tagging would assist in limiting the additional damage and provide funds to help deal with the damage.

  80. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenPsz View Post
    The same people are comment back and forth with little being gained, so you guys have fun with the thread. I'm going to go and ride my fatbike in the snow having fun and saving my pennies for a mid drive.

    Happy trails
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  81. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk258 View Post
    Bad knees isn't necessarily age related. A bad knee or a knee injury can happen any time and there are many levels of injury.

    And admittedly I wouldn't want to be told it's all or nothing either.

    I am "open" to limited ebike use, with specific limitations.

    Speed, limited to specific trails and a tagging fee.

    Which I believe is fair.

    While I agree ebikes do have the capacity to do more damage to the trails, the limits I proposed and tagging would assist in limiting the additional damage and provide funds to help deal with the damage.




    Banning them outright limits the damage as well.
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  82. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenPsz View Post
    Good to see the bike elitist attitude is not dead.

    God forbid that two friends that want to ride together more find a way to do so that does not meet the approval of the bike elitists.
    So how far do we take this? Remove those pesky rocks that someone may not have the skills to ride, you know, so they can ride with their more skilled friend? Heck, let's pave all the trails, that will make it easier for everyone to ride with their friends. Let's build stairs/ladders into the rock faces so we can all go rock climbing. Some people can't swim; drain the lakes, rivers and ponds so they aren't so deep! Let's make the holes on golf courses 4' diameter, bet I could putt into that with my golf playing coworkers. I suck at basketball, can we lower all the goals to 7ft and make the hoops bigger?

    Yes, if you pass me on an ebike, I very well may try to catch you. Not because I think I can, I have no delusions that I can outrun a vehicle with a motor. But when ride, I may speed up if someone catches me or I may speed up to catch a runner; if I'm running I may speed up to catch a bike; I've sped up when I've found myself amongst a high school cross country team and a group of Rangers. I've passed guys on triathlon bikes on my fixed gear bike and I've also been passed by guys on mountain bikes when riding my road bike. I just use it all as motivation to push myself. I keep in mind that the other people may be doing way more distance than I am so they are going at a slower pace, or they just like a slower pace or they may be finishing or a million other reasons. It's not a race. So if you pass me with a motor, no ego problems on my end.
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  83. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenPsz View Post
    Good to see the bike elitist attitude is not dead.

    God forbid that two friends that want to ride together more find a way to do so that does not meet the approval of the bike elitists.

    God forbid that two friends that want to ride together more won't, because one doesn't want to wait for the other. I'm always puzzled by how not waiting for, or not causing someone else to wait for a couple of minutes on a climb is somehow a significant enough issue to justify changing DOT laws to allow users to use a motorized vehicle on a non motorized trail. I've been riding mtbs for over 30 years, sometimes I have to wait for friends, more usually, they wait for me. It's fine, it's a social sport.

    I can't wait for trail runners to start lobbying for jet packs since they're tired of their running partners having to wait for them.

  84. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post
    God forbid that two friends that want to ride together more won't, because one doesn't want to wait for the other. I'm always puzzled by how not waiting for, or not causing someone else to wait for a couple of minutes on a climb is somehow a significant enough issue to justify changing DOT laws to allow users to use a motorized vehicle on a non motorized trail. I've been riding mtbs for over 30 years, sometimes I have to wait for friends, more usually, they wait for me. It's fine, it's a social sport.

    I can't wait for trail runners to start lobbying for jet packs since they're tired of their running partners having to wait for them.
    My friends always wait for me at the top of the climbs because I have a 38lb passenger on my bike when I ride these days.
    I also have a tear in my aorta and am on enough BP medication I cannot get my Heart Rate above 145bmp when riding, it is physically impossible.

    I am the perfect candidate for an eBike according to many people out there, but I am not going to get one. There is a bigger sense of personal accomplishment for me when I get to the top.

    I also don't care if someone else decides to ride an eBike legally and get to the top faster than me. Mountain Biking is a different sport than eBiking.
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  85. #185
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    That's because you've never really got fit riding, that's all. I consider the response from friends and other people (they were not impressed I could do that time when I never run and they all train hard) the first time I decided to run a 5k the day after placing in an MTB race and finishing just sub 25 minutes, having never run any form of running race before or do any form of running and that was with an about 4 minute stop to P. But yeah, doesn't transfer well at all

    Quote Originally Posted by ninjichor
    I also view cycling fitness as being niche, as the fitness don't really make you fit at anything else, like swimming or running. Running helps with out-of-the-saddle pedaling. If I didn't sit so much, maybe my cycling would help my running. That's one reason why I'm looking positively at very steep STAs, wondering how far it can go, like the 81d STA on the Pole Stamina. Sitting and pedaling with such a relaxed seat angle helps with what else? Heck, people claim notice a drop in power/efficiency moving up a mere 2 degrees steeper in seat angle, showing how specific such fitness is. That and it fades so fast, if you take a short break. So much time used just to maintain it, and even more to build upon it, for what purpose? In order to have fun with your riding at higher speeds, and have higher self-esteem/ego?
    One day your life will flash before your eyes, will it be worth watching??

  86. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    Banning them outright limits the damage as well.
    And inappropriate in my opinion.

    I believe there is room to compromise.

    For 2 reasons.

    That argument is fuel for the extreme environmentalists to say if you agree that banning ebikes is fine then let's ban all recreational activities in the mountains.

    The other is

    Mountain biking is financial drag on national forest revenue which Ebiking could contribute to funding trail maintenance.

  87. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk258 View Post
    And inappropriate in my opinion.

    I believe there is room to compromise.

    For 2 reasons.

    That argument is fuel for the extreme environmentalists to say if you agree that banning ebikes is fine then let's ban all recreational activities in the mountains.

    The other is

    Mountain biking is financial drag on national forest revenue which Ebiking could contribute to funding trail maintenance.




    Exclusions are part and parcel of advocacy and land use. I've yet to see an E-motorbiker at a trail day and further more do not see how having an electric motor is going to contribute to trail funding. Having an electric motor could and will lead to the loss of some trails and entire trail networks though. You really should become more aware of the nuances of what it really takes to get access in the first place, fund and build trail in the second, and then manage to keep it. E-motorbikers could always advocate for their own trails too.
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  88. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    Exclusions are part and parcel of advocacy and land use. I've yet to see an E-motorbiker at a trail day and further more do not see how having an electric motor is going to contribute to trail funding. Having an electric motor could and will lead to the loss of some trails and entire trail networks though. You really should become more aware of the nuances of what it really takes to get access in the first place, fund and build trail in the second, and then manage to keep it. E-motorbikers could always advocate for their own trails too.
    By having a usage tag and fee and limited to specific trails and speed limits.

    5% grade trails or greater and can't exceed 10 mph.

  89. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk258 View Post
    By having a usage tag and fee and limited to specific trails and speed limits.

    5% grade trails or greater and can't exceed 10 mph.




    And who is going to pay for enforcement?
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  90. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    And who is going to pay for enforcement?
    Well many riders have go pro cameras. And you can issue citizen citations.

    But that's part of the tagging process. 10mph limit on the mechanical drive.

  91. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by LyNx View Post
    That's because you've never really got fit riding, that's all. I consider the response from friends and other people (they were not impressed I could do that time when I never run and they all train hard) the first time I decided to run a 5k the day after placing in an MTB race and finishing just sub 25 minutes, having never run any form of running race before or do any form of running and that was with an about 4 minute stop to P. But yeah, doesn't transfer well at all
    Your 5k time correlates with non-disabled, non-overweight beginner results.

    When I was commuting by bike, co-workers would ask if I'd join their team for a run, since I had a fit looking body. My case is a bit different, as I'm not exactly sweating my ass off commuting, the normal duration/distance (8 mi in 30-35 min) makes any shorter distances seem like cake, and I ran long distance for the high school track team. I could do a 18-19 min 5k after maybe 2 weeks of training, since I had experience and muscle memory saying that pace was quite comfortable for me to hold. The training was just to ensure my legs can handle the impact and get comfortable with such range of motion again. I didn't find myself dying at the finish like my co-workers; I had the cardio and will, but not the legs.

    I dunno why you get the impression that such a time is a result of cycling fitness. I also don't consider back-to-back races considerably taxing. People in my area race XC/SuperD one day (Saturday), and DH the next day (Sunday). Enduro stage races are split across multiple days too. Get a Tour de France racer, who didn't have a running background, to do a sub-17 min pace 5k, using their superior cycling fitness to beat my time. I suspect a climber could, but I'd expect someone who plants their ass in the saddle for hours at a time at a comfortable pace to do possibly worse, considering the lack of running experience. I wouldn't be surprised if a pro cyclocross rider gets a sub-17 min 5k.

    Triathlon bikes do have considerably steeper seat angles too. 77ish on many, with seatposts to adjust that. Some controversy regarding old advice saying "steeper is better", but I'd like to explore this more to see if there is merit behind the idea of tuning STA to work the same muscle groups that running uses.
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  92. #192
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    Looking at the video and a blog I read made an interesting point. E-Bikes aren't really an issue until someone in your group gets one. What happens when Paul wants to keep up with Brig on the climbs? He has to get an e-bike too.

    Same for the group dynamic, once one person gets one and does a sixty k loop instead of the normal twenty, how will that work?

  93. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mudguard View Post
    Looking at the video and a blog I read made an interesting point. E-Bikes aren't really an issue until someone in your group gets one. What happens when Paul wants to keep up with Brig on the climbs? He has to get an e-bike too.

    Same for the group dynamic, once one person gets one and does a sixty k loop instead of the normal twenty, how will that work?
    That's where the 10 mph and 5% grade or higher with permit comes in.

  94. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by endurosquatch View Post
    Just when you’re thinking this thread can’t get any more ridiculous, this loon proves you wrong.
    How do you enforce littering?

    Or any other crime that happens on the trails?

  95. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by endurosquatch View Post
    I don’t enforce littering on the trails.

    The people that do handle crimes that happen on the trails don’t use gopros or citizen citations.

    You’re ridiculous.
    Well how do you expect to ban ebikes from trails then?

  96. #196
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    So... in otherwords it's legal until someone complains or stands there and enforces the rule...

    Just like every other law.

    Unless our peers keep others honest there is very little to do to prevent someone from doing what they want.

  97. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by richj8990 View Post
    Well, to answer that, we all first have to agree on whether an e-bike is a bicycle or a motorcycle. If someone has been bicycling for a long time, and something radically different comes out, I don't really blame them for being biased against an e-bike. But they should take a step back for a moment and pretend they don't bike, and look at a normal mountain bike, an e-bike, and a dirt bike together and see which two are more similar to each other than the third bike. I find it amusing that someone that doesn't even bike will immediately see that the mountain bike and the e-bike are much, much more similar to each other than the dirt bike..
    This is the point that many of us are trying to hammer home to you guys. THEY LOOK EXACTLY LIKE MOUNTAIN BIKES TO MOST PEOPLE ON THE TRAIL. They will just get faster and faster and look more like real bikes every year.
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  98. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by sfgiantsfan View Post
    This is the point that many of us are trying to hammer home to you guys. THEY LOOK EXACTLY LIKE MOUNTAIN BIKES TO MOST PEOPLE ON THE TRAIL. They will just get faster and faster and look more like real bikes every year.
    Which is why I would classify it as a moped. And why I am willing to offer a middle ground.

    Unlike some I see an opportunity to provide funding for trail management.

    But it also needs the group to keep people honest.

  99. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    "Brig loves everything about mountain biking" , quickly followed by "Brig hates climbing".
    Brig needs to tuffen the fv<k up!!!!!

    I also didnt watch that whole advertisment for ebikes, although they do mention that Brig knows how more pedalling will give him more access, nice how they tied that in.
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    Quote Originally Posted by richj8990 View Post
    It's funny how there is so much hate for e-bikes, but when you ask them exactly why, and any solid evidence for why they should be banned, there is a big pause, or a disorganized rant. I'm still waiting on someone to show the evidence for why they should be banned in a civilized and organized manner. Then and only then can there be a gentleman's debate. Until then, tribal mudslinging.
    You either aren't paying attention or are intentionally ignoring many, many well constructed posts explaining the issues of calling e-bikes bicycles.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk258 View Post
    Well many riders have go pro cameras. And you can issue citizen citations.

    But that's part of the tagging process. 10mph limit on the mechanical drive.
    So you're advocating for increased trail conflicts and the likelihood of physical altercations?

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