Dyna Sys 10 speed compatability with 9 speed (Shimano systems)- Mtbr.com
Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast
Results 1 to 200 of 627
  1. #1
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    3,492

    Dyna Sys 10 speed compatability with 9 speed (Shimano systems)

    I just set up a ten speed system on my bike using a mix of 9 speed and 10 speed parts. Since there is a lot of confusing and contradictory information about Shimano dyna sys 10 speed, I thought I would post up some compatability issues I have found.

    1. Road 10 speed derailleurs and shifters are completely incompatible with mountain (dyna sys) 10 speed derailleurs and shifters. The cable pull by the shifters is different for both front and rear.

    2. Nine speed rear derailleurs will not work with 10 speed mountain rear shifters. They will however work with road “flat bar” 10 speed rear shifters. Dyna speed shifters pull twice as much cable per shift as 9 speed shifters, so if you use a 9 speed derailleur it shifts two gears for every one push.

    3. Dyna sys 10 speed rear derailleurs cannot be used with 9 speed shifters. Road 10 speed derailleurs can be used with 9 speed shifters.

    4. Nine speed front derailleurs can be used with 10 speed front shifters, but do not work optimally if used with a 10 speed crankset. Nine speed front derailleurs and cranksets can be used with 10 speed chains and front shifters. A nine speed shifter can be used to shift a 10 speed dyna sys front derailleur.

    5. 10 speed road chains are different from 10 speed mountain (dyna sys) chains. The dyna sys chain is a directional chain that is made to shift better with 10 speed mountain drivetrains.

    6. 10 speed road cassettes and 10 speed mountain cassette use the same sprocket spacing.
    2015 Niner Jet 9 Carbon
    2015 KHS Sixfifty Team
    2019 Salsa Warbird
    2019 Canyon Endurace
    1987 Haro RS1

  2. #2
    Doesntplaywellwithmorons!
    Reputation: DeeEight's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    10,881
    You left out...

    Shimano 9/10 speed road front deraileur cable pull geometry is different than shimano mtb front derailleurs, so the equivalent front shifters do not work with front derailleurs from the other model line. That's with fully indexed shifters anyway. With gripshifters/thumbshifters/bar end shifters where you can trim the derailleur cage to wherever you want it, that's not a problem. Also there are a couple companies that offer top-pull adapters for shimano front road derailleurs and these alter the cable pull geometry also making them compatible with indexed shifters. The road flat bar shifters of course work perfectly well with the road front derailleurs when used on a mountain bike unless of course you run a top-pull adapter as well.

  3. #3
    I'm with stupid
    Reputation: hitechredneck's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    5,896
    nice thanks for the info. 10 spd set up is getting ordered now that i dont have to get a 350 buck new/same crank.

  4. #4
    Nouveau Retrogrouch SuperModerator
    Reputation: shiggy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 1998
    Posts
    48,236
    Quote Originally Posted by ljsmith
    I just set up a ten speed system on my bike using a mix of 9 speed and 10 speed parts. Since there is a lot of confusing and contradictory information about Shimano dyna sys 10 speed, I thought I would post up some compatability issues I have found.

    1. Road 10 speed derailleurs and shifters are completely incompatible with mountain (dyna sys) 10 speed derailleurs and shifters. The cable pull by the shifters is different for both front and rear.

    2. Nine speed rear derailleurs will not work with 10 speed mountain rear shifters. They will however work with road “flat bar” 10 speed rear shifters. Dyna speed shifters pull twice as much cable per shift as 9 speed shifters, so if you use a 9 speed derailleur it shifts two gears for every one push.

    3. Dyna sys 10 speed rear derailleurs cannot be used with 9 speed shifters. Road 10 speed derailleurs can be used with 9 speed shifters.

    4. Nine speed front derailleurs can be used with 10 speed front shifters, but do not work optimally if used with a 10 speed crankset. Nine speed front derailleurs and cranksets can be used with 10 speed chains and front shifters. A nine speed shifter can be used to shift a 10 speed dyna sys front derailleur.

    5. 10 speed road chains are different from 10 speed mountain (dyna sys) chains. The dyna sys chain is a directional chain that is made to shift better with 10 speed mountain drivetrains.

    6. 10 speed road cassettes and 10 speed mountain cassette use the same sprocket spacing.
    Thanks for posting this in a more clear manner than Shimano is willing to provide.

    I have read reports from reputable sources that the mtb 9 and 10 sp FDs/shifter do not play well when mixed.
    mtbtires.com
    The trouble with common sense is it is no longer common

  5. #5
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    175
    Excellent info and thanks. I have gotten all 10 speed parts for my first build but wanted to use the double SLX cranks (9 speed) that have such a good price going right now. Pretty well had my question answered in another thread but still good to get the info from another source.

  6. #6
    Former Bike Wrench
    Reputation: mtnbiker72's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    15,976
    Quote Originally Posted by ljsmith
    I just set up a ten speed system on my bike using a mix of 9 speed and 10 speed parts. Since there is a lot of confusing and contradictory information about Shimano dyna sys 10 speed, I thought I would post up some compatability issues I have found.

    1. Road 10 speed derailleurs and shifters are completely incompatible with mountain (dyna sys) 10 speed derailleurs and shifters. The cable pull by the shifters is different for both front and rear.

    2. Nine speed rear derailleurs will not work with 10 speed mountain rear shifters. They will however work with road “flat bar” 10 speed rear shifters. Dyna speed shifters pull twice as much cable per shift as 9 speed shifters, so if you use a 9 speed derailleur it shifts two gears for every one push.

    3. Dyna sys 10 speed rear derailleurs cannot be used with 9 speed shifters. Road 10 speed derailleurs can be used with 9 speed shifters.

    4. Nine speed front derailleurs can be used with 10 speed front shifters, but do not work optimally if used with a 10 speed crankset. Nine speed front derailleurs and cranksets can be used with 10 speed chains and front shifters. A nine speed shifter can be used to shift a 10 speed dyna sys front derailleur.

    5. 10 speed road chains are different from 10 speed mountain (dyna sys) chains. The dyna sys chain is a directional chain that is made to shift better with 10 speed mountain drivetrains.

    6. 10 speed road cassettes and 10 speed mountain cassette use the same sprocket spacing.
    Nice, probably should be a sticky on this forum

  7. #7
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    3,492
    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy
    I have read reports from reputable sources that the mtb 9 and 10 sp FDs/shifter do not play well when mixed.
    From what I understand the front 10 speed shifter is identical to the 9 speed shifter. The difference is in the geometry of the front derailleur. The 10 speed front derailleur moves slightly less per shift due to the 10 speed crankset using thinner rings with closer spacing. You can interchange the front derailleurs, but they will be very difficult to adjust. A 9 speed front derailleur on a 10 speed crankset will slightly overshift each ring. A 10 speed front derailleur on a 9 speed crankset will slightly undershift each ring. What is interesting is that the right 10 speed shifter body looks totally different than the left. It is huge, and the lever looks totally different than the left.

    The Bottom line: match the derailleur to the crankset. If it is a 9 speed crankset, use a 9 speed front derailleur. If it is a 10 speed crankset use a 10 speed front derailleur.
    Last edited by ljsmith; 08-25-2010 at 04:34 PM.
    2015 Niner Jet 9 Carbon
    2015 KHS Sixfifty Team
    2019 Salsa Warbird
    2019 Canyon Endurace
    1987 Haro RS1

  8. #8
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    3,492
    Quote Originally Posted by DeeEight
    You left out...

    Shimano 9/10 speed road front deraileur cable pull geometry is different than shimano mtb front derailleurs, so the equivalent front shifters do not work with front derailleurs from the other model line.
    You are correct. I was just making the (bad) assumption that people would not be using road shifters on a mountain bike. However, flat bar road shifters do use the same cable pull for the front derailleur as mountain shifters, they are actually LX level shifters that have been given a trim abilty.
    2015 Niner Jet 9 Carbon
    2015 KHS Sixfifty Team
    2019 Salsa Warbird
    2019 Canyon Endurace
    1987 Haro RS1

  9. #9
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    900
    Quote Originally Posted by ljsmith
    I was just making the (bad) assumption that people would not be using road shifters on a mountain bike.
    I've been thinking about doing this since the road FB shifters became available, only stopped by the hope that 10-speed gripshifters might become available. I might still do it, as I could thus keep all my shifters and rear derailleurs compatible (road and MTB), potentially saving grief later on.

  10. #10
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    7,048
    Great news. Per Shimano's rep yesterday, mixing 10-speed chain and shifters with a 9-speed crankset "absolutely will not work". Please pass that crack pipe.

    Also, when asked about fitting the new 3 x 10 cranks with a 22t granny, he said it was no longer possible, due to the bolt circle diameter being changed, and that "if you need that low of a gear, you should quit mountain biking". Sheesh!

    Thanks, guys, for the real info on what actually works on the bike, as opposed to the CADD computer simulations (or are they just marketing simulations?).
    Whining is not a strategy.

  11. #11
    mtbr member
    Reputation: rsullivan's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    847

    Thats funny cuz.....

    Quote Originally Posted by kosmo
    Great news. Per Shimano's rep yesterday, mixing 10-speed chain and shifters with a 9-speed crankset "absolutely will not work". Please pass that crack pipe.

    Also, when asked about fitting the new 3 x 10 cranks with a 22t granny, he said it was no longer possible, due to the bolt circle diameter being changed, and that "if you need that low of a gear, you should quit mountain biking". Sheesh!

    Thanks, guys, for the real info on what actually works on the bike, as opposed to the CADD computer simulations (or are they just marketing simulations?).
    I recently took the 24tooth granny from the 3x10cranks that came on my 2011fuel and put it on a 9 speed SLX crankset and installed them on my Fuel with no shifting issues. Even changed the front shifter out to a older X9 that I had laying around.. No problems that I could tell....

  12. #12
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    900
    Some salesmen have even less understanding of the concept of truth than do politicians. Then again, politicians are just salesmen with (bigger) delusions of grandeur.

    Sounds like the guy you spoke to should be in the Gestapo side of Shimano, rather than a customer-contact role. IME, many of the industry guys who are like this used to be (or still are) not-very-successful racers with lots of attitude left over from their failed competitive careers to inflict on the world.

    Also, I find it's always best to actually test all of Shimano's proclamations on compatibility for myself, unless things have been changed so much that they obviously won't work. If there's any doubt, test it, and you'll often be pleasantly less-than-surprised by the result.

  13. #13
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    3,492
    Quote Originally Posted by kosmo
    Great news. Per Shimano's rep yesterday, mixing 10-speed chain and shifters with a 9-speed crankset "absolutely will not work". Please pass that crack pipe.

    Also, when asked about fitting the new 3 x 10 cranks with a 22t granny, he said it was no longer possible, due to the bolt circle diameter being changed, and that "if you need that low of a gear, you should quit mountain biking". Sheesh!

    Thanks, guys, for the real info on what actually works on the bike, as opposed to the CADD computer simulations (or are they just marketing simulations?).
    Remember that Shimano also said that 8 speed was completely incompatible with 9 speed. They have a vested interest is saying this, they want to sell you parts. 10 speed XT and SLX cranks are basically 9 speed crank arms with 10 speed rings/spiders on them. So why would I want to go buy a new crankset that is identical to what I have unless Shimano says my crankset is incompatible. The XTR that hasn't come out yet is a total redesign though.

    My personal setup is an 11-28 Ultegra 10 speed cassette, SRAM 1070 chain, SLX 10 speed shifters, XT dyna sys rear derailleur, XT 9 speed front derailleur and an XTR M970
    9 speed crankset. My total 10 speed upgrade cost was $210. Its a cobbled together 10 speed system, but it shifts great. Actually it shifts better than my 9 speed system because I get less chain rub in the front due to the thinner chain, and in the rear it is better (I think) because of the increased cable pull from the shifter.
    2015 Niner Jet 9 Carbon
    2015 KHS Sixfifty Team
    2019 Salsa Warbird
    2019 Canyon Endurace
    1987 Haro RS1

  14. #14
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    8
    Quote Originally Posted by ljsmith
    2. Nine speed rear derailleurs will not work with 10 speed mountain rear shifters. They will however work with road “flat bar” 10 speed rear shifters. Dyna speed shifters pull twice as much cable per shift as 9 speed shifters, so if you use a 9 speed derailleur it shifts two gears for every one push.
    That sounds very similar cable pull with SRAM, doesn't it?

    Nice work btw ljsmith!

  15. #15
    Nouveau Retrogrouch SuperModerator
    Reputation: shiggy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 1998
    Posts
    48,236
    Quote Originally Posted by kosmo
    Great news. Per Shimano's rep yesterday, mixing 10-speed chain and shifters with a 9-speed crankset "absolutely will not work". Please pass that crack pipe.

    Also, when asked about fitting the new 3 x 10 cranks with a 22t granny, he said it was no longer possible, due to the bolt circle diameter being changed, and that "if you need that low of a gear, you should quit mountain biking". Sheesh!

    Thanks, guys, for the real info on what actually works on the bike, as opposed to the CADD computer simulations (or are they just marketing simulations?).
    Shifters, maybe not. The tooth offset on the 10-sp rings makes the spacing tighter.

    The BCD has not changed on the triple cranks, as per Shimano's own tech documents. The double cranks are different.
    mtbtires.com
    The trouble with common sense is it is no longer common

  16. #16
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    32
    thanks, great work. that's answered many of my questions.


    However, i'd like to ask one more question.

    Am i able to use a 10speed crank and front derailleur with a 9 speed rear cassette and derailleur? I dare say I'd have to use a 9 speed chain for that.

    cheers
    d

    thanks
    d

  17. #17
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    32
    alternatively, will i be able to put my 10 speed chainrings on my old 9 speed cranks.

  18. #18
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    3,492
    Quote Originally Posted by gadget1
    alternatively, will i be able to put my 10 speed chainrings on my old 9 speed cranks.

    You can use a 9 speed chain with a 10 speed front derailleur and crankset, but you will get a lot more chain rub in certain gear combinations. Are the rings worn out on your 9 speed crank? I have not verified if putting 10 speed rings on a 9 speed crank is okay, bascially I do not know if the ring spacing difference is due to the crankset spider or whether the rings themselves have different offsets. If you do put the 10 speed rings on 9 speed cranks to use with a 9 speed system, let us know how that works.

    But your best bet would be to use a 10 speed crankset, 10 speed front derailleur, 9 speed cassette and rear derailleur and then use a 10 speed chain. A 10 speed chain should work just fine on the rear cassette. I have run 8 speed systems with thinner 9 speed chains and they shift just fine, so I am assuming you can use a 10 speed chain on 9 speed.
    2015 Niner Jet 9 Carbon
    2015 KHS Sixfifty Team
    2019 Salsa Warbird
    2019 Canyon Endurace
    1987 Haro RS1

  19. #19
    Doesntplaywellwithmorons!
    Reputation: DeeEight's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    10,881
    Quote Originally Posted by gadget1
    However, i'd like to ask one more question.

    Am i able to use a 10speed crank and front derailleur with a 9 speed rear cassette and derailleur? I dare say I'd have to use a 9 speed chain for that.
    Yes. No a 10 speed chain works on a 9 speed cassette. As I said earlier, the tooth widths of the rings and cogs (9 or 10) is the same and thus the chain inner plate specification is the same. Its the OUTER chain plate width that changes (10 speed is narrower by approx one quarter of one millimeter) when you go up in speeds because of the tighter cassette spacing.

    I have used SRAM 10 speed hollow pin chains on Shimano and Sunrace 9speed cassette equipped road bikes and it shifts the same as with a 9speed chain. If anything you get less chain rub on the bigger ring when in the inner ring and crossing over towards the smaller cogs.

    To repeat... 5, 6, 7 and 8 speed chains use the same cog/ring tooth widths (the 3/32" number in a chain description). 9 and 10 speed chains are 11/128", and I believe the Campy 11speed is 10/128". In terms of outer widths, your typical 8 speed chain is about 7.1mm, 9 speed is about 6.6mm, 10 speed is 6.1mm and 11 speed is 5.5mm.

  20. #20
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    7
    thanks OP. this thread helped me decide that I never want to mix and match components.

  21. #21
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    7,048
    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy
    Shifters, maybe not. The tooth offset on the 10-sp rings makes the spacing tighter.

    The BCD has not changed on the triple cranks, as per Shimano's own tech documents. The double cranks are different.
    Thanks, Shiggy. Current plan is 10-speed cassette, rear shifter, rear deraileur, and chain, paired with existing 9-speed triple crank, front deraileur, and front shifter.

    Will post up on how it works out.
    Whining is not a strategy.

  22. #22
    Village Dirtbag
    Reputation: @dam's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    2,283
    So, I understand that chainrings are the same thickness, but the ramps are much more elaborate on Dyna Sys- especially on the granny side of the middle ring. Is this necessary to pick up the thinner chain? Has anyone tried running 10-spd chains on the 9-spd rings, particularly XT rings? I'm especially interested in the little ring, since a 24T granny is too big for me. A 22/36 sounds like a great granny for a 29er, and I really want to try it.

  23. #23
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    7,048
    Quote Originally Posted by @dam
    So, I understand that chainrings are the same thickness, but the ramps are much more elaborate on Dyna Sys- especially on the granny side of the middle ring. Is this necessary to pick up the thinner chain? Has anyone tried running 10-spd chains on the 9-spd rings, particularly XT rings? I'm especially interested in the little ring, since a 24T granny is too big for me. A 22/36 sounds like a great granny for a 29er, and I really want to try it.
    Very limited test, but I got the 10-speed cassette, deraileur, and chain on the bike last night. No shifters until tomorrow, but I used the rear limit screws to "lock" the chain into 7th gear, and ON THE WORKSTAND, the front 9-speed crank, rings, der, and shifter functioned perfectly with the 10-speed chain.

    More once the shifters show up, and an actual trail test can be done.
    Whining is not a strategy.

  24. #24
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    145
    Quote Originally Posted by ljsmith
    I just set up a ten speed system on my bike using a mix of 9 speed and 10 speed parts. Since there is a lot of confusing and contradictory information about Shimano dyna sys 10 speed, I thought I would post up some compatability issues I have found.
    [...]
    4. Nine speed front derailleurs can be used with 10 speed front shifters, but do not work optimally if used with a 10 speed crankset.
    A 2011 MTB with a 2x10 that I just bought came from the factory with a 9spd FD by mistake. Shifting in the front was highly non-optimal. LBS did some tweaking initially before the problem was discovered but it still was barely workable. This was with SRAM S-2200 cranks, a kmc chain and shimano LX FD. If this experience is any indication, I wouldn't bother trying to reuse that 9spd FD when doing a conversion...

  25. #25
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    407
    I'm looking forward to getting my 2011 XTR gruppo at Interbike in 2 weeks.

  26. #26
    siv
    siv is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation: siv's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    743
    I have a SLX 10 speed group on my 2011 Giant Reign and am not impressed so far. Lots of angry chain slipping on certain combos(not improper chain line combos). Is there a break in period with chain and such?

  27. #27
    mtbr member
    Reputation: cort's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    893
    I'm sorry but why can't the RD's be interchangeable between 9 and 10 speed systems? The shifter and cassette choice (ie: spacing/pull ratio) dictates which combo I can use, not the RD

    Sounds like Shimano marketing to me

  28. #28
    Doesntplaywellwithmorons!
    Reputation: DeeEight's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    10,881
    Because in order to improve the reliability of the mtb 10 speed shifting, shimano has finally admitted to themselves that SRAM had the right idea lowering the leverage ratio of the rear derailleur cable pull geometry (which makes the derailleur less sensitive to cable stretch and tension changes from shifter housing movement on a rear suspension bike). So the shifters now pull more cable than before for each shift. SRAM's 10 speed shifters and derailleurs also pull more cable than their 9 speed units. I believe the SRAM 10 speed works out as a 0.8:1 ratio now, their 8/9 speed stuff is 1:1, all shimano derailleurs except the new 10speed mtb (and the 7/8 speed DuraAce) are 2:1 and the shimano 10s MTB is I believe its been measured out as something like 1.25:1.
    I don't post to generate business for myself or make like I'm better than sliced bread

  29. #29
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    900
    ^ +1

    Seems like critical adjustment has been one of the major worries here re 10 speed (and 9 speed too). At least Shimano have made the break at an obvious point, so what will work is as clear as possible.

  30. #30
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    301
    So can someone confirm that you can put 10 spd chainrings on a 9 spd crankset....and things will shift fine? I have an XTR 970 crankset that I would like to use as 10 spd mountain.

  31. #31
    Nouveau Retrogrouch SuperModerator
    Reputation: shiggy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 1998
    Posts
    48,236
    Quote Originally Posted by cort
    I'm sorry but why can't the RD's be interchangeable between 9 and 10 speed systems? The shifter and cassette choice (ie: spacing/pull ratio) dictates which combo I can use, not the RD

    Sounds like Shimano marketing to me
    They changed the geometry of the RD. The mtb 10-speed RD moves a different distance for the same amount of cable movement than the old RDs.

    Same reason you can not use a SRAM RD with Shimano shifters.
    mtbtires.com
    The trouble with common sense is it is no longer common

  32. #32
    Nouveau Retrogrouch SuperModerator
    Reputation: shiggy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 1998
    Posts
    48,236
    Quote Originally Posted by rconceptsinc
    So can someone confirm that you can put 10 spd chainrings on a 9 spd crankset....and things will shift fine? I have an XTR 970 crankset that I would like to use as 10 spd mountain.
    You do not need to change the rings to use a 10-speed chain.

    Reportedly, you can put the 10-speed rings on the 9-speed crank, but you may also need to switch to the 10-speed FD and/or front shifter.
    mtbtires.com
    The trouble with common sense is it is no longer common

  33. #33
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    301
    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy
    You do not need to change the rings to use a 10-speed chain.

    Reportedly, you can put the 10-speed rings on the 9-speed crank, but you may also need to switch to the 10-speed FD and/or front shifter.
    Yes I am hoping to re-use my XTR 970 crank on my 2011 Superfly 100 w/ complete Sram X9 10spd. It came with a cheap Shimano 3x10 crank and was wondering if it would work if I just swapped the chainrings on to my XTR 970 crank arms.

  34. #34
    www.derbyrims.com
    Reputation: derby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    6,764
    Quote Originally Posted by ljsmith
    My personal setup is an 11-28 Ultegra 10 speed cassette, SRAM 1070 chain, SLX 10 speed shifters, XT dyna sys rear derailleur, XT 9 speed front derailleur and an XTR M970
    9 speed crankset. My total 10 speed upgrade cost was $210.
    Thanks for covering this so well.

    Is the feel and ease of shifting SLX Dyna-sys the same as XT?

    You have an XT rear-der why not SLX? Is there any performance or durability difference other than weight?

    I demoed the XT Dyna-sys 24/34/42 11/36 recently and it did shift very easily, even under power. Front and rear.

    Your cost must be wholesale I'm guessing. I'd pay more than twice for the same, on-line.



    Edit: I think my post was lost in the middle here. ljsmith kindly replied to my PM on these questions.

    He mentioned the LX shifters shift as easily as XT and release the derailleur upon lever return rather than how XT's release the der upon initial pressure. (I think that this SLX action is more common like my Sram lever action and may be better to resist unwanted shifts from accidental bumping the lever.)

    XT rear der rather than SLX, was for weight considerations, not performance or durability reasons.

    And his price was so low due to low demand for 10 speed on eBay when he was bidding.

    Thanks again lj !
    Last edited by derby; 09-18-2010 at 12:26 PM.

  35. #35
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    1,266
    Trying to run 10 speed XT dyna-system with 9 speed crankset. Can't get it to work.
    Here is the set up: 10speed chain, 10 cassette, 10 rear der, 10 rear shifter, 9 speed crank, 9 speed front der, 9 speed front shifter.
    The front will not shift. I can get it to shift up from the granny but not down from the middle to granny. Tried it with both 9 and 10 speed front shifter, short of bending the cage of the front der I tried every trick in the book. Will try 10 speed front der with 10 speed shifter to see if that works. Sucks the big one.

  36. #36
    Nouveau Retrogrouch SuperModerator
    Reputation: shiggy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 1998
    Posts
    48,236
    Quote Originally Posted by morandi
    Trying to run 10 speed XT dyna-system with 9 speed crankset. Can't get it to work.
    Here is the set up: 10speed chain, 10 cassette, 10 rear der, 10 rear shifter, 9 speed crank, 9 speed front der, 9 speed front shifter.
    The front will not shift. I can get it to shift up from the granny but not down from the middle to granny. Tried it with both 9 and 10 speed front shifter, short of bending the cage of the front der I tried every trick in the book. Will try 10 speed front der with 10 speed shifter to see if that works. Sucks the big one.
    Bending the FD cage is one of the tricks in the book.

    But if the front shifting worked before, it should work now. I would restart the setup from square one. Likely just something basic and minor.
    mtbtires.com
    The trouble with common sense is it is no longer common

  37. #37
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    1,266
    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy
    Bending the FD cage is one of the tricks in the book.

    But if the front shifting worked before, it should work now. I would restart the setup from square one. Likely just something basic and minor.
    Went back in the garage this morning and got it to work. I raised the front der up and that did the trick. Works fine now.
    Odd though, how my front shifting was great with the old 9 speed rear set up, and just by switching up the rear to 10 speed it went to just not shifting at all. Maybe the level of the chain be higher up with the 36 tooth cog.

  38. #38
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Mountain_Rocker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    70
    will a 9 speed Shimano XT Crankset work well with the 10 speed cogs & derraileur? i am planning to buy the DynaSys Rear Derraileur, shifters, chain, & Cogs, to upgrade my old drive system but I don't want to change my old 2010 XT Crank & Shimano LX Front Derraileur.

  39. #39
    Nouveau Retrogrouch SuperModerator
    Reputation: shiggy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 1998
    Posts
    48,236
    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain_Rocker
    will a 9 speed Shimano XT Crankset work well with the 10 speed cogs & derraileur? i am planning to buy the DynaSys Rear Derraileur, shifters, chain, & Cogs, to upgrade my old drive system but I don't want to change my old 2010 XT Crank & Shimano LX Front Derraileur.
    The crankset does not care what the cassette and RD are.

    People have been using 10-speed chains on 9-speed drivetrains. You should be fine.
    mtbtires.com
    The trouble with common sense is it is no longer common

  40. #40
    mtbr member
    Reputation: cort's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    893
    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy
    They changed the geometry of the RD. The mtb 10-speed RD moves a different distance for the same amount of cable movement than the old RDs.

    Same reason you can not use a SRAM RD with Shimano shifters.
    Well I took a XT 9 speed RD and installed it on the new Dyna-sys DT. It wasn't even close to working properly on the stand - I stand corrected

  41. #41
    siv
    siv is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation: siv's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    743
    Are KMC 10 speed road chains compatible with Dyna Sys? They(KMC) say yes but i dont know if they're just trying to sell a product, expensive one at that.

  42. #42
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Straz85's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    1,348
    Okay, I've read through the thread and think I know the answer, but I want 100% confirmation...

    My current setup is 2x9, XT RD, SLX shifters, Deore cranks/chainrings. I just had the LBS order XT Dyna Sys RD, shifter, cassette and chain and will be going to 1x9. Will I need a new chainring, or can I keep my current Deore one since I will be 1x9? Thanks!

  43. #43
    siv
    siv is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation: siv's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    743
    IMO, yes you will need new rings. Would seem cheaper to buy a new crank and sell the old one cause rings are not cheap assuming you can find them. Also, appears that only the stock combo(24,32,42) is available. Im still looking for conformation on KMC chain compatibility, seems like the only thing you can mix in that isnt Shimano. Measured the inner and outer width of the chain links last night and compared to the KMC chain on my road bike, damn close. Like .001's close, should work.

  44. #44
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Straz85's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    1,348
    Quote Originally Posted by siv
    IMO, yes you will need new rings. Would seem cheaper to buy a new crank and sell the old one cause rings are not cheap assuming you can find them. Also, appears that only the stock combo(24,32,42) is available. Im still looking for conformation on KMC chain compatibility, seems like the only thing you can mix in that isnt Shimano. Measured the inner and outer width of the chain links last night and compared to the KMC chain on my road bike, damn close. Like .001's close, should work.
    Ugh, not what I wanted to hear, that's another $200+ that I didn't plan on spending. What is it about the chain rings that makes the 10 speed ones different exactly? Shape of the teeth? I think if I end up having to order that, I'll be going with X.9 instead. Is XT Dyna Sys that much better than X.9, if at all? Thanks.

  45. #45
    Nouveau Retrogrouch SuperModerator
    Reputation: shiggy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 1998
    Posts
    48,236
    Quote Originally Posted by Straz85
    Ugh, not what I wanted to hear, that's another $200+ that I didn't plan on spending. What is it about the chain rings that makes the 10 speed ones different exactly? Shape of the teeth? I think if I end up having to order that, I'll be going with X.9 instead. Is XT Dyna Sys that much better than X.9, if at all? Thanks.
    siv is wrong. Many people have been using 10-speed chains on 9-speed chains for years.
    mtbtires.com
    The trouble with common sense is it is no longer common

  46. #46
    siv
    siv is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation: siv's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    743
    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy
    siv is wrong. Many people have been using 10-speed chains on 9-speed chains for years.
    Wrong about what? If everything else is specific why not the rings?

  47. #47
    Nouveau Retrogrouch SuperModerator
    Reputation: shiggy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 1998
    Posts
    48,236
    Quote Originally Posted by siv
    Wrong about what? If everything else is specific why not the rings?
    Read my reply again.
    mtbtires.com
    The trouble with common sense is it is no longer common

  48. #48
    siv
    siv is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation: siv's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    743
    Got it. Actually just read it again, I dont get it. Please explain so I dont have to speculate and be wrong telling others about Dyna Sys. Thanks.
    Last edited by siv; 09-18-2010 at 04:05 AM.

  49. #49
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    22
    I am trying the following setup:
    9 speed gravity light 32-22 or 32-24 (provided that blackspire 24t inner ring can fit)
    XT 10 spd shifters
    XT 10 spd fd
    XT 10 spd rd
    XT 10 spd cassette
    XT 10 spd dyna sys chain

    any thoughts on this? will it work?

  50. #50
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    3,492
    Quote Originally Posted by siv
    Got it. Actually just read it again, I dont get it. Please explain so I dont have to speculate and be wrong telling others about Dyna Sys. Thanks.
    You can use a 9 speed crankset and rings with a 10 speed chain. Weight weenies have already been doing this for years. I have heard that you need to use a 9 speed front derailleur though, but I have not confirmed this. My 10 speed setup is using the 9 speed XTR 970 crankset and it works flawlessly.
    2015 Niner Jet 9 Carbon
    2015 KHS Sixfifty Team
    2019 Salsa Warbird
    2019 Canyon Endurace
    1987 Haro RS1

  51. #51
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    3,492
    Quote Originally Posted by havenzhiv
    I am trying the following setup:
    9 speed gravity light 32-22 or 32-24 (provided that blackspire 24t inner ring can fit)
    XT 10 spd shifters
    XT 10 spd fd
    XT 10 spd rd
    XT 10 spd cassette
    XT 10 spd dyna sys chain

    any thoughts on this? will it work?
    It should work fine. However I have heard that a 10 speed front derailleur does not work optimally with a 9 speed crankset, I have not confirmed this though. I personally am using a 9 speed front derailleur and crankset with my system and it works great!
    2015 Niner Jet 9 Carbon
    2015 KHS Sixfifty Team
    2019 Salsa Warbird
    2019 Canyon Endurace
    1987 Haro RS1

  52. #52
    siv
    siv is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation: siv's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    743
    Quote Originally Posted by ljsmith
    You can use a 9 speed crankset and rings with a 10 speed chain. Weight weenies have already been doing this for years. I have heard that you need to use a 9 speed front derailleur though, but I have not confirmed this. My 10 speed setup is using the 9 speed XTR 970 crankset and it works flawlessly.
    So as long as you have a 10 speed chain you can run 9 speed up front and 10 in the rear? I guess theres no reason why it wouldnt work. Good news for people with old stuff then! So there is a way for me to go 24/36 up front, I just have to go back to 9 speed front shifter and d-rail and "normal" rings.

  53. #53
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    3,492
    Quote Originally Posted by siv
    So as long as you have a 10 speed chain you can run 9 speed up front and 10 in the rear? I guess theres no reason why it wouldnt work. Good news for people with old stuff then! So there is a way for me to go 24/36 up front, I just have to go back to 9 speed front shifter and d-rail and "normal" rings.
    You are correct. A 10 speed chain works great with a 9 speed crank and front derailleur. I actually like the 10 speed chain with a 9 speed front derailleur because it is easier to set it up so it never rubs due to the slightly wider cage.
    2015 Niner Jet 9 Carbon
    2015 KHS Sixfifty Team
    2019 Salsa Warbird
    2019 Canyon Endurace
    1987 Haro RS1

  54. #54
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    204

    SRAM Powerlink

    Anyone tried a SRAM Powelink with an XT 10 spd dyna sys chain?

  55. #55
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Straz85's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    1,348
    Quote Originally Posted by ljsmith
    You can use a 9 speed crankset and rings with a 10 speed chain. Weight weenies have already been doing this for years. I have heard that you need to use a 9 speed front derailleur though, but I have not confirmed this. My 10 speed setup is using the 9 speed XTR 970 crankset and it works flawlessly.
    I checked with the LBS that I bought all the parts at, who happens to also be a Shimano Service Center and just went to a Shimano training and he said 9 speed chainrings with a 10 speed chain in fine.


    Quote Originally Posted by cstuttle
    Anyone tried a SRAM Powelink with an XT 10 spd dyna sys chain?
    I asked him about this as well, he said not to do it.

  56. #56
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Dictatorsaurus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    2,658
    Will the following work together?

    - 10-speed Shimano XT crankset

    - 9-Speed SRAM cassette
    - 9-Speed SRAM Chain
    - 9-Speed SRAM X9 Shifter
    - 9-Speed SRAM Derailleur

  57. #57
    Nouveau Retrogrouch SuperModerator
    Reputation: shiggy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 1998
    Posts
    48,236
    Quote Originally Posted by Dictatorsaurus
    Will the following work together?

    - 10-speed Shimano XT crankset

    - 9-Speed SRAM cassette
    - 9-Speed SRAM Chain
    - 9-Speed SRAM X9 Shifter
    - 9-Speed SRAM Derailleur
    The crank set does not really care what is happening at the rear.
    mtbtires.com
    The trouble with common sense is it is no longer common

  58. #58
    Nouveau Retrogrouch SuperModerator
    Reputation: shiggy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 1998
    Posts
    48,236
    In a consersation with Paul Thomasberg (Shimano R&D rider/thinker) earlier this week I asked if the Dyna Sys cassette uses the same cog spacing (c-c) as the road 10-speed cassettes.

    Yes, it is, but the cogs are thicker, which is one of the reasons for the different chain design. When I followed up asking if mixing road and mtb 10-speed chains and cassettes would work as a "B" or "C" compatibility (functions but not as designed or as well), Paul nodded as the Japanese engineer waved "NO! Will not work!"

    So, you can probably do it, but do not expect the same performance.
    mtbtires.com
    The trouble with common sense is it is no longer common

  59. #59
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Dictatorsaurus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    2,658
    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy
    The crank set does not really care what is happening at the rear.
    A better way to phrase it would be would a 10speed xt crank work with a 9 speed chain and 9 speed FD?

  60. #60
    Nouveau Retrogrouch SuperModerator
    Reputation: shiggy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 1998
    Posts
    48,236
    Quote Originally Posted by Dictatorsaurus
    A better way to phrase it would be would a 10speed xt crank work with a 9 speed chain and 9 speed FD?
    I believe that has been at least partly addressed in several previous posts to this thread. i.e. Maybe.
    mtbtires.com
    The trouble with common sense is it is no longer common

  61. #61
    mtbr member
    Reputation: masterofnone's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Posts
    1,240
    This **** makes my head hurt. My new plan is a 10 speed cassette, 10sp rear der with shifter, 10 speed chain, keeping my 9 speed front shifter and der, and replacing my 9 speed 22/32/44 chainrings with something like a 26 tooth granny and 38 tooth middle plus (maybe) a bash guard. I'm not looking to replace my crankset if not necessary. Whaddua think?

  62. #62
    Still learning
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Posts
    876
    Can anyone confirm whether or not I can use the FC-M970 spider with FC-M770-10 chainrings? The tech docs say M770-10 uses 8.5mm/9.1mm chainring bolts. For M970 they appear to be 7mm and 10.1mm respectively.

    Reason for this is my FC-M970s are 172.5mm, whereas FC-M770/FC-M770-10 only come in 5mm increments, so 170mm or 175mm. My M770-10s are in the post.

    It would seem that FC-M980 chainrings/spiders are completely incompatible with the FC-M970 counterpart, but the same might not be true for FC-M985 - FC-M980 appears to use a spider which has arms not entirely perpendicular to the rotating axis (BB) from the chainring bolts.
    Quote Originally Posted by tom2304
    Yep farkin.net is mostly immature kids asking how to put dual crown forks on hardtails and such.

  63. #63
    mtbr member
    Reputation: in the trees's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    2,046
    Quote Originally Posted by cstuttle
    Anyone tried a SRAM Powelink with an XT 10 spd dyna sys chain?
    No . . . but I'm using a KMC Missing Link without issue (on a 1x10).

  64. #64
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    8
    The next question is...

    Does a sram cassette (xx) work with Dynasys RD Shifter and Chain?

    For the weight weenies the sram cassette is reportedly 70grams lighter than the Xtr.

  65. #65
    Doesntplaywellwithmorons!
    Reputation: DeeEight's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    10,881
    Yes, but a recon titanium 11-32 or 11-34 or 11-36 titanium casssette are all respectively lighter than equivalent size XX cassettes, cost less, and if you use the granny cog a lot will last longer.
    I don't post to generate business for myself or make like I'm better than sliced bread

  66. #66
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    8
    Well from Recons site the ti 10spd 11-36 is 210 grams and the XX 11-36 is listed everywhere at 208 grams. But either way the question still stands if "any other" 10spd cassette will work with the Dynasys components.

  67. #67
    Nouveau Retrogrouch SuperModerator
    Reputation: shiggy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 1998
    Posts
    48,236
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclesnsports
    Well from Recons site the ti 10spd 11-36 is 210 grams and the XX 11-36 is listed everywhere at 208 grams. But either way the question still stands if "any other" 10spd cassette will work with the Dynasys components.
    Spacing is the same but you may not like the performance.
    mtbtires.com
    The trouble with common sense is it is no longer common

  68. #68
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    204

    Chain Suck with 9 Speed Crank

    Quote Originally Posted by ljsmith
    You can use a 9 speed crankset and rings with a 10 speed chain. Weight weenies have already been doing this for years. I have heard that you need to use a 9 speed front derailleur though, but I have not confirmed this. My 10 speed setup is using the 9 speed XTR 970 crankset and it works flawlessly.
    I installed a 2008 XT 9 speed crank with new chainrings, 22-32-42, on a 2011 Trek Remedy 9.8 that came with an XT 10 speed drivetrain. I left the 10 speed front derailleur and shifter on. The shifting works fine and there is a little chain rub in certain gear combos but that is easy to avoid. The only problem is CHAIN SUCK, and it is bad. I was wondering if you have experienced any? I think I'll install the 10 speed crank and see if it still happens.

  69. #69
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    106

    did anyone verify where the difference is (crank or CR)

    Quote Originally Posted by ljsmith
    You can use a 9 speed chain with a 10 speed front derailleur and crankset, but you will get a lot more chain rub in certain gear combinations. Are the rings worn out on your 9 speed crank? I have not verified if putting 10 speed rings on a 9 speed crank is okay, bascially I do not know if the ring spacing difference is due to the crankset spider or whether the rings themselves have different offsets. If you do put the 10 speed rings on 9 speed cranks to use with a 9 speed system, let us know how that works.
    Is it the crankset spider or the rings that are different?

  70. #70
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    148
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclesnsports
    The next question is...

    Does a sram cassette (xx) work with Dynasys RD Shifter and Chain?

    For the weight weenies the sram cassette is reportedly 70grams lighter than the Xtr.
    Same question here, I want to use 2011 XTR with an XX cassette.

  71. #71
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Posts
    18
    uugghhhh... looked into this and totally missed this thread. just bought dura ace bar cons and paulies. have a slx/xt dyna sys 10spd on a new giant xtc29-1. wont work, now i know. if i understand correctly a road der. should work? if the new shifters had a friction option .......

  72. #72
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    8
    Quote Originally Posted by DeeEight
    Its the OUTER chain plate width that changes (10 speed is narrower by approx one quarter of one millimeter) when you go up in speeds because of the tighter cassette spacing.
    [...]
    In terms of outer widths, your typical 8 speed chain is about 7.1mm, 9 speed is about 6.6mm, 10 speed is 6.1mm and 11 speed is 5.5mm.
    hi,
    when you talk about outer chain plate, do you talk about the chain plate closer to the frame or the further?
    I understand that due to the tighter cassette spacing the chain plates that must be narrower are the ones in "contact" with the sprockets.
    The chain is in "contact" with the next in size sprocket (one lower speed).
    Isn't it that way?

    thanks

  73. #73
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    958
    Quote Originally Posted by kosmo
    Very limited test, but I got the 10-speed cassette, deraileur, and chain on the bike last night. No shifters until tomorrow, but I used the rear limit screws to "lock" the chain into 7th gear, and ON THE WORKSTAND, the front 9-speed crank, rings, der, and shifter functioned perfectly with the 10-speed chain.

    More once the shifters show up, and an actual trail test can be done.

    Kosmo
    how is the 10/9 speed system working?
    my rear derailleur is getting long in the tooth. good excuse to change if the poormans
    10 speed conversion works.
    have you ridden PT and SP here?

  74. #74
    The Hutch
    Reputation: rob1208lv's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    1,279
    should I just buy the whole 10 speed XT group set and change the front rings ?
    or can/should I mix it 10 speed rear d,shifter,cassette, and a 9 speed crank with the 9 speed front d, and shifter?

  75. #75
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    49

    9v + 10v DynaSys

    Yesterday, I used for the first time my “new” drive train 3x10s, mixing existing Shimano 9 speed together with new SynaSys 10 speed components:
    • Cranks XT Hollowtech II (2004).
    • Chain rings 22/32/44 XT 9s. 22 and 32 new.
    • Front derailleur Deore 9s (2003).
    • Rear derailleur XT DynaSys 10s.
    • Cassette XT DynaSys 10s, 11-36.
    • Chain XTR DynaSys 10s.
    • Shifters XT DynaSys 3x10s, front and rear.

    It works flawlessly.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Dyna Sys 10 speed compatability with 9 speed (Shimano systems)-imatge264.jpg  

    Dyna Sys 10 speed compatability with 9 speed (Shimano systems)-imatge260.jpg  

    Dyna Sys 10 speed compatability with 9 speed (Shimano systems)-imatge261.jpg  

    Dyna Sys 10 speed compatability with 9 speed (Shimano systems)-imatge262.jpg  

    Dyna Sys 10 speed compatability with 9 speed (Shimano systems)-imatge263.jpg  


  76. #76
    The Hutch
    Reputation: rob1208lv's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    1,279
    How did it shift?

  77. #77
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    49
    First ride was +/-40 km in moist conditions.
    I felt 22<=>32 and 32<=>44 shifting as good, fast and clear as with the old 9 speed chain HG-93.
    No chain sucks, even with 22-36.
    It was possible to use all the 10 cogs with the 32. No chain rub with the front derailleur.

    Rear shifting was as good as it is supposed to be for Shimano XT, but I still prefer the smoothness of the “old” 9s Shimano XT or XTR drive trains.

  78. #78
    The Hutch
    Reputation: rob1208lv's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    1,279
    I am going to run 9spd front D/shifter and crankset, with 10spd rear D/shifter and cassette 11-36. But I want to change my front chain rings. Where can I but good replacements sized 24/36?

  79. #79
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    958

    Smile

    just finished up a road test up and down some hilly streets with a poor mans
    10 speed upgrade with some parts from CRC
    Changed the rear cassette to a Shimano XT11-36 ten speed.
    replaced the rear derailleur to a XT shadow M773 medium cage
    replaced rear shifter to a XT 10 speed
    and the best, KMC X10 93 10 speed chain with a sram link
    front inner and middle chainrings are action tec ti 8,9 speed stuff
    outer is a run of the mill cheap 8/9 speed ring.
    non of the chain rings have any ramps or pins.

    shifting is spectacular. the new shimano ratio change along with smaller gaps
    of the cogs, gives a very smooth and precise shifting. not quite the
    click and bang into gear of the nine speed shimano, thats ok though.

    also the front derailleur is much easier to dial in with the skinnier chain

  80. #80
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    3
    An interesting thing to note: the new XTR derailleur is listed on Shimano's website with a capacity of 41 teeth, meaning that if coupled with the new 42-32-24 cranks, the biggest sprocket in the rear should be with 34 teeth. There is nothing wrong with that, of course, but it kinda negates the point of the whole 10 speed transition, at least the way Shimano is trying to push it. If I'm going to use the same 11-34 sprockets in the rear (with one extra gear sqeezed between say 20 and 23T) and I'm willing to pair them with the aforementioned cranks, what I'm getting would be a net decrease in usable range, both in the low and top end. Or maybe I should be getting the 38-26 cranks with a 36T cassette? Same thing, what I'm getting on the low end is a 36:26 ~ 1,38 gear ratio. Compare that to the 34:22 ~ 1,54 gear ratio that is common with 9 speed setups. If this reduction is a bad thing depends on lot of things.

    The XT and SLX derailleurs are listed with capacity of 43T, which fits the bill exactly - again assuming 42-32-24 cranks are used, a 36T cassette becomes a no-issue. The highest ratio will be 36:24 = 1,5, actually still lower than what you get with 9 speed setups today.

    So what we're getting with the new 10 speed is a closer-ratio transmission; more gears squeezed in a narrower range - which translates in smaller percepted difference between adjacent gears. I think that's the selling point that Shimano is trying to push on their website, but they got stuck in some sort of marketing talk instead of getting to the core.

    Using 44-32-22 cranks seems to be the best of both worlds then: retain the sweet 11:44 = 0,25 top gear ratio, extend the highest ratio to 36:22 ~ 1,63, and get an extra gear in between. The only problem is that such configuration would require a derailleur with 47T capacity, which may be impossible to achieve within some strength/weight requirements. Of course, all is not lost, as you can read here.

    Hope this may be useful when considering the switch to ten speed

  81. #81
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Posts
    18
    frankly i would never have "switched" to 10 spd. it came on a new bike. 2x9,or 3x9,.. i cant imagine NEEDING more than that

  82. #82
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    900
    ^ Nobody *needs* more than a single speed, or even a bicycle. One can always walk.

    All these posts saying "I'm more righteous because I don't need as many gears as are available nowadays" or "anyone who likes to have more gears than I do is incompetent/unfit/corrupt/works for Shimano" are getting a bit tedious...

    Maybe it's time to start a new thread - or flame war - about who (apart from singlespeeders) can get away with the least gears. Now, should that be front, rear, both, or the two multiplied together?

  83. #83
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    70
    Note sure if this has been covered but I'm getting one of the new pivot mach 4's.

    To stagger the costs a bit I'm going to use the drivetrain off my old bike, which is a full XT 9 speed setup.
    The mach4 needs a direct mount front derailleur which my old bike doesn't have so I was thinking about getting a 10speed front derailleur and using it will my 9 speed drivetrain until I can afford to upgrade the rest of the drivetrain to 10 speed XT.

    Will this work? or is it more trouble than it's worth?

    Thanks for the help

  84. #84
    The Hutch
    Reputation: rob1208lv's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    1,279
    2 issues
    1. I wanted to replace my chain rings on my xtr chrank with 26, 36 setup, but my lbs said xtr cranks only work with xtr chain rings?
    2. I wanted to run my 9speed crank front d and shifter with 10 speed rear drive train (cassette, chain , shifter and rear d) but the lbs said won't cause chain won't fit the crank?
    Are these statements true?

  85. #85
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    958
    Quote Originally Posted by rob1208lv
    2 issues
    1. I wanted to replace my chain rings on my xtr chrank with 26, 36 setup, but my lbs said xtr cranks only work with xtr chain rings?
    2. I wanted to run my 9speed crank front d and shifter with 10 speed rear drive train (cassette, chain , shifter and rear d) but the lbs said won't cause chain won't fit the crank?
    Are these statements true?
    I have about 110 miles on a poor mans 10 speed conversion, which is old school 8,9 speed
    non ramped and non pinned front chainrings, 9speed FD. everything else is 10 speed.
    running a KMC x10-93 chain with the shimano xt cassette with no problems
    bike has never shifted so well. so your lbs is either telling you the company line or
    does not know that mixing will work.

  86. #86
    The Hutch
    Reputation: rob1208lv's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    1,279
    Quote Originally Posted by mtbmitch2
    I have about 110 miles on a poor mans 10 speed conversion, which is old school 8,9 speed
    non ramped and non pinned front chainrings, 9speed FD. everything else is 10 speed.
    running a KMC x10-93 chain with the shimano xt cassette with no problems
    bike has never shifted so well. so your lbs is either telling you the company line or
    does not know that mixing will work.
    So what chain rings (26,36) do I buy for my xtr crankset? that are no pinned or ramped (M970)
    and will the new dyna sys 10speed chain work on the 9speed crank and chainrings?

  87. #87
    mtbr member
    Reputation: CMu_dogtag's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    76

    Drop Bar Mix & Match?

    I have Ultegra shifters, Ultegra triple crank, Ultegra triple FD and Ultegra RD med cage.

    Will this drivetrain work with an XT 10spd cassette? Maybe a 32 or 34 tooth cassette?

  88. #88
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Posts
    21

    no 10 speed for me?

    hello,


    i now use 9sp trigger shifters with a rapid rise rear derailler.
    i use this setup so i can shift te same way on my internal geared gt it dh bike.
    so i do not want to change that

    so i can not use a rapid rise 9 speed derailler with 10 sp shifters?
    and shimano does not make 10 speed rapid rise deraillers?


    so is there no way i can get 10 speed on my bike?
    without having to shift te other way as on my dh bike?


    grtz, wouter

  89. #89
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    900
    You should be able to do this by using 10 speed road shifters with a 9 speed rapid rise rear derailleur. You can either use the flat bar rapidfire plus shifters or bar-end/downtube (7800, not 7900) levers with Paul thumbshifter mounts. I'm not sure how well the LH flatbar RF+ shifeter will work with a MTB front derailleur, but it's only the RH one that's important for 10 speed anyway. It'd be easier just to abandon rapid rise.

  90. #90
    Old-newbie
    Reputation: g3rG's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    379
    I just converted my bike using the following:

    Sram 10 speed chain
    Shimano rear cassette (Dynasys XT)
    Shimano shifter (XT Dynasys)
    SRAM XO 9sp rear derailleur

    It turns out the full pull on the new Shimano 10sp shifter is identical to the full pull on the old Sram 9sp shifter. Assuming everything is linear, that means a Shimano shifter should work with the Sram RD, with the 10 detent positions set by the shifter. I have a Hammerschmidt up front, so nothing to do there.

    I set it up last night, and it shifts perfectly. I intend to torture test it tomorrow on the trails.

    gerG

    Update: I have had this combo on several rides now. It is working perfectly. It shifts smoothly and quickly under low to moderate load, and about like any other setup if do the dumb thing and shift it under high load. I have noticed a slight hesitation to downshift (step to larger rear cog) on one of the middle gears. It is almost like the spacing is slightly off in the cassette. A couple of clicks on the adjustment barrel got rid of it. The only real issue is that I miss the aggressive shifting behavior of the Saint parts that I removed to try this setup. The positives are the lower granny gear, and the lighter chain (less chain slap).
    Last edited by g3rG; 11-20-2010 at 02:27 PM.
    ...uphill uphill uphill DOWNHILL! uphill uphill uphill uphill DOWNHILL! uphill ...

  91. #91
    dwt
    dwt is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation: dwt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    4,169
    Read through the sticky - much thanks to OP.

    One more time, to be clear:

    If I am now running 1 x 9 (Truvative Stylo 1.1 up front) and want a 10 speed block and that extra 36 cog in back, I can keep the Stylo 1.1, and "all" I need is a 10 speed cassette, chain, rear derailleur, and shifter.

    TIA
    Old enough to know better. And old enough not to care. Best age to be.

  92. #92
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    958
    Quote Originally Posted by dwt
    Read through the sticky - much thanks to OP.

    One more time, to be clear:

    If I am now running 1 x 9 (Truvative Stylo 1.1 up front) and want a 10 speed block and that extra 36 cog in back, I can keep the Stylo 1.1, and "all" I need is a 10 speed cassette, chain, rear derailleur, and shifter.

    TIA

    yes

  93. #93
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    78
    a sunrace driven is also 10sp compatibel.
    At the moment I use it 9 speed:

    http://nifrodne.blogspot.com/2010/11...ce-driven.html

  94. #94
    Ride or Die!
    Reputation: CasinoKiD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    776
    I'm getting a little confused...
    Will a 2010 9 speed XT crankset work with:
    10 speed rings
    10 speed RD
    10 speed FD
    10 speed chain
    10 speed shifters

    I currently have a XT Dynasys 10 speed crankset that I am using that is a 175mm. I have a XT 9 speed crankset that is 170mm that I would like to use. Will it work with the rings from the Dynasys 10 speed crankset?

  95. #95
    The Hutch
    Reputation: rob1208lv's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    1,279
    Quote Originally Posted by CasinoKiD
    I'm getting a little confused...
    Will a 2010 9 speed XT crankset work with:
    10 speed rings
    10 speed RD
    10 speed FD
    10 speed chain
    10 speed shifters

    I currently have a XT Dynasys 10 speed crankset that I am using that is a 175mm. I have a XT 9 speed crankset that is 170mm that I would like to use. Will it work with the rings from the Dynasys 10 speed crankset?
    It should work as long as the crank arms have the same bolt pattern. Come by (i'm in vegas also PM me if you want ) and we will put it together and check it out.

  96. #96
    Rider and Wrench
    Reputation: knottshore's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    1,478
    I just ordered a set of XTR 10 speed shifters, Rear Derailleur, Chain and an XT 11-36T Cassette- I will run this with my current XTR 970 cranks and Front Der and should have no issue from what this thread indicates...

    A bit of a catch the bike is a pivot 429 with a direct mount XTR Front Der, I noticed at least one post that had some initial issues with the 9 spd front der/cranks and needed to move the FD up a bit to get the front shifting to work at all- I hope I can make it work without it as it is a bit tough on a direct mount FD!!!

    Long story short-

    Has anyone else who actually went the 10 speed route with just the rear cass, rear der, chain and shifters matched with 9spd FD and Crankset needed to change the orientation of the FD to get the shifting dialed in???

    Thanks
    I Just wish I could ride more!


  97. #97
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    84
    I'm thinking of getting an XTR rear and shifter to do my 1x10 setup. I will probably run an XX cassette.

  98. #98
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    34
    Very interesting!

    Which cassette did you go with? I'm curious as to the clearance for the 11-36 with the X.0 9s.

    Quote Originally Posted by g3rG
    I just converted my bike using the following:

    Sram 10 speed chain
    Shimano rear cassette (Dynasys XT)
    Shimano shifter (XT Dynasys)
    SRAM XO 9sp rear derailleur

  99. #99
    www.derbyrims.com
    Reputation: derby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    6,764
    Quote Originally Posted by tree_trunks
    Very interesting!

    Which cassette did you go with? I'm curious as to the clearance for the 11-36 with the X.0 9s.
    This confirms what I read only once before. The Dyna-sys cable pull to rear derailleur rate is 1:1, like SRAM (9 Speed) now. I haven't heard if SRAM changed from 1:1 to something else for XX.

    BTW, a Shimano HG 12-36 (LX) works for me with SRAM 9-speed rear ders. The XX and Dyna-shift have the same cog spacing.

    Thanks!

  100. #100
    Rider and Wrench
    Reputation: knottshore's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    1,478
    Quote Originally Posted by knottshore
    I just ordered a set of XTR 10 speed shifters, Rear Derailleur, Chain and an XT 11-36T Cassette- I will run this with my current XTR 970 cranks and Front Der and should have no issue from what this thread indicates...

    A bit of a catch the bike is a pivot 429 with a direct mount XTR Front Der, I noticed at least one post that had some initial issues with the 9 spd front der/cranks and needed to move the FD up a bit to get the front shifting to work at all- I hope I can make it work without it as it is a bit tough on a direct mount FD!!!

    Long story short-

    Has anyone else who actually went the 10 speed route with just the rear cass, rear der, chain and shifters matched with 9spd FD and Crankset needed to change the orientation of the FD to get the shifting dialed in???

    Thanks

    Well no issues with the Direct mount front derailleur- went on the first ride today with it and the 10spd shifters/RD/cassette worked well with the 9spd front der/cranks no issues-

    The only thing I did notice is that when in the center chainring up front and on the 36T in the back it seemed to put a bunch of stress on the chain/RD and made a bit of a noise- no real issue but it did not seem right? never happened with the 9 spd 11-34 - I have not looked into it yet but wondering if the spacing on the 10 speed cranks/rear cassette changes and if it could be enough to alter the center ring chainline???
    I Just wish I could ride more!


  101. #101
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    3,457
    Quote Originally Posted by knottshore
    Well no issues with the Direct mount front derailleur- went on the first ride today with it and the 10spd shifters/RD/cassette worked well with the 9spd front der/cranks no issues-

    The only thing I did notice is that when in the center chainring up front and on the 36T in the back it seemed to put a bunch of stress on the chain/RD and made a bit of a noise- no real issue but it did not seem right? never happened with the 9 spd 11-34 - I have not looked into it yet but wondering if the spacing on the 10 speed cranks/rear cassette changes and if it could be enough to alter the center ring chainline???
    The noise could be the top pulley wheel rubbing the 36t cog?
    Your B adjustment screw will fix this.

  102. #102
    Rider and Wrench
    Reputation: knottshore's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    1,478
    Quote Originally Posted by the mayor
    The noise could be the top pulley wheel rubbing the 36t cog?
    Your B adjustment screw will fix this.
    Thanks for the feedback, good possibility for sure- I checked the spring tension and adjusted the screw and made sure the upper cog was not touching the 36T cog when I did the initial install, so I am not sure that was it. The noise was most noticable during the first ride, I did not notice it too much if at all now that the chain, cogs and cassette have a few miles on them... or the drive train is dirty and hiding it...
    I Just wish I could ride more!


  103. #103
    Old-newbie
    Reputation: g3rG's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    379
    Quote Originally Posted by tree_trunks
    Very interesting!

    Which cassette did you go with? I'm curious as to the clearance for the 11-36 with the X.0 9s.
    Hi tree_trunks, sorry for the delay.

    I have the Shimano HG81 11-36 cassette on the rear. So far it is behaving perfectly. To tell you the truth, I have gotten distracted by other bike parts (fork rebuild, new lights, etc) and forgot all about the driveline. I got one ghost shift last week, but it was after a pretty solid crash. Other than that it has done nothing to draw my attention.

    I haven't done any actual measurements. Would pictures help?

    gerG
    ...uphill uphill uphill DOWNHILL! uphill uphill uphill uphill DOWNHILL! uphill ...

  104. #104
    The Hutch
    Reputation: rob1208lv's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    1,279
    Can you use a sram gold quick link on a shimano xt dyna sys 10spd chain?

  105. #105
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    70
    Hi, I think this is a very similar question but asked in reverse, sorry if it's been asked before.

    Basically I have an 9 speed xt setup and want to migrate to 10 sp soon.

    I have 165mm xt 9 sp cranks and want 170mm so I was thinking of buying a xt 10sp crankset and putting the 9sp rings on until I can afford the rest of the 10sp setup.

    Will the 9sp rings fit on a 10sp crank arms?

  106. #106
    mtbr member
    Reputation: nixgame22's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    538
    Quote Originally Posted by with_the_band
    Will the 9sp rings fit on a 10sp crank arms?
    I don't believe there is a difference in crank arms between the 9/10 speed. So yes,whichever chainrings you choose will fit on the crank, as long as you have the correct spacing 104bd.
    Maintain internal heights.

  107. #107
    meow, meow.
    Reputation: J. Random Psycho's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    2,495
    Guess I'm being a Slowpoke here, but anyway:

    1. Is it true that 10-speed Shimano MTB chains are the same width between inner plates as 9-speed chains?
    2. Is it true that 10-speed Shimano MTB cassette cogs are the same thickness as 9-speed cogs?
    3. Is it true that 10-speed SRAM chains intended for 10-speed SRAM MTB drivetrains are narrower between inner plates than 9-speed chains?
    4. Is it true that 10-speed SRAM MTB cassette cogs are narrower than 9-speed cogs?
    26" rigid SS 4130 BB7 nylon-flats ESI latex-tubes non-lubricated-8spd

  108. #108
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    900
    1. Probably not. I know that the Shimano *road* 10 speed cogs are slightly thinner than the 9 speed ones. I haven't had a chance to measure the MTB ones.
    2. I think Shiggy made some comment about this, but I don't remember the answer.
    3. Probably, but haven't measured it.
    4. Ditto.

    (There's not enough of this stuff around in my part of the world for me to measure yet.)

  109. #109
    meow, meow.
    Reputation: J. Random Psycho's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    2,495
    The reason I asked is because of this post earlier on this thread.

    If this is indeed so, then I would gladly move from 9 to 10 on my FS rig (which is the inverse of my previous no-no opinion on 10-speed).

    Right now I too don't have any 10-speed parts around to measure them.
    26" rigid SS 4130 BB7 nylon-flats ESI latex-tubes non-lubricated-8spd

  110. #110
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    900
    What exactly are you hoping will happen? I'm afraid I don't quite see where you're coming from with the questions asked. (Also, see Shiggy's post #58.)

    I think Shiggy has said elsewhere that the Shimano 10 speed MTB cassettes use thicker cogs than their 10 speed road cassettes. This wouldn't be a bad thing for cassette durability but might reduce compatibility with Sram, etc.

    If you're hoping that the Shimano 10 speed MTB stuff has the same thickness cogs and rollers as 9 speed my question is: "How does the extra cog fit into the same space then?" It *might* be that the outer plates are flatter than the road chains and that's how they get away with it(?). If the plates are thinner this cannot be a good thing for durability IMHO.

    Really, the only answer is to measure the various bits accurately, and it's still all too new and exotic for me to be able to do this without buying everything(!).

  111. #111
    meow, meow.
    Reputation: J. Random Psycho's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    2,495
    Quote Originally Posted by satanas
    What exactly are you hoping will happen? I'm afraid I don't quite see where you're coming from with the questions asked. (Also, see Shiggy's post #58.)

    I think Shiggy has said elsewhere that the Shimano 10 speed MTB cassettes use thicker cogs than their 10 speed road cassettes. This wouldn't be a bad thing for cassette durability but might reduce compatibility with Sram, etc.
    Yes, it's the possibility that cassette and chain life expectancy has been retained, by Shimano engineers, similar to that of 9-speed parts. And that it's true only for Shimano Dyna-sys parts.

    In other words, Dyna-sys is possibly the best thing that could happen to drivetrains since 8-speed XTR. And that 9-speed Shimano solutions for MTB can now (possibly) be regarded as evolutionary dead end. And that we should expect the Saint group to migrate to 10-speed, with addition of narrow range cassettes (although I would have preferred it in 8-speed, 1:1 flavor -- but that would mean another standard to support).


    Quote Originally Posted by satanas
    If you're hoping that the Shimano 10 speed MTB stuff has the same thickness cogs and rollers as 9 speed my question is: "How does the extra cog fit into the same space then?" It *might* be that the outer plates are flatter than the road chains and that's how they get away with it(?). If the plates are thinner this cannot be a good thing for durability IMHO.
    Well, they have reduced cog spacing but not cog thickness, and called it Dyna-sys. Then, to make a chain that would optimally work with such cassette, they somehow narrowed outer plates and pins, but retained the same 9-speed distance between inner plates. This "specialness" of the chain agrees with Shimano recommendations of what chain to use with their 10-speed MTB drivetrains.

    For durability (as wear resistance), what matters most (it's IMHO too) is the width of bushing-emulation protrusions on the inner plates. Most wear on the chain happens where these contact the pins.

    For durability-as-tensile-strength, I have no idea how the narrower outer plates compare to 9-speed ones and to all other kinds of 10-speed chains. Maybe there was some strength reserve in 9-speed plates that was used up in Dyna-sys.
    26" rigid SS 4130 BB7 nylon-flats ESI latex-tubes non-lubricated-8spd

  112. #112
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    900
    FWIW, I'm still using 8 speed XTR - haven't broken anything yet! I do have one MTB with 9 speed, but went straight to 10 speed on the road and have had no problems there.

    Personally, I like the cog choices for 10 speed Shimano a lot better than anything else MTB so far, but would like to be able to use twist shifters so will hold out for a while and see if Sram deliver the goods.

    I agree that if Shimano have somehow managed to make the chain narrower without killing durability it's a good thing. Maybe they're just making everything with a bit closer tolerances - after all, there's plenty of people who've been using 9 speed chains on 8 speed drivetrains, 10 on 9 etc, so perhaps they were being a bit conservative before. (And the new actuation ratios mean that more precise adjustment is possible than before, thus meaning closer tolerances won't drive everyone insane.)

    Not sure about Shimano's recommendations as they have had a very long history of saying "only this combo will work" when there have often been others which have been fine. Things may not be "special" as Shimano would like us to think, but this is speculation on my part, albeit based on experience.

  113. #113
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Dictatorsaurus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    2,658
    Can I use a sram 9-speed Powerlink with a Shimano 10-speed mtb chain?

    If not, what kind of quick connect can I use with a 10-speed shimano chain?

  114. #114
    Rider and Wrench
    Reputation: knottshore's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    1,478
    Quote Originally Posted by Dictatorsaurus
    Can I use a sram 9-speed Powerlink with a Shimano 10-speed mtb chain?

    If not, what kind of quick connect can I use with a 10-speed shimano chain?
    The Sram 9 speed (or other such as KMC etc..) will be too wide- I used a wipperman connex 10 speed link on my 10 speed xtr chain and it has been working great- no issues after quite a few rides...
    I Just wish I could ride more!


  115. #115
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Dictatorsaurus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    2,658
    Quote Originally Posted by knottshore
    The Sram 9 speed (or other such as KMC etc..) will be too wide- I used a wipperman connex 10 speed link on my 10 speed xtr chain and it has been working great- no issues after quite a few rides...
    The wipperman connect comes in different widths. 6.1, 6.5 and 7.2. Which one works with 10 speed mtb chains?

  116. #116
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Rainerhq's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    91
    Quote Originally Posted by nxxx
    An interesting thing to note: the new XTR derailleur is listed on Shimano's website with a capacity of 41 teeth, meaning that if coupled with the new 42-32-24 cranks, the biggest sprocket in the rear should be with 34 teeth. There is nothing wrong with that, of course, but it kinda negates the point of the whole 10 speed transition, at least the way Shimano is trying to push it. If I'm going to use the same 11-34 sprockets in the rear (with one extra gear sqeezed between say 20 and 23T) and I'm willing to pair them with the aforementioned cranks, what I'm getting would be a net decrease in usable range, both in the low and top end. Or maybe I should be getting the 38-26 cranks with a 36T cassette? Same thing, what I'm getting on the low end is a 36:26 ~ 1,38 gear ratio. Compare that to the 34:22 ~ 1,54 gear ratio that is common with 9 speed setups. If this reduction is a bad thing depends on lot of things.
    Most derailleurs are under rated by two teeth from the real maximum of what they can truly accept. It is common for a 28 tooth max rear capacity to be pushed easily to use a 30 tooth cog.
    http://www.bikepro.com/products/rear...lleurover.html
    "Nothing compares to the simple pleasure of a bike ride"

  117. #117
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    74

    my experiment with 9 and 10 speed mix

    I just thought I'd share my experience.

    Santa just brought me a 2011 Giant Trance X3 with a shimano 3x10 slx shifters, front and rear derailieur, cassette and deore crank with slx 10s rings.

    I recently jumped at the chance to buy an LX crank at jensonusa for a great price. I wanted to install the LX crank on the new bike, but the tabs for the middle ring wasn't compatible with the LX crank. I instead swapped the OE granny and outer ring and left the 9s LX ring and installed on the bike.

    Long story short, it works great so far. Haven't taken it out on the trail yet, but i works great riding around the neighborhood. And after closer inspection, the OE 24t granny ring is inscribed with SG-X, which is a 9 speed ring.

    Hope this info might help some that have questions about using 9s rings and cranks with 10s drivetrains.

  118. #118
    Rider and Wrench
    Reputation: knottshore's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    1,478
    Quote Originally Posted by Dictatorsaurus
    The wipperman connect comes in different widths. 6.1, 6.5 and 7.2. Which one works with 10 speed mtb chains?
    It is sold as being for "10 speed" chains and from what a quick search turned up it is the 6.1 mm width. Here is a link of one like I used:

    http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...#ht_500wt_1156

    I did not try a KMC or SRAM link but those could work as well (there are a lot of variables with these as well) , I have had luck with the wipperman links in the past; reusable, stainless steel, and easy to install/remove (no pinching while pushing, squeezing and pulling.... all at once like some of the links out there)

    Hope this helps-
    I Just wish I could ride more!


  119. #119
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    185
    Just got the bike back from the LBS with my frankenbike 10 speed “Dyna Sys” conversion. My set up is as follows;
    X9 10 speed R derailleur medium cage
    X9 10 speed rear shifter
    SLX 10 speed 11-36 cassette
    XT 10 speed chain
    XT 9 speed front derailleur
    X9 9 speed front shifter
    TruVativ crank with 9 speed 24/36 rings
    Took it for a ride around the neighborhood including some climbs and went through all the gears and everything shifts fine. No problems at all. Except that the LBS left the chain waaaaaaaaay too long, but that’s another story. When I told the LBS what I wanted to do the mechanic swore up and down that it could not be done, that a 10 speed chain would not work on 9 speed rings. But since I’m working 6 days a week and don’t want to wrench my bike on the 7th day, I told him to just do it and give it a try. If anyone wants to do a 10 speed conversion on the cheap, don’t let your LBS talk you into getting 10 speed cranks, rings, front d and shifter. They can make it work with your existing 9 speed stuff.

  120. #120
    Team U.G.L.Y.
    Reputation: cpclydesdale's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    4
    Has anyone dealt with Dyna-sys chainring not meshing with a kmc 10 speed chain?

    My 9 to 10 speed conversion is as follows: SRAM flat-bar double-tap (right) and keeping my grip micro-index left, x-7 10s R.der., 1080 11-36 cassette, kmc x10 ti chain, keeping slx F.der., keeping deus triple cranks, but changing rings to 26(64bcd) and 38(104bcd) with a bash guard outer. I'm considering and XTR 26t as it's available now at distributor's website. What I've heard is 9/10 speed chainrings are interchangeable.

  121. #121
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    4
    I've read the majority of the posts in this thread, searched the internet and talked to my LBS looking for an answer to the below. If I overlooked this information somewhere, please forgive the unattentive.

    Has anyone found info on a 46t outer that is compatible with the Dyna Sys XT / FC-M770-10 / Hollowtech 2 Crankset?

    Thanks,

    Jason

  122. #122
    Rider and Wrench
    Reputation: knottshore's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    1,478
    Quote Originally Posted by cpclydesdale
    Has anyone dealt with Dyna-sys chainring not meshing with a kmc 10 speed chain?

    My 9 to 10 speed conversion is as follows: SRAM flat-bar double-tap (right) and keeping my grip micro-index left, x-7 10s R.der., 1080 11-36 cassette, kmc x10 ti chain, keeping slx F.der., keeping deus triple cranks, but changing rings to 26(64bcd) and 38(104bcd) with a bash guard outer. I'm considering and XTR 26t as it's available now at distributor's website. What I've heard is 9/10 speed chainrings are interchangeable.
    I am not sure what granny/26T ring your currently running but can't imagine much benefit your going to see going to an xtr 9 or 10 speed... you may also run into spacing issues with the xtr granny ring, even though the bcd is still 64mm they are offset about 2.5mm different.

    Adding the 10 speed ring may alter the spacing even if it is not xtr and your slx 9 speed front der may not function properly as well- someone is welcome to chime in but I believe the 10 speed shimano cranks are not changed from 9 to 10spd but the rings alter the spacing, making it more narrow to accommodate the 10spd chain.
    I Just wish I could ride more!


  123. #123
    KPH
    KPH is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    99
    Can't see this exact combo listed here - will this work ?

    XTR 10 speed 3 chaing ring crankset (NEW)
    XTR 9 speed front derailler (& shifter)
    9 speed chain (KMC)
    XT 9 speed cassette
    XTR 9 speed rear mech (& shifter)

    Thanks in advance

    (want to 'upgrade' from XT 9 speed crankset)

  124. #124
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Dictatorsaurus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    2,658
    Quote Originally Posted by KPH
    Can't see this exact combo listed here - will this work ?

    XTR 10 speed 3 chaing ring crankset (NEW)
    XTR 9 speed front derailler (& shifter)
    9 speed chain (KMC)
    XT 9 speed cassette
    XTR 9 speed rear mech (& shifter)

    Thanks in advance

    (want to 'upgrade' from XT 9 speed crankset)
    Everything should work but you might need to use a ten speed chain and maybe a ten speed FD.

  125. #125
    mtbr member
    Reputation: thecanoe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    1,360
    If I put a 2011 XTR front shifter on my 9sp SLX setup, will the front (22/32/bash) shift with less throw than the existing SLX front shifter?
    My left arthritic thumb doesn't like the long throw of the SLX front.
    Santa Cruz Tallboy
    Moonlander

  126. #126
    Rider and Wrench
    Reputation: knottshore's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    1,478
    Quote Originally Posted by thecanoe
    If I put a 2011 XTR front shifter on my 9sp SLX setup, will the front (22/32/bash) shift with less throw than the existing SLX front shifter?
    My left arthritic thumb doesn't like the long throw of the SLX front.
    The cable pull of the left shifter does not change just the geometry of the FD cage.... but an xt or xtr shifter(9 or 10 speed) does seem to have less" throw" than the silly amount slx has. I had a set of slx 9 spd on my wife's ride and was surprised to find how far you had to push with your thumb....
    I Just wish I could ride more!


  127. #127
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    49
    Have read this thread all over n found very interesting information on drive train, especially shimano. Right now I'm planning on building a cyclocross bike that i can use also to commute daily and touring. For drive train i plan to use Dura-Ace 9/10 down tube shifter with 9/10 speed deore XT FD, crankset, RD and cassette. Will it work smoothly.? Pls I need to know your advice/experience before I really buy them and end up useless.

  128. #128
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    4

    Race Face Cogs for DynaSys

    Quote Originally Posted by JasonRad
    I've read the majority of the posts in this thread, searched the internet and talked to my LBS looking for an answer to the below. If I overlooked this information somewhere, please forgive the unattentive.

    Has anyone found info on a 46t outer that is compatible with the Dyna Sys XT / FC-M770-10 / Hollowtech 2 Crankset?

    Thanks,

    Jason
    I had sent an inquiry to Race Face about the above question, as well as a question on replacement chainrings in general for the DynaSys cranks. Below was there response if anyone was interested.

    "We have just recently released RaceFace Turbine 3x10 rings. We really have not tested these rings to see if they will work with Shimano 10 speed cranks yet. We will have that test done within the next couple of weeks and will be able to better comment on your question then. For now you can assume that RaceFace 3x10 rings are not compatible with newer Shimano cranks. We currently do not have plans for a Turbine Type S 10 speed ringset, but that may change.

    Sincerely,

    RF | raceface.com | 604-527-9996"

    Jason

  129. #129
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    185
    Quote Originally Posted by JasonRad
    I had sent an inquiry to Race Face about the above question, as well as a question on replacement chainrings in general for the DynaSys cranks. Below was there response if anyone was interested.

    "We have just recently released RaceFace Turbine 3x10 rings. We really have not tested these rings to see if they will work with Shimano 10 speed cranks yet. We will have that test done within the next couple of weeks and will be able to better comment on your question then. For now you can assume that RaceFace 3x10 rings are not compatible with newer Shimano cranks. We currently do not have plans for a Turbine Type S 10 speed ringset, but that may change.

    Sincerely,

    RF | raceface.com | 604-527-9996"

    Jason

    My question would be, as long as it has the same bolt pattern, why won't it work? It's not like Shimano made some magical breakthrough when they came out with Dyna-sys, they added one cog in the rear, whoop-de-do. I'm currently using 9 speed rings and crank with 10 speed shimano cassette/chain and 10 speed SRAM shifter and it works. In the past I've mixed and matched Race Face/Crank Brothers/Blackspire/Shimano/Tru Vativ rings and cranks. They've all worked no matter the mixed of rings and cranks. I just think RF and Shimano are making things way more complicated than warranted when they say things are not compatable. It's a friggin bike, not a rocket ship.

  130. #130
    Rider and Wrench
    Reputation: knottshore's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    1,478
    Quote Originally Posted by puckhead
    My question would be, as long as it has the same bolt pattern, why won't it work? It's not like Shimano made some magical breakthrough when they came out with Dyna-sys, they added one cog in the rear, whoop-de-do. I'm currently using 9 speed rings and crank with 10 speed shimano cassette/chain and 10 speed SRAM shifter and it works. In the past I've mixed and matched Race Face/Crank Brothers/Blackspire/Shimano/Tru Vativ rings and cranks. They've all worked no matter the mixed of rings and cranks. I just think RF and Shimano are making things way more complicated than warranted when they say things are not compatable. It's a friggin bike, not a rocket ship.
    Notice race face did not say they wouldn't work.... they simply said at this point they have not been able to test to confirm, aka cya. 104bcd chainrings don't mean that the spacing for the chain will work, just because the bolt circle is the same... prime example xtr, same 104 bcd different offset.
    I Just wish I could ride more!


  131. #131
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    900
    Quote Originally Posted by huka
    For drive train i plan to use Dura-Ace 9/10 down tube shifter with 9/10 speed deore XT FD, crankset, RD and cassette.
    Should work fine as long as you match the shifer and cassette and DO NOT use a Dynasys rear mech.

  132. #132
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    130
    opps wrong thread
    Last edited by LORENZ; 02-05-2011 at 02:46 PM.

  133. #133
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Dictatorsaurus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    2,658
    Edit.
    Last edited by Dictatorsaurus; 02-06-2011 at 10:15 AM.

  134. #134
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    49
    Quote Originally Posted by satanas
    Should work fine as long as you match the shifer and cassette and DO NOT use a Dynasys rear mech.
    Does it mean I can not use Dynasys RD and Cassette with 10 speed Dura-Ace down tube shifter ?

  135. #135
    Sup
    Reputation: Burnt-Orange's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    1,696
    10 speed cassette cog 1.65mm
    9 speed cassette cog 1.8mm
    both xt

    Sj
    I am slow therefore I am

  136. #136
    mtbr member
    Reputation: boomn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    10,035
    Quote Originally Posted by huka
    Does it mean I can not use Dynasys RD and Cassette with 10 speed Dura-Ace down tube shifter ?
    Correct. Cable pull is different between the Shimano 10spd road parts and the Shimano DynaSys mountain parts

  137. #137
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    900
    ^ This is true, but not complete. All indexed Shimano road rear mechs (except old Dura-Ace 74xx, and the latest Dura-Ace 79xx) and *all* other Shimano MTB, hybrid, etc, rear mechs use the same cable travel - except DynaSys.

    Also, MTB and road front ferailleurs use different cable travel (MTB >), and the most recent Dura-Ace and Ultegra use a little more than the previous generation. It is not clear (to me) if the latter is due entirely to spacing changes (the rings are slightly further apart than previous 10 speed) or whether perhaps the geometry might be a little different too. FWIW, I've used older 7/8 speed spaced rings with 7800 10 speed everything else with no issues.

    The (non-indexed) bar-end shifters won't care much about the front cable travel as long as there's enough in total, and they will work with MTB front mechs and 3 rings so you should have no problems.

    Please be careful when ordering the shifters as 7800 use the "normal" Shimano travel same as non-DynaSys MRB), while 7900 are incompatible with MTB mechs, etc. 7800 still will not work with DynaSys, but neither will 7900.

  138. #138
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    3
    I have a 2011 trek fuel ex8. It has a shimano m552 10 spd dyna-sys crankset. I would like to know if I can put the 10 spd dyna-sys chainrings on my shimano xt 9 spd crank arms. Also will the arms fit on the bottom bracket.

  139. #139
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    32

    dynasys RD and shifters XX cassette

    I just re read this thread -thanks for all the info.

    This question has been asked twice, but not answered:-

    is an XX cassette compatible with dynasys RD and shifters?

    My understanding is that a dynasys cassette is wider than an XX cassette so I assume this wouldn't work.

    Anyone actually tried this?

    p.s. loving the simplicity and shifting on my xt 1 x10, but cassette WAY too heavy.

  140. #140
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    155
    I have a 9speed SLX groupset... Im thinking about getting a 10 speed XT Dynasys crank. Will it work with a 9speed cassette, 9 speed front & rear derailleur and a 9 speed chain. Or should I change something also? Reading through all the questions & replies kinda got me confuse a lil bit. Thanks!

    I only use the brake, so I can accelerate all over again...
    ..:: www.THELOBBY09.com ::..

  141. #141
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    188
    Has anyone tried putting a 9spd 22t granny on a Dyna-sys 10spd crankset? Will this work?

  142. #142
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    32

    DynaSys x SRAM 9 speed

    "2. Nine speed rear derailleurs will not work with 10 speed mountain rear shifters. They will however work with road “flat bar” 10 speed rear shifters. Dyna speed shifters pull twice as much cable per shift as 9 speed shifters, so if you use a 9 speed derailleur it shifts two gears for every one push."

    "This confirms what I read only once before. The Dyna-sys cable pull to rear derailleur rate is 1:1, like SRAM (9 Speed) now. I haven't heard if SRAM changed from 1:1 to something else for XX."

    "I believe the SRAM 10 speed works out as a 0.8:1 ratio now, their 8/9 speed stuff is 1:1, all shimano derailleurs except the new 10speed mtb (and the 7/8 speed DuraAce) are 2:1 and the shimano 10s MTB is I believe its been measured out as something like 1.25:1."


    Folks, sorry if i lost something in translation (english is not my native language).. Is it possible to use a 9 sp SRAM rear der in a full 10 sp DynaSys system(i.e. changing a XT RD-M773 for a X9)?
    Thanks.

  143. #143
    Rider and Wrench
    Reputation: knottshore's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    1,478
    Quote Originally Posted by Bikebr
    "2. Nine speed rear derailleurs will not work with 10 speed mountain rear shifters. They will however work with road “flat bar” 10 speed rear shifters. Dyna speed shifters pull twice as much cable per shift as 9 speed shifters, so if you use a 9 speed derailleur it shifts two gears for every one push."

    "This confirms what I read only once before. The Dyna-sys cable pull to rear derailleur rate is 1:1, like SRAM (9 Speed) now. I haven't heard if SRAM changed from 1:1 to something else for XX."

    "I believe the SRAM 10 speed works out as a 0.8:1 ratio now, their 8/9 speed stuff is 1:1, all shimano derailleurs except the new 10speed mtb (and the 7/8 speed DuraAce) are 2:1 and the shimano 10s MTB is I believe its been measured out as something like 1.25:1."


    Folks, sorry if i lost something in translation (english is not my native language).. Is it possible to use a 9 sp SRAM rear der in a full 10 sp DynaSys system(i.e. changing a XT RD-M773 for a X9)?
    Thanks.
    In short, NO. It is not possible even though Shimano shifters have changed from the previous 2:1 ratio to a ~ 1.25:1 ratio (or whatever it works out to be?) it is still not the same as 8/9 speed or 10 speed Sram cable pull. Front Derailleur wise you would be ok with either, 8, 9 or 10 speed 3X shifters (2X add different issues) cable pull wise from either Shimano or Sram...
    I Just wish I could ride more!


  144. #144
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    42
    Does anyone know the q factor on the new XTR 2x10 cranks? I know that the M985 (race) has a q factor which is 6mm lower than the M980 (trail). Assuming that the trail retains the same q factor of the last gen M970 (even here I am unsure, having read a q factor of either 169mm or 166mm), that would put the M985s at 160mm - 162mm...though I have also read that they are 2mm wider than the lowest available q factor on the xx (156m), which is then 158mm.

    I'm looking to take my Giant Anthem to a double front with XTR cranks and finding that there is not only little, but conflicting information out there.

    Hedge

  145. #145
    Threading freely...
    Reputation: polymathic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    319
    I read this interesting thread very carefully, and I have a compatibility question that has not been covered yet. (Unless I missed it.)

    Currently, I'm running a 2x9: X9 short cage rear derailleur, SRAM pg 990 cassette, X9 shifters, XT crank, XT front derailleur.

    Unfortunately, my riding and the X9 RD don't work well together, and I seem to bend my derailleur hanger every couple of weeks. So I want to switch to a Shimano Shadow RD, which would require me to change the shifters as well. But I was wondering....

    Could I change my X9 RD for a XT 10s RD, but keep everything else as is? (I guess I would also need to get a 10s chain?) Since the ratio of the XT 10s system is now 1:1, my x9 shifters should work. When my cassette wears out, I could get a 10s replacement and then upgrade my shifters so I can use the full 10s range. Would this work? Seems like the cheapest step for me, while working my way up to a 10s system down the road.

    Thanks in advance, and thank you all for this incredibly informative thread.

  146. #146
    Threading freely...
    Reputation: polymathic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    319
    I don't want to sound impatient, but... really no one knows the answer to this? TIA.

  147. #147
    mtbr member
    Reputation: kuolas's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    29
    Quote Originally Posted by DeeEight
    Because in order to improve the reliability of the mtb 10 speed shifting, shimano has finally admitted to themselves that SRAM had the right idea lowering the leverage ratio of the rear derailleur cable pull geometry (which makes the derailleur less sensitive to cable stretch and tension changes from shifter housing movement on a rear suspension bike). So the shifters now pull more cable than before for each shift. SRAM's 10 speed shifters and derailleurs also pull more cable than their 9 speed units. I believe the SRAM 10 speed works out as a 0.8:1 ratio now, their 8/9 speed stuff is 1:1, all shimano derailleurs except the new 10speed mtb (and the 7/8 speed DuraAce) are 2:1 and the shimano 10s MTB is I believe its been measured out as something like 1.25:1.
    Maybe I'm incorrect... but... If you use a DynaSys Shifter with a normal 9s Shimano Shadows, the dérailleur will move two cogs per shift. And that if you use a 9s shifter wit a DynaSys dérailleur it will need two shifts per derailleur move... so Shimano changed the ratio from 2:1 to 4:1.

    SRAM says that 1:1 is better with mud and dirt... but in reality more cable pull (like Shimano 2:1) make the system more reliable.

  148. #148
    mtbr member
    Reputation: boomn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    10,035
    Quote Originally Posted by kuolas
    Maybe I'm incorrect... but... If you use a DynaSys Shifter with a normal 9s Shimano Shadows, the dérailleur will move two cogs per shift. And that if you use a 9s shifter wit a DynaSys dérailleur it will need two shifts per derailleur move... so Shimano changed the ratio from 2:1 to 4:1.

    SRAM says that 1:1 is better with mud and dirt... but in reality more cable pull (like Shimano 2:1) make the system more reliable.
    You have it backwards. The "2:1" ratio is 2 units of derailleur movement to 1 unit of shifter movement, meaning small difference in cable tension make a bigger difference in shift indexing and it is therefore less reliable in real use.

    Shimano did about double the cable pull needed with Dynasys, but this basically changed it from 2:1 to 2:2, which is the same as 1:1 of course.

  149. #149
    mtbr member
    Reputation: gmats's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    3,198
    Quote Originally Posted by boomn
    You have it backwards. The "2:1" ratio is 2 units of derailleur movement to 1 unit of shifter movement, meaning small difference in cable tension make a bigger difference in shift indexing and it is therefore less reliable in real use.

    Shimano did about double the cable pull needed with Dynasys, but this basically changed it from 2:1 to 2:2, which is the same as 1:1 of course.

    This is quite fun. I was confused before about the 2:1 etc. because I wasn't sure what point of reference this was from. I would have said 2 units of cable for 1 gear unit movement.

    In automotive (or other things) terms, the discussion of gear-ratio is in reference of how many times the "driving" thing has to move for 1 movement of the driven device. 4.10 means the drive shaft turns 4.1 times for 1 turn of the tire. Transmission is done in terms of how many turns the engine makes (input shaft to transmission) with reference to the output shaft.

    Back-asswards....................

  150. #150
    mtbr member
    Reputation: boomn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    10,035
    Quote Originally Posted by gmats
    This is quite fun. I was confused before about the 2:1 etc. because I wasn't sure what point of reference this was from. I would have said 2 units of cable for 1 gear unit movement.

    In automotive (or other things) terms, the discussion of gear-ratio is in reference of how many times the "driving" thing has to move for 1 movement of the driven device. 4.10 means the drive shaft turns 4.1 times for 1 turn of the tire. Transmission is done in terms of how many turns the engine makes (input shaft to transmission) with reference to the output shaft.

    Back-asswards....................
    "shifter movement" the way I meant it is analogous to "units of cable". I guess that wasn't the clearest way for me to write it.

    Other sources I've read do switch the order of Shimano's ratio in order to explain it more like a gear ratio. Maybe it was just Shimano's marketing team trying to make the term sound better or something

  151. #151
    mtbr member
    Reputation: kuolas's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    29
    Yeap... I was wrong. So, we can put SRAM Triggers with a Shimano DynaSys Shadow combo?

    I never heard of Shimano publicly show their ratio... I though it's SRAM how says "2:1" to contrast it to the "1:1".

  152. #152
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    188
    Ok, anyone know if SRAM's 10spd chainrings fit on a Dyna-sys XT crankset?

  153. #153
    mtbr member
    Reputation: boomn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    10,035
    Quote Originally Posted by hrdude
    Ok, anyone know if SRAM's 10spd chainrings fit on a Dyna-sys XT crankset?
    SRAM's double cranksets use a different bolt circle diameter than normal 104BCD cranks like the XT so they aren't compatible

  154. #154
    Threading freely...
    Reputation: polymathic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    319
    Quote Originally Posted by kuolas
    Yeap... I was wrong. So, we can put SRAM Triggers with a Shimano DynaSys Shadow combo?

    I never heard of Shimano publicly show their ratio... I though it's SRAM how says "2:1" to contrast it to the "1:1".
    That's what I'm trying to figure out for sure--has anyone tried? But only SRAM 9 speed triggers might work, as the 10 speed SRAM stuff is no longer 1:1 ratio.

    I also wonder if a 9 speed chain would work in a 10 speed rear derailleur with a 9 speed cassette.

    Thank you all for the input.

  155. #155
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    46

    SLX Dyna sys everything with exception of SRAM X9 10 speed rear derailleur/shifter

    Hello All,

    I think this is a question that hasn't been addressed yet, but I may be wrong:

    I am about to pull the trigger on a bike that comes with a full Shimano Dyna Sys SLX 3X10 drivetrain (cranks with 24t/32t/42t chainrings, chain, shifters, front & rear derailleur, cassette, etc). It's a 2011 Giant Reign 1. However, I like the feel of SRAM's 10 speed X9 shifter/rear derailleur combo and would like to incorporate this into my bike in the near future for as little cost as possible.

    Q: Can I keep all of my shimano SLX dyna sys components (FD, chain, cassette, cranks, chainrings) and only replace the rear derailleur and rear shifter with SRAM X9 10 speed components? So everything would be dyna sys with the exception of the rear derailleur and rear shifter pod.

    I am unsure of how the dyna sys SLX cranks/front derailleur combo will affect the SRAM 10 speed shifting in the rear. Any input or concerns would be greatly appreciated.

    It has already been stated that the dyna sys cassette is interchangeable with 10 speed SRAM rear derailleurs (I know I will need to keep the dyna sys chain), but will a SRAM 10 speed rear derailleur be compatible and function properly with dyna sys SLX up front ???

    Thanks in advance
    Last edited by bikeNY22; 03-16-2011 at 09:47 PM.

  156. #156
    mtbr member
    Reputation: kuolas's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    29
    Quote Originally Posted by DeeEight
    I believe the SRAM 10 speed works out as a 0.8:1 ratio now, their 8/9 speed stuff is 1:1
    Currently I'm using X5 Triggers (SRAM 9s) with an X7 rear dérailleur (SRAM 10s)... so... It's still the same 1:1 ratio?

  157. #157
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Teigansdad's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    148
    Finally finished my set up...works Great!
    shimano SLX 9 speed cranks: double ring set up with Blackspire super pro 38T and 26T
    dynasys XT shifters F and R
    XT 9 sp FD
    XT 10 sp RD
    XTR 10 sp dynasys chain with wipperman connect link
    XT 11 - 36 T 10 sp rear cassette
    Ridden twice...shifts flawlessly. More to come after a race this weekend!

  158. #158
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    185
    Yes, your can use SRAM RD and rear shifter with Shimano cranks, chainrings FD etc. Your front gear does not care what your rear gear is doing. I'm using SRAM RD and rear 10 speed shifter, Shimano 10 speed cassette, Shimano 10 speed chain and Blackspire 9 speed rings. Works fine.





    Quote Originally Posted by bikeNY22
    Hello All,

    I think this is a question that hasn't been addressed yet, but I may be wrong:

    I am about to pull the trigger on a bike that comes with a full Shimano Dyna Sys SLX 3X10 drivetrain (cranks with 24t/32t/42t chainrings, chain, shifters, front & rear derailleur, cassette, etc). It's a 2011 Giant Reign 1. However, I like the feel of SRAM's 10 speed X9 shifter/rear derailleur combo and would like to incorporate this into my bike in the near future for as little cost as possible.

    Q: Can I keep all of my shimano SLX dyna sys components (FD, chain, cassette, cranks, chainrings) and only replace the rear derailleur and rear shifter with SRAM X9 10 speed components? So everything would be dyna sys with the exception of the rear derailleur and rear shifter pod.


    I am unsure of how the dyna sys SLX cranks/front derailleur combo will affect the SRAM 10 speed shifting in the rear. Any input or concerns would be greatly appreciated.

    It has already been stated that the dyna sys cassette is interchangeable with 10 speed SRAM rear derailleurs (I know I will need to keep the dyna sys chain), but will a SRAM 10 speed rear derailleur be compatible and function properly with dyna sys SLX up front ???

    Thanks in advance

  159. #159
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Teigansdad's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    148

    Good job! back from the lab

    Quote Originally Posted by Teigansdad
    Finally finished my set up...works Great!
    shimano SLX 9 speed cranks: double ring set up with Blackspire super pro 38T and 26T
    dynasys XT shifters F and R
    XT 9 sp FD
    XT 10 sp RD
    XTR 10 sp dynasys chain with wipperman connect link
    XT 11 - 36 T 10 sp rear cassette
    Ridden twice...shifts flawlessly. More to come after a race this weekend!
    So I rode the above set up twice last week then took it out for it's intended purpose...raced on it yesterday. LOVED IT. No miss shifts,no skips, no hesitations on front shifts. Even cross chained more than I had intended in 38X36 combo and it just asked for more! So if any of you are hesitating on making a change hope the above helps.

  160. #160
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    107
    Quote Originally Posted by ljsmith
    From what I understand the front 10 speed shifter is identical to the 9 speed shifter. The difference is in the geometry of the front derailleur. The 10 speed front derailleur moves slightly less per shift due to the 10 speed crankset using thinner rings with closer spacing. You can interchange the front derailleurs, but they will be very difficult to adjust. A 9 speed front derailleur on a 10 speed crankset will slightly overshift .....
    The solution to this is to run a double crank. Use the stops to cheat things.
    As long as it is set up to shift to the right point for the bigger ring, then setting the inner stop to stop the thing correctly for the other ring means no prob at all. Both positions the DL will be in 'exactly' the right place.

    And 10sp is all about double cranks anyway for MTB. Double + bash is the way to go for real trail riding.
    Riding MTB on the road. Sure, you want triple. But then you don't need 10sp anyway. + 9sp with thicker rings wears slower by definition. So save cash twice with no downside. And if you're wondering about intercompatibility of 9 and 10sp, then cash and durability/longevity are both relevant. So there is the solution. Double + bash. Or stay 9sp.
    Even 9sp double + bash loses v little to 10sp. If you are racing, sure.
    But this thread is not for racers. Its for those of us who care about bang for our buck. And IMO that is even more dominated than ever by 9sp now the prices are down.

    Maybe I could shave 1min of my favourite loop with 10sp. And be back in the car moments sooner. YAY, traffic!
    I can definitely save some cash and plenty of minutes at home (which can be invested in going out and riding) by sticking w 9sp.

    Personal opinion of course. I'll go 10 at some point. But what's the rush. Getting paid in time and cash to stay w 9 is just fine for a season or so. 9sp double+bash is great. 24-36 11-32 can handle almost anything rideable with moderately strong legs and reasonable lungs and has almost the same ratios.
    Use Sheldon Brown's (sheldonbrown.com) ratio calculator to check it out. Great tool for planning your drive.
    Arguably, 10sp gives you one more 'useful' gear in the middle of the range.
    But in reality, how often are you in the middle of the range? Going up you are in the low end. The rest in the high end. Middle is just for people who don't climb steep stuff and make a point of wearing all cogs evenly! Now that's REAL thrift!
    Give me 1000more gears in the middle and I'll still use the highest 3 and lowest 3 more than the rest combined as the actual ratios for these 6 don't change much. You pick parts that make these important ratios as high as you can handle on what you ride - however many other gears there are.

    So your '27sp' bike is really about a 6-8sp.
    And your '30sp' is ALSO about a 6-8sp!!!
    So is an '18sp'.
    Or an 'XX'.

    http://www.sheldonbrown.com/gears/

    Here is a challenge. Go and ride a 7 or 8 speed bike. You might be upset at the old suspension or worn out tires, maybe the weight. But (assuming it's adjusted ok) the gearing will not bother you one bit. Because the *useful* ratios are all there, and the same as your 9. And will be the same as your 10.
    10sp shaves weight and can reduce front shifting. Competitive advantage. If you're racing.
    If you're not racing, one could argue that it is a competitive disadvantage in the game of life. Takes time and cash for little meaningful change in performance. New drive is expensive. If you have a budget (as we all do here), one can put that towards better/lighter tires/wheels/suspension that all affect your ride - and also affect times.

    Don't get me wrong, 10sp is a welcome evo. But dropping anything/everything to pander to the 'must have' instinct is IMO getting carried away.
    Go SRAM for 10sp IMO.
    Last edited by Ecogeek; 04-03-2011 at 05:38 PM.

  161. #161
    mtbr member
    Reputation: thecanoe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    1,360
    I happen to have a new 24/32/bash XTR 9 sp chainring set.
    Will they work on my 10sp XT Tallboy
    Santa Cruz Tallboy
    Moonlander

  162. #162
    Old-newbie
    Reputation: g3rG's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    379
    Yes.

    Since last November I have been using a Shimano 10-sp front shifter with a Sram 9-sp RD, a Shimano 10-sp cassette, and a Sram 10-sp chain. It works because the full pull of the new Shimano 10-sp stuff is exactly the same as the full pull of the old Sram 9-sp stuff. The Shimano incompatibility engineers must have screwed up.

    Shifting has been perfect, even when I screw up and shift under load. I do a lot of steep climbing, so the system has had some abuse. Since the install I haven't even had to adjust it.

    gerG

    Quote Originally Posted by Bikebr
    "2. Nine speed rear derailleurs will not work with 10 speed mountain rear shifters. They will however work with road “flat bar” 10 speed rear shifters. Dyna speed shifters pull twice as much cable per shift as 9 speed shifters, so if you use a 9 speed derailleur it shifts two gears for every one push."

    "This confirms what I read only once before. The Dyna-sys cable pull to rear derailleur rate is 1:1, like SRAM (9 Speed) now. I haven't heard if SRAM changed from 1:1 to something else for XX."

    "I believe the SRAM 10 speed works out as a 0.8:1 ratio now, their 8/9 speed stuff is 1:1, all shimano derailleurs except the new 10speed mtb (and the 7/8 speed DuraAce) are 2:1 and the shimano 10s MTB is I believe its been measured out as something like 1.25:1."


    Folks, sorry if i lost something in translation (english is not my native language).. Is it possible to use a 9 sp SRAM rear der in a full 10 sp DynaSys system(i.e. changing a XT RD-M773 for a X9)?
    Thanks.
    ...uphill uphill uphill DOWNHILL! uphill uphill uphill uphill DOWNHILL! uphill ...

  163. #163
    mtbr member
    Reputation: thecanoe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    1,360
    So 9sp XTR chainrings will fit a 2011 XT crank.
    That's great news.
    Santa Cruz Tallboy
    Moonlander

  164. #164
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    2

    Chain question

    Great thread! I'm pulling the trigger on a budget conversion, 9sp front with 10sp rear. I have an ultegra 6701 chain and need to know of it will work before I order parts. The configuration will be 970 (XTR 9 sp) crank and fr derailleur, 980 shifters, 771 cassette and 773 rear derailleur and chain TBD. It seems the mountain 10sp chains are “optimized” but that’s the same thing Shimano says about their road chains which I have no problems mixing with SRAM road cranks and cassettes. Thanks!

  165. #165
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    442
    i've read through this forum, but it doesnt seem like my question has been asked/answered. if it has, pardon my lack of comprehension.
    i have 9spd every thing...rear cassette, chain, front and rear derailer..id like to get a new crankset...
    if i get the dyna sys 10spd cranks will they work well with my old components?
    the point of this is so i can go 10spd down the road when its necessary.
    im planning on running it as a 2x9 for now, 2x10 down the road.

  166. #166
    KPH
    KPH is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    99
    Quote Originally Posted by murrdogg11
    if i get the dyna sys 10spd cranks will they work well with my old components?
    the point of this is so i can go 10spd down the road when its necessary.
    im planning on running it as a 2x9 for now, 2x10 down the road.
    I recently fitted an XTR crankset (3 chainrings, for 10 spd system), replacing an old set of XT (3 chainrings, for 9spd system).

    I had to change the front mech to XTR 10spd and also the chain to a 10spd chain.

    My current set up that works very well is:

    Front shifter - 9-spd (sic) XTR 2008
    Front Mech - 10 spd (sic) XTR 2011 - 3 chainring
    Cranks/chainring - 10spd 3 chainring XTR 2011
    Rear Shifter - 9 spd XTR 2008
    Rear mech - 9 spd XTR 2008
    Chain - 10 spd XTR 2011

    Not buying in to all the marketing BS, but I did notice a significant different (for the the better) over the old XT in gear changes to a larger chain ring.

  167. #167
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    70
    Hi murrdogg11, I bought a 10 speed xt crankset and put my old 9 speed rings back on to it.

    Works great. I plan on upgrading to 10 speed eventually.

  168. #168
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    442
    Quote Originally Posted by KPH
    I recently fitted an XTR crankset (3 chainrings, for 10 spd system), replacing an old set of XT (3 chainrings, for 9spd system).

    I had to change the front mech to XTR 10spd and also the chain to a 10spd chain.

    My current set up that works very well is:

    Front shifter - 9-spd (sic) XTR 2008
    Front Mech - 10 spd (sic) XTR 2011 - 3 chainring
    Cranks/chainring - 10spd 3 chainring XTR 2011
    Rear Shifter - 9 spd XTR 2008
    Rear mech - 9 spd XTR 2008
    Chain - 10 spd XTR 2011

    Not buying in to all the marketing BS, but I did notice a significant different (for the the better) over the old XT in gear changes to a larger chain ring.
    ok thanks for that....so basically i need a new chain and front derailer?

  169. #169
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    442
    Quote Originally Posted by with_the_band
    Hi murrdogg11, I bought a 10 speed xt crankset and put my old 9 speed rings back on to it.

    Works great. I plan on upgrading to 10 speed eventually.
    thanks for the advice, however my current rings have no life left in them.

  170. #170
    KPH
    KPH is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    99
    Quote Originally Posted by murrdogg11
    ok thanks for that....so basically i need a new chain and front derailer?
    Yep, that's what I'd recommend

    FYI, I paid US$43 for the XTR 10 spd chain and US$ 73 for the [conventional] front derailer

  171. #171
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    97
    Quote Originally Posted by KPH
    Yep, that's what I'd recommend

    FYI, I paid US$43 for the XTR 10 spd chain and US$ 73 for the [conventional] front derailer
    Interesting, I may do the same. Did you try with the 9s FD and changed because it wasn't working well or did you go straight to the 10s FD?

    Also, is it possible to put a 22t XTR m970 granny on the m980 trail triple instead of the OEM 24t?

  172. #172
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    442
    Anyone have 10spd chain reccomendations? On some of the reviews I've read people are complaining about breaking shimano 10spd chains.

  173. #173
    bi-winning
    Reputation: rkj__'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    11,108
    This thread has been helpful to me. I learned a few things. It would be nice if manufacturers made it a little easier to figure out this kind of information.
    When under pressure, your level of performance will sink to your level of preparation.

  174. #174
    Programmer
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    49
    So I can purchase the SL-M770-10R rear shifter (non flat bar version) and it will be compatible with my 10 Speed Ultegra der?

  175. #175
    mtbr member
    Reputation: kuolas's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    29
    Quote Originally Posted by work-ed
    So I can purchase the SL-M770-10R rear shifter (non flat bar version) and it will be compatible with my 10 Speed Ultegra der?
    In theory... no. But, you could use Mega9 and your Ultegra, and it should work.

    See this...
    http://waltworks.blogspot.com/2011/0...-artistic.html
    G11KARX - GT Karakoram X Kai
    2-Cylinder - 1.2 HP (950W) @ 110 RPM

  176. #176
    Programmer
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    49
    Why would a 9sp rear shifter be my answer to a 10sp rear der and 10sp cassette? What about these?

    http://www.jensonusa.com/store/produ...r+Shifter.aspx

  177. #177
    mtbr member
    Reputation: kuolas's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    29
    Sorry... 9s only.

    You could use Tiagra 10s Flat Bar Shifters (new Tiagra is 10s) or a 10s Dyna-Sys Shadow rear mech. and shifters (why is no Shadow on the road groups?)

    http://www.bikeradar.com/beginners/n...st-look-29452/
    Last edited by kuolas; 04-19-2011 at 05:05 AM.
    G11KARX - GT Karakoram X Kai
    2-Cylinder - 1.2 HP (950W) @ 110 RPM

  178. #178
    meow, meow.
    Reputation: J. Random Psycho's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    2,495
    Quote Originally Posted by kuolas
    why is no Shadow on the road groups?
    Ha-ha, this could be marketed as aerodynamic improvement!
    Maybe the roadies are too attached to the timeless aesthetics of the cable loop?
    26" rigid SS 4130 BB7 nylon-flats ESI latex-tubes non-lubricated-8spd

  179. #179
    Coloradian
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    188
    Quote Originally Posted by work-ed
    So I can purchase the SL-M770-10R rear shifter (non flat bar version) and it will be compatible with my 10 Speed Ultegra der?
    Dyna-Sys is the key. Finally, a buzz word that is actually useful!

    Ten speed Dyna-Sys rear derailers and ten speed Dyna-Sys rear shifters are only compatible with one another. Neither will work with any other type of Shimano component.
    29ers are just a fad, like disc brakes, suspension, indexed shifting and mountain bikes.

  180. #180
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    53
    I had been running a dyna sys 10 spd chain with my mixed 10 spd set up (SRAM shifters and derailuers Shimano dynasys chain, crank and cassette) and it shifted like crap. It was to a point where I thought I had installed the chain backwards. Also very loud. Then I went to a bigger chainring combo and needed more chain. I had a KMC XSL10 spd chain lying around and threw it on. Shifted like a dream immediately. Night and day. Not sure if the issue was with the SRAM derailuer mixed with Shimano chain or Dynasys is no good. Seemed to me that the cassette/chain match would be more important but maybe the pulleys on the SRAM with the shimano chain was the problem. Regardless, KMC chains work well with both sram and shimano 10spd parts

  181. #181
    Village Dirtbag
    Reputation: @dam's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    2,283
    Quote Originally Posted by @dam
    So, I understand that chainrings are the same thickness, but the ramps are much more elaborate on Dyna Sys- especially on the granny side of the middle ring. Is this necessary to pick up the thinner chain? Has anyone tried running 10-spd chains on the 9-spd rings, particularly XT rings? I'm especially interested in the little ring, since a 24T granny is too big for me. A 22/36 sounds like a great granny for a 29er, and I really want to try it.

    For the record, I replaced the 24T Dyna-Sys XT granny with a 22T 9-spd XT granny, and it works absolutely perfectly. They even looked the same, other than having two fewer teeth. I didn't even have to adjust anything- Plug 'n Play. Well, in all fairness, the granny to middle shift was slightly slow at first, but then I noticed I had a bunch of slack in the cable. Tightened that up and no-problem. Now the gearing on my 29er is only 5% higher than on my old 26er.

    The 24T is a lot smoother when you're hauling butt, but for all-day self-supported high-vertical epics, the 22T will be great!

  182. #182
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    53
    I was trying to go to a 2 ring setup from my 3 ring dyna sys and bought a 26t XTR granny ring. Turns out the rings (and cranksets) are specific to 2x10 and 3x10. The new granny is 2x10 specific and is off-set towards the centerline of the bike so it will not work with a starndard middle or SRAM 36t 10spd outer ring on a 3x10 crankset. When I put on the new granny with a 36t SRAM ring the throw was too long for the front derailuer so the was rubbing going on all over the place and I bet if you tried to ride it you would get the chain stuck between the rings. As if there weren't enough chainring standards already. What a pain in the ass.

  183. #183
    Rider and Wrench
    Reputation: knottshore's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    1,478
    Quote Originally Posted by eastongeneral
    I was trying to go to a 2 ring setup from my 3 ring dyna sys and bought a 26t XTR granny ring. Turns out the rings (and cranksets) are specific to 2x10 and 3x10. The new granny is 2x10 specific and is off-set towards the centerline of the bike so it will not work with a starndard middle or SRAM 36t 10spd outer ring on a 3x10 crankset. When I put on the new granny with a 36t SRAM ring the throw was too long for the front derailuer so the was rubbing going on all over the place and I bet if you tried to ride it you would get the chain stuck between the rings. As if there weren't enough chainring standards already. What a pain in the ass.
    Just an FYI but you can getother 64mm bcd shimano 9 speed chain rings (XT)-

    960 and 970 cranksets have an additonal ~2.5mm of offset toward the BB and require the use of ~2-2.5mm spacers to push the middle ring toward the BB when you use any other granny ring- This is apperant when trying to use the granny (64mm bcd) ring on other cranks, the granny ring itself has a different offset than other 64mm chain rings, meaning you will need to add the same ~2-2.5mm spacers when using it on any crank other than xtr....
    It is possible your 26t XTR ring from the 980 Trail cranks has the same design and you could solve this by installing the spacers (I have the triple 980's which are the same bcd/arm as the trail cranks but have never confirmed this).

    I used a 9 speed XTR 970 crank/der with an XT 26T granny and an LX 36T Middle ring with a bash and had no issues with shifting- and it was an e-type front derailleur so no way to adjust the position. I just needed to add the spacers to the middle ring...

    Here is a thread that goes into more deatail if your interested:

    http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=672753
    Last edited by knottshore; 04-21-2011 at 12:22 PM.
    I Just wish I could ride more!


  184. #184
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    53
    Quote Originally Posted by knottshore
    Just an FYI but you can getother 64mm bcd shimano 9 speed chain rings (XT)-

    960 and 970 cranksets have an additonal ~2.5mm of offset toward the BB and require the use of ~2-2.5mm spacers to push the middle ring toward the BB when you use any other granny ring- This is apperant when trying to use the granny (64mm bcd) ring on other cranks, the granny ring itself has a different offset than other 64mm chain rings, meaning you will need to add the same ~2-2.5mm spacers when using it on any crank other than xtr....
    It is possible your 26t XTR ring from the 980 Trail cranks has the same design and you could solve this by installing the spacers (I have the triple 980's which are the same bcd/arm as the trail cranks but have never confirmed this).

    I used a 9 speed XTR 970 crank/der with an XT 26T granny and an LX 36T Middle ring with a bash and had no issues with shifting- and it was an e-type front derailleur so no way to adjust the position. I just needed to add the spacers to the middle ring...

    Here is a thread that goes into more deatail if your interested:

    http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=672753
    If I use spacers to move the outer ring in, won't this create a really bad chain line? I have an XT crankset 3x10. XTR 64 mm bcd granny ring and SRAM XO 36t outer ring

  185. #185
    Rider and Wrench
    Reputation: knottshore's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    1,478
    Quote Originally Posted by eastongeneral
    If I use spacers to move the outer ring in, won't this create a really bad chain line? I have an XT crankset 3x10. XTR 64 mm bcd granny ring and SRAM XO 36t outer ring
    You could definitely create a chain line issue...

    If you have XT cranks (I have not seen specs but not aware anything but the rings changed from mega 9 to Dyna 10 on XT cranks) and wanted to put an xtr granny ring on them you would actually need to put the spacers between the granny and the spider on the crank. Ironically if you used the XTR granny on a non xtr crank and pushed the "middle" ring out with spacers you may end up with a chain line close to a current 2X?

    Since the XO 36t ring is designed as an outer ring for a 2X (and the chainline on the cranks is definitely different) I am not too sure what the offset is nor the chain line of the XO 2X rings is and what affect it will have when installed on a 3X Crankset- but guessing it might cause additional compatibility problems (even though it is a 104bcd). Try pulling a measurement from the center of your seat tube with the original Shimano "middle" ring and then with the 36t Sram and see if they are the same or not- if they are the spacers on the granny should solve your issue. If not you may need to space the 36T (and possibly the xtr Granny as well) to get the chain line/spacing right.

    Hope this helps-
    I Just wish I could ride more!


  186. #186
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    144

    Still no solution to 9sp rear der with 10 speed shifters/cassette?

    Just received a brand new Mojo HD and was flabbergasted to find out Shimano has discontinued Rapid Rise.

    I know there are plenty of people who disagree, but I think RR deraillers are the best thing ever.

    Is there any way at all to use a 9sp RR der with my new 10sp XT setup?

    I was researching this a few months ago and remember someone positioned the cable differently on the der to change the pull ratio, thereby making use of the 9sp der possible with 10sp shifters but I cannot find the link.

    Someone please help! I don't want to have to go back to the old style derailler!!!

  187. #187
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    900
    FYI, I'm one of those people who detests Rapid Rise! It sucks, it's dead. Good.

    If you are determined to inflict further pain, suffering and frustration on yourself and the unfortunate person(s) who maintains your bike, there might be a way.

    According to various people here at MTBR, the new Shimano DynaSys derailleurs use the same cable travel as last year's 9 speed SRAM. So, what you need to do to be able to use RR is to convert this cable travel, using this: ShiftMate Straight model #6S, see: http://jtekengineering.com/shiftmate_straight.htm

    You will have to figure out where to locate it, and your RR mech may not like 36T rear cogs, YMMV; caveat emptor and all that...

    And no, I haven't tried it myself - this is all theoretical.

  188. #188
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    144
    Thanks Satanas! I am glad we can agree to disagree. Been riding RR ders for about 5-6 years. I think they are great. But I never ride in the rain or mud so that may be a consideration. I maintain my own bikes (thanks to getting ripped off constantly by various LBS in youth) and have had nary a problem.

    I may risk the $40 to try this out. Though I could have sworn I saw someone just flip the cable clamp on the der or something like that to adjust the amount of pull...

    Thanks again!

    Quote Originally Posted by satanas
    FYI, I'm one of those people who detests Rapid Rise! It sucks, it's dead. Good.

    If you are determined to inflict further pain, suffering and frustration on yourself and the unfortunate person(s) who maintains your bike, there might be a way.

    According to various people here at MTBR, the new Shimano DynaSys derailleurs use the same cable travel as last year's 9 speed SRAM. So, what you need to do to be able to use RR is to convert this cable travel, using this: ShiftMate Straight model #6S, see: http://jtekengineering.com/shiftmate_straight.htm

    You will have to figure out where to locate it, and your RR mech may not like 36T rear cogs, YMMV; caveat emptor and all that...

    And no, I haven't tried it myself - this is all theoretical.

  189. #189
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    900
    There are some other information resources for getting mixed systems to work too.

    Try this first: http://www.ctc.org.uk/DesktopDefault.aspx?TabID=3946

    Chris Juden also links to other sources, and a summary of the Hubbub technique you alluded to above. FWIW, Shimano changed the cable travel for Dura-Ace in 1997, and the then-new derailleurs had a second cable groove so that they would work with the older shifters, so it's not a new idea.

    Some of the other links I would have recommended appear to have died now, but I'm sure the one above and a bit of searching should get you started......

  190. #190
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    144
    [QUOTE=satanas]There are some other information resources for getting mixed systems to work too.

    Try this first: http://www.ctc.org.uk/DesktopDefault.aspx?TabID=3946

    /QUOTE]

    Satanas.. thanks so much! That was exactly the type of info I was looking for. Are you in the Bay Area? I owe you a beer!

    Can't wait to get my Mojo HD built up and start the tinkering required to get my new XTR RR derailler (I've hoarded a couple) to work.

  191. #191
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    900
    You're welcome! I hope it all works out for you. I've also been hoarding stuff, but in my case it's been old low-Q Ritchey cranks...

    And yes, I'm sort of near a bay, but it's called Sydney Harbour.

    I was looking at the new Mojo SLR and thinking it all looked good until I saw the new BB; shoulda been BB30 IMHO. <sigh>

  192. #192
    meow, meow.
    Reputation: J. Random Psycho's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    2,495
    For Jtek Shiftmate mounting, I put mine right next the the trigger shifter (Saint M810 in my case). Had to file down the nice golden barrel a little, but the result is well worth it. I think it's the best place to mount a Shiftmate.
    26" rigid SS 4130 BB7 nylon-flats ESI latex-tubes non-lubricated-8spd

  193. #193
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    32

    Rear Der: 9V Sram = 10V Dynasys

    Quote Originally Posted by g3rG
    Yes.

    Since last November I have been using a Shimano 10-sp front shifter with a Sram 9-sp RD, a Shimano 10-sp cassette, and a Sram 10-sp chain. It works because the full pull of the new Shimano 10-sp stuff is exactly the same as the full pull of the old Sram 9-sp stuff. The Shimano incompatibility engineers must have screwed up.

    Shifting has been perfect, even when I screw up and shift under load. I do a lot of steep climbing, so the system has had some abuse. Since the install I haven't even had to adjust it.

    gerG
    Yes g3rg. Yesterday I made some tests (in bike stand only) an this are the results:
    xtr 980 10V Shifter + X9 '09 9V rd + 10V cs81-10 = OK
    xtr 980 10V Shifter + SLX 9V rd + 10V cs81-10 = NOK (as expected)
    X9 '09 9V Shifter + XT 773 10V rd + 9V cs770-9 = OK
    X9 '09 9V Shifter + SLX 9V rd + 9V cs770-9 = NOK (as expected too)

    Some remarks:
    X9 rd needs a little bit longer cable lenght than shadows (dynasys or not). It's necessary to change the shifter cable to try this;
    3x10 dynasys with 11-36 cogset needs long cage rd. My X9 rd is medium and the chain was too loose in granny;
    It's necessary adjusts in h/l screws in rd and in shifter barrel to tune. This tune sounds harder for me.

  194. #194
    mtbr member
    Reputation: 123ski's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    535
    what are some other options for this?

    I have a 10-spd Dyna-Sys cassette.

    Currently running an M552 crankset. I really don't need a big ring and would prefer a bashguard and chainguide. What I'd really like to do is run a 26-38 or 26-39 with a taco bashguard and chainguide.

    is there anything I can do? I really like the Dyna-Sys and dont' want to swap out a complete drivetrain.

  195. #195
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    900
    ^ Why not just buy 2 chainrings??? The sizes you want will likely be available as spares from a number of sources, i.e., TA, Stronglight, Middleburn, FSA, etc, etc - basically everyone except Shimano and SRAM.

  196. #196
    mtbr member
    Reputation: 123ski's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    535
    and those won't interefere with having a 10spd chain or a 10spd cassette?

  197. #197
    mtbr member
    Reputation: 123ski's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    535
    ^Does anyone know?

    I have a 10-speed chain and 10-speed cassette..what happens if i use 9-speed double crankest with bashguard? or is there a way I can buy 10 speed chainrings instead? What I'd really like to do is run a 26-38 or 26-39 with a taco bashguard and chainguide.

  198. #198
    Rider and Wrench
    Reputation: knottshore's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    1,478
    Quote Originally Posted by 123ski
    ^Does anyone know?

    I have a 10-speed chain and 10-speed cassette..what happens if i use 9-speed double crankest with bashguard? or is there a way I can buy 10 speed chainrings instead? What I'd really like to do is run a 26-38 or 26-39 with a taco bashguard and chainguide.

    You should not have any issue - just match the front derailleur to the cranks... so keep your 9 speed no need to use 10 speed chain rings the internal width is still the same- also your front/left shifter still has the same ratio so you will only have to change your rear shifter/derailleur to 10 speed.

    Hope this helps- it is touched on earlier in the thread but it has gotten quite time consuming to navigate and get an answer-
    I Just wish I could ride more!


  199. #199
    mtbr member
    Reputation: 123ski's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    535
    ^Thanks Knottshore.

    1 last question. I already have a 10sped 3ring installed with a DynaSys front shifter.

    What you are saying is that I can use 9spd 2ring crankset..but I will have to swap out my front shifter/derailleur if I do so?

  200. #200
    mtbr member
    Reputation: mudge's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    1,447
    Quote Originally Posted by ljsmith
    You are correct. A 10 speed chain works great with a 9 speed crank and front derailleur. I actually like the 10 speed chain with a 9 speed front derailleur because it is easier to set it up so it never rubs due to the slightly wider cage.
    My experience exactly.

    I had the standard pre-DynaSys 9sp XT drivetrain on a Pivot 429. Left the front derailleur, front shifter, and cranks stock. Switched the rear derailleur, rear shifter, and chain to 10sp XT. The front shifts just like it always did, the rear shifts perfectly, too, and the chain rub issue for the front derailleur is less a problem than before as well.

    Took the pre-DynaSys XT 9sp rear derailleur, put it on my monstercross frame, paired w/ DuraAce 7800 10sp STI shifter, works perfectly as well. Using a compact crankset and 11-36 cassette, freakishly low gear for my monstercross ride.

    Mudge

Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast

Members who have read this thread: 18

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

THE SITE

ABOUT MTBR

VISIT US AT

© Copyright 2020 VerticalScope Inc. All rights reserved.