Results 1 to 72 of 72
  1. #1
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    279

    Busting 10 myths about e-bikes

    I am liking this e-bike debate so much more than political ones.

    Here are 10 myths about e-bikes busted.

    For copy write reasons I do not want to copy and past the whole article so here is the link.

    https://peopleforbikes.org/blog/bust...myths-e-bikes/

    Here is one I particularly liked though.

    9. MYTH: E-bike riders don’t know trail etiquette!

    FACT: Sure they do. Most have years of trail experience. The typical e-bike rider is 45–65 years old and generally uninterested in reaching maximum speeds or passing other trail users without proper warning or slowing down.


    Before responding please remember:

    This section is for discussion of eBikes and eBike specific accessories, discussions about legality and such will be moved out of this section or deleted at the Moderators' discretion.

  2. #2
    Bicycles aren't motorized
    Reputation: life behind bars's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    3,894
    Quote Originally Posted by KenPsz View Post
    I am liking this e-bike debate so much more than political ones.

    Here are 10 myths about e-bikes busted.

    For copy write reasons I do not want to copy and past the whole article so here is the link.

    https://peopleforbikes.org/blog/bust...myths-e-bikes/

    Here is one I particularly liked though.

    9. MYTH: E-bike riders don’t know trail etiquette!

    FACT: Sure they do. Most have years of trail experience. The typical e-bike rider is 45–65 years old and generally uninterested in reaching maximum speeds or passing other trail users without proper warning or slowing down.


    Before responding please remember:

    This section is for discussion of eBikes and eBike specific accessories, discussions about legality and such will be moved out of this section or deleted at the Moderators' discretion.



    People For Bikes is hardly an objective source. Thread fail.
    Wanted, SRAM GX 2x11 rear derailleur

    It ain't supposed to be easy.

  3. #3
    Cycologist
    Reputation: chazpat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    4,759
    So since "the typical e-bike rider is 45-65 and generally uninterested in reaching maximum speeds", they should be fine with my proposal to form a new class for emtbs with much lower wattage, much lower cut off speed and assistance only on inclines, right? Make them truly ride like a bicycle?
    Quote Originally Posted by Oh My Sack! View Post
    Remember, there's always quilting and knitting if pedalling becomes too tough.

  4. #4
    Formerly of Kent
    Reputation: Le Duke's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    9,913
    Quote Originally Posted by KenPsz View Post
    I am liking this e-bike debate so much more than political ones.

    Here are 10 myths about e-bikes busted.

    For copy write reasons I do not want to copy and past the whole article so here is the link.

    https://peopleforbikes.org/blog/bust...myths-e-bikes/

    Here is one I particularly liked though.

    9. MYTH: E-bike riders don’t know trail etiquette!

    FACT: Sure they do. Most have years of trail experience. The typical e-bike rider is 45–65 years old and generally uninterested in reaching maximum speeds or passing other trail users without proper warning or slowing down.


    Before responding please remember:

    This section is for discussion of eBikes and eBike specific accessories, discussions about legality and such will be moved out of this section or deleted at the Moderators' discretion.
    If they are uninterested in maximum speed, why do they have a motor on their e-bikes?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Death from Below.

  5. #5
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    279
    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    If they are uninterested in maximum speed, why do they have a motor on their e-bikes?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Now a fair question:

    To get to the top of a downhill easier since climbing sucks and the older you get the more is sucks.

    Although I have recently read on a different bike site that if you can't climb you should just hike. Which gives the impression mountain biking should only be for the young and fit, screw those that have gotten old, built trails, ridden for decades; you've just aged out.

  6. #6
    Bicycles aren't motorized
    Reputation: life behind bars's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    3,894
    Quote Originally Posted by KenPsz View Post
    Now a fair question:

    To get to the top of a downhill easier since climbing sucks and the older you get the more is sucks.

    Although I have recently read on a different bike site that if you can't climb you should just hike. Which gives the impression mountain biking should only be for the young and fit, screw those that have gotten old, built trails, ridden for decades; you've just aged out.




    Aging out is inevitable, e-motorbikes aren't.
    Wanted, SRAM GX 2x11 rear derailleur

    It ain't supposed to be easy.

  7. #7
    Formerly of Kent
    Reputation: Le Duke's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    9,913
    Quote Originally Posted by KenPsz View Post
    Now a fair question:

    To get to the top of a downhill easier since climbing sucks and the older you get the more is sucks.

    Although I have recently read on a different bike site that if you can't climb you should just hike. Which gives the impression mountain biking should only be for the young and fit, screw those that have gotten old, built trails, ridden for decades; you've just aged out.
    I see plenty of old fat dudes on MTBs. Getting to the top of the hill under their own power.

    Maybe you should adjust your attitude, and your fitness will follow. The human body is quite amazing.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Death from Below.

  8. #8
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    279
    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    I see plenty of old fat dudes on MTBs. Getting to the top of the hill under their own power.

    Maybe you should adjust your attitude, and your fitness will follow. The human body is quite amazing.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    I don't need to adjust my attitude I climb a 35lb FS fatbike up hills, just fine thank you.
    I personally am in better shape than most late 20 year olds, but I know that will not last forever. But by all means please tell me how the human body works and can adjust that I have not learned in almost 50 years of life.

    Like many old fat guys pushing 50 if given a choice of suffering or assistance many would choose assistance. Since we have more money than time for a hobby.

    Don't you worry you will continue to see old fat guys suffering to get to the top of hills since we currently have no other choice. But it will it be fun to see the younger crowed get older and see their attitudes change. Or when times change and e-bikes are allowed in more places.

  9. #9
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    462

  10. #10
    Cycologist
    Reputation: chazpat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    4,759
    Quote Originally Posted by KenPsz View Post
    I don't need to adjust my attitude I climb a 35lb FS fatbike up hills, just fine thank you.
    I personally am in better shape than most late 20 year olds, but I know that will not last forever. But by all means please tell me how the human body works and can adjust that I have not learned in almost 50 years of life.

    Like many old fat guys pushing 50 if given a choice of suffering or assistance many would choose assistance. Since we have more money than time for a hobby.

    Don't you worry you will continue to see old fat guys suffering to get to the top of hills since we currently have no other choice. But it will it be fun to see the younger crowed get older and see their attitudes change. Or when times change and e-bikes are allowed in more places.
    btw, a lot of us that you have been arguing with across all these threads are older than you, including me. I notice you still don't want to answer my question.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oh My Sack! View Post
    Remember, there's always quilting and knitting if pedalling becomes too tough.

  11. #11
    mtbr member
    Reputation: J.B. Weld's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    10,792
    Quote Originally Posted by KenPsz View Post
    To get to the top of a downhill easier since climbing sucks and the older you get the more is sucks.

    Speak for yourself, I'm older than you and am competetive with riders half my age, also still improving and establishing new pr's. Climbing does hurt some but it's a good kind of pain, for me anyway.


    As for the article, it seems to be a promotion for electric bikes and #1 is bs. 3-4mph faster on flats and climbs? Who came up with that atbitrary number?
    I brake for stinkbugs

  12. #12
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    279
    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Speak for yourself, I'm older than you and am competetive with riders half my age, also still improving and establishing new pr's. Climbing does hurt some but it's a good kind of pain, for me anyway.


    As for the article, it seems to be a promotion for electric bikes and #1 is bs. 3-4mph faster on flats and climbs? Who came up with that atbitrary number?
    Do you have proof to back you claim #1 is bs? Easy to claim on an anonymous forum that the article is bs, yet they wrote and article.

    As far as climbing I assume you enjoy it but I don't and I know many a rider that shares my view. So right back at you speak for yourself.

    We all know you don't like e-bikes and have a serious bias against them. Beyond your "they have a motor" do you have anything else to add?

  13. #13
    Bicycles aren't motorized
    Reputation: life behind bars's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    3,894
    Quote Originally Posted by KenPsz View Post
    ? Easy to claim on an anonymous forum that the article is bs, yet they wrote and article.





    Have you even bothered to look into who "THEY" are?
    Wanted, SRAM GX 2x11 rear derailleur

    It ain't supposed to be easy.

  14. #14
    mtbr member
    Reputation: J.B. Weld's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    10,792
    Quote Originally Posted by KenPsz View Post
    So right back at you speak for yourself.

    If you read what I wrote you might notice that I was speaking for myself, in fact I specifically mentioned that.
    I brake for stinkbugs

  15. #15
    mtbr member
    Reputation: J.B. Weld's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    10,792
    Quote Originally Posted by KenPsz View Post
    We all know you don't like e-bikes and have a serious bias against them. Beyond your "they have a motor" do you have anything else to add?

    You seem to have a reading comprehension problem, I've no bias against electric bikes and have never mentioned anything about not liking them.
    I brake for stinkbugs

  16. #16
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Posts
    625
    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    If they are uninterested in maximum speed, why do they have a motor on their e-bikes?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    To go farther on a two hour ride, not to be KIng of the Mountain. At 65 it all about seeing more back country in a given time period, not top speed. If I wanted that I’d just buy regular dirt bike........

  17. #17
    mtbr member
    Reputation: hikerdave's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    936
    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Speak for yourself, I'm older than you and am competetive with riders half my age, also still improving and establishing new pr's. Climbing does hurt some but it's a good kind of pain, for me anyway.


    As for the article, it seems to be a promotion for electric bikes and #1 is bs. 3-4mph faster on flats and climbs? Who came up with that atbitrary number?
    Hopefully those new PR’s don’t happen when other users are on the trail. As one of the small group who developed the GPX file format I think of Strava and the like as a sort of red-headed stepchild.

    Speed on flats and climbs - gravity power for 210 pound rider plus bike and gear at 20 mph is 835 watts. Turn 10 percent slope around and an unfit rider could climb at 14 mph on 10 percent slope with 500 motor plus 100 human watts.

    In terms of capability claim 1 is BS - the unfit rider would be climbing at 2.39 mph, which means walking.

    In practice, I only double my climbing speed on a long hill from 4 to 8 mph on the trail because I’m riding for enjoyment and don’t want the trail to end too quickly. Just because I can go much faster doesn’t mean that I do.

  18. #18
    mtbr member
    Reputation: J.B. Weld's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    10,792
    Quote Originally Posted by hikerdave View Post
    Hopefully those new PR’s don’t happen when other users are on the trail. As one of the small group who developed the GPX file format I think of Strava and the like as a sort of red-headed stepchild.

    On 9mph climbs? The trails around here are only sparsely populated with deer, javalina, coyotes, etc but even if there were more humans I doubt that would cause any conflict.

    Also as a (former) ginger I take offense to that
    I brake for stinkbugs

  19. #19
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Posts
    625
    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    I see plenty of old fat dudes on MTBs. Getting to the top of the hill under their own power.

    Maybe you should adjust your attitude, and your fitness will follow. The human body is quite amazing.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    So taxpayers are unable to access state and city trails that they are the actual owners of and that their dollars have paid to acquire and protect? Simply because one pressure group wants to freeze technology at what was available in 1990, despite a total lack of evidence of adverse consequences in areas where Class 1’s are permitted? Those who manage state and municipal recreational areas are servants of the public and will respond to the will of either the majority or of the most powerful minority. If that group is lots of aging boomers with time and money on their hands to apply to convincing their peers in elected office that ebikes are something that they want on public lands then that is what will happen.

    All of this crap about “it’s a good kind of pain” and telling others to just push through it no matter how old they are and what physical issues they may have is irresponsible at the minimum and arrogant at the worst. Unless you are someone’s doctor and have performed a complete physical exam on them recently you have no business telling anyone how they should deal with pain during extreme physical effort over long periods of time. And no one should be judging how much pain someone else should be experiencing or how much is tolerable, no one, with the possible exception of a specialist pain management MD. Are any of you in that category? Telling someone with diagnosed injuries that they should ride with pain in order not to hurt your feelings on hills is borderline psychopathy.

  20. #20
    mtbr member
    Reputation: hikerdave's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    936
    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    So since "the typical e-bike rider is 45-65 and generally uninterested in reaching maximum speeds", they should be fine with my proposal to form a new class for emtbs with much lower wattage, much lower cut off speed ando assistance only on inclines, right? Make them truly ride like a bicycle?
    My 205 pounds plus bike 50 lbs plus gear 5 lbs theoretically needs 310 watts to get up a 15 percent grade at 4 mph but in practice I’ve found that with 500 watts peak my PW-SE powered bike barely makes it.

    Riding a short slope like that is easy on my human-powered bike until the slight twinge I felt in my back turns into raging pain a few hours later.

    The challenge is that with my 500 watts of power on tap I could easily tear down a level trail at 20 mph if I were so inclined. Rider self-restraint is key.
    Last edited by hikerdave; 2 Days Ago at 10:39 AM. Reason: Speling

  21. #21
    mtbr member
    Reputation: J.B. Weld's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    10,792
    All of this crap about “it’s a good kind of pain”...[/QUOTE]

    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Climbing does hurt some but it's a good kind of pain, for me anyway.

    When you quote other people please keep it in the proper context.
    I brake for stinkbugs

  22. #22
    Formerly of Kent
    Reputation: Le Duke's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    9,913
    Quote Originally Posted by WoodlandHills View Post
    So taxpayers are unable to access state and city trails that they are the actual owners of and that their dollars have paid to acquire and protect? Simply because one pressure group wants to freeze technology at what was available in 1990, despite a total lack of evidence of adverse consequences in areas where Class 1’s are permitted? Those who manage state and municipal recreational areas are servants of the public and will respond to the will of either the majority or of the most powerful minority. If that group is lots of aging boomers with time and money on their hands to apply to convincing their peers in elected office that ebikes are something that they want on public lands then that is what will happen.

    All of this crap about “it’s a good kind of pain” and telling others to just push through it no matter how old they are and what physical issues they may have is irresponsible at the minimum and arrogant at the worst. Unless you are someone’s doctor and have performed a complete physical exam on them recently you have no business telling anyone how they should deal with pain during extreme physical effort over long periods of time. And no one should be judging how much pain someone else should be experiencing or how much is tolerable, no one, with the possible exception of a specialist pain management MD. Are any of you in that category? Telling someone with diagnosed injuries that they should ride with pain in order not to hurt your feelings on hills is borderline psychopathy.
    The person I quoted has never mentioned a disability or any other ailment other than a lack of intestinal fortitude.

    I don’t ride my bike in Wilderness areas. I don’t trespass on military training areas. I don’t ride a moto on non-moto trails. I’ve paid for all of those areas, but I also obey the rules set forth by the people that manage those areas. It’s pretty simple.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Death from Below.

  23. #23
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    279
    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    You seem to have a reading comprehension problem, I've no bias against electric bikes and have never mentioned anything about not liking them.
    Your words say otherwise but sure we can go with that.

  24. #24
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    279
    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Speak for yourself, I'm older than you and am competetive with riders half my age, also still improving and establishing new pr's. Climbing does hurt some but it's a good kind of pain, for me anyway.
    Sucky is a term of enjoyment not competition. We all are willing to suffer a bit to be competitive (correct spelling by the way).

    But if you want to say climbing is not sucky and it is getting less sucky as you age, good for you I disagree.

    As I stated above I know many a biker that mirrors my opinion on climbing. Even a guy that is a complete stud climb and can hang with racers hates climbing. I can hang his wheel also. But being able to climb and be competitive does not mean it does not suck.

    Again when your counter argument is "enjoy the pain" that is a losing argument for many. Since pain is the direct opposite of enjoyment for most people and really not a helpful way to bring more people into the hobby. But then again I have been reading the lots of "serious bikers" dislike e-bikes because it might bring more people into the hobby and spoil "their" trails.

  25. #25
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    280
    Quote Originally Posted by KenPsz View Post
    Now a fair question:

    To get to the top of a downhill easier since climbing sucks and the older you get the more is sucks.

    Although I have recently read on a different bike site that if you can't climb you should just hike. Which gives the impression mountain biking should only be for the young and fit, screw those that have gotten old, built trails, ridden for decades; you've just aged out.



    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  26. #26
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    280
    I debated decades ago with some fat ass know it all, that motocross wasn’t a sport because the motorcycle did all the work. Having been a racer for 12 seasons I knew better.

    The e-bike debate is the same. For any cycling enthusiast training doesn’t make it easier, you just go faster. E-bikes will allow those skilled riders past their prime to still bomb the downhills without coughing up a lung on the way up.

    I always said downhills were the payoff for the ride up, but I’ve paid for privilege for close to 40 years and don’t mind a little assist at this point in my life.

    Wake up brothers e-bikes are here to stay and we are not the enemy, most of us were the pathfinders.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  27. #27
    mtbr member
    Reputation: J.B. Weld's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    10,792
    Quote Originally Posted by KenPsz View Post
    Your words say otherwise
    Only in your head, if you quote me verbatim you might see that you are mistaken.



    Quote Originally Posted by KenPsz View Post
    Sucky is a term of enjoyment not competition. We all are willing to suffer a bit to be competitive (correct spelling by the way).

    Good grief, now you're the spelling police? Are you going to critique my grammar next? And what does that first sentence, "Sucky is a term of enjoyment, not competition" mean anyway? Like the rest of your post it seems to have nothing to do with anything I said.

    Ken I'm beginning to think that you just enjoy arguing.
    I brake for stinkbugs

  28. #28
    Cycologist
    Reputation: chazpat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    4,759
    Quote Originally Posted by KenPsz View Post
    Sucky is a term of enjoyment not competition. We all are willing to suffer a bit to be competitive (correct spelling by the way).

    But if you want to say climbing is not sucky and it is getting less sucky as you age, good for you I disagree.

    As I stated above I know many a biker that mirrors my opinion on climbing. Even a guy that is a complete stud climb and can hang with racers hates climbing. I can hang his wheel also. But being able to climb and be competitive does not mean it does not suck.

    Again when your counter argument is "enjoy the pain" that is a losing argument for many. Since pain is the direct opposite of enjoyment for most people and really not a helpful way to bring more people into the hobby. But then again I have been reading the lots of "serious bikers" dislike e-bikes because it might bring more people into the hobby and spoil "their" trails.
    Ok, so you hate bicycles, you've established that. Sorry, cycling is a suffer sport. Why can't you just be happy being an "ebiker"? Why do you and the other bike haters keep trying to claim you are riding a bicycle? Does your ego still want to think you're riding a bicycle even though the truth is you hate riding bicycles? Or do you hope to get access to all those bicycle trails for your ebike by convincing everyone they are bicycles? You're still ignoring my question to you about why not make ebikes behave like bicycles (but still help with the part you find "sucky").
    Quote Originally Posted by Oh My Sack! View Post
    Remember, there's always quilting and knitting if pedalling becomes too tough.

  29. #29
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    279
    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Only in your head, if you quote me verbatim you might see that you are mistaken.
    I have quoted you and read your posts. Now it is possible I have your views wrong I fully admit that. Forums are not the best places to discuss issues if there is any type of disagreement.

    Good grief, now you're the spelling police? Are you going to critique my grammar next? And what does that first sentence,
    Yes I was being a jerk, sorry it is a habit from political forums. I apologize.

    "Sucky is a term of enjoyment, not competition" mean anyway? Like the rest of your post it seems to have nothing to do with anything I said.
    When I stated that climbs suck and they suck more the older you get. You responded with [para phrasing] "speak for yourself I'm competetive with riders half my age". In the quote I have what I view sucky as meaning.

    So yes my response did have something to do with your response. It is your response to my post that had nothing to do with the topic. Since I was in no way shape or form referring too competition. Mountain biking is fun for me not competitive, I gave up the dream of competition for biking 20 years ago since it didn't look like fun.

    Ken I'm beginning to think that you just enjoy arguing.
    Arguing??? No
    But a spirited debate you betcha.

    Now I will admit that I will get caught up in the discussion and become a bit of a jerk, that is par for the course. But I will say there is a group of people here that do mob and attack those that are pro-ebike.
    I am limiting my interactions with them since I have found the ignore list, you are not on the list.

  30. #30
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    855
    Quote Originally Posted by KenPsz View Post
    But then again I have been reading the lots of "serious bikers" dislike e-bikes because it might bring more people into the hobby and spoil "their" trails.
    Two different hobbies. My hobby is mountain biking; biking with a motor is not that. The problem is not those with another hobby on my trails, it is with people like you who seek to eliminate the distinction in order to let motorized on all mountain biking trails...that’s when access is lost. Enjoy your motorbike on paved trails and trails that allow motorcycles...but don’t pretend they’re mountainbikes to piggyback access that was hard fought, and which will fade away when the pubkic starts falsely thinking that mountain bikes have engines...like you do.

  31. #31
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    279
    Quote Originally Posted by Haymarket View Post
    Two different hobbies. My hobby is mountain biking; biking with a motor is not that. The problem is not those with another hobby on my trails, it is with people like you who seek to eliminate the distinction in order to let motorized on all mountain biking trails...that’s when access is lost. Enjoy your motorbike on paved trails and trails that allow motorcycles...but don’t pretend they’re mountainbikes to piggyback access that was hard fought, and which will fade away when the pubkic starts falsely thinking that mountain bikes have engines...like you do.
    See myth #4 in the article, my response is below.

    Oh boy seems another person that has not tried an ebike and thus does not know the differences.

    Not to be picky but there is a technical difference between a motor (electric) and an engine (compression). Seems I am not the only one wanting to blur lines.

    You're right I don't see a distinction since to me a bike is a bike, one just has a bit of assist. This notion notion of the sky is falling the sky is falling that access will be lost is a strawman with no backing.

    Can you at least come up with something original that i have not already responded to with other posters? Something original that has not been discussed in multiple articles and organizations already? Since people like you like it or not are going to see ebikes on the trails its coming slowly but surely just like mountain bikes themselves, front suspension and full suspension.

  32. #32
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    855
    Quote Originally Posted by KenPsz View Post
    Oh my more of the same debate, please see my response is other threads that cover this.

    Thanks
    I have heard them all. They all fall flat. Selfishness of the highest degree drives those who seek to make the two hobbies one and steal access that isn’t theirs, and that will cost others.

  33. #33
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    279
    Quote Originally Posted by Haymarket View Post
    I have heard them all. They all fall flat. Selfishness of the highest degree drives those who seek to make the two hobbies one and steal access that isn’t theirs, and that will cost others.
    LOL!!!! Oh my the entitle ownership claim, how special. Seen this same attitude long ago from hikers and horse folks, guess what is old is now new with a different group.

    Trails are trails you don't own them, but hey like the hikers and horse riders before you fight to keep a user group out is has been so productive.

    Ironic when bikers become like those they had to fight against in the first place because they themselves became entitled in their thinking.
    I remember the days when hikers and horse riders told mountain bikers the trails were theirs and to ride the fire roads or motorcycle trails, same old story just different players.

    https://www.singletracks.com/blog/mt...s-dont-belong/

  34. #34
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    5,124
    Quote Originally Posted by KenPsz View Post
    See myth #4 in the article, my response is below.

    Oh boy seems another person that has not tried an ebike and thus does not know the differences.

    Not to be picky but there is a technical difference between a motor (electric) and an engine (compression). Seems I am not the only one wanting to blur lines.

    You're right I don't see a distinction since to me a bike is a bike, one just has a bit of assist. This notion notion of the sky is falling the sky is falling that access will be lost is a strawman with no backing.

    Can you at least come up with something original that i have not already responded to with other posters? Something original that has not been discussed in multiple articles and organizations already? Since people like you like it or not are going to see ebikes on the trails its coming slowly but surely just like mountain bikes themselves, front suspension and full suspension.
    You do realize that people for bikes is an organization paid for by bike companies to promote the e bike agenda? The term that is used is " motorized' Does it have a motor? Bike don't have motors. This has been hashed out many times before. E bikes on the trails? One would need to change the laws first in many areas. Or will you just poach? I have tried an e bike, that won't change the laws either.

  35. #35
    Cycologist
    Reputation: chazpat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    4,759
    Quote Originally Posted by KenPsz View Post

    Not to be picky but there is a technical difference between a motor (electric) and an engine (compression). Seems I am not the only one wanting to blur lines.
    So therefore a Tesla should be considered a horse-drawn carriage rather than an automobile?

    There is a lot bigger technical difference between a true bicycle and a bicycle that has a motor for propulsion (electric or not).
    Quote Originally Posted by Oh My Sack! View Post
    Remember, there's always quilting and knitting if pedalling becomes too tough.

  36. #36
    mtbr member
    Reputation: hikerdave's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    936
    Quote Originally Posted by Haymarket View Post
    I have heard them all. They all fall flat. Selfishness of the highest degree drives those who seek to make the two hobbies one and steal access that isn’t theirs, and that will cost others.
    At my local trail a few no e-bikes stickers on the sign posts went up, so I called the land manager who sent out his rangers to take down the unlawful signs, because e-bikes are allowed. So in this case someone was stealing -my- legal access to the trail.

    I knew a dirt biker who liked to remind me that some of my favorite mountain bike trails were once moto trails. They lost access primarily because of air quality regulations; states and local governments lose federal money when dust and ozone levels become too high. This isn’t a factor with an e-bike. Neither is noise. Speed is debatable; uphill speed is faster up to a point.

    Many of the reasons for closing off access to motorcycles just don’t apply to class I electric assist mountain bikes so I think that more jurisdictions will open access; after all, their business is to serve the public and e-bikes are becoming very popular; already ten percent of wholesale in the bike industry and growing quickly.

  37. #37
    Bicycles aren't motorized
    Reputation: life behind bars's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    3,894
    Quote Originally Posted by hikerdave View Post
    e-bikes are becoming very popular; already ten percent of wholesale in the bike industry and growing quickly.



    Most of those will never leave the pavement.
    Wanted, SRAM GX 2x11 rear derailleur

    It ain't supposed to be easy.

  38. #38
    mtbr member
    Reputation: veloborealis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    1,501
    Quote Originally Posted by KenPsz View Post
    I don't need to adjust my attitude I climb a 35lb FS fatbike up hills, just fine thank you.
    I personally am in better shape than most late 20 year olds, but I know that will not last forever. But by all means please tell me how the human body works and can adjust that I have not learned in almost 50 years of life.

    Like many old fat guys pushing 50 if given a choice of suffering or assistance many would choose assistance. Since we have more money than time for a hobby.

    Don't you worry you will continue to see old fat guys suffering to get to the top of hills since we currently have no other choice. But it will it be fun to see the younger crowed get older and see their attitudes change. Or when times change and e-bikes are allowed in more places.
    Please excuse me if this story sounds quaint and old fashioned. I bought my first mtb in 1981, but stopped riding for a time in the early '90s for all the usual reasons: grad school, career, family. By 2006, I was 50, 30lbs overweight and a smoker. A car accident had left me with screws and a plate in my left leg where the docs patched up a shattered femur, pelvis, and hip joint.

    In 2007 I quit smoking and decided to start bike commuting to ease back into cycling. I discovered early hub conversion ebikes online and was strongly leaning toward getting one. Hoping to one day return to mtb, I began to research trail access and learned they were not allowed on the trails I wanted to ride, including the rail trail that was to serve as my main commuting route. I probably could have poached it, but I did not want to be "that guy".

    Long story short, I got a Surly LHT and started riding 6 miles one way to work. It wasn't easy, at first, but I loved it and immediately started gaining fitness. In 2009, I moved back to Nome, Alaska for work and took my Surly with me along with a renewed love of cycling. This was about the time I discovered MTBR and fatbikes.

    I bought a Fatback and started riding dog mushing and snow machine trails in the winter, beaches and abandoned mining trails in the summer. I went out in all kinds of weather, but generally followed the 20-20 rule. Stay home when it's 20 below zero and the wind is over 20 mph. By then I was down 30 lbs, getting faster and gaining endurance.

    I'm 62 now, semi-retired, riding a FS trail bike, and living in Arizona since 2016. I'll never be fast, but I can do 50 mile rides with 7000+ feet of climbing. Takes me 10 hours, but so what. What's the point of this story?

    When I decided I wanted to ride trails, I got a bike that was legal for the trails I wanted to ride. I did not expect the rules to change for me. And if I could start riding a regular bike in the condition I was in back in 2007, almost anyone can and be better for it. Is riding an ebike cheating? No, but poaching non-motorized trails on one certainly is. You would have to feel pretty damned entitled to think it's OK.
    Veni vidi velo!

  39. #39
    Cycologist
    Reputation: chazpat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    4,759
    You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to veloborealis again.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oh My Sack! View Post
    Remember, there's always quilting and knitting if pedalling becomes too tough.

  40. #40
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    852
    i don't give a shit about how fast or in shape anyone else is, i just like my levo cuz it's pretty quick uphill and i have been riding way more singletrack. It is like cheating though if you don't pay attention and peddle hard

  41. #41
    mtbr member
    Reputation: J.B. Weld's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    10,792
    Quote Originally Posted by natrat View Post
    i don't give a shit about how fast or in shape anyone else is

    Same here brother, I'm only concerned with my own affairs.
    I brake for stinkbugs

  42. #42
    mtbr member
    Reputation: J.B. Weld's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    10,792
    I skimmed the ebike advertisement in the op, a few good points were made but zeros myths were busted.
    I brake for stinkbugs

  43. #43
    mtbr member
    Reputation: LyNx's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    23,388
    I'll most likely waste my time again and ask the "stupid", "silly" question of you or any other "legit" e-biker who isn't full of $hit...... How do you regulate who's running a legal e-bike, class1 and who's running a hacked e-bike, class1? Won't even get it how you differentiate between class1, 2 or 3.

    If but one e-bike "lover" would give this answer, a realistic answer, I think all would appreciate it.

    Quote Originally Posted by hikerdave View Post
    ...................Many of the reasons for closing off access to motorcycles just don’t apply to class I electric assist mountain bikes so I think that more jurisdictions will open access; after all, their business is to serve the public and e-bikes are becoming very popular; already ten percent of wholesale in the bike industry and growing quickly.
    One day your life will flash before your eyes, will it be worth watching??

  44. #44
    Moderator Moderator
    Reputation: Harryman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    2,369
    Quote Originally Posted by KenPsz View Post
    You're right I don't see a distinction since to me a bike is a bike, one just has a bit of assist.
    Good luck convincing me that 750w is a "bit of assist" from a 250w motor.



    https://www.emtbforums.com/community...ut.1300/page-2

    A 750w motor can easily top out at 1500w, which is legal in the US. I don't understand the reticence to just acknowledge they're not a bicycle, they're a new form of a motorized bicycle and simply lobby for their access as such. None of the land managers here are buying the fairytale that they're just like a mountain bike, so it's unlikely they will ever get access on singletrack.

  45. #45
    mtbr member
    Reputation: sfgiantsfan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    1,988
    Quote Originally Posted by LyNx View Post
    I'll most likely waste my time again and ask the "stupid", "silly" question of you or any other "legit" e-biker who isn't full of $hit...... How do you regulate who's running a legal e-bike, class1 and who's running a hacked e-bike, class1? Won't even get it how you differentiate between class1, 2 or 3.

    If but one e-bike "lover" would give this answer, a realistic answer, I think all would appreciate it.
    You're a hater
    I'm sick of all the Irish stereotypes, as soon as I finish this beer I"m punching someone

  46. #46
    Moderator Moderator
    Reputation: Walt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    7,238
    I could basically care less. If the EU standards had been adopted for class 1 and there was some sort of way to enforce them, I'd probably be all for it. 250W and 15mph is plenty to get even the laziest elderly person up any hill they'd want to ride.

    As it is, none of the land managers in my area want anything to do with them. We've already had hot-rodded and DIY 3000w bikes show up and we don't have the resources to inspect people's rides. So they are just blanket banned.

    I mean, I don't "hate" motos either. I used to own a bunch of them. They're appropriate in some places and not others. Just like e-bikes. Just like normal bikes. That's not "hate", IMO.

    -Walt

  47. #47
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    279
    Quote Originally Posted by Walt View Post
    I could basically care less. If the EU standards had been adopted for class 1 and there was some sort of way to enforce them, I'd probably be all for it. 250W and 15mph is plenty to get even the laziest elderly person up any hill they'd want to ride.

    As it is, none of the land managers in my area want anything to do with them. We've already had hot-rodded and DIY 3000w bikes show up and we don't have the resources to inspect people's rides. So they are just blanket banned.

    I mean, I don't "hate" motos either. I used to own a bunch of them. They're appropriate in some places and not others. Just like e-bikes. Just like normal bikes. That's not "hate", IMO.

    -Walt
    Companies like Luna Cycles are not doing this biking segment any favors, with there 2500+ watt "insane" systems.

    I was looking at a 250watt system for $900 a year ago until I bought a 750 watt system from Luna for significantly less. For a commuter bike mind you so that those that want to get their panties in a bunch about a 750watt mountain bike can unclinch.

    What you have stated Walt is not hate is a statement of what is happening and the issues that need to be addressed. But just do a google search for "hate ebikes" and you will find a lot of hatred, both road and mountain bike related. Many of the same rationality for the hatred that I have read here along with people making physical threats. It is all crazy especially when those the seem to be looking at ebikes the most are older bikers that are far from noobs on the road or trails.

  48. #48
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    279
    Quote Originally Posted by veloborealis View Post
    Please excuse me if this story sounds quaint and old fashioned. I bought my first mtb in 1981, but stopped riding for a time in the early '90s for all the usual reasons: grad school, career, family. By 2006, I was 50, 30lbs overweight and a smoker. A car accident had left me with screws and a plate in my left leg where the docs patched up a shattered femur, pelvis, and hip joint.

    In 2007 I quit smoking and decided to start bike commuting to ease back into cycling. I discovered early hub conversion ebikes online and was strongly leaning toward getting one. Hoping to one day return to mtb, I began to research trail access and learned they were not allowed on the trails I wanted to ride, including the rail trail that was to serve as my main commuting route. I probably could have poached it, but I did not want to be "that guy".

    Long story short, I got a Surly LHT and started riding 6 miles one way to work. It wasn't easy, at first, but I loved it and immediately started gaining fitness. In 2009, I moved back to Nome, Alaska for work and took my Surly with me along with a renewed love of cycling. This was about the time I discovered MTBR and fatbikes.

    I bought a Fatback and started riding dog mushing and snow machine trails in the winter, beaches and abandoned mining trails in the summer. I went out in all kinds of weather, but generally followed the 20-20 rule. Stay home when it's 20 below zero and the wind is over 20 mph. By then I was down 30 lbs, getting faster and gaining endurance.

    I'm 62 now, semi-retired, riding a FS trail bike, and living in Arizona since 2016. I'll never be fast, but I can do 50 mile rides with 7000+ feet of climbing. Takes me 10 hours, but so what. What's the point of this story?

    When I decided I wanted to ride trails, I got a bike that was legal for the trails I wanted to ride. I did not expect the rules to change for me. And if I could start riding a regular bike in the condition I was in back in 2007, almost anyone can and be better for it. Is riding an ebike cheating? No, but poaching non-motorized trails on one certainly is. You would have to feel pretty damned entitled to think it's OK.
    I have seen this claim of poaching trails quite regularly here and other places yet I have seen no statements by folks saying they do or plan on doing such a thing. Where i live there is a hiking only trail that decades ago did allow bikes. People poach that trail years on (gasp mountain bikes) with no regard for the rules. It stopped once the fines got high enough and enough were issued.

    I do like the "entailed" comment though when I have read mountain bikers make statements like "stay off my trails" as if they own the trails. This whole debate is about entitlement and is ironic that many a mountain biker has the same entitled attitude about trails that hikers and horse folks used decades ago to try and keep mountain bikes off of trails.

  49. #49
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    279
    Quote Originally Posted by leeboh View Post
    You do realize that people for bikes is an organization paid for by bike companies to promote the e bike agenda? The term that is used is " motorized' Does it have a motor? Bike don't have motors. This has been hashed out many times before. E bikes on the trails? One would need to change the laws first in many areas. Or will you just poach? I have tried an e bike, that won't change the laws either.
    OK and????? They are working on changing the rules and if the means "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" than so be it. Since I am really getting irritated by the folks that make up this hobby and there snotty entitled attitudes that are very much like road riders. If the rules change and it piss off you snotty entitled folks that will make me happy, since to me you violate the welcoming and friendly attitude that mountain bikers have traditionally had.

    I do love the 4 year old word games with "motor" + "bike" = "motorbike" how cute. If you have tried a ebike you would know that word game is false, so I call your claim you have tried one as B.S.

    You might want to update your definitions to what the federal government standards.

    https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/s...20v3%20(1).pdf

  50. #50
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    5,124
    I don't care what or where you ride, just ride legal. And you're quoting DOT rules and CSP rules, nothing which apply to off road trails in the woods, on state or federal property. I'm the nicest guy on the trail, always. I even pet dogs. Really. The term is motorized, just look at what the land mangers and rule makers have decided on that term. Tell me an e-bike doesn't have a motor? Our opinions here matter not, it's the current rules on the books. They might change, maybe. So be it. Be the wheel.

  51. #51
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    279
    Quote Originally Posted by leeboh View Post
    I don't care what or where you ride, just ride legal. And you're quoting DOT rules and CSP rules, nothing which apply to off road trails in the woods, on state or federal property. I'm the nicest guy on the trail, always. I even pet dogs. Really. The term is motorized, just look at what the land mangers and rule makers have decided on that term. Tell me an e-bike doesn't have a motor? Our opinions here matter not, it's the current rules on the books. They might change, maybe. So be it. Be the wheel.
    What's funny about folks like you that keep spitting out "your opinions don't matter" is this. If they did not matter you would not respond like pavlov's dog. So seem you posted another lie.

    Oh and I have read plenty on the land manager and rule makes have decided, it's a mixed bag. There is a conflict between the two Federal definitions applied to the same devices.

    So you're just a snotty entitled mountain biker online?

  52. #52
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    5,124
    Enjoy your motorized vehicle on the bike paths. Cheers.

  53. #53
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    279
    Quote Originally Posted by leeboh View Post
    Enjoy your motorized vehicle on the bike paths. Cheers.
    I will enjoy my e-bike

    thanks

  54. #54
    Make America Bike Again
    Reputation: richj8990's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Posts
    1,420
    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Speak for yourself, I'm older than you and am competetive with riders half my age, also still improving and establishing new pr's. Climbing does hurt some but it's a good kind of pain, for me anyway.


    As for the article, it seems to be a promotion for electric bikes and #1 is bs. 3-4mph faster on flats and climbs? Who came up with that atbitrary number?

    It's hard to know exactly how much faster they are unless you time the same rider with a normal and e-bike with the same app.

    Problem is that at least on Strava, if you set the ride to e-bike, it will not show any segment times, at least off-pavement. So as I'm typing in this MTBR tab, I'm toggling over to the Strava tab and have to edit a previous e-bike ride up the same hill as a normal bike ride, look at the mph, watts, time, etc., and then like a good boy, set it back to an e-bike ride and that segment disappears.

    Normally on a particular level 4 climb with a regular bike: 0.68 miles, 366 feet up, 10% grade, I do it in about 16 minutes @2.6 mph (yes I am very slow), 133 natural pedal watts.

    The e-bike did it in 9 1/2 minutes @4.3 mph, 220 calculated watts, but that's obviously wrong since I had 190-300W of e-power on and probably did another 100 or so watts of pedal power.

    So...in this case the e-bike bit less than 2 mph faster on hills FOR THE SAME RIDER. And I'd say I was at about 70-80% max power before the tire would slip, so maybe best-case scenario for my front-drive setup I could average maybe 6 mph up, which is 3 1/2 mph faster than 100% human pedaling. 3-4 mph faster. Which means the article is correct, if someone really wanted to ride up the hill as fast as tractionally possible with e-power on (I was trying to save some battery juice, still had another 800 feet to go up the mountain after this 1st hill). BTW the fastest 100% human-powered rider on this climb averaged 8.2 mph, faster than what my e-bike can probably do. But that's an outlier, the vast majority of riders climb much slower than 6 mph on a level 4 hill. Only 27 out of 830 logged riders climbed faster than 6.0 mph. Only the top 3.3% mountain biking athletes could, at least on this level 4 hill, 10% grade, beat a cheap $1100 e-bike setup. No complete data for riders 1 and 2; rider 3 was 7.6 mph on 100% human power, 176 calculated bpm, 340W calculated human power.

    On an entire loop, with a normal bike I average 4.5-7.5 mph, e-bike 8-10 mph, which is again 3-4 mph faster on a more flat surface. For the same rider, that is a key point.

    This doesn't mean everyone should go out and buy an e-bike. It just means that e-bikes are a little bit faster. But why would someone NOT think that an e-bike is faster? If they were not faster, there is no point in many/most people riding them. You really think people spend extra money to make their bike weigh 20 lbs more just to be the same speed as a normal bike? No...as Mr. Bickle on here would say, try again.
    Gallia est omnis divisa in partes tres: quod Belgiae, quod Celtae, et quod Aquitainae.

  55. #55
    mtbr member
    Reputation: J.B. Weld's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    10,792
    Quote Originally Posted by richj8990 View Post

    The e-bike did it in 9 1/2 minutes @4.3 mph, 220 calculated watts, but that's obviously wrong since I had 190-300W of e-power on and probably did another 100 or so watts of pedal power.


    220w sounds about right to me if rider and bike weight is approximately 200-220#. Was there a lightning bolt next to the #3 riders time? Lightning bolt means actual (not estimated) power. I'm guessing the kom was pushing 360-375w, which is an incredible effort.

    Can't you create your own segments on strava's ebike category?
    I brake for stinkbugs

  56. #56
    Cycologist
    Reputation: chazpat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    4,759
    Quote Originally Posted by richj8990 View Post
    It's hard to know exactly how much faster they are unless you time the same rider with a normal and e-bike with the same app.

    Problem is that at least on Strava, if you set the ride to e-bike, it will not show any segment times, at least off-pavement. So as I'm typing in this MTBR tab, I'm toggling over to the Strava tab and have to edit a previous e-bike ride up the same hill as a normal bike ride, look at the mph, watts, time, etc., and then like a good boy, set it back to an e-bike ride and that segment disappears.

    Normally on a particular level 4 climb with a regular bike: 0.68 miles, 366 feet up, 10% grade, I do it in about 16 minutes @2.6 mph (yes I am very slow), 133 natural pedal watts.

    The e-bike did it in 9 1/2 minutes @4.3 mph, 220 calculated watts, but that's obviously wrong since I had 190-300W of e-power on and probably did another 100 or so watts of pedal power.

    So...in this case the e-bike bit less than 2 mph faster on hills FOR THE SAME RIDER. And I'd say I was at about 70-80% max power before the tire would slip, so maybe best-case scenario for my front-drive setup I could average maybe 6 mph up, which is 3 1/2 mph faster than 100% human pedaling. 3-4 mph faster. Which means the article is correct, if someone really wanted to ride up the hill as fast as tractionally possible with e-power on (I was trying to save some battery juice, still had another 800 feet to go up the mountain after this 1st hill). BTW the fastest 100% human-powered rider on this climb averaged 8.2 mph, faster than what my e-bike can probably do. But that's an outlier, the vast majority of riders climb much slower than 6 mph on a level 4 hill. Only 27 out of 830 logged riders climbed faster than 6.0 mph. Only the top 3.3% mountain biking athletes could, at least on this level 4 hill, 10% grade, beat a cheap $1100 e-bike setup. No complete data for riders 1 and 2; rider 3 was 7.6 mph on 100% human power, 176 calculated bpm, 340W calculated human power.

    On an entire loop, with a normal bike I average 4.5-7.5 mph, e-bike 8-10 mph, which is again 3-4 mph faster on a more flat surface. For the same rider, that is a key point.

    This doesn't mean everyone should go out and buy an e-bike. It just means that e-bikes are a little bit faster. But why would someone NOT think that an e-bike is faster? If they were not faster, there is no point in many/most people riding them. You really think people spend extra money to make their bike weigh 20 lbs more just to be the same speed as a normal bike? No...as Mr. Bickle on here would say, try again.
    Ah, but do those speeds/times as a percentage and they are pretty big differences. But at least Rich is admitting that it is about having a motor experience rather than a bicycle experience and thus answers the question I have tasked the ebikers with that they ignore: why don't they push for a new class for emtbs that would make them more like the bicycles that they claim they are, lower power and cut-off and assist only on climbs since so many claim it is about just getting a little help and being able to keep up with their friends. A few have admitted that they aren't willing to give up the higher speed the ebike brings, but most won't. If they want to go faster, fine, but don't try to claim they are bicycles and should be allowed where ever bicycles are allowed. Again, some trails, ok, all trails, not ok.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oh My Sack! View Post
    Remember, there's always quilting and knitting if pedalling becomes too tough.

  57. #57
    mtbr member
    Reputation: veloborealis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    1,501
    Quote Originally Posted by KenPsz View Post
    I have seen this claim of poaching trails quite regularly here and other places yet I have seen no statements by folks saying they do or plan on doing such a thing. Where i live there is a hiking only trail that decades ago did allow bikes. People poach that trail years on (gasp mountain bikes) with no regard for the rules. It stopped once the fines got high enough and enough were issued.

    I do like the "entailed" comment though when I have read mountain bikers make statements like "stay off my trails" as if they own the trails. This whole debate is about entitlement and is ironic that many a mountain biker has the same entitled attitude about trails that hikers and horse folks used decades ago to try and keep mountain bikes off of trails.
    If you don't poach or advocate poaching non-motorized trails on an ebike, I have no beef with you or your ebike. But plenty of other e-holes on your forum seem to feel entitled to do just that. I'm curious why you spend so much time posting about "ebike hate" when the only issue that evokes anything close to that level of opposition is illegal use.

    If your vehicle is legal you don't have to justify or apologize for the use of that vehicle to anyone. Like someone else said, I'm starting to think you just like to argue. And maybe you're just a little miffed that some people have the nerve to call your expensive new toy a cheater bike. You seem quick to assume that the disdain some serious cyclists have for ebikes is ego-driven. Perhaps your obvious umbrage is ego-driven, as well?
    Veni vidi velo!

  58. #58
    mtbr member
    Reputation: hikerdave's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    936
    Quote Originally Posted by leeboh View Post
    I don't care what or where you ride, just ride legal. And you're quoting DOT rules and CSP rules, nothing which apply to off road trails in the woods, on state or federal property. I'm the nicest guy on the trail, always. I even pet dogs. Really. The term is motorized, just look at what the land mangers and rule makers have decided on that term. Tell me an e-bike doesn't have a motor? Our opinions here matter not, it's the current rules on the books. They might change, maybe. So be it. Be the wheel.
    The National Forests and BLM can’t change the travel management rule to excluded e-bikes from the definition of motorized vehicles without an executive order amending executive order 11644, promulgated by Richard Nixon in 1972 and later amended by Jimmy Carter in 1977, because that’s the legal basis for these rules.

    However, the president can with the stroke of a pen change an executive order at any time.
    Last edited by hikerdave; 21 Hours Ago at 05:43 AM.

  59. #59
    mtbr member
    Reputation: LyNx's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    23,388
    Wow, as expected, NONE of the e-bike proponents will answer this one simple question, just try to retort with lame excuses like this

    FYI, I don't hate e-bikes, I think that they're actually fantastic for commuting and to assist those who honestly and sincerely need assistance. What I do dislike immensely is those who try to lump them in with bicycles and claim that they are the same and that somehow their motor is different to any other motor in not being a motor

    Quote Originally Posted by sfgiantsfan View Post
    You're a hater
    One day your life will flash before your eyes, will it be worth watching??

  60. #60
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    5,124
    Quote Originally Posted by hikerdave View Post
    The National Forests and BLM can’t change the travel management rule to exclude e-bikes without an executive order amending executive order 11644, promulgated by Richard Nixon in 1972 and later amended by Jimmy Carter in 1977, because that’s the legal basis for these rules.

    However, the president can with the stroke of a pen change an executive order at any time.
    They are not excluding anything. There are already regs concerning motorized vehicles, access and the areas they are permitted. I understand there are lots of those areas in some of the BLM lands.

  61. #61
    Cycologist
    Reputation: chazpat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    4,759
    Quote Originally Posted by LyNx View Post
    Wow, as expected, NONE of the e-bike proponents will answer this one simple question, just try to retort with lame excuses like this

    FYI, I don't hate e-bikes, I think that they're actually fantastic for commuting and to assist those who honestly and sincerely need assistance. What I do dislike immensely is those who try to lump them in with bicycles and claim that they are the same and that somehow their motor is different to any other motor in not being a motor
    They ignore my questions as well. Also the suggestions I've made as to how they could improve their relations with mountain bikers and make their bikes more welcome. I'm tempted to make a correlation between their efforts on and off the trails.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oh My Sack! View Post
    Remember, there's always quilting and knitting if pedalling becomes too tough.

  62. #62
    mtbr member
    Reputation: hikerdave's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    936
    Quote Originally Posted by leeboh View Post
    They are not excluding anything. There are already regs concerning motorized vehicles, access and the areas they are permitted. I understand there are lots of those areas in some of the BLM lands.
    Oops, what I meant to write and corrected was “exclude e-bikes from the definition of motorized vehicles”. Forest service hands are tied by Nixon’s executive order on motorized vehicles and OHVs which ultimately led to the TMR. Public law 86-517 mandates multiple use, with one of the uses being the broad category of “outdoor recreation”.

    There are OHV areas within two hours drive. I’m one of a fortunate few who can hop on my e-bike, ride to the trailhead and ride legally (according to state law as interpreted by the park manager, with whom I have personally spoken).

    I would rather ride my mountain bike, but I quit trail riding and bicycle commuting when my SI joint arthritis became too severe.

    Here in Arizona and out in the West are millions and millions of acres of forest, range and desert where no one would be bothered by an e-bike and very little if any, additional damage relative to mountain bikes would occur. I’ve ridden my mountain bikes on forest trails where I didn’t see another soul.

    No one could have built a quiet 45 pound full-suspension bike in 1972 and we’re still being governed by Nixon’s executive order restricting motor vehicles and by the sensibilities of people living on the East Coast where public land is a scarce resource; Utah, Montana, Idaho, and Arizona where I’ve mostly lived have concentrated populared areas but are otherwise wide open. Not so much in Massachusetts where I was born.

  63. #63
    Cycologist
    Reputation: chazpat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    4,759
    Quote Originally Posted by hikerdave View Post
    Oops, what I meant to write and corrected was “exclude e-bikes from the definition of motorized vehicles”. Forest service hands are tied by Nixon’s executive order on motorized vehicles and OHVs which ultimately led to the TMR. Public law 86-517 mandates multiple use, with one of the uses being the broad category of “outdoor recreation”.

    There are OHV areas within two hours drive. I’m one of a fortunate few who can hop on my e-bike, ride to the trailhead and ride legally (according to state law as interpreted by the park manager, with whom I have personally spoken).

    I would rather ride my mountain bike, but I quit trail riding and bicycle commuting when my SI joint arthritis became too severe.

    Here in Arizona and out in the West are millions and millions of acres of forest, range and desert where no one would be bothered by an e-bike and very little if any, additional damage relative to mountain bikes would occur. I’ve ridden my mountain bikes on forest trails where I didn’t see another soul.

    No one could have built a quiet 45 pound full-suspension bike in 1972 and we’re still being governed by Nixon’s executive order restricting motor vehicles and by the sensibilities of people living on the East Coast where public land is a scarce resource; Utah, Montana, Idaho, and Arizona where I’ve mostly lived have concentrated populared areas but are otherwise wide open. Not so much in Massachusetts where I was born.
    Thank you for this post. It sounds like you understand that situations vary, depending on where you are. As I've said, I think ebikes are fine on some trails, just like where you ride. But I am on the East Coast in a metro area. The trails I usually ride are tight, twisty and pretty heavily populated. Passing definitely happens but I think greatly increasing the amount of passing by introducing a user group that travels at a higher speed will cause issues, such as blowing out the trails wider. And yes, I will be honest, not an ego thing but being passed is disruptive to riding; a few times on a 5 mile loop is one thing but if having to stop or slow down and get out of the way constantly, it will damage the experience for me. These trails were built and are maintained by mountain bikers. This is why I am against a blanket "ebikes are bicycles and should be allowed wherever bicycles are allowed". Let the land managers decided what is appropriate.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oh My Sack! View Post
    Remember, there's always quilting and knitting if pedalling becomes too tough.

  64. #64
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    5,124
    Quote Originally Posted by hikerdave View Post
    Oops, what I meant to write and corrected was “exclude e-bikes from the definition of motorized vehicles”. Forest service hands are tied by Nixon’s executive order on motorized vehicles and OHVs which ultimately led to the TMR. Public law 86-517 mandates multiple use, with one of the uses being the broad category of “outdoor recreation”.

    There are OHV areas within two hours drive. I’m one of a fortunate few who can hop on my e-bike, ride to the trailhead and ride legally (according to state law as interpreted by the park manager, with whom I have personally spoken).

    I would rather ride my mountain bike, but I quit trail riding and bicycle commuting when my SI joint arthritis became too severe.

    Here in Arizona and out in the West are millions and millions of acres of forest, range and desert where no one would be bothered by an e-bike and very little if any, additional damage relative to mountain bikes would occur. I’ve ridden my mountain bikes on forest trails where I didn’t see another soul.

    No one could have built a quiet 45 pound full-suspension bike in 1972 and we’re still being governed by Nixon’s executive order restricting motor vehicles and by the sensibilities of people living on the East Coast where public land is a scarce resource; Utah, Montana, Idaho, and Arizona where I’ve mostly lived have concentrated populared areas but are otherwise wide open. Not so much in Massachusetts where I was born.
    Makes sense. Local rules as fitting the riding area. The broad sweeping categories are hard to fit across the board.

  65. #65
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Crankout's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    2,760
    Quote Originally Posted by KenPsz View Post
    Now a fair question:

    To get to the top of a downhill easier since climbing sucks and the older you get the more is sucks.

    Although I have recently read on a different bike site that if you can't climb you should just hike. Which gives the impression mountain biking should only be for the young and fit, screw those that have gotten old, built trails, ridden for decades; you've just aged out.

    Age isn't truly a factor unless you decide to get lazy and not take care of yourself. Plenty of us older guys continue to race and climb just fine.
    Stick around if you're housebroken...

  66. #66
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    279
    Quote Originally Posted by Crankout View Post
    Age isn't truly a factor unless you decide to get lazy and not take care of yourself. Plenty of us older guys continue to race and climb just fine.
    Well good for you don't buy an e-bike then, but not everyone is or wants to be like you.

    I particularly love the entitled snotty "get lazy" type comments those are such winners.

    I am getting the distinct feeling that many of your ilk feel very threatened and know that if given a choice people will not listen to your fitness nonsense since they want to have fun. For some reason your ilk needs to judge yourself by how you can control other peoples lives and compare your life to theirs.

    Ride what you want to ride and let other people ride what they want. As long as someone is not douchebag on the trails there is no issue.

  67. #67
    Bicycles aren't motorized
    Reputation: life behind bars's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    3,894
    Quote Originally Posted by KenPsz View Post
    Well good for you don't buy an e-bike then, but not everyone is or wants to be like you.

    I particularly love the entitled snotty "get lazy" type comments those are such winners.



    There's no "entitled" attitude coming from the motorized crowd though.
    Wanted, SRAM GX 2x11 rear derailleur

    It ain't supposed to be easy.

  68. #68
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    718
    An ebike can have a wind up motor for all that matters and People for Bikes can claim that the motor is harmless till the sun comes up.....
    3 Bikes to rule them all
    2013 Scott Genius SL
    2017 Yeti ASRC
    2017 Octane One Zircus

  69. #69
    mtbr member
    Reputation: hikerdave's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    936
    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    Thank you for this post. It sounds like you understand that situations vary, depending on where you are. As I've said, I think ebikes are fine on some trails, just like where you ride. But I am on the East Coast in a metro area. The trails I usually ride are tight, twisty and pretty heavily populated. Passing definitely happens but I think greatly increasing the amount of passing by introducing a user group that travels at a higher speed will cause issues, such as blowing out the trails wider. And yes, I will be honest, not an ego thing but being passed is disruptive to riding; a few times on a 5 mile loop is one thing but if having to stop or slow down and get out of the way constantly, it will damage the experience for me. These trails were built and are maintained by mountain bikers. This is why I am against a blanket "ebikes are bicycles and should be allowed wherever bicycles are allowed". Let the land managers decided what is appropriate.
    I met a couple of mountain bikers who called me “The Soul Crusher” for having an e-bike. They told me that they thought it was fine with them that e-bikes are out there. Later, they seemed quite pleased when they actually passed me on the trail.

    But in the wrong hands an e-bike can be a menace to other users. I’m actually amazed that most trails in Arizona are open even to mountain bikes; I guess that most hikers here are the tolerant sort.

    I didn’t even get the stinkeye even once at the Sedona Mountain Bike festival. I preemptively apologized to some hikers close to the festival for our numbers, but they, a couple of thirty-something women, didn’t care.

    Once I crossed a raging Oak Creek under the watchful eye of an 80 year old German woman at the Midgely Bridge who assured me that it could be done; she had earlier given me some helpful trail information.

    But I did get the old stinkeye about once a day on my mountain bike and on my last ride with my daughter she was snarked at after stopping to let a woman pass who saw her and went straight up the center of the very wide and smooth trail. Probably just some internalized mysogyny at work.

    A feeling of inferiority analagous to that I have always had when riding my mountain bike - in the back of my mind has been the question? Do I and others like me belong here? Only now with the e-bike that feeling is intensified, but my money is spent and there’s a Haibike in the garage, not a Honda, so I’ll ride it where I can.

  70. #70
    mtbr member
    Reputation: hikerdave's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    936
    Not trying to argue that every e-bike rider will be a saint, by the way; quite a few trails should get the dreaded no-e-bikes sticker but I hope that land managers will be judicious with their application.

  71. #71
    Bicycles aren't motorized
    Reputation: life behind bars's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    3,894
    Quote Originally Posted by hikerdave View Post
    Not trying to argue that every e-bike rider will be a saint, by the way; quite a few trails should get the dreaded no-e-bikes sticker but I hope that land managers will be judicious with their application.



    You sir, are in the wrong sub-forum. Sanity is no longer acceptable in this one.
    Wanted, SRAM GX 2x11 rear derailleur

    It ain't supposed to be easy.

  72. #72
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Posts
    42
    Age specifically might not be an issue, but injuries (both significant and accumulated), and general degeneration are. You may have won the genetic and environmental lotteries, but many have not. Which reminds me, I hiked some today (was scouting some new trails to cut), wonder if vitamin I can get the swelling down before tomorrow.

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 3
    Last Post: 08-23-2013, 10:20 AM
  2. Myths and the Reality of stripping Powder Coating from a frame
    By dustyduke22 in forum Bike and Frame discussion
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 02-13-2013, 06:47 PM
  3. Mountain Bike Myths Debunked
    By mountain_bomber156 in forum General Discussion
    Replies: 183
    Last Post: 01-11-2013, 01:57 PM
  4. Titanium myths and facts!
    By The Grimmer in forum Downhill - Freeride
    Replies: 20
    Last Post: 06-13-2012, 04:28 AM
  5. Carbon myths dispelled.
    By sopwithcamel in forum Titus
    Replies: 18
    Last Post: 11-18-2011, 01:04 AM

Members who have read this thread: 117

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

THE SITE

ABOUT MTBR

VISIT US AT

© Copyright 2018 VerticalScope Inc. All rights reserved.