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Thread: Old vs new rd

  1. #1
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    Old vs new rd

    Hello

    I have a bike with the Shimano Altus M2000 RD.
    I'm not so happy with the chain dropping off fairly fast (not so strong spring).

    For 30 i can buy a new Shimano SLX M662 (it's a model fron 2013 or 2014).

    Would it be worth it to upgrade my not so old Altus for a SLX that is 4-5 years old?

  2. #2
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    Both are shadow, perhaps the spring for the SLX is stronger but I don't know for sure. Also, the SLX has a big cog limit of 34T while the Altus has a 36T upper limit so you might need a longer B screw for the SLX if you have a 36T cog. Perhaps look for a shadow plus if you want a stronger spring w/ clutch.
    I don't know why,... it's just MUSS easier to pedal than the other ones.

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    Hello

    I'm running a 11-34, so that's not a problem for both RD's.

    Any suggestions which RD you recommend that's not too expensive?
    I can't see any 9S RD with a clutch on Bike-discount.de

    And i've seen on a few forums that a 10S RD is and is not compatible with a 9S shifter.. Some say it works, some say it doesn't.. (10S cassette upgrade is not possible if i believe the mechanic from the store where i bought it)
    Last edited by DavidBelgium; 11-28-2018 at 10:40 AM.

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    Is it a single, double or a triple ring drivetrain?

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    Quote Originally Posted by uzurpator View Post
    Is it a single, double or a triple ring drivetrain?
    It's a 3X (22-32-44) but i'm thinking to make it a 1X (32T or 34T) in the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidBelgium View Post
    Hello

    I'm running a 11-34, so that's not a problem for both RD's.

    Any suggestions which RD you recommend that's not too expensive?
    I can't see any 9S RD with a clutch on Bike-discount.de

    And i've seen on a few forums that a 10S RD is and is not compatible with a 9S shifter.. Some say it works, some say it doesn't.. (10S cassette upgrade is not possible if i believe the mechanic from the store where i bought it)
    I would look at Chain Reaction for the best deals for Shimano components. In the US, CRC has the best prices but I'm not sure if that holds true for Europe. Stick to looking at the shimano RDs, you can't use Shimano shifters with a Sram RD afaik. Either the SLX or XT would be my choice. The SLX you are looking at may well be a good choice and can handle the 22 tooth difference in your chainrings. I'm still running 9spd with the 770 series XT components. As for the 10spd vs 9spd RD or FDs I think the cage is a slightly more narrow for 10spd, but the width of the outer chain plates didn't change so I would think they would work. I've read that some riders kept their 9spd RD and got a 10spd shifter when they upgraded to 10 spd. Things change when you get to 11 and 12 spd, but I think most of the 10 speed stuff works with 9 speed. Just get the SGS long cage version of whatever Shimano RD you choose.
    I don't know why,... it's just MUSS easier to pedal than the other ones.

  7. #7
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    I'm like 85% thats the RD on my old bike and I don't recall getting chain drops with it.
    Where does the chain drop off? Front rings?

    10 speed cassette will fit on a 9 speed hub. If you're looking to upgrade to 1x soon just save up for a 10 speed upgrade and deal with the drops for now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by UEDan View Post
    I'm like 85% thats the RD on my old bike and I don't recall getting chain drops with it.
    Where does the chain drop off? Front rings?

    10 speed cassette will fit on a 9 speed hub. If you're looking to upgrade to 1x soon just save up for a 10 speed upgrade and deal with the drops for now.

    Hi

    If it falls off,it's most of the times at the front yeah.. Most when i'm in the smallest front gear and middle rear. (already went to a bike mechanic with it and i also tried to fix it but the spring is just too weak imo)

    I also have it when i'm in the biggest in front (44) and the smaller gears at the rear (11-13-15), when i'm going +40km/h and i suddenly backpedal to position the pedal for the corner (inside metal should be up or i'm scraping).


    But if i believe the mechanic where i bought my bike (Decathlon, not sure if it's known in the US), he says that there is no possibility to go to a 10S cassette. He told me there was no spacer..

    Well i've seen a few 10S RD with 9S shifters, but they're shimano RD's with Sram shifters.. I have shimano shifters and seems like shimano 9S & 10S have different pull rates..

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidBelgium View Post
    But if i believe the mechanic where i bought my bike (Decathlon, not sure if it's known in the US), he says that there is no possibility to go to a 10S cassette. He told me there was no spacer..

    Well i've seen a few 10S RD with 9S shifters, but they're shimano RD's with Sram shifters.. I have shimano shifters and seems like shimano 9S & 10S have different pull rates..
    If your rear wheel has a freehub, 9s and 10s cassettes will fit as well as 7 or 8 spd. The freehub is wider for 11 and 12 spd cassettes. If you have a freewheel then it gets muddy. There is no spacer needed for a standard 7,8,9 or 10 spd cassette.

    Yes, 9s has a different pull than 10s since the distance between the gears is smaller as the total width of the cassette did not change.

    Not sure why your chain keeps dropping.
    I don't know why,... it's just MUSS easier to pedal than the other ones.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dbhammercycle View Post
    If your rear wheel has a freehub, 9s and 10s cassettes will fit as well as 7 or 8 spd. The freehub is wider for 11 and 12 spd cassettes. If you have a freewheel then it gets muddy. There is no spacer needed for a standard 7,8,9 or 10 spd cassette.

    Yes, 9s has a different pull than 10s since the distance between the gears is smaller as the total width of the cassette did not change.

    Not sure why your chain keeps dropping.
    Shimano 11spd MTN works just fine on the same freehub as 8/9/10spd. Sunrace 12spd does as well. It's only the 11spd ROAD cassettes/freehubs that are different (slightly wider).

    10/11 spd rear derailleurs are interchangeable as long as the cassette is small enough or you get a goatlink/radr cage on the 10spd (with some limitations the bigger you go on cassette). Not so smooth mixing 9/10 spd in my experience so I shy away from recommending that as an option.

    Of course all of this is semi-academic since the chain is dropping up front, which may or may not have something to do with the rear derailleur. A clutched RD could help, but I have my doubts. My guess would be worn chain/chainrings and/or poorly adjusted front derailleur.

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    Hi

    So a 10S cassette will 100% fit my hub that now has a 9S?

    But i did order the 30 SLX and i hope it will help for the moment.

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    OK first up, 9spd Shimano CANNOT work with 10spd, the pull ratio was changed, only way would be to get something to change the pull ratio, at some point someone offered it, but not sure if you can still find it. You CAN however use a 10spd Shimano shifter with 9spd SRAM as the pull ratios are almost identical and they work fine.

    As to your actual problem, sounds more like maybe your chain is too long and needs shortening to help keep better chain tension. Also, with this new design, if it has the make up of the higher end stuff it got trickled down from, you should be able to remove the pulley cages from the derailleur and increase the spring tension in the RD by shifting it a hole, but I'm not sure these are identical to the 10spd stuff they were trickled down from.

    Also check your FD adjustment, make sure that it doesn't have room to over shift in either direction, i.e. make sure the limit screws are adjusted properly.
    One day your life will flash before your eyes, will it be worth watching??

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    hello

    I know that the 9 and 10S have different pull ratios..
    So that's why i can't find a good rear derailleur (good ones with clutch are 10S)

    But i checked the FD and chain length, all are good. Even checked by the mechanic that works at the store (not the Walmart type of mechanic)..

    I hope the older SLX will work better than the new Altus i have..

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidBelgium View Post
    Hi

    If it falls off,it's most of the times at the front yeah.. Most when i'm in the smallest front gear and middle rear.
    This is a bit of an inherent fault with 3x 9spd systems, especially with a long cage RD required for a triple. Even the newer "shadow" 9spd systems would do this. In that gear combination, you're getting to the point where the RD has to take up LOTS of extra slack in the chain. Part of it is spring tension, but part of it is that there's a LOT of potential movement when the RD is taking up this much slack.

    This is why a lot of people changed their 3x9 drivetrains to 2x or even 1x (in flatter places, or for downhill). They could switch to a medium or short cage RD, there was less slack in the system, and they suffered much fewer chain drop problems. You could use chain guides for 1x or 2x systems. 10spd came along with clutches and those improved chain stability more. Then NW chainrings from SRAM and improved it yet again. You can still get chain guides (especially for 1x systems - it seems that guides for 2x are less common than they once were).

    With what you have, just changing the RD right now isn't going to make a big difference. Maybe a small one, giving you a cog or two extra before you start to suffer chain drops. If you plan to go 1x or even 2x, then do the whole change all at once and you'll notice some changes.

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    Hi

    I'm going to try a 1X in the summer.

    A NW chainring will work with a 9S chain or only 10S and above?

  16. #16
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    I've not had my hands on any of the new low end stuff like that Altus you''ve got, (I do have experience with the SLX derailleur and the spring isn't very stiff) and in looking at photos and video of the Altus, I highly doubt the SLX derailleur you ordered will be any better in any regard. I think you have some other issue going on with your bike and the fact that you took it into a "proper" bike shop and had a "real" mechanic look at it says nothing, as as many good ones you'll find, you'll find 3 times as many useless ones. My best advice to you is to go on You Tube and watch videos about working and adjusting the drive train, specifically check out the Park Tool stuff, or tech series from channels like VitalMTB, MBR and the likes.

    I finally, personally made the switch to 10spd 2 years ago to get the clutch feature. Had 10spd on my loaner/rental bikes, but still ran 9spd on my personal bikes, it was worth the cost, which really wasn't much as my 9spd stuff was pretty old and kinda needed upgrading.

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidBelgium View Post
    hello

    I know that the 9 and 10S have different pull ratios..
    So that's why i can't find a good rear derailleur (good ones with clutch are 10S)

    But i checked the FD and chain length, all are good. Even checked by the mechanic that works at the store (not the Walmart type of mechanic)..

    I hope the older SLX will work better than the new Altus i have..
    One day your life will flash before your eyes, will it be worth watching??

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    Hello

    Well i don't want to sound like a huge douchebag but i can maintain a bike. I know how to align derailleurs and such

    I will keep you guys updated when the SLX arrives.


    But do 9S hubs fit 10S cassettes (like are they the same size)? The store mechanic said it does not have the space for a 10S cassette..

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidBelgium View Post
    But do 9S hubs fit 10S cassettes (like are they the same size)? The store mechanic said it does not have the space for a 10S cassette..
    mechanic was wrong. 9spd and 10spd mtb cassettes will both fit. 11spd shimano mtb, Sunrace mtb, and SRAM NX cassettes will, also. And 12spd Sunrace ones.

    The only ones that will NOT fit are Shimano road cassettes, 11 and 12spd SRAM xD driver cassettes, and new Shimano 12spd microspline cassettes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold View Post
    mechanic was wrong. 9spd and 10spd mtb cassettes will both fit. 11spd shimano mtb, Sunrace mtb, and SRAM NX cassettes will, also. And 12spd Sunrace ones.

    The only ones that will NOT fit are Shimano road cassettes, 11 and 12spd SRAM xD driver cassettes, and new Shimano 12spd microspline cassettes.
    Hello

    So i can actually buy a 10S cassette, Shifter and derailleur and they will fit?

    If yes, i think i will just return the SLX and save up a little and buy 10S components

  20. #20
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    Thank you noapathy for the education and thank you LyNx for the knowledge bomb.

    Apologies if I was misleading, I don't advocate mixing 9 spd with 10spd. I've been told you can use a 9spd rear derailleur with a 10spd shifter, but I've not done this. I didn't know that you can use a Shimano 10spd shifter with a Sram 9 spd rd. I find that interesting since I have run one or the other but not together. I had the opposite combo, shimano 9 and sram 10 but never combined them.

    Have a good day!!!
    Last edited by dbhammercycle; 11-29-2018 at 09:57 AM. Reason: wrong word, more educational than edificational...
    I don't know why,... it's just MUSS easier to pedal than the other ones.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidBelgium View Post
    Hello

    So i can actually buy a 10S cassette, Shifter and derailleur and they will fit?

    If yes, i think i will just return the SLX and save up a little and buy 10S components
    Yep. Do it. Or go straight to 1x10 or 1x11 with a narrow wide up front. You'll need a few more things than just the RD/cassette.

    • rear derailleur (Deore/SLX shadow plus is what I'd recommend)
    • cassette
    • 10/11spd shifter
    • 10/11spd chain
    • narrow wide ring



    I'd suggest while you're at it you replace the cable housing, especially if it's been on there a while for the best performance.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbhammercycle View Post
    Thank you noapathy for the edification and thank you LyNx for the knowledge bomb.

    Apologies if I was misleading, I don't advocate mixing 9 spd with 10spd. I've been told you can use a 9spd rear derailleur with a 10spd shifter, but I've not done this. I didn't know that you can use a Shimano 10spd shifter with a Sram 9 spd rd. I find that interesting since I have run one or the other but not together. I had the opposite combo, shimano 9 and sram 10 but never combined them.

    Have a good day!!!
    No worries. I've been wrong once.

    There are a couple 9/10spd combos that can be "hacked" to mostly work (IIRC a specific SRAM road/mtb mix and the SRAM 9spd shifter/Shimano 10spd RD with a 6mm spacer at the RD). There are threads around here someplace...

    It's Shimano 10spd/11spd that play nice without all the workarounds so I occasionally recommend running an 11spd RD on a wide range 1x10 setup (and use it myself) if someone's not wanting to replace everything at once.

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    Hi all

    So would this be a good solution? (Leaving the NW chainring out for now)

    https://www.bike-discount.de/en/buy/...-shadow-626840

    Deore RD-M6000

    https://www.bike-discount.de/en/buy/...ear-set-780470

    Sunrace 11-42T 10S + chain

    Https://www.bike-discount.de/en/buy/...r-right-785925

    Deore M610 10S shifter

    Any other suggestions?

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