Best combo of Eagle and XTR combined?- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    Best combo of Eagle and XTR combined?

    I've been hearing that the XTR derailleur and shifters work on eagle cassettes, and im assuming the other way around as well. I was thinking of running an eagle cassette, with XTR shifters and derailleur, or maybe sram cassette and shifters with an XTR derailleur?
    I dont mind the eagle stuff, its worked pretty well for me so far, but for my new build since i have the option, if i can get a little improvement in shifting, especially shifting under power, i dont mind trying a mix of components.

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    Eagle GX cassette with XTR shifter and derailleur. Actually tried a few more options, you can see them on the channel. Working just fine - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4l_O1qtJ8I
    Don't know if I would call the mixed drivetrain as an improvement over the all SRAM or all Shimano drivetrain though. Working perfectly fine for my needs, that I can say. YMMV
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    Quote Originally Posted by scandy1 View Post
    I've been hearing that the XTR derailleur and shifters work on eagle cassettes, and im assuming the other way around as well. I was thinking of running an eagle cassette, with XTR shifters and derailleur, or maybe sram cassette and shifters with an XTR derailleur?
    I dont mind the eagle stuff, its worked pretty well for me so far, but for my new build since i have the option, if i can get a little improvement in shifting, especially shifting under power, i dont mind trying a mix of components.
    Not sure how you went from "mixed drivetrains work" to "a mixed drivetrain might be better!"

    I'm not sure that's ever been the case.

  4. #4
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    You're not going to get the benefits of the new Shimano "better shifting under load" unless you run their complete drivetrain, cassette, chain, RD and shifter are all part of the equation. Could probably get away with not running the shifter, but if you're going 75%+ of the way, might as well go full hog.
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold View Post
    Not sure how you went from "mixed drivetrains work" to "a mixed drivetrain might be better!"

    I'm not sure that's ever been the case.
    I run a mixed 11speed drivertrain sram xx1 cassette and chain...weighs less than Shimano shifts great, Shimano xtr derailleur and shifter...lighter than sram, stronger adjustable clutch and a preferred shifter action for me...full out the lightest 11sp drivetrain, with a shifter I prefer

    =Better

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    Not a good combo.

    My friend did the same thing and while it shifts fine when it's clean, but when it's muddy the entire thing just jams up.

  7. #7
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    Serious question: with the availability of microspline, why would anyone want to do this? XD drivers are everywhere, better engineering, cheaper, and lighter.

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    The GX Eagle 12 has it's positives but the whole 12spd cassette/derailleur design has a downside for me. I have wiped out 2 derailleurs, 2 hangers, and a few spokes in the last year because this setup is a debris magnet. I'm considering ditching it to get away from low hanging cage assy. In 30 years of riding I never had this many debris issues and to compound it, the 12spd stuff is expensive to replace. Not interested in spending $200-300 for upgraded X0 or XX1 derailleurs so I'm looking at alternatives.

    Considering 'mixed' combo of 11 speed GX cassette (so I don't need to change to a non-XD hub), a Shimano XT M8000 med cage derailleur along with 11spd Shimano XT shifter. I can change 34T chainring to 32T or 30T get me at similar ratio for climbing gear. I've heard many have done this with good results and it can be done for about $300.

    I'm in tight NE singletrack so 11 speeds will be fine and I solve the recurring debris issues.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ColinL View Post
    Serious question: with the availability of microspline, why would anyone want to do this?
    Because SRAM routinely undercooks its stuff unless you go for the top-end ... and from a prosaic reason of red-team shifters being push-push only.

    XD drivers are everywhere, better engineering, cheaper, and lighter.
    Only one of those traits is true. XD drivers are everywhere.
    Wether they are cheaper - no, SLX rear hubs are going to be cheapest still.
    Lighter - why would they?
    Better engineering -> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cEwxQSc8wg

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by uzurpator View Post
    Because SRAM routinely undercooks its stuff unless you go for the top-end ... and from a prosaic reason of red-team shifters being push-push only.



    Only one of those traits is true. XD drivers are everywhere.
    Wether they are cheaper - no, SLX rear hubs are going to be cheapest still.
    Lighter - why would they?
    Better engineering -> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cEwxQSc8wg
    I didn't watch the video and have no intention of doing so. I've read all the deep-dive articles going back to 2012 when SRAM launched XX1 and the XD hub, through today, including Microspline.

    The spline is inferior to SRAM's design. That's why SRAM got rid of it in 2012, except low-end cassettes (which still have a 11T small cog).

    AXS blows away XTR mechanical and Di2. AXS also can shift up with your index finger if you really like doing that.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by ColinL View Post
    The spline is inferior to SRAM's design.
    Because... reasons? Right?

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    Because fanboi.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ColinL View Post
    The spline is inferior to SRAM's design.
    Good luck defending that claim. SRAM charged exactly what they were worth for those XD licenses.

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    Quote Originally Posted by uzurpator View Post
    Because... reasons? Right?
    Because moving the torque closer to the center of the hub, because eliminating loose gears, because able to run 10t, because lighter, because hands down better. Shimano increased/redesigned their splines, but it’s disappointing they are still making “loose gear” cassettes. The XD driver really designed out the splined driver pitfalls.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Because moving the torque closer to the center of the hub, because eliminating loose gears, because able to run 10t, because lighter, because hands down better. Shimano increased/redesigned their splines, but it’s disappointing they are still making “loose gear” cassettes. The XD driver really designed out the splined driver pitfalls.
    ^ Yup.

    Seriously, how can anyone who has used splined cassettes all these years, and then used a cassette that doesn't have splines fail to understand the improvement? SRAM didn't change the things they did the past 7+ years for the hell of it. They were actual design improvements on bicycle drivetrain that had - let's face it - been largely unchanged ever since indexed shifting arrived a really long time ago.

    This is ancient history now, but Shimano initially did nothing. Not a thing. Then realized 1x was kind of a big deal, and wanted everyone to keep using their shimano splined hubs. Which is fine. But then microspline? It's just a me-too, a second best solution.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ColinL View Post
    It's just a me-too, a second best solution.
    *cough*capreo*cough*

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Because moving the torque closer to the center of the hub, because eliminating loose gears, because able to run 10t, because lighter, because hands down better. Shimano increased/redesigned their splines, but it’s disappointing they are still making “loose gear” cassettes. The XD driver really designed out the splined driver pitfalls.
    Quote Originally Posted by ColinL View Post
    ^ Yup.

    Seriously, how can anyone who has used splined cassettes all these years, and then used a cassette that doesn't have splines fail to understand the improvement? SRAM didn't change the things they did the past 7+ years for the hell of it. They were actual design improvements on bicycle drivetrain that had - let's face it - been largely unchanged ever since indexed shifting arrived a really long time ago.

    This is ancient history now, but Shimano initially did nothing. Not a thing. Then realized 1x was kind of a big deal, and wanted everyone to keep using their shimano splined hubs. Which is fine. But then microspline? It's just a me-too, a second best solution.
    Just because you both want it to be true doesn't make it so, you have presented zero factual non-imaginary benefits to XD over Microspline as a standard. How does XD change the torque loads the hub sees? A cassette and freehub body become one big chunk to the hub and bearings once they are correctly assembled together. All XD does is make installing a cassette more finicky and remove options. You could easily make a monoblock style cassette work well on the Microspline hub, probably better than on an XD, yet if you wanted to also be able to use a cogs and carriers style cassette on an XD driver it would be very difficult. Explain how a standard that is so limiting is better? Explain how external threads way down inside the assembly are better?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Velodonata View Post
    Just because you both want it to be true doesn't make it so, you have presented zero factual non-imaginary benefits to XD over Microspline as a standard. How does XD change the torque loads the hub sees? A cassette and freehub body become one big chunk to the hub and bearings once they are correctly assembled together. All XD does is make installing a cassette more finicky and remove options. You could easily make a monoblock style cassette work well on the Microspline hub, probably better than on an XD, yet if you wanted to also be able to use a cogs and carriers style cassette on an XD driver it would be very difficult. Explain how a standard that is so limiting is better? Explain how external threads way down inside the assembly are better?
    Installing an X-dome cassette is more finicky? In what world? All I have to do is literally put it on and tighten it. One piece. I do this quite often because I have two wheelsets for my XC race bike. Sure beats trying to knock off shimano gears with a hammer.
    Best combo of Eagle and XTR combined?-0134710fdeaf994e7134b9edfa87c6bdfc9eb2672d.jpg
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Installing an X-dome cassette is more finicky? In what world? All I have to do is literally put it on and tighten it. One piece. I do this quite often because I have two wheelsets for my XC race bike. Sure beats trying to knock off shimano gears with a hammer.
    That's all you've got? That is not even a Microspline freehub. And when Shimano designed their original cassette freehub decades ago, they never intended it to be made of aluminum. That said, I have never needed a hammer to remove a cog from an aluminum freehub but I'll keep your technique in mind if I ever do have that much trouble with one.

    I currently run XD on one bike, I haven't had any particular problems with it, but it's not uncommon for it to give some less experienced mechanics grief. The fragile locking device splines, buried threads and inconsistent installation torque are potential hangups. Microspline is obviously simpler and more versatile and I am going with it on my new build. Not that I expect SRAM to abandon XD, but Microspline is objectively a better standard even if it is a PITA right now being of limited availability. SRAM's own cassettes would work better if modified to mount on it, and aftermarket XD cassettes would be less of a freakshow if they were redesigned to mount on Microspline. The 10 tooth cog is the only reason XD ever existed, and now that there is a better option XD is dead to me.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velodonata View Post
    Just because you both want it to be true doesn't make it so, you have presented zero factual non-imaginary benefits to XD over Microspline as a standard. How does XD change the torque loads the hub sees? A cassette and freehub body become one big chunk to the hub and bearings once they are correctly assembled together. All XD does is make installing a cassette more finicky and remove options. You could easily make a monoblock style cassette work well on the Microspline hub, probably better than on an XD, yet if you wanted to also be able to use a cogs and carriers style cassette on an XD driver it would be very difficult. Explain how a standard that is so limiting is better? Explain how external threads way down inside the assembly are better?
    Not that you'll read it, but welcome to 2012:
    https://www.bikeradar.com/features/s...t-and-details/

    I usually refer to that article to explain to people why 9 tooth cogs are a bad idea but people still like their e13 and similar cassettes.

    As to xd cassettes being hard to install... Lol. They thread onto the hub and tighten with the same socket as older Shimano (and everyone) splined cassettes use.

    As to the deficiencies in microspline, that was hashed out over and over when xtr was announced, which by the way, was a very long time before anyone could buy it, and still lacks broad support today. Both unlike xx1 axs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Velodonata View Post
    That said, I have never needed a hammer to remove a cog from an aluminum freehub
    You get a hammer and a punch and knock it backwards a bit, which "frees" it, then it can be taken off, but one-by-one usually. As I said before, a major disappointment is that shimano is still making loose-gear cassettes. If microspline no longer gouges, great, but the lever arm with loose gears towards the outside is not as strong as moving it inboard with the fatter splines SRAM uses, which saves weight at the same time. Simply a better design. Microspline is at best, "me too!", great that shimano is finally doing something that is fairly dedicated 1x, but late to the party.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ColinL View Post
    Not that you'll read it, but welcome to 2012: ...

    I usually refer to that article to explain to people why 9 tooth cogs are a bad idea but people still like their e13 and similar cassettes.

    As to xd cassettes being hard to install... Lol. They thread onto the hub and tighten with the same socket as older Shimano (and everyone) splined cassettes use.

    As to the deficiencies in microspline, that was hashed out over and over when xtr was announced, which by the way, was a very long time before anyone could buy it, and still lacks broad support today. Both unlike xx1 axs.
    I'm sure I read that, 7 years or so ago, and I don't disagree about 9t cogs, but I'm not sure what any of it has to do with this conversation?

    I don't find XD hard to install, but tell that to the guys that didn't understand how fragile the locksleeve splines can be if you don't get them in deep enough, and how odd the torque can feel if you don't know how these things go together. It will surely take some of the pain away from maybe screwing up their $450 cassette. Full splines and a simple lockring eliminates all of the oddness of needing that lock sleeve. Not a huge deal, but a better, simpler, more versatile system.

    Other than the obvious and acknowledged turd in the punchbowl of still limited availability, did you have any actual technical deficiencies in Microspline to discuss? Because we have been going round and round and I still haven't heard any.

  23. #23
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    I'm leaving....this is the whiniest Shimano SRAM fanboy fight I've seen (and I've seen hundreds)...

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  24. #24
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    [QUOTE=Jayem;14151371Microspline is at best, "me too!"[/QUOTE]

    *cough*capreo*cough*

    fwiw, I removed my m9100 cassette from the microspline freehub body recently. nary a scratch to the freehub body.

    not sure how microspline is inferior to xD. I have both.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold View Post
    *cough*capreo*cough*

    fwiw, I removed my m9100 cassette from the microspline freehub body recently. nary a scratch to the freehub body.

    not sure how microspline is inferior to xD. I have both.
    So it's finally doing what SRAM has been doing for years? Is that not the definition of "me too"? *cough* *ahem*....Still loose gears though...
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  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    So it's finally doing what SRAM has been doing for years? Is that not the definition of "me too"? *cough* *ahem*....Still loose gears though...
    Capreo was a shimano freehub body that predated xd by quite a few years and had cogs down to 9t. Microspline bears a lot more than a passing resemblance to capreo. Shimano can't be "me too" with something they had a long time ago. If anything, SRAM was "me too" in developing a freehub body that could accept cogs smaller than 11t.

    Why they didn't expand its use earlier? I dunno. But I know people on this forum did use it on mtbs (and liked it) for awhile. You can find discussions about it on your own.

    I fail to see how loose cogs in and of themselves are inferior, though. You are failing to explain why. IMO, they are inferior when they chew up freehub bodies. But when they don't? I'm not seeing the problem. Most of the loose cogs on the 12spd shimano cassettes (much like the old capreo cassettes did) nest into each other. They are not chewing up my freehub body.

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    This is... fascinating.

    Let me start with the most important thing.

    Both uSpline and XD suck. Both of them. A proper solution for a driver for those massive cassettes is what Kappius was doing years ago, which is a massive conical driver that allows equally massive ratcheting mechanism inside and a wide bearing support for the rear hub.

    Best combo of Eagle and XTR combined?-kapp.jpg

    But that would be doing something right, and cycling biz just can't into doing that.

    Anyhow.

    1. Shimano _never_ had problems with gouged freehubs, because Shimano _never_ made HG freehub out of material that it was not desiged for. What boutique and OEM makes to appease weight weenies is irrelevant.

    2. Campagnolo freehub is better then HG because it actually was desiged _for_ being made out of aluminum, so it does not gouge with loose cog cassettes.

    Name:  campy_freehub.Jpg
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    Industry never adopted it, because industry ( in this case: shimano ) is silly

    3. XD saves 0 weight. All the weight savings on the XD ecosystem come from the PowerDome cassettes, which can be, and are being, made for each driver on the market.

    4. XD lock-sleeve is a fragile item and if not installed properely, will get damaged. There goes your $500 wear item.

    5. XD lock-sleeve is a fragile item made out of aluminium, which threads to a driver made out of aluminium with a significant torque. At some point it _will_ electrochemicaly fuse to the driver.

    6. XD lock-sleeve does not properely preload the cassette cogs, so if those cassettes are not made precisely to spec, they _will_ creak ( Hello there, Garbaruk ).

    7. XD requires a monolithic cassette. Which is the reason why SRAM is not trickling down XD to lower tier groups. They can't because their driver just does not play nice with cheaply stamped cogs.

    Combination of 7. and 8. is the reason why chinese manufacturers make HG cassettes ( and soon, I persume, Microspline cassettes as well ) by the truckload, while XD remains such a niche item.

    Microspline avoids items 3-7, thus it is a superior design. Regardless of being 5 years late.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by uzurpator View Post

    4. XD lock-sleeve is a fragile item and if not installed properely, will get damaged. There goes your $500 wear item.

    5. XD lock-sleeve is a fragile item made out of aluminium, which threads to a driver made out of aluminium with a significant torque. At some point it _will_ electrochemicaly fuse to the driver.

    6. XD lock-sleeve does not properely preload the cassette cogs, so if those cassettes are not made precisely to spec, they _will_ creak ( Hello there, Garbaruk ).

    7. XD requires a monolithic cassette. Which is the reason why SRAM is not trickling down XD to lower tier groups. They can't because their driver just does not play nice with cheaply stamped cogs.

    Microspline avoids items 3-7, thus it is a superior design. Regardless of being 5 years late.
    If you are ham-fisted enough to be mis-installing x-dome cassettes that have no "special spline" to line up, you have bigger problems than what component group you are using. You would also be tightening your cranks when they aren't lining up at opposite positions, your pedals when you put them on the wrong crank arm, cross-threading your bolts, etc. Sure, shimano cassettes wouldn't gouge shimano freehubs...but shimano freehubs sucked, not the gears, the drive mechanism, so people switched to stuff like CK and Hope that used far bigger pawls or a different type of drive mechanism entirely. Yes, they should have made the splines out of steel, but that standard should have been changed long ago. Shimano-created problem IMO. A little grease on the XD threads too, like any other interface, should give plenty of service and make it plenty easy to remove when it comes time to replace. That's really another red-herring argument, you got lots of things on your bike that are steel to aluminum, so theoretically it'll all fuse together. But it doesn't. It doesn't because of annodization, paint and grease. I've never paid anywhere near $500 for an x-dome cassette, so I assume you must have a monocle. True, the interface is for SRAM to make lightweight cassettes that Shimano can't match. Big step forward, especially considering the gears, except the top one, are still made of steel. I have the 9000 XTR cassette that uses something like 4 materials, aluminum, steel, Ti and CF in an attempt to get weight down, still nowhere near as light as my X01 cassettes, and not cheap either. That's a classic example of having to go way more exotic to compete with a better design. Yes, we are talking about the high end, but for years SRAM has dominated this with a better system. Shimano finally has a "me too!" system. Great for them. Now there are a few more options. With no real gearing or weight advantage, it's nice that you can run either drivetrain and have a decent setup. Years ago, I wouldn't have touched SRAM with a 10 foot pole after breaking multiple 9.0SL derailleurs and dealing with their shoddy cassettes and chains, but that all changed years ago. People are acting like this new shimano group is the second coming of jesus, now that they have a dedicated 1x system.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    blah blah blah... People are acting like this new shimano group is the second coming of jesus, now that they have a dedicated 1x system.
    You are digging way too deep into this. Sure, Shimano screwed the pooch super hard when they misjudged 1x so badly, and yeah they are pure evil for so poorly predicting the future when they created the foundation of every drivetrain since decades ago. Fine. The bottom line is, XD is less than ideal and is fundamentally limiting to cassette design. Assuming that Shimano ever gets their heads out of their asses and opens it up, Microspline will become the new standard because it is more friendly to everyone. Manufacturers, mechanics and consumers. It's not earth shattering, and XD certainly works as intended, but Microspline is simpler, significantly more versatile, and has no real weight or other disadvantages to XD.

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    Not sure why you would want to mix parts unless you are doing it to save $ (already have some parts), or if your wheels and/or cranks are not compatible with XTR specific parts.

    For me, I had to have someone machine the ring off of the micro spline freehub body, and I also had to wait for Wolftooth to come out with a 104mm XTR 12 speed chainring that fit my cranks.
    Once I did that I was able to install an XTR cassette, Wolftooth XTR ring and XTR 12 speed chain.
    The system runs so tight and quiet with 100% compatible parts.
    That said, I also ran it with an E Thirteen cassette and SRAM Eagle chain, and then XTR cassette and Eagle chain- Wasn't bad in these combos. Maybe 90% with E Thirteen and 95% with XTR cassette and Eagle chain.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by bootsie_cat View Post
    Not sure why you would want to mix parts unless you are doing it to save $ (already have some parts), or if your wheels and/or cranks are not compatible with XTR specific parts.
    My whole point is that I'd rather run something else rather than half-ass a Shimano 12spd drivetrain. I mean, I'm happy with 12spd Shimano and all, but I'd rather run 11spd than a mixed up 12spd drivetrain.

    And if I was doing a new build, then I'd go all in, ensuring that I had hubs compatible with micro spline and a crank that could accept a compatible chainring. And now that SLX is an option, you can do it for a more reasonable cost. Hub availability could still be better, and chainring availability could still be better.

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    I'm 100% in the camp that Sram XD is a better design than Shimano, never questioned it once I used it, never had any issues with it, works great.

    Take a step back and think about WHY Shimano did what they did w/loose cogs on their cassettes. I'm guessing it's a holdover from the road days where loose cogs were needed so they could be swapped out based on course. Obviously things trickled down from Road to MTB, but regardless, there were thousands of hubs out there that used this design and Shimano was using the golden rule of "good enough is good enough". All those hubs out there, all the boutique brands that supported their design....why change.

    By today's standard, I think the Shimano design is clunky....but doesn't bother me that much, in practice it works well enough.

  33. #33
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    Well, that thread was a massive derail!

    I use a combination of parts.

    My current setup:

    XTR 11sp shifter.
    XTR 11sp chain (though considering the KMC ebike).
    Eagle GX derailleur.
    Sunrace 11-50 cassette.

    Shifts perfectly, best of any combo I have used.

    I used to be a Shimano fanboi, but that non-licencing the micro spline was the final straw (the previous one was top disks only centrelock).
    Why would I care about 150g of bike weight, I just ate 400g of cookies while reading this?

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaveGiant View Post
    Well, that thread was a massive derail!

    I use a combination of parts.

    My current setup:

    XTR 11sp shifter.
    XTR 11sp chain (though considering the KMC ebike).
    Eagle GX derailleur.
    Sunrace 11-50 cassette.

    Shifts perfectly, best of any combo I have used.

    I used to be a Shimano fanboi, but that non-licencing the micro spline was the final straw (the previous one was top disks only centrelock).
    Centerlock all day every day....

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by RadBartTaylor View Post
    Centerlock all day every day....
    Centerlock hubs all day every day. Then, it doesn't matter what interface the rotors use. Micro spline will get wider adoption. It'll just take time.

  36. #36
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    Will I see an improvement in shifting performance if I move to a Shimano Hyperglide chain and add it to my all SRAM AXS system?

    Maybe have to swap to an Absolute Black GXP Hyperglide front chain ring as well?

  37. #37
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    shift performance under load is mostly a combination of the chain + cassette so seems like the only AXS stuff you could/should run would be shifter+rd, it's all in them matching between mostly cassette and chain, not sure if the chainring has anything to do.

  38. #38
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    I'd like to buy a new XT8100 deraileur and shifter to use on a GX Eagle, my deraileur is wirned out (the pathetic clutch is gone and I'm having huge chainslap),for what I know Shimano derailleurs tend to have a higher clutch force,does anyone tried something the Shimano 12v speed on SRAM cassettes?

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by bullit43 View Post
    I'd like to buy a new XT8100 deraileur and shifter to use on a GX Eagle, my deraileur is wirned out (the pathetic clutch is gone and I'm having huge chainslap),for what I know Shimano derailleurs tend to have a higher clutch force,does anyone tried something the Shimano 12v speed on SRAM cassettes?
    I have a barely used X01 Eagle Derailleur (and shifter). I'd sale the Derailleur for $105 shipped.

  40. #40
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    I'm from Portugal m8,thanks anyway.

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Suns_PSD View Post
    Will I see an improvement in shifting performance if I move to a Shimano Hyperglide chain and add it to my all SRAM AXS system?

    Maybe have to swap to an Absolute Black GXP Hyperglide front chain ring as well?
    What is it you’re not happy with? Is it the shifts themselves? Or the noise?

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by jon123 View Post
    What is it you’re not happy with? Is it the shifts themselves? Or the noise?
    It's not bad. It shifts nearly identical to Eagle, maybe a little crunchier. It appears Shimano shifts better, and I need a new chain anyways.

    Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

  43. #43
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    Srimano

    Best combo of Eagle and XTR combined?-img-20190703-wa0005.jpg

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by bullit43 View Post
    Srimano

    Click image for larger version. 

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    How's it working? I have a buddy with a NX Eagle who can't stand the shifter and derailleur. He wan't to eventually change it all to Shimano 12 speed when the funds allow.
    Change begins by doing something different.

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by huckleberry hound View Post
    How's it working? I have a buddy with a NX Eagle who can't stand the shifter and derailleur. He wan't to eventually change it all to Shimano 12 speed when the funds allow.
    i can't get it to work,I think indexation is different I think.

  46. #46
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    been reading on some german forum that apparently you can use eagle shifters with shimano rd. works better on sram cogs which are slighly different thickness.

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by bullit43 View Post
    i can't get it to work,I think indexation is different I think.
    Are you using a Shimano shifter with that derailleur?
    Change begins by doing something different.

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by huckleberry hound View Post
    Are you using a Shimano shifter with that derailleur?
    Yes,a XT 12v shifter,I checked and they ar the right model, there are two rear derailleur models,one for the 10-51cassete and another one with a smaller cage for the 10-46.Shifter there's only one.iv already ordered the cassete, chain and DT micro spline freehub kit.

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by uzurpator View Post
    4. XD lock-sleeve is a fragile item and if not installed properely, will get damaged. There goes your $500 wear item.

    5. XD lock-sleeve is a fragile item made out of aluminium, which threads to a driver made out of aluminium with a significant torque. At some point it _will_ electrochemicaly fuse to the driver.

    6. XD lock-sleeve does not properely preload the cassette cogs, so if those cassettes are not made precisely to spec, they _will_ creak ( Hello there, Garbaruk ).

    7. XD requires a monolithic cassette. Which is the reason why SRAM is not trickling down XD to lower tier groups. They can't because their driver just does not play nice with cheaply stamped cogs.
    I've started to sour on XD for many of these reasons. The most fundamental is that I can't remove my 1195 cassette. I installed it with a torque wrench and anti-seize, but damned if that made a difference. My Park chain whip starts to bend before I can generate enough torque, which is well beyond what any HG cassette has required. I'm hesitant to try harder because I'd rather not destroy the aluminum lock sleeve.

    To the OP's question: HG+ is what makes M9100 the best mechanical shifting system available. That requires the XTR cassette, derailleur, and chain, and ideally the XTR shifter. As attractive as SRAM's cassettes are (I can't say I'm thrilled about titanium), I'd still go full Shimano. The relative scarcity of Microspline won't last.

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexdi View Post
    To the OP's question: HG+ is what makes M9100 the best mechanical shifting system available. That requires the XTR cassette, derailleur, and chain, and ideally the XTR shifter. As attractive as SRAM's cassettes are (I can't say I'm thrilled about titanium), I'd still go full Shimano. The relative scarcity of Microspline won't last.
    Agree that the HG+ is the big thing with XTR, but not sure it requires the XTR rear mech to be honest? It definitely requires the cassette and chain (and also front chainring to mesh with the chain), but the derailleur only moves the chain along the cassette so should in theory work just as well with an Eagle derailleur and shifter (as long as spacing is the same). That said, I vastly prefer Shimano shifter and derailleur over Sram.

    Also, never mind the titanium cogs, it's the three aluminum cogs l'd worry about. Hope they hold up, but not thrilled about that choice of material for anything but the bail-out gear. Just shows that the Sram one-piece milling construction is superior from a weight perspective, forcing Shimano to use weaker metals to even come close to matching Sram's weights.

  51. #51
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    Why so many hub manufacturers insist on making HG freehubs out of aluminum is beyond me.

    To make matters worse, in the case of DT Swiss, who has a freakin stranglehold on the production of DT freehubs, makes a steel freehub that is MORE expensive than it's alloy models. XD - $40, HG-alloy - $60, HG-Steel - $95 buckaroos. MicroSpline - Also $95!

    It'll be interesting to see if MicroSpline suffers from the same biting issues as other HG aluminum freehub bodies.

    Anyway, so I'm in a bind for this reason - I've got two DT350 wheelsets, one with HG freehub, one with XD freehub. I've got a garage full of HG cassettes. HG cassettes are also far more common and affordable. I've also got 3 spare 11spd M8000 derailuers and one 10spd drivetrain setup as well. I recently bought a DT Swiss XD freehub attached to a SRAM 1150 10-42 11spd cassette - because it was a bargain. Now I've got two XD freehubs. This doesn't make SRAM cassettes any more affordable.

    The only saving grace is the SunRace CSMX9X which uses an adapter tube to mount a 10-46 cassette on a XD freehub for $100. Sweet. I should stock up on a few of these!

    If XD cassettes could be made as cheap as HG cassettes, I think XD would have vastly more market saturation, but as it is, I see XD as being "locked it" to expensive cassettes.
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  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by PHeller View Post
    It'll be interesting to see if MicroSpline suffers from the same biting issues as other HG aluminum freehub bodies.
    Microspline has 23 splines which are about twice as deep as those on hg freehub. There are just 9 splines on HG. So we are dealing with about 5-8 times higher contact area for each cog. I think we are safe to assume that even aluminum microspline freehubs will not gouge.

  53. #53
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    Of course, the MicroSpline value proposition is opposite of the XD freehub:

    With XD, your forced to buy 11spd cassettes from either SRAM, Ztto or SunRace at $100+

    With MicroSpline, you're forced to buy 12spd Cassettes from Shimano - which means going full blown 12spd drivetrain.

    I'm hoping that there is some way of running 12spd cassete + 12spd shifter + 11spd derailluer, but early reports are a "no" on that mix.

    The better option would be 10/11spd cassette for MicroSpline.
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  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by PHeller View Post
    Of course, the MicroSpline value proposition is opposite of the XD freehub:

    With XD, your forced to buy 11spd cassettes from either SRAM, Ztto or SunRace at $100+

    With MicroSpline, you're forced to buy 12spd Cassettes from Shimano - which means going full blown 12spd drivetrain.

    I'm hoping that there is some way of running 12spd cassete + 12spd shifter + 11spd derailluer, but early reports are a "no" on that mix.

    The better option would be 10/11spd cassette for MicroSpline.
    Hi P, reading this post and your previous one...I can see why you're in a world of pain. I'd simplify it. Sell the 11sp stuff, and move to 12 (xD or microspline or ZTTO [HG] or Sunrace [HG] cassette's), or forget 12 and stick with 11.

    I'm not sure how "stocking up" on 11sp stuff is serving you, when you talk about wanting to upgrade to 12 speed??

  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by PHeller View Post
    Why so many hub manufacturers insist on making HG freehubs out of aluminum is beyond me.

    To make matters worse, in the case of DT Swiss, who has a freakin stranglehold on the production of DT freehubs, makes a steel freehub that is MORE expensive than it's alloy models. XD - $40, HG-alloy - $60, HG-Steel - $95 buckaroos. MicroSpline - Also $95!

    It'll be interesting to see if MicroSpline suffers from the same biting issues as other HG aluminum freehub bodies.

    Anyway, so I'm in a bind for this reason - I've got two DT350 wheelsets, one with HG freehub, one with XD freehub. I've got a garage full of HG cassettes. HG cassettes are also far more common and affordable. I've also got 3 spare 11spd M8000 derailuers and one 10spd drivetrain setup as well. I recently bought a DT Swiss XD freehub attached to a SRAM 1150 10-42 11spd cassette - because it was a bargain. Now I've got two XD freehubs. This doesn't make SRAM cassettes any more affordable.

    The only saving grace is the SunRace CSMX9X which uses an adapter tube to mount a 10-46 cassette on a XD freehub for $100. Sweet. I should stock up on a few of these!

    If XD cassettes could be made as cheap as HG cassettes, I think XD would have vastly more market saturation, but as it is, I see XD as being "locked it" to expensive cassettes.
    Machining steel is much harder than machining aluminum. Aluminum is soft, steel eats through bits and is tougher on all the machinery.

    When shimano first started getting into mtb, their rear hubs were pretty crappy. They stayed crappy for a long time. They still make some pretty crappy ones. The biggest reason was the drive mechanism, it was simply ill-suited for the torque and conditions that make up mtb. CK came along and offered a drive mechanism that was infinitely better and still arguably on top due to the essentially continuous engagement, but a lot of other hub manufacturers got into it, competing for weight and everything else. Shimano seemed to make no effort for a long time to address the shortcomings of their drive mechanism, so all of these other hub manufacturers became pretty popular, with a few falling out over the years. Yes, shimano knew better with steel and Ti freehub splines, but the loose cassette is yesterday's news anyway and they should know better than to be making these in 2019 OR supply the requisite individual cogs (they don't). If they were supplying the individual cogs, then it would at least make some sense. Otherwise, I think most hub makers figure you'll get a few seasons out of the mechanism and then have to switch it out if it gets too bad, which does happen (completely stripping it).

    This is why I like the XD driver, it moves the torque in as close to the inside of the hub as possible, reducing the lever arm, in addition to no loose gears. On the microspline, all of those splines stretching all the way to the end of the hub are there to support the individual gears, but if it was a one-piece cassette like SRAM, they'd only need a few mm close to the hub and the rest could be smooth (lighter). This is a classic example of using exotic engineering (shimano with the deeper and even more spliney-microspline) to compete with a better design, just like their multi-material cassette that has to revert to carbon fiber, titanium, etc. and still ends up heavier.

    It will be interesting to see if they gouge. If not, great, but it's hard to forgive shimano for those loose cassettes for so long. This is more of an evolutionary change, a good one, but not of the level that would make me want to go back.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  56. #56
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    How about the Sram NX 12 speed (with HG freehub) with new Shimano shifter and derailleur? Has anyone tried?

    By the way, yes, my previous DT Swiss freehub gauged very quickly. Never had this problem before, with XD. Now I'm using a Hadley hub with titanium freehub. Let's see how that's gonna last.

  57. #57
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    It works like a champ - https://youtu.be/g4l_O1qtJ8I

    Also, you might want to look at the SunRace 12 speed, lighter and it won't gauge your freehub like the NX - https://youtu.be/J66zYaIv48M
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