Fazua Evation drive system- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    Fazua Evation drive system

    Fazua (https://fazua.com/en/) is a German company that has introduced an new e-bike drive system, called Evasion, with a number of unique features. The drive consists of a removable module that integrates cleanly within the downtube of the bike and contains both a battery and the drive motor for the system.

    With this approach, an Evasion-based e-bike can remove both the battery AND the motor, allowing the rider to use the bicycle as a conventional, non-assisted bicycle with only a modest increase in weight. A complete Evation system adds about 10 pounds of weight to the bicycle, with 70% removable, compared to conventional mid-drive solutions that add 14 or more pounds to the bike with only half of that removable, if the battery is removable at all. Furthermore, with both the battery and motor removed, an Evasion-based eMTB may attract less attention when ridden as an unassisted bike on trails where eMTB use is restricted.

    The Fazua solution allows for particularly discrete, stealthy integrations. Evation-equipped e-bikes may be difficult to tell apart from any number of conventional non-assisted bicycles. That feature alone may appeal to many.

    To achieve its compact dimensions, Fazua has decided to integrate a relatively modest 250Wh battery, roughly half to a third the size of more mainstream solutions. Peak torque for the system is 60 Nm, but peak power and assist levels are less than other solutions. Fazua recommends riders consider carrying extra battery modules if they desire range not afforded by the smaller battery, and at 3 pounds per battery module carrying an extra battery or two is not difficult. Fazua is not trying to compete with other systems on power but rather to provide enough assistance in a more appealing package.

    The LaPierre eZesty is an early model eMTB that has integrated the Evation system and has been getting some early press. Notable for the eZesty is how beautifully integrated the drive system is and how completely conventional the bike's appearance is despite it's assisted nature. Lots of reviews are popping up for this model.

    LaPierre is not alone, though, as other manufactures are actively developing Fazua-based models. See here for an extensive list of Fazua partners.

    eMTB is not the only class of bike showing interest in the system, either. Road and gravel bikes are in active development, including bikes from Look, Pinarello and Ridley among quite a few others. This bike from Donnelly looks especially interesting.

    So, is this lighter, more modular approach to electric assist the future of eMTB?

  2. #2
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    My wife’s cooking pasta fazua tonight! JK, thanks for the insight. I’m happy with the big battery bikes, suits my needs.
    Why is my power bill so high?

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    Very good looking bike! And honestly, I’m glad that we mountain bikers have so many good options! For me, this system is not a good fit! As I said before, I think it’s gear towards a very fit rider or a rider who likes to ride alone.

    This bike would be at a disadvantage if riding with other emtbs (Shimano, Bosch, Yamaha, Brose). If I were riding with a another Emtb Fazau rider and I’m in trail mode, the Fazau would have to be in a higher assist mode. The Fazau rider would be able to keep up, but their range would be less. Requiring another battery.

    And I think this is the problem Craigsj was trying to state. And this would seem like only a problem if trying to keep up with other emtbs in trail mode. In car terms, the Fazau would have to be run wide open/full throttle everywhere just to keep up with the traditional emtbs riding in trail mode. That alone is going to wear the motor and battery faster than a traditional emtb. Hopefully that makes sense?

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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbbiker View Post
    And I think this is the problem Craigsj was trying to state. ... In car terms, the Fazau would have to be run wide open/full throttle everywhere just to keep up with the traditional emtbs riding in trail mode. That alone is going to wear the motor and battery faster than a traditional emtb.
    Right, and my intention was not to make those comments about Fazua specifically but about the tendency to think that a good solution to lowering weight is to use a much smaller battery.

    I think there's a tendency to see the Fazua system as two-thirds or three-quarters of the power of other eMTB drives based on it's peak power and torque figures, but you also have to consider that it's only half or a third the power of other systems from a battery standpoint. These batteries wear out sooner under stress and, while this may be a good tradeoff, potential buyers should be aware that a Fazua bike is better suited to lower power use or else they should expect more frequent battery replacement.

    Also, there's a tendency to shoot the messenger here. People should want to understand the strengths and weaknesses, and while the small light battery has definite appeal, it comes with weaknesses. Remember, the battery is the heart of electric assist, the motor just transfers the power from the battery to the wheel.

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    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj View Post
    Right, and my intention was not to make those comments about Fazua specifically but about the tendency to think that a good solution to lowering weight is to use a much smaller battery.

    I think there's a tendency to see the Fazua system as two-thirds or three-quarters of the power of other eMTB drives based on it's peak power and torque figures, but you also have to consider that it's only half or a third the power of other systems from a battery standpoint. These batteries wear out sooner under stress and, while this may be a good tradeoff, potential buyers should be aware that a Fazua bike is better suited to lower power use or else they should expect more frequent battery replacement.

    Also, there's a tendency to shoot the messenger here. People should want to understand the strengths and weaknesses, and while the small light battery has definite appeal, it comes with weaknesses. Remember, the battery is the heart of electric assist, the motor just transfers the power from the battery to the wheel.
    For me it is a mentality problem.
    If about 6 pounds lighter is better, in 2 years it will be lighter to still be better and bikes will not be reliable.
    That electronic mentality new is allways better is just a lie.
    Lets wait until they prove themselves.
    Well this is my position.
    My saddle and seat post are 20 years old and they do the job.

  6. #6
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    Thank you for the info!!!!

    What the Fazua does is offer another option in the category. It is very underserved market and folks want something that does not weigh 20 lbs more and look like a behemoth.

    The key is modularity. Bigger motor, slap. Bigger battery or another one, slap, slap.

    The fact that the whole system can be removed is incredible and will attract a lot of new buyers. Whether owners will actually remove it and ride it like that regularly remains to be seen.

    Anybody know how much this systems cost?
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj View Post
    Right, and my intention was not to make those comments about Fazua specifically but about the tendency to think that a good solution to lowering weight is to use a much smaller battery.

    I think there's a tendency to see the Fazua system as two-thirds or three-quarters of the power of other eMTB drives based on it's peak power and torque figures, but you also have to consider that it's only half or a third the power of other systems from a battery standpoint. These batteries wear out sooner under stress and, while this may be a good tradeoff, potential buyers should be aware that a Fazua bike is better suited to lower power use or else they should expect more frequent battery replacement.

    Also, there's a tendency to shoot the messenger here. People should want to understand the strengths and weaknesses, and while the small light battery has definite appeal, it comes with weaknesses. Remember, the battery is the heart of electric assist, the motor just transfers the power from the battery to the wheel.
    The downsides to a smaller battery is range. A smaller 36v doesn't have any more stress then a larger 36v under the same load (same cells), at least in my experience. This isn't about attacking the messenger, but if you are the only source of information on a subject, you need to provide some info to back up your claim or walk back your claim.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fc View Post
    Thank you for the info!!!!

    What the Fazua does is offer another option in the category. It is very underserved market and folks want something that does not weigh 20 lbs more and look like a behemoth.

    The key is modularity. Bigger motor, slap. Bigger battery or another one, slap, slap.

    The fact that the whole system can be removed is incredible and will attract a lot of new buyers. Whether owners will actually remove it and ride it like that regularly remains to be seen.

    Anybody know how much this systems cost?
    Being able to remove both the motor and battery to create a normal mountain bike is a huge convenience out here in the Western USA where so many trails are inaccessible for eBikes. It’s like having two bikes in one.
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    Dropping half the battery capacity for 1.21 kg (2.67 lbs) of weight savings, compared to a 504 Wh battery (Shimano 2.59 kg vs Fazua 1.38 kg).

    Needs to be hinged open to be powered on from deep sleep.

    Battery needs to be removed from the drivepack to be recharged.

    BB/sensor unit (1.31 kg) and motor drivepack (1.92 kg) weighs more (3.23 kg) than competitors, such as Shimano E8000 (2.88 kg + magnet sensors).



    Just filling in the other side of the story. Don't need dozens of posts hyping the modular design, only listing the weight of the motor and battery (complete weight is 4.61 kg + remote display + wire weight), the more integrated and sleeker look, plus the ability to use all the downtube space as storage without a battery/motor, to hit some middle ground between emtbs and mtbs. An interested buyer would be disappointed if they found out the hard way about this.

    This system gets my hopes up, of seeing a share system where people can head to a battery charge/storage station, and swap out their battery for a fresh one conveniently. I just consider it to be high fantasy to imagine a society where people are able to share peacefully...

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj View Post
    Right, and my intention was not to make those comments about Fazua specifically but about the tendency to think that a good solution to lowering weight is to use a much smaller battery.

    I think there's a tendency to see the Fazua system as two-thirds or three-quarters of the power of other eMTB drives based on it's peak power and torque figures, but you also have to consider that it's only half or a third the power of other systems from a battery standpoint. These batteries wear out sooner under stress and, while this may be a good tradeoff, potential buyers should be aware that a Fazua bike is better suited to lower power use or else they should expect more frequent battery replacement.

    Also, there's a tendency to shoot the messenger here. People should want to understand the strengths and weaknesses, and while the small light battery has definite appeal, it comes with weaknesses. Remember, the battery is the heart of electric assist, the motor just transfers the power from the battery to the wheel.
    Yes, to get reasonable capacity a conventional eBike battery is 4x10 lightly loaded cells but Fazua is probably 2x10. Switching out two batteries is not the same; those five hundred dollar batteries are going to become a consumable, especially for riders who switch into “Rocket Mode” too often.
    "Thank you, God, for letting me have another day"
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    Quote Originally Posted by hikerdave View Post
    Yes, to get reasonable capacity a conventional eBike battery is 4x10 lightly loaded cells but Fazua is probably 2x10. Switching out two batteries is not the same; those five hundred dollar batteries are going to become a consumable, especially for riders who switch into “Rocket Mode” too often.
    *350 dollar batteries*

    Lunacycle has a puny 6ah battery that can pull 1500 watts continuous and still gets 400 to 1000 cycles which is the exact same number they give to their 24ah (4times bigger). The theory that a smaller battery poops out quicker seems to be lost on one of the biggest eBike battery distributers/manufacturers in the US.

    https://lunacycle.com/52v-mighty-min...-6ah-3-pounds/

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    Quote Originally Posted by figofspee View Post
    A smaller 36v doesn't have any more stress then a larger 36v under the same load (same cells), at least in my experience.
    Yes it does, and it is completely intuitive to anyone that thinks even a moment about it. 36V is irrelevant.

    Quote Originally Posted by figofspee View Post
    This isn't about attacking the messenger...
    Yes it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by figofspee View Post
    ...but if you are the only source of information on a subject, you need to provide some info to back up your claim or walk back your claim.
    Something I did and that you dismissed and a standard you don't apply to yourself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by figofspee View Post
    Lunacycle has a puny 6ah battery that can pull 1500 watts continuous and still gets 400 to 1000 cycles...
    Not the same cells as in Fazua, and where is your independently sourced data to back up your claims?

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    How about extrapolating from known data, rather than rely on someone else's interpretation, regarding battery loads, and how light and heavy ones affect a battery over the course of its usable lifetime?



    Due to lack of data on Fazua, lets just not consider it and work off of how a Shimano STEPS E8000 motor would behave with a 20 cell battery, instead of the usual 40 cell battery. It's a 36 V system that can achieve a peak of 500 W, but supposedly is engineered for 250 W continuous/nominal (perhaps limited by heat dissipation). That's 13.89 peak amps, and 6.94 amps continuous.

    Let's grab some data from an individual cell, that makes up these battery packs. Here's the datasheet on the cells that Luna uses in that battery mentioned above, Samsung 30Q: https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/06...spec-sheet.pdf



    This can be interpreted as showing how the battery's max capacity steadily drops as a fast charge (4 A to 4.2V) and discharge (to 2.5V) cycle is repeated. That discharge to 2.5V is considered a deep discharge; shallower discharges are known to preserve battery life better, but this is more of a test to determine high discharge rates effect on battery capacity retention.



    What happens if you increase the discharge rate to 22 amps? The capacity is lost at a slightly higher rate; capacity after 250 cycles is comparable to capacity after 300 cycles at a lower discharge rate.

    The Luna pack above is designed for a motor that's capable of 25+ amps.

    ----

    Facts are one thing, but feelings and opinion/interpretation tend to be stronger. How do I feel about this data? Sure, you can extrapolate that lower load is better for the battery, but I feel this is moot for the Fazua, especially if the owners buy a second pack and swap, essentially splitting the recharge cycles in virtually half, shared between the batteries. It's $350 for a 250 Wh Fazua spare battery, vs $600 for a 504 Wh spare for Shimano (BT-E8010). Considering that you have to charge off-bike anyways, the Fazua's almost a must for convenience, and makes it so you can virtually be riding and charging at the same time, whereas the Shimano owner probably thinks their 1 battery is sufficient and rely on human power if needed, and always dealing with the burden of a heavier battery.

    Regarding discharge rates, I feel that commercial ebike loads are very light. There's a reason why there's a market for hot rodding these things to be so much more powerful, because there's headroom to allow for it. I wonder about popular bike headlights and their discharge rates now too, but I digress. Tesla may use similar cells, but they use temperature control technology to keep the cells working at an optimal temperature. I believe that temperature is probably the real argument--higher recharge current, higher discharge current result in higher temps, and keeping temps under control keeps the batteries happier. Wisdom says not to store batteries fully charged since it's affected by temperature, and because the batteries themselves seem to physically change as they are at different charge states (e.g. testing a battery's charge level by dropping it lightly, and listening for a thunk or thud, or maybe they swell up at higher charge?)--there's data on how storage affects the battery in the above datasheet. There's stories of how Nissan Leaf batteries failed due to lack of engineering to account for winter driving conditions. In my experience, battery voltage drops in winter's cold temps, and an ebike may feel like they are losing capacity sooner, probably even refusing to turn on if you let it cool during a long break, despite being sure that it had a decent amount of power left before your stop.

    Regarding something called depth of discharge, I feel that this is a rider responsibility. I know some people developed habits with old NiCad batteries to avoid memory, to try and do deep discharges before recharging, but they need to change such habits with lithium (and NiMH) to recharge often, if they wish to keep the batteries healthy. Swap the batteries out and recharge often.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Fazua Evation drive system-1217977d1537938707-shimano-brose-bosch-yamaha-giant-rocky-motors.jpg  

    Fazua Evation drive system-br18kas.png  

    Fazua Evation drive system-m6ufnl0.png  


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    It's a shame that the same people feel the need to pick their same fights in another thread.

    In the other thread, information was provided that explained why the Samsung 30Q behaves much differently in this regard to the cells used in eMTB batteries. Any analysis of that cell cannot be "extrapolated" to these packs.

    Furthermore, it's not important whether ninja feels that "ebike loads are very light", it's important to know what the loads are RELATIVE TO BATTERY SIZE. That's the entire point.

    When too few cells are used for a given load, the cells suffer accelerated aging. There is literally no dispute over this no matter how are ninja and figofspee try to throw doubt on the subject. The question is how bad this is, and with high energy cells it is significant. Anyone can do their own research if they are curious, it's a completely understood topic among engineers.

    At this point it seems to me this is a moderation problem.

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    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj View Post
    Not the same cells as in Fazua, and where is your independently sourced data to back up your claims?
    The cool thing about a modular system is that fazua or anybody for that matter can manufacture a battery with any cells they want.

    The cells in 6ah are the same as the 24ah battery that for some reason has the same number of cycles. Care to explain?

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    Quote Originally Posted by figofspee View Post
    The cool thing about a modular system is that fazua or anybody for that matter can manufacture a battery with any cells they want.

    The cells in 6ah are the same as the 24ah battery that for some reason has the same number of cycles. Care to explain?
    Show a single example of Fazua battery with 30Q cells. Show a single example of a 3rd party battery for Fazua. Show an example of any 3rd party battery using 30Q cells for ANY commercial eMTB solution. Show any evidence that Fazua allows others to manufacture batteries. Show how the existence of any of these imaginary batteries is relevant to whether Fazua battery wear. Show your independent data to back up your claims.

    30Q cells are the solution to the problem I've presented as they are specifically designed for higher loads. 30Q cells aren't used in the Fazua battery. figofspee knows this, at this point he's just trolling.

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    Completely understood topic among engineers...

    Anyone can do their own research...

    Question is how bad this is, and with "high energy cells" it's "significant"...

    Moderation problem: waaah help, someone's posting research here to make it so my fear-mongering claims aren't just thanked blindly by people too lazy to do their own research, when they can just conveniently read it here. Delete it all!

    ---

    Fear of the unknown can be comforted by knowledge, rather than creating an emotional support club based on avoiding speculative bad scenarios. Just cause you're scared of small batteries, doesn't mean others should be. It seems more like you got some imaginative insecurity problem. Gotta have some overcompensation in case some someone wants to pull up with a Levo w/700 Wh battery next to you and compare battery size through the "craigsj standardized test". Join the big battery club, cause of all these reasons: Levos with 700 Wh batteries exist and 250 Wh batteries won't cut it in a comparison, because "high energy cells" have "significant" bad questionability...

    Let people choose. Present all the facts to consider, and let their feelings be the decision maker. The Fazua rider can have multiple batteries to compare, since it's designed to be swappable. The weight savings is questionable if you're carrying a spare, sure, but it's where the weight is that is a difference; less to lift with your arms, but maybe a bit more on your ass when you sit. Maybe some appreciate that value over just having 1 big battery.

    How serious is the "aging"? If a Fazua owner ditches the battery after 200 cycles, how many miles and years is that? Even if 30 miles per cycle is the max, and 15 is the expected (3000-6000 miles over 200 cycles), consider that spread out over their spare batteries. Who knows, maybe a high mileage rider might actually like this system over a bigger battery.

    Seriously, is your mechanical sympathy really that strong that you'd lash out in disrespectful anger against people who question if wearing out a battery sooner really is a big deal, to influence people to join some big battery club? What kind of weird bullying is this? Are you an engineer?

    I see people as adaptable, and expect people to pace things out in order to not run out too soon, which I feel generates the maximum kind of satisfaction. If you have a lot of tap, some might see it a shame to not make use of it--this results in big battery club using more energy from the battery and less from their body. Who would you rather be, the Fazua rider or Levo rider, on the same ride? That's the real question.

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    Instead of using cheap readily available cells with no discernable cycle variation, fazua chose to use cells that that have a lifespan that is five times shorter then comparable batteries on the market. This would make good business sense in that they would sell a ton more batteries, but it seems hard to believe, and no evidence has provided that they have done so. This could be interpreted as slander.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by ninjichor View Post
    Completely understood topic among engineers...

    Anyone can do their own research...

    Question is how bad this is, and with "high energy cells" it's "significant"...

    Moderation problem: waaah help, someone's posting research here to make it so my fear-mongering claims aren't just thanked blindly by people too lazy to do their own research, when they can just conveniently read it here. Delete it all!

    ---

    Fear of the unknown can be comforted by knowledge, rather than creating an emotional support club. Just cause you're scared of small batteries, doesn't mean others should be. It seems more like you got some imaginative insecurity problem. Gotta have some overcompensation in case some someone wants to pull up with a Levo w/700 Wh battery next to you and compare battery size through the "craigsj standardized test". Join the big battery club, cause of all these reasons: Levos with 700 Wh batteries exist and 250 Wh batteries won't cut it in a comparison, because "high energy cells" have "significant" bad questionability...

    Let people choose. Present all the facts to consider, and let their feelings be the decision maker. The Fazua rider can have multiple batteries to compare, since it's designed to be swappable. The weight savings is questionable if you're carrying a spare, sure, but it's where the weight is that is a difference; less to lift with your arms, but maybe a bit more on your ass when you sit. Maybe some appreciate that value over just having 1 big battery.

    How serious is the "aging"? If a Fazua owner ditches the battery after 200 cycles, how many miles and years is that? Even if 30 miles per cycle is the max, and 15 is the expected (3000-6000 miles over 200 cycles), consider that spread out over their spare batteries. Who knows, maybe a high mileage rider might actually like this system over a bigger battery.

    Seriously, is your mechanical sympathy really that strong that you'd lash out in disrespectful anger against people who question if wearing out a battery sooner really is a big deal, to influence people to join some big battery club? What kind of weird bullying is this? Are you an engineer?
    If this doesn't meet the standard of personal attack, I don't know what does.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by figofspee View Post
    Instead of using cheap readily available cells with no discernable cycle variation, fazua chose to use cells that that have a lifespan that is five times shorter then comparable batteries on the market. This would make good business sense in that they would sell a ton more batteries, but it seems hard to believe, and no evidence has provided that they have done so. This could be interpreted as slander.
    This is just plain dishonesty.

    We know enough about what cells Fazua uses as they have a capacity of 12.5 Wh. Samsung 30Q cells cannot provide 12.5 Wh.

    We also know that there are no high current cells available that offer a capacity of 12.5 Wh. Only high energy cells offer that much capacity.

    High energy cells do not "have a lifespan that is five times shorter then comparable batteries" nor has anyone said they do. That's just a sad straw man and can be "interpreted as slander."

    All this has covered ad nauseam. Give it up already. Are you related to og-mtb?

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    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj View Post
    People like to talk about assist level like it's a measure of power output. It's not. That's the beauty of proportional assist.

    Say you have two riders of equal size riding together. They will use about the same power to ride at the same pace. Let's say that one rides a bike with half the assist potential and battery size of the other. That rider needs to have a smaller portion of total power coming from assist so that their range will be similar.

    It's not a problem that the rider of the higher powered bike uses "turbo" mode, it's only a problem if he steps on it and drops the other. In fact, the higher powered bike will ideally use a higher level of assist on such rides if the point is to equalize the riders.

    The problem I have with small battery'ed systems like the Fazua is different. Let's say you have a Levo and a Fazua on the same ride. One has 60 cells and the other 20 cells. Now let's say they set a brisk pace and average 200W of assist power. The Levo will do that for over 3 hours while the Fazua a little over 1, but the riders can stay together no problem. At the end of the day, though, the Levo owner will get a 1000 recharge cycles on his battery at that usage while the Fazua rider will be lucky to get 200. Then factor in that the Fazua owner will need a backpack to carry two additional 3 pound packs to match the range, should they want to do that, and all 3 of those packs will wear out prematurely. It's not that the Fazua can't keep up, it's that it's poorly suited for that purpose.
    For those confused at what I am referring to. The Levo owner will for sure get 1000 charge cycles but a fazua owner will be lucky to get 200. That is if you are pulling a measly 200w. Where did Fazua find these cells?

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by figofspee View Post
    For those confused at what I am referring to. The Levo owner will for sure get 1000 charge cycles but a fazua owner will be lucky to get 200. That is if you are pulling a measly 200w. Where did Fazua find these cells?
    Maybe you should learn something about high energy cells then, figofspee. That is, if you can take some time off the trolling.

    You're right, though, that I need to make a correction. I have no reason to believe that the Levo will get 1000 charge cycles, I didn't even say what a charge cycle is in this example. I should have said that nothing would preclude it.

    Cycle life is generally specified as number of charges until a cell only offers 80% capacity. A Sanyo GA, a well known cell of this type, gets only 125 cycles at a draw of 6A per the GA data sheet. They do not publish at 1C draw, though.

    https://www.orbtronic.com/content/Da...GA-3500mah.pdf

    It's amazing how much bitterness and anger you can carry with you. Not the first time I've experienced this either. Thanks for carrying this garbage into yet another thread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbbiker View Post
    And this would seem like only a problem if trying to keep up with other emtbs in trail mode. In car terms, the Fazau would have to be run wide open/full throttle everywhere just to keep up with the traditional emtbs riding in trail mode.
    Again, do you ride at max assist/max speed *all the time*?!? Even when riding with friends?

    Now, if you're 300 pounds of morbid obesity riding the Fazua, and I'm pushing 300w of my own power and 600 more through my Levo, then sure, I'm going to drop the hell out of you. But take 2 relatively normal riders going for a fun ride... say the Fazua rider can "only" climb at 10-12mph, while the Levo rider could go 5mph faster in turbo. Why wouldn't they just both ride 10mph and enjoy themselves?

    If you're saying that more power is more fun, I get that. But in the long term we need to think about what that's going to mean for the sport.

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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by figofspee View Post
    For those confused at what I am referring to. The Levo owner will for sure get 1000 charge cycles but a fazua owner will be lucky to get 200. That is if you are pulling a measly 200w. Where did Fazua find these cells?
    Why does it matter where Fazua finds their cells? The illustration they provide doesn't necessarily reflect the current product, which makes me doubt they use conventional off-the-shelf cells.

    Let Fazua give data out, else we waste time figuring out who has more realistic speculations in threads like this.

    The people click on the thread to learn more about Fazua system, and we instead have some person acting as President over the thread, who's trying to guess the chemistry and what not, to see what the battery might be optimized for, based on imagination. If questioned, it's like a personal insult, as if we can't trust it blindly, or are so far from being like-minded that the guy just wants us gone rather than explain. All while showing his intelligence by noticing patterns like battery capacity cycle life being a matter of %, rather than seeing how all the testing ceases at 2200 mAh... xD

    Fazua "Evasion", cause you want to avoid it... source: craigsj's imagination.

    P.S. the generalization that big batteries last longer, even with same load applied, isn't necessarily true:



    Here's an example (source to study) to suggest there's more to it than comparing Wh and imagining that the load spread between fewer cells results in an early grave for the battery pack. Unless a certain someone tells us what they know that lets them be more confident in their claim, we either have to keep guessing or treat them as a weirdo. Besides depth of discharge there's temperature regulation and chemistry (cathode material, such as cobalt oxide vs manganese oxide)...
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Fazua Evation drive system-e6zgyij.png  


  26. #26
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    You might just be honest.
    Are you a distributor?
    A retailer?
    An unhappy customer?
    An out of job professor trying to teach?
    It is getting boring, well to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ninjichor View Post
    The people click on the thread to learn more about Fazua system, and we instead have some person acting as President over the thread, who's trying to guess the chemistry and what not, to see what the battery might be optimized for, based on imagination.
    To be clear, I created this thread because I was encouraged to, I have said nothing whatsoever disparaging of the Fazua product nor do I desire to, and I have pushed no personal bias. What has happened is that you and figofspee have entered this thread to continue a fight. This subforum has had problems with this for some time and your behavior is indicative of it.

    I have encouraged moderation to enforce board policies against personal attacks and remove posts from members who are destroying the purpose of the thread. It's up to them if they want to take action; if they choose to delete all these related posts, including mine, I'd be delighted.

    I have not tried to "guess the chemistry" of the cells, that's not even in debate. I have deduced from the ratings the type of cell that must be used and no one who knows anything about available cells would disagree with me. You, on the other hand, are now suggesting that Fazua has developed, or has had developed, a special cell with qualities never seen before in any market. You think if Fazua had solved this that Tesla wouldn't be interested? You know where these cells come from?

    It's a shame that we can't have nice things.

  28. #28
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    Interesting discussion. There are a lot of weird things being claimed here. I suggest we find some facts like exact batteries used and charge cycles before posting and getting at each other's throats.
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    Given the known facts that the Fazua is a 36v 7ah 250wh battery that means that it is configured as a 10s2p or 20 cells:

    Name:  Screen Shot 2019-06-01 at 6.00.20 PM.png
Views: 250
Size:  39.1 KB

    A 10s2p battery that has the 30Q, 3000mAh, cells being as batted around here I found via Google is speced as a 6ah 216wh:

    Name:  Screen Shot 2019-06-01 at 5.57.32 PM.png
Views: 247
Size:  16.6 KB

    What seems to be at question is what cells the Fazua uses as I understand it? It really doesn't matter what brand they use as much as the mAh rating of the cells themselves. Cells in order for the Fazua to be speced as 7ah battery by math is 250/7 = 3500mAh. So no matter what the brand they use the cells are 3500mAh which is a known quantity with 18650 cells that pretty much max out at 3800mAh. I did see one site that listed the Fazua as a 254wh battery which would put it more like a 3600mAh cell however.

    The 2170 cells becoming in vogue and as used in the 700wh Levo among others max out at 5000mAh but that is a story that is developing slowly but will have great effect on the market going forward I feel. As a for instance a 10s2p 2170 5A cell battery would have a 360wh capacity albeit it would need more space to accomplish this and weigh more also.

    As far as how long they will last that is up to how the battery is treated during use and while recharging. If any battery is flogged to the BMS LVC cutoff in turbo mode all the time and then charged to the max with the highest charge rate possible and for 18650's I would not be comfortable over 5A but that is a personal observation. All cells have spec sheets that can be accessed to find this info.

    One of the features of the 2170 batteries is that their increased density allows them to have a higher charge, as well as dis-charge, rate and up to as high as 8A although Haibike is advertising 10A for their upcoming Flyon but I haven't seen the cells specs on that to confirm. The LG 5A cells that are licensed to BMZ are the highest I know of and they say 8A. But once again if used to their highest capacity ratings their lifespan will be shorter than if used more gently. No fun in that though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigwheel View Post
    What seems to be at question is what cells the Fazua uses as I understand it? It really doesn't matter what brand they use as much as the mAh rating of the cells themselves. Cells in order for the Fazua to be speced as 7ah battery by math is 250/7 = 3500mAh. So no matter what the brand they use the cells are 3500mAh which is a known quantity with 18650 cells that pretty much max out at 3800mAh. I did see one site that listed the Fazua as a 254wh battery which would put it more like a 3600mAh cell however.
    Yes, there are three manufacturers of cells with sufficient capacity: LG, Samsung and Sanyo/Panasonic. They offer a total of 5 different cells ranging from 3400 mA to 3600 mA but all testing out at similar capacity and all capable of 5A draw. Any of these could be used but they all have the same potential wear limitations, as was noted in the post I cited in the other thread. That's why the specific cell type doesn't matter.

    Here is a cutaway of the Fazua pack:

    Fazua Evation drive system-fazua-battery-pack-cut-away.jpg

    There are carriers for 18650 cells and it seems likely that there is enough room for 2170 cells. There are three rows of seven cells with one row omitting a cell. IMO, a Fazua pack could be made with Samsung 50E cells bumping the capacity to 360 Wh, as Bigwheel said. To me, this would be a big improvement, though it would add a pound. As a giant bonus, the 50E appears to NOT suffer accelerated degradation at loads over half C as was noted in the reference I cited in the other thread. This pack would not only offer increased range but be more durable.

    I don't understand why Fazua didn't configure their battery as a 24V (7s) battery instead. Seems like there would be no downside, plus they could have used that empty 21st cell in a 3p config that way. With 50E cells, it would then offer 380 Wh.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Walt View Post
    Again, do you ride at max assist/max speed *all the time*?!? Even when riding with friends?

    Now, if you're 300 pounds of morbid obesity riding the Fazua, and I'm pushing 300w of my own power and 600 more through my Levo, then sure, I'm going to drop the hell out of you. But take 2 relatively normal riders going for a fun ride... say the Fazua rider can "only" climb at 10-12mph, while the Levo rider could go 5mph faster in turbo. Why wouldn't they just both ride 10mph and enjoy themselves?

    If you're saying that more power is more fun, I get that. But in the long term we need to think about what that's going to mean for the sport.

    -Walt
    I don't know why this is so hard to understand. Here's a quote from https://ebike-mtb.com/en/lapierre-ez...mate-review/3/
    "after all, the FAZUA motor is significantly less powerful.The performance of most powerful mode of the FAZUA, RocketMode, feels similar to tour mode on a Bosch motor."

    I rarely ride in max assist/max speed. I ride in trail mode most of the time, but if a rider on Fazua system were to ride with me, they would need to be in Rocketmode to stay up with me while I cruise in Trail mode. The Fazua rider will quickly use it's battery in Rocketmode. Again, this is only an issue when riding with other emtbs. It's great to have so many options out there, but for me personally, I'm not interested. I don't want anymore power then what I have in my Class 1 ebike and I don't know why you are suggesting otherwise.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ninjichor View Post

    This system gets my hopes up, of seeing a share system where people can head to a battery charge/storage station, and swap out their battery for a fresh one conveniently. I just consider it to be high fantasy to imagine a society where people are able to share peacefully...




    Trading a new battery for one that has say, 300 cycles on it seems like a losing proposition rather than sharing.
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    This thread has gone lame. This is turning into who’s d—-k is larger contest. Who cares? Just go ride. If you like the system- buy it, if not - pass.
    Why is my power bill so high?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    This thread has gone lame. This is turning into who’s d—-k is larger contest. Who cares? Just go ride. If you like the system- buy it, if not - pass.
    +1 totally agree. The main take away are, we have options and that’s great!


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    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj View Post
    I have not tried to "guess the chemistry" of the cells, that's not even in debate. I have deduced from the ratings the type of cell that must be used and no one who knows anything about available cells would disagree with me. You, on the other hand, are now suggesting that Fazua has developed, or has had developed, a special cell with qualities never seen before in any market. You think if Fazua had solved this that Tesla wouldn't be interested? You know where these cells come from?
    The battery makers themselves say they tune the chemistry for high discharge, high capacity, and a balanced mix of trade-offs. Samsung has their own model code system: 36G, 30Q, 26F, 26J, 25R, 25S, or 20S, prefixed with either ICR or INR. The # represents the capacity, the letter the "chemistry" and the prefix the cathode.

    I said illustrations don't necessarily reflect current product, and that I had doubt that they used off-the-shelf product. My doubt is from Fazua using illustrations in the first place, not giving out data, and receiving all sorts of funding (with timing and amount being significant to my impressions). I read some interviews, showing how they'd like to progress, and besides hitting slightly lower weight targets, the battery was one they were very interested in improving. The given battery specs (36V 250W) could be estimated or nominal, which is why I imply speculation is a waste of time. I'd just call it a Fazua battery, cause it's the only one I'm aware of that fits the system, and let the real world reports speak for themselves.

    "If Fazua had solved this that Tesla wouldn't be interested"... that's quite some parasocial faith behind this prejudice, that Tesla's interest is a standard to go by. I checked up on Fazua's patents and the legalese is beyond my comprehension, so I can't say I have faith, but I will not snuff out the possibility. Nissan tried to engineer their own solution. What's the Prius use, NiMH? Like I said before, I'm under the impression that emtbs loads are low, that there are many different viable ways to address issues, and that I view your fear-mongering claims as just fear-of-the-unknown. Seems like you require information regarding long term performance before you buy it, so just leave it at that, rather than making people question what you're interested in, besides speculating about the tech and shitposting about battery size. I view the smaller battery module as one of the system's stand-out features that puts it between mtb and emtb.

    Quote Originally Posted by mtbbiker View Post
    I don't know why this is so hard to understand. Here's a quote from https://ebike-mtb.com/en/lapierre-ez...mate-review/3/
    "after all, the FAZUA motor is significantly less powerful.The performance of most powerful mode of the FAZUA, RocketMode, feels similar to tour mode on a Bosch motor."


    I rarely ride in max assist/max speed. I ride in trail mode most of the time, but if a rider on Fazua system were to ride with me, they would need to be in Rocketmode to stay up with me while I cruise in Trail mode. The Fazua rider will quickly use it's battery in Rocketmode. Again, this is only an issue when riding with other emtbs. It's great to have so many options out there, but for me personally, I'm not interested. I don't want anymore power then what I have in my Class 1 ebike and I don't know why you are suggesting otherwise.
    This comparison should be looked at another way:

    Would you rather be the guy who uses more battery power, and less human power, to do the same group ride? Wouldn't someone trying to keep up with less reliance on battery power be more fit for future attempts? The time you all spend on the group ride is the same, isn't it? I see the levels as being there as options for the rider to tune their personal human-power effort levels to what they personally desire. Perhaps they desire to go gung-ho at the start, or go gung-ho on a certain hill, and "blow up" and face suffering for the rest of the ride, as they struggle to recover. I perceive the battery as a back-up, in this scenario, to help them keep up and enable the recovery without taking a long break by stopping. I personally wouldn't see their higher level of exhaustion as a negative, as they try to pace their battery usage to keep enough in reserve to last for the ride. They could just swap one in mid-ride, considering the batteries are lightweight.

    If you don't use Turbo/Boost mode, then I question its usefulness. The breeze and river mode gives the Fazua rider more eco options. The difference between your Eco option and no assist could be way too huge to bother with no assist. The Fazua rider has more options to wean themselves off battery power reliance. If the difference between Eco and Trail is too small, besides Trail offering adaptive assist if it senses torque changes, I also question the usefulness of Eco mode. I believe Shimano recommends Eco for road, and Trail for MTB, but forget what Boost is for. As a cyclist, I think I rather have the assist levels be like an accelerator pedal, where lower modes accelerate more gently and give a relatively low amount of continuous assist, maybe 20-40W in breeze, enough to counter headwinds or to give a tailwind feeling (or to avoid stealing KOMs).

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigwheel View Post
    Given the known facts that the Fazua is a 36v 7ah 250wh battery that means that it is configured as a 10s2p or 20 cells:

    Name:  Screen Shot 2019-06-01 at 6.00.20 PM.png
Views: 250
Size:  39.1 KB

    A 10s2p battery that has the 30Q, 3000mAh, cells being as batted around here I found via Google is speced as a 6ah 216wh:

    Name:  Screen Shot 2019-06-01 at 5.57.32 PM.png
Views: 247
Size:  16.6 KB

    What seems to be at question is what cells the Fazua uses as I understand it? It really doesn't matter what brand they use as much as the mAh rating of the cells themselves. Cells in order for the Fazua to be speced as 7ah battery by math is 250/7 = 3500mAh. So no matter what the brand they use the cells are 3500mAh which is a known quantity with 18650 cells that pretty much max out at 3800mAh. I did see one site that listed the Fazua as a 254wh battery which would put it more like a 3600mAh cell however.

    The 2170 cells becoming in vogue and as used in the 700wh Levo among others max out at 5000mAh but that is a story that is developing slowly but will have great effect on the market going forward I feel. As a for instance a 10s2p 2170 5A cell battery would have a 360wh capacity albeit it would need more space to accomplish this and weigh more also.

    As far as how long they will last that is up to how the battery is treated during use and while recharging. If any battery is flogged to the BMS LVC cutoff in turbo mode all the time and then charged to the max with the highest charge rate possible and for 18650's I would not be comfortable over 5A but that is a personal observation. All cells have spec sheets that can be accessed to find this info.

    One of the features of the 2170 batteries is that their increased density allows them to have a higher charge, as well as dis-charge, rate and up to as high as 8A although Haibike is advertising 10A for their upcoming Flyon but I haven't seen the cells specs on that to confirm. The LG 5A cells that are licensed to BMZ are the highest I know of and they say 8A. But once again if used to their highest capacity ratings their lifespan will be shorter than if used more gently. No fun in that though.
    If Fazua uses the NCR18650GA, which may be the best available cells, a user consuming 250 watts (8A from the pack) is at the per-cell current of 4A for which data is available; cycle life of the battery to 70 percent capacity is 500; 80 percent is 250. So battery replacement cost of about a dollar-fifty an hour if using the bike at a healthy level of assist.

    By contast, my Yamaha powered eBike is unlikely to ever need a battery replacement; the waranteed 700 cycles (limited to 3 years) of the battery will get me around 30000 miles but if I did battery replacement cost per hour would be less than half the cost of the Fazua. Do they warranty battery life?

    As usual with bicycles, there’s extra cost to light weight in wear and tear above and beyond the initial components but at least in the case of Fazua the cost is predictable.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hikerdave View Post
    If Fazua uses the NCR18650GA, which may be the best available cells, a user consuming 250 watts (8A from the pack) is at the per-cell current of 4A for which data is available; cycle life of the battery to 70 percent capacity is 500; 80 percent is 250. So battery replacement cost of about a dollar-fifty an hour if using the bike at a healthy level of assist.

    By contast, my Yamaha powered eBike is unlikely to ever need a battery replacement; the waranteed 700 cycles (limited to 3 years) of the battery will get me around 30000 miles but if I did battery replacement cost per hour would be less than half the cost of the Fazua. Do they warranty battery life?

    As usual with bicycles, there’s extra cost to light weight in wear and tear above and beyond the initial components but at least in the case of Fazua the cost is predictable.
    This is a good way to look at the issue. Small, light batteries have a hidden cost of more frequent replacement and it is more frequent than one might think.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj View Post
    This is a good way to look at the issue. Small, light batteries have a hidden cost of more frequent replacement and it is more frequent than one might think.
    Last evening i went for a 40 min ride.
    Did not use the assist.
    Did not waste time removing my 500wh
    Did not waste time replacing ...
    My Yamaha is my kind of bike, simple.

    --- It is way safer to have 1 battery that is fixed than multiples ---

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    Seems like a motorist's PoV, using a constant amount of high assist to judge things, but I do like how you can estimate cost of use, $1.50 per hour (battery replacement cost) based on a certain type of usage. A little unfair to Fazua though. Fazua is trying to target the cyclist who's already shopping high end, from what I can tell. Are people expecting ebikers to be outcast, so they aren't welcome in group rides with normal riders, riding on their own or with other ebikers, to justify judging battery usage like this?

    How much of a pain in the ass is it to remove the battery? Can it be done easily on the trail, with the bike leaning against something? These gravel Fazua bikes have their tires really close to the battery area, compared to the eZesty.

  40. #40
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    I'll find out the exact battery used, charge cycles and warranty from Fazua. This should exact spec that's not hard to get.
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    Quote Originally Posted by fc View Post
    I'll find out the exact battery used, charge cycles and warranty from Fazua. This should exact spec that's not hard to get.
    Fazua probably won't commit to a specific battery cell part number, because good engineering practice is to second-source common parts, but they might say xyzzy or equivalent. If they do give a battery warranty, it will be fairly pessimistic, because they can't predict how the bike will be used and they don't want to pay out a lot in warranty to people who hammer on their bikes, expect their heavy usage to be covered by warranty and then become dissatisfied when they don't get a free brand-new battery after their old one conks out after a couple of years.
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  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj View Post
    Fazua (https://fazua.com/en/) is a German company that has introduced an new e-bike drive system, called Evasion, with a number of unique features. The drive consists of a removable module that integrates cleanly within the downtube of the bike and contains both a battery and the drive motor for the system.

    With this approach, an Evasion-based e-bike can remove both the battery AND the motor, allowing the rider to use the bicycle as a conventional, non-assisted bicycle with only a modest increase in weight. A complete Evation system adds about 10 pounds of weight to the bicycle, with 70% removable, compared to conventional mid-drive solutions that add 14 or more pounds to the bike with only half of that removable, if the battery is removable at all. Furthermore, with both the battery and motor removed, an Evasion-based eMTB may attract less attention when ridden as an unassisted bike on trails where eMTB use is restricted.

    The Fazua solution allows for particularly discrete, stealthy integrations. Evation-equipped e-bikes may be difficult to tell apart from any number of conventional non-assisted bicycles. That feature alone may appeal to many.

    To achieve its compact dimensions, Fazua has decided to integrate a relatively modest 250Wh battery, roughly half to a third the size of more mainstream solutions. Peak torque for the system is 60 Nm, but peak power and assist levels are less than other solutions. Fazua recommends riders consider carrying extra battery modules if they desire range not afforded by the smaller battery, and at 3 pounds per battery module carrying an extra battery or two is not difficult. Fazua is not trying to compete with other systems on power but rather to provide enough assistance in a more appealing package.

    The LaPierre eZesty is an early model eMTB that has integrated the Evation system and has been getting some early press. Notable for the eZesty is how beautifully integrated the drive system is and how completely conventional the bike's appearance is despite it's assisted nature. Lots of reviews are popping up for this model.

    LaPierre is not alone, though, as other manufactures are actively developing Fazua-based models. See here for an extensive list of Fazua partners.

    eMTB is not the only class of bike showing interest in the system, either. Road and gravel bikes are in active development, including bikes from Look, Pinarello and Ridley among quite a few others. This bike from Donnelly looks especially interesting.

    So, is this lighter, more modular approach to electric assist the future of eMTB?
    I think the future is a 10# solution that can be added to any traditional mountain bike. Low power is fine.

    With modern technology it should easy to produce bike specific mounting brackets.

    I've really warmed up to the idea of e-bike, but I will not be purchasing a full time e-bike before the age of 60 (and I'm 47). They have limited usage in my area, and my current bike is already completely rad.

    Lightweight add on mid-drive is the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Suns_PSD View Post
    I think the future is a 10# solution that can be added to any traditional mountain bike. Low power is fine.

    With modern technology it should easy to produce bike specific mounting brackets.

    I've really warmed up to the idea of e-bike, but I will not be purchasing a full time e-bike before the age of 60 (and I'm 47). They have limited usage in my area, and my current bike is already completely rad.

    Lightweight add on mid-drive is the future.
    The bbs02 is 10 pounds and only costs 300 bucks and getting cheaper. They have a variety of bb options and the motor can be reprogrammed into a near infinite amount of ways. If bafang comes out with an update that is lighter, torque sensing, slimmer it would be game over for the industry. The problem with mounting a motor on to a bike is that you can't add and subtract the motor for legality or for a desire to ride e-free like the hybrid fazua system. Legality isn't going to be an issue in the future IMO but it is still nice to be able switch to non-e-mode.

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    It seems to me $$$ is getting lost somewhere.
    On paper it might be good even very good.
    The gooder it is the more cheap copies there will be.
    It is very easy in Quebec to find an Ebike for 2,000$ canadian.
    Go for fullsuspension, add a respected brand name and oops 6,000$ is the minimum, with tax it is 7,000$. Even with a 12 or 24 months plan many just consider it too much.
    I think Ebike makes wayyy more sense than Ecar but people are hooked on car so small budget Ebikes might get sold in big numbers not the 7,000$.

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    Quote Originally Posted by figofspee View Post
    The bbs02 is 10 pounds and only costs 300 bucks and getting cheaper. They have a variety of bb options and the motor can be reprogrammed into a near infinite amount of ways. If bafang comes out with an update that is lighter, torque sensing, slimmer it would be game over for the industry. The problem with mounting a motor on to a bike is that you can't add and subtract the motor for legality or for a desire to ride e-free like the hybrid fazua system. Legality isn't going to be an issue in the future IMO but it is still nice to be able switch to non-e-mode.
    Link to bbs02?

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    Of course I require the ability to remove the electric contraption when I desire, which will be most of the time.

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  47. #47
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    From across the pond: https://www.emtbforums.com/community...y-review.5666/

    Not the most glowing review. That slack in the engagement is hopefully an isolated condition of the test unit because that is pretty ugly. But not as ugly as the bar control light show going on.

    It's funny that he mentions that as the battery loses wh's the power of the bike slacks off and attributes it to software that is controlling the output to provide longer range. With a 36v 250wh battery at full charge it will have ultimatepower but lose it incrementally due to voltage drop and one at half charge and it is pretty easy to eat up 125wh of battery. That is why larger wh batteries will maintain output power longer as a 500wh battery at half charge will still have decent power output at 250wh but when it gets to 125wh it will also be putting out less output.

    Voltage drop is real and should be a known quantity and part of each rider getting to know their bike. You really need to do a few full charge to LVC runs to figure out exactly what you have to deal with I feel.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigwheel View Post
    From across the pond: https://www.emtbforums.com/community...y-review.5666/

    Not the most glowing review. That slack in the engagement is hopefully an isolated condition of the test unit because that is pretty ugly. But not as ugly as the bar control light show going on.

    It's funny that he mentions that as the battery loses wh's the power of the bike slacks off and attributes it to software that is controlling the output to provide longer range. With a 36v 250wh battery at full charge it will have ultimatepower but lose it incrementally due to voltage drop and one at half charge and it is pretty easy to eat up 125wh of battery. That is why larger wh batteries will maintain output power longer as a 500wh battery at half charge will still have decent power output at 250wh but when it gets to 125wh it will also be putting out less output.

    Voltage drop is real and should be a known quantity and part of each rider getting to know their bike. You really need to do a few full charge to LVC runs to figure out exactly what you have to deal with I feel.
    I’d agree, not a very glowing review. Reviewer states several times what I was saying, the Fazau rider needs to be in excellent condition if riding with other emtbs or be left behind. Like the reviewer said, this represents another level into the emtb market and as such will appeal to a certain type of rider.

    So it would seem we have 3 categories: lightweight Fazau (<40lbs), medium weight Levo, Tazer, etc... (45-50lbs) and heavy duty Haibike Flyon (>50).

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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbbiker View Post
    I’d agree, not a very glowing review. Reviewer states several times what I was saying, the Fazau rider needs to be in excellent condition if riding with other emtbs or be left behind. Like the reviewer said, this represents another level into the emtb market and as such will appeal to a certain type of rider.

    So it would seem we have 3 categories: lightweight Fazau (<40lbs), medium weight Levo, Tazer, etc... (45-50lbs) and heavy duty Haibike Flyon (>50).
    I agree with that and i am in the middle. I would add the budget selling never heard before names and that is our problem. In North America Ebikes are new, emerging, marginal. Dividing a small market keeps the price high. The $$ invested in research and marketing is paid by a few of us. I predict we will see things improve but shit will be plenty.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigwheel View Post
    Voltage drop is real and should be a known quantity and part of each rider getting to know their bike. You really need to do a few full charge to LVC runs to figure out exactly what you have to deal with I feel.
    Voltage drop is the problem and there are two aspects of the battery that contribute to it.

    First, these batteries lose voltage as they discharge and that reduces their available power delivery. This is more noticeable in a small battery because it discharges more rapidly. I think most people know this.

    Second, a small battery has higher internal resistance and exhibits more voltage sag under load. This is "temporary" voltage drop that occurs when power is demanded. This internal resistance causes heating in the battery and contributes to its wear. A 20 cell battery with have twice the IR of an equivalently constructed 40 cell battery. High energy cells have high IR and are typically sensitive to high temps, that's why they are poorly suited to high current draw rates.

    There's a third issue, IR increases as a battery gets low and batteries are damaged when they are drawn below their lower limit voltages. As a result, proper battery management must limit current draw with a heavy hand to prevent damage to such a small battery. That's what the reviewer is noticing here.

    I'm surprised by the negativity of the review because I don't expect to see reviews like that. I'm not at all surprised by the details though. The sad thing is that Fazua has locked themselves in with their form factor and there doesn't appear a solution without breaking compatibility.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigwheel View Post
    From across the pond: https://www.emtbforums.com/community...y-review.5666/

    Not the most glowing review. That slack in the engagement is hopefully an isolated condition of the test unit because that is pretty ugly. But not as ugly as the bar control light show going on.

    It's funny that he mentions that as the battery loses wh's the power of the bike slacks off and attributes it to software that is controlling the output to provide longer range. With a 36v 250wh battery at full charge it will have ultimatepower but lose it incrementally due to voltage drop and one at half charge and it is pretty easy to eat up 125wh of battery. That is why larger wh batteries will maintain output power longer as a 500wh battery at half charge will still have decent power output at 250wh but when it gets to 125wh it will also be putting out less output.

    Voltage drop is real and should be a known quantity and part of each rider getting to know their bike. You really need to do a few full charge to LVC runs to figure out exactly what you have to deal with I feel.
    My Yamaha PW-SE bike has only 18 points of engagement, which has been increased to 24 POE in the Yamaha PW-X and this is very annoying and leads to a lot of extra pedal strikes here in rocky Arizona; lots of bare metal showing on my crank arms. Lesson; check that before you buy an eBike.

    The eZesty rear suspension is mildly concerning but might be remediated with tuning or perhaps a different shock can but this reviewer tells all unlike your typical bike reviewer who is carefully edited to speak no evil.

    That severely lessened power output is a big deal for me; my toughest ride had a lot of steep climbs near the end and I think that bike would have had me walking; I’d doubt the bike would significantly assist for even ten miles of demanding terrain given that the reviewer could feel the power dropping off so much; I haven’t felt that the assistance of my bike has dropped off even down to around 8 percent of battery left.
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    On a related subject: I often ride my BBSHD conversion bike with two others, who have Haibikes. Towards the end of a 20+ mile 4 K gain ride the other day, one of the Haibike riders commented that due to the superior electrical engineering of his ride, his motor put out full power even as the battery got discharged. He seems to believe that my BBSHD is linear in power as the voltage drops, while his stays constant, and he claims the other Haibike rider (who wasn't there at the time), who used to ride a BBSHD (but never got a proper frame for it, and it sucked as it had a horrible chain line) said the same. Interesting, but as I have only ridden BBSHD's I can't compare myself, I do know my BBSHD has more torque and power then the Haibikes, but can't really tell if it's performance falls off more then theirs as the battery depletes. With my 884 watt battery, I never have to worry about my range when riding with them.

    I also have a Luna Mini 6 AH battery on another ride, and the voltage sag is obvious when compared to the 17 AH battery in my fatbike, no surprise there, and I would expect it to be shorter lived as it's working harder. No big deal, they still offer a tremendous amount of riding for what they cost, and I have yet to "wear" one out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hikerdave View Post
    My Yamaha PW-SE bike has only 18 points of engagement, which has been increased to 24 POE in the Yamaha PW-X and this is very annoying and leads to a lot of extra pedal strikes here in rocky Arizona; lots of bare metal showing on my crank arms. Lesson; check that before you buy an eBike.

    The eZesty rear suspension is mildly concerning but might be remediated with tuning or perhaps a different shock can but this reviewer tells all unlike your typical bike reviewer who is carefully edited to speak no evil.

    That severely lessened power output is a big deal for me; my toughest ride had a lot of steep climbs near the end and I think that bike would have had me walking; I’d doubt the bike would significantly assist for even ten miles of demanding terrain given that the reviewer could feel the power dropping off so much; I haven’t felt that the assistance of my bike has dropped off even down to around 8 percent of battery left.
    Good feedback. I like that the E-Zesty review is balanced because that bike is not for everyone. It's for the XC or Trail guy who doesn't want a 50 lb commitment right now.

    It's something I've looked for. A good boost on a lighter ebike with modularity built-in.

    But no way it's keeping up with a Levo or Shimano on the steeps. Will people buy it? A few I'm sure... but not the core ebike market.
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    Another factor will be what you are used to before hopping on one of the Fazua powered bikes. My Haibike has a Bosch Performance CX and I've got 1,500 miles on it. When I hop on anything else it just feels wrong. You get used to the way the power engages and the level of power at different assist levels.

    Someone who has never ridden an eMTB before will probably love it and after riding the Fazua for a while would think the Bosch is crap.

    For me I'm pretty sure less power will never work for me, but I'd still like to give it a try and see. I was told by a bike rep at a demo event that the Fazua powered bikes won't be available in the US until March 2020 at the earliest, so that will have to wait.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fc View Post
    Good feedback. I like that the E-Zesty review is balanced because that bike is not for everyone. It's for the XC or Trail guy who doesn't want a 50 lb commitment right now.

    It's something I've looked for. A good boost on a lighter ebike with modularity built-in.

    But no way it's keeping up with a Levo or Shimano on the steeps. Will people buy it? A few I'm sure... but not the core ebike market.
    If they bump the voltage/wattage up and offer more watt hour battery options, this would be a very competitive design.

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    Quote Originally Posted by portnuefpeddler View Post
    He seems to believe that my BBSHD is linear in power as the voltage drops...
    He is correct, BBSHD power drops linearly with voltage. It's not clear why he thinks that matters since the BBSHD lacks proportional assist. They work very differently.

    You can set up a BBSHD with 9 assist levels giving you fine control over power. You can use that to mitigate power drop with voltage if you want. I often use one lower power level on a full charge for this reason.

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    Quote Originally Posted by notb View Post
    Another factor will be what you are used to before hopping on one of the Fazua powered bikes. My Haibike has a Bosch Performance CX and I've got 1,500 miles on it. When I hop on anything else it just feels wrong. You get used to the way the power engages and the level of power at different assist levels.

    Someone who has never ridden an eMTB before will probably love it and after riding the Fazua for a while would think the Bosch is crap.

    For me I'm pretty sure less power will never work for me, but I'd still like to give it a try and see. I was told by a bike rep at a demo event that the Fazua powered bikes won't be available in the US until March 2020 at the earliest, so that will have to wait.
    holy schite, 2020.

    I should get a Look gravel bike soon with that motor. And Fantic is close to me and I should be able to try a Fazua.
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    Quote Originally Posted by figofspee View Post
    If they bump the voltage/wattage up and offer more watt hour battery options, this would be a very competitive design.
    Agree. Many, many other companies are coming to the scene attacking this weight and modularity issue. Forestal Bikes is one of them with an under 40 lb bike, normal power and a 375 wh battery.
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj View Post
    He is correct, BBSHD power drops linearly with voltage. It's not clear why he thinks that matters since the BBSHD lacks proportional assist. They work very differently.

    You can set up a BBSHD with 9 assist levels giving you fine control over power. You can use that to mitigate power drop with voltage if you want. I often use one lower power level on a full charge for this reason.
    I never use PAS, just throttle (while pedaling) that gives me much more then 9 predetermined levels of fine adjustment.

    Linear would be my guess, not only that but my experience, but he's saying a Haibike continues to offer the same power as the pack voltage declines, like it somehow jacks up the battery voltage to the motor while it declines, which led to a discussion about Chinese versus Japanese electrical engineering. Amp draw would increase of course if the same power is output, while the voltage drops. All I really know for sure is I have a lot longer range then they do, even with the extra weight and drag of a fatbike, to be expected with my bigger battery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by portnuefpeddler View Post
    ...but he's saying a Haibike continues to offer the same power as the pack voltage declines, like it somehow jacks up the battery voltage to the motor while it declines, which led to a discussion about Chinese versus Japanese electrical engineering. Amp draw would increase of course if the same power is output, while the voltage drops.
    A motor controller is a glorified voltage converter, but not one that boosts battery voltage.

    A motor controller takes battery voltage and current and it switches them on and off until a desired amount of motor phase current is reached. Whatever output voltage ultimately results doesn't matter, but essentially the controller acts as a buck converter. As motor RPMs increase, the output voltage rises until the battery voltage prevents it. Then, the switching duty cycle is 100% on and the motor current starts to fall.

    As the controller targets a specific motor phase current (corresponding to a specific torque), power remains constant regardless of battery voltage (until battery voltage is inadequate). This is likely how the Haibike works. It should be known, though, that eMTB motors may operate in the "100% duty cycle" portion of the power band at higher cadences and power drops with voltage in this range, so we don't really know how his Haibike operates.

    The BBSHD regulates battery current, not motor current. It's power output falls as battery voltage falls. Its power output, though, is basically constant regardless of cadence, unlike proportional systems. They are very different and it's not a chinese vs. japanese thing.

    If you've programmed your own BBSHD, you know that throttle can be either "voltage" or "current" where battery current is the current setting. Some controllers offer, instead, motor (or phase) current as a setting. Above is the difference between these.

    Hopefully no one minds the overly geeky discussion in the Fazua thread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fc View Post
    holy schite, 2020.

    I should get a Look gravel bike soon with that motor. And Fantic is close to me and I should be able to try a Fazua.
    Not sure what this means. Are you saying the motor IS available here in the Bay Area? I'd love to try one if it is. Bad information from a bike rep wouldn't be that big of a surprise. I've been looking at an Orbea hub drive gravel bike and would love to compare it to a Fazua drive gravel bike.

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    Every rider has different needs, so want more epower, some want lighter weight, it's kinda hard to have your cake and eat it too, so light weight and high powered ebikes are not coming anytime soon...

    But for those folks who don't care about keeping up with higher powered ebikes, for those riders who want a kicker so they can hang with non ebikers. for those riders who want a balance of weight and epower, then yeah, these lighter weight and lower powered systems are perfect.

    For example: My wife is not fit, she rides a Shuttle, it's lightish but certainly not light compared to a non ebike, and she only rides with me or the kids. She is not in a hurry, we are not in a hurry, she rarely uses more than 50% of the battery capacity even on the longest rides she does, so for her the Shuttle is overpowered.

    My wife would love to have a lighter bike with the same downhill capabilities, say 30-35#, half the battery, half the motor.

    I also think the modular system opens the door to riders who want to choose the level of power/battery life and weight, but only want to buy one bike. I'd love to have a half sized battery for my wife's shuttle, esp for short rides.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nurse Ben View Post
    Every rider has different needs, so want more epower, some want lighter weight, it's kinda hard to have your cake and eat it too, so light weight and high powered ebikes are not coming anytime soon...

    But for those folks who don't care about keeping up with higher powered ebikes, for those riders who want a kicker so they can hang with non ebikers. for those riders who want a balance of weight and epower, then yeah, these lighter weight and lower powered systems are perfect.

    For example: My wife is not fit, she rides a Shuttle, it's lightish but certainly not light compared to a non ebike, and she only rides with me or the kids. She is not in a hurry, we are not in a hurry, she rarely uses more than 50% of the battery capacity even on the longest rides she does, so for her the Shuttle is overpowered.

    My wife would love to have a lighter bike with the same downhill capabilities, say 30-35#, half the battery, half the motor.

    I also think the modular system opens the door to riders who want to choose the level of power/battery life and weight, but only want to buy one bike. I'd love to have a half sized battery for my wife's shuttle, esp for short rides.

    Exactly!! It will address the needs of many of who are hold-outs and are just looking for a 'helping hand'.

    And it will address a couple of the major concerns currently of buyers, too heavy and too big/moto looking.

    Still it's not for everyone as most will lean towards the Levo type bikes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj View Post
    A motor controller is a glorified voltage converter, but not one that boosts battery voltage.

    A motor controller takes battery voltage and current and it switches them on and off until a desired amount of motor phase current is reached. Whatever output voltage ultimately results doesn't matter, but essentially the controller acts as a buck converter. As motor RPMs increase, the output voltage rises until the battery voltage prevents it. Then, the switching duty cycle is 100% on and the motor current starts to fall.

    As the controller targets a specific motor phase current (corresponding to a specific torque), power remains constant regardless of battery voltage (until battery voltage is inadequate). This is likely how the Haibike works. It should be known, though, that eMTB motors may operate in the "100% duty cycle" portion of the power band at higher cadences and power drops with voltage in this range, so we don't really know how his Haibike operates.

    The BBSHD regulates battery current, not motor current. It's power output falls as battery voltage falls. Its power output, though, is basically constant regardless of cadence, unlike proportional systems. They are very different and it's not a chinese vs. japanese thing.

    If you've programmed your own BBSHD, you know that throttle can be either "voltage" or "current" where battery current is the current setting. Some controllers offer, instead, motor (or phase) current as a setting. Above is the difference between these.

    Hopefully no one minds the overly geeky discussion in the Fazua thread.
    Great explanation, I read it over twice and believe I understand it better now, thanks. I need to memorize it, and the next time my Haibike riding buddy brings it up, I'll quote you verbatim but of course act like I knew it all already just to get him riled up, that's what friends are for.

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    We haven't mentioned a key advantage that fazua bikes are not too heavy to lift.

    A 55 lb bike is really hard to lift onto a bike rack or pickup truck by most folks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by portnuefpeddler View Post
    Great explanation, I read it over twice and believe I understand it better now, thanks. I need to memorize it, and the next time my Haibike riding buddy brings it up, I'll quote you verbatim but of course act like I knew it all already just to get him riled up, that's what friends are for.
    On my Haibike with Yamaha PW-SE I think that I can hear the switching frequency as a high-pitched tone which starts as soon as I apply torque on the pedals and doesn’t vary in pitch with motor speed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by fc View Post
    We haven't mentioned a key advantage that fazua bikes are not too heavy to lift.

    A 55 lb bike is really hard to lift onto a bike rack or pickup truck by most folks.
    External battery FTW but Fazua without the motor and battery even better.
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    free play in Fazua motor cranks?

    EDIT - oops, see that Bigwheel addressed this above

    (24 POE in the motor giving 15° of slop before engagement is not good on an emtb)
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