Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 100 of 149
  1. #1
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    360

    Are class 1 embts going away?

    So I see that the new Levo with the walk assist and shuttle mode make it so you no longer have to pedal to ride making the new Levo a class 2. I was wondering if you all think that this is the new direction for the embt industry?

    I personally am not interested in an ebike unless it has a throttle given that the only places to ride ebikes on singletrack where I live do not have any restrictions regarding the class. So no reason to not have the option to ride without pedaling. I do realize that the “throttle” on the new levo is pretty limited with a max speed of something like 5 mph, but the way the industry goes with more power every year I am sure that will increase steadily. Plus, if it is a class 2 anyways, why not make it so the throttle goes all the way up to the max speed limit of 20mph?

    *edit: added this vid so you can see ridding a Levo without pedaling using the walk assist throttle. This makes it a class 2 by definition of the law.

    Last edited by tahoebeau; 2 Weeks Ago at 12:31 PM. Reason: vid added

  2. #2
    Ride da mOOn Moderator
    Reputation: NEPMTBA's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    8,351
    I dont know that we need this. I ride e, and havent found a place for it to be used. I would hope that 5mph stays 5mph and doesnt ramp up. See where it goes from here.

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

  3. #3
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    36
    Quote Originally Posted by NEPMTBA View Post
    I dont know that we need this. I ride e, and havent found a place for it to be used. I would hope that 5mph stays 5mph and doesnt ramp up. See where it goes from here.

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
    I agree with this we do not need it I personally have no use for a throttle of any sort and we have enough problems with the anti ebike crowd seeing them as motorcycles if they start adding throttles I would agree with them

    Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

  4. #4
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    406
    The levo does not have a throttle. The walk assist is set at approximately 1mph. Class 1 is here to stay.

  5. #5
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2018
    Posts
    187
    Quote Originally Posted by Phantomtracer View Post
    The levo does not have a throttle. The walk assist is set at approximately 1mph. Class 1 is here to stay.
    The walk assist is not set at approximately 1mph.

    Name:  levo.JPG
Views: 472
Size:  14.8 KB

    It would be very hard to argue that the Levo with walk assist is Class 1.

    Most electric motor bicycle laws are similar to this:

    (1) A “class 1 electric bicycle,” or “low-speed pedal-assisted electric bicycle,” is a bicycle equipped with a motor that provides assistance only when the rider is pedaling, and that ceases to provide assistance when the bicycle reaches the speed of 20 miles per hour.
    (2) A “class 2 electric bicycle,” or “low-speed throttle-assisted electric bicycle,” is a bicycle equipped with a motor that may be used exclusively to propel the bicycle, and that is not capable of providing assistance when the bicycle reaches the speed of 20 miles per hour.

  6. #6
    Ride da mOOn Moderator
    Reputation: NEPMTBA's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    8,351
    That's how they got around it. "No throttle" Does it state the rider has to be actually riding the bike with walk assist, hum " walk assist"...

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

  7. #7
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    360
    Quote Originally Posted by Phantomtracer View Post
    The levo does not have a throttle. The walk assist is set at approximately 1mph. Class 1 is here to stay.
    Sure looks like a lot more than 1 mph in this video. First 10 seconds of the vid shows a Levo being ridden faster than 1mph without pedaling. No way to argue that is still a class 1.


  8. #8
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2018
    Posts
    187
    Quote Originally Posted by NEPMTBA View Post
    That's how they got around it. "No throttle" Does it state the rider has to be actually riding the bike with walk assist, hum " walk assist"...
    It can be argued that "walk assist" provides assistance when the rider isn't pedaling, making it Class 2.

    It can also be argued that "walk assist"uses a motor to exclusively propel the bicycle, making it Class 2.

    The physical throttle in this case is the + button which has to be held down to make the bike move without using the pedals.

  9. #9
    Moderator Moderator
    Reputation: Harryman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    2,457
    Quote Originally Posted by NEPMTBA View Post
    That's how they got around it. "No throttle" Does it state the rider has to be actually riding the bike with walk assist, hum " walk assist"...

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
    They didn't get around it, they're just ignoring it.

  10. #10
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    462
    Quote Originally Posted by harryman View Post
    they didn't get around it, they're just lobbying to have the law changed...and it will be b/c the "S" has lobbyists.
    fify...and that stinks!

  11. #11
    Moderator Moderator
    Reputation: Harryman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    2,457
    Their lobbyists wrote the laws to begin with, at this point, they're stuck with them. The reason they're pushing for only class 1 access on trails is that seeing someone pedal an emtb up a climb at 8 mph doesn't freak people out like someone coasting up a climb at 8 mph using a throttle. That's it.

  12. #12
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    36
    Walk assist does nothing more than walking speed to assist you when walking my trance habit also and when sitting on the bike will barely move it in that video he was on a downhill mtb course not too hard to do that on any bike !! Class 1 is not going anywhere that is the future of mountain bike technology

    Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

  13. #13
    Ride da mOOn Moderator
    Reputation: NEPMTBA's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    8,351
    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post
    They didn't get around it, they're just ignoring it.
    Same, same...

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

  14. #14
    Ride da mOOn Moderator
    Reputation: NEPMTBA's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    8,351
    Quote Originally Posted by og-mtb View Post
    It can be argued that "walk assist" provides assistance when the rider isn't pedaling, making it Class 2.

    It can also be argued that "walk assist"uses a motor to exclusively propel the bicycle, making it Class 2.

    The physical throttle in this case is the + button which has to be held down to make the bike move without using the pedals.
    Throttle vs button...

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

  15. #15
    Ride da mOOn Moderator
    Reputation: NEPMTBA's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    8,351
    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post
    Their lobbyists wrote the laws to begin with, at this point, they're stuck with them. The reason they're pushing for only class 1 access on trails is that seeing someone pedal an emtb up a climb at 8 mph doesn't freak people out like someone coasting up a climb at 8 mph using a throttle. That's it.
    And, I could simulate, by pedalling and being using the button at the same time. Who would know?

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

  16. #16
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2018
    Posts
    187
    Quote Originally Posted by NEPMTBA View Post
    Throttle vs button...

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
    Even if you're willing to ignore the whole providing assistance without pedaling part, you'll then have to look at how a throttle is defined.

    Claiming that a button can't be a throttle is not a strong argument.

    throttle
    noun

    1.a device controlling the flow of fuel or power to an engine.
    "the engines were at full throttle"

    button
    noun


    2.a small device on a piece of electrical or electronic equipment which is pressed to operate it.
    synonyms: knob, switch, on/off switch, push switch, disc, lever, handle, key, control, controller













  17. #17
    Bipolar roller
    Reputation: singletrackmack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    1,001
    Quote Originally Posted by scottxpc View Post
    in that video he was on a downhill mtb course not too hard to do that on any bike !!
    Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
    He may have been in a dh Park, but the vid clearly shows he is going up an incline. What he is doing cannot be done on a pedal bike.

    Quote Originally Posted by NEPMTBA View Post
    Throttle vs button...

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
    Very strange comment.

    There are lots of different kinds of throttles. Twist throttle, pedal throttle, thumb throttle, button throttle, etc. If there is a device that when manipulated it activates power to a motor, then it is a throttle.
    Get out of the gutter and onto the mountain top.
    .

  18. #18
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    2,254
    Bosch has had walk assist for a couple of years. Anyone who thinks that makes it a "Class 2" is just looking for another bullshit argument.

    You can't adjust the speed. You hold down on the button, and it goes one slow speed. You let off the button and it stops. On Bosch, if the torque sensor feels *any" pressure on the pedals it cuts walk mode, so there is not even any way you could soft pedal and have the bike do all of the work.

  19. #19
    mtbr member
    Reputation: sfgiantsfan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    2,065
    Quote Originally Posted by tahoebeau View Post
    So I see that the new Levo with the walk assist and shuttle mode make it so you no longer have to pedal to ride making the new Levo a class 2. I was wondering if you all think that this is the new direction for the embt industry?

    I personally am not interested in an ebike unless it has a throttle given that the only places to ride ebikes on singletrack where I live do not have any restrictions regarding the class. So no reason to not have the option to ride without pedaling. I do realize that the “throttle” on the new levo is pretty limited with a max speed of something like 5 mph, but the way the industry goes with more power every year I am sure that will increase steadily. Plus, if it is a class 2 anyways, why not make it so the throttle goes all the way up to the max speed limit of 20mph?

    *edit: added this vid so you can see ridding a Levo without pedaling using the walk assist throttle. This makes it a class 2 by definition of the law.

    After seeing this video I guess we can put the old "it is so much slower downhill" argument to bed.
    I'm sick of all the Irish stereotypes, as soon as I finish this beer I"m punching someone

  20. #20
    Bipolar roller
    Reputation: singletrackmack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    1,001
    Quote Originally Posted by honkinunit View Post
    ...there is not even any way you could soft pedal and have the bike do all of the work.
    Unless you switched to shuttle mode.

    What do you have against soft pedaling the ebike and letting it do all the work for you anyways?
    Get out of the gutter and onto the mountain top.
    .

  21. #21
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    36
    Quote Originally Posted by honkinunit View Post
    Bosch has had walk assist for a couple of years. Anyone who thinks that makes it a "Class 2" is just looking for another bullshit argument.

    You can't adjust the speed. You hold down on the button, and it goes one slow speed. You let off the button and it stops. On Bosch, if the torque sensor feels *any" pressure on the pedals it cuts walk mode, so there is not even any way you could soft pedal and have the bike do all of the work.
    Exactly!! Anyone who argues different has obviously never ridden a class 1 ebike and is just looking to pick a fight !!

    Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

  22. #22
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2018
    Posts
    187
    Quote Originally Posted by scottxpc View Post
    Exactly!! Anyone who argues different has obviously never ridden a class 1 ebike and is just looking to pick a fight !!

    Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
    I think that the electric motor bicycle definitions codified in the law (see above) are pretty straightforward.

    I've also ridden a Class 1 electric motor bicycle.

    Try again?

  23. #23
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    36
    Quote Originally Posted by og-mtb View Post
    I think that the electric motor bicycle definitions codified in the law (see above) are pretty straightforward.

    I've also ridden a Class 1 electric motor bicycle.

    Try again?
    If that's true that you have ridden one than you know it cant go faster than a walk and you are grasping for a way to start a fight it's not going to be with me I'm done talking you should find a hobby lol

    Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

  24. #24
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2018
    Posts
    187
    Quote Originally Posted by scottxpc View Post
    If that's true that you have ridden one than you know it cant go faster than a walk and you are grasping for a way to start a fight it's not going to be with me I'm done talking you should find a hobby lol

    Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
    I've ridden a Class 1 electric motor bike. I definitely went much faster than a walking pace.

    Just like all of the folks that I've seen riding Class 1 electric motor bikes at speeds that are faster than a walk. Just like all of the videos of folks riding Class 1 electric motor bikes at speeds that are faster than a walk.

    You seem to be kind of confused. About a few different things.

  25. #25
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    419
    The anti-ebike crowd just cracks me up, pulling at any straws they can exaggerate.
    Walk mode is just that, walking speed. That video, you don’t see what he did before hand.
    Look at the video again, flat terrain going about walking speed.

    Move along folks! nothing here to report except deranged anti bikers typically foaming at the mouth. They know a tidal wave of ebikes are coming to a local trail near you, it may not be now, but it is the future!


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  26. #26
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2019
    Posts
    6
    Quote Originally Posted by mtbbiker View Post
    The anti-ebike crowd just cracks me up, pulling at any straws they can exaggerate.
    Walk mode is just that, walking speed. That video, you don’t see what he did before hand.
    Look at the video again, flat terrain going about walking speed.

    Move along folks! nothing here to report except deranged anti bikers typically foaming at the mouth. They know a tidal wave of ebikes are coming to a local trail near you, it may not be now, but it is the future!


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Thats it exactly ! Almost comical.

  27. #27
    Moderator Moderator
    Reputation: Harryman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    2,457
    Quote Originally Posted by NEPMTBA View Post
    And, I could simulate, by pedalling and being using the button at the same time. Who would know?

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
    No one. I think we should call a spade a spade, and treat emtbs with throttles, and without throttles the same. They're the same under the law. Ten years from now, in the US anyway, there will be people riding 35lb 250w PAS emtbs with small battery packs, and people riding 45lb 750w PAS emtbs with thumb throttles, or buttons with creative euphemisms that do the same thing whether you are pedalling, ghost pedalling or not pedalling.

    We've already seen emtbs go from torque sensing PAS only, to with "walk assist", to "walk assist" and cadence sensing 100% motor output. How long we'll have programable "walk assist" or "super boost" where a button can give you an adjustable power level on top of whatever else you're doing? Good luck pretending that's not going to happen.

  28. #28
    Ride da mOOn Moderator
    Reputation: NEPMTBA's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    8,351
    Yes, it will follow the American way, but as I have said time and agian, no matter what we talk here, inforcement wont happen. Only high traffic near city areas will see rules enforced.

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

  29. #29
    Bipolar roller
    Reputation: singletrackmack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    1,001
    Quote Originally Posted by mtbbiker View Post
    The anti-ebike crowd just cracks me up...

    Move along folks! nothing here to report except deranged anti bikers typically foaming at the mouth. They know a tidal wave of ebikes are coming to a local trail near you, it may not be now, but it is the future!

    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Quote Originally Posted by mintakax View Post
    Thats it exactly ! Almost comical.
    Please point out the anti ebike posts in this thread.

    There seems to be a lot of touchy people in this forum.
    Get out of the gutter and onto the mountain top.
    .

  30. #30
    Ride da mOOn Moderator
    Reputation: NEPMTBA's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    8,351
    Who, what, WHERE?

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

  31. #31
    Moderator Moderator
    Reputation: Harryman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    2,457
    Quote Originally Posted by singletrackmack View Post
    Please point out the anti ebike posts in this thread.

    There seems to be a lot of touchy people in this forum.
    Right? No one has called for any anti ebike anything. The OP was pointing out that according to the laws; "a bicycle equipped with a motor that provides assistance only when the rider is pedaling,", that if your ebike has a way to turn on the motor and provide assistance that doesn't require pedaling, it's not Class 1.

    You all can argue about what is a "throttle" and how somehow the speed matters, or that it's not Class 2 because no one is going to check, but the law is clear and simple.

    Like the OP, I'm pro throttle, I don't see what the fuss is.

  32. #32
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Posts
    635
    How do you restart on a steep hill without a throttle?

  33. #33
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    419
    Quote Originally Posted by singletrackmack View Post
    Please point out the anti ebike posts in this thread.

    There seems to be a lot of touchy people in this forum.
    Any of the post who doesn't understand walk mode, as it is only a simple on/off button that can only take a bike up to walking speed and I'm sure it limits the torque to maybe 10% torque. If you see it different, then you are definitely anti-ebike. An anti-ebike person will only see what they want to see and nothing else.

    The shuttle mode, you still need to pedal, no throttle. Class 1 is still clearly intact and here to stay.

  34. #34
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    419
    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post
    Right? No one has called for any anti ebike anything. The OP was pointing out that according to the laws; "a bicycle equipped with a motor that provides assistance only when the rider is pedaling,", that if your ebike has a way to turn on the motor and provide assistance that doesn't require pedaling, it's not Class 1.

    You all can argue about what is a "throttle" and how somehow the speed matters, or that it's not Class 2 because no one is going to check, but the law is clear and simple.

    Like the OP, I'm pro throttle, I don't see what the fuss is.
    The ebike I borrowed, an Intense Tazer, walk mode did not have enough power to move with me on it, as it was designed to only assist while walking. The guy in the video must have been walking fast with his ebike on a flat surface, jumped on it and then they video'd it. Again, walk mode is not a riding mode, so it still falls under class 1 ebike.

  35. #35
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2018
    Posts
    187
    Quote Originally Posted by mtbbiker View Post
    Again, walk mode is not a riding mode, so it still falls under class 1 ebike.
    Does the motor provide assistance when the bike isn’t being pedaled?

  36. #36
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    419
    Quote Originally Posted by og-mtb View Post
    Does the motor provide assistance when the bike isn’t being pedaled?
    Yes, with no rider on the bike. Walk mode does not have enough power to move with a rider on the bike. At least that is how it was on the Intense Tazer and I'm sure because of the strict regulations on Class 1 bikes, they are all that way.

  37. #37
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2018
    Posts
    187
    Quote Originally Posted by mtbbiker View Post
    Yes
    How can you claim it is a class 1 bike when the motor provides assistance when it isn’t being pedaled?

    (1) A “class 1 electric bicycle,” or “low-speed pedal-assisted electric bicycle,” is a bicycle equipped with a motor that provides assistance only when the rider is pedaling, and that ceases to provide assistance when the bicycle reaches the speed of 20 miles per hour.

  38. #38
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    419
    Quote Originally Posted by og-mtb View Post
    How can you claim it is a class 1 bike when the motor provides assistance when it isn’t being pedaled?

    (1) A “class 1 electric bicycle,” or “low-speed pedal-assisted electric bicycle,” is a bicycle equipped with a motor that provides assistance only when the rider is pedaling, and that ceases to provide assistance when the bicycle reaches the speed of 20 miles per hour.
    I love how you only showed my "yes", totally took it out of context. You are a definition of an anti-ebike person.
    Walk mode is only designed to be used for walking and not enough power for anything else, so the ebike is not being ridden during this mode. To be a rider, you need to be on the bike, if you are walking a bike, you are no longer a rider. Still clearly a class 1 bike!

  39. #39
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2018
    Posts
    187
    Quote Originally Posted by mtbbiker View Post
    I love how you only showed my "yes", totally took it out of context. You are a definition of an anti-ebike person.
    Walk mode is only designed to be used for walking and not enough power for anything else, so the ebike is not being ridden during this mode. Still clearly a class 1 bike!
    Where in the “strict regulations” that you reference for Class 1 bikes is it stated that motor assistance in walk mode only = Class 1 bike?

    Your opinion, that is contrary to the published regulations, isn’t enough to make an electric motor bike with a walk mode “clearly a Class 1 bike!”

    Please provide proof for your claim.

  40. #40
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    419
    Quote Originally Posted by og-mtb View Post
    Where in the “strict regulations” that you reference for Class 1 bikes is it stated that motor assistance in walk mode only = Class 1 bike?

    Your opinion, that is contrary to the published regulations, isn’t enough to make an electric motor bike with a walk mode “clearly a Class 1 bike!”

    Please provide proof for your claim.
    Quote Originally Posted by og-mtb View Post
    How can you claim it is a class 1 bike when the motor provides assistance when it isn’t being pedaled?

    (1) A “class 1 electric bicycle,” or “low-speed pedal-assisted electric bicycle,” is a bicycle equipped with a motor that provides assistance only when the rider is pedaling, and that ceases to provide assistance when the bicycle reaches the speed of 20 miles per hour.
    You defined it for me and I've seen it around the internet as well. "is a bicycle equipped with a motor that provides assistance only when the RIDER is pedaling". In Walk mode, you are no longer a RIDER. Sorry, friend but that's not an opinion but fact. Still a class 1 ebike!

  41. #41
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2018
    Posts
    187
    Quote Originally Posted by mtbbiker View Post
    You defined it for me and I've seen it around the internet as well. "is a bicycle equipped with a motor that provides assistance only when the RIDER is pedaling". In Walk mode, you are no longer a RIDER. Sorry, friend but that's not an opinion but fact. Still a class 1 ebike!
    So in walk mode you aren’t a rider. Got it.

    You’re not a rider, so you can’t pedal the electric motor bicycle and the motor is being used exclusively to power the bike in walk mode.

    Do I have that right?

  42. #42
    Moderator Moderator
    Reputation: Harryman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    2,457
    Quote Originally Posted by mtbbiker View Post
    Yes, with no rider on the bike. Walk mode does not have enough power to move with a rider on the bike. At least that is how it was on the Intense Tazer and I'm sure because of the strict regulations on Class 1 bikes, they are all that way.
    Brose puts out 100w, which is more than I can manage sometimes.

    https://www.emtbforums.com/community...o-kenevo.1291/

  43. #43
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    419
    Quote Originally Posted by og-mtb View Post
    So in walk mode you aren’t a rider. Got it.

    You’re not a rider, so you can’t pedal the electric motor bicycle and the motor is being used exclusively to power the bike in walk mode.

    Do I have that right?
    If a rider can’t clear a technical climb or downhill, and has to walk it. Can that rider say he rode it? Pretty clear to me, what being a rider is and walking next to a bike is.

    Why are you making walk mode so difficult to understand?
    It’s walk mode with a top speed of walking. What idiot would ride their ebike in walk mode when you have perfectly good forward modes: eco, trail, boost? Still clearly a class 1 ebike



    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  44. #44
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2018
    Posts
    187
    Quote Originally Posted by mtbbiker View Post
    If a rider can’t clear a technical climb or downhill, and has to walk it. Can that rider say he rode it? Pretty clear to me, what being a rider is and walking next to a bike is.

    Why are you making walk mode so difficult to understand?
    It’s walk mode with a top speed of walking. What idiot would ride their ebike in walk mode when you have perfectly good forward modes: eco, trail, boost? Still clearly a class 1 ebike



    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    You didn’t answer my question. I made no mention of riding a bike in walk mode. Don’t know why you’re off on that tangent.

    In walk mode, you’re obviously not riding. You’re not pedaling. Got it. Again.

    The bike is being exclusively propelled by the motor.

    That’s the definition of a Class 2 electric motor bicycle according to those “strict regulations” that you mentioned.

  45. #45
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    419
    Quote Originally Posted by og-mtb View Post
    You didn’t answer my question. I made no mention of riding a bike in walk mode. Don’t know why you’re off on that tangent.

    In walk mode, you’re obviously not riding. You’re not pedaling. Got it. Again.

    The bike is being exclusively propelled by the motor.

    That’s the definition of a Class 2 electric motor bicycle according to those “strict regulations” that you mentioned.
    It's not designed to be pedalled in walk mode. What idiot would ride their ebike in walk mode when there are way better modes designed for going forward? And I'm sure once the ebike senses a pedal input, I bet it shuts the motor off! Still clearly a class 1 ebike. My friend, you are really reaching!

  46. #46
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    419
    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post
    Brose puts out 100w, which is more than I can manage sometimes.

    https://www.emtbforums.com/community...o-kenevo.1291/
    I read that thread and thanks for the clarification. What I gathered is you need to walk a few feet, before the motor kicks in, it can get up to a 100 watt, until it reach a max speed of 3.7mph and then the motor cuts off. I'm sure it also cuts the motor off, if it sees pedal input.
    Walk mode is designed to walk next to the bike and not intended to be used as a riding mode.

  47. #47
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2018
    Posts
    187
    Quote Originally Posted by mtbbiker View Post
    It's not designed to be pedalled in walk mode. What idiot would ride their ebike in walk mode when there are way better modes designed for going forward? And I'm sure once the ebike senses a pedal input, I bet it shuts the motor off! Still clearly a class 1 ebike. My friend, you are really reaching!
    Again, you’re hung up on riding in walk mode for some odd reason.

    I am clearly not discussing riding when in walk mode.

    I am merely noting that you’ve admitted that the bike is being exclusively propelled by the motor in walk mode - which is the definition of a Class 2 electric motor bicycle.

    Just the facts.

  48. #48
    Cycologist
    Reputation: chazpat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    5,030
    Quote Originally Posted by WoodlandHills View Post
    How do you restart on a steep hill without a throttle?
    Welcome to the club, I can't restart on a steep hill on my bicycle.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oh My Sack! View Post
    Remember, there's always quilting and knitting if pedalling becomes too tough.

  49. #49
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    419
    Quote Originally Posted by og-mtb View Post
    Again, you’re hung up on riding in walk mode for some odd reason.

    I am clearly not discussing riding when in walk mode.

    I am merely noting that you’ve admitted that the bike is being exclusively propelled by the motor in walk mode - which is the definition of a Class 2 electric motor bicycle.

    Just the facts.
    My friend you sure are stubborn, the dislike for ebikes is strong in you. But wait until you come out of the closet, I know deep down, you love ebikes. This forum seems to be your home away from home

    And you are clearly trying to make walk mode something else In Walk mode the bike is being propelled by the motor and the person walking next to it. Not by its own There you have it, still clearly a class 1 Ebike!

    Thanks to Harryman, he pointed to post that summarized walk mode
    To activate walk mode:
    * Keep on/off button Pressed.
    * Must walk next to your bike a few feet.
    * 3.7mph top speed and up to 100 watts.

    Items that takes the bike out of walk mode (motor shuts off):
    * Letting go of the on/off switch
    * Speeds greater than 3.7mph
    * pedal input

    There you go, you can't pedal an ebike in Walk mode Still clearly a class 1 ebike
    Your argument is getting weaker by the minute!

  50. #50
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2018
    Posts
    187
    Quote Originally Posted by mtbbiker View Post
    My friend you sure are stubborn, the dislike for ebikes is strong in you. But wait until you come out of the closet, I know deep down, you love ebikes. This forum seems to be your home away from home
    This is really odd, for a number of reasons - I'm not your friend, I don't know you. You assume that I dislike electric motor bicycles, I'm ambivalent. That I have some secret affection for electric motor bicycles, I'm ambivalent. That spending a few minutes a day, about the same amount of time that you appear to, makes this my home away from home, this is silly.

    I'm just questioning your repeated claims that a bike with a throttle that can exclusively propel itself using its motor is "clearly a Class 1 bike." Again, thanks for your admission.

  51. #51
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    5,223
    Quote Originally Posted by WoodlandHills View Post
    How do you restart on a steep hill without a throttle?
    I call them pedals.....

  52. #52
    mtbr member
    Reputation: vikb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    12,504
    Quote Originally Posted by leeboh View Post
    I call them pedals.....
    Yup.
    Safe riding,

    Vik
    www.vikapproved.com

  53. #53
    mtbr member
    Reputation: vikb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    12,504
    Quote Originally Posted by tahoebeau View Post
    I personally am not interested in an ebike unless it has a throttle given that the only places to ride ebikes on singletrack where I live do not have any restrictions regarding the class. So no reason to not have the option to ride without pedaling.
    Hacking your e-bike with a throttle isn't a huge obstacle. It's not like you are the only person who looked at the battery and motor on an e-bike and came the conclusion that the pedals were not all that necessary to forward motion.

    Just remember to spin your legs a bit if you ride somewhere you aren't supposed to have a throttle.
    Safe riding,

    Vik
    www.vikapproved.com

  54. #54
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Posts
    635
    Quote Originally Posted by leeboh View Post
    I call them pedals.....
    Sorry, but I don’t do pedals. Just ghost pedaling to activate the PAS......

  55. #55
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    419
    Quote Originally Posted by og-mtb View Post
    This is really odd, for a number of reasons - I'm not your friend, I don't know you. You assume that I dislike electric motor bicycles, I'm ambivalent. That I have some secret affection for electric motor bicycles, I'm ambivalent. That spending a few minutes a day, about the same amount of time that you appear to, makes this my home away from home, this is silly.

    I'm just questioning your repeated claims that a bike with a throttle that can exclusively propel itself using its motor is "clearly a Class 1 bike." Again, thanks for your admission.
    OG, you're a fellow cyclist and outdoor enthusiast so of course you are my friend. If I knew you or not and came across you on the trail I say hi to you and make small talk! This is how I got some of my best friends! As a matter fact, I do the same with a hiker, dog walker, dirt biker, etc..

    We all agree there is a strict guidelines for class 1 ebikes. Do you think Shimano, Bosch, Yamaha, Brose, Specialized, Giant, Intense, Scott, Norco, etc... just decided one day, hey let's put walk mode into our bikes? Do you have any understanding of the potential fines they all would face by breaking these guidelines?

    I'll give you a real world example of someone intentionally breaking strict rules from the car world! VW and their diesels emissions. They intentional went around the rules, and intentional hide the real emissions results for years. Every government went after them, head executives got fired, cost them most likely billions in fines.

    What do you think the governments would do to ebikes producers who put walk modes into their bikes, if it was more than just walk mode?

    OG, my fellow brother and friend, you keep making your case weaker and weaker and just proving my point. Walk mode is just that, used for walking only. Still clearly a Class 1 ebike!

  56. #56
    Bipolar roller
    Reputation: singletrackmack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    1,001
    Quote Originally Posted by mtbbiker View Post
    Any of the post who doesn't understand walk mode, as it is only a simple on/off button that can only take a bike up to walking speed and I'm sure it limits the torque to maybe 10% torque. If you see it different, then you are definitely anti-ebike. An anti-ebike person will only see what they want to see and nothing else.

    The shuttle mode, you still need to pedal, no throttle. Class 1 is still clearly intact and here to stay.
    How does pointing out that the new levo is technically a class 2 make anyone anti-ebike?

    Ya, it is not very practical as a class 2 with a top speed of only about 4 mph using the using thumb throttle, but not being practical doesn’t stop it from being what it is. The video clearly shows the biker riding the ebike that is being propelled purely by the button thumb throttle which specialized calls walk assist. The speed he is going or the grade he is on is not relevant to determining the class of the ebike. If the ebike motor can propel the rider without the rider pedaling, then class 2 by definition. And before you get all worked up over trying to argue against logic, please explain why the new levo being a class 2 is such an issue for you. What do you care if it is a class 2 or not?

    Also, I ride ebikes ranging from 1k to over 10k many times a year. I am planning on buying or building an ebike hopefully for this summer. So how am I anti-ebike?
    Get out of the gutter and onto the mountain top.
    .

  57. #57
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    5,530
    Just like you would on a non ebike.

    I think the answer begs the question, ie if you can’t get started on a hill because it’s too steep you either:

    1) Walk
    2) Try, try, try again
    3) Turn around and go down

    What I don’t understand is why this situation necessitates the need for a throttle. The walk mode gives the rider assistance to walk up a hill they can’t climb, which is quite reasonable.

    If you can’t ride up a particular hill, do what I do: repeat until you can it or ride elsewhere.

    Ebikes are not designed to be motos, blur that line and the anti ebiker contingent will have your arse.

    There’s nothing wrong with having an ebike and a moto, they serve different needs, but like a non ebike, you need to make sure you use them legally.

    Quote Originally Posted by WoodlandHills View Post
    How do you restart on a steep hill without a throttle?
    XMed GG Smash 29/27+ (Frameset For Sale)
    Lrg Fezzari Signal Peak 29+
    Lrg Pivot Shuttle 27+ (wife's)

  58. #58
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    360
    Quote Originally Posted by singletrackmack View Post
    How does pointing out that the new levo is technically a class 2 make anyone anti-ebike?

    ....Please explain why the new levo being a class 2 is such an issue for you. What do you care if it is a class 2 or not?
    I would love to here those that are getting all worked up over the new levo being technically a class 2 explain these questions.

    As Mack pointed out, there are some really sensitive and thin skinned people around here.

  59. #59
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    419
    Quote Originally Posted by singletrackmack View Post
    How does pointing out that the new levo is technically a class 2 make anyone anti-ebike?

    Ya, it is not very practical as a class 2 with a top speed of only about 4 mph using the using thumb throttle, but not being practical doesn’t stop it from being what it is. The video clearly shows the biker riding the ebike that is being propelled purely by the button thumb throttle which specialized calls walk assist. The speed he is going or the grade he is on is not relevant to determining the class of the ebike. If the ebike motor can propel the rider without the rider pedaling, then class 2 by definition. And before you get all worked up over trying to argue against logic, please explain why the new levo being a class 2 is such an issue for you. What do you care if it is a class 2 or not?

    Also, I ride ebikes ranging from 1k to over 10k many times a year. I am planning on buying or building an ebike hopefully for this summer. So how am I anti-ebike?
    It is clearly a Class 1 ebike. Walk mode is not a self propelled mode. In walk mode you need two things to propel the bike forward: a rider has to starting pushing the bike in walk mode, then the assist comes on. You can't have one without the other unless you stage it like in the video. Funny you don't see what led up to that scene you are mentioning, because am sure he first started out walking next to it.

  60. #60
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    360
    Quote Originally Posted by mtbbiker View Post
    It is clearly a Class 1 ebike....because am sure he first started out walking next to it.
    And how can you be sure of this? Have you rode the new levo? In the video shows it being propelled by the walk assist. That is what we know. As pointed out, it may not be practical, but that doesn’t matter.

    However, regardless of all that, what does it matter if in fact the Levo is a class 2? Why do you care so much?

  61. #61
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    36
    Quote Originally Posted by tahoebeau View Post
    However, regardless of all that, what does it matter if in fact the Levo is a class 2? Why do you care so much?
    Really good question. Why the f does it matter so much if it is a class 2 or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by mtbbiker View Post
    In walk mode you need two things to propel the bike forward: a rider has to starting pushing the bike in walk mode, then the assist comes on. You can't have one without the other unless you stage it like in the video.
    All ebikes are different. The walk mode on one brand/model is different from another. So unless you have ridden this model of ebike in the video, you don’t know what you’re talking about.

    I am trying to imaging how the rider got on the bike to get it going using the thumb throttle walk assist. I would guess he sat on the bike, maybe pushed off with his feet to get some momentum and balance and get his feet up on the bars and then pushed the walk throttle button to keep it going and have it continue to propel him.

    Although, how he got it going is irrelivent. What matters is whether or not the motor is propelling him without pedaling and the vid clearly shows that, but again, why the f does it matter if it is a class 2?

    You’re are starting to sound like you are anti-class 2 ebike.
    keepoaklandfresh

    I'm gonna put on an iron shirt and ride my bike all over this eart'

  62. #62
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    419
    Quote Originally Posted by shortbutfunky View Post
    Really good question. Why the f does it matter so much if it is a class 2 or not?



    All ebikes are different. The walk mode on one brand/model is different from another. So unless you have ridden this model of ebike in the video, you don’t know what you’re talking about.

    I am trying to imaging how the rider got on the bike to get it going using the thumb throttle walk assist. I would guess he sat on the bike, maybe pushed off with his feet to get some momentum and balance and get his feet up on the bars and then pushed the walk throttle button to keep it going and have it continue to propel him.

    Although, how he got it going is irrelivent. What matters is whether or not the motor is propelling him without pedaling and the vid clearly shows that, but again, why the f does it matter if it is a class 2?

    You’re are starting to sound like you are anti-class 2 ebike.
    That’s the problem with the video, it doesn’t show the before. I can guarantee you, he didn’t just push the walk assist button and off the bike went. He manipulated that mode for dramatic affect and it worked! Got the people leaning anti ebikes foaming at the mouth!



    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  63. #63
    Location: 10 ft from Hell Moderator
    Reputation: life behind bars's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    4,094
    Quote Originally Posted by mtbbiker View Post
    Got the people leaning anti ebikes foaming at the mouth!



    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk







    When e-motorbikers tout the law to try and support their "rights" to trails you should expect the nuances of the law to be used in attempts to deny it as well.
    Wanted, SRAM GX 2x11 rear derailleur

    It ain't supposed to be easy.

  64. #64
    2x is underrated
    Reputation: richj8990's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Posts
    1,573
    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post
    Their lobbyists wrote the laws to begin with, at this point, they're stuck with them. The reason they're pushing for only class 1 access on trails is that seeing someone pedal an emtb up a climb at 8 mph doesn't freak people out like someone coasting up a climb at 8 mph using a throttle. That's it.

    Too bad everyone doesn't share that same opinion about e-assist pedal climbing vs. throttle climbing.
    From Ancient Times - Scarlet Skies Burn to Ash

  65. #65
    2x is underrated
    Reputation: richj8990's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Posts
    1,573
    Quote Originally Posted by NEPMTBA View Post
    Yes, it will follow the American way, but as I have said time and agian, no matter what we talk here, inforcement wont happen. Only high traffic near city areas will see rules enforced.

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


    This is not just true about e-bikes. It's with everything.

    Hardly any rules about anything in a rural area. Stop signs, RR crossing signs, turn signs, yield signs, all happily shot up for decades by beer drinking hicks in those areas, never replaced. No one cares. Who cares about what bike someone's one if they don't even care about illegal defacement of govt. property?

    Compare that to a suburban area where walking and biking trails are surrounded by 50,000 person neighborhoods. Now, all of a sudden a lot of people care about a lot of things. Soccer moms with families that are overprotected. Much more environmentally conscious people in a city compared to BFE. The anti-ebike laws there are simply a side-effect of the overbearing bureaucracy that has a million rules about everything. Most rules mean well, many are just a waste of stamped paper.
    From Ancient Times - Scarlet Skies Burn to Ash

  66. #66
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    36
    Quote Originally Posted by mtbbiker View Post
    He manipulated that mode for dramatic affect and it worked! Got the people leaning anti ebikes foaming at the mouth! Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Yes, that is what you do with throttles. You need to manipulate them to activate the motor to propel you.

    Regardless, the vast majority of ebikes are class 2. So seriously, please explain why pointing out that the new levo is a class 2 is anti-ebike.
    keepoaklandfresh

    I'm gonna put on an iron shirt and ride my bike all over this eart'

  67. #67
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    406
    Quote Originally Posted by NEPMTBA View Post
    And, I could simulate, by pedalling and being using the button at the same time. Who would know?

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
    Guys, are you really trying to make the point that people are going to be pushing a button to go 5-6 mph and that is the same think as a thottle. Has anyone here tried to ride the bike in walk assist? With the weight of a full grown man I don’t think it would have enough power to move at all.

    It’s sad to see people hate on a product that has a lot of benefits for the mt community. Very narrow minded to think it’s a bad thing.
    In stead of using your energy trying to hate, let’s figure out how a influx of new blood to the sport can help us open more trails.

  68. #68
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    406
    Quote Originally Posted by og-mtb View Post
    The walk assist is not set at approximately 1mph.

    Name:  levo.JPG
Views: 472
Size:  14.8 KB

    It would be very hard to argue that the Levo with walk assist is Class 1.

    Most electric motor bicycle laws are similar to this:

    (1) A “class 1 electric bicycle,” or “low-speed pedal-assisted electric bicycle,” is a bicycle equipped with a motor that provides assistance only when the rider is pedaling, and that ceases to provide assistance when the bicycle reaches the speed of 20 miles per hour.
    (2) A “class 2 electric bicycle,” or “low-speed throttle-assisted electric bicycle,” is a bicycle equipped with a motor that may be used exclusively to propel the bicycle, and that is not capable of providing assistance when the bicycle reaches the speed of 20 miles per hour.
    Lol!!!
    It’s 3.7mph not 1mph, really?
    That’s your argument.
    Sad

  69. #69
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    419
    Quote Originally Posted by shortbutfunky View Post
    Yes, that is what you do with throttles. You need to manipulate them to activate the motor to propel you.

    Regardless, the vast majority of ebikes are class 2. So seriously, please explain why pointing out that the new levo is a class 2 is anti-ebike.
    In your opinion, an on/off switch is now considered a throttle?

    If you can’t see the anti ebike tone in this post then there’s not much else to discuss. Hopefully, you’ll come around.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  70. #70
    mtbr member
    Reputation: hikerdave's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    1,034
    Quote Originally Posted by mtbbiker View Post
    OG, you're a fellow cyclist and outdoor enthusiast so of course you are my friend. If I knew you or not and came across you on the trail I say hi to you and make small talk! This is how I got some of my best friends! As a matter fact, I do the same with a hiker, dog walker, dirt biker, etc..

    We all agree there is a strict guidelines for class 1 ebikes. Do you think Shimano, Bosch, Yamaha, Brose, Specialized, Giant, Intense, Scott, Norco, etc... just decided one day, hey let's put walk mode into our bikes? Do you have any understanding of the potential fines they all would face by breaking these guidelines?

    I'll give you a real world example of someone intentionally breaking strict rules from the car world! VW and their diesels emissions. They intentional went around the rules, and intentional hide the real emissions results for years. Every government went after them, head executives got fired, cost them most likely billions in fines.

    What do you think the governments would do to ebikes producers who put walk modes into their bikes, if it was more than just walk mode?

    OG, my fellow brother and friend, you keep making your case weaker and weaker and just proving my point. Walk mode is just that, used for walking only. Still clearly a Class 1 ebike!
    Walk mode is disabled on my Yamaha-powered Haibike SDURO. I met the Yamaha Product manager for the USA, Drew Englemann, at a Yamaha Bike demo. Drew told me that even though the walk button was still present on my bike the controller hardware didn't have a connection for it , and showed me his fleet of Yamaha bikes with that button no longer present on the handlebars. He further explained that Yamaha had decided to remove walk mode because that was an access point for dongle manufacturers who might use the feature to modify the bike's behavior.

    He was also interested in how I used my bike, why I'd moved the display to the forward position; the choice of gearing I'd made, etc.

    Personally, I had wondered whether the throttle button made the bike class II but I didn't really need to know because in Arizona where eBikes are allowed class I and class II are treated the same.

    Pedalling adds a lot more power to the bike; I, 61 years old, rode with a power meter yesterday afternoon and was usually around 130 watts on slightly uphill sections but for short bursts uphill I was making up to 400 watts; usually accelerating out of a twisty section after the trail straightened out I would briefly hit around 200 watts; I wasn't in any big hurry or working especially hard. I'd guess that a throttle-only class II eBike would be considerably slower and less fun and burn the battery down very quickly.

    Class II is probably most useful for someone with severe disability, advanced age, or a giant streak of laziness. I've often seen a forty-something riding an eBike in the park taking his dog out for a run without pedaling. That guy.
    "Thank you, God, for letting me have another day"
    The Milagro Beanfield War

  71. #71
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    7,524
    I'm just having trouble figuring out who the hell (besides someone who is severely disabled) is so epicly weak and lame that they can't even manage to roll their bike along next to them without motor assist?
    Sinister Bikes
    Wraith Bicycles
    Sunday River Mtn Bike Park
    NEMBA
    Wachusett Brewing Co.

  72. #72
    Moderator Moderator
    Reputation: Harryman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    2,457
    Quote Originally Posted by mtbbiker View Post
    It is clearly a Class 1 ebike. Walk mode is not a self propelled mode. In walk mode you need two things to propel the bike forward: a rider has to starting pushing the bike in walk mode, then the assist comes on. You can't have one without the other unless you stage it like in the video. Funny you don't see what led up to that scene you are mentioning, because am sure he first started out walking next to it.
    So, I looked into it, and clearly, once a rider stops riding an ebike, legally, they become a hiker, and the ebike, an ehike. The ehike legislation is specific, "the motor can only provide assist while the hiker is bipedal". Therefore, if you're hiking, you can use the ehike to assist you pushing a button, thumb throttle, twist throttle, etc.

    Actually, no, I just made all that up. You're stuck with the Class 1 legislation that makes no allowances for other ways to turn the motor on besides pedaling. You can be standing beside it, walking beside it, balancing on the seat on your head, but if you don't pedal, the motor can't provide assist and still adhere to the law. There aren't any exemptions, which is why it hinges on the word "only". You can argue it's not Class 2, I'm not sure why, but you can't argue that it's Class 1.

    I agree that walk assist is not meant for anything except driving your ebike up hills while you walk along side it, and outside of a party trick, it's pretty useless for anything else. It doesn't matter what it is meant for, it's existence still puts it out of compliance for Class 1.


    Quote Originally Posted by mtbbiker View Post
    We all agree there is a strict guidelines for class 1 ebikes. Do you think Shimano, Bosch, Yamaha, Brose, Specialized, Giant, Intense, Scott, Norco, etc... just decided one day, hey let's put walk mode into our bikes? Do you have any understanding of the potential fines they all would face by breaking these guidelines?
    When the Class 1-3 laws were enacted in CA, and then introduced in other states around the country, like now, all of the purpose build emtbs on sale were EU spec ebikes (250w 15.5mph) that were simply adjusted via software settings to the higher 20mph cuttoff that the new laws allowed. At the time, many of the EU etmbs also had walk assist, but the manufacturers disabled it in the software in the US, since it wasn't allowed according to Class 1 legislations. After a while, US emtb riders figured out what they were missing and bitched about having to push their heavy ebikes while the EU riders didn't, leading to people trying to figure it out how to enable it on their own, or getting shops to do it. Eventually, the bike companies just started shipping them with it enabled.

    There are no significant fines faced by ebike manufacturers in the US for mislabeling their ebikes. They, like everyone else knows no one is checking, so they dont really care. They don't really care that anyone is free to bypass the speed cutoff, they haven't done anything effective to stop it. I expect them to play fast and loose with all of their legal parameters going into the future, they'll give people what they want, they just want to sell ebikes.

  73. #73
    10,000,000 Watts
    Reputation: Gutch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    2,368
    Quote Originally Posted by tahoebeau View Post
    So I see that the new Levo with the walk assist and shuttle mode make it so you no longer have to pedal to ride making the new Levo a class 2. I was wondering if you all think that this is the new direction for the embt industry?

    I personally am not interested in an ebike unless it has a throttle given that the only places to ride ebikes on singletrack where I live do not have any restrictions regarding the class. So no reason to not have the option to ride without pedaling. I do realize that the “throttle” on the new levo is pretty limited with a max speed of something like 5 mph, but the way the industry goes with more power every year I am sure that will increase steadily. Plus, if it is a class 2 anyways, why not make it so the throttle goes all the way up to the max speed limit of 20mph?

    *edit: added this vid so you can see ridding a Levo without pedaling using the walk assist throttle. This makes it a class 2 by definition of the law.

    Weekly “stir the pot” post.
    RIDE EBIKES - DRINK BEER - REPEAT!

  74. #74
    ninjichor.com
    Reputation: ninjichor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2018
    Posts
    755
    Walk assist is that powerful? Sweet. Actually heard reports that it was useless, or disabled by some mfgers. F pushing up 50 lbs up a hill. If I ever demo a Levo, I'm going to try testing the walk assist just like that. Looks almost faster than walking speed up the hill. Sped up video in the side perspective? The cranks look like they're spinning pretty fast.

  75. #75
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    406
    Forget about class 1,2 or 3 I’m taking my dirt bike on some singletrack!

  76. #76
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Bigwheel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    2,313
    "The cranks look like they're spinning pretty fast."

    Which brings up the query of why the heck the cranks are spinning at all? Seems like they would be whacking your gastrocnemius every revolution. I guess you could turn your shin guards around to soften the blow.

    In a way, as a Class 2 cyclist, I find it highly mystifying as to why people think that throttles are such a threat. They don't have any effect on the motor output level of a legal bike, as in using one doesn't suddenly activate after burners. As noted if someone chooses to use it exclusively they will wear out their wh's in half the time and be missing the whole idea of riding a bike to begin with. Their loss but shouldn't bother others.

    I find mine useful for starting off in some situations, as a hike assist (my cranks don't rotate under throttle power) and the odd blip to maintain momentum. Probably works out to less than 1/2% of my riding time overall. But for that it doesn't add hardly any weight to my system, a bit of wire and a plastic thumb throttle is all. So to me worth having on board.

    Prior to the manufacturer backed, via their mouthpiece PFB, Class laws based on the EU regs that chose to exclude them, throttles on eBikes were not at all listed in the Federal or State regulations and existed without anyone complaining because eBikes didn't just come along in the last few years, they have been here for over 20 years.
    A bike by any other name is still a bike.

  77. #77
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Posts
    359
    Quote Originally Posted by tahoebeau View Post
    ...
    I personally am not interested in an ebike unless it has a throttle given that the only places to ride ebikes on singletrack where I live do not have any restrictions regarding the class. So no reason to not have the option to ride without pedaling...

    You will be seeing more ebikes of all classes, but I suspect mostly class 1.

    It sounds like what you want is a class 3 ebike. Plenty of 'em available, just not from S,T, etc. Maybe an eMoto like an Electric Motion Escape?

    Are class 1 embts going away?-img_1615-xl.jpg

    My Beta loves singletrack, and yes the Kern River Trail (above) is motorized-mut. Come on over to the darkside. ;-)

    BRAAAP!

    Catfish ...

  78. #78
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    360
    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    Weekly “stir the pot” post.
    Wow, your one to talk about stirring the pot. That is really, really funny coming from someone who has numerous threads that they themselves started on this forum that have been either closed or moved.

    You even have thread right now complaining about your threads being moved... that is now being moved!!!

    Are class 1 embts going away?-21d4df26-4d3b-403f-bfbf-18ffd09d6aec.jpg

  79. #79
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    360
    Quote Originally Posted by mtbbiker View Post
    In your opinion, an on/off switch is now considered a throttle?
    If we are to go by the definition of the word, then it is not my opinion. Please look it up.

    But if you don’t, basically a throttle is something you push, pull, twist or whatever that activates the motor. This is at the most basic level here so we can keep to the definition for you.

    Now it does get more complicated when you start talking about most being variable, which I don’t think my 3 year old nephew understands, but he understands the basic concept of a throttle with his remote control car that has 4 arrow buttons. Push the forward arrow button and the car moves forward. Let go of the button and it stops moving forward. Push the walk-throttle button on the levo and it moves forward. Let go of the button and the levo stops moving forward.

    That is as basic as you can get when defining the word “throttle”

    Quote Originally Posted by mtbbiker View Post
    If you can’t see the anti ebike tone in this post then there’s not much else to discuss. Hopefully, you’ll come around.
    I do see your anti-ebike tone in your post and that you have given to this thread in your other posts here. What bothers you seems to be the positive posts about ebikes on this thread, but those posts aren’t about the kind of ebike you like apparenty. Hopefully you’ll come around to realizing that class 2 ebikes are ebikes just as class 1 ebikes are and you stop this elitist attitude of “oh, I have to pedal in order to get my motor to start, it’s not like I am just pushing a button with my thumb to get it to go”

    Also, I don’t have any reason to come around to excluding class 2 ebikes like you seem to want to since the only place to ride ebikes on non-motorized, single-track trails up here in beautiful Lake Tahoe has no restrictions regarding throttles. So I will continue to be positive about class 2 ebikes.


    And you keep calling out people for being anti-ebike for pointing out that the new levo is technically (while not practical) a class 2. If your going to do that again then please explain why you consider saying that “the new levo is a class 2” to be anti-bike?

    You and other class 1 elitist have been avoiding answering this for some reason.
    Last edited by tahoebeau; 1 Week Ago at 04:06 AM.

  80. #80
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    360
    Quote Originally Posted by motocatfish View Post
    You will be seeing more ebikes of all classes, but I suspect mostly class 1.

    It sounds like what you want is a class 3 ebike. Plenty of 'em available, just not from S,T, etc. Maybe an eMoto like an Electric Motion Escape?

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	img_1615-XL.jpg 
Views:	25 
Size:	411.2 KB 
ID:	1237537


    My Beta loves singletrack, and yes the Kern River Trail (above) is motorized-mut. Come on over to the darkside. ;-)

    BRAAAP!

    Catfish ...
    Nice! I am actually looking at some Luna conversions kits. They have a new torque sensing one that will be coming soon with a throttle and an available 52v kit as well. I want to keep it a 750w rated motor to keep it legal for some of the local trails. Plus, from what I’ve read, I can get more power if needed out of one without issue as other users have posted in this forum showing their 750w nominal motors running over 750 watts with a more powerful controller without overheating the motor, all while staying legal.

    As far as most ebikes in the future, I don’t see us ebikers changing what we currently like and start buying ebikes without throttles. Almost all ebikes being sold today have throttles. It is only niche ebikes like the levo that do not have throttles. I rent bikes here in Tahoe in the summer for tourist and our ebikes have throttles as that is what the tourist want and expect from ebikes. And pretty much all commuter and light duty mtbs have throttles.

    And given that most all ebikes today are sold with throttles I ask if class# 1 ebikes will go away. Seeing specialized move in the direction of throttles with the new shuttle mode which is in essence a soft pedal mode and given that vast majority of people starting out with ebikes will start with one that has a throttle; I think when those whom choose to advance to off-road and go to buy a more mtb oriented ebike, throttle will be a must for them since that is how they learned to ride an ebike. This will make class 1 embts a tougher sell.

  81. #81
    cmg
    cmg is offline
    passed out in your garden
    Reputation: cmg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    2,157
    Quote Originally Posted by mtbbiker View Post
    If you see it different, then you are definitely anti-ebike.
    reminds me of a past US President, " you are either with us or against us"

    funny thread though

    and just to stir the pot

    always mad and usually drunk......

  82. #82
    10,000,000 Watts
    Reputation: Gutch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    2,368
    Quote Originally Posted by tahoebeau View Post
    Wow, your one to talk about stirring the pot. That is really, really funny coming from someone who has numerous threads that they themselves started on this forum that have been either closed or moved.

    You even have thread right now complaining about your threads being moved... that is now being moved!!!

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	21D4DF26-4D3B-403F-BFBF-18FFD09D6AEC.jpg 
Views:	16 
Size:	53.1 KB 
ID:	1237538
    Yeah, to keep all ebike threads, in the ebike section, smart? Also, I’ve been riding ebikes for 3 years and have 5 in my garage. There’s a difference between an actual owner/rider and the rest that all have opinions... uh is 2mph walk a class 1 still? Who gives a shit, go ride. If it’s not throwing roost, I’m cool with it. Let’s all stop dancing around on our fragile ice ponds and pound some dirt. It is dirt for Christ sake. Buncha weenies.
    RIDE EBIKES - DRINK BEER - REPEAT!

  83. #83
    10,000,000 Watts
    Reputation: Gutch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    2,368
    Are class 1 embts going away?-3560bcbe-2f33-43ec-a3a8-777844aadbf2.jpgAlso, why start a thread here after you post this?
    RIDE EBIKES - DRINK BEER - REPEAT!

  84. #84
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Posts
    635
    Quote Originally Posted by cmg View Post
    reminds me of a past US President, " you are either with us or against us"

    funny thread though

    and just to stir the pot

    I wondered when the “you didn’t earn the right to be up here” whine would be introduced. And right on time here it is.....

  85. #85
    cmg
    cmg is offline
    passed out in your garden
    Reputation: cmg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    2,157
    Quote Originally Posted by WoodlandHills View Post
    I wondered when the “you didn’t earn the right to be up here” whine would be introduced. And right on time here it is.....
    butt hurt?
    btw, hook line & sinker


    always mad and usually drunk......

  86. #86
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    2,254
    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    I'm just having trouble figuring out who the hell (besides someone who is severely disabled) is so epicly weak and lame that they can't even manage to roll their bike along next to them without motor assist?
    Have you ever ridden the Slickrock Trail in Moab? There are pitches almost no one can ride, even a class 1 ebike, because they are so steep, and they have infinite traction. Try pushing a 50lb bike up one of those sections. You'll be reaching for the walk button in about 10 feet.

  87. #87
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Posts
    635
    Quote Originally Posted by cmg View Post
    reminds me of a past US President, " you are either with us or against us"

    funny thread though

    and just to stir the pot

    Quote Originally Posted by cmg View Post
    butt hurt?
    btw, hook line & sinker


    Not sure what the point of that was since I haven’t been on a pedal mountain bike since I got my first ebike. And being 65, any women that I might want to go riding with would choose an eMTB over a pushMTB everytime. I’ve also found that girls in their 30’s and 40’s that have been on my eMTB’s really prefer the throttle on the Class 2 over the Class 1. Could their lack of testosterone be increasing their common sense?

  88. #88
    cmg
    cmg is offline
    passed out in your garden
    Reputation: cmg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    2,157
    really?
    Last edited by cmg; 1 Week Ago at 11:40 PM.
    always mad and usually drunk......

  89. #89
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Posts
    359
    Quote Originally Posted by tahoebeau View Post
    ...
    Plus, from what I’ve read, I can get more power if needed out of one without issue as other users have posted in this forum showing their 750w nominal motors running over 750 watts with a more powerful controller without overheating the motor, all while staying legal.
    "They" hate it when we discuss such things here, but I agree with you. My Sondors Thin (eRoadie) has 350w nominal motor, and came with 350w/36v controller+battery combo. And a thumb throttle. Class 2 with its 20mph speed limit. Cheap.

    20A controller+display from Luna with big 48V battery upgrade. 750w/28mph class 3 now. Range improved from 20-22 miles to over 50.

    With saddlebags+rack & rok straps, its my grocery/hardware/gym/rei errand ride. :-)

    Quote Originally Posted by tahoebeau View Post
    ...
    It is only niche ebikes like the levo that do not have throttles. I rent bikes here in Tahoe in the summer for tourist and our ebikes have throttles as that is what the tourist want and expect from ebikes. And pretty much all commuter and light duty mtbs have throttles.
    ...
    Ah, the rental perspective. Thanks! I do not doubt that ebike renters that learn of throttles will require them.

    Class 1 came from euro definition, and it included pedal AND walk assist. But the initial USA manuf disabled walk assist because of the fear of it being call a throttle. D'OH!

    I own a 2017 Trek Powerfly, and its in the shop for the 3rd attempt to get walk assist un-disabled. D'OH!

    Those of us who live in the bay area & other places where only class-1 emtbs are beginning to be allowed on bike trails, that's where you see folks like me buying class-1 to ride legal locally.

    Are class 1 embts going away?-i-vjvrqhv-xl.jpg

    Its when the trailer is filled with tools & stuff that I wish I had walk assist. Sometimes I have to hike-a-bike+trailer with my new knee and that just sux!

    The traditional mtb manufacturers will probably stay class-1 until they see acceptance of class-3 legally and in personal sales. Who knows how long that will take.

    Good luck with the rental business! :-)

    Catfish ...

  90. #90
    Moderator Moderator
    Reputation: Harryman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    2,457
    Quote Originally Posted by motocatfish View Post
    You will be seeing more ebikes of all classes, but I suspect mostly class 1.

    It sounds like what you want is a class 3 ebike. Plenty of 'em available, just not from S,T, etc. Maybe an eMoto like an Electric Motion Escape?
    Class 3 is just a Class 1 with the speed cut off upped to 28mph. Anything above that in power and speed is treated as a moped or moto in most places.

    "(3) A “class 3 electric bicycle,” or “speed pedal-assisted electric bicycle,” is a bicycle equipped with a motor that provides assistance only when the rider is pedaling, and that ceases to provide assistance when the bicycle reaches the speed of 28 miles per hour, and equipped with a speedometer."

    If I had the money to spare, I'd just buy a Sur Ron, since ebikes are limited almost exclusively to moto trails around here, why screw around?


  91. #91
    Bipolar roller
    Reputation: singletrackmack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    1,001
    Quote Originally Posted by tahoebeau View Post
    As far as most ebikes in the future, I don’t see us ebikers changing what we currently like and start buying ebikes without throttles. Almost all ebikes being sold today have throttles. It is only niche ebikes like the levo that do not have throttles.

    ....that vast majority of people starting out with ebikes will start with one that has a throttle; I think when those whom choose to advance to off-road and go to buy a more mtb oriented ebike, throttle will be a must for them since that is how they learned to ride an ebike. This will make class 1 embts a tougher sell.
    I think this is spot on. As ebikes become more popular and with most all coming with throttles as they always have, I also think people will have a difficult time trying to understand why the “niche” ebikes from mtb manufactures cost so much, but don’t even come with a throttle option. That will not fly with 99% of ebike customers making class 1 of any kind a hard sell.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post
    Class 3 is just a Class 1 with the speed cut off upped to 28mph. Anything above that in power and speed is treated as a moped or moto in most places.

    ...If I had the money to spare, I'd just buy a Sur Ron, since ebikes are limited almost exclusively to moto trails around here, why screw around?
    Sun ron looks fun, but may look too much like a moto I think for most ebikers. But, since you mentioned “if I had the money to spare”, I think most people buying an ebike will be trying to get the most bang for the buck given how expensive they are. And that means comparing features. And face it, a throttle will start to become even more of an expected standard feature for the masses.
    Get out of the gutter and onto the mountain top.
    .

  92. #92
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    7,524
    Quote Originally Posted by honkinunit View Post
    Have you ever ridden the Slickrock Trail in Moab? There are pitches almost no one can ride, even a class 1 ebike, because they are so steep, and they have infinite traction. Try pushing a 50lb bike up one of those sections. You'll be reaching for the walk button in about 10 feet.
    I don't have any interest in a climbing a 50lb bike.
    Sinister Bikes
    Wraith Bicycles
    Sunday River Mtn Bike Park
    NEMBA
    Wachusett Brewing Co.

  93. #93
    Moderator Moderator
    Reputation: Harryman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    2,457
    Quote Originally Posted by singletrackmack View Post
    Sun ron looks fun, but may look too much like a moto I think for most ebikers.
    Yeah, I wasn't proposing that it's an ebike, because it's not, it's really a mtb sized electric moto. Which seems like fun to me at half the cost of a decent emtb, especially since there's no point in owning an emtb here anyway.

  94. #94
    mtbr member
    Reputation: sfgiantsfan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    2,065
    [QUOTE=motocatfish;13980967]You will be seeing more ebikes of all classes, but I suspect mostly class 1.

    It sounds like what you want is a class 3 ebike. Plenty of 'em available, just not from S,T, etc. Maybe an eMoto like an Electric Motion Escape?

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	img_1615-XL.jpg 
Views:	25 
Size:	411.2 KB 
ID:	1237537

    My Beta loves singletrack, and yes the Kern River Trail (above) is motorized-mut. Come on over to the darkside. ;-)

    BRAAAP!

    Catfish

    All that thing is missing is a windshield and a stereo, looks like cockpit of a Gold Wing
    I'm sick of all the Irish stereotypes, as soon as I finish this beer I"m punching someone

  95. #95
    Big Mac
    Reputation: mbmb65's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    4,433
    [QUOTE=sfgiantsfan;13981416]
    Quote Originally Posted by motocatfish View Post
    You will be seeing more ebikes of all classes, but I suspect mostly class 1.

    It sounds like what you want is a class 3 ebike. Plenty of 'em available, just not from S,T, etc. Maybe an eMoto like an Electric Motion Escape?

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	img_1615-XL.jpg 
Views:	25 
Size:	411.2 KB 
ID:	1237537

    My Beta loves singletrack, and yes the Kern River Trail (above) is motorized-mut. Come on over to the darkside. ;-)

    BRAAAP!

    Catfish

    All that thing is missing is a windshield and a stereo, looks like cockpit of a Gold Wing
    Definitely ain’t a bicycle.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  96. #96
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    2,254
    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    I don't have any interest in a climbing a 50lb bike.
    Then you'll never get to experience descending on an ebike, which is completely awesome.

  97. #97
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2018
    Posts
    187
    Quote Originally Posted by motocatfish View Post
    Those of us who live in the bay area & other places where only class-1 emtbs are beginning to be allowed on bike trails, that's where you see folks like me buying class-1 to ride legal locally.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	i-vjVrQHV-XL.jpg 
Views:	27 
Size:	263.3 KB 
ID:	1237593
    Shot: Posts photo of Class 1 ebike to show what folks buy locally to ride legally.

    Chaser: Class 1 ebikes aren't legal in Walnut Creek Open Space.

    Not a big deal from a MTB access standpoint (normal bikes are restricted to fireroads, dogs aren't allowed, etc. but there is zero enforcement), just a funny example to use.

  98. #98
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2018
    Posts
    187
    Quote Originally Posted by honkinunit View Post
    Then you'll never get to experience descending on an ebike, which is completely awesome.
    Hmmm....maybe he, like many folks who have been riding for a while, have experience with old school DH bikes which pushed those weights.

    In comparison, today's lighter weight bikes are completely awesome.

    The false narrative of "heavy is better" is one of the odder tropes of some of the electric motor bicycle crowd.

    p.s. "There are pitches almost no one can ride, even a class 1 ebike, because they are so steep, and they have infinite traction." It sounds like you aren't riding at the right time or with the right people. Many folks clean the entire Slick Rock on normal bicycles.

  99. #99
    ninjichor.com
    Reputation: ninjichor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2018
    Posts
    755
    I like to fuss over the geo tables, suspension kinematics, build quality, and spec of a mtb (e, or non-e), and how this translates to the trail. Can't do that with a moto (e or gasoline), can I? Is there much depth to riding a moto? I might try out out of curiosity. I've only ever ridden on some Honda Dream scooter thingee when visiting Asia.

  100. #100
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    7,524
    Quote Originally Posted by og-mtb View Post
    Hmmm....maybe he, like many folks who have been riding for a while, have experience with old school DH bikes which pushed those weights.

    In comparison, today's lighter weight bikes are completely awesome.

    The false narrative of "heavy is better" is one of the odder tropes of some of the electric motor bicycle crowd.

    p.s. "There are pitches almost no one can ride, even a class 1 ebike, because they are so steep, and they have infinite traction." It sounds like you aren't riding at the right time or with the right people. Many folks clean the entire Slick Rock on normal bicycles.
    Yeah, I did a ton of DHing bitd on way-too-heavy bikes. I have no interest in reliving the 50+ pound, 2blewides, Gazzi 3"s and Monster T days.
    Sinister Bikes
    Wraith Bicycles
    Sunday River Mtn Bike Park
    NEMBA
    Wachusett Brewing Co.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Why Class 1 and not Class 2?
    By Harryman in forum E-Bikes
    Replies: 76
    Last Post: 10-01-2018, 08:39 AM
  2. Best Swing Away Rack/Any deals on any swing away racks?
    By etl330 in forum Cars and Bike Racks
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 06-09-2014, 07:25 AM
  3. Beginner Class to Sport Class was easy... But....
    By RideMX104 in forum Enduro Racing
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 05-08-2014, 11:13 AM
  4. Mini Ex, 2,000 lb class or 4,000 lb class?
    By tjp in forum Trail Building and Advocacy
    Replies: 39
    Last Post: 03-18-2014, 03:06 PM
  5. Difference between class 1 and class 2 racks?
    By usctom in forum Cars and Bike Racks
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 07-29-2007, 10:30 PM

Members who have read this thread: 176

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

THE SITE

ABOUT MTBR

VISIT US AT

© Copyright 2019 VerticalScope Inc. All rights reserved.