Former Trek Executive's Open Letter to Bike Industry About E-Bikes- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    Former Trek Executive's Open Letter to Bike Industry About E-Bikes

    https://www.vitalmtb.com/forums/The-...-E-Bikes,10793


    here is a discussion of some of the issues around ebikes and trail access and where ebikes could/are headed.

    so i linked it over here to get some discussion going.

    i assume its okay to discuss issues directly related to ebikes in the ebike forum?!


    MODERATOR EDIT:
    The OP put in a link to a forum, not to the blog itself, here is that link and the text copied and pasted here for review:
    https://goodheartsolutions.com/2019/...emtb-thoughts/


    This is going to be a little bit different article for me to write, as I have never written an open letter to the industry. I would guess that I am going to see a bunch of emotional comments at the bottom of this, in both directions, and that will be at least partially justified. But, nonetheless I feel that I have to put this down somewhere, so here goes.
    I think that the bicycle industry is half cocked on our position on electric mountain bikes. I say our position, because I have been part of the industry for a long time, and I would say that I even need to own some portion of the industry’s position. “They are much closer to bicycles, and should be regulated as such”, is the most common bicycle industry position. Unfortunately, that is way too shallow and not thoroughly vetted for all of the potential impacts (present and future) when it comes to offroad use.

    Let me start by saying, I am an advocate for ebikes. After a nearly 3 decade career at Trek bicycle and my consulting business, I have built/designed and promoted ebikes, I have advised companies and entities on ebikes, I have consulted with businesses to help them get ready for or promote ebikes, I have helped retailers understand and become part of the ebike community. I have owned ebikes, and will own them again in the future. I truly believe that ebikes are a good thing for the users, the communities that embrace them and of course the industry.

    Additionally, I actually think the industry has done a good job with advocacy and regulations around ebikes for ON ROAD use. My issue with the industry’s position is entirely in regards to offroad use.
    Let me also start by saying that I feel that the constant barrage of articles by pro-ebike representatives, attempting to convince the non believer cycling enthusiast that they should embrace ebikes, is completely pointless. It is completely pointless, because it just doesn’t matter. No amount of articles telling them that they are wrong or being narrow minded is going to change anyones mind. Haters are gonna hate – get over it. This whole issue is no different than skiers hating snowboarders, bow hunters hating crossbow hunters, rock-n-roll lovers hating country music enthusiasts etc… Some people are going to hate people that are different than they are, and arguing with them isn’t a solution. (Kinda reminds you of our current political leaders, and their followers, and the social media debates that rage, eh?) Constantly stirring the pot between the haters and the promoters, makes all of us in the cycling world seem like a bunch of bickering cry baby cyclists. It presents to the outside observer or land manager or legislator that we cyclists cannot even agree on what we want as a cycling group, and clouds our position with our real challenge in regards to eMTB.
    Our real challenges with eMTB are big and not easily solved by just saying “they are closer to bicycles…”.

    I am currently the Board President of the Chequamegon Area Mountain Bike Association (CAMBA). CAMBA is one of the largest trail networks in the midwest with over 120 miles of singletrack, 200+ miles of mapped gravel roads and 70 miles of winter groomed snowbike trails. We like to think of ourselves as an offroad mecca. CAMBA manages all of that infrastructure in Northern Wisconsin across 2 different County Forest systems, in a section of National Forest and on sections of private land. CAMBA is proud to have fostered a fantastic relationship with all of those land managers. The trails we have built and gravel routes that we have mapped are a hugely important economic driver in a part of the state with sparse population. We are in the middle of a year long economic impact study, but our early estimates are showing more than 15k visits to our trails. Our early estimates also show an all in year round impact to the community of well over $10m per year from MTB’s. In a community of just 5000 year round residents, the trails and MTB lifestyle are enormously important and a huge community economic asset.

    In my role with CAMBA, I have had the ebike conversation with our other board members, other trail groups, our land managers, government officials, private land owners and the membership of CAMBA. CAMBA has organized informational eMTB meetings as well as an ebike demo with those land managers and land owners.

    In other words, our trail group has taken direction from national advocacy organizations to have a healthy positive conversation with our land managers about eMTB, and created educational opportunities for everyone involved. Those conversations point out what the real issues/questions actually are in regards to eMTB. The industry insisting that eMTB be regulated as bicycles is not thoroughly vetted and potentially detrimental to MTB access in the long run. As far as I can tell from my chair, the cycling industry is not visibly addressing the majority of the real issues.



    If we want these signs to go away, we need to address the real problems with eMTB.In no certain order, what follows are the issues and questions that I believe are not being addressed by the industry. These are either direct questions asked by land managers that our trail advocacy group cannot answer, or a summary of issues eMTB on trails present:

    1.) Do eMTB’s do more damage to trails than regular analog pedal bikes? People for Bikes and other organizations point to an IMBA study that was done a few years ago, and present that as proof that eMTB do not do any more damage to trails than regular bikes. Unfortunately, one very controlled study doesn’t really answer this in a way that gives land managers assurance. Because the limited extent of data that the industry can provide, Land Managers are looking to their trusted partners – the trail advocacy groups – to help them understand this new entity. Of course we do not have information or data to present, so we are left with a concern on the part of the land manager that the trail group cannot answer.
    2.) What kind of trails are safe to mix pedal bikes and eMTB on the trails? What proof is there that the type of recommended trails that will be mixed, are actually safe to mix the different users on those trails? How do the sight lines need to be adjusted if there are users going at a high speed in both directions? When do trails need to be one way? As a trail group, we certainly do not have these answers, and it appears that the industry is not trying to answer these questions. But, representing a trail group I can assure you we do not have the funding to be building all one way trails. (I have been reminded more than once, that the ATV trails went through something similar when the business switched from a 38” wide ATV that would go 25mph, to a 54” UTV that will go 100mph)

    3.) Many trail groups have a history of asking land managers to allow the group to create separate trails from motorized user groups, from a safety and user experience POV. I know that is certainly a piece of CAMBA’s 25 year history. Now that same trail advocacy group is going back to those same land managers and trying to reason with them that this motorized user group (eMTB users) is ok. The industry needs to understand this history and understand that it is the trail advocacy group who is now spending their chips with land managers, not the bicycle companies. Risking that trust that has been built over time with land managers, is not something that an advocacy group will take lightly, nor should the industry.
    4.) Many trail groups have received public or private grants along the way, to build the trails they are managing. Sometimes, those grants were specific for building trails for non motorized use. Again, trail groups are now faced with going back to those same granting agencies and trying to justify that eMTB are ok. Remember, these grants are important funding mechanisms for the trails that all MTB riders use.

    5.) Class 1 ebikes in NA are too powerful and accelerate too fast when on the top boost setting, for some trails and certainly some users. If you hold an ebike demo on single track with forest service managers (who are not cyclists), you will quickly see this to be true. You will find yourself, as the demo manager, fearing that the demo riders will attempt the “turbo” setting. Inevitably they will use the higher settings, and they will come back terrified for the beginner cyclist on the trails and the liability situation with their land. This only reinforces the question in their mind that the trails may not have been built to handle eMTB.

    6.) There is no guarantee that the cycling industry will not upgrade the eMTB’s available to class 2 or 3 or something beyond that. There is no way for the trail advocacy groups or the Land Managers to enforce the rules if one of those entities decided to limit the trails to something like class 1. In fact, I would challenge anyone outside of the industry to be able to tell the difference between any of these classes of bikes at a glance. Land managers see this as a potential they will not be able to control once they open the doors to eMTB (remember they have seen this movie with ATV’s and UTV’s that will go 100mph). As a trail advocacy group, there is nothing that we can say to change this fear, because their fears are probably real that without some sort of official regulation, they will probably become faster and more powerful in the future.

    7.) The industry presents that ebikes will bring more people into cycling. I would love it if that is true, but I fear that inevitability at the same time. I do not know when the amount of use on our trails will put us over the tipping point for what can be managed. As an example, in our part of the country, building trails costs $3.5 – $7 per foot (depending on the ground make up, the topography and the type of trail being built). Our maintenance bill is about $1 per foot, every 3-4 years, when our trails need to be rehabbed. If we were to double our users on the trails, our overall trails budget would potentially need to double. In todays world, I do not know where that funding will come from or if it is sustainable.
    The risk is that we could lose trails if advocacy groups are no longer seen as positive stewards of the land because we cannot afford the maintenance costs.

    These are the top issues that our trail group has been able to identify. They may not be the only issues, but they seem to be the biggest issues.

    So what do I think the industry needs to do if they would like to move the issue of eMTB access forward?

    1.) There needs to be clear policy and regulations around ebikes usages and power outputs/speeds, that include eMTB and use on trails that are not governed by the DOT of a state, not just a voluntary class structure that manufacturers agree to follow. I know that organizations like PFB are pushing that those regulations become uniform across all 50 states, but as far as I know those regulations would only be voluntary for offroad use. I do not know how to do it, but there should be regulations that are compulsory for offroad use. Preferably, those regulations would be imposed at a level above state levels so that there is consistency from one trail network and one state to the next. That consistency will allow trail advocacy groups to speak with land managers and assure them that we are going to be responsible with their resources. From the POV of a trail advocacy group in the midwest, where our trails are tight and have restricted site lines and by nature are often times 2 way, we would also prefer that eMTB be officially limited to class 1 only.

    2.) There needs to be much more research and data on impact to trails, impact to other users on the trail and safety statistics of mixing digital eMTB and analog pedal MTB. We need multiple studies and data now. We need real data from the trails that are allowing eMTB already, to be able to present a convincing argument on these points to land managers. This is research and data that the industry has a responsibility to fund and to produce. This cannot be left to the trail groups. And if trails need to change, the industry needs to provide the funding to help define those changes as well as the funding for trail advocacy groups to do the work to update trails to those resulting standards.

    3.) Trail advocacy groups can do the work, and we will do the work on the trails. But, speaking for the advocacy community, we do not have the tools or resources without the industry’s help to raise the funding necessary to insure all of our continued access to land for trails. It is time for the Industry to work with states and the federal government to develop funding mechanisms to help with building and maintaining trails. When I look at my ATV or Snowmobile or Fishing or Hunting counterparts, I am jealous of the state money they can tap into to help maintain their trails. The MTB trail access world needs those same kind of funding mechanisms.

    Pay to play is a difficult concept for the MTB community, but other recreational groups have successfully made that leap. It is time that the industry move the needle on funding for trail access.

    4.) Stop showing eMTB shredding. In fact, statistically nobody shreds on a MTB (e or otherwise). The majority of riders will never get their wheels off the ground or hit a huge drop or bash through a berm. But of course the industry never tires of showing that as industry endorsed use of the bikes sold. Let’s be a little more responsible in our advertising and promotion and represent how the majority of use actually occurs. Take a look at the video below. I love a super steep descent as much as the next person, but do you think this is how we want the industry to be viewed by the rest of the world?

    5.) Stop denying that eMTB are motorized, they are. That does not mean that the Industry needs to allow eMTB to be lumped in with other motorized vehicles. To my understanding, a class 1 eMTB puts out a maximum of 750 watts (250 watts in Europe, but that is another discussion altogether). A small motorcycle puts out a maximum of as much as 10x that amount. Although the eMTB power is alot lower, it is still power provided by a motor. Let’s admit that an ebike has a motor and get over that aspect. The industry also needs to stop presenting that we are somehow better than motorized users, because we have to pedal to access that power. It is immaterial that a motorcycle does not have to be pedaled.



    It is a motor after all.The pedaling is not what will protect our trail access, it is the limited power that will protect trail access. Lets stop trying to say we are better than the motorized users because we still have to pedal, and let’s admit that we are using power as well but we are going to see that rules are put in place to always limit the amount of power that can be put out by an eMTB. This will go further than the pedaling vs throttle argument could ever go, to assure land managers. And, if we put rules in place that insure we are always limited to class 1 for vehicles that are classified as eMTB (vs. offroad motorcycles), we will be able to look land managers in the eye to assure them we are being responsible.

    Lastly I will go back to my very first point, we all need to stop worrying about convincing the haters to not be haters, it is not productive – and you can never win. So, more articles telling the ebike hater cyclist to just get over it and accept that some day their mother or they themselves will want/need one, or that more people on bikes is a good thing for many reasons, are just stirring that pot and actually counter productive to the real issues at hand.

    I do not mean to present that all of our problems will pass under the bridge if we make these changes. There is alot of hard work to be done to solve these issues, and then to make them reality in the MTB world, and I am sure there are more challenges out there. But, I do know that if the industry can act on the 5 points I have noted above, we will be way ahead of where we are now on this topic, and then we can all go back to worrying about the head tube and seat tube angles on our bikes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuse6F View Post
    https://www.vitalmtb.com/forums/The-...-E-Bikes,10793


    here is a discussion of some of the issues around ebikes and trail access and where ebikes could/are headed.

    so i linked it over here to get some discussion going.

    i assume its okay to discuss issues directly related to ebikes in the ebike forum?!
    You would be wrong.

    That dude is an idiot. Europeans are rightfully laughing at the weak minded Americans who need to overanalyze every little detail because deep down, we hate freedom.

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    Quote Originally Posted by figofspee View Post
    That dude is an idiot.

    Quote Originally Posted by RickBullottaPA View Post
    He's a moron



    Is everyone you guys disagree with morons and idiots? Seems like cordial discussions and productive debates are a lost art.
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Is everyone you guys disagree with morons and idiots? Seems like cordial discussions and productive debates are a lost art.
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Is everyone you guys disagree with morons and idiots? Seems like cordial discussions and productive debates are a lost art.
    That's weak JB

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    Quote Originally Posted by figofspee View Post
    That's weak JB
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    Quote Originally Posted by RickBullottaPA View Post
    When you purport to be an industry expert and you seem to be completely wrong about most factual aspects of your position, then yes - moron is an appropriate moniker.


    He never claimed to be an expert, just said he worked in the industry. You have facts to prove he's completely wrong?

    Evidently you think I'm a moron too even though you know almost nothing about me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    He never claimed to be an expert, just said he worked in the industry. You have facts to prove he's completely wrong?

    Evidently you think I'm a moron too even though you know almost nothing about me.

    I don't know anything. I'm not even a real person.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RickBullottaPA View Post
    Not at all - you seem well informed in your postings and positions in the threads I've interacted with you.


    Yet I agree with many of the points Mr. Vadeboncoeur brought up. How is he a moron and I'm not?

    btw I actually like a lot of things about ebikes and happily sell them but that doesn't mean I agree with the policies that guide them.
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Yet I agree with many of the points Mr. Vadeboncoeur brought up. How is he a moron and I'm not?

    btw I actually like a lot of things about ebikes and happily sell them but that doesn't mean I agree with the policies that guide them.
    OK, so let's take his points one by one.

    "Do eMTB’s do more damage to trails than regular analog pedal bikes". He seems to imply that they do, and in fact, they flat out do not. Zero evidence to indicate that they do. These aren't dirt bikes. I have both. No comparison.

    "What kind of trails are safe to mix pedal bikes and eMTB on the trails?" Simply put, a Cat 1 racer is as fast as a Class 1 eMTBer on virtually every trail, and faster on many of them. Should we ban Cat 1 racers? The motor isn't the limiting factor - handling is.

    "Many trail groups have a history of asking land managers to allow the group to create separate trails from motorized user groups, from a safety and user experience POV". And the US constitution used to prevent women from voting and granted minorities virtually no civil rights. Things change. We evolve, learn, and improve.

    "Many trail groups have received public or private grants along the way, to build the trails they are managing. Sometimes, those grants were specific for building trails for non motorized use". Same as the previous.

    "Class 1 ebikes in NA are too powerful and accelerate too fast when on the top boost setting". You can't legislate against stupidity. Regular MTBs accelerate fast when going downhill. Visit most bike parks over the summer and you'll see Darwin's theories in action on a regular basis.

    "There is no guarantee that the cycling industry will not upgrade the eMTB’s available to class 2 or 3 or something beyond that". True. And there's no guarantee they won't add hydrogen motors, onboard laser weapons, or four wheels. It just wouldn't be prudent or good business.

    "The industry presents that ebikes will bring more people into cycling." Arguments in this vein are largely elitist and "I was here first" BS. We have an obesity epidemic in this country. If this gets more people exercising, it is good public policy. We can build more trails - it's cheaper than building more hospitals.

    Anyway, we may agree to disagree. His background does warrant applying extra scrutiny and criticism to his positions.

    Maybe I'm just growing tired of the general ignorance and misguided anger towards eMTBs and lashing out a bit. So be it.

    If the rain here in eastern PA ever stops, I'll go for a ride to clear my head.

    Cheers.

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    I've got a Pivot 429T and just picked up Turbo Levo Expert. There is no way the eBike damages the trail more than the Pivot. If you watch about 5 mins of YouTube you can view regular bikes slamming berms, skidding before/through turns tossing dirt all over. That's a bit harder on the eBike due to the weight, it's just not as nimble. My point is, the rider, not the bike, is the issue.
    I'm a broken old 63 year old man and the Levo makes me smile like crazy when I ride it. Still ride both but the eBike has added some well needed stoke for me.

    I also do a fair amount of trail work and if the eBike damaged trails I would not have bought it. Around here, pets riders and hikers going off trail damage the trails a heck of a lot more than bikes for sure
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    I wanted to bring up what i felt was a subliminal message , if i can use that term.

    this is a business executive
    clearly stating that mtbers create economic benefits to his community
    that more and better trails draws more people and creates more money
    that his advocacy for creation of trails has no funding
    that this is a barrier to his community utilizing the resource to create more revenue
    that if we move/lobby to create an ohv registration system for mtb
    it would establish the advocacy group as a true business entity
    will he soon be creating a business that becomes state wide approved for creation of all trails
    would this business then move into other states
    Is this a pitch to mtb companies to get them interested in also getting into the game of monetizing trail access for the products they create
    does this become a monthly access fee just like a gym membership


    We are this close to being charged for accessing all trails everywhere.
    There would of course be fines for not paying.



    also, ebikers have to get off the high horse.

    Its a motorized vehicle!!! it has a motor!!!
    Last edited by Fuse6F; 6 Days Ago at 02:21 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by figofspee View Post
    Maybe I'm just growing tired of the general ignorance and misguided anger towards eMTBs and lashing out a bit. So be it.


    Yes, and I grow tired of the complete dismissal of any concerns against them and the inevitable ensuing name calling to anyone who voices them.
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    FORMER Trek Executive, I can see why he no longer works for Trek! His future vision is way off, but he has a right to his opinion. PB just did an interview with the owner of Santa Cruz bikes Rob, the last question asked was "Where do you see Santa Cruz ebikes in 5yrs? Answer 50% of our bikes will be ebikes. I heard Specialized will be there sooner, with more ebikes versus regular bikes. Every month, I see more and more acceptance of ebikes as well as ebikes on the trails. All it takes is one person in your group to get an ebike and it's all over for that group in most cases. Again, just my opinion!

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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbbiker View Post
    FORMER Trek Executive, I can see why he no longer works for Trek! His future vision is way off, but he has a right to his opinion. PB just did an interview with the owner of Santa Cruz bikes Rob, the last question asked was "Where do you see Santa Cruz ebikes in 5yrs? Answer 50% of our bikes will be ebikes. I heard Specialized will be there sooner, with more ebikes versus regular bikes. Every month, I see more and more acceptance of ebikes as well as ebikes on the trails. All it takes is one person in your group to get an ebike and it's all over for that group in most cases. Again, just my opinion!

    Hey when the chair lift goes out at the ski hill how many people do you see crawling up the hill. High end Analog bikes are done.

    whats left to debate is what defines an ebike. 240w 540w 1000w???

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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Yes, and I grow tired of the complete dismissal of any concerns against them and the inevitable ensuing name calling to anyone who voices them.
    Did you just dismiss my concerns?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuse6F View Post
    I see alot of middle finger responses.

    Its a motorized vehicle!!! it has a motor!!!
    It is a dirt bike too! It has suspension and rides on dirt! ;-)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuse6F View Post
    Hey when the chair lift goes out at the ski hill how many people do you see crawling up the hill. High end Analog bikes are done.

    whats left to debate is what defines an ebike. 240w 540w 1000w???
    Agreed with your message, except USA has already adopted what defines an ebike:
    All 3 classes are at or below 750 watts (1hp). If an bike is above that then they are only legal on private land or where motorized vehicles are allowed and are obviously not in any of the 3 classes.
    Class 1 pedal assist only, assisted top speed 20mph
    Class 2 pedal/throttle, assisted top speed 20mph
    Class 3 top assisted speed 28

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    Quote Originally Posted by RickBullottaPA View Post
    If the concerns were borne of fact, I would be more tolerant. 99.999% of the bashers have never ridden an eMTB, with someone on an eMTB, or done any real research on the topic...

    Many of the points you brought up in post #11 aren't borne of fact, just conjecture. The former Trek exec isn't a basher imo and neither am I. I've ridden lot's of e-bikes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Many of the points you brought up in post #11 aren't borne of fact, just conjecture. The former Trek exec isn't a basher imo and neither am I. I've ridden lot's of e-bikes.
    OK. We disagree. Peace out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RickBullottaPA View Post
    OK, so let's take his points one by one.

    "Do eMTB’s do more damage to trails than regular analog pedal bikes". He seems to imply that they do, and in fact, they flat out do not. Zero evidence to indicate that they do. These aren't dirt bikes. I have both. No comparison.

    "What kind of trails are safe to mix pedal bikes and eMTB on the trails?" Simply put, a Cat 1 racer is as fast as a Class 1 eMTBer on virtually every trail, and faster on many of them. Should we ban Cat 1 racers? The motor isn't the limiting factor - handling is.

    "Many trail groups have a history of asking land managers to allow the group to create separate trails from motorized user groups, from a safety and user experience POV". And the US constitution used to prevent women from voting and granted minorities virtually no civil rights. Things change. We evolve, learn, and improve.

    "Many trail groups have received public or private grants along the way, to build the trails they are managing. Sometimes, those grants were specific for building trails for non motorized use". Same as the previous.

    "Class 1 ebikes in NA are too powerful and accelerate too fast when on the top boost setting". You can't legislate against stupidity. Regular MTBs accelerate fast when going downhill. Visit most bike parks over the summer and you'll see Darwin's theories in action on a regular basis.

    "There is no guarantee that the cycling industry will not upgrade the eMTB’s available to class 2 or 3 or something beyond that". True. And there's no guarantee they won't add hydrogen motors, onboard laser weapons, or four wheels. It just wouldn't be prudent or good business.

    "The industry presents that ebikes will bring more people into cycling." Arguments in this vein are largely elitist and "I was here first" BS. We have an obesity epidemic in this country. If this gets more people exercising, it is good public policy. We can build more trails - it's cheaper than building more hospitals.

    Anyway, we may agree to disagree. His background does warrant applying extra scrutiny and criticism to his positions.

    Maybe I'm just growing tired of the general ignorance and misguided anger towards eMTBs and lashing out a bit. So be it.

    If the rain here in eastern PA ever stops, I'll go for a ride to clear my head.

    Cheers.
    +1 brother


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    Is someone considering legal, not every state has adopted the class laws mind you, eBikes to be OHV's? That's funny.
    A bike by any other name is still a bike.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigwheel View Post
    Is someone considering legal, not every state has adopted the class laws mind you, eBikes to be OHV's? That's funny.
    Which is precisely one of the things PFB is trying to accomplish, yet the author seems to criticize. Whatever.

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    All this arguing tells me if we were all out on an amazing epic trail ride together and had to pick a direction to get back home, we would either not get back or finish the ride together.

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    As someone who has had continuing discussions regarding ebikes and emtbs with my multiple local land managers over the last 5 years, ignoring the issues he raises only will reduce the chances you'll have the eventual emtb access you hope for.

    We're on an enthusiast bike forum, and with our blinders on, it's easy to only see emtbs as the ones we would buy, or already have out in the garage. And, the only riders we see will be like us, ride like us and want the same sort of experience.

    The reality is that unlike the EU, US ebike laws are vague, unenforced and unenforceable. It makes as much sense as trying to regulate dirt bikes using displacement. 125s and 250s are OK, 450s are not. There's no one to check, there's no one to stop you. The reality that if you allow one type of ebike, you're effectively allowing anything with an electric motor and pedals is starting to sink in around here.

    We're already seeing as many douchebags on high powered ebikes as we do as EUish spec ones, and they're the ones that are going to spoil it. There is a segment of the bike/moto population that are just figuring out the loopholes and once the equipment is more readily available, will be happy to exploit them.

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    ^another basher


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  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Is everyone you guys disagree with morons and idiots? Seems like cordial discussions and productive debates are a lost art.
    Quote Originally Posted by figofspee View Post
    That's weak JB

    ^see what I mean
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  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2wls4ever View Post
    All this arguing tells me if we were all out on an amazing epic trail ride together and had to pick a direction to get back home, we would either not get back or finish the ride together.
    Nah. Most of know how to separate the two. I'd carry J.B. Weld out on my back if he needed it and I'd ride with him and have beers with him in a heartbeat. We just disagree on what is obviously a very polarizing issue. Or maybe the shitty political climate we're in has everyone taking extreme positions on everything. But "in the real world" (read: not on the internet), the beauty of the MTB tribe is that love of the ride almost always brings us together.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by RickBullottaPA View Post
    Nah. Most of know how to separate the two. I'd carry J.B. Weld out on my back if he needed it and I'd ride with him and have beers with him in a heartbeat. We just disagree on what is obviously a very polarizing issue.


    Likewise. I've absolutely nothing against e-bikes or the people who ride them. I have friends who ride them. Who knows, maybe someday I'll own one. My disagreement is, and always has been with the policies that guide them, sort of like the former Trek rep.

    To many here that makes me a hater, a basher, and a fking idiot. So be it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post
    As someone who has had continuing discussions regarding ebikes and emtbs with my multiple local land managers over the last 5 years, ignoring the issues he raises only will reduce the chances you'll have the eventual emtb access you hope for.
    Bad arguments don't need to be continually addressed, people should simply stop making them.

    If you were to accept his arguments, there should be quotas for trail usage by ALL users, riders above a certain weight shouldn't be allowed on the trail, nor should riders capable of a certain sustainable power level. Can you hold 450w for a minute? Go find somewhere else to ride...same to you, fatty.

    Pretty dumb, isn't it...but that's what he's implying and you imply it as well by saying his bad faith argument is anything other than bad faith.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by richde View Post
    If you were to accept his arguments, there should be quotas for trail usage by ALL users, riders above a certain weight shouldn't be allowed on the trail, nor should riders capable of a certain sustainable power level. Can you hold 450w for a minute? Go find somewhere else to ride...same to you, fatty.


    ^Weak, totally stupid argument. What are you, some kind of idiot?


    jk but I do respectfully disagree
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    Got news for every E bike hater on every forum: All of you, absolutely everyone of you will be riding an E bike in the future when you can't manage an analog bike anymore for whatever reason. Why? Because we are all passionate about riding forever! The haters will all have to eat their words, but of course they will be too proud to do that. They'll just say "Oh gee whiz I was dead wrong about that one, wasn't I, hee hee?" We are just early days in this whole process.
    Avid, very fit bike racer for 50 years, road racing initially, then mtb last 30 yrs, destroyed both hips from countless falls and now I have two artificial hips. My surgeon rides with us & said "Those 4 mm plastic liners will only last 10 years the way you ride." I've always been an aggressive climber in the front of the pack, even in older years. So now I have an E bike and soft pedal uphill, and I am astounded at how much fun it is. This is the universal reaction of people who get on an E bike.
    And that is precisely why E bikes will be allowed on trails in the future and more trails will find a way to be built to accommodate them. There is absolutely no way these bikes will be denied access with the wave of popularity that is coming. It is going to catch on in spite of the haters. The arguments will continue for now, but it's futile. Everybody will feel as I do: "Geez, I can actually do this till the day I die, barring unforeseen tragedy." That is precisely why it is unstoppable.
    The arguments about more trail damage are absolutely laughable. I am the head trail builder in my region and I am out on the trails working twice a week for hours following my rides, so I am passionate about the condition of my trails. I've been riding the E bike for 4 years now. The fat tires were not nimble enough for the descents so I ride 61mm/2.4" tires on 30mm ID rims, and the traction is so great that the bike just does not slip and slide. I do so much less damage to my trails than I used to on my custom build stumpjumper that weighed 25 1/2 pounds with an aftermarket 160 mm fork, dropper post and aggressive 2.35 tires. The idiots making this argument have not ridden an E bike very much, are too stupid to be able to figure this out, too prejudiced, or all of the above. It's just laughable. And just because I can go farther I have not seen any more damage to my trails. Again, bogus argument.
    So go ahead and rant and rave you idiots. Haters innately know this, and that's why they're so upset. They know they can't stop it. Helloooo, somewhat two faced, no? You will be riding one some day. Entertaining though so it's fun to follow the rants.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmcdev1 View Post
    Got news for every E bike hater on every forum: All of you, absolutely everyone of you will be riding an E bike in the future when you can't manage an analog bike anymore for whatever reason. Why? Because we are all passionate about riding forever! The haters will all have to eat their words, but of course they will be too proud to do that. They'll just say "Oh gee whiz I was dead wrong about that one, wasn't I, hee hee?" We are just early days in this whole process.
    Avid, very fit bike racer for 50 years, road racing initially, then mtb last 30 yrs, destroyed both hips from countless falls and now I have two artificial hips. My surgeon rides with us & said "Those 4 mm plastic liners will only last 10 years the way you ride." I've always been an aggressive climber in the front of the pack, even in older years. So now I have an E bike and soft pedal uphill, and I am astounded at how much fun it is. This is the universal reaction of people who get on an E bike.
    And that is precisely why E bikes will be allowed on trails in the future and more trails will find a way to be built to accommodate them. There is absolutely no way these bikes will be denied access with the wave of popularity that is coming. It is going to catch on in spite of the haters. The arguments will continue for now, but it's futile. Everybody will feel as I do: "Geez, I can actually do this till the day I die, barring unforeseen tragedy." That is precisely why it is unstoppable.
    The arguments about more trail damage are absolutely laughable. I am the head trail builder in my region and I am out on the trails working twice a week for hours following my rides, so I am passionate about the condition of my trails. I've been riding the E bike for 4 years now. The fat tires were not nimble enough for the descents so I ride 61mm/2.4" tires on 30mm ID rims, and the traction is so great that the bike just does not slip and slide. I do so much less damage to my trails than I used to on my custom build stumpjumper that weighed 25 1/2 pounds with an aftermarket 160 mm fork, dropper post and aggressive 2.35 tires. The idiots making this argument have not ridden an E bike very much, are too stupid to be able to figure this out, too prejudiced, or all of the above. It's just laughable. And just because I can go farther I have not seen any more damage to my trails. Again, bogus argument.
    So go ahead and rant and rave you idiots. Haters innately know this, and that's why they're so upset. They know they can't stop it. Helloooo, somewhat two faced, no? You will be riding one some day. Entertaining though so it's fun to follow the rants.
    Hey man, whatever you need to do, to justify your decision, and make yourself feel better. Even if it’s name calling.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    ^Weak, totally stupid argument. What are you, some kind of idiot?


    jk but I do respectfully disagree
    People can "respectfully disagree" about the shape of the Earth...but that doesn't mean they get immunity to being called out for their silliness.

    ....and why are people still allowed to troll in this forum? So much for that whole "advocating for E-bikes" thing, huh...because if that was the case a bunch of you goofs would be getting points.

  36. #36
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    Yes, calling names is the new norm and ridiculing people to shut them up is the most common technique for winning an argument.

    Welcome to the new world order.

    I just ride my bike, it’s much more satisfying than being part of this nonsense.

    My goal is to gradually post less and less, timing my exit with the end of this social media form.

    Still gotta a couple years till it runs down, but it’s certainly going there in a hurry.


    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Is everyone you guys disagree with morons and idiots? Seems like cordial discussions and productive debates are a lost art.
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    the lake i live at is catch and release only on the walleye. Yet i see people poaching them all the time. Fisheries keeps letting us know that stocks are still dwindling.

    We also have hikers who take their dogs down our trails (clearly marked leash only) with the phone in one hand and a coffee in the other. They dont care where their dog craps. But i sure run over it and get it shot all over my bike and then i have to put that same bike in the car for the ride home! good luck trying to find a way to talk to these people about it!

    Point is that people are going to do what they want when they want no matter what their told or asked to do. They will simply justify their opinion/actions in their own minds.

    Can this forum discuss more than just how great my new ebike is. If so, can it have that discussion in a grown up and mature way.

    Fwiw: The purpose of the original post was information sharing. Not trolling and not hating. Leave it to you to decide what group is doing the most negative talking here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jmcdev1 View Post
    The arguments about more trail damage are absolutely laughable. I am the head trail builder in my region and I am out on the trails working twice a week for hours following my rides, so I am passionate about the condition of my trails. I've been riding the E bike for 4 years now. The fat tires were not nimble enough for the descents so I ride 61mm/2.4" tires on 30mm ID rims, and the traction is so great that the bike just does not slip and slide. I do so much less damage to my trails than I used to on my custom build stumpjumper that weighed 25 1/2 pounds with an aftermarket 160 mm fork, dropper post and aggressive 2.35 tires. The idiots making this argument have not ridden an E bike very much, are too stupid to be able to figure this out, too prejudiced, or all of the above. It's just laughable. And just because I can go farther I have not seen any more damage to my trails. Again, bogus argument.
    So go ahead and rant and rave you idiots. Haters innately know this, and that's why they're so upset. They know they can't stop it. Helloooo, somewhat two faced, no? You will be riding one some day. Entertaining though so it's fun to follow the rants.

    Depends how you look at things

    Ever been on a trail, mid summer, that has seen a ton of use. Its probably not in pristine condition. trail use causes trail damage, All bikes do it. But if you make six laps instead of 1 or 2. Then you did more damage. Not by bike classification, but by usage. Theres nothing wrong with the fact that you got to use your bike more than an analog guy did. Your free to do so. Just stop saying i rode my bike for 50miles today but had no more impact than if i rode for 20.

    if you put in 6 laps instead of 2 laps, did it take you three times longer? If not then you were doing higher speeds than you would have on an analog bike. That affects all trail users and trail safety. If that was on a fire road up to the top or straight up single track on a two way trail, it doesnt matter. The result was the same. Higher overall speed.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmcdev1 View Post
    Got news for every E bike hater on every forum: All of you, absolutely everyone of you will be riding an E bike in the future when you can't manage an analog bike anymore for whatever reason. Why? Because we are all passionate about riding forever! The haters will all have to eat their words, but of course they will be too proud to do that. They'll just say "Oh gee whiz I was dead wrong about that one, wasn't I, hee hee?" We are just early days in this whole process.
    Avid, very fit bike racer for 50 years, road racing initially, then mtb last 30 yrs, destroyed both hips from countless falls and now I have two artificial hips. My surgeon rides with us & said "Those 4 mm plastic liners will only last 10 years the way you ride." I've always been an aggressive climber in the front of the pack, even in older years. So now I have an E bike and soft pedal uphill, and I am astounded at how much fun it is. This is the universal reaction of people who get on an E bike.
    And that is precisely why E bikes will be allowed on trails in the future and more trails will find a way to be built to accommodate them. There is absolutely no way these bikes will be denied access with the wave of popularity that is coming. It is going to catch on in spite of the haters. The arguments will continue for now, but it's futile. Everybody will feel as I do: "Geez, I can actually do this till the day I die, barring unforeseen tragedy." That is precisely why it is unstoppable.
    The arguments about more trail damage are absolutely laughable. I am the head trail builder in my region and I am out on the trails working twice a week for hours following my rides, so I am passionate about the condition of my trails. I've been riding the E bike for 4 years now. The fat tires were not nimble enough for the descents so I ride 61mm/2.4" tires on 30mm ID rims, and the traction is so great that the bike just does not slip and slide. I do so much less damage to my trails than I used to on my custom build stumpjumper that weighed 25 1/2 pounds with an aftermarket 160 mm fork, dropper post and aggressive 2.35 tires. The idiots making this argument have not ridden an E bike very much, are too stupid to be able to figure this out, too prejudiced, or all of the above. It's just laughable. And just because I can go farther I have not seen any more damage to my trails. Again, bogus argument.
    So go ahead and rant and rave you idiots. Haters innately know this, and that's why they're so upset. They know they can't stop it. Helloooo, somewhat two faced, no? You will be riding one some day. Entertaining though so it's fun to follow the rants.
    I don't see myself ever riding one but I won't rule it out. But if I do ever ride one, I won't delude myself that it belongs on non-motorized trails. I won't advocate for it or poach trails where they aren't allowed. That's where I draw the line as a non-e-bike rider now and as a potential e-bike rider in the future. If it has a motor, keep it off non-motorized trails. If you think that makes me a hater, that's your prerogative.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by richde View Post
    People can "respectfully disagree" about the shape of the Earth...but that doesn't mean they get immunity to being called out for their silliness.

    So your opinion is the equivalent of hard science?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuse6F View Post
    Depends how you look at things

    Ever been on a trail, mid summer, that has seen a ton of use. Its probably not in pristine condition. trail use causes trail damage, All bikes do it. But if you make six laps instead of 1 or 2. Then you did more damage. Not by bike classification, but by usage. Theres nothing wrong with the fact that you got to use your bike more than an analog guy did. Your free to do so. Just stop saying i rode my bike for 50miles today but had no more impact than if i rode for 20.

    if you put in 6 laps instead of 2 laps, did it take you three times longer? If not then you were doing higher speeds than you would have on an analog bike. That affects all trail users and trail safety. If that was on a fire road up to the top or straight up single track on a two way trail, it doesnt matter. The result was the same. Higher overall speed.
    See what you are taking about is normal wear and tear from using the trails. This unfortunately is going occur with more regularity as population grows. You are simply going to have more trail users than the year before. This type of wear and tear is going to occur no matter what, and no matter how big that rider/bike or erider/ebike combo is you are still doing minimal amount of wear and tear.

    Now you open up the trails to a real dirt bike, now we are talking trail damage. Most dirt bikes are 200lbs or more, and almost all put out 20 times or more the horse power a class 1 ebike can produce (1hp). These dirt bikes can doing real burnouts at almost anytime with a simple twist of the throttle. You ever see a super cross track before dirt bike get on it? The only way to do a burnout on an ebike or bike is to pedal hard and unweight the rear tire.

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuse6F View Post
    Depends how you look at things

    Ever been on a trail, mid summer, that has seen a ton of use. Its probably not in pristine condition. trail use causes trail damage, All bikes do it. But if you make six laps instead of 1 or 2. Then you did more damage. Not by bike classification, but by usage. Theres nothing wrong with the fact that you got to use your bike more than an analog guy did. Your free to do so. Just stop saying i rode my bike for 50miles today but had no more impact than if i rode for 20.

    if you put in 6 laps instead of 2 laps, did it take you three times longer? If not then you were doing higher speeds than you would have on an analog bike. That affects all trail users and trail safety. If that was on a fire road up to the top or straight up single track on a two way trail, it doesnt matter. The result was the same. Higher overall speed.
    I don't own an E-bike,have no plans of getting one, and that seems like a huge stretch to me.

    I highly doubt that guys that used to do 10 miles on their analog bikes are now regularly doing 30 miles on E-bikes. Sure, they are a little quicker on the climbs but are they 3 times as fast? Maybe in Turbo mode but your battery isn't going to last for 30 miles at that rate?

    Certainly no expert.... just observations from the outside looking in.

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    Really fit people cause more trail damage than out of shape people, because they ride more. Not that I have anything against really fit people! Totally don't, it's just my opinion. But they clearly do more trail damage and we as a group need to consider regulating them more. Where will the madness end?

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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveF View Post
    I don't see myself ever riding one but I won't rule it out. But if I do ever ride one, I won't delude myself that it belongs on non-motorized trails. I won't advocate for it or poach trails where they aren't allowed. That's where I draw the line as a non-e-bike rider now and as a potential e-bike rider in the future. If it has a motor, keep it off non-motorized trails. If you think that makes me a hater, that's your prerogative.
    I’ve heard this stance a few times from some of my friends who are now on ebikes. For whatever the reason is, they change their tune when all of sudden life throws them an unexpected challenge such as: back surgery, hip or knee replacement, heart disease, overweight, asthma, old age, car accident or any kind of accident, etc...

    Hopefully you will not encounter anything that would be considered debilitating injury and affect your livelihood. I’m betting you’ll have different tune to ebike and access.

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuse6F View Post
    Depends how you look at things

    if you put in 6 laps instead of 2 laps, did it take you three times longer? If not then you were doing higher speeds than you would have on an analog bike. That affects all trail users and trail safety. If that was on a fire road up to the top or straight up single track on a two way trail, it doesnt matter. The result was the same. Higher overall speed.
    ...except it's not even close to that level of differential. On a typical ride, I average about 20-25% faster on my eMTB than on my regular MTB. At balls out race pace, including heart rate pegged, 70% faster on the eMTB, but only for an hour before the battery is toast, so basically back to the 20-25% number.

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbbiker View Post
    when all of sudden life throws them an unexpected challenge such as: back surgery, hip or knee replacement, heart disease, overweight, asthma, old age, car accident or any kind of accident, etc...
    .
    I'd be more concerned with my overall health than trying to go for a recreational off road bike ride on a machine with a motor.

    Good stuff, only on MTBr will you find a bunch of yahoo's who know more than an industry exec with 30 years experience
    Kind of like playing an electric drum kit

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    Quote Originally Posted by Train Wreck View Post
    I'd be more concerned with my overall health than trying to go for a recreational off road bike ride on a machine with a motor.

    Good stuff, only on MTBr will you find a bunch of yahoo's who know more than an industry exec with 30 years experience
    Your day will come, champ. I hope it is a while, but when it does, you'll want to still ride, too...

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by RickBullottaPA View Post
    Your day will come, champ. I hope it is a while, but when it does, you'll want to still ride, too...
    My day is today! I want 750w with 200mm front and rear under 35lbs...why wait until I'm old/crippled to enjoy it.
    Kind of like playing an electric drum kit

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Train Wreck View Post
    My day is today! I want 750w with 200mm front and rear under 35lbs...why wait until I'm old/crippled to enjoy it.
    LOL. I can get you 35000 watts with 300 front and 335 rear, for just under 220 lbs. And for a lot less than a Levo SL. Braaaap!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuse6F View Post
    Depends how you look at things

    Ever been on a trail, mid summer, that has seen a ton of use. Its probably not in pristine condition. trail use causes trail damage, All bikes do it. But if you make six laps instead of 1 or 2. Then you did more damage. Not by bike classification, but by usage. Theres nothing wrong with the fact that you got to use your bike more than an analog guy did. Your free to do so. Just stop saying i rode my bike for 50miles today but had no more impact than if i rode for 20.

    if you put in 6 laps instead of 2 laps, did it take you three times longer? If not then you were doing higher speeds than you would have on an analog bike. That affects all trail users and trail safety. If that was on a fire road up to the top or straight up single track on a two way trail, it doesnt matter. The result was the same. Higher overall speed.
    You're calling for usage limits which would APPLY TO EVERYONE.

    Sounds silly when you're not just singling out one portion of one type of trail user, doesn't it?

    Sorry, trail's full....try again tomorrow.

    Noooooo, you're only supposed to hurt other people!

    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    I guess it works for people who don't understand what science is.
    Says the guy arguing against it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Train Wreck View Post
    I'd be more concerned with my overall health than trying to go for a recreational off road bike ride on a machine with a motor.

    Good stuff, only on MTBr will you find a bunch of yahoo's who know more than an industry exec with 30 years experience
    Kind of like when people who have clearly never ridden a class 1 ebike, believes they know everything about ebikes. Only on the internet you find yahoo’s like this

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbbiker View Post
    Kind of like when people who have clearly never ridden a class 1 ebike, believes they know everything about ebikes. Only on the internet you find yahoo’s like this
    Right, only on the internet

    I never claimed to be an expert on ebikes. Maybe I don't have a ton of riding experience on them either, but when someone with experience in the industry raises some concerns, I'll listen. It's probably in your best interest to do so as well.

    Its funny to see who trolls are in this thread.

    E-bike moderator? Keep up the good work
    Kind of like playing an electric drum kit

  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Train Wreck View Post
    Right, only on the internet

    I never claimed to be an expert on ebikes. Maybe I don't have a ton of riding experience on them either, but when someone with experience in the industry raises some concerns, I'll listen. It's probably in your best interest to do so as well.

    Its funny to see who trolls are in this thread.

    E-bike moderator? Keep up the good work
    Well, many of the "expert's" points were inaccurate, so I think debate and discussion are warranted and valid from people who actually do ride eMTBs and have "boots on the ground" experience that may differ from the original article's author.

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    The bottom line is that Class 1 eMTBs are not going to change any non-E rider or hiker's experience in any way other than possibly being butthurt over being passed on a climb. Here in CO we have many trails shared between eMTB and non-eMTB, and after awhile, no one even notices. A jerk is a jerk, whether they have a little electric pedal assist or not, and the jerk factor is what really matters. In fact, I have found all of the eMTB riders I have encountered to be more courteous than many of the "analog" MTB riders. They tend to be older and less interested in what other people think, and more interested in just having a good ride.

    I agree with some of the others on this thread, unless you have actually ridden a real (Bosch, Brose, Shimano, Yamaha, etc.) pedal assist eMTB on a real trail, you really don't know what you are talking about.

    The Trek guy makes some good points (we need a consistent power rating) and some stupid ones (quit showing MTBs "shredding"). The fact that he worked for Trek for 30 years? Big f*&^ing deal. I've been riding bicycles, in dirt, for over 50 years. Yes, over 50, starting with my first Stingray. I worked in bikes shops in the 70's and 80's. I've owned over 100 bikes of all kinds. A Class 1 eMTB is not the spawn of the devil, it isn't a trail sharing or erosion issue, it isn't going to cause riders to go apeshit and "shred". It is just a bike that helps a rider go up hill a little faster, and helps a good technical rider clean uphill sections they would normally walk. That's it. If I wanted to point a finger at something that *would* make a difference, it would be mandatory trail education and enforcement for *all* riders, so that uphill riders get the right of way, riders dismount for horses, riders control their speed on non-dedicated descents, riders respect private property, greet hikers and make eye contact before passing, don't skid, etc. But no, we are going have endless pissing contests about whether a bike has a motor or not. In a few years, you won't be able to even tell.

    Riddle me this: if someone removes the battery from their eMTB, is it legal to ride where eMTBs are not allowed? It still has a f*&^ing motor doesn't it? How about the new Specialized Levo SL, they can be run with only an external battery that can be removed in five seconds and stashed in a pack, and results in a 35lb "analog" bike?? If someone uses assist to get to a trailhead, and then removes the battery and puts it in their pack, they have a 35lb bike, but oh shit, its an ebike, the trails are going to erode! Wait, my old Giant Faith weighs 38lb. Now what?

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    The best point he made was about how other user groups view all of this. Everyone here blowing that off is being selfish. Trail access is everything. There seems to be little to no concern over how all this could play out in regards to access. Kingdom trails got shut down because of one jagoff mountain biker, I can tell from browsing this forum there's more than one bad apple that's going to f it up for all of us. Well before the industry decided to slap motors onto bikes we've been on thin ice in many areas. E bikes are blowing up. Now even Santa Cruz makes a moped. I love UCSC trails. 90% of those trails are illegal, but have been well known forever. Just watch, UCSC will be shut down in the coming years and rightly so. RIders have been showing little regard for the sensitive redwood environment, motors will be the straw that breaks the camel's back regardless of whether impact is identical to mountain bikes. Motors will be the breaking point for many other areas too.

  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by slimat99 View Post
    The best point he made was about how other user groups view all of this. Everyone here blowing that off is being selfish. Trail access is everything. There seems to be little to no concern over how all this could play out in regards to access. Kingdom trails got shut down because of one jagoff mountain biker, I can tell from browsing this forum there's more than one bad apple that's going to f it up for all of us. Well before the industry decided to slap motors onto bikes we've been on thin ice in many areas. E bikes are blowing up. Now even Santa Cruz makes a moped. I love UCSC trails. 90% of those trails are illegal, but have been well known forever. Just watch, UCSC will be shut down in the coming years and rightly so. RIders have been showing little regard for the sensitive redwood environment, motors will be the straw that breaks the camel's back regardless of whether impact is identical to mountain bikes. Motors will be the breaking point for many other areas too.
    Santa Cruz makes a moped? I must have missed that. I did see that they make a Class 1 eMTB now.

    You've been riding illegal trails for years, now you want to bitch about ebikes? As you said, "There seems to be little to no concern over how all this could play out in regards to access." You don't think MTB'ers riding illegal trails affect future access?

    I got nothin'.

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    Quote Originally Posted by honkinunit View Post
    Santa Cruz makes a moped? I must have missed that. I did see that they make a Class 1 eMTB now.

    You've been riding illegal trails for years, now you want to bitch about ebikes? As you said, "There seems to be little to no concern over how all this could play out in regards to access." You don't think MTB'ers riding illegal trails affect future access?

    I got nothin'.
    Much of the riding in Santa Cruz is illegal. If you don't ride illegal trails in SC, you don't ride much. My prediction is Ebikes will be the end of some trail systems in Santa Cruz that are well known, well used, but have never been sanctioned. Adding mopeds to the fray is going to exacerbate an already tenuous relationship between bikes and land managers. It's sad that Santa Cruz is willing to put profits in front of trail access in their own town. I've always wondered how long the iffy status of areas like UCSC would last even though it's been around for 20+ years. Mopeds are going to be the last straw. We are our own worst enemies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbbiker View Post
    See what you are taking about is normal wear and tear from using the trails. This unfortunately is going occur with more regularity as population grows. You are simply going to have more trail users than the year before. This type of wear and tear is going to occur no matter what, and no matter how big that rider/bike or erider/ebike combo is you are still doing minimal amount of wear and tear.

    Now you open up the trails to a real dirt bike, now we are talking trail damage. Most dirt bikes are 200lbs or more, and almost all put out 20 times or more the horse power a class 1 ebike can produce (1hp). These dirt bikes can doing real burnouts at almost anytime with a simple twist of the throttle. You ever see a super cross track before dirt bike get on it? The only way to do a burnout on an ebike or bike is to pedal hard and unweight the rear tire.
    I have enough experience to know that putting more power down and covering more distance wears my bike out faster. it also affects the trail too!

    I think we are both saying the same thing. Since you pointed out that an even more powerful motocross bike does even more damage.

    We should move on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RickBullottaPA View Post
    Well, many of the "expert's" points were inaccurate, so I think debate and discussion are warranted and valid from people who actually do ride eMTBs and have "boots on the ground" experience that may differ from the original article's author.

    Many of the responses About the experts points being wrong were wrong. We should hear from Everyone. Especially those who are building trails and trying to improve trail access, people who devoted their careers to making a living with and around bikes. Even from those who might be new to the sport as fresh perspectives can bring fresh ideas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by honkinunit View Post
    Riddle me this: if someone removes the battery from their eMTB, is it legal to ride where eMTBs are not allowed? It still has a f*&^ing motor doesn't it? How about the new Specialized Levo SL, they can be run with only an external battery that can be removed in five seconds and stashed in a pack, and results in a 35lb "analog" bike?? If someone uses assist to get to a trailhead, and then removes the battery and puts it in their pack, they have a 35lb bike, but oh shit, its an ebike, the trails are going to erode! Wait, my old Giant Faith weighs 38lb. Now what?

    Thats a tough one.

    If you saw a guy pushing his motocross bike 5 miles into a non motorized trail, would you fine him.

    The impacts to trails include many things. Its a pretty dynamic situation. Riding in the rain vs dry. But the only impact i feel we can separate from regular bikes to ebikes is the amount of average power being put down.

    levo sl has a internal battery pack built into the frame. Motor has to come out to be removed. External packs are range extenders only!

    https://ebike-mtb.com/en/specialized...0-emtb-review/

    the expert wasnt hammering on ebike riders as a personal attack. Only pointing out the differences and wanting to start discussion and education about the impacts and how the differences are perceived.

    ebikes are diff. They are motorized. They have impacts that arent fully understood, what direction are they headed, does that change how they should be looked at. More data is needed and industry needs to get together on this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuse6F View Post
    Many of the responses About the experts points being wrong were wrong. We should hear from Everyone. Especially those who are building trails and trying to improve trail access, people who devoted their careers to making a living with and around bikes. Even from those who might be new to the sport as fresh perspectives can bring fresh ideas.
    Go ahead and bring up one of those points then and stop acting as if all opinions are equally based in reality.

    At least one person pointed out, point by point, how the ex-Trek guy was wrong. Let's see you do the same.

    "More data is needed" = "I don't like the data that's readily available"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuse6F View Post
    I have enough experience to know that putting more power down and covering more distance wears my bike out faster. it also affects the trail too!
    Are we back to usage quotas that impact everyone?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fuse6F View Post
    We should move on.
    Maybe you should move on instead of suggesting we move on while continuing to argue silly points.

    Keep in mind that any argument against ebikes is also an argument against ALL bikes...don't do the hikers' and equestrians' jobs for them.

    We're all stronger together.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuse6F View Post
    Thats a tough one.

    If you saw a guy pushing his motocross bike 5 miles into a non motorized trail, would you fine him.

    The impacts to trails include many things. Its a pretty dynamic situation. Riding in the rain vs dry. But the only impact i feel we can separate from regular bikes to ebikes is the amount of average power being put down.

    levo sl has a internal battery pack built into the frame. Motor has to come out to be removed. External packs are range extenders only!

    https://ebike-mtb.com/en/specialized...0-emtb-review/

    the expert wasnt hammering on ebike riders as a personal attack. Only pointing out the differences and wanting to start discussion and education about the impacts and how the differences are perceived.

    ebikes are diff. They are motorized. They have impacts that arent fully understood, what direction are they headed, does that change how they should be looked at. More data is needed and industry needs to get together on this.

    The Levo SL can run on external battery only, in fact, that is *how* Specialized expects riders to ride the bike if they have to fly with it. The internal battery is too big to fly on a plane, the external batteries are not. If you are going to fly, you are supposed to remove the internal battery and leave it at home, and bring as many external batteries as you need. You can bring several externals on a plane, as long as they are all smaller than the cut off.

    Please explain how a 150lb rider on a 45lb ebike causes more erosion than a 200lb rider on a 30lb bike. The erosion fears are simply bullshit red herrings conjured up by ebike opponents. I could take my 20lb hardtail and by riding like an idiot, cause more trail damage than a 250lb guy on a 50lb ebike riding normally. It is all about the rider.

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    Quote Originally Posted by richde View Post
    Are we back to usage quotas that impact everyone?



    Maybe you should move on instead of suggesting we move on while continuing to argue silly points.

    Keep in mind that any argument against ebikes is also an argument against ALL bikes...don't do the hikers' and equestrians' jobs for them.

    We're all stronger together.
    Where are you getting the idea about use quotas from??? Please explain.

    Thats what i said.... Weeeee as a group should move on from this.

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    Calling class 1 e-bikes "mopeds" is disingenuous and a non-starter for reasonable conversation.
    2020 SC Hightower

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuse6F View Post
    Where are you getting the idea about use quotas from??? Please explain.

    Thats what i said.... Weeeee as a group should move on from this.
    If you're concerned about how much a trail is used, the solution is a limit of how many people can use the trail. Why is that confusing?

    Yeah, you said "we as a group should move on" right before NOT moving on.

    Typically, that's the last thing you say in a conversation.

    Quote Originally Posted by mlx john View Post
    Calling class 1 e-bikes "mopeds" is disingenuous and a non-starter for reasonable conversation.
    Yet another thing these people just can't seem to figure out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by honkinunit View Post
    The Levo SL can run on external battery only, in fact, that is *how* Specialized expects riders to ride the bike if they have to fly with it. The internal battery is too big to fly on a plane, the external batteries are not. If you are going to fly, you are supposed to remove the internal battery and leave it at home, and bring as many external batteries as you need. You can bring several externals on a plane, as long as they are all smaller than the cut off.

    Please explain how a 150lb rider on a 45lb ebike causes more erosion than a 200lb rider on a 30lb bike. The erosion fears are simply bullshit red herrings conjured up by ebike opponents. I could take my 20lb hardtail and by riding like an idiot, cause more trail damage than a 250lb guy on a 50lb ebike riding normally. It is all about the rider.


    I thought the post said the bike only had external batteries. My bad. Glad you pointed that out.

    this is smart marketing by specialized. However, You will have to remove the motor to get out the fixed internal battery for air travel and then get airline permission to travel with up to a maximum of two of the range extender batteries. As they are 160wh and over the 100wh limit. That assumes the combined batteries have less than 8g of lithium.


    https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/retriev....1.3.12.1.25.5

    https://www.faa.gov/hazmat/packsafe/more_info/?hazmat=7


    As for my second point. The ebike lets you get more work done than analog. That work is put out into the trail, usually making quick work of the climbs. So all things being equal. As in an idiot blasting the berms. Means that same idiot then powers up the trail to do it all over again more times in a day. If you want proof then more data should be collected to prove it. But seems simple enough as a concept!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuse6F View Post
    As for my second point. The ebike lets you get more work done than analog. That work is put out into the trail, usually making quick work of the climbs. So all things being equal. As in an idiot blasting the berms. Means that same idiot then powers up the trail to do it all over again more times in a day. If you want proof then more data should be collected to prove it. But seems simple enough as a concept!
    It has been studied and it's not much different from a non-assisted bike....you just don't seem to like the results. Rant and rave all you want, but the Earth is still round.

    News flash, genius: A lot of people can put out the max output of an ebike. It doesn't mean they're doing burnouts every time they do it.

    Still not moving on, I see.

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    Quote Originally Posted by richde View Post
    It has been studied and it's not much different from a non-assisted bike....you just don't seem to like the results. Rant and rave all you want, but the Earth is still round.

    News flash, genius: A lot of people can put out the max output of an ebike. It doesn't mean they're doing burnouts every time they do it.

    Still not moving on, I see.
    What did you mean by:
    Not much different... less or more.... link the study please.


    What do you mean by beat the max output of an ebike? Here is an add link below. Are you saying you can pass this ebike on a climb?

    https://www.specialized.com/us/en/turbo-levo

    The Turbo Levo’s 565-watt Specialized 2.1 motor quadruples your effort with a smooth and natural feel at the pedals, without adding any awkward surges in power. You can get to the top of your favorite descent with just a quarter of the effort, or four-times as fast. You’re in control. It’s you, only faster.

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    The discussion totally misses my main point. The people managing trails who are making decisions will enjoy riding E bikes so much there's no way they will kick them off trails. They will start developing new trails to accommodate them. Whoever imagined BLM would open up their lands nationwide to E bikes as soon as they did??? That truly stunned! Was it because decision-making officials at the top had experience with E bikes, understood what they do/more significantly do not do to trails, how much fun it is, & how it could improve people's health, desperately needed in this country that is sinking economically from skyrocketing healthcare costs. Or the healthcare problem alone could be the reason, it is that scary bad. These costs are skyrocketing because people won't take personal responsibility for their own fitness and health but would rather sit and watch their beloved big screen TV, drink beer/soda, and stuff their faces.
    Most of you in this forum have no idea how anxious government officials are to cut their healthcare costs because of their massive number of employees, costs increasing so rapidly that bankruptcies are inevitable very soon if nothing changes. They finally understand if they don't provide the facilities for people to exercise, they will never begin. This is the overriding point. "What, you want me to tell people they can't ride a bike in the woods because it has a little motor that takes the suffering away when they go uphill? You set your ass down here and look at those projections on healthcare costs and then see if you want to try to sell me that again, idiot."
    48 years of trying to motivate my patients to embrace a healthy lifestyle rather than just asking for yet another goddamn pill to treat their most recently diagnosed condition, to just exercise 30 min, 3 days/wk, & eat a healthier diet, has taught me one thing about exercise. For it to have any chance of being embraced by the average obese, lazy ass American it has to have 2 things: be really fun & be really, really, unbelievably, f...ing easy. Well.... that's an E bike.
    I am also on the board of a nonprofit in our area whose mission is making streets safer for pedestrians/cyclists and maintaining trail networks in the forest reserve for recreation (I'm the head trail builder as mentioned earlier). We were absolutely ignored and even laughed at by government officials all through the 80s, 90s, and early 2000's. Suddenly after 2010 they woke up and realized their rapidly spiraling healthcare costs were going to bankrupt them if they didn't try something new to get their employees exercising, and now they are our best supporters. Unbelievable reversal. They can't help us enough. They give us hundreds of thousands of dollars a year to manage programs to get people on bicycles, such as Bike Share, are completely embracing the Vision Zero initiative for safer streets in town, have designated us as their official trail builder/trail maintenance people, brought our trail system under the State recreational trail program with beautiful signage promised in the near future, and fully support every single idea or program we present to them.
    You need to understand, everyone on this forum, E bikes will not be legislated against but will be embraced with open arms, as evidenced by the BLM decision. These officials would be ecstatic to see everyone out riding an E bike in the forest. We all need to understand that this whole thing is bigger than our little niggling worries about whether we'll get kicked off trails because of E bikes. Government officials at the top don't lay in bed unable to sleep worrying about trail access (? "Trail access? WTF is that?"), rather they are wondering how the hell they are going to cover the billions of dollars their healthcare costs just went up this year alone. Yes it will be a slow process since they don't have the budget presently to manage this but that will change in the future. User fees undoubtedly, unfortunately.
    There is no other form of exercise that equals the enjoyment and ease of the E bike. And it is only even early days with this technology. They will rapidly become much lighter/more reliable (eg the new Specialized Levo SL) to the point where they will be embraced widely.....but only if there are trails available & safe streets to commute on. States with great trail networks/bike friendly streets will demonstrate to the others how rapidly it becomes embraced w/ subsequent decreases in healthcare costs.
    This is so much bigger than sierra club vs mtn bike, analog vs E bike fighting over trail access. In fact, watch the hikers embrace E bikes when they finally just try one.
    Just keep an open mind and see what happens.

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuse6F View Post
    What did you mean by:
    Not much different... less or more.... link the study please.


    What do you mean by beat the max output of an ebike? Here is an add link below. Are you saying you can pass this ebike on a climb?

    https://www.specialized.com/us/en/turbo-levo

    The Turbo Levo’s 565-watt Specialized 2.1 motor quadruples your effort with a smooth and natural feel at the pedals, without adding any awkward surges in power. You can get to the top of your favorite descent with just a quarter of the effort, or four-times as fast. You’re in control. It’s you, only faster.
    Here you go https://b.3cdn.net/bikes/c3fe8a28f1a..._g3m6bdt7g.pdf


    No, I didn't say that, I said that the output of an ebike is within the capabilities of many people...just not for very long. But the point that you don't get because you don't seem to understand much about it is that it didn't bother anyone until they started getting passed on climbs by more than just fit riders.

    You know how on descents that if you go too fast you crash? It's kinda the same regardless if you have electric assist or not. Do you ride like an assclown and assume everyone else does or just pulling arguments out of your ass? It's one of the two.

    Good job moving on, btw. I figured you were acting in bad faith, thanks for reaffirming my lack of faith in humanity.

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    Hey little man, Fuse6f...

    I don't care about your reputation comments, so you can either say something stupid in public for everyone to laugh at or keep it to yourself.

    Go ahead and tell your parents if you want, because I don't care.

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    Quote Originally Posted by richde View Post
    Here you go https://b.3cdn.net/bikes/c3fe8a28f1a..._g3m6bdt7g.pdf


    No, I didn't say that, I said that the output of an ebike is within the capabilities of many people...just not for very long. But the point that you don't get because you don't seem to understand much about it is that it didn't bother anyone until they started getting passed on climbs by more than just fit riders.

    You know how on descents that if you go too fast you crash? It's kinda the same regardless if you have electric assist or not. Do you ride like an assclown and assume everyone else does or just pulling arguments out of your ass? It's one of the two.

    Good job moving on, btw. I figured you were acting in bad faith, thanks for reaffirming my lack of faith in humanity.
    What length of time can the ebike out power the human rider? Is just just for a minute or two? For example the bike in my previous post. How long could it output that power level? How long do you think the average rider can hold that power level?

    i reviewed the study. Thanks for linking it. I took two things from it. More study is recommended and that with equal usage (same number of laps) there was about 5% greater damage caused by an ebike vs that of a normal mtb. Now remember that 5% more of hardly anything still is pretty much nothing. But in a black and white argument. My point stands.

    I also want to add that all along ive been stating that there are more laps made on average by an ebiker. This doesnt even factor in laps made by physically limited users who wouldnt have made laps at all. Im happy they are out there by the way.

    the differences, in distances ridden by the two groups, if factored into the test will increase the wear rates further.

    Would they become statistically relevant. Have to do the study. If being charged for ohv registration (which is coming) they could be enough to justify different rates for access.

    as a favour to everyone here, myself included, could you manage your posts in the same manner that you yourself would like to be responded to.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuse6F View Post
    Thats a tough one.

    If you saw a guy pushing his motocross bike 5 miles into a non motorized trail, would you fine him.

    The impacts to trails include many things. Its a pretty dynamic situation. Riding in the rain vs dry. But the only impact i feel we can separate from regular bikes to ebikes is the amount of average power being put down.

    levo sl has a internal battery pack built into the frame. Motor has to come out to be removed. External packs are range extenders only!

    https://ebike-mtb.com/en/specialized...0-emtb-review/

    the expert wasnt hammering on ebike riders as a personal attack. Only pointing out the differences and wanting to start discussion and education about the impacts and how the differences are perceived.

    ebikes are diff. They are motorized. They have impacts that arent fully understood, what direction are they headed, does that change how they should be looked at. More data is needed and industry needs to get together on this.
    There's a ton of data in Europe, where most good riders are on e mtn bikes now.
    Nobody bitches about it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuse6F View Post
    Fwiw: The purpose of the original post was information sharing. Not trolling and not hating. Leave it to you to decide what group is doing the most negative talking here.


    Nailed it, the ones calling others "haters" are the ones slinging the most mud and displaying the most intolerance.

    I realize it's just a few people emboldened by internet anonymity though and not representative of the real world. As mentioned I have friends who ride electric bikes who are kind and reasonable.
    I brake for stinkbugs

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuse6F View Post
    What length of time can the ebike out power the human rider? Is just just for a minute or two? For example the bike in my previous post. How long could it output that power level? How long do you think the average rider can hold that power level?

    i reviewed the study. Thanks for linking it. I took two things from it. More study is recommended and that with equal usage (same number of laps) there was about 5% greater damage caused by an ebike vs that of a normal mtb. Now remember that 5% more of hardly anything still is pretty much nothing. But in a black and white argument. My point stands.

    I also want to add that all along ive been stating that there are more laps made on average by an ebiker. This doesnt even factor in laps made by physically limited users who wouldnt have made laps at all. Im happy they are out there by the way.

    the differences, in distances ridden by the two groups, if factored into the test will increase the wear rates further.

    Would they become statistically relevant. Have to do the study. If being charged for ohv registration (which is coming) they could be enough to justify different rates for access.

    as a favour to everyone here, myself included, could you manage your posts in the same manner that you yourself would like to be responded to.
    I thought you were moving on from this weak argument! Just riding on the trails does minimal amount of damage to a well built trail system.

    Fuse6f, it would be great if you could manage yourself with a little more restraint. You come into the ebike forum about once a month and start trolling. I get it, you are against ebikes, move on or find another sub forum to moan in.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuse6F View Post
    What length of time can the ebike out power the human rider? Is just just for a minute or two? For example the bike in my previous post. How long could it output that power level? How long do you think the average rider can hold that power level?

    i reviewed the study. Thanks for linking it. I took two things from it. More study is recommended and that with equal usage (same number of laps) there was about 5% greater damage caused by an ebike vs that of a normal mtb. Now remember that 5% more of hardly anything still is pretty much nothing. But in a black and white argument. My point stands.

    I also want to add that all along ive been stating that there are more laps made on average by an ebiker. This doesnt even factor in laps made by physically limited users who wouldnt have made laps at all. Im happy they are out there by the way.

    the differences, in distances ridden by the two groups, if factored into the test will increase the wear rates further.

    Would they become statistically relevant. Have to do the study. If being charged for ohv registration (which is coming) they could be enough to justify different rates for access.

    as a favour to everyone here, myself included, could you manage your posts in the same manner that you yourself would like to be responded to.
    You're suggesting, indirectly, that strong riders should be banned from the trails, because they can go further and faster. Also, well-designed and properly maintained trails are generally unaffected by usage volume, unless idiots are using them in poor conditions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mlx john View Post
    Calling class 1 e-bikes "mopeds" is disingenuous and a non-starter for reasonable conversation.
    Sorry I hurt your feelings. You're a big boy riding a big boy bike!

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    Quote Originally Posted by slimat99 View Post
    Sorry I hurt your feelings. You're a big boy riding a big boy bike!
    Show me on the doll where the eBike hurt you...

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    Quote Originally Posted by RickBullottaPA View Post
    Show me on the doll where the eBike hurt you...
    haha love it.

    My friend I've been bent over so many times by the bike industry I have Stockholm Syndrome. Seriously though, trail access in Santa Cruz is no joke and Emopeds are going to f it all up. So yeah, Ebikes are hurting me. Hurting me and many other mountain bikers in areas where trail access is tenuous.

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    Regular bikes have unlimited range, where an off the shelf ebike's range is fairly limited. Why are non-ebike riders avoiding discussing this very obvious downside to their choice of bikes. I can ride my non-ebike over a hundred miles on trails but I can only get a fraction of that on a battery charge. The environmental damage caused by non-ebikes is that of three or four ebikers over the course of a day. It is widely accepted that non-ebikes are faster on the downhill, which is the most dangerous place for speed. To recap, non-ebikes have unlimited range, faster downhill speeds, and unlimited speed potential! For the record, I don't think all non-ebikes should be banned from every trail, but we should be open to land managers who want to contain the obvious hazard to the environment and other trail users.

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    [QUOTE=figofspee;14564513] Why are non-ebike riders avoiding discussing this[QUOTE]

    Look at the way non-ebikers are responded to in this "discussion"

    Around here you're either pro ebike your you get run out of here.
    Kind of like playing an electric drum kit

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    [QUOTE=Train Wreck;14564547][QUOTE=figofspee;14564513] Why are non-ebike riders avoiding discussing this

    Look at the way non-ebikers are responded to in this "discussion"
    That is a weak excuse for ignoring your choice to persecute other trail users and destroy the environment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by figofspee View Post
    That is a weak excuse for ignoring your choice to persecute other trail users and destroy the environment.
    I have no idea what you are talking about.
    Kind of like playing an electric drum kit

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    Good points for everyone.

    Whats really caught my attention about this post is that the presentation was given to people for bikes. (Correct me if im wrong)

    https://peopleforbikes.org/legislation-lobbying/

    This is a lobby group setup by industry to push for laws and social changes to further the bike industry. Make more money. The side benefit may be that We enjoy better bikes and access to public lands.

    But the negative side of ebikes is they are motorized. And that little technicality is forcing everyone to take a look at mtb and whats come up is funding for trails that basically create demand for bike sales. So the answer to that riddle is ohv registration (pay to play). Were they always pushing for that. I dont know, but culturally its well established for motorized vehicle registration. Ebike has just made a stronger connection to that

    Without posting on here the more important issue of ohv registration wouldnt have come up. So its time to choose. Push back against me or push back against people who want you to pay to play. Once that fee and enforcement structure is put in place, it aint going away. Just the fee increased.

    Could there be benefits. Perhaps. But some of the money i suspect will go into salaries and enforcement costs. Legal issues in court etc.

    Up here in canada we have a company that setup bouncy castles to play in the water on. So basically a water park. But they did it not by buying land but leasing beach rights and roping the areas off for their exclusive monetization. This business then jumped to most major lakes overnight. Could this model happen to bike trails. It could. Favorite riding areas would have a couple high school kids swiping your credit card at the trail head.

    Am i an ebike hater. If that means i can see issues around the deveolpment and responsible use of them. Then i guess so. But i can see that about regular bikes, cars, stupid bright led headlights, etc. But i also emailed a good friend last night and told him that the new levo sl was the best ebike ive ever seen and i highly recommend it as i encourage him to get into the sport. So check your own oil please!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Train Wreck View Post
    I have no idea what you are talking about.
    Playing dumb won't work here

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    Lower Class 1 speed in US?

    Quote Originally Posted by rod9301 View Post
    There's a ton of data in Europe, where most good riders are on e mtn bikes now.
    Nobody bitches about it.
    It would be useful to learn what the Euros know about Class 1 EMTBs - especially the rationale for their lower Class 1 speed of 15MPH vs 20MPH in USA.

    The Trek executive also advocates 15 MPH I think for safety reasons. Another reason may be to extend the riding range with one battery, making the product more practical and affordable is my thought.

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    Quote Originally Posted by slimat99 View Post
    haha love it.

    My friend I've been bent over so many times by the bike industry I have Stockholm Syndrome. Seriously though, trail access in Santa Cruz is no joke and Emopeds are going to f it all up. So yeah, Ebikes are hurting me. Hurting me and many other mountain bikers in areas where trail access is tenuous.
    Someone earlier gave you a good answer, but you ignored it. Let’s try it again. You claim a lot of the trails in Santa Cruz are illegal, yet you and your crew and I’m sure other bikers still ride these trails regardless for years. Yet if they get closed down now, it’s because of ebikes?

    That’s a tough one, because of one glaring fact! The trails in question are illegal. I guess my best advise I can give you is get them rich hippies out of positions of power!

    Good luck!


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by rod9301 View Post
    There's a ton of data in Europe, where most good riders are on e mtn bikes now.
    Nobody bitches about it.

    Sent from my Redmi Note 8 Pro using Tapatalk
    There is a difference though, in Europe e-bikes are limited to 15 Mph and max 250W. In the US Class 1 is 20 Mph and 750W.

    This does make a difference.

    Sent from my ASUS Chromebook Flip C101PA using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuse6F View Post
    I think you have something there.

    So you are saying that ebikes can be ridden for a limited range, say 30 to 50 miles, and that afterwards they change into heavy non ebikes (dead batteries). from that point on they can continue to be ridden for unlimited distances doing Further damage as their range is limitless.

    we are both just joking right?
    That is an absurd argument, as there isn't any reason to ride an eBike if you plan on riding it extensively past the battery charge.

    What eBike is getting 50 miles of serious trail riding on a single charge?

    I thought you were being serious when you posted the opinion of the Trek Executive, but it sounds like you were joking. That is some serious sarcasm that you might want to clarify next time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dogsonboards View Post
    There is a difference though, in Europe e-bikes are limited to 15 Mph and max 250W. In the US Class 1 is 20 Mph and 750W.

    This does make a difference.

    Sent from my ASUS Chromebook Flip C101PA using Tapatalk
    Bafang is currently selling 3 million units in Europe and they project sales in the 15 to 20 million range here in the near future. Bafang motors can be derestricted in under a minute (you can derestrict the bafang accidently if you have an eggrider). I don't have a problem with a motor that cuts out on singletrack at 10mph but that would be silly for roads. Thankfully, the states have a more reasonable take on eBikes

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    Given the various access limitations imposed on motorized vehicles, it's no wonder that the industry markets their electric mopeds as e-bikes... back when gas powered engines were added to bicycles - they were called mopeds and there was no controversy about it. These days everyone argues about the different classes of e-bikes, but the bottom line is that a bicycle is a vehicle propelled solely by the force of human muscles. Bicycles have evolved in over 200 years quite a bit, but the basic truth is that bicycle is a non-motorized vehicle, and if one adds any motor to it, it becomes something else. I think it's best to be honest about it.

    If trail access is at risk because of land managers' perceived dangers associated with e-bike riding, then it is pretty easy for them to close the trails to all users on any type of a bike. There is no point in comparing the US to Europe, as over in Europe the laws are much different, and they vary from one country to another. I don't think that a dialogue between the industry and various land managers is a bad thing - if it can avoid the conflicts that arose when mountain biking became popular, and hikers wanted bikers gone from all trails.

    If e-biker proponents don't want that dialogue, and don't want to have productive discussion, then decisions regarding trail access will likely be made without their input, which won't be good.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack7782 View Post
    It would be useful to learn what the Euros know about Class 1 EMTBs - especially the rationale for their lower Class 1 speed of 15MPH vs 20MPH in USA.

    The Trek executive also advocates 15 MPH I think for safety reasons. Another reason may be to extend the riding range with one battery, making the product more practical and affordable is my thought.
    Class 1 ebikes would be considered mopeds in the EU because of their higher allowed speeds and power. Which is why the Trek guy proposed another class, which would be the same as their Pedelec. If you assume that ebike sellers and riders would follow the regulations, it would make sense and would have been the best route to gain almost unlimited emtb access.

    There is zero evidence that all sellers in the US market will adhere to the 3 class system, the market is full of "ebikes" that are outside of the legal definition of an ebike, I see more of those than legal ones. Unless you're already an experienced mtb rider, they're appealing, lots of power and the best bang for the buck.


    Quote Originally Posted by richde View Post
    News flash, genius: A lot of people can put out the max output of an ebike.
    1200+ watts? A pro sprinter maybe

    https://electrek.co/2020/02/11/m2s-a...ension-e-bike/

    https://electrek.co/2019/10/11/frey-...ke-suspension/

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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbbiker View Post
    Someone earlier gave you a good answer, but you ignored it. Let’s try it again. You claim a lot of the trails in Santa Cruz are illegal, yet you and your crew and I’m sure other bikers still ride these trails regardless for years. Yet if they get closed down now, it’s because of ebikes?

    That’s a tough one, because of one glaring fact! The trails in question are illegal. I guess my best advise I can give you is get them rich hippies out of positions of power!

    Good luck!


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    The trails I'm speaking of you've seen in advertising vids I'm sure. I'm not talking about secret illegal trails. Unsanctioned trails have been apart of the sport since day one. Kenda named a tire after a famous unsanctioned trail in Laguna Beach. Unsanctioned is a lot more common than many think. There's always been a balance between land managers and unsanctioned trail use. Ebikes are destroying that balance. We will lose access in some areas, yet all ebikers care about is their ability to make MTB easier. It's selfish. You guys expect the same access as mountain bikes, yet you fail to recognize just how precarious trail access in some areas is. I would feel like a dik if my desire to have a motor affected others. It seems that's a sentiment that doesn't exist in the moped community.

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    Wrong post

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuse6F View Post
    This was your post.
    I thought you were joking!!! I even put that in my response to the post.

    Here is my response to your post

    Quote Originally Posted by Fuse6F View Post
    I think you have something there.

    So you are saying that ebikes can be ridden for a limited range, say 30 to 50 miles, and that afterwards they change into heavy non ebikes (dead batteries). from that point on they can continue to be ridden for unlimited distances doing Further damage as their range is limitless.

    we are both just joking right?


    In my response to your post, i just used your logic that after riding out the battery any ebike turns it back into an analog bike. So anything you were saying about analog bikes must then just apply to your ebike.

    But then you responded

    That is an absurd argument, as there isn't any reason to ride an eBike if you plan on riding it extensively past the battery charge.

    What eBike is getting 50 miles of serious trail riding on a single charge?

    I thought you were being serious when you posted the opinion of the Trek Executive, but it sounds like you were joking. That is some serious sarcasm that you might want to clarify next time.



    So it seems you were/are being serious in your first post.
    lets discuss your points.

    You actually make rides over a hundred miles on your analog bike. When you take your ebike, for example a levo w a 700wh battery, it wouldnt last 30 miles on the lowest setting!? Those must be some tough trails. How long does it take to finish them on your analog bike?

    an analog ebike has unlimited speed potential? That sounds pretty dangerous. Is that the main reason you feel they should be banned?

    You said not all analog bikes should be banned. Which ones do you feel should?

    What ebike are you on? How is it regulating Your downhill speed that makes it different than the analog bike?

    What does your ebike do when the battery runs out? Why dont you want to continue to ride it? Does this mean they are only useful when they are in motorized mode?
    The confusion stems from the fact that the trek executive's argument parralels your joking argument so much that if you view one as a joke you must also view the other as a joke.

    With regards to your questions. Apologies if you were just pretending to be simple, but if you are seriously asking those questions, you probably shouldn't be starting threads surrounding the dynamics of ebikes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dogsonboards View Post
    There is a difference though, in Europe e-bikes are limited to 15 Mph and max 250W. In the US Class 1 is 20 Mph and 750W.

    This does make a difference.

    Sent from my ASUS Chromebook Flip C101PA using Tapatalk
    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post
    Class 1 ebikes would be considered mopeds in the EU because of their higher allowed speeds and power. Which is why the Trek guy proposed another class, which would be the same as their Pedelec. If you assume that ebike sellers and riders would follow the regulations, it would make sense and would have been the best route to gain almost unlimited emtb access.

    There is zero evidence that all sellers in the US market will adhere to the 3 class system, the market is full of "ebikes" that are outside of the legal definition of an ebike, I see more of those than legal ones. Unless you're already an experienced mtb rider, they're appealing, lots of power and the best bang for the buck.




    1200+ watts? A pro sprinter maybe

    https://electrek.co/2020/02/11/m2s-a...ension-e-bike/

    https://electrek.co/2019/10/11/frey-...ke-suspension/
    There is no difference between USA and EU spec. motors except the 15mph vs 20mph. The watts rating on a bike is not that straight forward and I'm not going to explain it. If you are interested, look it up. USA Shimano's Steps e8000 = 250watts, the new USA Bosch motor = 250watts, these are nominal values and there are max values.

    The issue is people only read the specs. 20mph max speed and wrongly assumes these bikes can do 20mph everywhere. If you have ridden an ebike on an actual true mountain bike park with climbing hills, very few people will hit 20mph and if they do, probably won't be able to hold 20mph for long. For me and most other ebikers, it gives me a 3 to 5mph boost of what I use to be able to do on a regular bike. On flat trails, yes piece of cake holding 20mph, but so can a regular biker. Slight up, yes an ebike will hold a higher top speed.

    Just because an ebike makes a person stronger on a climb, doesn't mean he/she sudden becomes Gwin or Rude on the downhill or for that matter climbing. People forget, it still takes skill to ride fast on the downhill or going up technical climbs, which by the way every normal bike can easily do well over 20mph on the downhill. Where I ride, there are many riders with $8k bikes or more, with the best suspension money can by, yet they still can't go that fast downhill or tech climbing.

    Harryman, I ride almost everyday true mtb trails and I encounter other ebikes, but I've not come across the other bikes you speak of, they have all been class 1 bikes. Even SkyPark, which is super popular with ebikes, I've not seen what you've seen. Not sure where you are riding??? When I'm in my car, I'll see these other ebikes and yes, they are going very fast, but those bikes don't look very off road worthy. Also around San Clemente beach, quite few surfers are using these ebikes with surf boards attached. One passed me up like I was standing still, but again, definitely not off road worthy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbbiker View Post
    There is no difference between USA and EU spec. motors except the 15mph vs 20mph. The watts rating on a bike is not that straight forward and I'm not going to explain it. If you are interested, look it up. USA Shimano's Steps e8000 = 250watts, the new USA Bosch motor = 250watts, these are nominal values and there are max values.

    The issue is people only read the specs. 20mph max speed and wrongly assumes these bikes can do 20mph everywhere. If you have ridden an ebike on an actual true mountain bike park with climbing hills, very few people will hit 20mph and if they do, probably won't be able to hold 20mph for long. For me and most other ebikers, it gives me a 3 to 5mph boost of what I use to be able to do on a regular bike. On flat trails, yes piece of cake holding 20mph, but so can a regular biker. Slight up, yes an ebike will hold a higher top speed.

    Just because an ebike makes a person stronger on a climb, doesn't mean he/she sudden becomes Gwin or Rude on the downhill or for that matter climbing. People forget, it still takes skill to ride fast on the downhill or going up technical climbs, which by the way every normal bike can easily do well over 20mph on the downhill. Where I ride, there are many riders with $8k bikes or more, with the best suspension money can by, yet they still can't go that fast downhill or tech climbing.

    Harryman, I ride almost everyday true mtb trails and I encounter other ebikes, but I've not come across the other bikes you speak of, they have all been class 1 bikes. Even SkyPark, which is super popular with ebikes, I've not seen what you've seen. Not sure where you are riding??? When I'm in my car, I'll see these other ebikes and yes, they are going very fast, but those bikes don't look very off road worthy. Also around San Clemente beach, quite few surfers are using these ebikes with surf boards attached. One passed me up like I was standing still, but again, definitely not off road worthy.
    You're mistaken in believing those guys are making informed arguments.

    The max power of an ebike that's listed is the max COMBINED power the motor will put out along with what you provide. Push any harder and the motor doesn't help any more.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuse6F View Post
    What length of time can the ebike out power the human rider? Is just just for a minute or two? For example the bike in my previous post. How long could it output that power level? How long do you think the average rider can hold that power level?

    i reviewed the study. Thanks for linking it. I took two things from it. More study is recommended and that with equal usage (same number of laps) there was about 5% greater damage caused by an ebike vs that of a normal mtb. Now remember that 5% more of hardly anything still is pretty much nothing. But in a black and white argument. My point stands.

    I also want to add that all along ive been stating that there are more laps made on average by an ebiker. This doesnt even factor in laps made by physically limited users who wouldnt have made laps at all. Im happy they are out there by the way.

    the differences, in distances ridden by the two groups, if factored into the test will increase the wear rates further.

    Would they become statistically relevant. Have to do the study. If being charged for ohv registration (which is coming) they could be enough to justify different rates for access.

    as a favour to everyone here, myself included, could you manage your posts in the same manner that you yourself would like to be responded to.
    No, your point doesn't stand.

    ...and don't talk about etiquette when you're making passive aggressive reputation comments, especially when you're just here to troll around making bad faith arguments based in ignorance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post
    Class 1 ebikes would be considered mopeds in the EU because of their higher allowed speeds and power. Which is why the Trek guy proposed another class, which would be the same as their Pedelec. If you assume that ebike sellers and riders would follow the regulations, it would make sense and would have been the best route to gain almost unlimited emtb access.

    There is zero evidence that all sellers in the US market will adhere to the 3 class system, the market is full of "ebikes" that are outside of the legal definition of an ebike, I see more of those than legal ones. Unless you're already an experienced mtb rider, they're appealing, lots of power and the best bang for the buck.




    1200+ watts? A pro sprinter maybe

    https://electrek.co/2020/02/11/m2s-a...ension-e-bike/

    https://electrek.co/2019/10/11/frey-...ke-suspension/
    Are those bikes legal on trails in the US? Might as well post a link to a KTM 450, it's about as clever as what you did.

    No they're not and you know they aren't. Pretty sad state of affairs when even the mods are trolling.

    1200w isn't that hard either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by richde View Post
    You're mistaken in believing those guys are making informed arguments.

    The max power of an ebike that's listed is the max COMBINED power the motor will put out along with what you provide. Push any harder and the motor doesn't help any more.
    Are you saying that Once the motor has given its 540 watts of power any extra is given by you. Eg, 541watts then 540 is by bike and 1 by the rider.

    Assuming the bike was set to full assist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by richde View Post
    No, your point doesn't stand.

    ...and don't talk about etiquette when you're making passive aggressive reputation comments, especially when you're just here to troll around making bad faith arguments based in ignorance.
    Sure wish you would take the time to explain.

    would help to clean up some of the ignorance.

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    https://electrek.co/2019/10/11/frey-...ke-suspension/

    https://electrek.co/2020/02/11/m2s-a...ension-e-bike/


    Quote Originally Posted by richde View Post
    Are those bikes legal on trails in the US? Might as well post a link to a KTM 450, it's about as clever as what you did. No they're not and you know they aren't. Pretty sad state of affairs when even the mods are trolling.
    Well, he’s not trolling because that 1200 watt ebike looks like a legal ebike, making it a legal ebike by default. A KTM 450 looks and sounds nothing like an ebike that has either more or less than 750watts, so not a clever comparison by you in any way.

    Regardless, that was one of the big points the ex trek exec was making. How would anyone (landmanager) know that those ebikes put out 1200 watts? Land managers can easily identify a KTM 450 from an ebike however. Making a trail legal for class 1 or 2 ebikes is essentially making it legal for those 1200watt ebikes as there is no practical way to differentiate between them. And since that is the case, the 1200 watt ebikes become legal by default as there is not way to enforce the class system.

    If it’s legal to sell and buy 1200 watt ebikes that look no different than
    <750watt ebikes, then there going to be used where <750 watt ebikes are used with no restrictions. That’s just the way it is and that’s a legit and serious problem for the ebike industry.
    Get out of the gutter and onto the mountain top.

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    I was in the city today and saw the new levo sl. Pretty nice. They had the battery ejected and a motor cut out for people to view. Actually i thought it would be more complicated. I might post them on the levo thread check there if anyone is interested.

    I took the time to ask what the dealer sales people thought about ebikes, where they were headed, applications, their experience. I was suprised by what they said. Here are a few comments.

    One said they will get more and more powerful.
    This person also said we will likely see alot of trail closures from hikers who complain about getting startled, etc by how fast they go. But also said they wont be mainstream bikes for everyone as they are too expensive.

    I also asked/stated, but the levo Sl with its light weight means you can ride it after the battery is out or just ride normally. To which i heard. No one rides an ebike after the battery is dead! Period! It doesnt matter how heavy/light. The type of people who ride an ebike only ride them when they are motorized.

    Another said that the levo was nice but rides a much cheaper and less capable model as its not affordable. Also stated they had lots of experience riding them (it was this salespersons bike area)

    Another said they will dominate Bike sales In the near future.

    This is just feedback i got today. Not bull ship.

    anyone asked the same questions around their local bike shops?

    i also found the santa cruz ebike promotion interesting. I feel it relevant to this thread to see how/where they think their bike fits into current trends.

    https://www.santacruzbicycles.com/en...heckler-launch

  109. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by richde View Post
    I can't run a marathon, but I bet I could if I put in the time to train for it....I bet most people could. Putting out >1,000w for a few seconds isn't any different, it's probably easier than that once you figure out the right technique. force*velocity, figure it out.

    But I guess I shouldn't be surprised by close minded ignorance, and I can only assume the last thing you want to address is the rest of that post that you decided to cherry pick.


    Are you naturally this unpleasant or did you have to train for it?


    Actually I've been working pretty hard lately to produce more watts but so far all I can manage is about the peak power of a Turbo Levo and I can only hold that for a few seconds. I admit I'm jealous of highly trained pros and cat 1's who can lay down 1200w for 5 or 10 seconds. You may poke fun at my weakness now if you want, I'm expecting it.
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    I predict a lot more novice riders getting good and hurt on e- bikes. Properly.

    It feels a lot like the very early days of dirt bikes, where dirt bikes were very slow, and appeared to be a totally non serious easy way for non athletes to go have fun in a manner they had no experience with.

    Talk to anyone from the golden era of dirt bikes ('60s-'70s) when even with a much smaller overall population manufacturers were selling 10x the dirt bikes they do now. They all witnessed a lot of non motorcyclists off themselves completely which eventually led to the downfall of the sport in mass.

    The sport went from being considered cute, fun, and easy to the realization that it's actually quite dangerous and needs to be taken very seriously.

    We are all enthusiasts, but rest assured that totally unqualified people will soon be renting e-bikes while on vacations and hitting the trails.
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    Just stumbled across this headline,

    “ E-BIKES GO FAST, AND E-BIKES ARE HEAVY, SO IT'S IMPORTANT TO HAVE A FORK THAT CAN HANDLE THE PUNISHMENT ALL THAT WEIGHT AND MOMENTUM DISHES OUT. FOX HAVE JUST RELEASED E-BIKE OPTIMISED VARIANTS OF THE 34 AND 36, AND WE'VE GOT ONE ON TEST.”

    https://flowmountainbike.com/tests/f...mised-34-fork/

    Sounds to me that that is code for more trail damage,
    especially since it is written in all caps.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    Avid is spelled wrong, there should be an 'O' in there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Actually I've been working pretty hard lately to produce more watts but so far all I can manage is about the peak power of a Turbo Levo and I can only hold that for a few seconds. I admit I'm jealous of highly trained pros and cat 1's who can lay down 1200w for 5 or 10 seconds. You may poke fun at my weakness now if you want, I'm expecting it.
    Here is some data comparing a road climb vs a single track climb. Seems like it justifies the lower levo sl power output. Unless we think specialized doesnt know what they are doing. But it also supports the idea we dont need higher and higher ebike power.

    https://fascatcoaching.com/tips/mountain-bike-power/


    If anyone knows anyone over at specialized.... send me a pm. Id like to get in touch.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuse6F View Post

    Spoiler Alert! Dont watch it if your trying to prove that the points in the presentation are nothing but ehate!
    Yes, it's clear that few of the commenters actually watched the video. He spoke about the disconnect between industry and the advocates who actually get trails built and maintained. To me, this is the biggest part, not erosion or anything. The funding and approval for our latest trail project was based on the fact that it was a nonmotorized trail system. If the land managers have rules about motorized trail or construction, if the people with relationships and funding have rules or missions based on non/motorized divide, then eMTBers should expect not to get any help without bringing something to the table. But it is convenient for me that eMTB community has shown little to no value to my area, it makes my decisions easy.

  115. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuse6F View Post
    Was thinking the same on the santa cruz add. Gonna need good insurance for the helicopter to come lift so and so off the mountain. Cause walking out would be a real problem.

    The add pretty much hammers home everything we are discussing here.


    Spoiler Alert! Dont watch it if your trying to prove that the points in the presentation are nothing but ehate!
    I guess it all depends on perspective when reviewing the Santa Cruz ad. I love and embrace ebikes and you clearly don't. I see more fun and adventure on trails that are hardly ridden because they are just so far off the beaten path. I do believe they were actually talking to trail builders as well and how ebikes are going to help reconnect all the little towns together. Help bring prosperity back to these community. I saw it as a very positive ad as I'm sure just about all the ebike fans and I imagine quite a sizable future emtb riders out there. And trust me, there is a lot out there and every month the negativity towards ebikes gets smaller and smaller

    Amazing what a 1/2 glass empty person see into this ad

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    I wouldn't use a eBike but I could care less if I saw one on the trails.

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    Quote Originally Posted by singletrackmack View Post
    https://electrek.co/2019/10/11/frey-...ke-suspension/

    https://electrek.co/2020/02/11/m2s-a...ension-e-bike/




    Well, he’s not trolling because that 1200 watt ebike looks like a legal ebike, making it a legal ebike by default. A KTM 450 looks and sounds nothing like an ebike that has either more or less than 750watts, so not a clever comparison by you in any way.

    Regardless, that was one of the big points the ex trek exec was making. How would anyone (landmanager) know that those ebikes put out 1200 watts? Land managers can easily identify a KTM 450 from an ebike however. Making a trail legal for class 1 or 2 ebikes is essentially making it legal for those 1200watt ebikes as there is no practical way to differentiate between them. And since that is the case, the 1200 watt ebikes become legal by default as there is not way to enforce the class system.

    If it’s legal to sell and buy 1200 watt ebikes that look no different than
    <750watt ebikes, then there going to be used where <750 watt ebikes are used with no restrictions. That’s just the way it is and that’s a legit and serious problem for the ebike industry.
    Thank goodness these are exceptions and far and few from the norm from what I've been seeing on the trails. I have not seen a bike like this on actual trails. If we are talking about what we see on the bike paths and street, then all bets are off. As most people are just looking for a fast, cheap commuter bike to get them from point A to point B. Luckily for us, riding true mountain bike trails actually takes skill.

  118. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbbiker View Post
    I guess it all depends on perspective when reviewing the Santa Cruz ad. I love and embrace ebikes and you clearly don't. I see more fun and adventure on trails that are hardly ridden because they are just so far off the beaten path. I do believe they were actually talking to trail builders as well and how ebikes are going to help reconnect all the little towns together. Help bring prosperity back to these community. I saw it as a very positive ad as I'm sure just about all the ebike fans and I imagine quite a sizable future emtb riders out there. And trust me, there is a lot out there and every month the negativity towards ebikes gets smaller and smaller

    Amazing what a 1/2 glass empty person see into this ad
    I can see your point. Its hard to get a full message across in a paragraph. I would happily ride an ebike anytime. Though Im not purchasing one for a variety of reasons.

    The add definitely makes me want to go ride there!!! Perhaps we will run into each other there this summer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Are you naturally this unpleasant or did you have to train for it?


    Actually I've been working pretty hard lately to produce more watts but so far all I can manage is about the peak power of a Turbo Levo and I can only hold that for a few seconds. I admit I'm jealous of highly trained pros and cat 1's who can lay down 1200w for 5 or 10 seconds. You may poke fun at my weakness now if you want, I'm expecting it.
    Why do you expect pleasantness when you act unpleasantly?

    You take an off-topic comment and run with it ignoring the rest of the post...you clearly want to argue but don't want to stick to the subject at hand. God forbid you comment on the red herring I was pointing out, better make some ad hominem attack. Is that supposed to be "pleasant" behavior? Ever hear that saying about how respect is earned? The pleasantness you desire starts in you.

    I'd put you in the "most people" camp by default, because I'm not sure how else it could be interpreted, so you're just showing how you're the one looking for a argument. Most people don't try to get max sub-30 second power because it's wasteful and has no real application in their riding, so they don't know if they can do it or not. All of which is on top of the fact that most people don't even use power meters and have no real idea of what they are or aren't capable of.

  120. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by singletrackmack View Post
    https://electrek.co/2019/10/11/frey-...ke-suspension/

    https://electrek.co/2020/02/11/m2s-a...ension-e-bike/




    Well, he’s not trolling because that 1200 watt ebike looks like a legal ebike, making it a legal ebike by default. A KTM 450 looks and sounds nothing like an ebike that has either more or less than 750watts, so not a clever comparison by you in any way.

    Regardless, that was one of the big points the ex trek exec was making. How would anyone (landmanager) know that those ebikes put out 1200 watts? Land managers can easily identify a KTM 450 from an ebike however. Making a trail legal for class 1 or 2 ebikes is essentially making it legal for those 1200watt ebikes as there is no practical way to differentiate between them. And since that is the case, the 1200 watt ebikes become legal by default as there is not way to enforce the class system.

    If it’s legal to sell and buy 1200 watt ebikes that look no different than
    <750watt ebikes, then there going to be used where <750 watt ebikes are used with no restrictions. That’s just the way it is and that’s a legit and serious problem for the ebike industry.
    Point being that they aren't the bikes we're referring to and he should either know it, or figure out what he's talking about before weighing in.

    Looks have nothing to do with it, and just because you want to wave the same red herring around doesn't make his ignorant trollish comment any less ignorant or trollish..and only serves to make you ignorant and trollish.

    It's also legal to sell a 150hp semi-off road adventure motorcycle, and they could possibly be taken on MTB trails. But like the rest of what you're talking about, that's not the point because THEY ARE NOT ALLOWED.

    Illegal ebikes look like legal ebikes that look like non-assisted bikes, so ban all the bikes is the clear answer you're ignorantly driving towards.

  121. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuse6F View Post
    You should train for one.
    I don't want to, but I'm not going to look down on someone that does...unlike you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuse6F View Post
    Are you saying that Once the motor has given its 540 watts of power any extra is given by you. Eg, 541watts then 540 is by bike and 1 by the rider.

    Assuming the bike was set to full assist.
    No, I never said that. You think that because you don't do any research. How about you figure out how ebikes work before commenting on them...you know that whole "more research is needed" thing you keep whining about.

    More research does need to be done, by you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fuse6F View Post
    Sure wish you would take the time to explain.

    would help to clean up some of the ignorance.
    5% isn't statistically relevant. Say it was 10cm of dirt displaced by a regular bike, so it would be 10.5cm displaced by an ebike after what...600 runs, by real humans. Not only would it be difficult to tell the difference without precision measurement, human variability and basic randomness makes the difference irrelevant.

    That difference could come down to the added weight, so I suppose a cure to your sudden concern about trail damage would be to institute a weight limit for the trails.

    How about we go for 230lbs combined bike and rider, seem fair? I mean we should all be concerned about trail damage and it's pretty obvious that a heavier bike and rider will have more impact on the trail surface, right?

    Let me guess, that wasn't what you were actually worried about, was it?

    It's baffling why you guys don't think about the implications of your red herring arguments about power, weight and range.

  123. #123
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    Ebikes are in a rapid development phase that affect everyone This includes analog, ebike, hikers, animals, advocates, enforcement, access rights, etc. We might not all agree on the what where and how. It will take careful planning and some compromise here and there to fit in all concerns. Hopefully it turns out positive and we all benefit from it.

    Have a safe season out there!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuse6F View Post
    Ebikes are in a rapid development phase that affect everyone This includes analog, ebike, hikers, animals, advocates, enforcement, access rights, etc. We might not all agree on the what where and how. It will take careful planning and some compromise here and there to fit in all concerns. Hopefully it turns out positive and we all benefit from it.

    Have a safe season out there!
    From your posts, you're not looking for a positive resolution because you're approaching it from such a negative perspective.

    Land managers have for the most part decided that they don't care, because every concern about ebikes is also a concern about all bikes, whether it's power, weight, range or even risk.

    They're powerful, so are some people.
    They're heavy, so are some people.
    They can ride farther, so can some people.
    You can get hurt, it's a risky sport for everyone.

    The SMART way to approach it, if you actually care about trail access, is to welcome ebike riders so we can all be stronger together. If you don't care about those things, go ahead and alienate a segment of the population and give the people who don't want any bikes the ammunitions to kick everyone off the trails...just because some people decided to spend some extra money to be able to climb faster than you can.

  125. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by richde View Post
    From your posts, you're not looking for a positive resolution because you're approaching it from such a negative perspective.

    Land managers have for the most part decided that they don't care, because every concern about ebikes is also a concern about all bikes, whether it's power, weight, range or even risk.

    They're powerful, so are some people.
    They're heavy, so are some people.
    They can ride farther, so can some people.
    You can get hurt, it's a risky sport for everyone.

    The SMART way to approach it, if you actually care about trail access, is to welcome ebike riders so we can all be stronger together. If you don't care about those things, go ahead and alienate a segment of the population and give the people who don't want any bikes the ammunitions to kick everyone off the trails...just because some people decided to spend some extra money to be able to climb faster than you can.
    Yes, yes, YES! As Ben Franklin famously said, "We must all hang together or most assuredly we will all hang separately..."

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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbbiker View Post
    I guess it all depends on perspective when reviewing the Santa Cruz ad. I love and embrace ebikes and you clearly don't. I see more fun and adventure on trails that are hardly ridden because they are just so far off the beaten path.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fuse6F View Post

    i also found the santa cruz ebike promotion interesting. I feel it relevant to this thread to see how/where they think their bike fits into current trends.

    https://www.santacruzbicycles.com/en...heckler-launch


    You guys realize every single one of the trails shown in the Santa Cruz ad are moto trails right? Basically all the main downeville trails are ORIGINALLY Moto trails that MTB's co-opted. I've ridden them all on my yz450f (which by the way puts out 35, 000 watts without me pedaling at all). They are super fun on a moto. I'm pretty sure my single digit number of laps on those trails probably did more damage than 5 years of hordes of e-bikers might do. And nobody up there cares.

    This talk about e-bikes being on those trails is hilarious.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuse6F View Post
    No one rides an ebike after the battery is dead! Period! It doesnt matter how heavy/light. The type of people who ride an ebike only ride them when they are motorized.
    I've ridden plenty of miles on my YT Decoy with the motor off. The Shimano motor has pretty much zero drag when it's in off mode. Wouldn't make sense to ride it with the motor on while I'm riding with my friend on analog bikes.

  128. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini2k05 View Post

    No one rides an ebike after the battery is dead! Period! It doesnt matter how heavy/light. The type of people who ride an ebike only ride them when they are motorized.


    I've ridden plenty of miles on my YT Decoy with the motor off. The Shimano motor has pretty much zero drag when it's in off mode. Wouldn't make sense to ride it with the motor on while I'm riding with my friend on analog bikes.
    Hi. Thanks for the post.

    I just wanted to clarify that the quote you cut out above was a the response given to me by the salesperson when asked about pedalling ebikes. Please dont take it as my statement.

  129. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuse6F View Post
    https://www.vitalmtb.com/forums/The-...-E-Bikes,10793



    here is a discussion of some of the issues around ebikes and trail access and where ebikes could/are headed.

    so i linked it over here to get some discussion going.

    i assume its okay to discuss issues directly related to ebikes in the ebike forum?!
    Vadeboncoeur‘s proposal for a “trail class” eBike matches the Specialized SL pretty well except for the 20 mph cutout; its 240 watts PEAK output is what I though I was getting when I bought my “250 watt” Haibike, which actually puts out 500 watts and is labeled as 500 watts on the class I sticker. If Specialized sells a lot of the SL bikes, the trail class might be viable if assist is also limited to 15mph max. This wouldn’t change how I ride much, other than my commute being a few minutes longer and having to gear down more an finesse the climbs.

    End the madness; stop the power race.

    My local trails are open to eBikes and no one hates on me there, but I’m in Arizona which is a bit more live and let live because we have so many trails.

  130. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by hikerdave View Post
    My local trails are open to eBikes and no one hates on me there, but I’m in Arizona which is a bit more live and let live because we have so many trails.

    No one hates you here either, enjoy the ride!
    I brake for stinkbugs

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    Can someone explain the speed cut off to me? Since to me there should just be a hard cut off at 250 watts how you use those watts is up to you.

    Limit the watts via diodes and mosfets jail break the the computer and poof goes the electronics.

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    When an ebike hits its cutoff speed, it stops applying electricity to the motor. If the motor is giving everything it has, plus the input of the rider, it is possible to still go less than the speed limit on a steep hill. In that case, the actual wattage put to the motor may be more than the number on the sticker.
    The Myth of Ebike Wattage - EbikeSchool.com

    Rider input is not part of the equation. If you want to nerd out on rider power, check this out.
    https://www.cyclinganalytics.com/blo...output-compare

  133. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by aoliver View Post
    When an ebike hits its cutoff speed, it stops applying electricity to the motor. If the motor is giving everything it has, plus the input of the rider, it is possible to still go less than the speed limit on a steep hill. In that case, the actual wattage put to the motor may be more than the number on the sticker.
    The Myth of Ebike Wattage - EbikeSchool.com

    Rider input is not part of the equation. If you want to nerd out on rider power, check this out.
    https://www.cyclinganalytics.com/blo...output-compare
    Oh I know how the speed limit works I guess I should've asked why have it to begin with. Just make a hard restriction on watts and the amount of assist is self regulating until you let the magic blue smoke out.

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    Well I was a former ebike basher that has now eaten his words. I hated every aspect of the ebike. Drove me nuts seeing them on the trails. Here in CA there pretty much legal everywhere a regular bike is. I’m a avid rider. 4-5 times a week. 500k-600k elevation a year. 40-50 mile days no problem. I’m 46 so it’s not like I need it. This past weekend I rented a Levo SL to ride at my favorite place Henry Coe. If anyone has ever ridden there they know what the climbs are like. 15% for 2+ miles sometimes. Ive gotten use to hiking most of those climbs because they are unridable to me. That SL was stupid fun. All those climbs I had to hike I was able to climb in trail mode. I was still working my ass off but giggling the whole way up. I rode for 27 miles 6.5K feet. The bike still had 29% battery left. My average heart rate for those 4 hours was 146bpm. So yes I’m a fellow ebike hater that has now eaten his words.....More will be on the way. They just have to ride it

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vin829 View Post
    All those climbs I had to hike I was able to climb in trail mode. I was still working my ass off but giggling the whole way up.
    When I was younger, I used to love cleaning long (and technical) climbs, but as an "older gentleman" ha ha, I find I can once attack those climbs with confidence, but in eco or trail mode. Momentum, picking lines, shifting weight, ratcheting pedals, all those natural skills - PLUS young man power and torque to make it happen. Fun stuff for sure.

  136. #136
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    I updated the Original post to include the correct link to the article instead of a link to a forum as well as copied in the entire article for reference.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuse6F View Post
    Many of the responses About the experts points being wrong were wrong. We should hear from Everyone. Especially those who are building trails and trying to improve trail access, people who devoted their careers to making a living with and around bikes. Even from those who might be new to the sport as fresh perspectives can bring fresh ideas.




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