Ebikes are getting people fit. Good article. - Page 2- Mtbr.com
Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 201 to 386 of 386
  1. #201
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    8,827
    Quote Originally Posted by figofspee View Post
    Forest Service Manual 2353.05“Wheelchair or Mobility Device. A device, including one that is battery-powered, that is designed solely for use by a mobility-impaired person for locomotion, and that is suitable for use in an indoor pedestrian area. A person whose disability requires use of a wheelchair or mobility device may use a wheelchair or mobility device that meets this definition anywhere foot travel is allowed.”

    The Forest service appears to use the same language as the ada, so it appears that they are following the same rules even though they are not legally required to. If you are caught riding an ebike on a National Forest trail, you may need to specify that you have a disability or they could write you a ticket.
    Wheelchairs and OPDMDs are not the same thing under ADA.

    Forest service seems to have different rules.
    Sinister Bikes
    Wraith Bicycles
    Sunday River Mtn Bike Park
    NEMBA
    Wachusett Brewing Co.

  2. #202
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    8,827
    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Completely subjective of course, and I might not disagree about the movies and vids so much but to claim that video games have more depth than great literature or music is a pretty sad statement to me.
    Yeah, I wouldn't go that far. Definitely an art form though. Many times I choose to do a little gaming in my downtime rather than watching the boob tube or dicking around on the internets; some good entertainment to be had.
    Sinister Bikes
    Wraith Bicycles
    Sunday River Mtn Bike Park
    NEMBA
    Wachusett Brewing Co.

  3. #203
    10,000,000 Watts
    Reputation: Gutch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    2,763
    I play a few with my son. Hell, I had an Atari 2600 growing up. No big deal.
    Mountain Bikers Do It Til They Bonk!

  4. #204
    mtbr member
    Reputation: sfgiantsfan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    2,191
    Quote Originally Posted by figofspee View Post
    Forest Service Manual 2353.05“Wheelchair or Mobility Device. A device, including one that is battery-powered, that is designed solely for use by a mobility-impaired person for locomotion, and that is suitable for use in an indoor pedestrian area. A person whose disability requires use of a wheelchair or mobility device may use a wheelchair or mobility device that meets this definition anywhere foot travel is allowed.”

    The Forest service appears to use the same language as the ada, so it appears that they are following the same rules even though they are not legally required to. If you are caught riding an ebike on a National Forest trail, you may need to specify that you have a disability or they could write you a ticket.
    Are ebikes

    " designed solely for use by a mobility-impaired person for locomotion,"

    That would solve a lot of arguments here.
    I'm sick of all the Irish stereotypes, as soon as I finish this beer I"m punching someone

  5. #205
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Posts
    3,110
    Quote Originally Posted by sfgiantsfan View Post
    Are ebikes

    " designed solely for use by a mobility-impaired person for locomotion,"

    That would solve a lot of arguments here.
    Are wheelchairs, are hovearounds? That's what they are marketed and intended for but not what they are designed for. There is nothing inherently unique enough about a mobility impaired person to influence the design parameters. Any individual can use them. Poorly worded statute that leaves the door open for selective enforcement claims if someone attempts to use it in the manner you are.

    Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

  6. #206
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Mr Pig's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    11,033
    Quote Originally Posted by sfgiantsfan View Post
    Are ebikes " designed solely for use by a mobility-impaired person for locomotion,"
    It could be argued that they are. Perhaps we should rename the eBike forum 'The Physically Impaired Forum'?

  7. #207
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    8,827
    It's actually not all the confusing if you take the time to do a little reading. And comprehending of course.

    Certain devices can be restriced from certain trails provided certain requirements are met.
    Devices that qualify as wheelchairs have to be allowed anywhere foot travel is allowed.

    The American Trails page explains things fairly clearly IMO. I've had conversations with ADA people within the past few years that back up what is spelled out there.
    Sinister Bikes
    Wraith Bicycles
    Sunday River Mtn Bike Park
    NEMBA
    Wachusett Brewing Co.

  8. #208
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    8,827
    Quote Originally Posted by sfgiantsfan View Post
    Are ebikes

    " designed solely for use by a mobility-impaired person for locomotion,"

    That would solve a lot of arguments here.
    That is where the Forest Service definition differs - the ADA makes a distinction between OPDMDs and wheelchairs, the Forest Service rules kind of combine the two.
    Sinister Bikes
    Wraith Bicycles
    Sunday River Mtn Bike Park
    NEMBA
    Wachusett Brewing Co.

  9. #209
    poser Administrator
    Reputation: rockcrusher's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Posts
    10,184
    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    It's actually not all the confusing if you take the time to do a little reading. And comprehending of course.

    Certain devices can be restriced from certain trails provided certain requirements are met.
    Devices that qualify as wheelchairs have to be allowed anywhere foot travel is allowed.

    The American Trails page explains things fairly clearly IMO. I've had conversations with ADA people within the past few years that back up what is spelled out there.
    I am well acquainted with the ADA requirements in general and the foot travel item is the catch. This is a guideline intended to prevent discrimination to all users. If a trail does not allow bicycles it would not be discrimination to prevent e-bikes for physically impaired users. The ADA mandate allows usage to certain extents but is liberated from making all trails accessible as the cost and impact to the environment would be too great. As this is up to the land manager they could easily fine a physically impaired user on a trail that was no motorized vehicles because it was not a noted accessible trail. When you go to Yellowstone everything is not accessible there and there is not the expectation that you could use a OPDMD to get into places that maybe you couldn't get in to with a manual wheelchair.

    The OPDMD item is an easy way to essentially white wash a very difficult concept. If a trail is bike use ebikes should be allowed under OPDMD usage by someone with a disability. If the trail is not bikes or pedestrian only, the land manager could easily argue that it is not an accessible trail and is not open to OPDMD. It would be hard to argue that this is discrimination as it is still preventing some one that doesn't have access to a OPDMD from using it. The crux of any anti discrimination law is showing that you are being discriminated against. Accessing hiking trail that didn't meet ADA guidelines for accessibility would be hard to argue as discriminatory as the park either has accessible trails that are available or that it would be imprudent and damaging to the environment to make the trail truly accessible to all.

    It's a sticky wicket for sure but pitching ADA as a right to use Ebikes somewhere is a slippery slope and lest we forget that to actually get any traction in using the ADA you generally will need a class action discrimination lawsuit raised. Of course California is different but for most other states it will be long legal slope to gain back traction and access using this tactic.
    MTBR Posting Guidelines
    calories>electrons

  10. #210
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    8,827
    Quote Originally Posted by rockcrusher View Post
    I am well acquainted with the ADA requirements in general and the foot travel item is the catch. This is a guideline intended to prevent discrimination to all users. If a trail does not allow bicycles it would not be discrimination to prevent e-bikes for physically impaired users. The ADA mandate allows usage to certain extents but is liberated from making all trails accessible as the cost and impact to the environment would be too great. As this is up to the land manager they could easily fine a physically impaired user on a trail that was no motorized vehicles because it was not a noted accessible trail. When you go to Yellowstone everything is not accessible there and there is not the expectation that you could use a OPDMD to get into places that maybe you couldn't get in to with a manual wheelchair.

    The OPDMD item is an easy way to essentially white wash a very difficult concept. If a trail is bike use ebikes should be allowed under OPDMD usage by someone with a disability. If the trail is not bikes or pedestrian only, the land manager could easily argue that it is not an accessible trail and is not open to OPDMD. It would be hard to argue that this is discrimination as it is still preventing some one that doesn't have access to a OPDMD from using it. The crux of any anti discrimination law is showing that you are being discriminated against. Accessing hiking trail that didn't meet ADA guidelines for accessibility would be hard to argue as discriminatory as the park either has accessible trails that are available or that it would be imprudent and damaging to the environment to make the trail truly accessible to all.
    .
    The issue of making the trails accessible is quite separate from denying access; allowing access doesn't mean guaranteeing passability.

    My understanding based on a number of emails and conversations I had with ADA people while trying to make sense of the whole thing ended up as:

    If someone who is disabled wants to take an ATV (for example) on a hiking trail by claiming it is an OPDMD, in order to deny access, the LM would have had to have done a trail inventory and assessment to spell out why it would be an inappropriate OPDMD for that particular trail, and have that assessment on hand. The link I provided above spells out the allowable reasons for denying that access. If no such inventory has been done, access can't be denied.

    I'm not a guru on the subject by any means, but I asked about very, very particular situations from experts ADA folks in Washington and got as much clarity as I could, as some HoHs were trying to stymie a trail project we were working on by claiming that the trails HAD to be made wheelchair accessible.
    Sinister Bikes
    Wraith Bicycles
    Sunday River Mtn Bike Park
    NEMBA
    Wachusett Brewing Co.

  11. #211
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    8,827
    Quote Originally Posted by rockcrusher View Post
    If a trail does not allow bicycles it would not be discrimination to prevent e-bikes for physically impaired users.
    The funny thing is, the way we specifically avoided having to worry about any ADA requirements was to have the trail's primary designation be as a biking trail rather than a hiking trail. Only trails that have a primary designation as a foot travel/hiking trail are subject to the ADA requirments. So, in my local example, we could deny e-bike OPDMD access to the biking trails without doing any sort of assessment, but would have to allow them on the hiking trails or do an inventory and assessment to spell out by which criteria they were deemed to be inappropriate.

    Gotta love regulations.

    Sinister Bikes
    Wraith Bicycles
    Sunday River Mtn Bike Park
    NEMBA
    Wachusett Brewing Co.

  12. #212
    Moderator Moderator
    Reputation: Harryman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    2,858
    Quote Originally Posted by figofspee View Post
    If you are caught riding an ebike on a National Forest trail, you may need to specify that you have a disability or they could write you a ticket.
    It appears they don't really care if you specify you have a disability.

    http://forums.mtbr.com/trail-buildin...1028784-4.html

    Our local parks people don't consider ebikes OPMD, but they will let those claiming disability ride them on non motorized trails.

  13. #213
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    8,827
    Confusing layers of rules and regs aside, I really don't think the issue of disabled access is really much more than an interesting aside. The numbers of folks riding e-bikes under an ADA exemption will remain statistically insignificant in the big picture. I'm all for considering e-bikes as OPDMDs across the board myself. Seems like a fantastic use for them.

    My dad is 74 and a mountain biker. He's also a disabled veteran with 20 years service; his physical issues are from exposure to toxins, so you wouldn't look at him and be able to see anything obvious. He also has done more work on MTB trails than easily 98% of the general riding population. He's definitely going to keep doing into until he drops, so if in a few years, a little pedal assist on his fatbike helps him keep hauling chainsaws (and pizzas) out into the woods, IMHO it would take a real dick to have an issue with that. Of course, so far, he's still pedaling on his own, but not everyone in his situation is going to be as determined (stubborn ) as he is.

    My sister also rides regularly, though she keeps it pretty mellow. She's 47 and has Cystic Fibrosis (47 is pretty long in the tooth for someone with CF - she's also stubbon). It affects here digestion (and therefore weight) as well as cutting her lung capacity to somewhere well under 50%. Once again, you wouldn't look at her and see that she's obviously disabled. Some of you it seems would look at her and pretty much dismiss her as fat, lazy, and obviously unfit to share the trails with the likes of your awesome selves, or even breathe the same rarefied air.

    Once again, she chooses to pedal unassisted, but if a little boost is what it would take to keep her getting out on the trails at some point, it'd take a special type of person to get upset about that.
    Sinister Bikes
    Wraith Bicycles
    Sunday River Mtn Bike Park
    NEMBA
    Wachusett Brewing Co.

  14. #214
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Posts
    3,110
    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    Confusing layers of rules and regs aside, I really don't think the issue of disabled access is really much more than an interesting aside. The numbers of folks riding e-bikes under an ADA exemption will remain statistically insignificant in the big picture. I'm all for considering e-bikes as OPDMDs across the board myself. Seems like a fantastic use for them.

    My dad is 74 and a mountain biker. He's also a disabled veteran with 20 years service; his physical issues are from exposure to toxins, so you wouldn't look at him and be able to see anything obvious. He also has done more work on MTB trails than easily 98% of the general riding population. He's definitely going to keep doing into until he drops, so if in a few years, a little pedal assist on his fatbike helps him keep hauling chainsaws (and pizzas) out into the woods, IMHO it would take a real dick to have an issue with that. Of course, so far, he's still pedaling on his own, but not everyone in his situation is going to be as determined (stubborn ) as he is.

    My sister also rides regularly, though she keeps it pretty mellow. She's 47 and has Cystic Fibrosis (47 is pretty long in the tooth for someone with CF - she's also stubbon). It affects here digestion (and therefore weight) as well as cutting her lung capacity to somewhere well under 50%. Once again, you wouldn't look at her and see that she's obviously disabled. Some of you it seems would look at her and pretty much dismiss her as fat, lazy, and obviously unfit to share the trails with the likes of your awesome selves, or even breathe the same rarefied air.

    Once again, she chooses to pedal unassisted, but if a little boost is what it would take to keep her getting out on the trails at some point, it'd take a special type of person to get upset about that.
    I agree with this wholeheartedly. I will also say that unfortunately there are people who are people who are that special.

    Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

  15. #215
    mtbr member
    Reputation: sfgiantsfan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    2,191
    [QUOTE=tuckerjt07;13770083]Are wheelchairs, are hovearounds? That's what they are marketed and intended for but not what they are designed for. There is nothing inherently unique enough about a mobility impaired person to influence the design parameters. Any individual can use them. Poorly worded statute that leaves the door open for selective enforcement claims if someone attempts to use it in the manner you are.


    This coming from a group of people that say they don't have motors on their bikes because the vehicle code tells them they are not a motorized vehicle.
    I'm sick of all the Irish stereotypes, as soon as I finish this beer I"m punching someone

  16. #216
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Posts
    3,110
    Quote Originally Posted by sfgiantsfan View Post

    This coming from a group of people that say they don't have motors on their bikes because the vehicle code tells them they are not a motorized vehicle.
    Nice strawman, first, for the umpteenth time, I don't own an e-bike and have no desire to do so, you have a poor memory, maybe get that checked? Second, I would love for you to find a single instance of where I have said or agreed with that. Until then it's safe to assume you are incorrect.

    Your issue points back to what you left me negative rep over. You find minutia and detail to be boring. If you want to coherently discuss statutes, policies, etc. you had best be prepared to spend a lot of time dissecting those finer points. Otherwise it's pointless and worthless.

    Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

  17. #217
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    355
    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    Your issue points back to what you left me negative rep over. You find minutia and detail to be boring.
    I think it runs deeper than this. Left me negative rep while putting the following words in my mouth. "You don't need an e bike to get fit." Dah! Seems if you own an e bike and comment favorably it this forum, its going to earn you negative rep. Hmmm. This forum does attract the e bike haters.

  18. #218
    Cycologist
    Reputation: chazpat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    6,674
    So in conclusion:

    Some exercise is better than no exercise.
    This post is a natural product. Variances in spelling & grammar should be appreciated as part of its character & beauty.

  19. #219
    Location: 10 ft from Hell Moderator
    Reputation: life behind bars's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    4,451
    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    So in conclusion:

    Some exercise is better than no exercise.
    This.
    I ncredibly
    M yopic
    B ackstabbing
    A ssholes

  20. #220
    mtbr member
    Reputation: sfgiantsfan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    2,191
    Quote Originally Posted by PierreR View Post
    I think it runs deeper than this. Left me negative rep while putting the following words in my mouth. "You don't need an e bike to get fit." Dah! Seems if you own an e bike and comment favorably it this forum, its going to earn you negative rep. Hmmm. This forum does attract the e bike haters.
    I neg repped your post about how you help people lose weight and acting like the only way it happens is because of an e-bike. You do not need and ebike to get fit. Everything you explained in that story would work with a real bike. They would not need to spend the money on an ebike, they could spend 100 bucks on a used bike and get more of a benefit out of it. It is the same boring story repeated on here hundreds of times. If their only problem is obesity, a regular bike will do just fine.
    I'm sick of all the Irish stereotypes, as soon as I finish this beer I"m punching someone

  21. #221
    mtbr member
    Reputation: sfgiantsfan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    2,191
    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    Nice strawman, first, for the umpteenth time, I don't own an e-bike and have no desire to do so, you have a poor memory, maybe get that checked? Second, I would love for you to find a single instance of where I have said or agreed with that. Until then it's safe to assume you are incorrect.

    Your issue points back to what you left me negative rep over. You find minutia and detail to be boring. If you want to coherently discuss statutes, policies, etc. you had best be prepared to spend a lot of time dissecting those finer points. Otherwise it's pointless and worthless.

    Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
    I said group of people, you only called me out on my interpretation of that law, never called out jim-bo etc on their interpretation of the VC.
    I'm sick of all the Irish stereotypes, as soon as I finish this beer I"m punching someone

  22. #222
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Posts
    3,110
    Quote Originally Posted by sfgiantsfan View Post
    I said group of people, you only called me out on my interpretation of that law,
    Well, that would imply that I was part of a group of people to whom that could be attributed. Considering I have never said, agreed with, or will agree with what you attributed to a group you included me in you're just digging your hole deeper.

    Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

  23. #223
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Posts
    3,110
    Quote Originally Posted by sfgiantsfan View Post
    If their only problem is obesity, a regular bike will do just fine.
    That's a elementary and simplistic way of looking at it. You're assuming that the desire is to ride a bike. The desire may be to use the bike to explore nature and/or see the sights. An obese person may not be able to accomplish a short jaunt off road without assistance and subsequently give up. The assistance may allow them to go further and convince them to keep with it. Nothing about this conversation is black and white or as overly simplistic as you would like to portray it.

    Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

  24. #224
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    355
    Quote Originally Posted by sfgiantsfan View Post
    I neg repped your post about how you help people lose weight and acting like the only way it happens is because of an e-bike. You do not need and ebike to get fit. Everything you explained in that story would work with a real bike. They would not need to spend the money on an ebike, they could spend 100 bucks on a used bike and get more of a benefit out of it. It is the same boring story repeated on here hundreds of times. If their only problem is obesity, a regular bike will do just fine.
    I do not believe that it can be explained to you. You will simply have to run to many birthdays yourself to get past your myoptic views.

  25. #225
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    8,827
    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    That's a elementary and simplistic way of looking at it. You're assuming that the desire is to ride a bike. The desire may be to use the bike to explore nature and/or see the sights. An obese person may not be able to accomplish a short jaunt off road without assistance and subsequently give up. The assistance may allow them to go further and convince them to keep with it. Nothing about this conversation is black and white or as overly simplistic as you would like to portray it.

    Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
    Bam.

    It's not just about frigging exercise.
    A hell of a lot of us ride mainly for FUN.
    I know I do.
    Sinister Bikes
    Wraith Bicycles
    Sunday River Mtn Bike Park
    NEMBA
    Wachusett Brewing Co.

  26. #226
    banned
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    552
    Quote Originally Posted by sfgiantsfan View Post
    I said group of people, you only called me out on my interpretation of that law, never called out jim-bo etc on their interpretation of the VC.
    Jim_bo never offered an interpretation of the VC.

    You are just an angry guy with a narrow focus and a poor understanding of facts running around trying to make himself feel superior by giving people grief and neg rep.

  27. #227
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    355
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_bo View Post
    You are just an angry guy with a narrow focus and a poor understanding of facts running around trying to make himself feel superior by giving people grief and neg rep.
    I will cut him some slack as I had the same myoptic view when I was younger. I suspect he as never gotten behind the 8 ball health wise and suffered any kind of chronic fatigue, chronic illness or long difficult recovery.

    I can just about be certain that by the time he is 150 years old he will have experienced declining health.


    Once you have experienced a health issue you realize how short life is and how quickly you can be gone. Your perspective changes and you will choose funner more fulfilling ways to accomplish the same tasks.

    I told my brother about this thread and his answer was "Tell them nay sayers that I can throw a regular bike further than I am going to ride one." Interesting take on it as I has seen him lift a concert grand piano and put it in the back of a truck. At 6' 4" and 285 lb he has a lot of muscle from rebuilding heavy machinery and needs something like the e bike to loosen up stiffness and balance out muscles. Setting the assist level for light fast pedaling helps him quite a bit after moving heavy parts around all day.

    Its not raining, I am going to go cheat for about 30 miles or so on my big fat e bike. All pavement.

  28. #228
    Location: 10 ft from Hell Moderator
    Reputation: life behind bars's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    4,451
    Quote Originally Posted by PierreR View Post

    Its not raining, I am going to go cheat for about 30 miles or so on my big fat e bike. All pavement.




    How many is that in pedal bike miles.
    I ncredibly
    M yopic
    B ackstabbing
    A ssholes

  29. #229
    mtbr member
    Reputation: J.B. Weld's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    14,143
    Quote Originally Posted by PierreR View Post
    Once you have experienced a health issue you realize how short life is and how quickly you can be gone. Your perspective changes and you will choose funner more fulfilling ways to accomplish the same tasks.

    I agree. The remedy for all my health issues has been a bicycle, more fun and fulfilling than anything I've found so far.
    I brake for stinkbugs

  30. #230
    Cycologist
    Reputation: chazpat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    6,674
    There are a good number of very serious cancer survivors and heart attack survivors, etc. on this site that pedal bicycles. Also riders who started out way over weight.
    This post is a natural product. Variances in spelling & grammar should be appreciated as part of its character & beauty.

  31. #231
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Posts
    3,110
    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    There are a good number of very serious cancer survivors and heart attack survivors, etc. on this site that pedal bicycles. Also riders who started out way over weight.
    And that is great for them. However, I'm not sure what your point is...

    Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

  32. #232
    Location: 10 ft from Hell Moderator
    Reputation: life behind bars's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    4,451
    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    There are a good number of very serious cancer survivors and heart attack survivors, etc. on this site that pedal bicycles. Also riders who started out way over weight.



    "Needing" a mobility device is a lot different than simply wanting one. I question the veracity of many of these anecdotal tales that are made on behalf of the "miraculous" e-motorbike. If you want one just say so but making spurious claims about "need" is doing a disservice to people that do have legitimate need. If you're that bad off, get an ADA placard but don't blow smoke to advance an agenda.
    I ncredibly
    M yopic
    B ackstabbing
    A ssholes

  33. #233
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    8,827
    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    "Needing" a mobility device is a lot different than simply wanting one.
    Same goes for mountain bikes. Nobody 'needs' one of those either.
    Sinister Bikes
    Wraith Bicycles
    Sunday River Mtn Bike Park
    NEMBA
    Wachusett Brewing Co.

  34. #234
    Location: 10 ft from Hell Moderator
    Reputation: life behind bars's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    4,451
    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    Same goes for mountain bikes. Nobody 'needs' one of those either.




    I don't see a lot of claims that anyone does, unlike e-motorbikes.
    I ncredibly
    M yopic
    B ackstabbing
    A ssholes

  35. #235
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Posts
    3,110
    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    I don't see a lot of claims that anyone does, unlike e-motorbikes.
    I don't see many claims for e-bikes that use the word need in the Maslow sense either.

    Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

  36. #236
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    8,827
    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    I don't see a lot of claims that anyone does, unlike e-motorbikes.
    So people who choose to play with certain vehicles they don't need are unhappy that other people might choose to play with different vehicles, cuz they don't need them?

    Hmmm...I could use an explanation of exactly how that isn't some very f'ed up logic...
    Sinister Bikes
    Wraith Bicycles
    Sunday River Mtn Bike Park
    NEMBA
    Wachusett Brewing Co.

  37. #237
    Location: 10 ft from Hell Moderator
    Reputation: life behind bars's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    4,451
    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    So people who choose to play with certain vehicles they don't need are unhappy that other people might choose to play with different vehicles, cuz they don't need them?

    Hmmm...I could use an explanation of exactly how that isn't some very f'ed up logic...



    That's not what was posted. Twisting what was isn't doing anyone service. People making spurious claims about "needing" anything when they don't is the point in case you missed it. I don't care what people want, just don't make claims of needing it to make yourself feel better about being a tool.
    I ncredibly
    M yopic
    B ackstabbing
    A ssholes

  38. #238
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Posts
    3,110
    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    That's not what was posted. Twisting what was isn't doing anyone service. People making spurious claims about "needing" anything when they don't is the point in case you missed it. I don't care what people want, just don't make claims of needing it to make yourself feel better about being a tool.
    Making spurious claims while complaining about others making spurious claims. This thread has suddenly got entertaining if not enlightening.

    Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

  39. #239
    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ SuperModerator
    Reputation: Klurejr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    7,380
    Quote Originally Posted by PierreR View Post
    Once you have experienced a health issue you realize how short life is and how quickly you can be gone. Your perspective changes and you will choose funner more fulfilling ways to accomplish the same tasks.
    http://forums.mtbr.com/california-so...on-805994.html

    While I realize how much fun an eMTB would be on my local trails, I choose to pedal under my own power and recover without a motor.

    Not everyone is looking for the easy way out.
    Ride Bikes, Drink Craft Beer, Repeat.

    Know these before you post:
    MTBR Posting Guidelines

  40. #240
    Location: 10 ft from Hell Moderator
    Reputation: life behind bars's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    4,451
    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post

    Not everyone is looking for the easy way out.






    This is quote worthy.
    I ncredibly
    M yopic
    B ackstabbing
    A ssholes

  41. #241
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    8,827
    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    That's not what was posted. Twisting what was isn't doing anyone service. People making spurious claims about "needing" anything when they don't is the point in case you missed it. I don't care what people want, just don't make claims of needing it to make yourself feel better about being a tool.
    Okay. So we agree that nobody needs a bike at all, e- or otherwise.
    So everyone riding is riding what they like simply because that's what they like.
    Therefore, no one occupies any sort of high ground as far as who 'needs' or doesn't 'need' anything.
    Am I correct there?

    And there is no imperative that I'm aware of decreeing that all leisure time activities need to be based strictly on getting as much exercise as possible, correct again?

    So, I guess I'm really missing the point as to why people give a damn how much exercise someone else gets or doesn't get, or how they get it. It's obvious that there are people riding e-bikes and getting some exercise. I don't see how that automatically turns into some sort of challenge for others to start waving their fitness e-dicks around. Maybe some of you guys should go start doing Crossfit comps or something, see who can be The Best Exerciser Ever.
    Sinister Bikes
    Wraith Bicycles
    Sunday River Mtn Bike Park
    NEMBA
    Wachusett Brewing Co.

  42. #242
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    8,827
    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    http://forums.mtbr.com/california-so...on-805994.html

    While I realize how much fun an eMTB would be on my local trails, I choose to pedal under my own power and recover without a motor.

    Not everyone is looking for the easy way out.
    Great.
    But so what if some people make different choices than you do?
    Not sure how that's anyone else's business but theirs.
    Sinister Bikes
    Wraith Bicycles
    Sunday River Mtn Bike Park
    NEMBA
    Wachusett Brewing Co.

  43. #243
    Location: 10 ft from Hell Moderator
    Reputation: life behind bars's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    4,451
    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    Okay. So we agree that nobody needs a bike at all, e- or otherwise.
    So everyone riding is riding what they like simply because that's what they like.
    Therefore, no one occupies any sort of high ground as far as who 'needs' or doesn't 'need' anything.
    Am I correct there?

    And there is no imperative that I'm aware of decreeing that all leisure time activities need to be based strictly on getting as much exercise as possible, correct again?

    So, I guess I'm really missing the point as to why people give a damn how much exercise someone else gets or doesn't get, or how they get it. It's obvious that there are people riding e-bikes and getting some exercise. I don't see how that automatically turns into some sort of challenge for others to start waving their fitness e-dicks around. Maybe some of you guys should go start doing Crossfit comps or something, see who can be The Best Exerciser Ever.



    Yes, you missed the point.
    I ncredibly
    M yopic
    B ackstabbing
    A ssholes

  44. #244
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    8,827
    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    Yes, you missed the point.
    So, what is it?

    Why do you care how much exercise someone else gets or doesn't get, or how they get it?
    Sinister Bikes
    Wraith Bicycles
    Sunday River Mtn Bike Park
    NEMBA
    Wachusett Brewing Co.

  45. #245
    Location: 10 ft from Hell Moderator
    Reputation: life behind bars's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    4,451
    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    So, what is it?

    Why do you care how much exercise someone else gets or doesn't get, or how they get it?




    If you missed the point in the first place you won't understand it a second time around.
    I ncredibly
    M yopic
    B ackstabbing
    A ssholes

  46. #246
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    8,827
    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    If you missed the point in the first place you won't understand it a second time around.
    FWIW, I'm not terrible at understanding things, so please...feel free to explain why you care so much about the fitness levels of strangers.
    Sinister Bikes
    Wraith Bicycles
    Sunday River Mtn Bike Park
    NEMBA
    Wachusett Brewing Co.

  47. #247
    mtbr member
    Reputation: sfgiantsfan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    2,191
    Quote Originally Posted by PierreR View Post
    I will cut him some slack as I had the same myoptic view when I was younger. I suspect he as never gotten behind the 8 ball health wise and suffered any kind of chronic fatigue, chronic illness or long difficult recovery.

    I can just about be certain that by the time he is 150 years old he will have experienced declining health.


    Once you have experienced a health issue you realize how short life is and how quickly you can be gone. Your perspective changes and you will choose funner more fulfilling ways to accomplish the same tasks.

    I told my brother about this thread and his answer was "Tell them nay sayers that I can throw a regular bike further than I am going to ride one." Interesting take on it as I has seen him lift a concert grand piano and put it in the back of a truck. At 6' 4" and 285 lb he has a lot of muscle from rebuilding heavy machinery and needs something like the e bike to loosen up stiffness and balance out muscles. Setting the assist level for light fast pedaling helps him quite a bit after moving heavy parts around all day.

    Its not raining, I am going to go cheat for about 30 miles or so on my big fat e bike. All pavement.
    Type 1 diabetic. At 36 herniated L4-L5, got so bad I could not walk 50 yards without stopping. I was taking 6-10 Norco/day. One day I had to go get my mail and I jumped on my old bike so I could make it in one shot. I didn't have any pain so I rode to town and back. Within one week I was off the norcs and riding as much as possible. Got fully back in to mtbing and snowboarding. I was feeling so good I started riding dirt bikes again. Right after my 40th bday I rode one right in to a tree. Herniated my C4-C6 and was paralyzed for about 1 hour. Long enough to plan who was going to help me kill myself because I was not going to be a quad. Spent 2 mos in the hospital, had to learn to feed myself and walk all over again. My hands are still numb all the time and its been almost ten years. All my muscle memory was erased. I had to learn to ride a bike again. I still can't snowboard because it is heart breaking for me to have no clue how to ride.

    Did it all on a regular mountain bike. I am very happy for the people you know that got help through ebikes but it is very disingenuous to say that it is the only way they could get help. That is all that I am saying, non one needs an ebike to get healthy
    I'm sick of all the Irish stereotypes, as soon as I finish this beer I"m punching someone

  48. #248
    banned
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    552
    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    Okay. So we agree that nobody needs a bike at all, e- or otherwise.
    So everyone riding is riding what they like simply because that's what they like.
    Therefore, no one occupies any sort of high ground as far as who 'needs' or doesn't 'need' anything.
    Am I correct there?

    And there is no imperative that I'm aware of decreeing that all leisure time activities need to be based strictly on getting as much exercise as possible, correct again?

    So, I guess I'm really missing the point as to why people give a damn how much exercise someone else gets or doesn't get, or how they get it. It's obvious that there are people riding e-bikes and getting some exercise. I don't see how that automatically turns into some sort of challenge for others to start waving their fitness e-dicks around. Maybe some of you guys should go start doing Crossfit comps or something, see who can be The Best Exerciser Ever.
    I think you have hit the nail right on the head!!

  49. #249
    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ SuperModerator
    Reputation: Klurejr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    7,380
    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    Great.
    But so what if some people make different choices than you do?
    Not sure how that's anyone else's business but theirs.
    Go look at the statement made by Peirre, he was inferring that if someone faces a major health challenge in life they WILL change how they approach exercise and take the easy way out. I was merely contradicting his statement with my own personal experience.

    Some people will chose the easy way out after such an experience, but not ALL.
    Ride Bikes, Drink Craft Beer, Repeat.

    Know these before you post:
    MTBR Posting Guidelines

  50. #250
    mtbr member
    Reputation: sfgiantsfan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    2,191
    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    Well, that would imply that I was part of a group of people to whom that could be attributed. Considering I have never said, agreed with, or will agree with what you attributed to a group you included me in you're just digging your hole deeper.

    Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
    I said you called me out for my interpretation of the law. You have not called out any pro ebike guys who interpret the law to say their bikes are not motorized. Didn't mean to imply you said it, just that you never called them out.
    I'm sick of all the Irish stereotypes, as soon as I finish this beer I"m punching someone

  51. #251
    banned
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    552
    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    Go look at the statement made by Peirre, he was inferring that if someone faces a major health challenge in life they WILL change how they approach exercise and take the easy way out. I was merely contradicting his statement with my own personal experience.

    Some people will chose the easy way out after such an experience, but not ALL.
    But you make the assumption that riding an eBike would be the easy way out. I disagree.

    For me, I don't think I have ever regretted going for a ride. I always feel great when I'm done. But the lazy streak in me tries to find excuses as to why I should stay on the couch. Sometimes, I tell myself that "I'll just go for an easy ride". But when I get on my bike, it almost always turns out to be much more than what I planned. I suspect that is true with many people. An eBike may provide incentive to get off of that couch for many people. Once on the bike, the level of exercise is based entirely on the individual and his love for being on two wheels.

    I believe that the assumption that riding an eBike is only for the lazy is about as wrong-headed as it can be. By that same logic, riding a dirt-bike should be a leisurely activity. But when I used to ride dirt bikes, I would typically come back from a ride physically spent. Most dirt bikers would likely agree.


    I'm sure that there are runners who would argue that riding a bicycle is lazy because it is mechanically assisted transportation. But they would be wrong too.

  52. #252
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    8,827
    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    Go look at the statement made by Peirre, he was inferring that if someone faces a major health challenge in life they WILL change how they approach exercise and take the easy way out. I was merely contradicting his statement with my own personal experience.

    Some people will chose the easy way out after such an experience, but not ALL.
    No, you are correct: people will choose what they want to choose, for their own reasons. I also shared a couple examples of people I know that choose to ride mountain bikes rather than e-bikes, so I get what your saying, but I personally think the 'easy way out' would be to just give up and retire to the couch.

    Also I'm sure there are many people with similar experiences that do even more than you, so I guess it would be fair to also say that you're taking the easy way out, comparatively.
    Sinister Bikes
    Wraith Bicycles
    Sunday River Mtn Bike Park
    NEMBA
    Wachusett Brewing Co.

  53. #253
    banned
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    552
    Quote Originally Posted by sfgiantsfan View Post
    I said you called me out for my interpretation of the law. You have not called out any pro ebike guys who interpret the law to say their bikes are not motorized. Didn't mean to imply you said it, just that you never called them out.
    No pro eBiker that I have seen has ever said that an eBike is not motorized. Many have made the observation that several states/local governments have decided that they will be treated the same as bicycles for legal/access purposes. Also, I have made the observation that class 1 eBikes do not fit the legal definition of a motorized vehicle. And I am right. But that does not mean that I believe an eBike doesn't have a motor.

    It really means nothing when you just make stuff up and then criticize others based on your fantasies. You should try harder to get your facts straight.

  54. #254
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Posts
    3,110
    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    Go look at the statement made by Peirre, he was inferring that if someone faces a major health challenge in life they WILL change how they approach exercise and take the easy way out. I was merely contradicting his statement with my own personal experience.

    Some people will chose the easy way out after such an experience, but not ALL.
    The writer implies the reader infers...

    It's also disingenuous to consider an e-bike the easy way out. There are multiple studies, using that term loosely, that show energy expenditure for the same length ride can be the same or higher on an e-bike.

    Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

  55. #255
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Posts
    3,110
    Quote Originally Posted by sfgiantsfan View Post
    I said you called me out for my interpretation of the law. You have not called out any pro ebike guys who interpret the law to say their bikes are not motorized. Didn't mean to imply you said it, just that you never called them out.
    So you're crying because I'm being mean to you? Life isn't fair.

    Also, you do understand that asserting something is managed as a non-motorized vehicle is not the same as saying it has no motor, yes? It goes back to the little things that you find boring.

    Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

  56. #256
    mtbr member
    Reputation: sfgiantsfan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    2,191
    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    So you're crying because I'm being mean to you? Life isn't fair.

    Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
    Not crying, just trying to explain my post so you can quit being such a jack about it.
    I'm sick of all the Irish stereotypes, as soon as I finish this beer I"m punching someone

  57. #257
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Posts
    3,110
    Quote Originally Posted by sfgiantsfan View Post
    Not crying, just trying to explain my post so you can quit being such a jack about it.
    It sounds like crying to me. You basically said you singled me out, you big meanie. As to explaining your post, changing what you said is not explaining. Try to pay more attention to the boring stuff, maybe you won't be so confused next time.

    Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

  58. #258
    banned
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    552
    Quote Originally Posted by sfgiantsfan View Post
    Not crying, just trying to explain my post so you can quit being such a jack about it.
    When you find yourself in a hole, you should stop digging.

  59. #259
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Wacha Wacha Wacha's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2017
    Posts
    451
    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    This is quote worthy.
    Everyone should go watch Beautiful Idiot and realize who they are. Reading this thread, it’s clear...


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  60. #260
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    355
    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    How many is that in pedal bike miles.
    I can tell you pretty close. My mileage was 36.8 with an average speed of 14.2. I used 196 watt hours for the ride. That equates to 5.3 watt hours per mile. If I would have used throttle for that route, I would have consumed about 19.2 watt hours per mile. If we take (19.2-5.3)/19.2 X 36.8 we get 26.6 miles equivalent in terms of calories consumed. In terms of joint and muscle movement it would be the full 36.8 miles. I have a cadence of 85 to 100 rpm.

  61. #261
    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ SuperModerator
    Reputation: Klurejr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    7,380
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_bo View Post
    But you make the assumption that riding an eBike would be the easy way out. I disagree.
    Let me re-phrase then.

    Riding a bike without a motor is harder and uses more energy than riding a bike with a motor to assist the rider as long as conditions match; length of ride, elevation, etc.

    Yes an eBike "can" be a harder workout if you shut off the motor or ride it further or up more elevation.

    In my case I generally only have time to ride once a week for about 2 hours. I ride with the same group of friends and am one of the slower climbers, if I got an eBike I could beat them all to the top of the climbs every-time, I am quite certain of that. We as a group might be able to add a little bit of distance to the weekly ride. I don't think I would get more exercise by doing that and I would feel like I was cheating myself by adding a motor to the mix.

    If someone else wants to ride an eBike where they are legally allowed and ride it in a manner that is safe and courteous to other trail users, I have no problem with that and would not accuse them of being lazy.
    Ride Bikes, Drink Craft Beer, Repeat.

    Know these before you post:
    MTBR Posting Guidelines

  62. #262
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Posts
    3,110
    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    Let me re-phrase then.

    Riding a bike without a motor is harder and uses more energy than riding a bike with a motor to assist the rider as long as conditions match; length of ride, elevation, etc.

    Yes an eBike "can" be a harder workout if you shut off the motor or ride it further or up more elevation.

    In my case I generally only have time to ride once a week for about 2 hours. I ride with the same group of friends and am one of the slower climbers, if I got an eBike I could beat them all to the top of the climbs every-time, I am quite certain of that. We as a group might be able to add a little bit of distance to the weekly ride. I don't think I would get more exercise by doing that and I would feel like I was cheating myself by adding a motor to the mix.
    You're speaking in absolutes that do not exist. In your case you are constrained by two variables. One that would be tough to change and one that is preference. You are time constrained. Inside of that constraint there is nothing stopping you from getting the same or a better workout on an e-bike, even with the motor on. The second variable is the desire to stay with your group. That's a personal preference. Not everyone will be constrained by that so the assertion of a pedal bike being harder and using more energy is patently false.



    Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

  63. #263
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    355
    Quote Originally Posted by sfgiantsfan View Post
    Type 1 diabetic. At 36 herniated L4-L5, got so bad I could not walk 50 yards without stopping. I was taking 6-10 Norco/day. One day I had to go get my mail and I jumped on my old bike so I could make it in one shot. I didn't have any pain so I rode to town and back. Within one week I was off the norcs and riding as much as possible. Got fully back in to mtbing and snowboarding. I was feeling so good I started riding dirt bikes again. Right after my 40th bday I rode one right in to a tree. Herniated my C4-C6 and was paralyzed for about 1 hour. Long enough to plan who was going to help me kill myself because I was not going to be a quad. Spent 2 mos in the hospital, had to learn to feed myself and walk all over again. My hands are still numb all the time and its been almost ten years. All my muscle memory was erased. I had to learn to ride a bike again. I still can't snowboard because it is heart breaking for me to have no clue how to ride.

    Did it all on a regular mountain bike. I am very happy for the people you know that got help through ebikes but it is very disingenuous to say that it is the only way they could get help. That is all that I am saying, non one needs an ebike to get healthy
    How much proprioception do you still have. A bike balances itself dynamically if you let it but a snowboard does not and generally requires better than average proprioception for dynamic balance.


    Your attitude is interesting. The 80 year old type 1 since youth that I ride with generally clings to his regular bike very stubbornly even when he should not. I have put him on my bike and rode his a few times when the temps were hot and he was in obvious distress. He has some difficulty recognizing low sugar. Seems to do okay recognizing high sugar. He has slowed down a lot in the last two years.


    "No one needs an e bike to get healthy" Dah!, that is so profoundly oblivious as to not even be needed in print. The e bike is a tool and like every other tool has is best uses and limitations.

    On my ride today I ran into 7 other e bikers. All of them were elderly, most of them had some sort of health issues, none of them were in great shape and all of them paid less than $2,000 for their bikes. There were three separate groups of two, two and three. The group of three had just purchased their bikes and had one other ride the day before.


    Not one of them purchased their bikes with the idea of fitness and exercise. Two flat out stated that had someone told them it would give them exercise they would have turned and ran the other way. Five of them were hoping for better joint mobility through going through the pedaling motions. All were very surprised to find a fitness benefit. Not one of them would ride a regular bike, been there, done that its boring.

    All of them mentioned that they bought the bikes to be able to do something together that was outdoors and away from distractions. That was their main purchasing reason.

    There biggest concerns were a lack of people in the area that could repair their bikes. All of them had saddles I would refer to as lazy boy couches. The one piece of equipment that I have they most wanted is the LEV dropper post.

  64. #264
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    355
    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    Go look at the statement made by Peirre, he was inferring that if someone faces a major health challenge in life they WILL change how they approach exercise and take the easy way out. I was merely contradicting his statement with my own personal experience.

    Some people will chose the easy way out after such an experience, but not ALL.
    This is most certainly NOT what I meant. Here is what I wrote: "Once you have experienced a health issue you realize how short life is and how quickly you can be gone. Your perspective changes and you will choose funner more fulfilling ways to accomplish the same tasks."

    Funner more fulfilling ways does not imply the easy way out unless you equate fun and fulfilling with easy. It does imply more bang for the buck and for some, that may be doubling down. For others it may mean getting an e bike to experience more with the same effort.

  65. #265
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    5,522
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_bo View Post
    No pro eBiker that I have seen has ever said that an eBike is not motorized. Many have made the observation that several states/local governments have decided that they will be treated the same as bicycles for legal/access purposes. Also, I have made the observation that class 1 eBikes do not fit the legal definition of a motorized vehicle. And I am right. But that does not mean that I believe an eBike doesn't have a motor.

    It really means nothing when you just make stuff up and then criticize others based on your fantasies. You should try harder to get your facts straight.
    It has a motor but it's not a motorized vehicle? Hmmm. Ok. Legal definition is only what the land manager/ land agency decides what it is.

  66. #266
    Cycologist
    Reputation: chazpat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    6,674
    Quote Originally Posted by PierreR View Post
    How much proprioception do you still have. A bike balances itself dynamically if you let it but a snowboard does not and generally requires better than average proprioception for dynamic balance.


    Your attitude is interesting. The 80 year old type 1 since youth that I ride with generally clings to his regular bike very stubbornly even when he should not. I have put him on my bike and rode his a few times when the temps were hot and he was in obvious distress. He has some difficulty recognizing low sugar. Seems to do okay recognizing high sugar. He has slowed down a lot in the last two years.


    "No one needs an e bike to get healthy" Dah!, that is so profoundly oblivious as to not even be needed in print. The e bike is a tool and like every other tool has is best uses and limitations.

    On my ride today I ran into 7 other e bikers. All of them were elderly, most of them had some sort of health issues, none of them were in great shape and all of them paid less than $2,000 for their bikes. There were three separate groups of two, two and three. The group of three had just purchased their bikes and had one other ride the day before.


    Not one of them purchased their bikes with the idea of fitness and exercise. Two flat out stated that had someone told them it would give them exercise they would have turned and ran the other way. Five of them were hoping for better joint mobility through going through the pedaling motions. All were very surprised to find a fitness benefit. Not one of them would ride a regular bike, been there, done that its boring.

    All of them mentioned that they bought the bikes to be able to do something together that was outdoors and away from distractions. That was their main purchasing reason.

    There biggest concerns were a lack of people in the area that could repair their bikes. All of them had saddles I would refer to as lazy boy couches. The one piece of equipment that I have they most wanted is the LEV dropper post.
    Again, you're talking about ebikes on pavement and not on trails, right? Being that this is a "trail" site, most of us are referring to emtbs when we say ebikes as that is what we're concerned about.
    This post is a natural product. Variances in spelling & grammar should be appreciated as part of its character & beauty.

  67. #267
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    8,827
    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    Again, you're talking about ebikes on pavement and not on trails, right? Being that this is a "trail" site, most of us are referring to emtbs when we say ebikes as that is what we're concerned about.
    Ah...but this isn't a really thread about access concerns (for once), it's about fitness benefits (or lack thereof) of ebikes...just because some he may be using examples that aren't necessarily on MTB trails doesn't mean the same thing wouldn't/doesn't apply to people that use them on dirt.
    Sinister Bikes
    Wraith Bicycles
    Sunday River Mtn Bike Park
    NEMBA
    Wachusett Brewing Co.

  68. #268
    banned
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    552
    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    Let me re-phrase then.

    Riding a bike without a motor is harder and uses more energy than riding a bike with a motor to assist the rider as long as conditions match; length of ride, elevation, etc.

    Yes an eBike "can" be a harder workout if you shut off the motor or ride it further or up more elevation.

    In my case I generally only have time to ride once a week for about 2 hours. I ride with the same group of friends and am one of the slower climbers, if I got an eBike I could beat them all to the top of the climbs every-time, I am quite certain of that. We as a group might be able to add a little bit of distance to the weekly ride. I don't think I would get more exercise by doing that and I would feel like I was cheating myself by adding a motor to the mix.

    If someone else wants to ride an eBike where they are legally allowed and ride it in a manner that is safe and courteous to other trail users, I have no problem with that and would not accuse them of being lazy.
    Again with the cherry picking of data. You assume that a person on an eBike has to choose the same trail or same distance as they would on an mtb. The only thing that holds those variables constant is your bias against ebikes.

  69. #269
    banned
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    552
    Quote Originally Posted by leeboh View Post
    It has a motor but it's not a motorized vehicle? Hmmm. Ok. Legal definition is only what the land manager/ land agency decides what it is.
    No, you're wrong. The legal definition comes from federal law, so it is what Congress decides it is.

  70. #270
    10,000,000 Watts
    Reputation: Gutch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    2,763
    Idc what anyone does for enjoyment and/or exercise. I can tell you the other day I ripped my emtb and it was one of the funnest days spent on two wheels. I was cooked afterwards. Beer tasted awesome!
    Mountain Bikers Do It Til They Bonk!

  71. #271
    Cycologist
    Reputation: chazpat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    6,674
    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    Ah...but this isn't a really thread about access concerns (for once), it's about fitness benefits (or lack thereof) of ebikes...just because some he may be using examples that aren't necessarily on MTB trails doesn't mean the same thing wouldn't/doesn't apply to people that use them on dirt.
    Well, he is talking about very elderly people and previously about very obese people. So while you are correct that this thread is about fitness benefits, I think most of us around here think in terms of bikes on trails and Pierre was not and seemed to be taking people's attitudes as snubbing the elderly riding ebikes on pavement. People are free to do what they want to do (as long as it's legal) but I still can't get onboard with something that encourages less exercise to a person capable of riding unassisted (check Battery's thread, he started on a bicycle at 285 lbs). For me, it's either ride a bicycle or ride a motorcycle; I don't really get the "ride an easy bicycle/weak motorcycle" thing. Some, like Tucker, may claim ebikes do not encourage less exercise but I think for a lot people, they will.
    This post is a natural product. Variances in spelling & grammar should be appreciated as part of its character & beauty.

  72. #272
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Posts
    3,110
    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    Some, like Tucker, may claim ebikes do not encourage less exercise but I think for a lot people, they will.
    Not what I said...

    Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

  73. #273
    Cycologist
    Reputation: chazpat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    6,674
    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    Not what I said...

    Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
    Hence the "may".
    This post is a natural product. Variances in spelling & grammar should be appreciated as part of its character & beauty.

  74. #274
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Posts
    3,110
    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    Hence the "backpedal".
    FIFY

    You went back and read those posts a bit more carefully this time didn't you?

    I haven't claimed that nor will I claim that.

    Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

  75. #275
    Cycologist
    Reputation: chazpat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    6,674
    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    FIFY

    You went back and read those posts a bit more carefully this time didn't you?

    I haven't claimed that nor will I claim that.

    Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
    wtf? No I didn't backpedal, I just pointed out to you what I had written. Maybe you need to read more carefully.
    This post is a natural product. Variances in spelling & grammar should be appreciated as part of its character & beauty.

  76. #276
    mtbr member
    Reputation: ALimon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Posts
    845
    I thought about posting on this topic, but after reading the bickering and the same ole weak arguments over n over I’ll just sit back and watch the shit show from a distance.

  77. #277
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Posts
    3,110
    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    wtf? No I didn't backpedal, I just pointed out to you what I had written. Maybe you need to read more carefully.
    Uh huh

    Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

  78. #278
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    8,827
    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    I still can't get onboard with something that encourages less exercise to a person capable of riding unassisted .
    So...aren't you also 'capable' of more exercise than you get currently?

    I don't think I can get behind encouraging people to mountain bike because they could be training for American Ninja Warrior 14 hours a day instead. Mountain biking is the easy way out. You must be lazy.
    Sinister Bikes
    Wraith Bicycles
    Sunday River Mtn Bike Park
    NEMBA
    Wachusett Brewing Co.

  79. #279
    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ SuperModerator
    Reputation: Klurejr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    7,380
    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    Not everyone will be constrained by that so the assertion of a pedal bike being harder and using more energy is patently false.
    Are you stating then that everyone riding an eBike will get more exercise than someone riding a pedal bike then? Your arguments are very confusing.

    I simply gave a real world example of my riding time and distance, something that is very similar to many other riders out there.

    Yes I COULD choose to not ride with my buddies and put down a few more miles in my 2 hour window, but I am not going to choose that because spending time with my friends AND getting a good workout are more important to me than just getting a few extra miles, those extra miles do not automatically equate a better workout. I would need to wear a heart rate monitor at the very least and track some data from what my typical 2-hour ride is and then compare it to riding a bike with motor assist during those 2 hours and getting some additional mileage in.

    I do not think it is a stretch to say the difference would be too small to make a difference. But it would be interesting to see a true study done to show the results.
    Ride Bikes, Drink Craft Beer, Repeat.

    Know these before you post:
    MTBR Posting Guidelines

  80. #280
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    2,827
    Somewhat related - I rode my eMTB to work today, 3 miles on a road and 5 miles on a paved bike path. I put my work shirt in my Camelbak and wore a T-shirt, and changed shirts when I arrived. Used Sport and Turbo so I wouldn't have to break too much of a sweat although I did sweat a little. I arrived at work feeling much better than if I had driven. There is no way to ride a bicycle and not use many more muscles than you would expect, and also certain parts of your brain that otherwise are underutilized.

    Riding an eMTB on an actual MTB trail you would use even more muscles and more of your brain. Anyone who thinks riding an eBike involves sitting statically and using no muscles is A) Clueless and B) Has obviously never ridden an eBike.

  81. #281
    Cycologist
    Reputation: chazpat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    6,674
    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    So...aren't you also 'capable' of more exercise than you get currently?

    I don't think I can get behind encouraging people to mountain bike because they could be training for American Ninja Warrior 14 hours a day instead. Mountain biking is the easy way out. You must be lazy.
    Considering I often burn more calories than I intake and lose weight I don't need to lose, no, not really. And considering the increasing obesity rates in the US, I'll stick to what I said.

    https://stateofobesity.org/adult-obesity/
    This post is a natural product. Variances in spelling & grammar should be appreciated as part of its character & beauty.

  82. #282
    mtbr member
    Reputation: J.B. Weld's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    14,143
    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    Let me re-phrase then.

    Riding a bike without a motor is harder and uses more energy than riding a bike with a motor to assist the rider as long as conditions match; length of ride, elevation, etc.

    That's not really true, in either case it depends on how hard you ride. If 2 rides are the same length someone on an ebike could average higher watts (from their legs) than someone on a bicycle just cruising and do the ride in half the time.

    Or someone on an hour bicycle ride might go 10 miles and average 150 watts whereas someone else might go for a 1 hour ebike ride and go 20 miles while averaging 175 watts (legs). Motor or not how much energy you expend depends on how hard you pedal.

    That said I'd guess very few people on ebikes actually push as many watts as their non-motorized counterparts.
    I brake for stinkbugs

  83. #283
    mtbr member
    Reputation: J.B. Weld's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    14,143
    Quote Originally Posted by honkinunit View Post
    There is no way to ride a bicycle and not use many more muscles than you would expect, and also certain parts of your brain that otherwise are underutilized.

    Riding an eMTB on an actual MTB trail you would use even more muscles and more of your brain.
    ^what does that mean? Do you use more brain on an electric bike? or a bicycle?
    I brake for stinkbugs

  84. #284
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Posts
    3,110
    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    Are you stating then that everyone riding an eBike will get more exercise than someone riding a pedal bike then? Your arguments are very confusing.

    I simply gave a real world example of my riding time and distance, something that is very similar to many other riders out there.

    Yes I COULD choose to not ride with my buddies and put down a few more miles in my 2 hour window, but I am not going to choose that because spending time with my friends AND getting a good workout are more important to me than just getting a few extra miles, those extra miles do not automatically equate a better workout. I would need to wear a heart rate monitor at the very least and track some data from what my typical 2-hour ride is and then compare it to riding a bike with motor assist during those 2 hours and getting some additional mileage in.

    I do not think it is a stretch to say the difference would be too small to make a difference. But it would be interesting to see a true study done to show the results.
    My arguments are "confusing" because they are based in a premise that you refuse to even acknowledge, much less accept. You acknowledge that in your world not getting the same workout is purely based on personal preference, riding with your buddies. That is not true for every one, some ride alone, especially for training purposes. Heck, would could even make a semi intelligent argument that giving the slowest people in the group e-bikes could create a better workout for everyone.

    The study you are looking for is out there. It was posted on this site some time ago. A bike mag sent a guy out on a time constrained ride using a pedal bike and then an e-bike with the goal being max miles. Of course the e-bike went further but they were shocked that rider output and average heart rate were actually higher on the e-bike. I saw at least one other mag repeat this but it's been so long I forget the who. Yes, you will find pro e-bike rags touting the opposite. The difference is those are typically not full out time trial efforts.

    Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

  85. #285
    banned
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    552
    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    Are you stating then that everyone riding an eBike will get more exercise than someone riding a pedal bike then? Your arguments are very confusing.

    I simply gave a real world example of my riding time and distance, something that is very similar to many other riders out there.
    Wow. You just won't stop. You cherry picked your data points, unreasonably constrained the equation,, and came to a biased conclusion that fits your agenda. By your methodology, I could literally prove any point I wanted to be true.

  86. #286
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    8,827
    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    Considering I often burn more calories than I intake and lose weight I don't need to lose, no, not really. And considering the increasing obesity rates in the US, I'll stick to what I said.

    https://stateofobesity.org/adult-obesity/
    So you believe that your personal level and method of exercise is the benchmark every other person should strive to match? And futher that it's impossible to output more calories than one takes using an e-bike?

    Don't buy any of it. I know plenty of overweight people that ride regular bikes.
    Don't believe that it's impossible for you to exercise more either.

    I'm still totally confused why some of you care so much about how and how much exercise complete strangers may or may not be getting compared to yourselves.
    Weird, weird stuff.
    Sinister Bikes
    Wraith Bicycles
    Sunday River Mtn Bike Park
    NEMBA
    Wachusett Brewing Co.

  87. #287
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    8,827
    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    That said I'd guess very few people on ebikes actually push as many watts as their non-motorized counterparts.
    I don't push as many watts as many other mountain bikers I'm sure.

    So what?
    Sinister Bikes
    Wraith Bicycles
    Sunday River Mtn Bike Park
    NEMBA
    Wachusett Brewing Co.

  88. #288
    mtbr member
    Reputation: J.B. Weld's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    14,143
    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    I don't push as many watts as many other mountain bikers I'm sure.

    So what?

    So nothing, just saying.
    I brake for stinkbugs

  89. #289
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Posts
    9

    Ebikes are getting people fit. Good article.

    I am amazed at the anti ebike talk in here. Class one emtb will not harm trails if respectfully ridden. Just like regular bikes. There are always gonna be a small percentage of assholes on all types of bikes. The guys that are saying that you won’t improve health by peddling a ebike for one or more hrs is full of crap. One hr of heart beats that are in a range for fitness will help. Oh now they talk about efficiency, you can get off you reg bike and run up hills too. Running is more efficient than biking. Run with weight packs. My point is respect the trails, share the trails, turn in assholes who don’t. Ebike are here to stay. There is money to increase knowledge and access to more trails.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

  90. #290
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    8,827
    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    ^what does that mean? Do you use more brain on an electric bike? or a bicycle?
    He means he believe you would use your brain more on the trail than on a paved path.
    Sinister Bikes
    Wraith Bicycles
    Sunday River Mtn Bike Park
    NEMBA
    Wachusett Brewing Co.

  91. #291
    Not a role model
    Reputation: ninjichor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2018
    Posts
    1,311
    In the end, getting fit is a result of putting repeated demand on the body for fitness. Your body becomes more efficient at whatever you have it repeat, simple as that.

    One of the laziest things people do is drive a car. One of the laziest things mtbers do is drive their bike to the trailhead, and/or take a shuttle/chairlift up to the top. If you could replace this with something that was powered by your own body, even partly (assisted by a motor), that is a benefit to your fitness. People have plenty of excuses not to do this though. Ebikes are poised to address quite a lot of those excuses. I find that's reason enough for their existence. There's plenty more reasons, but since they don't apply to me I won't try to speak for others, like the disabled or those that aren't fit enough to keep up with riding partners. There will be people still driving their ebikes to the trailhead and taking shuttle/chairlift up, but for those that choose to use it for more fitness, I applaud them.

    I've tried to understand the anti-ebike side of the argument, who try to criminalize them by calling for bans, but I find myself criticizing the person's character more than their argument, so I don't even try anymore. I've used words like crazy, stupid, narrow minded, but is that not like just saying they're human? Really, who isn't a little crazy, stupid, and narrow minded? I'd like to meet them. Just my nature to not judge the tool, but rather judge the user of the tool. If people are assholes about ebikes, assholes while riding regular bikes, I question if they're not also assholes about other stuff. Maybe they know they'd be also assholes on ebikes, but be more enabled, and are worried that there are more people out there that are like them. I know they're out there, but gotta take the good with the bad; can't deny things just because there's arguments against it. There's arguments virtually everything, probably even the most good you can think of.

  92. #292
    Moderator Moderator
    Reputation: Harryman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    2,858
    Quote Originally Posted by tretopflir View Post
    There is money to increase knowledge and access to more trails.
    Send it to me, I'll build trails with it.

    This thread has reached new levels of silliness, even for the ebike forum.

  93. #293
    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ SuperModerator
    Reputation: Klurejr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    7,380
    Quote Originally Posted by honkinunit View Post
    Riding an eMTB on an actual MTB trail you would use even more muscles and more of your brain. Anyone who thinks riding an eBike involves sitting statically and using no muscles is A) Clueless and B) Has obviously never ridden an eBike.
    Agreed, that would be very faulty reasoning and I do not believe anyone has posted on this site that they believe riding a pedelec eBike uses no muscles, most (including me) are simple stating when you have a motor to assist on the climbs you use less energy to get to the top of the hill in the same amount of time or faster.

    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    That's not really true, in either case it depends on how hard you ride. If 2 rides are the same length someone on an ebike could average higher watts (from their legs) than someone on a bicycle just cruising and do the ride in half the time.
    Please clarify this for me. If I go ride for a specific amount of time(in my personal example i gave 2 hours) on a pedal bike, and then go ride a Pedelec for 2 hours, and I have to work half as hard for the climbs as I do on my pedal only bike.... how am I burning more calories?

    Lets look at it this way, if I go walk for a hour I will hit a lower max heart rate during that hour than if I run for an hour. Giving someone a motor does not make the rider work harder, it allows them to put in less effort.

    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    The study you are looking for is out there. It was posted on this site some time ago. A bike mag sent a guy out on a time constrained ride using a pedal bike and then an e-bike with the goal being max miles. Of course the e-bike went further but they were shocked that rider output and average heart rate were actually higher on the e-bike. I saw at least one other mag repeat this but it's been so long I forget the who. Yes, you will find pro e-bike rags touting the opposite. The difference is those are typically not full out time trial efforts.
    Please link the study.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_bo View Post
    Wow. You just won't stop. You cherry picked your data points, unreasonably constrained the equation,, and came to a biased conclusion that fits your agenda. By your methodology, I could literally prove any point I wanted to be true.
    You certainly have been trying to do that since you joined the site. I did not cherry pick anything. I related a personal example, nothing more. I never claimed my personal example was fact for anyone else, but I do think it is pretty average.

    All this is making me want to demo an eBike so bad and start doing some science... lol.
    Ride Bikes, Drink Craft Beer, Repeat.

    Know these before you post:
    MTBR Posting Guidelines

  94. #294
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Posts
    3,110
    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    Please clarify this for me. If I go ride for a specific amount of time(in my personal example i gave 2 hours) on a pedal bike, and then go ride a Pedelec for 2 hours, and I have to work half as hard for the climbs as I do on my pedal only bike.... how am I burning more calories?
    Because it's a personal choice of how hard you work. Because it's pretty well known that e-bikes cause a flatter heart rate curve, less peaks and valleys, so the average is not going to be too far off. 80% exertion is still 80% exertion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post

    Please link the study.
    You can find it just as easily as I can.

    Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

  95. #295
    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ SuperModerator
    Reputation: Klurejr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    7,380
    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    Because it's a personal choice of how hard you work. Because it's pretty well known that e-bikes cause a flatter heart rate curve, less peaks and valleys, so the average is not going to be too far off. 80% exertion is still 80% exertion.
    So, you are saying eBike riders will always choose to ride harder and get a better workout than guys riding a pedal bike.

    And I am saying that is not true.

    So I guess we can agree to disagree.
    Ride Bikes, Drink Craft Beer, Repeat.

    Know these before you post:
    MTBR Posting Guidelines

  96. #296
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Posts
    3,110
    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    So, you are saying eBike riders will always choose to ride harder and get a better workout than guys riding a pedal bike.

    And I am saying that is not true.

    So I guess we can agree to disagree.
    Please quote where I said that.

    I can quote where you made the spurious, absolute correlation between an e-bike and it being the easy way out.

    Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

  97. #297
    Cycologist
    Reputation: chazpat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    6,674
    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    So you believe that your personal level and method of exercise is the benchmark every other person should strive to match? And futher that it's impossible to output more calories than one takes using an e-bike?

    Don't buy any of it. I know plenty of overweight people that ride regular bikes.
    Don't believe that it's impossible for you to exercise more either.

    I'm still totally confused why some of you care so much about how and how much exercise complete strangers may or may not be getting compared to yourselves.
    Weird, weird stuff.
    And where did I say that? What I did say, or at least tried to say, is that I think trends that move the citizens of the US towards less exercise is a bad thing, especially considering the growing obesity problem. And I think that in general, ebikes could contribute to this trend if they explode and take over like some posters here have claimed will happen. Is it wrong to care about other people's health in general? Sorry.
    This post is a natural product. Variances in spelling & grammar should be appreciated as part of its character & beauty.

  98. #298
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    2,827
    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    And where did I say that? What I did say, or at least tried to say, is that I think trends that move the citizens of the US towards less exercise is a bad thing, especially considering the growing obesity problem. And I think that in general, ebikes could contribute to this trend if they explode and take over like some posters here have claimed will happen. Is it wrong to care about other people's health in general? Sorry.
    You seem to subscribe to a common fallacy here - riding an ebike doesn't necessarily mean someone is getting "less exercise". Maybe they do two five mile laps instead of one, or maybe they are in the same HR zone they would be in on a regular MTB. I know I have been surprised by how hard I go on my eMTB vs. my MTB, and my perceived effort is very similar, I just don't get off the bike and push as much up some of the super steep/rocky stuff I encounter. One of the things that gets me to choose the eMTB over the MTB is that I have a couple of loops that are 1:20-1:30 on the MTB and right around an hour on the eBike. If I only have time for a one hour ride, I'd much rather do a loop on the eMTB than an out and back on the MTB on these trails. The amount of time it takes on the eMTB is much more consistent as well. On the MTB, if I feel like crap the loop will be 1:30 and if I feel great it will be 1:20. On the eMTB, even in full on turbo mode I can only go 8-10 MPH on some of these long climbs. The speed will be 8-10 whether I am at 50% or 80% of effort. On the MTB the same climb will be 4-5 MPH at 80% effort, and I am walking at 50% effort. Huge advantage to be able maintain 50%-80% with the eMTB on the climb and not have to walk when I come to the 30 meter long babyhead strewn wall at 20% grade.

    One of the under-recognized aspects of riding a capable eMTB on steep gnarly trails is how much fun it is to ride up a nasty climb - "uphill flow" is a thing.

    This is a really well done video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7OG9c7N3B4

  99. #299
    mtbr member
    Reputation: J.B. Weld's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    14,143
    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post

    Please clarify this for me. If I go ride for a specific amount of time(in my personal example i gave 2 hours) on a pedal bike, and then go ride a Pedelec for 2 hours, and I have to work half as hard for the climbs as I do on my pedal only bike.... how am I burning more calories?
    But you don't necessarily have to work half as hard on the climbs on the ebike, you could work harder and go further, faster. On a 2 hour ebike hammerfest you might cover 3 or 4 times the distance that you would on a leisurely 2 hour bicycle ride. And burn more calories.
    I brake for stinkbugs

  100. #300
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Posts
    3,110
    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    But you don't necessarily have to work half as hard on the climbs on the ebike, you could work harder and go further, faster. On a 2 hour ebike hammerfest you might cover 3 or 4 times the distance that you would on a leisurely 2 hour bicycle ride. And burn more calories.
    That's what I've been trying to explain. His limitation is he wants to stay with his group. The disconnect is explaining not everyone has that issue.

    Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

  101. #301
    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ SuperModerator
    Reputation: Klurejr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    7,380
    Quote Originally Posted by honkinunit View Post
    This is a really well done video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7OG9c7N3B4
    Don't show that video to the typical Hateful old Hiker in this country.....

    Keeping on the topic of fitness in this thread I noticed 2 interesting points they made:
    Ebikes are getting people fit. Good article.-massive-thrust-forward-ebike.jpg

    Ebikes are getting people fit. Good article.-big-gear-turbo-ebike.jpg

    So even the Pro-eBike videos explain how a motor does more of the work for the rider and thus the rider does not have to exert as much energy as they would on a pedal only bike.

    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
    Ride Bikes, Drink Craft Beer, Repeat.

    Know these before you post:
    MTBR Posting Guidelines

  102. #302
    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ SuperModerator
    Reputation: Klurejr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    7,380
    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    But you don't necessarily have to work half as hard on the climbs on the ebike, you could work harder and go further, faster. On a 2 hour ebike hammerfest you might cover 3 or 4 times the distance that you would on a leisurely 2 hour bicycle ride. And burn more calories.
    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    That's what I've been trying to explain. His limitation is he wants to stay with his group. The disconnect is explaining not everyone has that issue.
    I fully understand that not everyone has that issue, As mentioned before i was giving a personal example and I know many have the same desires to ride with friends. But there is no reason someone NEEDS an eBike to get in shape and no substance to the idea that an eBike is a better way to get or keep in shape than a pedal only bike when it comes to MTB riding.

    All an ebike does is make the climbs easier and faster.


    On a different note I think eBikes for commuters are for sure a better way to get people in shape over a pedal bike and here is my reasoning, once again I will use my own personal example.

    For many people commuting by bicycle is a hard proposition due to the amount of time it takes and that one might arrive at work sweaty.

    With an eBike the commute time can be greatly reduced and with less effort needed to travel the same distance at a faster rate of speed you can get to work without being as sweaty.

    On top of that, you are getting some exercise in comparison to sitting in a car.

    I work 36 miles from home. There are a number of hills between my home and my work, not to mention many stop lights. San Diego is in the process of building a commuter bike path to run down the coast that would avoid all the stop lights for a solid 20 miles. That means on a commuter eBike I could go 30mph with a class 3 pedlec and get to work in about an hour. On my pedal bike I could probably do it in 2 hours. Once that commuter path is built I am seriously considering getting a eBike commuter just for that purpose. Right now I do not find it feasible to ride my pedal bike to work and back, I just don't have the time for it, and I don't want to have to shower when I get to work. But with an eBike for commuting that changes and I would get in better shape just be riding to and from work each day.
    Ride Bikes, Drink Craft Beer, Repeat.

    Know these before you post:
    MTBR Posting Guidelines

  103. #303
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Posts
    3,110
    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    But there is no reason someone NEEDS an eBike to get in shape and no substance to the idea that an eBike is a better way to get or keep in shape than a pedal only bike when it comes to MTB riding.
    If we are talking about actual needs a mountain bike isn't a need. It's a luxury item. No substance, that's laughable. There is plenty of anecdotal evidence where e-bikes have helped people get out and be active that would not have been, even in this thread. Heck, I rode an enduro with a disabled vet that had maybe a quarter lung capacity. The only way he did that was his e-bike, no substance theory busted and that is just one instance.

    Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

  104. #304
    poser Administrator
    Reputation: rockcrusher's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Posts
    10,184
    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    But you don't necessarily have to work half as hard on the climbs on the ebike, you could work harder and go further, faster. On a 2 hour ebike hammerfest you might cover 3 or 4 times the distance that you would on a leisurely 2 hour bicycle ride. And burn more calories.
    This math doesn't necessarily parse out. If anyone spend 2hrs at the same intensity then they will burn the same calories (If they were twins and had the same BMI, etc). If you go out on your ebike and ride for 2 hours at 80% you will burn as much as I will on a bike at 80% relatively. Comparing a leisurely ride vs a hard ride is not a comparison, it just shows that someone that isn't working as hard as someone else is getting less of a work out.

    The problem I see is that to get the same workout you may travel twice as far which means you are traveling twice as fast as I am, for example. If I average 80% intensity over 2hrs, to muster the same a comparable e-bike rider would need to ride whatever percentage faster then I need to ride to maintain the 80% intensity. If the bike is removing 20% of your effort then presumably you need to travel at 20% faster speeds to get the same workout in the same time frame.

    So if a new rider gets on a bike and rides for 2hrs at what feels like a hard pace, then gets on an e-bike and rides at what seems like the same pace, they will travel farther because they are traveling faster. You can't have one without the other. This is the crux of the argument that e-bikes aren't faster but you get the same workout. Either they are faster or you don't get the same work out, can't be both. Unless the battery dies halfway and you have to ride back under leg power only, then I bet it more than makes up for it.
    MTBR Posting Guidelines
    calories>electrons

  105. #305
    mtbr member
    Reputation: J.B. Weld's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    14,143
    Quote Originally Posted by rockcrusher View Post
    This math doesn't necessarily parse out. If anyone spend 2hrs at the same intensity then they will burn the same calories (If they were twins and had the same BMI, etc).
    Yes but that's not what I meant, I'm talking different intensities. 2 riders go on a 2 hour ride, one pedals his ass off and the other goes at just above walking pace, who gets a better workout? It could be the one on the ebike or the one on the bicycle.

    All I was saying is that someone on an ebike could potentially get a better workout than someone else on a bicycle.
    I brake for stinkbugs

  106. #306
    Not a role model
    Reputation: ninjichor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2018
    Posts
    1,311
    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Yes but that's not what I meant, I'm talking different intensities. 2 riders go on a 2 hour ride, one pedals his ass off and the other goes at just above walking pace, who gets a better workout? It could be the one on the ebike or the one on the bicycle.

    All I was saying is that someone on an ebike could potentially get a better workout than someone else on a bicycle.
    This is kind of counter-intuitive, but I think I see what you mean when looking from an ebike rider's perspective. Someone on a normal bike tends to pace themselves, since they need reserves, for safety's sake and as preparation for an impromptu route. Someone on an ebike might go all out, since they have tunable levels of assist to allow them to cope with the "show-up-to-blow-up" symptoms of going hard from the start and "dying" until they get their second wind.

    If they go all out and feel terrible the next day, the ebike will be more inviting to ride anyways as active recovery, perhaps with buddies, rather than just taking a day off without doing anything.

    Climbing up something at high intensity for 4 minutes rather than 2 minutes, due to having the motor turned off and just cranking up the 50 lbs nets you more climbing time, than someone on a weight weenie hardtail. You gotta measure by time at intensity, rather than by miles/ft. At the same time, you could make the climb take less than 1 minute at high intensity, with max motor assist, just for the thrill of climbing that fast. You'd likely have to be going all out to cut time that much--maybe a better workout if your all-out 1 minute was truly all-out and the rider on the weight weenie bike was only giving 85-90%, since they had budgeted 2 hours to ride and didn't want to be "dying".

    Sounds kind of versatile to be offering a range of different riding experiences. Reminds me of the times I rode with a slower buddy, and among the bikes I could choose from I had to choose one that "gimped" me most. Could the ebike be best choice, choosing to ride without the assist?

  107. #307
    mtbr member
    Reputation: J.B. Weld's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    14,143
    Quote Originally Posted by ninjichor View Post
    This is kind of counter-intuitive, but I think I see what you mean when looking from an ebike rider's perspective. Someone on a normal bike tends to pace themselves, since they need reserves, for safety's sake and as preparation for an impromptu route. Someone on an ebike might go all out, since they have tunable levels of assist to allow them to cope with the "show-up-to-blow-up" symptoms of going hard from the start and "dying" until they get their second wind.

    If they go all out and feel terrible the next day, the ebike will be more inviting to ride anyways as active recovery, perhaps with buddies, rather than just taking a day off without doing anything.


    Clearly I'm a poor communicator because that's not what I mean at all.


    I don't think ebikes give better workouts.
    I don't think mtb's give better workouts.
    I don't think road bikes give better workouts.
    I don't think dragging an anchor gives better workouts.

    The amount of work is determined by how much pressure the rider applies to the pedal.
    I brake for stinkbugs

  108. #308
    Cycologist
    Reputation: chazpat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    6,674
    Quote Originally Posted by honkinunit View Post
    You seem to subscribe to a common fallacy here - riding an ebike doesn't necessarily mean someone is getting "less exercise". Maybe they do two five mile laps instead of one, or maybe they are in the same HR zone they would be in on a regular MTB. I know I have been surprised by how hard I go on my eMTB vs. my MTB, and my perceived effort is very similar, I just don't get off the bike and push as much up some of the super steep/rocky stuff I encounter. One of the things that gets me to choose the eMTB over the MTB is that I have a couple of loops that are 1:20-1:30 on the MTB and right around an hour on the eBike. If I only have time for a one hour ride, I'd much rather do a loop on the eMTB than an out and back on the MTB on these trails. The amount of time it takes on the eMTB is much more consistent as well. On the MTB, if I feel like crap the loop will be 1:30 and if I feel great it will be 1:20. On the eMTB, even in full on turbo mode I can only go 8-10 MPH on some of these long climbs. The speed will be 8-10 whether I am at 50% or 80% of effort. On the MTB the same climb will be 4-5 MPH at 80% effort, and I am walking at 50% effort. Huge advantage to be able maintain 50%-80% with the eMTB on the climb and not have to walk when I come to the 30 meter long babyhead strewn wall at 20% grade.

    One of the under-recognized aspects of riding a capable eMTB on steep gnarly trails is how much fun it is to ride up a nasty climb - "uphill flow" is a thing.

    This is a really well done video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7OG9c7N3B4

    Granted, a study of one but…

    Quote Originally Posted by Moe Ped View Post

    Speaking of e-bikes; they're great for hauling trail work tools but they're detrimental to maintaining cardio conditioning IMHO. I gained 10 # when I started riding e-bikes about 50% of the time.
    And yes, I do realize that would not be the case for everyone
    This post is a natural product. Variances in spelling & grammar should be appreciated as part of its character & beauty.

  109. #309
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    4,582
    I find the EBike threads and Global Warming threads to be identical.

    Overall, I am 100% behind/open to ebikes, so long as they don't limit access for pedal bikes. Basic principles of minimizing harm to others.

    But like anything so polarizing, the clains get embellished or exaggerated.

    EBike can be a life changing option for a small segment of population, and the thread about the wife riding was inspiring, at least to me. Overall, it looks like a fun option, just don't spoil someone else's party.

    On a side not, anything battery powered is going to get special treatment by policy makers, and that will eventually filter down to ebikes. In this sense, the eventuality aspect is closer to reality. It may have more impact v. NOMT opposition.

    Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk

  110. #310
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    4,582
    I will add that I have piached a many a public trail, and have helped build unauthorized trails on public land, and they are still ridden today. I am no trail angel by any means, but never risked access for authorized trails.

    Now I am pretty much a choir boy.

    Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk

  111. #311
    Not a role model
    Reputation: ninjichor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2018
    Posts
    1,311
    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Clearly I'm a poor communicator because that's not what I mean at all.


    I don't think ebikes give better workouts.
    I don't think mtb's give better workouts.
    I don't think road bikes give better workouts.
    I don't think dragging an anchor gives better workouts.

    The amount of work is determined by how much pressure the rider applies to the pedal.
    Huh, so it's not the intensity over time that matters, but pressure applied to the pedal? So fat/obese people and track cyclists get better workouts than cyclists who weigh less and have smaller leg muscles?

  112. #312
    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ SuperModerator
    Reputation: Klurejr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    7,380
    Quote Originally Posted by rockcrusher View Post
    This is the crux of the argument that e-bikes aren't faster but you get the same workout. Either they are faster or you don't get the same work out, can't be both.
    Ride Bikes, Drink Craft Beer, Repeat.

    Know these before you post:
    MTBR Posting Guidelines

  113. #313
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    8,827
    Of course the entire point of the thread wasn't 'e-bikes give you more exercise than mountain bikes' in the firt place, now was it?

    It was simply that some people are using e-bikes to get fitter than they are.

    Lots of people missing the point completely it seems to me.
    Sinister Bikes
    Wraith Bicycles
    Sunday River Mtn Bike Park
    NEMBA
    Wachusett Brewing Co.

  114. #314
    XC iconoclast
    Reputation: richj8990's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Posts
    2,001
    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    If you missed the point in the first place you won't understand it a second time around.
    No use explaining something to a person that thinks a singlespeed can climb a steep mountain.

  115. #315
    Location: 10 ft from Hell Moderator
    Reputation: life behind bars's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    4,451
    Quote Originally Posted by richj8990 View Post
    No use explaining something to a person that thinks a singlespeed can climb a steep mountain.



    Just because you can't does not in any way mean that he couldn't. Have a warm cup of stfu and go away.
    I ncredibly
    M yopic
    B ackstabbing
    A ssholes

  116. #316
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Mr Pig's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    11,033
    I was at Glentress today and saw two things I found interesting.

    I only noticed one eBike today. A young, fit-looking guy sped up the switch-back climb behind me. At first I thought he was just extremely fit but then I picked up the sound of the motor. After he passed me he rounded the corner and pulled a wheelie, flying up-hill on a gravel trail.

    Later in the day I helped another young guy put some more air in his front tyre. He was in his early twenties I would say. His left forearm was missing and his useless-looking left hand was at a right-angle to his elbow. He clearly had general issues with the left side of his body and face but he had an elaborate cradle attachment on his left bar which he strapped his left hand into. I asked him what happened when he crashed and he showed me the cable which ran from the cradle to a strap round his right wrist which was supposed to detached the cradle in a crash. He said it didn't work but it's wasn't too bad as long as he avoided jumps because his odd posture unbalanced the bike.

    He was not on an eBike, he was kicking the trails on a regular enduo bike and I came away with tremendous respect for his tenacity. Meanwhile, there are perfectly healthy people who feel that their life is just not fun enough without electrical assistance and who are wondering why the rest of us are lukewarm about their pathetic apologetics.

  117. #317
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    8,827
    Nobody is apologizing to you. Why in the world would you think that they give a damn what you think? Full of yourself much?
    Sinister Bikes
    Wraith Bicycles
    Sunday River Mtn Bike Park
    NEMBA
    Wachusett Brewing Co.

  118. #318
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    8,827
    Quote Originally Posted by richj8990 View Post
    No use explaining something to a person that thinks a singlespeed can't climb a steep mountain.
    fify

    Clueless as usual.

    Ebikes are getting people fit. Good article.-fat.jpg
    Sinister Bikes
    Wraith Bicycles
    Sunday River Mtn Bike Park
    NEMBA
    Wachusett Brewing Co.

  119. #319
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    355
    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    The study you are looking for is out there. It was posted on this site some time ago. A bike mag sent a guy out on a time constrained ride using a pedal bike and then an e-bike with the goal being max miles. Of course the e-bike went further but they were shocked that rider output and average heart rate were actually higher on the e-bike. I saw at least one other mag repeat this but it's been so long I forget the who. Yes, you will find pro e-bike rags touting the opposite. The difference is those are typically not full out time trial efforts.

    Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
    When I first read this I thought it was totally nuts but after thinking about it, I realized that whenever I go to higher assist to cover more miles, I have to slow down because I am winded. Why? cuz I pedal hard when I go faster. I consciously know the e bike will provide the watts and I can pedal like I was at a normal easy pace but my subconscious thinks that to go that fast I need to be pushing hard on the pedals. Now I know I don't have to push hard on the pedals but I do it every time and swear the next time I won't because, I am on a e bike.

  120. #320
    Not a role model
    Reputation: ninjichor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2018
    Posts
    1,311
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    I was at Glentress today and saw two things I found interesting.

    I only noticed one eBike today. A young, fit-looking guy sped up the switch-back climb behind me. At first I thought he was just extremely fit but then I picked up the sound of the motor. After he passed me he rounded the corner and pulled a wheelie, flying up-hill on a gravel trail.

    Later in the day I helped another young guy put some more air in his front tyre. He was in his early twenties I would say. His left forearm was missing and his useless-looking left hand was at a right-angle to his elbow. He clearly had general issues with the left side of his body and face but he had an elaborate cradle attachment on his left bar which he strapped his left hand into. I asked him what happened when he crashed and he showed me the cable which ran from the cradle to a strap round his right wrist which was supposed to detached the cradle in a crash. He said it didn't work but it's wasn't too bad as long as he avoided jumps because his odd posture unbalanced the bike.

    He was not on an eBike, he was kicking the trails on a regular enduo bike and I came away with tremendous respect for his tenacity. Meanwhile, there are perfectly healthy people who feel that their life is just not fun enough without electrical assistance and who are wondering why the rest of us are lukewarm about their pathetic apologetics.
    Why so judgmental?

    Fundamentally, a mtn bike is a tool. If the tool has no professional use to you nor your livelihood or survival, it's like a toy. Are you the type to judge others based on what toys they play with or how they play? Guys shouldn't play with dolls or any other things that make them less manly?

    Tools are made to ergonomically match the user, in order to efficiently use their muscle groups for control. Technology trickles down to make them power assisted to speed up the completion of a task. How many powered things do you have that you take for granted?

    Your fridge - you can be more fit if you fetched ice, on a regular basis, for a box to keep its contents cool.
    Your car - you can be more fit if you ran for transportation purposes.
    You can be more fit if your posts were hand written, hand carried by yourself, delivered to all you wanted to read it, rather than sent electronically.

    How about you making your house and clothes by hand? Make your food all by hand, growing your veggies and what not? Secure a clean water supply by hand, perhaps filtering a more local source? I suppose necessities can be an exception, as everyone needs security from hunger and thirst, else you get conflict like riots...

    Heck, in an extreme example, you can get fitter lungs if you filled your tires with your lungs/mouth directly.

    How many are going to respect you, being perfectly healthy, doing such tasks when there's easier options? If you were missing an arm and I created a tool specifically to assist you in pumping up your tires manually, by taking a tube with a bulb on one end, that just required squeezing... if you pumped it with your teeth, or your armpit, rather than something more ergonomically fitting, is your act of using such a tool in that manner respectable? Maybe because you didn't throw that shitty tool away and made use of a foot pump or power-assisted one?

    You sound like you could be into "primitive living" if you this stuff agreeable. Do you find the people who actually document this kind of lifestyle on youtube respectable? If you accept all your non-essential powered conveniences, you are being hypocritical, when you judge ebikes (class 1 pedelecs in the scope of this thread).

    Your standards for respect are questionable. I'd respect the "missing forearm" guy for creating a solution to a problem, such as his unique one. Using him as contrast to a young fit-looking guy using a pedelec to get up a hill, sharpening your senses enough to listen for the hum of a motor, as part of your reasoning to be judgmental is something that made me lose respect for you. Why do they even need to apologize? That they didn't seek validation/acceptance from you? Who do you think you are, to pass judgement and see posts here as being a pathetic apologies? Someone holding a special position of privilege that you somehow earned? Do you like to prematurely judge people and then blame others things when your judgement is off, such as how you judged the guy coming up behind you to be "extremely fit" until you saw evidence of motor-assist? Is that all it takes to upset you and create a disturbing experience worthy of memory?

    What's keeping you from respecting things around you a bit more? Do you not respect yourself?

  121. #321
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    355
    Quote Originally Posted by cjsb View Post
    I find the EBike threads and Global Warming threads to be identical.

    Overall, I am 100% behind/open to ebikes, so long as they don't limit access for pedal bikes. Basic principles of minimizing harm to others.

    But like anything so polarizing, the clains get embellished or exaggerated.
    I think that you will find that any thread about fitness and how to gain fitness will be similarly contentious even without the e bikes thrown in. E bikes are just a fun ars tool.

    When it comes to fitness, climate change and mtbs, the first liar doesn't stand a chance.

  122. #322
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    355
    Quote Originally Posted by ninjichor View Post
    This is kind of counter-intuitive, but I think I see what you mean when looking from an ebike rider's perspective. Someone on a normal bike tends to pace themselves, since they need reserves, for safety's sake and as preparation for an impromptu route. Someone on an ebike might go all out, since they have tunable levels of assist to allow them to cope with the "show-up-to-blow-up" symptoms of going hard from the start and "dying" until they get their second wind.

    If they go all out and feel terrible the next day, the ebike will be more inviting to ride anyways as active recovery, perhaps with buddies, rather than just taking a day off without doing anything.

    Climbing up something at high intensity for 4 minutes rather than 2 minutes, due to having the motor turned off and just cranking up the 50 lbs nets you more climbing time, than someone on a weight weenie hardtail. You gotta measure by time at intensity, rather than by miles/ft. At the same time, you could make the climb take less than 1 minute at high intensity, with max motor assist, just for the thrill of climbing that fast. You'd likely have to be going all out to cut time that much--maybe a better workout if your all-out 1 minute was truly all-out and the rider on the weight weenie bike was only giving 85-90%, since they had budgeted 2 hours to ride and didn't want to be "dying".

    Sounds kind of versatile to be offering a range of different riding experiences. Reminds me of the times I rode with a slower buddy, and among the bikes I could choose from I had to choose one that "gimped" me most. Could the ebike be best choice, choosing to ride without the assist?
    Wow, I haven't looked at a e bike that way cuz for me its been the opposite when biking off road. This way of viewing an e bike is interesting. I went to an e fat bike to have enough power to ride off road snow trails and loose sand. For me the transition was opposite of what you write and what I expected.

    One problem I had with a regular mtb is one of self regulation. The need for momentum on the mtb gets me so wound up and so into it that my heartrate nears Vo Max a good share of the ride. I would get slammed and would not even see it coming. Twice landed me in ER, once with kidney failure.

    With the e bike I don't self hype and end up riding slower. I don't feel the need for momentum and don't get so wrapped up in strategy. I am a superb alpine skier and don't have a healthy fear of downhill sections with trees. Once self hyped, the vertical earned, I was damned well not going to waste vertical on brake friction. My mind would shift into alpine skiing and I would really put the bike over and in the process, forgetting that you cannot clear a tree by simply moving your hand inward that is on the inside of the turn. As a result of not getting so hyped, I don't get ripped violently off the bike anymore when the grips nick the tree.

    In short the e bike has the effect of making me ride much more sensible. I don't feel the need to get a run at climbs or maintain as much momentum so I find myself creeping up at slow steady. I find that a lot of fun. That also extends to MUT. I will slow way down for pedestrians and obey all traffic laws. Why? getting back up to speed is way fun, E bikes have amazing acceleration and a slowdown is an excuse to feel that acceleration. I will set the power to a high assist level long enough to get back up to my speed. Normally around 15 mph.
    Getting better fitness through riding considerably longer was a surprise benefit I did not foresee.

  123. #323
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    355
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    Meanwhile, there are perfectly healthy people who feel that their life is just not fun enough without electrical assistance and who are wondering why the rest of us are lukewarm about their pathetic apologetics.
    Ehhhh, I could resemble that remark. Life is short and the more fun I have the better. At first I use to feel like I was cheating and sought pathetic reassurances but I ended up healthier with the e bike than without. (Your experience may vary). No one has to feel sorry for me, I now don't feel one bit cheated.

  124. #324
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Mr Pig's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    11,033
    Quote Originally Posted by ninjichor View Post
    Fundamentally, a mtn bike is a tool. If the tool has no professional use to you nor your livelihood or survival, it's like a toy. Are you the type to judge others based on what toys they play with or how they play?
    Yes.

    My respect for this young man stemmed from the fact that he was not taking the easy way out by choosing to either not ride a mountain bike at all or use an Ebike. He is putting considerable effort into rising to the challenge of mountain biking on the same terms as everyone else. Not without additional risk I might add. How comfortable would you be about riding rough trails with one hand strapped to the bars?!

    Most eBike riders are the antithesis if this. They want the more pleasurable aspects of mountain biking but at less physical cost to them.

    Do I make judgments on other people's choices? Absolutely. It tells me something about the sort of person they are. I believe it is right to respect other's humanity but not necessarily every choice or action they make. That's a stupid suggestion. If you want my respect you have to earn it. You can't just demand it.

  125. #325
    SS Pusher Man
    Reputation: mtnbikej's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Posts
    7,560
    Quote Originally Posted by richj8990 View Post
    No use explaining something to a person that thinks a singlespeed can climb a steep mountain.
    Then apparently I have been riding bikes the wrong way for the last 8 years.
    Bicycles don’t have motors or batteries.:nono:

    Ebikes are not bicycles :nono:

  126. #326
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    8,827
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    . If you want my respect you have to earn it.
    Once again, why should anyone care whether or not they have your respect?
    What is so special about you that you think you are in a position where people should go around worrying whether Mr Pig approves of what they're doing?

    Newsflash - no one is out there trying to impress you.
    Sinister Bikes
    Wraith Bicycles
    Sunday River Mtn Bike Park
    NEMBA
    Wachusett Brewing Co.

  127. #327
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    102
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    Yes.
    Do I make judgments on other people's choices? Absolutely. It tells me something about the sort of person they are.
    And that tells me everything I need to know about the sort of person you are.

  128. #328
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Mr Pig's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    11,033
    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    Once again, why should anyone care whether or not they have your respect?
    I'm not the one who brought the topic up. I'm not the one who is twisting and turning all over the place trying to justify my choice of a powered bicycle.

    It's very clear that eBikers do badly want the respect of the wider mountain bike community, and I have to say that at the moment, they are not doing a very good job of getting it.

  129. #329
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    8,827
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    I'm not the one who brought the topic up. I'm not the one who is twisting and turning all over the place trying to justify my choice of a powered bicycle.
    No one is doing that.
    You've suffering from delusions of grandeur.
    Sinister Bikes
    Wraith Bicycles
    Sunday River Mtn Bike Park
    NEMBA
    Wachusett Brewing Co.

  130. #330
    Cycologist
    Reputation: chazpat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    6,674
    This post is a natural product. Variances in spelling & grammar should be appreciated as part of its character & beauty.

  131. #331
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Mr Pig's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    11,033
    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    You've suffering from delusions of grandeur.
    Whatever.

  132. #332
    10,000,000 Watts
    Reputation: Gutch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    2,763
    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    Once again, why should anyone care whether or not they have your respect?
    Newsflash - no one is out there trying to impress you.
    You want to earn my respect you need to go ride with me, I don’t care what and must be able to eat and drink afterwards! Anything less and you are way to serious for me to ride a bicycle with. It’s only entertainment after all.
    Mountain Bikers Do It Til They Bonk!

  133. #333
    10,000,000 Watts
    Reputation: Gutch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    2,763
    Oh, almost forgot. Thanks Lynx for the neg rep.
    Mountain Bikers Do It Til They Bonk!

  134. #334
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Posts
    9



    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

  135. #335
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    8,827
    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    Oh, almost forgot. Thanks Lynx for the neg rep.
    Lame, as always.
    Sinister Bikes
    Wraith Bicycles
    Sunday River Mtn Bike Park
    NEMBA
    Wachusett Brewing Co.

  136. #336
    banned
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    552
    While this thread has become monumentally stupid... it does serve a good purpose. It clearly shows who is open minded and rational with respect to eBikes, and who is so biased that they are just grasping at straws trying to find anything they can to demonize eBikes.

  137. #337
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Mr Pig's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    11,033
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_bo View Post
    While this thread has become monumentally stupid...
    You should've stopped the sentance right there.

  138. #338
    10,000,000 Watts
    Reputation: Gutch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    2,763
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_bo View Post
    While this thread has become monumentally stupid... it does serve a good purpose. It clearly shows who is open minded and rational with respect to eBikes, and who is so biased that they are just grasping at straws trying to find anything they can to demonize eBikes.
    You are correct.
    Mountain Bikers Do It Til They Bonk!

  139. #339
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Posts
    3,110
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    You should've stopped the sentance right there.
    If the shoe fits...

    Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

  140. #340
    XC iconoclast
    Reputation: richj8990's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Posts
    2,001
    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    If the shoe fits...

    Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
    lol

  141. #341
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Mr Pig's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    11,033
    Every eBike thread ends up the same quagmire. And every one ends up with the eBike fanatics blaming everyone else. Really guys, it's getting old.

  142. #342
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    8,827
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    Every eBike thread ends up the same quagmire. And every one ends up with the eBike fanatics blaming everyone else. Really guys, it's getting old.
    Nobody is blaming anybody for anything, where in the world are you getting this stuff?

    And I'm an 'e-bike fanatic' now?

    You have completely lost touch with reality; should probably avoid e-bike discussions from here on in. They obviously bring out the worst in you.
    Sinister Bikes
    Wraith Bicycles
    Sunday River Mtn Bike Park
    NEMBA
    Wachusett Brewing Co.

  143. #343
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Mr Pig's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    11,033
    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    Nobody is blaming anybody for anything, where in the world are you getting this stuff?
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_bo View Post
    ..It clearly shows who is open minded and rational with respect to eBikes, and who is so biased that they are just grasping at straws trying to find anything they can to demonize eBikes.
    eBike advocates = open-minded, rational.
    eBike detractors = biased, demonizers.

    Or in my case, 'loosing touch with reality'.

    But thank you for stating clearly what you want, for anyone who does not support eBikes to stay out of the discussion. Also a recurring theme.

  144. #344
    Not a role model
    Reputation: ninjichor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2018
    Posts
    1,311
    *shrug* it's the extremists sharing exaggerated/delusional opinions to promote their belief leaning to one side over the other. The ones sitting in between are the decent ones, at least until they get influenced to a side. I'm hoping that I am retaining my neutral stance. I just see it as a tech improvement. I'm looking to further improve my "car-less", but not car-free, lifestyle. Got jury duty, and admittedly took a car last time. Gonna take my bike and see how it goes... thinking an ebike would make it more pleasant, as the challenges a bike presents in this scenario are not of the "fun" variety, like mtn biking is. *thinks of all the potential security tech on it too*

  145. #345
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    8,827
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    eBike advocates = open-minded, rational.
    eBike detractors = biased, demonizers.

    Or in my case, 'loosing touch with reality'.

    But thank you for stating clearly what you want, for anyone who does not support eBikes to stay out of the discussion. Also a recurring theme.
    Discussion had nothing to do with supporting e-bikes at all, it was about the fact that certain people were seeing fitness benefits from them. Period. Don't know where it turned in to you thinking people are begging for your approval or respect, but that is a pretty f'ed up tangent you lost yourself on.

    I'm no e-bike advocate, nor am I an e-bike detractor, they are just toys, same as MTBs. Unlike yourself, I don't go making ridiculous personal judgments of people simply because they play with different toys than I do, or think my choice of toy or physical condition somehow makes me superior to other people.
    Sinister Bikes
    Wraith Bicycles
    Sunday River Mtn Bike Park
    NEMBA
    Wachusett Brewing Co.

  146. #346
    mtbr member
    Reputation: J.B. Weld's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    14,143
    It's neat how open minded, non-judgmental people are completely open minded and non-judgmental about things they agree with.
    I brake for stinkbugs

  147. #347
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    1,322
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_bo View Post
    While this thread has become monumentally stupid... it does serve a good purpose. It clearly shows who is open minded and rational with respect to eBikes, and who is so biased that they are just grasping at straws trying to find anything they can to legitimize eBikes.
    See what I did there.

    Disparaging others is really easy when you just cut to name calling.

    Ride on....

  148. #348
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Mr Pig's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    11,033
    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    Discussion had nothing to do with supporting e-bikes at all..
    I think it did.

  149. #349
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Posts
    3,110
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    I think it did.
    You thought wrong.

    Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

  150. #350
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Mr Pig's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    11,033
    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    You thought wrong.
    So that's a fact is it?

  151. #351
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Posts
    3,110
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    So that's a fact is it?
    Concerning the individual you quoted, yes.

    Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

  152. #352
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Mr Pig's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    11,033
    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    Concerning the individual you quoted, yes.
    I wasn't talking about an individual, the topic was the purpose of the thread. Which I maintain was to promote eBikes.

  153. #353
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Posts
    3,110
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    I wasn't talking about an individual, the topic was the purpose of the thread. Which I maintain was to promote eBikes.
    And like anyone you are entitled to your opinion. However, that does not mean your opinion is correct or even based in reality.

    Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

  154. #354
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    8,827
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    I wasn't talking about an individual, the topic was the purpose of the thread. Which I maintain was to promote eBikes.
    Luckily you changed it to promoting the idea that people should arrange their lives around your priorities and values rather than their own. Cause you're obviously superior.
    Sinister Bikes
    Wraith Bicycles
    Sunday River Mtn Bike Park
    NEMBA
    Wachusett Brewing Co.

  155. #355
    banned
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    552
    Quote Originally Posted by odtexas View Post
    See what I did there.

    Disparaging others is really easy when you just cut to name calling.

    Ride on....
    I don't care how obvious you think you have made it... willfully misquoting someone is wrong. You should delete your post.

  156. #356
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Posts
    30
    Not here to argue but I"ll contribute my story. I've dropped 25lbs and counting since buying the e bike. Climbs at altitude took the fun out of riding for me resulting in me driving to bike park, riding motocross instead, or hardly riding locally at all. The e bike allows me to do a 2 hour ride without any breaks enjoying every minute of the ride. At the end of the ride my legs are tired and muscles are sore all over but my heart rate never redlines.

    You could say I was too lazy to get in good enough shape on a normal bike and I suppose that would be accurate.

    Lots of ways to skin a cat. I chose a battery and motor to get me out the door.

  157. #357
    Cycologist
    Reputation: chazpat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    6,674
    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    Once again, why should anyone care whether or not they have your respect?
    What is so special about you that you think you are in a position where people should go around worrying whether Mr Pig approves of what they're doing?

    Newsflash - no one is out there trying to impress you.
    I'm not sure that is 100% accurate. It seems like there is a lot of desire for "stealth" in the ebike world. I think a lot of ebikers would prefer a hidden downtube motor over what is on the market now (at least if they were the same price).

    Why is that? Maybe those people do care about what others think? I'm not saying all ebikers, just seems like a lot have a desire for their ebike to be easily mistaken for a bicycle.
    This post is a natural product. Variances in spelling & grammar should be appreciated as part of its character & beauty.

  158. #358
    10,000,000 Watts
    Reputation: Gutch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    2,763
    Quote Originally Posted by comtn View Post
    Not here to argue but I"ll contribute my story. I've dropped 25lbs and counting since buying the e bike. Climbs at altitude took the fun out of riding for me resulting in me driving to bike park, riding motocross instead, or hardly riding locally at all. The e bike allows me to do a 2 hour ride without any breaks enjoying every minute of the ride. At the end of the ride my legs are tired and muscles are sore all over but my heart rate never redlines.

    You could say I was too lazy to get in good enough shape on a normal bike and I suppose that would be accurate.

    Lots of ways to skin a cat. I chose a battery and motor to get me out the door.
    Good post. I agree 100%. I don’t ride for fitness, one thing I’ll say is riding my emtb keeps your heart rate in the aerobic threshold and will loose weight. Anaerobic heartrate is great for cardio, but doesn’t shed as much. Glad you’re enjoying riding. Keep it up!
    Mountain Bikers Do It Til They Bonk!

  159. #359
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    8,827
    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    I'm not sure that is 100% accurate. It seems like there is a lot of desire for "stealth" in the ebike world. I think a lot of ebikers would prefer a hidden downtube motor over what is on the market now (at least if they were the same price).

    Why is that? Maybe those people do care about what others think? I'm not saying all ebikers, just seems like a lot have a desire for their ebike to be easily mistaken for a bicycle.
    I'd think it's more about access than trying to impress strangers.
    Sinister Bikes
    Wraith Bicycles
    Sunday River Mtn Bike Park
    NEMBA
    Wachusett Brewing Co.

  160. #360
    Not a role model
    Reputation: ninjichor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2018
    Posts
    1,311
    Anyone got a link to the original article?

  161. #361
    Moderator Moderator
    Reputation: Harryman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    2,858
    Quote Originally Posted by ninjichor View Post
    Anyone got a link to the original article?
    You mean the one in post #1?

  162. #362
    Life's a Garden, dig it!
    Reputation: chuckha62's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    3,959
    Quote Originally Posted by comtn View Post
    Not here to argue but I"ll contribute my story. I've dropped 25lbs and counting since buying the e bike. Climbs at altitude took the fun out of riding for me resulting in me driving to bike park, riding motocross instead, or hardly riding locally at all. The e bike allows me to do a 2 hour ride without any breaks enjoying every minute of the ride. At the end of the ride my legs are tired and muscles are sore all over but my heart rate never redlines.

    You could say I was too lazy to get in good enough shape on a normal bike and I suppose that would be accurate.

    Lots of ways to skin a cat. I chose a battery and motor to get me out the door.
    Good for you.

    I do agree that the eBike is a great way to get your fitness started and it is infinitely better than being a couch potato, no doubt. If that's the motivation that it takes, more power to you, seriously!

    Now, once your fitness starts to come around will you ditch the eBike to get to another level? Personally, I enjoy the challenge of a long climb on my SS (and yes, many of them are pretty steep) and would never consider additional assists, either in the way of a motor or gears.
    Will you shut up, man?!

  163. #363
    Not a role model
    Reputation: ninjichor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2018
    Posts
    1,311
    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post
    You mean the one in post #1?
    Yea, that original article. If you haven't tried clicking it recently, you may find that it doesn't work.

    I'm guessing the OP just copy pasted a redirect link that expires, and probably collects info about our visit/clicks.

    Direct article link: https://scienmag.com/riding-an-e-bik...er-four-weeks/

  164. #364
    10,000,000 Watts
    Reputation: Gutch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    2,763
    Yes I did.
    Mountain Bikers Do It Til They Bonk!

  165. #365
    banned
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    552
    Still this absurd debate rages where the two sides are rarely debating the same issue. I have yet to see a pro-eBiker claim that eBikes are bicycles. I have seen them discuss legal definitions and how local authorities regulate them as bicycles, but no one says they are bicycles. Yet the anti-eBike crowd continues to make the unopposed argument that eBikes aren't bicycles!! These anti-eBikers are simply arguing against the wind. They make arguments that eBikes are for the lazy, which is factually incorrect. They argue that eBikes threaten trail access where no such threat has been realized. And the list goes on....



    A few interesting things to point out about the inconsistency of anti-eBikers:

    -Bicycles originally started as rigid machines. Then bike suspension was developed that drastically increased speed capacity. Yet no one from this group argues that bikes don't have suspension or that full suspension bikes threaten trail access due to speeds.

    -Bicycles were originally single speeds. But then there was the advent of multiple geared bikes to assist in making climbing easier. Yet no one from this group rails about multi-geared bikes not providing a comparative workout and only being for the lazy.

    -There is a small, and likely to stay small, niche of off-road unicyclers. Yet no one from this group speaks of banning them from MTB trails because bicycles have 2 wheels.

    -The concept of shuttle rides, whether by chair lift or pickup truck, is expressly intended to relieve the difficulties of climbing. Yet no one from this group ridicules shuttlers as being lazy, fat, and not worthy of riding on "their" trails.



    The interesting thing about technology is that it refuses to be restrained by the compartmentalization of small minds. There are those who see only bicycles and motor vehicles. Yet technology shows us there are many iterations in between.

    It is a farce to claim that bicycles are human powered only. We all take advantage of other forms of energy than just bio-mechanical energy. We enjoy the push we get from wind energy when it is at our backs. We love the exploitation of potential energy as we bomb from a high elevation to a low elevation. We create scads of ways that allow us to take more advantage of the energies available to us (i.e. suspension, gearing, lightweight frames/components, low rolling resistance tires, etc.) Exploiting electric energy as an assist to bio-mechanical energy is effectively no different than using the potential energy of a hill to assist bio-mechanical energy. It is using an outside energy source to assist in propulsion of our vehicles.

    But there has to be a line. I don't disagree with that. However, I do disagree that the line is at the sophomoric observation that bicycles don't have motors. Class 1 and class 2 eBikes were designed and are best suited for the same trails as MTBs. No one can dispute that point. Therefore, that's where they should be. It would be as inappropriate to restrict a class 1 eBike to OHV trails as if it were a 500cc dirtbike as it would be to push MTBers onto such a trail system. But the anti-eBikers don't care about that. They only seem to care about what they like and they have no tolerance for anything else.


    Let's face it... almost every improvement of the MTB over the last 30 - 40 years has been created with the purpose of making MTBs faster and more efficient (read: easier to pedal). Yet our crowd of outraged purists are deafingly silent about this fact. But they rail about eBikes speeds and pedal assistance. So the obvious conclusion is that anti-eBikers hate that which they do not love. If your idea of off road cycling does not match with theirs, then they have no tolerance for people like you. They are zealously biased. They have no legitimate argument to make other than the fact that someone is doing things differently than themselves. We have seen anti-ebikers argue against the wind, blatantly cherry pick data to create nonsensical safety arguments, ignore the black letter of the law, create definitions that only serve their agenda, and make universal arguments based only on what they have seen once or twice on their local trails. This is a group fueled by vitriol and bitterness. They are without legitimate argument or credibility. And as anyone can see, ad hominems are their preferred tool in debating the issue.

    Conclusion: arguing against an anti-eBiker is like arguing with a drunk. You cannot have a rational discussion with irrational people.

  166. #366
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Mr Pig's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    11,033
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_bo View Post
    Conclusion: arguing against an anti-eBiker is like arguing with a drunk. You cannot have a rational discussion with irrational people.
    High-powered electric bikes should not share space with walkers and pedal cyclists. The disparity in speed is dangerous and the weight and torque of the machines can potentially damage certain trails.

    It is inevitable that some selfish people will either modify lower powered eBikes to exceed safe limits, or simply buy powerful bikes, and ride them in inappropriate places.

    Those charged with regulating and policing trails, parks and paths cannot be expected to differentiate between a low-powered eBike and modified or higher powered bikes at the side of the trail/road. As the technology improves, and eBikes get more stealthy, this task will only become harder.

    As it is necessary to keep powerful machines off of the routes in question, there is no option but to blanket ban all electric bikes from them.

    Rational enough for you? Just gona keep posting it. The difference between eBikes and other bicycle sub-sets is fundamental, not incremental as you imply. They are powered machines.

  167. #367
    mtbr member
    Reputation: J.B. Weld's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    14,143
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_bo View Post
    It is a farce to claim that bicycles are human powered only.

    IMHO it's a farce to claim otherwise, actually more of a ruse.


    Conclusion: A strong rider on 20th century technology (steel single speed) is faster than the vast majority of people on the trail no matter what tech they're on, motors excluded. Bicycles haven't gotten significantly faster.
    I brake for stinkbugs

  168. #368
    mtbr member
    Reputation: J.B. Weld's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    14,143
    I am very happy for anyone who is getting fit via ebike.
    I brake for stinkbugs

  169. #369
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    8,827
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_bo View Post
    -The concept of shuttle rides, whether by chair lift or pickup truck, is expressly intended to relieve the difficulties of climbing. Yet no one from this group ridicules shuttlers as being lazy, fat, and not worthy of riding on "their" trails.
    Actually, they do.
    You see people here all the time trying to re-write MTB history and act like shuttling and downhilling weren't part of the sport from day 1 and laboring under the impression that they're somehow more of a 'real' rider than anyone who enjoys banging out some lift or shuttle runs here and there.

    Just more 'purist' nonsense from people with limited experience and a pathetic need to try to make themselves feel superior to others.
    Sinister Bikes
    Wraith Bicycles
    Sunday River Mtn Bike Park
    NEMBA
    Wachusett Brewing Co.

  170. #370
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    8,827
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_bo View Post
    I have yet to see a pro-eBiker claim that eBikes are bicycles.
    ...

    Yet the anti-eBike crowd continues to make the unopposed argument that eBikes aren't bicycles!!
    Ummm...huh????


    So we all agree that e-bikes are NOT bicycles right?
    Sinister Bikes
    Wraith Bicycles
    Sunday River Mtn Bike Park
    NEMBA
    Wachusett Brewing Co.

  171. #371
    banned
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    552
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    High-powered electric bikes should not share space with walkers and pedal cyclists. The disparity in speed is dangerous and the weight and torque of the machines can potentially damage certain trails.

    It is inevitable that some selfish people will either modify lower powered eBikes to exceed safe limits, or simply buy powerful bikes, and ride them in inappropriate places.

    Those charged with regulating and policing trails, parks and paths cannot be expected to differentiate between a low-powered eBike and modified or higher powered bikes at the side of the trail/road. As the technology improves, and eBikes get more stealthy, this task will only become harder.

    As it is necessary to keep powerful machines off of the routes in question, there is no option but to blanket ban all electric bikes from them.

    Rational enough for you? Just gona keep posting it. The difference between eBikes and other bicycle sub-sets is fundamental, not incremental as you imply. They are powered machines.
    You're right... I forgot to include the "if it's difficult to enforce the rules, let's ban everything" argument. So, by your painfully simplistic and short-sighted perspective, we should ban semi-automatic rifles because we can't easily tell which ones were illegally converted to full automatic. We should ban all cars and trucks because we can't easily tell which ones have had their emission controls illegally bypassed. Even better, why don't we also ban people freely moving about as we cannot tell easily which person may commit a crime.

    Your argument is absurd and insulting to western values. However, it may be a very viable argument in countries like North Korea. Good luck with that.

  172. #372
    banned
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    552
    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    IMHO it's a farce to claim otherwise, actually more of a ruse.
    You really don't try to see anything other than what you want to see... do you? By your logic, once you stop pedaling, you are no longer on a bicycle. If you allow momentum to power your bike, or potential energy of a hill, then you are not powering the bike with human power alone. Therefore, according to you, the machine you are riding on transforms from being a bicycle, to not a bicycle repeatedly through a ride. How absurd. This is exactly the kind of drunk logic I was speaking about that one cannot have a rational conversation with.

  173. #373
    banned
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    552
    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    Actually, they do.
    You see people here all the time trying to re-write MTB history and act like shuttling and downhilling weren't part of the sport from day 1 and laboring under the impression that they're somehow more of a 'real' rider than anyone who enjoys banging out some lift or shuttle runs here and there.

    Just more 'purist' nonsense from people with limited experience and a pathetic need to try to make themselves feel superior to others.
    But none of these people are making an argument that shuttling should eliminate access to MTB trails.

  174. #374
    banned
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    552
    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    Ummm...huh????


    So we all agree that e-bikes are NOT bicycles right?
    I don't think you can get consensus on what the definition of "bicycle" is. You can get a legal definition from the Code of Federal Regulations, or you can get a legal definition from a local authority, or you can get a dictionary definition (of which there will be many), or you can just use what some zealot thinks the definition should be. As far as I am concerned, the definition is irrelevant. I believe the only relevant issue is what trails a vehicle should have access to. And I believe that a class 1 eBike should have access to the same trails that an MTB has access to.

  175. #375
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Mr Pig's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    11,033
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_bo View Post
    I don't think you can get consensus on what the definition of "bicycle" is.
    What?? It's been the same for a hundred years. The only people trying to change it are eBikers.

  176. #376
    banned
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    552
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    What?? It's been the same for a hundred years. The only people trying to change it are eBikers.
    More drunk arguing.

  177. #377
    mtbr member
    Reputation: J.B. Weld's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    14,143
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_bo View Post
    You really don't try to see anything other than what you want to see...


    Sounds familiar somehow.
    I brake for stinkbugs

  178. #378
    Life's a Garden, dig it!
    Reputation: chuckha62's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    3,959
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_bo View Post
    Blah, Blah, Blah...

    More irrational blather...

    Blah, Blah, Blah...

    Alternative "facts"...

    Blah, Blah, Blah...

    Additional made up shit...

    Blah, Blah, Blah...


    Result:
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    Will you shut up, man?!

  179. #379
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    8,827
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_bo View Post
    But none of these people are making an argument that shuttling should eliminate access to MTB trails.
    Once again, I have no idea what you're trying to say.
    Sinister Bikes
    Wraith Bicycles
    Sunday River Mtn Bike Park
    NEMBA
    Wachusett Brewing Co.

  180. #380
    Not a role model
    Reputation: ninjichor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2018
    Posts
    1,311
    Topic was initially about an article that discovered how two groups of overweight people had similar fitness gains when biking to work, despite one group having pedelecs and another having conventional bikes. Scientific evidence to question the claim that conventional bikes are the superior option over ebikes if you're after fitness. The article did go on talking about other positive aspects observed from the pedelec group, but no one seems to be disagreeing with any of it. Thread just seemed to be derailed by people being militant about not wanting to share trails with anything "motorized". Trails which they seem to think were hard earned, to the point that they think they have a superiority stance in determining how it should be managed.

    I'd prefer to leave this to the experts. In my eyes, "both sides" are closed minded. I'd consider someone to be open minded if they moved passed this bickering and tried to discuss solutions, rather than only trying to identify problems (some personal). Solutions regarding how to share, how to be receptive to concerns, and how to improve etiquette. If people could agree on common etiquette, besides "don't show up on my trails with your emotorbike, or I don't know how I'll control my rage", we can move on to real problems and drop the stress of people being assholes to each other regarding this topic. Yes, many of you are good at pointing out asshole-like behavior, but do you know the true root cause is your personalities and perceptions and not the ebike itself, and that the solution is fixing your attitude? Shame that people don't want to fix things themselves nor take any personal responsibility... hard to respect someone, or their opinion, when they don't respect their own words enough to fix them.

  181. #381
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Mr Pig's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    11,033
    Quote Originally Posted by ninjichor View Post
    I'd consider someone to be open minded if they moved passed this bickering and tried to discuss how to share.
    But the sharing is potentially the problem, not the answer?

  182. #382
    Location: 10 ft from Hell Moderator
    Reputation: life behind bars's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    4,451
    Quote Originally Posted by ninjichor View Post
    Topic was initially about an article that discovered how two groups of overweight people had similar fitness gains when biking to work, despite one group having pedelecs and another having conventional bikes. The article did go on talking about other positive aspects observed from the pedelec group, but no one seems to be disagreeing with any of it. Just people being militant about not wanting to share trails with anything "motorized". Trails which they seem to think were hard earned, to the point that they think they have a superiority stance in determining how it should be managed.

    Leaving this to the experts. In my eyes, "both sides" are closed minded. I'd consider someone to be open minded if they moved passed this bickering and tried to discuss how to share. How to be receptive to concerns. How to create solutions, such as new etiquette rules. If people could agree on common etiquette, besides "don't show up on my trails with your emotorbike, or I don't know how I'll control my rage", we can move on to real problems and drop the stress of people being assholes to each other. Yes, you are good at pointing it out, but do you know the true root cause is your personalities and perceptions and not the ebike itself, and that the solution is fixing your attitude?



    Change attitudes towards e-motorbikes? To what attitude? One of acceptance or can we settle it with an attitude that they have no place in mountain biking?
    I ncredibly
    M yopic
    B ackstabbing
    A ssholes

  183. #383
    Not a role model
    Reputation: ninjichor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2018
    Posts
    1,311
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    But the sharing is potentially the problem, not the answer?
    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    Change attitudes towards e-motorbikes? To what attitude? One of acceptance or can we settle it with an attitude that they have no place in mountain biking?
    How about some analogy.

    Analogy 1: Joey doesn't share food. Joey is a fictional entity. It could be one animal, in a group of animals, who shows such behavior at chow time. Or you can think of a certain sitcom...

    What kind of person says the act of sharing is the problem? What kind of person say the problem is the food? Get food that people don't want to share? Don't eat with others? Me saying the true root cause is Joey's personality is apparently insignificant... one solution to this problem is to have the entire outside world that comes into contact with Joey be accommodating to this quirk of his. Joey looking like he could be a thug/mobster probably helps motivate people in this direction.

    What happens if some people who thinks Joey's no-food-sharing issue clashes with their belief that sharing food is the proper way, approach him with some aggressive plan to convince him? What if their aggressive plan is to verbally abuse him and threaten to kick them out from the social group? What if their aggressive plan was to just to act inconsiderate of others, acting according to only your own will, taking food from Joey and expecting to be forgiven, as you consider it normal to be sharing food with everyone when eating out? I'll stop here and will just say these options are foolish... replying negatively to negativity just results in a more toxic situation.

    What would be the ideal positive outcome, where you see improvement for all? Joey changing to be less adamant about not sharing food? Is such change hard to pull-off?



    Right now, there's a ton of "closet supporters" of socially unaccepted things. Do you have some sort of weird fetish that you don't want people to publicly know you have, since it is controversial? Do you like making mean jokes about other people for laughs? Do you seek validation from others to know that these things are more accepted than you think? If you often post, asking if you're not alone in thinking in a certain controversial way, you have the signs of insecurity and are prone to tribalism, which tend to form groups of people who seem to only use a small fraction of the intellectual power to bicker about stuff that people like to judge ignorantly.

  184. #384
    Location: 10 ft from Hell Moderator
    Reputation: life behind bars's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    4,451
    Quote Originally Posted by ninjichor View Post
    How about some analogy.

    Analogy 1: Joey doesn't share food. Joey is a fictional entity. It could be one animal, in a group of animals, who shows such behavior at chow time. Or you can think of a certain sitcom...

    What kind of person says the act of sharing is the problem? What kind of person say the problem is the food? Get food that people don't want to share? Don't eat with others? Me saying the true root cause is Joey's personality is apparently insignificant... one solution to this problem is to have the entire outside world that comes into contact with Joey be accommodating to this quirk of his. Joey looking like he could be a thug/mobster probably helps motivate people in this direction.

    What happens if some people who thinks Joey's no-food-sharing issue clashes with their belief that sharing food is the proper way, approach him with some aggressive plan to convince him? What if their aggressive plan is to verbally abuse him and threaten to kick them out from the social group? What if their aggressive plan was to just to act inconsiderate of others, acting according to only your own will, taking food from Joey and expecting to be forgiven, as you consider it normal to be sharing food with everyone when eating out? I'll stop here and will just say these options are foolish... replying negatively to negativity just results in a more toxic situation.

    What would be the ideal positive outcome, where you see improvement for all? Joey changing to be less adamant about not sharing food? Is such change hard to pull-off?



    Right now, there's a ton of "closet supporters" of socially unaccepted things. Do you have some sort of weird fetish that you don't want people to publicly know you have, since it is controversial? Do you like making mean jokes about other people for laughs? Do you seek validation from others to know that these things are more accepted than you think?





    Ideal outcome? E-motorbikers pick up a freakin shovel and start digging.
    I ncredibly
    M yopic
    B ackstabbing
    A ssholes

  185. #385
    Not a role model
    Reputation: ninjichor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2018
    Posts
    1,311
    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    Ideal outcome? E-motorbikers pick up a freakin shovel and start digging.
    I see you're doubling down out people getting their own food. xD

    I'm sure the local trail foundations near you wouldn't decline money coming from ebikers. Do you think they'll be hurting if a bunch of judgmental people decided to boycott them because they aren't anti-ebike?

  186. #386
    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ SuperModerator
    Reputation: Klurejr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    7,380
    Quote Originally Posted by ninjichor View Post
    Thread just seemed to be derailed
    yeah, it has strayed far from the tracks, time to close it down.
    Ride Bikes, Drink Craft Beer, Repeat.

    Know these before you post:
    MTBR Posting Guidelines

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 52
    Last Post: 02-20-2018, 08:42 PM
  2. Positive well written article on ebikes
    By Phil413 in forum E-Bikes
    Replies: 49
    Last Post: 12-01-2016, 01:04 AM
  3. Good bib fit for tall and skinny people
    By Skedasticity in forum Apparel and Protection
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 08-31-2015, 09:23 AM
  4. Any cool DIY ebikes on this forum?
    By auraslip in forum General Discussion
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 05-11-2012, 03:57 AM
  5. Fit...Fit...Fit questions (bike fit, that is!)
    By Alan in forum General Discussion
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 04-02-2007, 07:06 AM

Members who have read this thread: 1

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

THE SITE

ABOUT MTBR

VISIT US AT

© Copyright 2020 VerticalScope Inc. All rights reserved.