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  1. #1
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    Please help in dealing with local bike shop

    I broke my carbon Enve rear wheel, which was stock on my Nomad. I purchased a set of Mavic Crossmax XL Pro LTD WTS as a back up set. The shop fit with the XX1 cassette and mounted the wheelset. When pedaling backwards about 1 revolution in the lowest (largest) gear, the chain would slip off and bind up, not allowing for any reverse rotation of drivetrain. It was obvious by looking at it that the front crank was situated too far right (away from the frame) and the chain wasn't lining up well with the inner gear. The shop said they couldn't do anything to move the cassette farther away from the wheel and when they attempted to use spacers to move the front crank left (closer to frame), it allowed for a few more pedal revolutions before binding up, but still had the issue. They also had to remove the chain guide in order to move the front crank.

    Granted, pedaling backwards for multiple revolutions isn't how I intend to use the bike, but since this is an issue I've never had or seen before, it seems like a compatibility issue between the Mavic and my Nomad. The shop insists that pedaling backwards is not a necessary function of the bike and what happens when pedaling backwards is a non issue. Basically, what's happening with the chain binding up is fine.

    To me, even though the wheel set is now used (twice), they should allow me to exchange them and use the credit towards another wheel set. Since Santa Cruz offers a lower prices wheel set option other than the Enve (Easton ARC 27), it seems it might be the best bet for ordering something I'm sure would be compatible.

    Or is the shop right? Is the fact that the chain binds up after a few backward revolutions something I should be ok with?

    Thanks for any help!

  2. #2
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    The wheelset isn't at fault and neither is the shop. Your chainline should be identical or at least very close to what it was before, which isn't ideal. Most cranksets are @ about 50mm and the middle of your cassette is ~45mm so when you are in the 42t the chain is ~25mm off line.

    Your shop did you right by moving the bottom bracket a little to the left and there isn't much else that can be done. How old is your chain and cassette?

  3. #3
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    Thank you JB. I have had a good relationship with the shop. They are all good people there. The bike is just a couple months old so the drivetrain is all brand new. Would you continue to ride the Mavic as is or would you expect a credit towards and exchange? Or should it just be on me to sell the Mavics in Craigslist and buy a new wheel set? I'd like some outside opinions on what the fair next step would be.

  4. #4
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    Stumpy? jk

    The wheel is not causing your issue.

  5. #5
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    I'm not sure I understand the Stumpy joke. Because of the longer chain stay length?

    This didn't happen with the Enve wheels. Can you elaborate? I seem to be missing something here.
    Last edited by Meltz; 12-06-2015 at 07:28 AM. Reason: Add text

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meltz View Post
    I'm not sure I understand the Stumpy joke.
    Sorry, it's dumb.

    Buying new wheels to correct a problem that should have nothing to do with the wheels is foolhardy IMHO, you need to find out if, how and why your chainline is different than before. Do you still have the Enve wheel? Check the gap between your small cog and the frame and compare it to the previous setup, that is the only thing that really influences rear cassette chainline.

    What did the guys at the shop say about it?

  7. #7
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    That it's an unsolvable issue.

  8. #8
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    Can't say what the issue is, but doesn't sound like you should make bad blood over it.

  9. #9
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    Listen to Mr Weld. This has nothing to do with the wheel and you could fit ten different ones and they would all do exactly the same thing as the cassette would be in exactly the same place.

    External bottom brackets and more gears have had a negative impact on chain-lines. That's progress for you. Just ride the bike and don't worry about it.

  10. #10
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    Definitely trying to avoid bad blood, Miker. That's why I wanted opinions here. Seems like I shouldn't insist on the shop exchanging the Mavics and that's fine. Just so bizarre the Enves didn't do this, yet it's not a wheel issue.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meltz View Post
    I broke my carbon Enve rear wheel...
    Quote Originally Posted by Meltz View Post
    ...This didn't happen with the Enve wheels. Can you elaborate?...
    Another way to think of this is 'this didn't happen before I did something to break my Enve rear wheel'.

    What did you do to break the wheel? Crash?

  12. #12
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    Thank you gmcttr, but when pedaling backwards It goes from front crank to rear cassette directly. I'm not sure how the wheel broke but I'm certain this problem didn't exist after any crashing with the Enve.

  13. #13
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    This might be a long shot but did they replace the chain? I have seen old chains on new cassettes do this.

  14. #14
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    Thanks Tripower. Will ask them. Although bike was new after just a few rides.

  15. #15
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    Another long shot. Some chains are directional.

  16. #16
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    Look, none of this matter a stuff. If you are pedalling backwards there is nothing to guide the chain onto the correct place on the cassettes. It's not going to run true and it's not reasonable to expect it to.

    You don't have a problem, end of, and hat's off to the bike shop for doing what they did. Very patient of them. I wouldn't have done anything as you don't need to fix a problem that doesn't exist.

    Now give us a break and post about something sensible? :0)

  17. #17
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    Mr Pig, I have plenty of sense. Sense enough to ask for opinions before making an issue when there isn't one. I'm getting great info here, aside from your useless rant. I agree, and I've said, the people at my bike shop are good people. You, on the other hand, seem like you may not be. Go do whatever you need to do to make yourself a happier person.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meltz View Post
    Mr Pig, I have plenty of sense. Sense enough to ask for opinions before making an issue when there isn't one. I'm getting great info here, aside from your useless rant. I agree, and I've said, the people at my bike shop are good people. You, on the other hand, seem like you may not be. Go do whatever you need to do to make yourself a happier person.
    Well I'm smiling now :0) And my rant wast aimed at putting this silliness to bed as I'm not convinced to do have a lot of sense.

    You explained your non-problem, Weld told you neither the wheels nor the shop were at fault and you asked if you should ask for a credit on the wheels or just buy a new set and then go on and on about something that in practice is causing you no problems whatsoever. Despite being told repeatedly that it was not a problem. Sensible?

  19. #19
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    I mentioned asking for a credit after 1 reply. Not after numerous replies as you say, so not sure which of my replies you're referring to when you say after "we" told you. Not such a big deal. Don't get so worked up. I'm not a tech type, so sense is relative. I'm trying to learn.

  20. #20
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    I had a similar issue on my wifes bike, it started after a fall and the derailleur hanger had bent slightly, I adjusted the b-tension and it seemed to work a lot better, but didn't fix until I replaced the hanger and re-dialed everything back in.

    Another thing to look at is the dish of the wheel, I have multiple wheelsets for my bikes, when I built them I made sure the dish was as close as possible, so when I swap out, the only adjustment needed is a turn or two on the barrel adjuster.

    Hope that helps..

    Just thought of this too, Check for a bent tooth on the chainring, put the bike on a stand and pedal backwards slowly, see if the chain "clicks" on a certain tooth..
    Just a dude being a dude in the woods & Owner of Newark Bike Shop an authorized Diamondback Dealer.

    My personal bikes:
    Airborne Seeker
    Airborne HobGoblin
    Airborne Goblin
    Airborne Toxin
    Diamondback Insight ( on the trainer )
    Evo Vantage 7.0

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meltz View Post
    Don't get so worked up. I'm not a tech type, so sense is relative. I'm trying to learn.
    Fair enough. I'm not worked up, I post for fun and don't really care what people on the internet think. I used to but it's not healthy ;0)

    Just don't pedal backwards and you're golden. The transmission isn't designed to work backwards! It's like saying 'Every time I throw my bike out of the window something breaks'. The answer is simple! ;0)

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by JPanaccione View Post
    Another thing to look at is the dish of the wheel, I have multiple wheelsets for my bikes, when I built them I made sure the dish was as close as possible.
    The dish isn't going to effect the running of the gears at all, neither forwards or backwards. The dérailleur hanger will, or can, but does not effect the transmission when running backwards either.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    The dish isn't going to effect the running of the gears at all, neither forwards or backwards. The dérailleur hanger will, or can, but does not effect the transmission when running backwards either.
    You're right about the dish, but hanger alignment, b-screw adj, low limit screw, etc. can all affect how the transmission will run in reverse when in the largest cog, and all of those things should be checked.

    It may not be a huge deal but I do ratchet the pedals backwards at times for pedal placement or on technical features, and my chain jammed up when doing so I'd be a little bummed too.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Hanger alignment, b-screw adj, low limit screw, etc. can all affect how the transmission will run in reverse..
    Mmm, maybe a little but if they are that out I reckon they'll feck up the way it runs forward a lot more!

    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    It may not be a huge deal but I do ratchet the pedals backwards at times for pedal placement or on technical features
    Yeah, everyone does but you're only talking about turning the crank back a little bit, quarter of a turn maybe? He's talking about a full revolution or more. Unless you happen to be in two gears that line up that's pretty much guaranteed not to work.

    Which might be why his 'problem' appeared 'suddenly'. First time he did it the gears happened to be in combination that let the chain run backwards, so he assumes it should always do this. The next time they are in a different gear and it snags up. Oh no, what terrible disaster has befallen one? Part-swapping and shop-bothering ensues. Plausible?

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    Unless you happen to be in two gears that line up that's pretty much guaranteed not to work.
    That's why I'm confused. My Specialized Enduro is a 1x11 and pedals backwards through all gears seamlessly, as did my Nomad in stock form. My Stumpy 2x10 was fine as well. Every stock bike in the shop pedals backwards fine in all gears, as do all of my friends' bikes. The only reason I've questioned this "problem" is because it's the only instance of it I can find. I'd just like to understand why this is different if it's not indicative of any fixable problem.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meltz View Post
    That's why I'm confused. My Specialized Enduro is a 1x11 and pedals backwards through all gears seamlessly, as did my Nomad in stock form. My Stumpy 2x10 was fine as well. Every stock bike in the shop pedals backwards fine in all gears, as do all of my friends' bikes. The only reason I've questioned this "problem" is because it's the only instance of it I can find. I'd just like to understand why this is different if it's not indicative of any fixable problem.
    Did the shop change anything else besides the wheel? Cassettte, chain, derailleur all from when the ENVE was on?
    I got some bad ideas in my head.

  27. #27
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    The only other thing it could be is the freehub. If the Mavic freehub is not as smooth while back pedaling it's possible.
    I got some bad ideas in my head.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Travis Bickle View Post
    Did the shop change anything else besides the wheel? Cassettte, chain, derailleur all from when the ENVE was on?
    No. Nothing.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    Yeah, everyone does but you're only talking about turning the crank back a little bit, quarter of a turn maybe? He's talking about a full revolution or more. Unless you happen to be in two gears that line up that's pretty much guaranteed not to work.
    I do 180 back pedals on the trail fairly often, and I can reverse pedal all day long in pretty much any combo on my 2x10 setup. I've heard that the larger 42+ cogs can be more problematic though, my big one is a 32t.

    Quote Originally Posted by Travis Bickle View Post
    The only other thing it could be is the freehub. If the Mavic freehub is not as smooth while back pedaling it's possible.
    Good call^^ a new, tighter freehub would exacerbate any tendency for the chain to come off while backpedaling.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Good call^^ a new, tighter freehub would exacerbate any tendency for the chain to come off while backpedaling.
    Why would that make a difference, and would the freehub theoretically loosen with use? Are there aftermarket freehubs that would be more forgiving from the start? DT Swiss was the stock I think

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meltz View Post
    Why would that make a difference, and would the freehub theoretically loosen with use?
    Not really. Most are pretty free but some are stiffer than others and some can tighten up if they are not assembled correctly or the quick-release is clamped up too tight. DT Swiss is a good brand though, doubt there is anything wrong there.

    It would make a difference because, if there was enough drag, it could let the top of the chain go slack. Drag in the dérailleur would do the same thing.

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