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    Colorado land managers on e bikes

    I always knew it would be just a matter of time before land managers found themselves on an eMTB. This should be interesting...


    https://peopleforbikes.org/blog/colorado-land-managers-are-using-electric-bikes/

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    Taken for a spin, rescue and trail access. Just like the atvs at my local stuff.

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    Quote Originally Posted by leeboh View Post
    Taken for a spin, rescue and trail access. Just like the atvs at my local stuff.
    It doesnít really matter how or why they get in the hands of land managers, itís the fact that they have.

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    Since they use quads at my local CO state park on much of the "singletrack", I'd be glad to see them switch to ebikes. Quads make for weird lines...

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    So what happens when a land manager rides a PAS bike and likes it?

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    What happens when they run across one of these?

    http://forums.mtbr.com/classifieds/h...-new-post.html
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    Quote Originally Posted by ALimon View Post
    So what happens when a land manager rides a PAS bike and likes it?
    You don't think they like the quads? But yet they don't open the trails to them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    You don't think they like the quads? But yet they don't open the trails to them.
    Theyíre nothing like a quad. Címon man. Thatís crazy talk. Land managers have brought in ebikes to see how they would work in the park system. Now why would they do that if they were 100% opposed to them?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ALimon View Post
    Now why would they do that if they were 100% opposed to them?
    Nobody is 100% opposed to ebikes....okay somebody is, but I don't know them...I've ridden motorcycles since I was 17. I think people on motorized forms of recreaction should have a place to go. That said it's not on mountain bike/hiking trails.

    Land managers are not stopping ebikes from trails because they hate them. The ones that are making that choice don't see them as being a good fit 100% human powered recreation. That's a reasonable viewpoint.

    Locally ATVs and pickups are used to conduct SAR operations and maintain trails, but the trails are still limited to non-motorized use for the public.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ALimon View Post
    Theyíre nothing like a quad. Címon man. Thatís crazy talk. Land managers have brought in ebikes to see how they would work in the park system. Now why would they do that if they were 100% opposed to them?
    Did you read the article?

    I never said ebikes were "like a quad". They are using them to replace ice vehicles and hiking to areas they can't reach with their current ice vehicles. "They" as in the staff.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ALimon View Post
    So what happens when a land manager rides a PAS bike and likes it?
    Most here have ridden them, there's been demos, and number like ebikes, and some plan on getting one, they just don't think a 750w ebike is appropriate on the trails they manage. All of them recognize the difference between them and a bicycle, even more so after riding them. I fully support a land managers decision to allow, or not allow them, they know their particular situations better than you or I.

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    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    What happens when they run across one of these?

    http://forums.mtbr.com/classifieds/h...-new-post.html
    As soon as I saw that posting I deleted it. We don't allow the discussion of 3000w electric motorcycles, we certainly are not going to allow them to be sold through here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post
    Most here have ridden them, there's been demos, and number like ebikes, and some plan on getting one, they just don't think a 750w ebike is appropriate on the trails they manage. All of them recognize the difference between them and a bicycle, even more so after riding them. I fully support a land managers decision to allow, or not allow them, they know their particular situations better than you or I.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post
    Most here have ridden them, there's been demos, and number like ebikes, and some plan on getting one, they just don't think a 750w ebike is appropriate on the trails they manage. All of them recognize the difference between them and a bicycle, even more so after riding them. I fully support a land managers decision to allow, or not allow them, they know their particular situations better than you or I.
    I also agree that 750w is overkill.
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    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    Did you read the article?

    I never said ebikes were "like a quad". They are using them to replace ice vehicles and hiking to areas they can't reach with their current ice vehicles. "They" as in the staff.

    ?We wanted to give staff a better idea of the power and capabilities the bikes have,? said Dellaca. ?Both in their applications as a tool for the Parks and how they might affect different user groups on trails.?

    I read it, and based on their comments theyíre looking at ebikes beyind just being tools for the park.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ALimon View Post
    ?We wanted to give staff a better idea of the power and capabilities the bikes have,? said Dellaca. ?Both in their applications as a tool for the Parks and how they might affect different user groups on trails.?

    I read it, and based on their comments theyíre looking at ebikes beyind just being tools for the park.
    Ok, but:

    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post
    Most here have ridden them, there's been demos, and number like ebikes, and some plan on getting one, they just don't think a 750w ebike is appropriate on the trails they manage. All of them recognize the difference between them and a bicycle, even more so after riding them. I fully support a land managers decision to allow, or not allow them, they know their particular situations better than you or I.
    And as I've said before, I think they are fine on some trails, just not all trails. Land managers who know their situations should decided to allow or not.
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    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    Ok, but:



    And as I've said before, I think they are fine on some trails, just not all trails. Land managers who know their situations should decided to allow or not.

    I totally agree with that. I think the right approach is to designate select trails for those who want to ride an eMTB. Total access, not necessary. No access, not realistic. I like the fact that the land managers do recognize a new segment and want to see what itís all about before it shows up on their door step and they donít have an answer for it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ALimon View Post
    I like the fact that the land managers do recognize a new segment and want to see what itís all about before it shows up on their door step and they donít have an answer for it.



    They've had plenty of time to formulate an answer and many have. E-bikes are hardly a "new segment" as this thread from almost 6 years ago, http://forums.mtbr.com/trail-buildin...ls-809098.html so aptly demonstrates.
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    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    They've had plenty of time to formulate an answer and many have. E-bikes are hardly a "new segment" as this thread from almost 6 years ago, http://forums.mtbr.com/trail-buildin...ls-809098.html so aptly demonstrates.
    And 6 years ago you didnít have every manufacturer producing an eMTB.

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    I own an e-bike and I've ridden lots of them - and I *still* think they don't belong on many trails, especially given the 750w US Class 1 power limit and total lack of regulation of manufacturers in the US.

    Now, if the EU standard had been adopted, I think you might change my mind a bit. For me, the bottom line is that I'm totally ok with a vehicle that makes mountain biking *easier*. For even the most handicapped/out of shape rider, that's probably only going to require 100-150W of power and an assist cutoff at 15mph or less to allow a mountain bike type experience, but I can live with 250W. What I can't live with is a vehicle that makes the rider significantly faster than even a fit/motivated person, because speed is already the #1 problem we face for trail access.

    I think e-bikes are a great tool. They are not ok for everyone everywhere for recreation. I would imagine a lot of land managers with similar experience feel the same way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by vikb View Post
    Nobody is 100% opposed to ebikes....okay somebody is, but I don't know them...I've ridden motorcycles since I was 17. I think people on motorized forms of recreaction should have a place to go. That said it's not on mountain bike/hiking trails.

    Land managers are not stopping ebikes from trails because they hate them. The ones that are making that choice don't see them as being a good fit 100% human powered recreation. That's a reasonable viewpoint.

    Locally ATVs and pickups are used to conduct SAR operations and maintain trails, but the trails are still limited to non-motorized use for the public.
    Where are all these motorized only trails? Some of my favorite bicycle trails allow motorcycles while seeing lots of hiking traffic. Multi use means all users including engines and motors. Partial use means bike/hike/horse, and exclusive use means hike only. The trails that allow trailscooters are still bike and hike trails.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Walt View Post
    I own an e-bike and I've ridden lots of them - and I *still* think they don't belong on many trails, especially given the 750w US Class 1 power limit and total lack of regulation of manufacturers in the US.

    Now, if the EU standard had been adopted, I think you might change my mind a bit. For me, the bottom line is that I'm totally ok with a vehicle that makes mountain biking *easier*. For even the most handicapped/out of shape rider, that's probably only going to require 100-150W of power and an assist cutoff at 15mph or less to allow a mountain bike type experience, but I can live with 250W. What I can't live with is a vehicle that makes the rider significantly faster than even a fit/motivated person, because speed is already the #1 problem we face for trail access.

    I think e-bikes are a great tool. They are not ok for everyone everywhere for recreation. I would imagine a lot of land managers with similar experience feel the same way.

    -Walt
    That's the thing, opening up every trail to e-bikes and bikes would still mean that there are places they can't or won't go. There are trails that nobody uses. Strava is a great app that allows you to see where particular user groups tend to congregate and then you can pick a trail where you are unlikely to see particular users. If there are trails were bicycles, pedal assist, horses, motorcycles, or dogs are found, then possible solutions can be determined.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Walt View Post
    I own an e-bike and I've ridden lots of them - and I *still* think they don't belong on many trails, especially given the 750w US Class 1 power limit and total lack of regulation of manufacturers in the US.

    Now, if the EU standard had been adopted, I think you might change my mind a bit. For me, the bottom line is that I'm totally ok with a vehicle that makes mountain biking *easier*. For even the most handicapped/out of shape rider, that's probably only going to require 100-150W of power and an assist cutoff at 15mph or less to allow a mountain bike type experience, but I can live with 250W. What I can't live with is a vehicle that makes the rider significantly faster than even a fit/motivated person, because speed is already the #1 problem we face for trail access.

    I think e-bikes are a great tool. They are not ok for everyone everywhere for recreation. I would imagine a lot of land managers with similar experience feel the same way.

    -Walt
    The Specialized Levo is 530 watts. Absolutely an amazing eMTB. Itís performance is no faster than a fast pro would ride. Specialized designed this bike to fit in on multi use trails without a doubt. Nothing obnoxious about the bike. I rode it, I liked it on punchy climbs, hated it on flowing pump sections where it would shut off. So maybe this watts thing is a bit over rated. Iím not sure if youíve ridden a Levo Walt, but If so, Iíd like to hear your thoughts on the bike.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Linktung View Post
    Where are all these motorized only trails? Some of my favorite bicycle trails allow motorcycles while seeing lots of hiking traffic. Multi use means all users including engines and motors. Partial use means bike/hike/horse, and exclusive use means hike only. The trails that allow trailscooters are still bike and hike trails.
    Umm, no. Current english that applies to trail verbage in the US, multi use means hikers, bikers, dog walkers and sometimes horses.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ALimon View Post
    The Specialized Levo is 530 watts. Absolutely an amazing eMTB. Itís performance is no faster than a fast pro would ride. Specialized designed this bike to fit in on multi use trails without a doubt. Nothing obnoxious about the bike. I rode it, I liked it on punchy climbs, hated it on flowing pump sections where it would shut off. So maybe this watts thing is a bit over rated. Iím not sure if youíve ridden a Levo Walt, but If so, Iíd like to hear your thoughts on the bike.
    I have ridden a Levo (from a couple of years ago when it was first introduced, I think it has changed a bit since then). My thoughts:
    -Range sucks if you go turbo a lot, but batteries will improve.
    -For flat to slight uphill stuff (up to about 5% grade), it will (if desired) make you *very* fast, to the point that on many trails it would be a problem (ie 2-way trails with bad sight lines). I could easily hit the limiter on ~5% grade stuff - 18-20mph rather than 10-12. Jumping stuff and wishing for berms/braking into the corners. That's where the difference in speed is most obvious.
    -For steeper climbs, speed can be much faster than an unassisted rider, of course, but probably not enough to be a problem (ie 8-10mph rather than 3-5).
    -The limiter is a MAJOR bummer on the road/fire road when trying to get *to* the trail (feels like you dropped an anchor when the motor cuts) and I was wondering what it would take to dongle/delimit right away.

    If the limiter cut out at 15 it would solve the flat/slight climb problem, but it would also be quite horrible in any non-trail situation. So it's a tough situation in that any bike that's going to be 100% sure to be no problem on singletrack is also going to be dead awful getting there in the first place.

    For directional trails that are mostly used by bikes, I think they are fine. For MUT with 2-way traffic, the trail would need to be appropriate (ie, avoid long straights into blind corners). Tight/twisty NE trails would be mostly fine, you'd probably not go meaningfully faster than an unassisted rider. A lot of legacy MUT in the Western US probably isn't so great, though.

    Around here there's also a legal issue - most of our trails depend on recreation and conservation easements that specify no motors. There is probably no way around that short of renegotiating the easements, which would be... quite a task.

    -Walt

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    Quote Originally Posted by leeboh View Post
    Umm, no. Current english that applies to trail verbage in the US, multi use means hikers, bikers, dog walkers and sometimes horses.
    There are entire organizations here in the US that are named around multi use including motors.

    Regardless, what do you call trails that allow bikes, horses, hikers, motorized? The people who use multiuse in this scenario are the ones who understand the word multiple.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Linktung View Post
    There are entire organizations here in the US that are named around multi use including motors.

    Regardless, what do you call trails that allow bikes, horses, hikers, motorized? The people who use multiuse in this scenario are the ones who understand the word multiple.
    That is absolutely true, but in the majority of the US the ship has sailed on motorized vehicles on singletrack - and hence "MUT" is a term that *most* people use to describe trails open to all nonmotorized users.

    It does work fine in places with low user density, but those trails have become rarer and rarer (as a former enduro/hare scramble guy, I should know) and they are now practically nonexistent in lots of places.

    -Walt

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    Quote Originally Posted by ALimon View Post
    The Specialized Levo is 530 watts. Absolutely an amazing eMTB. Itís performance is no faster than a fast pro would ride. Specialized designed this bike to fit in on multi use trails without a doubt. Nothing obnoxious about the bike. I rode it, I liked it on punchy climbs, hated it on flowing pump sections where it would shut off. So maybe this watts thing is a bit over rated. Iím not sure if youíve ridden a Levo Walt, but If so, Iíd like to hear your thoughts on the bike.
    I have been riding 2 levo for a year now, both in town and in the mountains, and they are great for green or blue trails. Their weight is not an asset for black trails or rock gardens. That's where the great shocks and fat tires are useful. I still take them, but will have a hard time keeping up with regular MTBs. It took me a couple of rides to tune my style and being efficient going uphill. It's essential when you ride an Ebike, to know when to drop the assistance to a lesser level to avoid to gain too much speed going uphill.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Walt View Post
    I have ridden a Levo (from a couple of years ago when it was first introduced, I think it has changed a bit since then). My thoughts:
    -Range sucks if you go turbo a lot, but batteries will improve.
    -For flat to slight uphill stuff (up to about 5% grade), it will (if desired) make you *very* fast, to the point that on many trails it would be a problem (ie 2-way trails with bad sight lines). I could easily hit the limiter on ~5% grade stuff - 18-20mph rather than 10-12. Jumping stuff and wishing for berms/braking into the corners. That's where the difference in speed is most obvious.
    -For steeper climbs, speed can be much faster than an unassisted rider, of course, but probably not enough to be a problem (ie 8-10mph rather than 3-5).
    -The limiter is a MAJOR bummer on the road/fire road when trying to get *to* the trail (feels like you dropped an anchor when the motor cuts) and I was wondering what it would take to dongle/delimit right away.

    If the limiter cut out at 15 it would solve the flat/slight climb problem, but it would also be quite horrible in any non-trail situation. So it's a tough situation in that any bike that's going to be 100% sure to be no problem on singletrack is also going to be dead awful getting there in the first place.

    For directional trails that are mostly used by bikes, I think they are fine. For MUT with 2-way traffic, the trail would need to be appropriate (ie, avoid long straights into blind corners). Tight/twisty NE trails would be mostly fine, you'd probably not go meaningfully faster than an unassisted rider. A lot of legacy MUT in the Western US probably isn't so great, though.

    Around here there's also a legal issue - most of our trails depend on recreation and conservation easements that specify no motors. There is probably no way around that short of renegotiating the easements, which would be... quite a task.

    -Walt
    While I agree that there are many issues needed to iron out about e-bike access and limits, I never get the "I can go up hill faster now so that is a danger to others" argument. That same trail would have the exact same issues if you were headed downhill on any bike, a 5% grade would probably allow any bike to exceed 20 mph if desired. At some point rider responsibility must be factored into the equation and riders should not be bombing down (or up) trails that don't allow proper safety margins for meeting hikers/bikers/riders.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zinfan View Post
    While I agree that there are many issues needed to iron out about e-bike access and limits, I never get the "I can go up hill faster now so that is a danger to others" argument. That same trail would have the exact same issues if you were headed downhill on any bike, a 5% grade would probably allow any bike to exceed 20 mph if desired. At some point rider responsibility must be factored into the equation and riders should not be bombing down (or up) trails that don't allow proper safety margins for meeting hikers/bikers/riders.
    2-way bike traffic (closing speeds) is a problem, as are hiker expectations about traffic coming uphill.

    I have actually already experienced this - descending (at a ~15mph) on low visibility singletrack and encountering e-bikes coming up at ~15mph when normal bikes would do maybe 8. No collision but it was exciting. If I'd been pushing to go fast, it could have been ugly. When you add climbing speed (or speed on the flats) on 2-way trails, you dramatically increase closing speeds. I'm sure you understand why that's bad.

    Agreed that overall top speed (ie, descending) is no higher. Gravity produces a lot of watts!

    -Walt

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    Quote Originally Posted by Walt View Post
    2-way bike traffic (closing speeds) is a problem, as are hiker expectations about traffic coming uphill.

    I have actually already experienced this - descending (at a ~15mph) on low visibility singletrack and encountering e-bikes coming up at ~15mph when normal bikes would do maybe 8. No collision but it was exciting. If I'd been pushing to go fast, it could have been ugly. When you add climbing speed (or speed on the flats) on 2-way trails, you dramatically increase closing speeds. I'm sure you understand why that's bad.

    Agreed that overall top speed (ie, descending) is no higher. Gravity produces a lot of watts!

    -Walt
    Now you have to go slower on the downhills, that sounds like a win for all trail users.....hooray for ebikes!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Linktung View Post
    Now you have to go slower on the downhills, that sounds like a win for all trail users.....hooray for ebikes!!
    Not at all - I was in great control and had plenty of time to react to/stop for normal uphill traffic (whether hikers or horses or bikes). Even at a careful, controlled speed - it was dangerous *for everyone involved*.

    That's not good (or fun) for anyone. On a flatter trail, you could have e-bike vs. e-bike at 40mph closing speed. Erm... not a lot of land managers are going to be happy about that idea.

    Closing speed is the #1 problem on MUTs. Period. Ask any land manager you want about this and you'll get the same answer. Bikes going slow on the climbs is quite literally the only reason they are tolerated in many places - hikers and other users can plan ahead for where and from what direction they will encounter mountain bikes descending, and expect that everywhere else, they'll be not much faster than a trail runner.

    As I said, not all trails have sight line problems or 2-way traffic (or non-bike traffic). But many do. You can't add speed and expect no consequences.

    -Walt

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zinfan View Post
    While I agree that there are many issues needed to iron out about e-bike access and limits, I never get the "I can go up hill faster now so that is a danger to others" argument. That same trail would have the exact same issues if you were headed downhill on any bike, a 5% grade would probably allow any bike to exceed 20 mph if desired. At some point rider responsibility must be factored into the equation and riders should not be bombing down (or up) trails that don't allow proper safety margins for meeting hikers/bikers/riders.
    Great point. Iíve noticed rider responsibility is often overlooked when discussing ebike climbing/closing speeds. I get the whole closing speed thing, but weíve had closing speed issues long before ebikes showed up. Iíve had plenty of close calls, all by knuckleheads bombing blind corners and riding way too fast for the trail conditions, zero responsibility. Itís hard to point a finger at an ebike for climbing too fast when you have a pedal bike descending too fast also. We all like to bomb the downhills, but you have to be smart about when and where you do it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Walt View Post
    Not at all - I was in great control and had plenty of time to react to/stop for normal uphill traffic (whether hikers or horses or bikes). Even at a careful, controlled speed - it was dangerous *for everyone involved*.

    That's not good (or fun) for anyone. On a flatter trail, you could have e-bike vs. e-bike at 40mph closing speed. Erm... not a lot of land managers are going to be happy about that idea.

    Closing speed is the #1 problem on MUTs. Period. Ask any land manager you want about this and you'll get the same answer. Bikes going slow on the climbs is quite literally the only reason they are tolerated in many places - hikers and other users can plan ahead for where and from what direction they will encounter mountain bikes descending, and expect that everywhere else, they'll be not much faster than a trail runner.

    As I said, not all trails have sight line problems or 2-way traffic (or non-bike traffic). But many do. You can't add speed and expect no consequences.

    -Walt
    15 mph on a downhill with bad sight lines isn't a carefull, controlled speed and you almost took out some riders because of it. Downhill 15 mph carries much more force then an an uphill rider. You now need to be going much slower or you run the risk of hitting an ebiker. As a hiker, I would rather have an ebiker going uphill at 25mph then have an ebiker decending at 15mph. Downhill acceleration is far more unpredictable and dangerous then uphill acceleration. Other user groups could care less about bike on bike crashes, and since they aren't decending at 15 mph they don't have your vulnerabilities in this scenario. Dogs are allowed on Park City trails and on my best day on a pedelec, I am much slower uphill then the average canine. If you need slow uphill speeds, you are going too fast. Good thing we have people on ebikes now to give you some motivation for safe behavior.

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    I would like to go riding with guys that can go 20 mph uphill on a Levo. If there is any grade or features, I call BS. I have spent alot of time on Emtb and Eroad bikes all thru the mountains and unless youíre Froome or Saigon, it ainít happening.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ALimon View Post
    Great point. Iíve noticed rider responsibility is often overlooked when discussing ebike climbing/closing speeds. I get the whole closing speed thing, but weíve had closing speed issues long before ebikes showed up. Iíve had plenty of close calls, all by knuckleheads bombing blind corners and riding way too fast for the trail conditions, zero responsibility. Itís hard to point a finger at an ebike for climbing too fast when you have a pedal bike descending too fast also. We all like to bomb the downhills, but you have to be smart about when and where you do it.
    Land managers have long ago learned that they have to manage for the lowest common demoninator. So, sure, there are idiots on mtbs that ride too fast in every possible scenario, which on a mtb is mostly on descents, since you're limited by how fit you are everywhere else. Providing more power via a motor simply increases the number of riders who are now able to ride faster in more situations, allowing more idiots to ride faster in the wrong places. Ofc, not everyone is an idiot, but that's not who creates problems for the LM's.

    If you don't think adding a few miles per hour to closing speeds is an issue, would you rather walk around a corner and into another walker, or run around a corner into another runner? There's only about a 5mph difference between walking and running speeds.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post
    Land managers have long ago learned that they have to manage for the lowest common demoninator. So, sure, there are idiots on mtbs that ride too fast in every possible scenario, which on a mtb is mostly on descents, since you're limited by how fit you are everywhere else. Providing more power via a motor simply increases the number of riders who are now able to ride faster in more situations, allowing more idiots to ride faster in the wrong places. Ofc, not everyone is an idiot, but that's not who creates problems for the LM's.

    If you don't think adding a few miles per hour to closing speeds is an issue, would you rather walk around a corner and into another walker, or run around a corner into another runner? There's only about a 5mph difference between walking and running speeds.
    I think this article has shown that land managers, like many, are curious as to how the ebike can be utilized both as a work tool and a recreational bike. Iíve always said, once a land manager gets a taste of an ebike like the Levo, it will open up access to some extent. Itís inevitable IMO. TIme will tell.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Linktung View Post
    15 mph on a downhill with bad sight lines isn't a carefull, controlled speed and you almost took out some riders because of it. Downhill 15 mph carries much more force then an an uphill rider. You now need to be going much slower or you run the risk of hitting an ebiker. As a hiker, I would rather have an ebiker going uphill at 25mph then have an ebiker decending at 15mph. Downhill acceleration is far more unpredictable and dangerous then uphill acceleration. Other user groups could care less about bike on bike crashes, and since they aren't decending at 15 mph they don't have your vulnerabilities in this scenario. Dogs are allowed on Park City trails and on my best day on a pedelec, I am much slower uphill then the average canine. If you need slow uphill speeds, you are going too fast. Good thing we have people on ebikes now to give you some motivation for safe behavior.
    I think this is a fascinating idea, because indeed, it's easier to stop going uphill than downhill (cut the power and your speed drops a LOT faster). In an ideal world on MUT, we'd ride uphill fast and downhill slow.

    The thing is, though, it would mean the end of normal mountain biking as we know it:
    -E bikes would go uphill at 15-20mph (super fun).
    -Normal mountain bikes would go uphill at the usual 3-10mph.
    -All downhill bikes (powered or not) would have to go downhill at <10mph.

    Unpowered bikes would go essentially the same (trail runner) speed the entire ride.

    That doesn't sound very fun for anyone but the e-bike rider - if the goal is to *share* the experience with normal bikes, this scenario won't really work, as it's a complete reconfiguration of the user experience for all folks on wheels.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    I would like to go riding with guys that can go 20 mph uphill on a Levo. If there is any grade or features, I call BS. I have spent alot of time on Emtb and Eroad bikes all thru the mountains and unless youíre Froome or Saigon, it ainít happening.
    I totally agree. I found climbing on the Levo to be easier more so than faster. Iíll take Froome on a climb against anyone here on a Levo.

    I guesss that kind of puts things in prospective. An average joe on a Levo would get destroyed by a pro on a pedal bike.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    I would like to go riding with guys that can go 20 mph uphill on a Levo. If there is any grade or features, I call BS. I have spent alot of time on Emtb and Eroad bikes all thru the mountains and unless youíre Froome or Saigon, it ainít happening.
    I can very easily do it on a <5% grade, without even going Turbo. Of course if there are technical features or steeper grades or sharp turns, that will slow you down. But it did turn mild uphills into (as many manufacturers advertise) uphill flow trails - as in, braking into corners and getting a little air on small bumps.

    Now, for most folks, that will require some considerable effort. But it's doable if you're sort of fit and motivated to do it. You'll annihilate the battery but those have already improved and will continue to - and some people just want to go for a 45 minute lunchtime shred session, there's plenty enough juice to turbo that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ALimon View Post
    I think this article has shown that land managers, like many, are curious as to how the ebike can be utilized both as a work tool and a recreational bike. Iíve always said, once a land manager gets a taste of an ebike like the Levo, it will open up access to some extent. Itís inevitable IMO. TIme will tell.
    The land managers here did ride Levos, which led to still not allowing access. Their call, some will, some won't.

    Unless you're talking about Europe, the "ebike like a Levo" is a class of ebike that doesn't exist in the US, land managers have to manage based on what the law allows, and what they think the impact of that law will be in 5 - 10 years. They don't rewrite code very often. So, they're looking at 750w emtbs, not the current 250w emtbs. Maintaining that a "ebike like a Levo" is an example of what the future holds is no more realistic than using 100w emtbs as your example.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Walt View Post
    I think this is a fascinating idea, because indeed, it's easier to stop going uphill than downhill (cut the power and your speed drops a LOT faster). In an ideal world on MUT, we'd ride uphill fast and downhill slow.

    The thing is, though, it would mean the end of normal mountain biking as we know it:
    -E bikes would go uphill at 15-20mph (super fun).
    -Normal mountain bikes would go uphill at the usual 3-10mph.
    -All downhill bikes (powered or not) would have to go downhill at <10mph.

    Unpowered bikes would go essentially the same (trail runner) speed the entire ride.

    That doesn't sound very fun for anyone but the e-bike rider - if the goal is to *share* the experience with normal bikes, this scenario won't really work, as it's a complete reconfiguration of the user experience for all folks on wheels.

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    Nonsense

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post
    The land managers here did ride Levos, which led to still not allowing access. Their call, some will, some won't.

    Unless you're talking about Europe, the "ebike like a Levo" is a class of ebike that doesn't exist in the US, land managers have to manage based on what the law allows, and what they think the impact of that law will be in 5 - 10 years. They don't rewrite code very often. So, they're looking at 750w emtbs, not the current 250w emtbs. Maintaining that a "ebike like a Levo" is an example of what the future holds is no more realistic than using 100w emtbs as your example.
    Iím not sure the laws need to be rewritten. I think when the laws were written PAS bikes didnít exist. The non motorized vehicles they were referring to were autos, dirt bikes,quads etc... Thatís what they were targeting. Now comes along a bike with a PAS motor, no throttle, cuts off at 18-20mph. And at best rides like a top level pro. Itís not a bicycle, itís not a motorcycle, and for that reason, it deserves a whole new classification.

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    Falls under the " motorized vehicle" classification. Do it have a motor? Yes it does. Already rules and regs in place for those. Gas, electric whatev. Motorized. Wishful thinking only gets you so far.

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    Quote Originally Posted by leeboh View Post
    Falls under the " motorized vehicle" classification. Do it have a motor? Yes it does. Already rules and regs in place for those. Gas, electric whatev. Motorized. Wishful thinking only gets you so far.
    I don't really think, assuming you can keep people on class 1 bikes, that it's comparable to a motorcycle. Realistically the power output is a couple orders of magnitude less, the impact is way lower, etc.

    The key is to keep people at class 1, and that will be really hard and is the main potential problem. If someone could assure me that EU class 1 bikes are all that would ever see dirt, I'd be 100% behind it, because I have a ton of elderly neighbors I'd like to ride with. The potential for enhancing human happiness and well being is certainly there - but so is the potential for abuse and big problems.

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    Quote Originally Posted by leeboh View Post
    Falls under the " motorized vehicle" classification. Do it have a motor? Yes it does. Already rules and regs in place for those. Gas, electric whatev. Motorized. Wishful thinking only gets you so far.
    Stop being so stubborn. Youíre narrow minded approach makes no sense. Itís apparent your hate for e bikes. And thatís ok. But to not recognize that PAS bikes aka Levo and the PAS Walt mentioned that are in Europe are not motorcycles is just pure hard headedness, or wishful thinking, and that only gets you so far.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ALimon View Post
    Stop being so stubborn. Youíre narrow minded approach makes no sense. Itís apparent your hate for e bikes. And thatís ok. But to not recognize that PAS bikes aka Levo and the PAS Walt mentioned that are in Europe are not motorcycles is just pure hard headedness, or wishful thinking, and that only gets you so far.
    Where did he say an PAS ebike is a motorcycle?
    This post is a natural product. Variances in spelling & grammar should be appreciated as part of its character & beauty.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Walt View Post
    I can very easily do it on a <5% grade, without even going Turbo. Of course if there are technical features or steeper grades or sharp turns, that will slow you down. But it did turn mild uphills into (as many manufacturers advertise) uphill flow trails - as in, braking into corners and getting a little air on small bumps.

    Now, for most folks, that will require some considerable effort. But it's doable if you're sort of fit and motivated to do it. You'll annihilate the battery but those have already improved and will continue to - and some people just want to go for a 45 minute lunchtime shred session, there's plenty enough juice to turbo that.

    -Walt
    You must have some uphill freeways! Anyrate, slow down youíre giving us a bad rap! Iím building a new Jam2 29er Pro. There philosophy is go light with less battery, unless your really going epic all day add another 379 w for a total range of 780w. German engineering, it will be interesting. Iíve had really good luck with Levoís and hope this is da bomb!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    You must have some uphill freeways! Anyrate, slow down youíre giving us a bad rap! Iím building a new Jam2 29er Pro. There philosophy is go light with less battery, unless your really going epic all day add another 379 w for a total range of 780w. German engineering, it will be interesting. Iíve had really good luck with Levoís and hope this is da bomb!
    Oh, it wasn't on any of my local trails here. We have legal issues that basically mean that e-bikes are banned forever, unless someone wants to hire a few million bucks worth of lawyers and renegotiate all our recreation easements.

    But yes, PC has a lot of non-technical trails. You can go crazy fast uphill here on an e-bike if you want to.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Walt View Post
    Oh, it wasn't on any of my local trails here. We have legal issues that basically mean that e-bikes are banned forever, unless someone wants to hire a few million bucks worth of lawyers and renegotiate all our recreation easements.

    But yes, PC has a lot of non-technical trails. You can go crazy fast uphill here on an e-bike if you want to.


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    15mph downhill is not fast, thatís an easy cruiser speed. I routinely go 30mph plus on fast downhills. There are one way trails for that reason. E bikes have no advantage in the down.

    Quote Originally Posted by Linktung View Post
    15 mph on a downhill with bad sight lines isn't a carefull, controlled speed and you almost took out some riders because of it. Downhill 15 mph carries much more force then an an uphill rider. You now need to be going much slower or you run the risk of hitting an ebiker. As a hiker, I would rather have an ebiker going uphill at 25mph then have an ebiker decending at 15mph. Downhill acceleration is far more unpredictable and dangerous then uphill acceleration. Other user groups could care less about bike on bike crashes, and since they aren't decending at 15 mph they don't have your vulnerabilities in this scenario. Dogs are allowed on Park City trails and on my best day on a pedelec, I am much slower uphill then the average canine. If you need slow uphill speeds, you are going too fast. Good thing we have people on ebikes now to give you some motivation for safe behavior.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ALimon View Post
    Iím not sure the laws need to be rewritten. I think when the laws were written PAS bikes didnít exist. The non motorized vehicles they were referring to were autos, dirt bikes,quads etc... Thatís what they were targeting. Now comes along a bike with a PAS motor, no throttle, cuts off at 18-20mph. And at best rides like a top level pro. Itís not a bicycle, itís not a motorcycle, and for that reason, it deserves a whole new classification.
    You're way behind the curve and should do some research. The laws we're discussing are being written with PAS ebikes (along with throttles) specifically in mind, and to classify them as no longer motor vehicles. If effect, a new classification. Which forces land managers to evaluate what the laws allow, which is not just a 250w PAS ebike, but a 750w ebike. No one with any decision making powers that I know of confuses ebikes with motorcycles, but neither do they equate a 250w ebike with a 750w one. Or a bicycle for that matter.

    If you think 750 emtbs are OK on mtb trails, have at it, because that's what you are advocating for.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post
    You're way behind the curve and should do some research. The laws we're discussing are being written with PAS ebikes (along with throttles) specifically in mind, and to classify them as no longer motor vehicles. If effect, a new classification. Which forces land managers to evaluate what the laws allow, which is not just a 250w PAS ebike, but a 750w ebike. No one with any decision making powers that I know of confuses ebikes with motorcycles, but neither do they equate a 250w ebike with a 750w one. Or a bicycle for that matter.

    If you think 750 emtbs are OK on mtb trails, have at it, because that's what you are advocating for.
    I know most of the talk is of Colorado but California already has defined e-bike classes as of Jan. 2016.
    https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/f...01520160AB1096

    And while they do say these bikes are 750w or less, the Class 1 bike is pedal assist only and cuts off at 20 mph which makes a 750w motor wasteful as 250w will do that just fine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zinfan View Post
    I know most of the talk is of Colorado but California already has defined e-bike classes as of Jan. 2016.
    https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/f...01520160AB1096

    And while they do say these bikes are 750w or less, the Class 1 bike is pedal assist only and cuts off at 20 mph which makes a 750w motor wasteful as 250w will do that just fine.
    Colorado has similar laws written by the same org. If you don't think Joe erider won't choose a 500w emtb over a 250w emtb since it has 30% more torque at the same price point, I've got a bridge to sell you... Each year 250w motors offer more torque and manufacturers are cramming in more watt hours per battery, bigger is always better except to the few.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post
    Colorado has similar laws written by the same org. If you don't think Joe erider won't choose a 500w emtb over a 250w emtb since it has 30% more torque at the same price point, I've got a bridge to sell you... Each year 250w motors offer more torque and manufacturers are cramming in more watt hours per battery, bigger is always better except to the few.
    And what benefit will more torque have? It's hard enough to keep a 250w ebike from looping out on steep uphills, adding much more torque just adds to the issue. More torque isn't going to equal more speed as they are limited to 20 mph. And yes I know ebikes can be modified but even in ebike friendly Europe I see you posted that there is a 8000 euro fine for doing such modifications. More watt hours per battery = more range not more speed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post
    You're way behind the curve and should do some research. The laws we're discussing are being written with PAS ebikes (along with throttles) specifically in mind, and to classify them as no longer motor vehicles. If effect, a new classification. Which forces land managers to evaluate what the laws allow, which is not just a 250w PAS ebike, but a 750w ebike. No one with any decision making powers that I know of confuses ebikes with motorcycles, but neither do they equate a 250w ebike with a 750w one. Or a bicycle for that matter.

    If you think 750 emtbs are OK on mtb trails, have at it, because that's what you are advocating for.
    Iím advocating for 530 watts I guess. Thatís what the Levo is. Thatís the only eMTB ive ridden. Nothing obnoxious about the power output on that bike. Unless youíre a sloth, or ride like a sloth, or think mountain bikes should only be ridden like a sloth, then that might be the only way one could think the Levo is ďtoo fastĒ for a mtb

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    Quote Originally Posted by ALimon View Post
    Stop being so stubborn. Youíre narrow minded approach makes no sense. Itís apparent your hate for e bikes. And thatís ok. But to not recognize that PAS bikes aka Levo and the PAS Walt mentioned that are in Europe are not motorcycles is just pure hard headedness, or wishful thinking, and that only gets you so far.
    No hate here. I may even get one, for the commute. Great for cargo bikes as well. Great for that alternative to the car for transportation. Do they belong on multi use trails that's for non motorized use only? No, imho. Not allowed in MA where I ride. Ride legal, no issues. When you say stuff like e bikes are inevitable? That's something else. And recognize that the US is not the EU, not in norms ,customs or laws. They are not motorcycles, nor are they bikes either. And as to watts and power? There are no limits or rules, really once they are on the trails. Sure they might come from a factory and have a sticker that say X, but how do you tell them apart? Really.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ALimon View Post
    Iím advocating for 530 watts I guess. Thatís what the Levo is. Thatís the only eMTB ive ridden...
    You should probably spend some more time on ebikes because you seem to be very confused about how power output and motor watt ratings work and have shown you donít understand what your talking about on several occasions. For example, the Levo has a 250w rated motor, not 530w.

    So, are you advocating for a 530watt rated motor or a 250 watts rated motor?

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    Quote Originally Posted by leeboh View Post
    No hate here. I may even get one, for the commute. Great for cargo bikes as well. Great for that alternative to the car for transportation. Do they belong on multi use trails that's for non motorized use only? No, imho. Not allowed in MA where I ride. Ride legal, no issues. When you say stuff like e bikes are inevitable? That's something else. And recognize that the US is not the EU, not in norms ,customs or laws. They are not motorcycles, nor are they bikes either. And as to watts and power? There are no limits or rules, really once they are on the trails. Sure they might come from a factory and have a sticker that say X, but how do you tell them apart? Really.
    The US isn't like the EU in that we have the Right To Travel which they do not. That means the restrictions imposed by the land managers are unconstitutional. You can easily win any court case where a land manager is discriminating against personal choice of vehicle that has been deemed a right by the Supreme Court. The CPSC has on record that any assisted bike at 750 watts or less is a bicycle, and it would take an (unconstitutional) act of Congress to reverse that decision.

    There is very little visual distinction between an assisted bike and an unassisted bike and very few law enforcement agents willing to stick their nose that far up people's butts over something so trivial. You would also have to find a judge willing to support the decision. The downside is that on the surface assisted bikes appear to be illegal and authoritarian jerks ignorant of the Constitution feel like it is okay to harass pedelecs in the wild or on the internet.

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    Aw, jeez.

    Do we always have to end up back at the UN black-helicopters e-bike bans are unconstitutional thing?

    You don't have any constitutional right to operate anything you want anywhere you want, and you'd be laughed out of the courtroom if you claimed that. LMs can ban bikes, they can ban e-bikes, they can ban horses, they can even just ban everyone if circumstances warrant (ie, USFS blanket forest closures in NM right now for fire danger reasons).

    This sort of stuff really hurts you when it comes to actually persuading skeptical folks. Be reasonable and friendly and you might end up getting more legal access. Crazy conspiracy theories seldom work in the court of public opinion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Linktung View Post
    The US isn't like the EU in that we have the Right To Travel which they do not. That means the restrictions imposed by the land managers are unconstitutional. You can easily win any court case where a land manager is discriminating against personal choice of vehicle that has been deemed a right by the Supreme Court. The CPSC has on record that any assisted bike at 750 watts or less is a bicycle, and it would take an (unconstitutional) act of Congress to reverse that decision.

    There is very little visual distinction between an assisted bike and an unassisted bike and very few law enforcement agents willing to stick their nose that far up people's butts over something so trivial. You would also have to find a judge willing to support the decision. The downside is that on the surface assisted bikes appear to be illegal and authoritarian jerks ignorant of the Constitution feel like it is okay to harass pedelecs in the wild or on the internet.
    Yikes. CPSC? That might be for road rules concerning DOT public road rules, not off road rules concerning foot paths. Go win your court case, please report back. Which supreme court case law are you referring to? Every single land manger, agency, land owner and rule maker has rules for hikers, bikers and motorized use, allowed or not allowed. Visual distinction? You mean motorized or not, clear line in the sand. Environmental police do stings and confiscate the poachers' rides ( motos) impound them and then fine the riders where I pedal ( MA) Something like $ 500 to get your ride back and a $250 fine. Do you feel harassed? There is always the road forum. What Walt said, be a positive force to effect change, proactive and friendly go a long way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Walt View Post
    Do we always have to end up back at the UN black-helicopters e-bike bans are unconstitutional thing?

    You don't have any constitutional right to operate anything you want anywhere you want, and you'd be laughed out of the courtroom if you claimed that. LMs can ban bikes, they can ban e-bikes, they can ban horses, they can even just ban everyone if circumstances warrant (ie, USFS blanket forest closures in NM right now for fire danger reasons).

    This sort of stuff really hurts you when it comes to actually persuading skeptical folks. Be reasonable and friendly and you might end up getting more legal access. Crazy conspiracy theories seldom work in the court of public opinion.

    -Walt
    Agreed. And lets not forget that you don't need police/rangers to get all up in your business, anyone who may object to your access can cause headaches for you. Those of us old enough can remember when mountain bikes first hit the scene and the reaction from the equestrian community was "not on my trails, never ever" and there were many fights for access. My unfounded hope is that e-mtb's (Class 1) will be like snowboards, gradual acceptance based on popularity and increased market share of recreational dollars spent. Again I'm old enough to remember when many ski resorts banned snow boards as being far too dangerous to be on the same hill as normal skiers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zinfan View Post
    Again I'm old enough to remember when many ski resorts banned snow boards as being far too dangerous to be on the same hill as normal skiers.
    Back in the early days of the internet with newsgroups instead of web forums, the snowboard vs. skier debates looked *exactly* like the MTB vs. eMTB debates we are seeing right now. You could probably take some of those debates and change "Ski" to "MTB" and "Snowboard" to "eMTB".

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    Quote Originally Posted by honkinunit View Post
    Back in the early days of the internet with newsgroups instead of web forums, the snowboard vs. skier debates looked *exactly* like the MTB vs. eMTB debates we are seeing right now. You could probably take some of those debates and change "Ski" to "MTB" and "Snowboard" to "eMTB".
    More like Ski vs Snowmobile. Cuz motor, obviously.
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    More like Ski vs Snowmobile. Cuz motor, obviously.
    LMAO. You have no clue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by honkinunit View Post
    Back in the early days of the internet with newsgroups instead of web forums, the snowboard vs. skier debates looked *exactly* like the MTB vs. eMTB debates we are seeing right now. You could probably take some of those debates and change "Ski" to "MTB" and "Snowboard" to "eMTB".
    Yep. it's so similar it's scary. "snowboard are going so fast downhill they are going to increase the accident rate!" "Snowboard are going to scrap the snow off the mountains!" " It's a SKI hill not a SNOWBOARD hill!" " National forest lease will not be renewed because of the damages the snowboard are going to inflict to the mountains!"

    Same stuff.

    And if we go further back, this is the same thing I heard about windsurfing vs surfing....

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    Last time I checked, snowboards didn't have a motor.

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    Not really, nobody is going uphill! Fear of the unknown and fear of change is whatís on the table.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tahoebeau View Post
    You should probably spend some more time on ebikes because you seem to be very confused about how power output and motor watt ratings work and have shown you donít understand what your talking about on several occasions. For example, the Levo has a 250w rated motor, not 530w.

    So, are you advocating for a 530watt rated motor or a 250 watts rated motor?
    Apparently I read the info wrong on the Levo. My bad. So I stand corrected. Iím advocating for 250watt eMTBís.

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    Quote Originally Posted by leeboh View Post
    No hate here. I may even get one, for the commute. Great for cargo bikes as well. Great for that alternative to the car for transportation. Do they belong on multi use trails that's for non motorized use only? No, imho. Not allowed in MA where I ride. Ride legal, no issues. When you say stuff like e bikes are inevitable? That's something else. And recognize that the US is not the EU, not in norms ,customs or laws. They are not motorcycles, nor are they bikes either. And as to watts and power? There are no limits or rules, really once they are on the trails. Sure they might come from a factory and have a sticker that say X, but how do you tell them apart? Really.
    Honest question. Have you ever ridden a Levo or something similar?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Linktung View Post
    The US isn't like the EU in that we have the Right To Travel which they do not. That means the restrictions imposed by the land managers are unconstitutional. You can easily win any court case where a land manager is discriminating against personal choice of vehicle that has been deemed a right by the Supreme Court. The CPSC has on record that any assisted bike at 750 watts or less is a bicycle, and it would take an (unconstitutional) act of Congress to reverse that decision.

    There is very little visual distinction between an assisted bike and an unassisted bike and very few law enforcement agents willing to stick their nose that far up people's butts over something so trivial. You would also have to find a judge willing to support the decision. The downside is that on the surface assisted bikes appear to be illegal and authoritarian jerks ignorant of the Constitution feel like it is okay to harass pedelecs in the wild or on the internet.
    Please tell me you aren't serious. You need to really read up on all of that and how much it DOESNT apply here.

    Just like the 750w rule is 1 of many stipulations. I believe if it exceeds 25mph (which I know in Illinois the 25mph rule does apply on road) under power from the motor only it doesnt apply.

    Secondly as walt and such pointed out that applies to public access paved roads. DOT does not regulate bike paths. That's down to state, county, and city to determine what they allow. Also DOT has absolutely nothing to do with trails, access roads and so on. All of that access is purely determined by the land managers whether that's an individual person or the USFS and anything in between.

    What so many hardcore pro-ebike people cant seem to understand is one very basic undeniable FACT: ebikes have a motor. Period. And many trails have signs that say "No motorized vehicles allowed". End of story.

    Now that said I am NOT against ebikes. Not the pedal assist ones like the Levo. They are of zero issue to trails. The rest above those have no place on trails due to power and that they are no longer human powered.

    But fact of the matter is this debate is beating a dead horse and the extremes of both sides are doing nothing but making matters worse not better. Pedal assist. OEM type ebikes are of 0 threat and cause no issues for anyone except some feel their manhood is challenged.

    Just like plenty of ebike owners think they should be allowed to have an electric dirt bike with pedals that do nothing truly useful and capable of 50mph should be ok on bicycle/multiuse trails. And as Waly has shared in the past from watching it happen, are the big problem with access for those with lower power and true pedal assist.

    But carrying the attitude like this of an un-educated "its unconsitutional" point of view will only cause problems for gaining even the most basic ebike access.

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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    More like Ski vs Snowmobile. Cuz motor, obviously.
    No. This really is exactly like the old ski vs snowboard crap. And if we can learn anything from history then the eMTB will eventually find access just about everywhere. I remember the resorts pushing back against the snowboard at their resorts. That only lasted so long, with the popularity of the snowboard, the resorts could only say no for so long. Eventually the resorts had to give in.

    I could be wrong but I think Aspen was the last US resort to not allow snowboards. That stuffy Aspen mentality really reminds me of the anti ebike crowd. I remember hearing the arguments from the old farts that snowboarders are only going to cause problems, collisions will occur because the young crowd will be riding too fast and their wreckless behavior will lead to injuries. Today, Aspen holds the X Games. Funny how things change over time.

    Hereís an interesting article.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2001/04/02/u...ain-slope.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by ALimon View Post
    Honest question. Have you ever ridden a Levo or something similar?
    Not that it matters, no place legal to ride within 75 miles of me. Rode a haibike 500 watt? Hub motor. Way heavy, put it up to max power, hit 25 mph scary fast on a dirt road. Lots of MA has rocks, roots and logs, way too heavy to bunny hop or loft the front wheel over a log or up a ledge. And rode one of those trek commuters that go 28 mph.

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    Quote Originally Posted by leeboh View Post
    Not that it matters, no place legal to ride within 75 miles of me. Rode a haibike 500 watt? Hub motor. Way heavy, put it up to max power, hit 25 mph scary fast on a dirt road. Lots of MA has rocks, roots and logs, way too heavy to bunny hop or loft the front wheel over a log or up a ledge. And rode one of those trek commuters that go 28 mph.
    Ride a Levo if you get a chance. Oh and It does matter, if you havenít ridden one, then you have no contrast in your argument. So cal has some rocky terrain, I had no problem navigating some gnarly sections. Hard to argue about something youíve never ridden

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    Quote Originally Posted by ALimon View Post
    No. This really is exactly like the old ski vs snowboard crap. And if we can learn anything from history then the eMTB will eventually find access just about everywhere. I remember the resorts pushing back against the snowboard at their resorts. That only lasted so long, with the popularity of the snowboard, the resorts could only say no for so long. Eventually the resorts had to give in.

    I could be wrong but I think Aspen was the last US resort to not allow snowboards. That stuffy Aspen mentality really reminds me of the anti ebike crowd. I remember hearing the arguments from the old farts that snowboarders are only going to cause problems, collisions will occur because the young crowd will be riding too fast and their wreckless behavior will lead to injuries. Today, Aspen holds the X Games. Funny how things change over time.

    Hereís an interesting article.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2001/04/02/u...ain-slope.html
    Just FYI, both Alta and Deer Valley here in UT don't allow snowboards.

    I think there are similarities with the snowboard debate (lots of unfounded fears) but there are also some crucial differences, in that the snowboarders were going the same direction (downhill) at about the same speed/potential speed.

    E-bikes have the potential to change how riders ride - especially in terms of uphill speed. They also have the *potential* to be modified (or simply built with illegal specs) without much way for LMs to keep those bikes off. I know *personally* of some quad racer guys who feel that e-bikes basically mean it's open season on the trails for anyone with an electric motor.

    Those are, of course, *potential* problems, not actual ones, yet. Snowboarders showed that they could safely and responsibly share the mountain with skiers, and I think it's quite possible that e-bikers will show the same. It's also possible that due to the total lack of enforcement of manufacturing standards/general need for speed, that a few bad apples will wreck it for everyone.

    I don't think we'll really know for another decade, though.

    -Walt

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    Quote Originally Posted by ALimon View Post
    No. This really is exactly like the old ski vs snowboard crap.
    Nah...that's more like all the stuffy XC guys harping about DHers and 'endurobros', which you see going on around here constantly.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ALimon View Post
    Ride a Levo if you get a chance. Oh and It does matter, if you havenít ridden one, then you have no contrast in your argument. So cal has some rocky terrain, I had no problem navigating some gnarly sections. Hard to argue about something youíve never ridden
    Umm, did you not get the part about no legal riding within 75 miles of my house? I literally can ride all day in 3 directions from my driveway with some short pave connections North of Boston. Not buying one. Doesn't matter what I test ride, dude. It's not an argument. Bikes don't have motor. Fact. Rocky terrain? You have not a clue as what " trails" are like here. Lynn Woods, Harold Parker, humbling. You have to loft your front wheel 1 foot 20-30 times on a 2 or 3 hr ride?

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    Quote Originally Posted by leeboh View Post
    Umm, did you not get the part about no legal riding within 75 miles of my house? I literally can ride all day in 3 directions from my driveway with some short pave connections North of Boston. Not buying one. Doesn't matter what I test ride, dude. It's not an argument. Bikes don't have motor. Fact. Rocky terrain? You have not a clue as what " trails" are like here. Lynn Woods, Harold Parker, humbling. You have to loft your front wheel 1 foot 20-30 times on a 2 or 3 hr ride?

    Ummmi I didnít realize you never travel more than 75 miles from your house. That could explain your narrow mindedness. There is more riding in the world other than Lynn woods and Harold Parker, much better riding!

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    Quote Originally Posted by leeboh View Post
    Bikes don't have motor. Fact.
    Hardly a fact Considering that ebikes are the ONLY growing segment of the bike industry worldwide.

    https://www.persistencemarketresearc...ors-market.asp

    It's your choice to ride one or not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ruthabagah View Post
    Hardly a fact Considering that ebikes are the ONLY growing segment of the bike industry worldwide.

    https://www.persistencemarketresearc...ors-market.asp

    It's your choice to ride one or not.
    This link sums up the market research quoted above.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6LOWKVq5sQ
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    Quote Originally Posted by ALimon View Post
    Ummmi I didnít realize you never travel more than 75 miles from your house. That could explain your narrow mindedness. There is more riding in the world other than Lynn woods and Harold Parker, much better riding!
    You've been to those areas? One would have to pedal them, no motors allowed. I have trails 200 yds from my driveway. I ride there all the time, wouldn't you?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ruthabagah View Post
    Hardly a fact Considering that ebikes are the ONLY growing segment of the bike industry worldwide.

    https://www.persistencemarketresearc...ors-market.asp

    It's your choice to ride one or not.
    Sure, just not legal on the trails I ride. Mt biking, commuting and road riding are really big in the Boston area, guess all the bike shops are just selling what?

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    Quote Originally Posted by leeboh View Post
    Sure, just not legal on the trails I ride. Mt biking, commuting and road riding are really big in the Boston area, guess all the bike shops are just selling what?
    It's only a matter of times before the law change and is adapted to the need of the people. I'll give it 2 years at most.

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    Quote Originally Posted by honkinunit View Post
    LMAO. You have no clue.
    Talk about not having a clue. Most ski resorts were losing money at that time, skiing was dying out in a lot of the US. Snowboarders came along with money to save the resorts. Not going to happen with ebikes. Nice try though

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    I could be wrong, but I think the bike industry is a little solvent at the moment. Next cash cow?
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    Quote Originally Posted by leeboh View Post
    You've been to those areas? One would have to pedal them, no motors allowed. I have trails 200 yds from my driveway. I ride there all the time, wouldn't you?
    Of course I would. All Iím saying is open up your mind a bit. Just because a Levo doesnít fit your application or trail conditions doesnít mean itís not a worthy bike or doesnít deserve some trail access. But seriously, itís really hard to argue against something if youíve never experienced it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ruthabagah View Post
    It's only a matter of times before the law change and is adapted to the need of the people. I'll give it 2 years at most.
    All the laws in all the state and federal agencies, they move so fast on stuff. Wager is what? Brews, some of my home made bacon? MA has so many conservation areas, all prohibit motorized vehicles. State parks too. Start there. Adapted to the old and lazy? Not. There is no need. Just wants, thats different.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sfgiantsfan View Post
    Talk about not having a clue. Most ski resorts were losing money at that time, skiing was dying out in a lot of the US. Snowboarders came along with money to save the resorts. Not going to happen with ebikes. Nice try though

    https://www.nytimes.com/1997/12/22/u...d-bad-boy.html
    You must not know anyone in the bicycle business. Sales are lackluster and have been for several years. eBikes are keeping the doors open. Go watch the interview with the head of Pivot. 70% of their high end MTB sales in Europe are now coming from one model - the Shuttle.

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    Lack of education and proliferation of myths seems to spoil progression in many industries, not only the bicycle industry.

    Despite all the engineering and testing suppliers do during development, suppliers don't really do much to address the problem. Maybe someone can take a page out of Santa Cruz's book with that viral carbon fiber testing video thing, and apply it to this. Not sure how they'd address how people seem to be stuck on their own seemingly "rational" principles and not being open (e.g. anti-motor mostly based on principle).

    Beware the scarcity mindset...

    Personally, I'd love to ditch the habit of upgraditis and having bikes end up being over $5k, just to make the bike climb and accelerate a bit snappier, and still not have strength/durability as high as I like. If I ran these solutions to flat tires (tougher casing, tire inserts), my bike would be so slow. Pedal-assist sound appealing to me at that point, and if they can make it indistinguishable from a typical mtb, I'd be sold. Would love to replace shuttling with self-shuttle, not only to the top of the trail, but also to the trailhead itself, as long as it's within the battery's range; 15 mi each way + 15 mi of trail riding sounds doable with pedal assist. That and I'll have less excuses for going out, such as being too tired (to keep up with others).

    Whatever the land managers decide, I'll go with it. Trail access is the main thing holding back my purchase decision. I already got a mtb in case they deem it no good, but I see a lot of positives with pedal assist. Looking forward to a Canyon Spectral:ON in the US.

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    Quote Originally Posted by leeboh View Post
    Adapted to the old and lazy?
    Typical over characterization of a feeble mind.... In the meantime, I'll be riding my ebike tonight for another 20 miles outside of Denver. Just like all the old and lazy people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by leeboh View Post
    All the laws in all the state and federal agencies, they move so fast on stuff. Wager is what? Brews, some of my home made bacon? MA has so many conservation areas, all prohibit motorized vehicles. State parks too. Start there. Adapted to the old and lazy? Not. There is no need. Just wants, thats different.
    Nothing really changes in MA. Last time I was there it felt like I took a time travel back in time. CA will lead the change. We always do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ruthabagah View Post
    It's only a matter of times before the law change and is adapted to the need of the people. I'll give it 2 years at most.
    I totally agree. As the demographics change so will the laws.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ALimon View Post
    Nothing really changes in MA. Last time I was there it felt like I took a time travel back in time. CA will lead the change. We always do.
    Well yes, it was the start of this country, the revolution and stuff. So it is a bit of history, CA thats just left over Mexico stuff. CA is the test case, we'll see how that shakes out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ruthabagah View Post
    It's only a matter of times before the law change and is adapted to the need of the people. I'll give it 2 years at most.
    Need? Hmmm. Everyone is now a couch potato? Or a chain smoker. Everyone needs a motor? Interesting. Just keep clicking your heels.

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    Quote Originally Posted by leeboh View Post
    Need? Hmmm. Everyone is now a couch potato? Or a chain smoker. Everyone needs a motor? Interesting. Just keep clicking your heels.
    But you need to look at Euro market trends as well. Not only is Pivot seeing 70% of high end buyers deciding on the Shuttle the owner also states that sales of all mtb's of >$4000 are increasingly going towards emtb's. Are you saying all those Euro's are couch potato's or smokers? Not everyone needs a motor but some people find enjoyment and enhanced riding from having one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by leeboh View Post
    Need? Hmmm. Everyone is now a couch potato? Or a chain smoker. Everyone needs a motor? Interesting. Just keep clicking your heels.
    Typical over characterization .... I am repeating this to you, since you posted the same baseless comment on the same page 4 post ago.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ALimon View Post
    No. This really is exactly like the old ski vs snowboard crap. And if we can learn anything from history then the eMTB will eventually find access just about everywhere. I remember the resorts pushing back against the snowboard at their resorts. That only lasted so long, with the popularity of the snowboard, the resorts could only say no for so long. Eventually the resorts had to give in.

    I could be wrong but I think Aspen was the last US resort to not allow snowboards. That stuffy Aspen mentality really reminds me of the anti ebike crowd. I remember hearing the arguments from the old farts that snowboarders are only going to cause problems, collisions will occur because the young crowd will be riding too fast and their wreckless behavior will lead to injuries. Today, Aspen holds the X Games. Funny how things change over time.

    Hereís an interesting article.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2001/04/02/u...ain-slope.html
    You're talking about "pay to play" places with the resorts. They realized that snowboards were another revenue stream, the challenge was not to piss off the skiers. Most mountain biking is not pay to play, there is no incentive for the land managers to allow ebikes, only potential headaches. Except for pay to play downhill lifts/shuttles trails; emtbs are more likely to be accepted there where they can be charged a pass but won't clog the lifts.
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    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    You're talking about "pay to play" places with the resorts. They realized that snowboards were another revenue stream, the challenge was not to piss off the skiers. Most mountain biking is not pay to play, there is no incentive for the land managers to allow ebikes, only potential headaches. Except for pay to play downhill lifts/shuttles trails; emtbs are more likely to be accepted there where they can be charged a pass but won't clog the lifts.
    But the bike companies and bike shops would love to have another revenue stream and thus could provide resources for admitting emtb's on the trail. I'm not trying to change anyone's mind (it's the internet so even if I wanted to try it would be futile I feel) but as a emtb user I'd like market forces to move towards allowing more access (again Class 1 only). Time of course will tell. btw Mammoth Mountain has started to allow emtb's on their trails and I will watch to see if they develop some uphill trails that are designed for emtb use for the most part.

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    I say letís turn it up a speed or 2. Why not? Letís adapt to more speed. I know, blah blah blah. Same ole may be getting old? Letís climb twice the speed. Huey Lewis ď I want a new drugĒ ďSomeĒ mtbrs that have been riding for awhile might feel the same. Although may not set well with other Trail users. What Speshy and the others should do is fund major emtb trails. Theyíd be the first to start and gain respect and sales. JMO.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    I say letís turn it up a speed or 2. Why not? Letís adapt to more speed. I know, blah blah blah. Same ole may be getting old? Letís climb twice the speed. Huey Lewis ď I want a new drugĒ ďSomeĒ mtbrs that have been riding for awhile might feel the same. Although may not set well with other Trail users. What Speshy and the others should do is fund major emtb trails. Theyíd be the first to start and gain respect and sales. JMO.
    Tough thing about that is, it's not just the money, or the physical act of building the trail, it's the time spent doing the advocacy work and jumping through all the hoops that need to be jumped through. You need people that are willing to put in that time, preferably ones with a good bit of similar experience. You're best bet is of course going to be mountain bikers. But most people with a lot of experience creating MTB trails are very familiar with how important the "human powered" and "passive recreation" angle is when it comes to access and probably aren't typically going to go out of their way to spend a ton of time fighting for emtb access.
    If emtbs are ever going to go anywhere around here (I'm also in MA, but unlike Lee, I get to ride any vehicle I want right from my yard), there would have to be a serious grass-roots advocacy movement. That's what worked for MTBers; there's no reason it couldn't work for eMTBers too if they put in the time and effort to make it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    Tough thing about that is, it's not just the money, or the physical act of building the trail, it's the time spent doing the advocacy work and jumping through all the hoops that need to be jumped through. You need people that are willing to put in that time, preferably ones with a good bit of similar experience. You're best bet is of course going to be mountain bikers. But most people with a lot of experience creating MTB trails are very familiar with how important the "human powered" and "passive recreation" angle is when it comes to access and probably aren't typically going to go out of their way to spend a ton of time fighting for emtb access.
    If emtbs are ever going to go anywhere around here (I'm also in MA, but unlike Lee, I get to ride any vehicle I want right from my yard), there would have to be a serious grass-roots advocacy movement. That's what worked for MTBers; there's no reason it couldn't work for eMTBers too if they put in the time and effort to make it.
    Why would they go to all that trouble when they can just wait two years and they will be granted access with no effort?
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    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    Why would they go to all that trouble when they can just wait two years and they will be granted access with no effort?
    Yeah, I don't think the plan of waiting on either a)"The Industry" of b)"Other People" (ie MTBers) to take care of everything is going to pan out very well. I know it won't work here. Maybe in CA.
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    I think the industry will do most of the work because they have the most to gain.
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    I think the industry will do most of the work because they have the most to gain.
    Based on past experience? In New England, support has been slim, to say the least. Most of the bike makers are West coast? Some race support, events and such sure. Actual trail building/funding/support?

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    Quote Originally Posted by leeboh View Post
    Actual trail building/funding/support?
    Legislation. Time will tell.
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    We get a lot of support from breweries, REI, and local bike industries.
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    I think the industry will do most of the work because they have the most to gain.
    A few companies might throw a little money around here and there, bit as far as actually doing enough work to make something happen? Never have, never will. Their singular motive (their own profit) isn't going to hold much sway when it comes to LMs IME.
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    Mtbing brings in major revenue here. Emtb trails would do the same.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    We get a lot of support from breweries, REI, and local bike industries.
    Can you quantify "a lot"?
    We get some support from the same, but a few cases of beer, some trail tools and a discount on parts isn't the same as putting in hundreds and hundreds of hours "in the trenches" trying to get rules changed. You will need many very dedicated volunteers to make anything substantive happen. So far, that grassroots advocacy (actual advocacy, not just internet ramblings) just isn't something that appear to be happening. Nobody is stepping up, at least that I can tell.
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    A few companies might throw a little money around here and there, bit as far as actually doing enough work to make something happen? Never have, never will. Their singular motive (their own profit) isn't going to hold much sway when it comes to LMs IME.

    We're all only guessing, I just threw out mine. If the industry wins in Washington they won't have to talk to any land managers. Like I said, time will tell.
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    We're all only guessing, I just threw out mine. If the industry wins in Washington they won't have to talk to any land managers. Like I said, time will tell.
    I guess that could affect parts of the country with lots trails on federal land.
    Doesn't seem it would change anything in areas that don't such as the northeast.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    We get a lot of support from breweries, REI, and local bike industries.
    We too get some support from REI, but thats just trail grant money. Great yes, but not actual the planning, design, meeting with 3 conservation commissions, scouting, flagging, meeting with a pro trail builder, or actual construction.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Walt View Post
    Not at all - I was in great control and had plenty of time to react to/stop for normal uphill traffic (whether hikers or horses or bikes). Even at a careful, controlled speed - it was dangerous *for everyone involved*.

    That's not good (or fun) for anyone. On a flatter trail, you could have e-bike vs. e-bike at 40mph closing speed. Erm... not a lot of land managers are going to be happy about that idea.

    Closing speed is the #1 problem on MUTs. Period. Ask any land manager you want about this and you'll get the same answer. Bikes going slow on the climbs is quite literally the only reason they are tolerated in many places - hikers and other users can plan ahead for where and from what direction they will encounter mountain bikes descending, and expect that everywhere else, they'll be not much faster than a trail runner.

    As I said, not all trails have sight line problems or 2-way traffic (or non-bike traffic). But many do. You can't add speed and expect no consequences.

    -Walt

    Walt,

    You are a good poster and I'm sure a very nice guy. But I disagree with your point. If closing speed was really a concern, you can't restrict one term of that equation while ignoring the other. You claim a difference of 7mph between MTB and eBikes for climbing (seems arbitrary, but OK). However, you fail to recognize that there can be a much greater disparity is speeds for downhill riders. As mentioned before, rider responsibility has to come into play here.

    By virtue of your arguments, we should not allow cars with more than 300hp on the road because they go too fast. But we see that just isn't true. You simply can't regulate behavior by regulating equipment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post
    Land managers have long ago learned that they have to manage for the lowest common demoninator. So, sure, there are idiots on mtbs that ride too fast in every possible scenario, which on a mtb is mostly on descents, since you're limited by how fit you are everywhere else. Providing more power via a motor simply increases the number of riders who are now able to ride faster in more situations, allowing more idiots to ride faster in the wrong places. Ofc, not everyone is an idiot, but that's not who creates problems for the LM's.

    If you don't think adding a few miles per hour to closing speeds is an issue, would you rather walk around a corner and into another walker, or run around a corner into another runner? There's only about a 5mph difference between walking and running speeds.
    Wow... I really disagree with this. Land managers are government bureaucrats. Most of them have no idea what an eBike is. They aren't the all knowing, wise arbiters you make them out to be. They are simply whipping boys that get beaten over the head constantly by opposing forces. Greenie/bunny huggers would have trails closed for all types of vehicles. OHVers would have the land unrestricted. And MTBers lie in the middle. So, the truth is, land managers respond to the group that is the loudest and will cause them the most grief. Given the exploding popularity of eBikes, guess which group's voice is going to get louder.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post
    You're way behind the curve and should do some research. The laws we're discussing are being written with PAS ebikes (along with throttles) specifically in mind, and to classify them as no longer motor vehicles. If effect, a new classification. Which forces land managers to evaluate what the laws allow, which is not just a 250w PAS ebike, but a 750w ebike. No one with any decision making powers that I know of confuses ebikes with motorcycles, but neither do they equate a 250w ebike with a 750w one. Or a bicycle for that matter.

    If you think 750 emtbs are OK on mtb trails, have at it, because that's what you are advocating for.
    The problem with your 250W vs 750W argument is that it is arbitrary and it throw out the baby with the bath water. "I rode a 750W eBike one time that belonged to my cousin and that's way too much power!" This is not a way to advocate regulation.

    I'd be thrilled if BLM/NFS did an real and honest evaluation of eBikes and created regulations based on facts vice arbitrary speculation or previous regulations that was created to govern OHVs.

    Interestingly, I see that BLM and NFS claim to ban eBikes (based on OHV regulations), but they don't give any justification for the bans (i.e. safety, environmental impact, etc). They are just as arbitrary as you are being.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_bo View Post
    The problem with your 250W vs 750W argument is that it is arbitrary and it throw out the baby with the bath water. "I rode a 750W eBike one time that belonged to my cousin and that's way too much power!" This is not a way to advocate regulation.

    I'd be thrilled if BLM/NFS did an real and honest evaluation of eBikes and created regulations based on facts vice arbitrary speculation or previous regulations that was created to govern OHVs.

    Interestingly, I see that BLM and NFS claim to ban eBikes (based on OHV regulations), but they don't give any justification for the bans (i.e. safety, environmental impact, etc). They are just as arbitrary as you are being.
    Don't you think the land managers and rangers have sooo many other thing to do besides care about 1 more motorized vehicle? There are already rules and regs for motorized vehicles. Seems the e bikers need to do some of their own work ? Loud e bike voices? Like on some random interweb page? How about the mt bikers background of 25 + years of meetings, lobbying, gathering support and organizing the group to show up and do trail work? At least that's how it works here in New England. Good luck getting your voice heard. Really. Sit down at a meeting with some Sierra club, AMC or hiker group and explain to them its not really an ORV. Or some horsey folk.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_bo View Post
    Walt,

    You are a good poster and I'm sure a very nice guy. But I disagree with your point. If closing speed was really a concern, you can't restrict one term of that equation while ignoring the other. You claim a difference of 7mph between MTB and eBikes for climbing (seems arbitrary, but OK). However, you fail to recognize that there can be a much greater disparity is speeds for downhill riders. As mentioned before, rider responsibility has to come into play here.

    By virtue of your arguments, we should not allow cars with more than 300hp on the road because they go too fast. But we see that just isn't true. You simply can't regulate behavior by regulating equipment.
    By virtue of your argument we should allow 1k watt ebikes on trails and just trust people to ride slow?

    Closing speed is my biggest problem with them. I now have to expect some yahoo to come around a corner at 10-15 when usual speed in 3-5. Just because you are too tired, need a day off your regular bike or want to do 3 laps instead of one, I now have to slow my downhill speed to 5-7 instead of 15ish.

    On a one way trail or bike park, fire road, ride your moped all you want as far as I am concerned, just don't ruin two way single track trails by increasing closing speed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by leeboh View Post
    Don't you think the land managers and rangers have sooo many other thing to do besides care about 1 more motorized vehicle? There are already rules and regs for motorized vehicles. Seems the e bikers need to do some of their own work ? Loud e bike voices? Like on some random interweb page? How about the mt bikers background of 25 + years of meetings, lobbying, gathering support and organizing the group to show up and do trail work? At least that's how it works here in New England. Good luck getting your voice heard. Really. Sit down at a meeting with some Sierra club, AMC or hiker group and explain to them its not really an ORV. Or some horsey folk.
    Absolutely.

    ATV/Moto in the northeast is almost nonexistent, and those groups complain loudly and constantly about it.
    Mountain bikers actually DID something besides complaining. That's why we have tons and tons of trails and access. Working, not whining, is what gets results around here. Glad I live in a place where that's how things work.
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    Quote Originally Posted by leeboh View Post
    Don't you think the land managers and rangers have sooo many other thing to do besides care about 1 more motorized vehicle? There are already rules and regs for motorized vehicles. Seems the e bikers need to do some of their own work ? Loud e bike voices? Like on some random interweb page? How about the mt bikers background of 25 + years of meetings, lobbying, gathering support and organizing the group to show up and do trail work? At least that's how it works here in New England. Good luck getting your voice heard. Really. Sit down at a meeting with some Sierra club, AMC or hiker group and explain to them its not really an ORV. Or some horsey folk.
    I think you've done more to make my point than you realize. Thanks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sfgiantsfan View Post
    By virtue of your argument we should allow 1k watt ebikes on trails and just trust people to ride slow?

    Closing speed is my biggest problem with them. I now have to expect some yahoo to come around a corner at 10-15 when usual speed in 3-5. Just because you are too tired, need a day off your regular bike or want to do 3 laps instead of one, I now have to slow my downhill speed to 5-7 instead of 15ish.

    On a one way trail or bike park, fire road, ride your moped all you want as far as I am concerned, just don't ruin two way single track trails by increasing closing speed.
    You too have made my points very nicely. Thanks for your predictable zealotry based on little more than vitriol and conjecture.

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    Calling them mopeds or motorbikes is a narrow-minded viewpoint. A 125cc motorbike Has about 11Kw power, and theyíre crap and slow. An emtb has 20x less power than these wheezy things and canít operate with a throttle but theyíre still too fast? If the trail is too narrow so that closing speed is an issue it wouldnít be 2 way would it?

    Additionally, whatís to say someone canít just turn off (or say theyíve turned off the pedal assist) if someone complains about being on the trail?

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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    I think the industry will do most of the work because they have the most to gain.
    In the short term, the industry will have to do some heavy lifting. In the long term, I think the changing of demographics alone will be the single biggest influence for eMTBís
    Todayís youth, millennials are all growing up with e powered devices and most will own an ebike wether as a commuter or for trail riding. 5 years from now almost everyone will have an ebike in their garage, they will become the new norm Itís todayís generation that will be the next batch of land managers and law makers. So from that perspective, all the eMTB needs to gain access is time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ALimon View Post
    In the short term, the industry will have to do some heavy lifting. In the long term, I think the changing of demographics alone will be the single biggest influence for eMTBís
    Todayís youth, millennials are all growing up with e powered devices and most will own an ebike wether as a commuter or for trail riding. 5 years from now almost everyone will have an ebike in their garage, they will become the new norm Itís todayís generation that will be the next batch of land managers and law makers. So from that perspective, all the eMTB needs to gain access is time.
    I could not agree more. eBikes are coming. It's like arguing against a tidal wave. They will be here whether you want them or not.

    Those that argue so pointlessly against eBikes make me think of those who made similar arguments against snowboards, smartphones, and even horseless carriages.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_bo View Post
    You too have made my points very nicely. Thanks for your predictable zealotry based on little more than vitriol and conjecture.
    So are you saying that 1000w (or presumably any amount of watts) should be welcome too?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_bo View Post
    I think you've done more to make my point than you realize. Thanks.
    Cool. So when you form your own e bike advocay group and have a FB page, I promise to play nice. Cheers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_bo View Post
    Those that argue so pointlessly against eBikes make me think of those who made similar arguments against snowboards, smartphones, and even horseless carriages.

    The snowboard, smartphone or horseless carriage deals have nothing to do with the core argument against electric bikes on non-motorized trails, which of course is that some areas should be kept motor-free.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_bo View Post
    You too have made my points very nicely. Thanks for your predictable zealotry based on little more than vitriol and conjecture.
    There are rules regarding motorized vehicles on almost all public lands. Don't like the rules or how they are interpreted? Get active. But right now agree or disagree, thats how it goes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ALimon View Post
    In the short term, the industry will have to do some heavy lifting. In the long term, I think the changing of demographics alone will be the single biggest influence for eMTBís
    Todayís youth, millennials are all growing up with e powered devices and most will own an ebike wether as a commuter or for trail riding. 5 years from now almost everyone will have an ebike in their garage, they will become the new norm Itís todayís generation that will be the next batch of land managers and law makers. So from that perspective, all the eMTB needs to gain access is time.
    Just time is needed? Cool. Now to get you and them to look away from any screen for more than 30 seconds. My e bike video app, making some bucks. Sure, todays youth will be the next leaders, in 30 years. So the land grants, private land holdings, and state parks that currently prohibit motorized vehicles will just disappear? And no other trail users will voice concerns? I'll just wait. New England does stuff differently than lots of other places I guess. The same kids that aren't getting married, have huge college loans and can't afford to move out of moms house will just have 5-10K ? Cool.

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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    So are you saying that 1000w (or presumably any amount of watts) should be welcome too?
    I didn't say that, but it seems to be what you heard.

    I have said that eBikes should NOT be regulated as if they are an OHV. They are a completely different animal. I have said that eBikes, particularly class 1 eBikes are far closer to MTBs, so if they are to simply be thrown into a category for regulation purposes, it should be there.

    I have also said that eBikes should be treated as a separate niche as it really isn't a MTB nor is it an OHV. Instead, eBikes should have regulations that are based on actual data instead of arbitrary conjecture.

    I wonder if those who advocate for the eBike regulations based on arbitrary conjecture would also advocate for random regulations based on no data for things like guns, healthcare, traffic laws, zoning laws, etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pumpsmynads View Post
    Calling them mopeds or motorbikes is a narrow-minded viewpoint. A 125cc motorbike Has about 11Kw power, and theyíre crap and slow. An emtb has 20x less power than these wheezy things and canít operate with a throttle but theyíre still too fast? If the trail is too narrow so that closing speed is an issue it wouldnít be 2 way would it?

    Additionally, whatís to say someone canít just turn off (or say theyíve turned off the pedal assist) if someone complains about being on the trail?
    It's still a motorized vehicle on the trail.

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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    The snowboard, smartphone or horseless carriage deals have nothing to do with the core argument against electric bikes on non-motorized trails, which of course is that some areas should be kept motor-free.
    You miss the point that your "core argument" is little more than a "just becuz" argument. Your core argument is based on nothing substantial. It is as arbitrary and absurd as saying that some neighborhoods should just be kept white.

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    Quote Originally Posted by leeboh View Post
    It's still a motorized vehicle on the trail.
    By the legal definition, a class 1 eBike is not a motorized vehicle. This is despite the attempts of BLM and USFS to treat them as if they are all OHVs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_bo View Post
    By the legal definition, a class 1 eBike is not a motorized vehicle. This is despite the attempts of BLM and USFS to treat them as if they are all OHVs.
    What law, in what state and what court? Prove those fed agencies wrong. Wow, hmm, it has a motor. Start there. Seems like ya'll got some work to do. Please report back with your findings and rulings in your favor, really. Would like to know.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_bo View Post
    I didn't say that, but it seems to be what you heard.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_bo View Post
    You simply can't regulate behavior by regulating equipment.

    Then what is the point of class 1? Just like the on the road shouldn't power be unlimited? Responsible citizens will of course adhere to the rules and regulations

    Human power requires no regulations, some people will be faster than others but they are inherently limited.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_bo View Post
    You miss the point that your "core argument" is little more than a "just becuz" argument. Your core argument is based on nothing substantial. It is as arbitrary and absurd as saying that some neighborhoods should just be kept white.

    Wow. OK then.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_bo View Post
    I didn't say that, but it seems to be what you heard.

    I have said that eBikes should NOT be regulated as if they are an OHV. They are a completely different animal. I have said that eBikes, particularly class 1 eBikes are far closer to MTBs, so if they are to simply be thrown into a category for regulation purposes, it should be there.

    I have also said that eBikes should be treated as a separate niche as it really isn't a MTB nor is it an OHV. Instead, eBikes should have regulations that are based on actual data instead of arbitrary conjecture.

    I wonder if those who advocate for the eBike regulations based on arbitrary conjecture would also advocate for random regulations based on no data for things like guns, healthcare, traffic laws, zoning laws, etc.
    I actual get what you are saying. E bikes are a different animal. Maybe the platypus of the wheeled world? They have a motor, but kind of bike like, but not the same. This land manager, rule maker, supervisor has a giant stack of papers on his/her desk, underfunded, understaffed in forest fire season and high camping season. Give them a reason not to classify it as an ORV, do some studies. Don't chew out the rest of us because that's how the rules are currently interpreted. Do your own work, don't expect ( most) mt bikers or someone else to do it for you. Really not that hard, it's motorized. Regardless how anyone feels about it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ALimon View Post
    In the short term, the industry will have to do some heavy lifting. In the long term, I think the changing of demographics alone will be the single biggest influence for eMTBís
    Todayís youth, millennials are all growing up with e powered devices and most will own an ebike wether as a commuter or for trail riding. 5 years from now almost everyone will have an ebike in their garage, they will become the new norm Itís todayís generation that will be the next batch of land managers and law makers. So from that perspective, all the eMTB needs to gain access is time.
    This is the definition of talking out of your ass.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_bo View Post
    Wow... I really disagree with this. Land managers are government bureaucrats. Most of them have no idea what an eBike is. They aren't the all knowing, wise arbiters you make them out to be. They are simply whipping boys that get beaten over the head constantly by opposing forces. Greenie/bunny huggers would have trails closed for all types of vehicles. OHVers would have the land unrestricted. And MTBers lie in the middle. So, the truth is, land managers respond to the group that is the loudest and will cause them the most grief. Given the exploding popularity of eBikes, guess which group's voice is going to get louder.
    I base my opinions on my experience working with land managers, which is extensive, over a decade working with a multitude of agencies, local, state and Federal. Yesterday, I spend 6 hours hiking with various "bureaucrats" associated with Colorado State Parks evaluating a new trail to see about allowing mtbs on a section of it that is currently closed. Out of the 8 people there, 6 of them ride mtbs and all know what an ebike is. The notion that they sit in a cube somewhere, and make arbitrary decisions is laughable, you really don't have any idea of how land mangers operate. While the public has input, and especially stakeholders, I've never seen a land manager bow to public pressure for anything, they make decisions based on what they feel is in the best interest of the land they manage. That usually makes some people happy and some people unhappy.

    Looking at actual ebike sales, which are still miniscule in the US, it's going to be quite a while before they are organized enough to push for anything.

    The bike industry has far less clout with the people that actually make decisions about allowing ebike access than a lot of people give them credit for.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_bo View Post
    I didn't say that, but it seems to be what you heard.

    I have said that eBikes should NOT be regulated as if they are an OHV. They are a completely different animal. I have said that eBikes, particularly class 1 eBikes are far closer to MTBs, so if they are to simply be thrown into a category for regulation purposes, it should be there.

    I have also said that eBikes should be treated as a separate niche as it really isn't a MTB nor is it an OHV. Instead, eBikes should have regulations that are based on actual data instead of arbitrary conjecture.
    Agree completely.

    I'm not against ebikes, just against declaring them mountain bikes.
    That would be good for ebikers, but bad for mountain biking access.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_bo View Post
    You miss the point that your "core argument" is little more than a "just becuz" argument. Your core argument is based on nothing substantial. It is as arbitrary and absurd as saying that some neighborhoods should just be kept white.
    Surprise!!! The race card worms its way into this issue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_bo View Post
    The problem with your 250W vs 750W argument is that it is arbitrary and it throw out the baby with the bath water. "I rode a 750W eBike one time that belonged to my cousin and that's way too much power!" This is not a way to advocate regulation.

    I'd be thrilled if BLM/NFS did an real and honest evaluation of eBikes and created regulations based on facts vice arbitrary speculation or previous regulations that was created to govern OHVs.

    Interestingly, I see that BLM and NFS claim to ban eBikes (based on OHV regulations), but they don't give any justification for the bans (i.e. safety, environmental impact, etc). They are just as arbitrary as you are being.
    I don't know how the numbers of 250w and 750w were arrived at, they well could have been arbitrary. 750w is one HP, but it's not like that means anything. But, I'm not being arbitrary, those regulations are already in place, courtesy of Peopleforbikes, and land managers are forced to base their decisions on allowing access by how those laws allow defined an ebike. Like it or not, that's what happens in the real world. You can continue to dismiss it all, I really don't care, it's certainly amusing to watch you argue about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

    If you guys want to push for a new class that is 250w only, and have a few million bucks handy to pay for the associated legislation, or the ear of a friendly land manger, or want to take the feds to court, have at it. I'll keep working within the parameters that currently exist.

    You also obviously think I don't like ebikes, which is untrue, I really dislike that the industry is deliberately misleading land managers (and consumers/bike riders) that a 250w emtb is typical of what the laws would allow on their land, and that a 750w ebike is just a bike. If they were upfront about ebikes, funded studies to prove their point, worked to resolve issues LM's had with ebikes, I'd be fine with whatever a LM decided in the end.

  141. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by sfgiantsfan View Post
    This is the definition of talking out of your ass.
    The quality of your posts are astoundingly juvenile

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post
    Out of the 8 people there, 6 of them ride mtbs and all know what an ebike is. The notion that they sit in a cube somewhere, and make arbitrary decisions is laughable, you really don't have any idea of how land mangers operate.
    Most mountain bikers I see on the trails don't know anything about e-mtbs. I didn't. Until I bought an inexpensive trekking bike so I could meet friends for dinner and not be sweaty! Got a whole new perspective once I started riding it. And you won't get it by just test riding it around the block or up one hill. If one gets the chance, they need to have it for at least a whole day.

    I then went and bought a FS e-mtb. I now ride both my bikes. Look at this way, some days you want to go to the gym and work with 100+ lbs weights for an hour, while other days you wanna work with 20 lbs weights for 4 hours. Both are an excellent workout, but different.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post
    Looking at actual ebike sales, which are still miniscule in the US, it's going to be quite a while before they are organized enough to push for anything.

    The bike industry has far less clout with the people that actually make decisions about allowing ebike access than a lot of people give them credit for.
    100% agree. Cycling lobbying is almost non-existent due to lack of funds.

  143. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by ALimon View Post
    Todayís youth, millennials are all growing up with e powered devices and most will own an ebike wether as a commuter or for trail riding.
    "All" huh? Do you actually know or ride with any kids? I do, all the time.
    Mainly, they ride BMX bikes, with a smaller but still considerable number riding mountain bikes, and less riding road bikes.
    Out of hundreds and hundres of kids I've seen on bikes, I've yet to see one on a e-bike.

    Where exactly is it that you ride where every kid you run into is on an ebike?
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  144. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    We get a lot of support from breweries, REI, and local bike industries.
    When you say ďweĒ, who do you mean? Mountain bikes or ebikes?

  145. #145
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    This is where the 250w reg originates from:

    Name:  Screen Shot 2018-06-07 at 11.54.13 AM.png
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    It clearly states that 0.25KW, or 250w is the maximum amount of assist allowed. I would wager to say that while all the current manufacturers are sliding by using 250w as their shield, and while they are certainly capable of producing that number they also even in EU format exceed that figure by 2x at least.

    So all you Levo lovers that are hoping for a 250w limit may want to be careful what you are wishing for as it has been proven several times that under full power a Brose motor is closer to 700w.

    If the reason you want to lobby for the 250w limit is to put a damper on overall speed gain by using an e bike you would certainly achieve that goal by doing so.

    Here in the US the Federal 750w/20mph law has been on the books for many years and in reality better fits the current situation in regards to the mid drive motors on the market. So not really a big deal but the marketing subterfuge that surrounds the wattage figures and how it is helping to form legislation and getting lots of you here all riled up is a joke. On you.
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  146. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by ALimon View Post
    The quality of your posts are astoundingly juvenile
    Lets go with" all the e mt bike needs to gain access is time" 2 and 5 years were some. 10 might get you some slow change. Ever work with state or federal agencies with anything?

  147. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by leeboh View Post
    Lets go with" all the e mt bike needs to gain access is time" 2 and 5 years were some. 10 might get you some slow change. Ever work with state or federal agencies with anything?
    I have. Itís a nightmare. But you canít deny demographics change over time. Iíve spoken to land managers here in CA, and they have told me theyíre starting to look into pilot trails to see how they will co mingle with other trail users. They know whatís coming, and they know they need to have a plan in place sooner than later. CA also appears to be pushing ebikes harder than other states.

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    ^^^^Yup. Good luck with that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigwheel View Post
    This is where the 250w reg originates from:

    Name:  Screen Shot 2018-06-07 at 11.54.13 AM.png
Views: 276
Size:  44.2 KB

    It clearly states that 0.25KW, or 250w is the maximum amount of assist allowed. I would wager to say that while all the current manufacturers are sliding by using 250w as their shield, and while they are certainly capable of producing that number they also even in EU format exceed that figure by 2x at least.

    So all you Levo lovers that are hoping for a 250w limit may want to be careful what you are wishing for as it has been proven several times that under full power a Brose motor is closer to 700w.

    If the reason you want to lobby for the 250w limit is to put a damper on overall speed gain by using an e bike you would certainly achieve that goal by doing so.

    Here in the US the Federal 750w/20mph law has been on the books for many years and in reality better fits the current situation in regards to the mid drive motors on the market. So not really a big deal but the marketing subterfuge that surrounds the wattage figures and how it is helping to form legislation and getting lots of you here all riled up is a joke. On you.
    "Maximum continuous rated power of 0.25 kW" is different from full/peak power. Heat is a major limit on how much a motor can sustain continuously, hence why motors like the one found on Levos are rated 250 W nominal. The "maximum continuous rating (MCR)" is a general guideline regarding safe operating levels without damaging the motor under a range of various conditions, not just ideal conditions. Not going to go far with only a 500 Wh battery, if the motor's running 700 W continuous; are you imagining that it'd be going 20 MPH for 40 minutes worth of pedaling?

    Your other claims need citations.

    I'll add that the power assist levels are comparable to World Cup athletes, on a bike that's 2x as heavy as theirs. Might as well consider the motor to be "world-cup legs". Can't most healthy people do over 500W in a short 10 second burst? "Maximum power levels during one hour range from about 200 W ("healthy men") to 500 W (exceptionally athletic men)." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_performance

    I simply see it as raising the minimum speed of riding, on demand. You choose how much assist for your specific needs, whether it be just enough to casually hang out with fast friends, to help get you started on a ride in which you feel somewhat sluggish, or to help you recover in case you blew yourself up going too fast in the first 20 minutes of the ride.

  150. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by leeboh View Post
    ^^^^Yup. Good luck with that.

    Good luck with what?

  151. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbmb65 View Post
    When you say ďweĒ, who do you mean? Mountain bikes or ebikes?
    Mtbs.
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    Am I correct to understand that speed limits are 15mph? Iíve personally never seen a sign.
    Last edited by Gutch; 06-07-2018 at 05:15 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    Iím I correct to understand that speed limits are 15mph? Iíve personally never seen a sign.
    Where?

  154. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post
    Where?
    Singletrack nationwide?
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  155. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    Singletrack nationwide?
    There are a few places (usually city/state parks) that have an official speed limit, but 99% of the mountain bike trail mileage in the US doesn't have an official rule about speed. It's a safe/sane sort of situation. And obviously, there is basically zero enforcement (though there's that notorious case of a trail getting closed in CA based on Strava data) so even in places with a speed limit, it's essentially a free for all.

    Trails tend to just get closed to bikes if speeds become an issue - there aren't the resources to patrol for speeders most places.

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  156. #156
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    Speed limit in the NPS Park I ride is 10mph. Most of the other trails I ride are mtb trails with no speed limit.
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  157. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    Speed limit in the NPS Park I ride is 10mph.

    Does anyone adhere to that?
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  158. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Does anyone adhere to that?

    Of course not. And there goes the closing speed argument.

  159. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Does anyone adhere to that?
    I don't know, I don't have a computer on my bikes and I use Runkeeper, which doesn't show max speed. The trails are directional for bikes. Several of us have suggested signs encouraging foot traffic to travel in the opposite direction like the mtb trails in the area but at this time, foot traffic can go either way. I would bet the percentage of people in the area who would want these trails to be open to ebikes is very, very low.
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  160. #160
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    When they start dropping the motors in the downtubes, nobodyís going to know unless your radar gunning them, savvy consumer, or they cut open your frame. The point is that emtbs sooner or later will be out there and we wonít even know it. The ONLY way to stop the issue with wattage etc is an enforceable speed limit which nobody can afford or wants, because we all go too fast sometimes, idc what youíre riding. From what I was told emtbís are welcome at Bentonville AR the new destination hot spot. It amazes me we can have adults legally smoking weed in front of junior, but shit a brick when it comes to an electric motor! Wow, just wow.
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  161. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    When they start dropping the motors in the downtubes, nobodyís going to know unless your radar gunning them, savvy consumer, or they cut open your frame.

    I haven't seen many yet but the ones I have I've recognized from 100 yards away due to their unnatural speed. Humans power will always be inherently limited, so is electric power but the limits are much higher.
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  162. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    It amazes me we can have adults legally smoking weed in front of junior, but shit a brick when it comes to an electric motor! Wow, just wow.
    If I catch junior smoking weed, he's toast, but its going to happen someday. If I catch him on an ebike, I'm disowning him. I can't even fathom the shame that would bring to my family. I envision having to perform harikari.
    I would advise not taking my advice.

  163. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by watermonkey View Post
    If I catch junior smoking weed, he's toast, but its going to happen someday. If I catch him on an ebike, I'm disowning him. I can't even fathom the shame that would bring to my family. I envision having to perform harikari.
    Harikari? So glad Iím not a part of your family

  164. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    When they start dropping the motors in the downtubes, nobodyís going to know unless your radar gunning them, savvy consumer, or they cut open your frame. The point is that emtbs sooner or later will be out there and we wonít even know it. The ONLY way to stop the issue with wattage etc is an enforceable speed limit which nobody can afford or wants, because we all go too fast sometimes, idc what youíre riding. From what I was told emtbís are welcome at Bentonville AR the new destination hot spot. It amazes me we can have adults legally smoking weed in front of junior, but shit a brick when it comes to an electric motor! Wow, just wow.
    They already have down tube motors in the tour de farce. Check out some vids of those wheels spinning madly after a crash.

  165. #165
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    Maybe the next trend in mtb will be clear frames so all can see you're not hiding a motor.
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  166. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    When they start dropping the motors in the downtubes, nobodyís going to know unless your radar gunning them, savvy consumer, or they cut open your frame. The point is that emtbs sooner or later will be out there and we wonít even know it. The ONLY way to stop the issue with wattage etc is an enforceable speed limit which nobody can afford or wants, because we all go too fast sometimes, idc what youíre riding.
    So, ebikes will lead to speed limits everywhere? Awesome, sign me up!

  167. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post
    So, ebikes will lead to speed limits everywhere? Awesome, sign me up!
    Speed limits already exist everywhere. Itís called common sense. Itís not really an ebike issue as much as it is a personal behavior issue.

  168. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by ALimon View Post
    Speed limits already exist everywhere. Itís called common sense. Itís not really an ebike issue as much as it is a personal behavior issue.
    No speed limits on MA trails. Not so much in the way of big downhills either.

  169. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by leeboh View Post
    No speed limits on MA trails. Not so much in the way of big downhills either.
    You donít need to have big downhills in order to slow down around blind corners on a two way trail, which is essentially a speed limit.

  170. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by ALimon View Post
    You donít need to have big downhills in order to slow down around blind corners on a two way trail, which is essentially a speed limit.



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  171. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    Sketchy logic is sketchy.

    Nothing sketchy about my logic... on point as usual

  172. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    I haven't seen many yet but the ones I have I've recognized from 100 yards away due to their unnatural speed. Humans power will always be inherently limited, so is electric power but the limits are much higher.
    People I ride with play that game all the time while chilling at the top of climbs, guessing if the other riders have pedal-assist or not. My group has poor judgment--anyone going remotely fast, and doesn't look to be dressed like a XC racer, gets called out for pedal-assist. Brazen enough to tell the incoming rider that they look like they had a motor too, and most of them don't know how to respond to such a statement. You might expect them to be proud of their power, taking it as a complement, but instead more than half are defensive, as if they don't want to be witch-hunted by mistake.

    Hard to tell by bike bulkiness too. I was watching video coverage of World Cup DH top 3 qualifying at Leogang, and had to do research to figure out what Tracey Hannah was riding:

    Colorado land managers on e bikes-2018polygondhbike.jpg

    Video for context: https://www.redbull.com/int-en/video...ualifying-runs

    Heck, in a few rare cases, hikers wonder if the Yeti Switch Infinity was a motor or not.

    Colorado land managers on e bikes-926187d1411602483-yeti-sb5c-switch-infinity-img_2405.jpg

    The average mountain biker who wasn't exposed to this knowledge before will initially think that the Switch Infinity link is a set of extra shocks.

    Point is, hard to trust peoples' judgment if they're not properly educated on the subject matter that they're discussing. Would you correct these hikers and average mtbrs if you owned this Yeti? Is that not what ebike owners are doing? Think the difference is that people are getting too political about this, trying to protect their values from a changing world.

    I come here to learn. I instead learn how people just are terrible at sharing public space. I also learned how people are inclined to be discriminatory, drawing lines to segregate others based on common traits, and shaming all that fall under such categorization.

  173. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by karmaphi View Post
    Point is, hard to trust peoples' judgment if they're not properly educated on the subject matter that they're discussing. Would you correct these hikers and average mtbrs if you owned this Yeti? Is that not what ebike owners are doing? Think the difference is that people are getting too political about this, trying to protect their values from a changing world.
    I'm really not sure what you're saying. I was only pointing out the fact that I could tell when someone was on an e-bike even though they were too far away to see any details on the bike. Actually I didn't know they were electrified at first, I just noticed that there was something unnatural going on and then saw why when they passed by.
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  174. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    I'm really not sure what you're saying. I was only pointing out the fact that I could tell when someone was on an e-bike even though they were too far away to see any details on the bike. Actually I didn't know they were electrified at first, I just noticed that there was something unnatural going on and then saw why when they passed by.
    But unknowingly, you make a good point for those willing to share trails with eBikers.

    The argument here has consistently been that mtb trails should be for "human power only" bikes. So, if a person leaves the battery pack out of his class 1 pedal assist bike, clearly it is human powered only and should be readily accepted by everyone here. Would the anti-ebikes crowd propose battery checkpoints where LEOs conduct illegal internal searches of our bike frames? And would you advocate conducting those illegal searches because a rider is faster than you?

    One of the more popular arguments has been "land managers can't distinguish class 1 from class 3 bikes, so all electric bikes should be banned". But likewise, land managers may not be able to distinguish an eBike from a conventional mtb, so do we now advocate banning all mtbs?

    As I've said before, it is dangerous to ask that government regulate/ban only the things you don't like. Because government always over regulates and invariably ends up banning the things you do like.

  175. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_bo View Post
    But unknowingly, you make a good point for those willing to share trails with eBikers.

    The argument here has consistently been that mtb trails should be for "human power only" bikes. So, if a person leaves the battery pack out of his class 1 pedal assist bike, clearly it is human powered only and should be readily accepted by everyone here. Would the anti-ebikes crowd propose battery checkpoints where LEOs conduct illegal internal searches of our bike frames? And would you advocate conducting those illegal searches because a rider is faster than you?

    One of the more popular arguments has been "land managers can't distinguish class 1 from class 3 bikes, so all electric bikes should be banned". But likewise, land managers may not be able to distinguish an eBike from a conventional mtb, so do we now advocate banning all mtbs?

    As I've said before, it is dangerous to ask that government regulate/ban only the things you don't like. Because government always over regulates and invariably ends up banning the things you do like.


    I have no idea what that means either. I not asking the government to regulate or ban anything, just keep the rules as they are. I could care less if anyone pedals their electric bike without a battery but of course no one would actually do that.
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  176. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_bo View Post

    One of the more popular arguments has been "land managers can't distinguish class 1 from class 3 bikes, so all electric bikes should be banned". But likewise, land managers may not be able to distinguish an eBike from a conventional mtb, so do we now advocate banning all mtbs?
    Hey, now you're catching on; that's why a lot of us are concerned about ebikes on the trails.
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    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    Hey, now you're catching on; that's why a lot of us are concerned about ebikes on the trails.

    Pure selfishness?

    JB Weld also likes the ban on bikes in Wilderness.

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    Quote Originally Posted by karmaphi View Post
    People I ride with play that game all the time while chilling at the top of climbs, guessing if the other riders have pedal-assist or not. My group has poor judgment--anyone going remotely fast, and doesn't look to be dressed like a XC racer, gets called out for pedal-assist. Brazen enough to tell the incoming rider that they look like they had a motor too, and most of them don't know how to respond to such a statement. You might expect them to be proud of their power, taking it as a complement, but instead more than half are defensive, as if they don't want to be witch-hunted by mistake.

    Hard to tell by bike bulkiness too. I was watching video coverage of World Cup DH top 3 qualifying at Leogang, and had to do research to figure out what Tracey Hannah was riding:

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	2018PolygonDHBike.jpg 
Views:	27 
Size:	232.3 KB 
ID:	1203020

    Video for context: https://www.redbull.com/int-en/video...ualifying-runs

    Heck, in a few rare cases, hikers wonder if the Yeti Switch Infinity was a motor or not.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	926187d1411602483-yeti-sb5c-switch-infinity-img_2405.jpg 
Views:	28 
Size:	198.2 KB 
ID:	1203022

    The average mountain biker who wasn't exposed to this knowledge before will initially think that the Switch Infinity link is a set of extra shocks.

    Point is, hard to trust peoples' judgment if they're not properly educated on the subject matter that they're discussing. Would you correct these hikers and average mtbrs if you owned this Yeti? Is that not what ebike owners are doing? Think the difference is that people are getting too political about this, trying to protect their values from a changing world.

    I come here to learn. I instead learn how people just are terrible at sharing public space. I also learned how people are inclined to be discriminatory, drawing lines to segregate others based on common traits, and shaming all that fall under such categorization.
    The people who spend a lot of time in chat rooms are a bad cross section of the public. The folks who are better socially adjusted spend their free time talking to actual humans.

  179. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_bo View Post
    But unknowingly, you make a good point for those willing to share trails with eBikers.

    The argument here has consistently been that mtb trails should be for "human power only" bikes. So, if a person leaves the battery pack out of his class 1 pedal assist bike, clearly it is human powered only and should be readily accepted by everyone here. Would the anti-ebikes crowd propose battery checkpoints where LEOs conduct illegal internal searches of our bike frames? And would you advocate conducting those illegal searches because a rider is faster than you?

    One of the more popular arguments has been "land managers can't distinguish class 1 from class 3 bikes, so all electric bikes should be banned". But likewise, land managers may not be able to distinguish an eBike from a conventional mtb, so do we now advocate banning all mtbs?

    As I've said before, it is dangerous to ask that government regulate/ban only the things you don't like. Because government always over regulates and invariably ends up banning the things you do like.
    Convoluted much? How about just following the rules for motorized access? Change them if you don't like them. And yes that is the concern "we" have been voicing, getting mt bikes banned, cuz they are lumped in with e bikes.

  180. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_bo View Post
    But unknowingly, you make a good point for those willing to share trails with eBikers.

    The argument here has consistently been that mtb trails should be for "human power only" bikes. So, if a person leaves the battery pack out of his class 1 pedal assist bike, clearly it is human powered only and should be readily accepted by everyone here. Would the anti-ebikes crowd propose battery checkpoints where LEOs conduct illegal internal searches of our bike frames? And would you advocate conducting those illegal searches because a rider is faster than you?

    One of the more popular arguments has been "land managers can't distinguish class 1 from class 3 bikes, so all electric bikes should be banned". But likewise, land managers may not be able to distinguish an eBike from a conventional mtb, so do we now advocate banning all mtbs?

    As I've said before, it is dangerous to ask that government regulate/ban only the things you don't like. Because government always over regulates and invariably ends up banning the things you do like.




    But adding another layer of regulations that cover e-bikes is okay with the guy that fears overregulation. Mmmmkay.
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    Quote Originally Posted by leeboh View Post
    They already have down tube motors in the tour de farce. Check out some vids of those wheels spinning madly after a crash.
    except, that is purely untrue. it's a story from the 'Alex Jones' fringe

    otoh Ryder Hesjedal is a local here .. and he now rides an E-MTB

  182. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_bo View Post
    One of the more popular arguments has been "land managers can't distinguish class 1 from class 3 bikes, so all electric bikes should be banned". But likewise, land managers may not be able to distinguish an eBike from a conventional mtb, so do we now advocate banning all mtbs?
    This is in fact exactly what a lot of us are worried about - that e-bikes will be indistinguishable to the point that all bikes just get managed as motorized vehicles.

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  183. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by leeboh View Post
    Convoluted much? How about just following the rules for motorized access? Change them if you don't like them. And yes that is the concern "we" have been voicing, getting mt bikes banned, cuz they are lumped in with e bikes.
    Do you mean follow the rules as they are written, or follow the rules as you think they should have been written? Because as they are written, nothing prohibits class 1 ebikes from noon motorized trails in BLM and USFS trails.

  184. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walt View Post
    This is in fact exactly what a lot of us are worried about - that e-bikes will be indistinguishable to the point that all bikes just get managed as motorized vehicles.

    -Walt
    Then if you concede that ebikes may become indistinguishable from mtbs and that could pose a future threat to mtb access, doesn't it stand to reason that you should embrace the ebikes, in particular class 1, and advocate for their acceptance? You claim to have regular interactions with land managers, so you are in a position to directly influence the acceptance of class 1 bikes. But to just accept the "all electric bikes ban" without rebuttal seems like you accept mtb access restrictions are inevitable.

    You either advocate for the acceptance of class 1 ebikes, or you are complicit in the future restrictions of mtb access. You are not going to stop the wave of ebikes. But at least you could help ensure that wave does no damage to mtbs.

  185. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_bo View Post
    You either advocate for the acceptance of class 1 ebikes, or you are complicit in the future restrictions of mtb access. You are not going to stop the wave of ebikes. But at least you could help ensure that wave does no damage to mtbs.
    That's some pretty special reasoning there.

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  186. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by BCsaltchucker View Post
    except, that is purely untrue. it's a story from the 'Alex Jones' fringe

    otoh Ryder Hesjedal is a local here .. and he now rides an E-MTB
    Google is your friend. Try vivax, or down tube motors.

  187. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by leeboh View Post
    Google is your friend. Try vivax, or down tube motors.
    more silliness from you again?

    the simple truth is that illegal use of e-motors in pro races has never occurred. There was some amateur old-man idiot caught with one last year in an old man race in Italy. And there was an ebike found in the pits at a pro cyclocross race once, but never ridden in a race. There was some National-Engquirer level silly rumours that Ryder Hesjedal and Fabian Cancellara might have used a hidden motor in races, that was all purely unsubstantiated silliness. mountain out of a molehill to date

  188. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by BCsaltchucker View Post
    the simple truth is that illegal use of e-motors in pro races has never occurred.
    And even if it did, who GAF?
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  189. #189
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    Colorado land managers on e bikes-a61d5c33-0397-4fbd-8e13-fffef96ddf8b.jpgNothing to do with Ebikes, but this ones special for Leeboh. Never been opened!
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  190. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by BCsaltchucker View Post
    There was some National-Engquirer level silly rumours that Ryder Hesjedal and Fabian Cancellara might have used a hidden motor in races, that was all purely unsubstantiated silliness.

    Just like the silly epo rumors in the 90's? I kind of doubt motors have ever been used much in pro races but the fact that they scan for them and that the uci is requiring bikes to be equipped with devices that detect them suggests that it has been an issue.
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  191. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Just like the silly epo rumors in the 90's? I kind of doubt motors have ever been used much in pro races but the fact that they scan for them and that the uci is requiring bikes to be equipped with devices that detect them suggests that it has been an issue.
    Cheating has always been a part of competing. Itís been going on from the beginning of time. Now add millions of dollars and a touch of fame and you have the recipe for the ultimate reason to cheat.

    i raced professionally in Europe in the 90ís.... what a filthy era that was.

  192. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by ALimon View Post
    Cheating has always been a part of competing. Itís been going on from the beginning of time. Now add millions of dollars and a touch of fame and you have the recipe for the ultimate reason to cheat.

    You are preaching to the choir.
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  193. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    I also agree that 750w is overkill.
    For whom, the midget or the obese guy?

  194. #194
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    Both. I weigh 210 kitted and own a 250w and 750w. 250w could integrate a lot smoother into singletrack and other Trail users. JMO. A Levo will haul any weight around.
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  195. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_bo View Post
    Because as they are written, nothing prohibits class 1 ebikes from noon motorized trails in BLM and USFS trails.
    Well, I'm not familiar with any noon motorized trails, but on the non motorized trails I frequent, the motor is what consistently prohibits class 1 ebikes.

  196. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    Both. I weigh 210 kitted and own a 250w and 750w. 250w could integrate a lot smoother into singletrack and other Trail users. JMO. A Levo will haul any weight around.
    Agreed. I own a 750w bike. I weigh only 150, but the bike is over 80, even without a load on it (cargo bike). You can absolutely haul ass on it (though it's governed at 20mph) if you even vaguely put effort into pedaling.

    Now, maybe if you were truly morbidly obese or something, 250w wouldn't be enough. But for even pretty fat and lazy people it'll provide plenty of power to go have a fun day mountain biking.

    -Walt

  197. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walt View Post
    Agreed. I own a 750w bike. I weigh only 150, but the bike is over 80, even without a load on it (cargo bike). You can absolutely haul ass on it (though it's governed at 20mph) if you even vaguely put effort into pedaling.

    Now, maybe if you were truly morbidly obese or something, 250w wouldn't be enough. But for even pretty fat and lazy people it'll provide plenty of power to go have a fun day motor biking.

    -Walt
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  198. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_bo View Post
    Then if you concede that ebikes may become indistinguishable from mtbs and that could pose a future threat to mtb access, doesn't it stand to reason that you should embrace the ebikes, in particular class 1, and advocate for their acceptance? You claim to have regular interactions with land managers, so you are in a position to directly influence the acceptance of class 1 bikes. But to just accept the "all electric bikes ban" without rebuttal seems like you accept mtb access restrictions are inevitable.

    You either advocate for the acceptance of class 1 ebikes, or you are complicit in the future restrictions of mtb access. You are not going to stop the wave of ebikes. But at least you could help ensure that wave does no damage to mtbs.
    It's no wonder why there's such a disconnect between mtb advocates and ebikers.... Basically just grab them by the balls and tell the rest of us "ebikes are inevitable, just deal with it". At the same time failing to address all the issues that have been plaguing the discussion from the very beginning. Namely the potential of getting all bikes banned non motorized access trails.
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  199. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lemonaid View Post
    It's no wonder why there's such a disconnect between mtb advocates and ebikers.... Basically just grab them by the balls and tell the rest of us "ebikes are inevitable, just deal with it". At the same time failing to address all the issues that have been plaguing the discussion from the very beginning. Namely the potential of getting all bikes banned non motorized access trails.
    I think you miss the point. If ebikes are inevitable and ebikes will soon be indistinguishable from mtbs, then the way to ensure future mtb access is by embracing ebikes.


    So many people here justify banning all ebikes because it's hard to distinguish the classes of ebikes. By that same logic, once it's hard to distinguish an ebikes from an mtb, the knee jerk reaction may be to ban all mtbs as well.


    Be careful if the arguments you use to justify your biases. They could come back to bite you in the future.

  200. #200
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    I really confused as to what specifically it is that keep e-bike proponents from doing their own advocacy work.

    All I ever see is people insisting that mountain bikers take responsibility for e-bike advocacy. Is there something about e-bikers that renders them unable to fend for themselves? The level of entitlement is off the charts.
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