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  1. #1
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    IPA will save America

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    Word! Was hoping it would fit standard freehub bodies, but SRAM started their own system to accommodate their 12 speed system...so that shouldn't be much of a whining point. The fact that overall as a group, it will be lighter and less expensive makes me happy...but I'm definitely waiting until 2019 for the XT version.

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    If it is as good as it looks, is should be all around significantly better than Eagle. And Shimano is one of those manufacturers whose products generally live up to their appearances. They had enough time to get it right, and they really needed to deliver.

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    Cant wait to fold one of those cassettes into a taco. I've already bent 10 and 11 speed XT, and I cant see this being any stronger. Also, claiming it's 10% wider range is a bit misleading. Its only 2% wider as compared to eagle. And introducing new standards for both freehubs and presumably direct mount chainrings, uggh.

    I know SRAM stuff certainly isnt perfect. Some of it is so heavy its downright piggish. But I'm pretty underwhelmed by this new shimano stuff. But who knows, maybe they made those cassettes out of pure unobtanium than wont fold faster than superman on laundry day.

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    Sounds all good till I got to the part about the new hub standard. yuck. Not going to say it is better or worse then XD, but it now means 3 standards floating around. Not good.


    Is there any listing of the ratios on the 11spd 10-45 and 12spd 10-45 and 10-51 cassettes?

    The 11-46 was always a good range, but I hated the jump to the 46t. Seems like too big of a gap. I wonder what these new ones are. Visually they look more uniform.
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    The group looks sick. But it feel too little too late - especially since they don't have an answer for GX Eagle with XT and/or SLX groupo. Too much leap of faith for both OEMs and consumers to swap out everything for yet another standard.

    The the top end Treks and S-Works will adopt XTR to differentiate, but I see less incentive for smaller OEMs as I doubt the sell much XX1 builds today anyway.

    SRAM will likely answer with a "yawn" closer space cassette for the SoulCycle spinners out there. But otherwise, I don't think they're much concerned about this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GuitsBoy View Post
    Cant wait to fold one of those cassettes into a taco. I've already bent 10 and 11 speed XT, and I cant see this being any stronger. Also, claiming it's 10% wider range is a bit misleading. Its only 2% wider as compared to eagle. And introducing new standards for both freehubs and presumably direct mount chainrings, uggh.

    I know SRAM stuff certainly isnt perfect. Some of it is so heavy its downright piggish. But I'm pretty underwhelmed by this new shimano stuff. But who knows, maybe they made those cassettes out of pure unobtanium than wont fold faster than superman on laundry day.
    Missing the point though... More range, less weight, less $$$. Only a SRAM fanboi would think it's a bad idea unless they're invested in something besides DT to swap the freehub. On a new complete build... Why not get more for less assuming the performance is on par or even better than SRAM?

    Granted, I'd rather see them stick with the normal Shimano freehub and lose the 10t. Just run a new 11-51 on the normal freehub spline... But whatever. I think it will be fine, and you know Hope Et Al will make a freehub for them.

    They've already eluded to the XT release.

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    It looks great and undoubtedly will work very well.

    The dealbreaker for me is the new hub, and the fact that apparently it'll only be licensed to DT Swiss, so you'll need DT or Shimano hubs. This seems like a real error on Shimano's part; if you're introducing a new standard shouldn't' you try to get it in as many hands as possible? Make it an open design so all hub makers can offer conversion freehubs? No way I'm tossing or rebuilding my really nice I9-hubbed wheels for this.

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    I, for one, am looking forward to 12spd being semi-affordable (XT). SRAM can go pound sand with their prices.

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    I'm quite happy with 11sp to be quite honest.

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    I run DT Swiss hubs, but I'm going to keep using X01 Eagle cassettes with this new XTR 12 shifter and soon-to-follow XT rear derailleur. All my 11sp bikes have SRAM X01 10-42 cassettes with XTR triggers and SLX derailleurs (after years of XTR derailleurs....no difference other than 45 grams). I like Eagle, but my XTR 11 speed with its multi-shift lever is hands-down the favorite.

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    And since I went 11-42 and 28t offset granny position on my 180mm XT crankset...I don't need anymore gears.

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    Love that new hub. 47 pts engagement, quiet, lighter, and the non series is the same thing but $100 less. Ditching the need for titanium will drive down the cost and the new freehub will be more durable.

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    Huh?!

    No Super Boost hubs? Pivot is going all in on 157mm and now Shimano rolls out their flagship group without it?

    2018 Shimano XTR 12-speed-facepalm-newspaper.jpg

  16. #16
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    another ispec standard is just what we need

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    Who thought it was a good idea to make the top 3 cassette cogs alloy! TBH The shifter and mech mated to a eagle cassette might be the best setup.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chelboed View Post
    Missing the point though... More range, less weight, less $$$. Only a SRAM fanboi would think it's a bad idea unless they're invested in something besides DT to swap the freehub. On a new complete build... Why not get more for less assuming the performance is on par or even better than SRAM?

    Granted, I'd rather see them stick with the normal Shimano freehub and lose the 10t. Just run a new 11-51 on the normal freehub spline... But whatever. I think it will be fine, and you know Hope Et Al will make a freehub for them.

    They've already eluded to the XT release.
    I feel that youve missed my point. I have a history of folding shimano cassettes with torque alone (not shifting). A 51t cog made of alloy, a such a light weight is a prime contender to get bent almost immediately. That is my concern. What good is performance is the parts are not durable. The range is negligible in difference (Its a 2% not 10% difference). Price remains to be seen.

    So am I to assume that ANYONE who does not run Shimano and DT Swiss is a SRAM fanboi now? Fanboy or not, their cassettes have proven far more durable for me.

    And doing away with the new freehub and keeping this 11-50 does away with the core reason they developed this in the first place. They needed a new freehub to be competitive IMO.

    I'm sure other brands will adopt the new standard, but seeing how even the DT240s cant be converted, many other brands may find their hub shells incompatible.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by GuitsBoy View Post
    (...) but seeing how even the DT240s cant be converted, many other brands may find their hub shells incompatible.
    Where did you get that information?
    This doesn't only mean a new free hub body if you want to change systems, this would also mean a new hub.

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    About mid way through the MTBR article.

    Murdick also pointed out that DT makes some hubs (both in house and for others) such as the top-of-the-line 240s where freehub body modification is not possible, and thus wonít work with Micro-Spline.

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    This doesn't mean we can't replace the freehub body with the new Hiperglyde +. My interpretation is that the current ones can't be adapted, in the same sense we can't adapt a Hiperglyde body to a XD body, but we can replace it.
    But I can be wrong .

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    I think thats exactly what that means. The new freehub wont fit the existing hub shells. Hyperglide+ is the chain mesh and shift ramp technology, its not the freehub spline. The freehub spline is what hey call micro-spline.

    Here's an expanded quote from the article:

    DT Swiss also makes wheels for lots of other people (remember the Roval example) and Murdick believes that in most instances, those hubs will be okay, too. ďBut there is not a guarantee that it will be upgradable to the new freehub body,Ē he conceded. ďThe issue is that the hub shell could touch if it hangs out over the free body, because [with the new Micro-Spline system] we do take up just a little bit more space. So yes, there could be a case where a wheel [with DT Swiss made hubs] is not upgradeable. But I think those will be pretty rare.Ē Letís hope soÖ

    Murdick also pointed out that DT makes some hubs (both in house and for others) such as the top-of-the-line 240s where freehub body modification is not possible, and thus wonít work with Micro-Spline. And no, you cannot upgrade existing Shimano hubs.

  23. #23
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    That seems a really bad excuse to sell new hubs. I have a DT 240s and a DT 350 and there's is no way that the hub shell protrude from the flange more than the new XTR, you can easily compare pictures from both hubs and see that this is true.
    I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm just calling BS on them.
    Thanks for correcting me regarding the Hyperglide, I always thought the term also applied to the freehub, we learn something every day

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    Quote Originally Posted by GuitsBoy View Post
    I have a history of folding shimano cassettes with torque alone (not shifting).

    Is that common? I've been through lots of Shimano 10 speed cassettes with zero problems and haven't seen or heard of any issues here or elsewhere. No experience with their 11-speed yet.

    Conversely I've seen a ton of broken and folded cogs on sram wide range cassettes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aglo View Post
    Thanks for correcting me regarding the Hyperglide, I always thought the term also applied to the freehub, we learn something every day
    In the past, hyperglide did describe the freehub splines, however in this case, i think they went with microspline to make sure there would be no confusion between hyperglide and hyperglide+.

    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Is that common? I've been through lots of Shimano 10 speed cassettes with zero problems and haven't seen or heard of any issues here or elsewhere. No experience with their 11-speed yet.

    Conversely I've seen a ton of broken and folded cogs on sram wide range cassettes.
    The SRAM cassettes do indeed have some issues with chipped teeth, though I think that may be due to powershifting. I havent seen many issues with folding compared to all the chipped teeth out there. Im lucky to have never run into that. I have only ever slightly bent an XG-1150 cassette, never a full taco. Shimano cassettes have fully folded on me, but then again so have expensive e-13, cheap sunrace, and practically every other cassette out there. Its a function of extreme chainlines, clydeness, fatb/plus bike traction, and furious mashing. Something's bound to break under the abuse, and on occasion its the cassette's big cog folding over.

  26. #26
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    New i-spec mount (for the 4th time!), new hub/cassette standard that isn't XD, brakes don't appear to have solved the eventual failure mode that all shimano brakes suffer from and they still won't sell you seal kits. This makes the choice easy for me. Pedals and chains is all I'll buy from them anymore.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    New i-spec mount (for the 4th time!), new hub/cassette standard that isn't XD, brakes don't appear to have solved the eventual failure mode that all shimano brakes suffer from and they still won't sell you seal kits. This makes the choice easy for me. Pedals and chains is all I'll buy from them anymore.
    The I-Spec thing is getting a bit crazy, but there seems to be a legit reason behind why they changed it, related to stiffening the lever mounting, so as long as there is a real improvement I am OK with it. The new freehub looks to be clearly superior to XD, and a requirement for how Shimano has always made their cassettes. Now that they are weight competitive with SRAM, it makes even more sense. I guess I have been lucky with brakes because I can't seem to kill Shimano wet brakes, at any level or vintage. It's funny, the main SRAM thing I did use was chains, it looks like there is a pretty good chance I will be going back to Shimano.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Velodonata View Post
    The I-Spec thing is getting a bit crazy, but there seems to be a legit reason behind why they changed it, related to stiffening the lever mounting, so as long as there is a real improvement I am OK with it. The new freehub looks to be clearly superior to XD, and a requirement for how Shimano has always made their cassettes. Now that they are weight competitive with SRAM, it makes even more sense. I guess I have been lucky with brakes because I can't seem to kill Shimano wet brakes, at any level or vintage. It's funny, the main SRAM thing I did use was chains, it looks like there is a pretty good chance I will be going back to Shimano.
    The new free hub is clearly superior to XD? Please explain.

    My shimano brakes usually blow the seals after a couple years, but as little as one.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aglo View Post
    Where did you get that information?
    This doesn't only mean a new free hub body if you want to change systems, this would also mean a new hub.
    Nope. It looks like free hubs will be available as they are now for HD and the venerable Shimano standard https://bikerumor.com/2018/05/26/dt-...omment-3227644

    2018 Shimano XTR 12-speed-img_1266.jpg

    Personally I think this new group is fantastic, 1x done right especially with the great additional options of 1045 and 1045 11 speed (acknowledging that 11 is enough when paired with a reduced range cassette even in competition). Plus a serious spline interface (my HD splines are dented after 6 months of use), two or four piston caliper for enduro, convertible shifter 12 to 11, and ...

    SILENT HUBS! Finally! no more machine gun ta-ta-ta-ta-ta-ta when coasting!

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by GuitsBoy View Post
    ...I have a history of folding shimano cassettes with torque alone (not shifting). A 51t cog made of alloy, a such a light weight is a prime contender to get bent almost immediately. That is my concern. What good is performance is the parts are not durable. The range is negligible in difference (Its a 2% not 10% difference). Price remains to be seen.

    So am I to assume that ANYONE who does not run Shimano and DT Swiss is a SRAM fanboi now? Fanboy or not, their cassettes have proven far more durable for me...
    You must be a gorilla, haha. I've never folded any cogs in few decades of riding. Never seen any gorilla quads on the YDF or Works Cup food a cig either. You're missing your can't if you're saying your monsterly string enough to fold cogs with your bodacious man quads regularly enough to steer clear of certain to end equipment designed to withstand such things.

    Regarding you being a SRAM fanboi...I call em as I see em. It's not a sin to be A SRAM fanboi. I'm an XT fanboi. They've always produced what I've needed. I like the group and have never give a reason not to. The only difference is you're implying that you're in denial about it.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    The new free hub is clearly superior to XD? Please explain.

    My shimano brakes usually blow the seals after a couple years, but as little as one.
    XD requires an oddball cassette design because the locating features and threads are way down towards the base. It can be difficult to torque correctly and it leaves a bearing sticking half out the end. So if you are SRAM with a unique way of milling uber-expensive cassettes and you want to make sure Shimano can't use your "open" design without jumping through hoops, it's great. But it was never going to work for Shimano, and the new Shimano design is more adaptable to various methods of manufacturing a cassette and requires a very basic lockring similar to what everybody but SRAM has been using for decades.

    You probably run your brakes harder than me, I have sets of very old Shimano brakes that still work but I just upgraded to newer ones anyway. I have tossed Avid/SRAM brakes in the trash out of annoyance but the only non-functional Shimano caliper I have was bought and taken apart to be used as a buck for brake mount mods. I know SRAM has upped their game but I have had no reason to try them.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aglo View Post
    This doesn't mean we can't replace the freehub body with the new Hiperglyde +. My interpretation is that the current ones can't be adapted, in the same sense we can't adapt a Hiperglyde body to a XD body, but we can replace it.
    But I can be wrong .
    It loos like you are right! 2018 Shimano XTR 12-speed-img_1266.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by Davide View Post
    It looks like free hubs will be available as they are now for HD and the venerable Shimano standard
    Yes, and when pictures of the DT version freehub by itself are already popping up, that's a good sign for upgrades to existing hubs.

    It sounds like upgrade compatibility will be on a case by case basis, since there are minor dimensional differences between the new and old.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by chelboed View Post
    You must be a gorilla, haha. I've never folded any cogs in few decades of riding. Never seen any gorilla quads on the YDF or Works Cup food a cig either. You're missing your can't if you're saying your monsterly string enough to fold cogs with your bodacious man quads regularly enough to steer clear of certain to end equipment designed to withstand such things.

    Regarding you being a SRAM fanboi...I call em as I see em. It's not a sin to be A SRAM fanboi. I'm an XT fanboi. They've always produced what I've needed. I like the group and have never give a reason not to. The only difference is you're implying that you're in denial about it.
    Have all the fun you want, but the truth is, I'm a bit of a gymrat with a combined 1350 in the "big three". I break shit. I also ride trails with short punchy climbs, so I dont have to put out watts over long periods of time, which means I can burn myself out on a single climb. Couple that to fatbike and plus bike traction, and yes, I blow out freehubs, pull chains apart, and on occasion, fold a big cog over. It happens. And I'm sure I'm far from the only one that does this. The reason you dont see guys much faster and much stronger than me fold them over is because they have developed proper technique, and are not just mashing away with careless abandon. Doesn't mean I dont do what Im saying happens.

    I've given shimano drivetrain plenty of shots, and they always shift great. But with the advent of 36T and bigger cogs, the sram stuff is more durable for me. I still have shimano brakes on at least six bikes, so I'm not just a Shimano hater. Just sticking with what works for me.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by GuitsBoy View Post
    I feel that youve missed my point. I have a history of folding shimano cassettes with torque alone (not shifting). A 51t cog made of alloy, a such a light weight is a prime contender to get bent almost immediately. That is my concern.
    For the 160lb racers this group is meant for....this is not their concern.

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schulze View Post
    For the 160lb racers this group is meant for....this is not their concern.
    Why not? They're producing a lot of torque too.
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    Do you see anyone else complaining of "folding" a cassette cog? I've never even heard of that.

    We have one guy on the edge of the bell curve complaining. When you live on the edge....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Velodonata View Post
    The I-Spec thing is getting a bit crazy, but there seems to be a legit reason behind why they changed it, related to stiffening the lever mounting, so as long as there is a real improvement I am OK with it. The new freehub looks to be clearly superior to XD, and a requirement for how Shimano has always made their cassettes. Now that they are weight competitive with SRAM, it makes even more sense. I guess I have been lucky with brakes because I can't seem to kill Shimano wet brakes, at any level or vintage. It's funny, the main SRAM thing I did use was chains, it looks like there is a pretty good chance I will be going back to Shimano.
    XD driver seems to me to be better in every single way, care to tell me why its not? Also from I spec-A to I-spec 2 the shifter mounting became more flexy and the the brake mounting did as well as you were putting less lever on the bar.

    Also a XX1 cassette is still lighter despite been out on the market for 2 years!

    TBH it all seems like a farmer shutting the gate after the horse has bolted.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schulze View Post
    Do you see anyone else complaining of "folding" a cassette cog? I've never even heard of that.
    I'm not complaining, since Ive obviously never used one. Im just voicing my concerns that considering the weight and my previous track record with shimano XT cassettes, I would be worried about bending cogs. And honestly, there been plenty of reports of guys much smaller than I that have bent all different brands of cassettes, sram included. I'm not a unique and special butterfly.

    Until we actually get some miles on these new clusters, and see how they actually ride, and how strong they are, it's all just a guessing game anyway.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Draper View Post
    XD driver seems to me to be better in every single way, care to tell me why its not? Also from I spec-A to I-spec 2 the shifter mounting became more flexy and the the brake mounting did as well as you were putting less lever on the bar.

    Also a XX1 cassette is still lighter despite been out on the market for 2 years!

    TBH it all seems like a farmer shutting the gate after the horse has bolted.
    I already answered this earlier in this thread.

    http://forums.mtbr.com/drivetrain-sh...l#post13679299

    Please explain why you think XD is better in "every single way".

    Cassette weights are not getting much lower without the price going from high to ridiculous, they both ended up at the same place taking their own paths. I like the SRAM cassettes just fine, even with XD, but with the better selections, apparently but yet to be proven better shifting, and the new freehub, I will probably be running Shimano cassettes in the future.

    As to the I-spec thing, as I have said, the new version was needed because they wanted to make a beneficial change to their brake lever mounting. I have the M9000 Race brake levers on one of my bikes, and there is noticeable flex if you look at them as you squeeze them hard. I can't say I notice it when riding, but the new design will eliminate this flex, and the new I-spec also is more adjustable than the previous versions. Continuous improvements is the standard and desirable way of doing things, I really don't care about standards and long as there is improvement to be had for changing them.

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schulze View Post
    For the 160lb racers this group is meant for....this is not their concern.
    There has never really been any rider weight limit on XTR, since it was first introduced back in 1985.

    This is a group that will be on the top of the line $7,000-10000 range bikes. People will use the cross country XTR to race with it, they will use the enduro XTR to race with it, but most people will buy XTR for its performance and light weight and never see a starting line ...
    Last edited by Davide; 05-26-2018 at 06:15 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by noapathy View Post
    I, for one, am looking forward to 12spd being semi-affordable (XT). SRAM can go pound sand with their prices.
    Agree!
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    Quote Originally Posted by westin View Post
    I run DT Swiss hubs, but I'm going to keep using X01 Eagle cassettes with this new XTR 12 shifter and soon-to-follow XT rear derailleur. All my 11sp bikes have SRAM X01 10-42 cassettes with XTR triggers and SLX derailleurs (after years of XTR derailleurs....no difference other than 45 grams). I like Eagle, but my XTR 11 speed with its multi-shift lever is hands-down the favorite.
    Same plan, but......is anybody sure that the cog spacing is identical between Shimano and SRAM. It always has been, but who knows? I've seen no direct mention of this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velodonata View Post
    XD requires an oddball cassette design because the locating features and threads are way down towards the base. It can be difficult to torque correctly and it leaves a bearing sticking half out the end. So if you are SRAM with a unique way of milling uber-expensive cassettes and you want to make sure Shimano can't use your "open" design without jumping through hoops, it's great. But it was never going to work for Shimano, and the new Shimano design is more adaptable to various methods of manufacturing a cassette and requires a very basic lockring similar to what everybody but SRAM has been using for decades.

    You probably run your brakes harder than me, I have sets of very old Shimano brakes that still work but I just upgraded to newer ones anyway. I have tossed Avid/SRAM brakes in the trash out of annoyance but the only non-functional Shimano caliper I have was bought and taken apart to be used as a buck for brake mount mods. I know SRAM has upped their game but I have had no reason to try them.
    Well of course the threads and splines are way towards the base, thatís because itís a superior design. It doesnít try to apply torque over a long lever arm like shimano (which results in the scoring problem). To boot, itís lighter. Yes, SRAM figured out how to CNC lightweight cassettes out of steel, but we were taking about the XD driver specifically. Itís better, thatís all there is too it. Itís not an oddball driver/ cassette design anymore when you can buy several different manufacturers cassettes, like you can now. Wake up and smell the coffee. XD was a huge improvement over the traditional cassette interface.


    Did I mention SRAM brakes? No, just the flaws of shimano, they weep fluid if you let them set for a period of time and eventually they give out, average for me is about 2-3 yrs, that would be fine and dandy if they actually sold seal kits. Iíve warrantied xtr, had xt give out too.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davide View Post
    There has never been any rider weight limit on XTR, since it was first introduced back in 1985.

    This is a group that will be on the top of the line $7,000-10000 range bikes. People will use the cross country XTR to race with it, they will use the enduro XTR to race with it, but most people will buy XTR for its performance and light weight and never see a starting line ...
    And if they engineered it for the top .1% of riders it wouldn't be light enough for anyone to buy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Did I mention SRAM brakes? No, just the flaws of shimano, they weep fluid if you let them set for a period of time and eventually they give out, average for me is about 2-3 yrs, that would be fine and dandy if they actually sold seal kits. Iíve warrantied xtr, had xt give out too.
    Huge generalization based on your experience. Based on my experience Shimano brakes are flawless. Still have a pair of 4 Pot XTs from 2000 that have never been bled and still work as well as the day I put them on.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Well of course the threads and splines are way towards the base, thatís because itís a superior design. It doesnít try to apply torque over a long lever arm like shimano (which results in the scoring problem). To boot, itís lighter. Yes, SRAM figured out how to CNC lightweight cassettes out of steel, but we were taking about the XD driver specifically. Itís better, thatís all there is too it. Itís not an oddball driver/ cassette design anymore when you can buy several different manufacturers cassettes, like you can now. Wake up and smell the coffee. XD was a huge improvement over the traditional cassette interface.


    Did I mention SRAM brakes? No, just the flaws of shimano, they weep fluid if you let them set for a period of time and eventually they give out, average for me is about 2-3 yrs, that would be fine and dandy if they actually sold seal kits. Iíve warrantied xtr, had xt give out too.
    I hate to break this to you, but all the non-Sram XD cassettes on the market are compromised designs due to the XD driver. And it is not XD that makes SRAM cassettes good. I guarantee you that if there had been an open choice between XD or Micro-Spline, there would be zero takers for XD. The e*thirteen XD cassette is a freakshow that took multiple versions to get right, and Garbaruk has changed theirs to use a second lockring. The external locking threads requiring some sort of deep locking sleeve or other gimmick is far from the elegant simplicity of Shimano's freehubs. I don't know where you are trying to go with your talk of torque and lever arms, it's not going to score any points for XD either. Even the SRAM XD cassettes mount finicky compared to any Shimano cassette, nobody ever wondered if their XTR cassette was torqued correctly or ruined their cassette with a damaged sleeve. XD was OK when there was no other choice, but it's got nothing to offer over Micro-Spline going forward. I just hope Shimano doesn't keep it locked down.

    I don't know what to say about your brake problems, I'll say it again, I have a workshop full of Shimano brakes of various vintages and zero failures. I have put them on several friends bikes over the years with no complaints, either.

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    Wouldnít it be cool if the new XT comes out with an 12 speed 11-51 cassette, that fits on the old hubs! so those who wish to upgrade there old drivetrains can...
    And hopefully Shimano releases a NEW 11 speed Hyperglide cassette 11-45, for our existing Shimano 11 speed drivetrains.

    Personally I perfer Shimano
    Iíve never had much luck with SRAM, but obviously many do tho. Both the X01 12x and 11x systems have given me trouble, but the cheeper XTR 1x11 has been perfect, (except for when running it with the X01 cassette it wouldnít shift as sweet. But it was very good)

    This xtr is pretty much just for new build top of the line bikes ah.

    The bike industry is so waistfull.
    If the demand for a 10 tooth cog was so great, Surely the engineers at Shimano could have made a cheep light cassette for the XD free hub.

    My DT 240s are redundant anyhow as they are only 135. And bike frames donít use that standard anymore 🤔

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bay1 View Post
    Wouldnít it be cool if the new XT comes out with an 12 speed 11-51 cassette, that fits on the old hubs! so those who wish to upgrade there old drivetrains can..
    Ha! I just posted this thought on another forum. If XT requires Shimano or DT hubs, it's doomed, IMO, so 11-51 FTW!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velodonata View Post
    I hate to break this to you, but all the non-Sram XD cassettes on the market are compromised designs due to the XD driver. And it is not XD that makes SRAM cassettes good. I guarantee you that if there had been an open choice between XD or Micro-Spline, there would be zero takers for XD. The e*thirteen XD cassette is a freakshow that took multiple versions to get right, and Garbaruk has changed theirs to use a second lockring. The external locking threads requiring some sort of deep locking sleeve or other gimmick is far from the elegant simplicity of Shimano's freehubs. I don't know where you are trying to go with your talk of torque and lever arms, it's not going to score any points for XD either. Even the SRAM XD cassettes mount finicky compared to any Shimano cassette, nobody ever wondered if their XTR cassette was torqued correctly or ruined their cassette with a damaged sleeve. XD was OK when there was no other choice, but it's got nothing to offer over Micro-Spline going forward. I just hope Shimano doesn't keep it locked down.

    I don't know what to say about your brake problems, I'll say it again, I have a workshop full of Shimano brakes of various vintages and zero failures. I have put them on several friends bikes over the years with no complaints, either.
    Ok, so to summarize your statement:

    You don't like E13 cassettes.

    You don't understand why the shimano-compatible cassette body gets heavily scored on the outside edge (away from the center).

    You have trouble installing parts.

    All you want to know about shimano brakes can be found here:

    Frankenbrakes and brake improvement discussion | Ridemonkey Forums
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoTone View Post
    Huge generalization based on your experience. Based on my experience Shimano brakes are flawless. Still have a pair of 4 Pot XTs from 2000 that have never been bled and still work as well as the day I put them on.
    The 4-pots were a totally different brake and arguably better than the more recent stuff that is doomed to failure.

    I spoke with the shimano rep about this at my last race, he basically agreed with me about the terminal failure and stated that due to how they are mass-produced, they aren't interested in putting out any seal kits. That means you can't do a "refresh" after a season or two, to prevent an untimely failure. That is downright dangerous.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kosmo View Post
    Same plan, but......is anybody sure that the cog spacing is identical between Shimano and SRAM. It always has been, but who knows? I've seen no direct mention of this.
    SRAM has 3,65mm spacing and new XTR uses 3,5mm spacing so no compatibility.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TurboKoo View Post
    SRAM has 3,65mm spacing and new XTR uses 3,5mm spacing so no compatibility.
    I find this suspect.

    We already know that the 10-45 11 speed version is cross compatible with 12 speed and is, apparently, compatible with current 11 speed stuff. The 11 and 12 speed SRAM gear is cross compatible as well. It is quite certain that the 12 speed should be cross compatible between both brands.

    And even if formally it isn't, the spacing is so goddamn close, that it is going to work none-theless.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Ok, so to summarize your statement:

    You don't like E13 cassettes.

    You don't understand why the shimano-compatible cassette body gets heavily scored on the outside edge (away from the center).
    He is right tho, on the XD driver. Its only strength is being first to market, other then that the "micro-spline" is a better design if we desire to get the sub-11 top cog.

    How much of a failure XD really is is best exemplified by the fact, that it is married to the monolithic cassette design of the XX1 and even SRAM failed to trickle it down to the bottomest equipment tiers. This new 'microspline' can be easily adopted even to a 'stack-of-stamped-cogs' cassettes that abound low end groups.

  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by uzurpator View Post
    The 11 and 12 speed SRAM gear is cross compatible as well.
    Don't think so. Maybe it will work, but the spacing is not the same. https://sram.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/se...54-SRAM-Eagle-

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Ok, so to summarize your statement:

    You don't like E13 cassettes.

    You don't understand why the shimano-compatible cassette body gets heavily scored on the outside edge (away from the center).

    You have trouble installing parts.

    All you want to know about shimano brakes can be found here:

    Frankenbrakes and brake improvement discussion | Ridemonkey Forums
    Nice try guy. If you don't have a rebuttal with any real points to make, just say so or let it go.

    I don't care about e*thirteen cassettes other than as a curious observer, I don't use them and have yet had no desire to, I think it is fine that they are offering some alternative cassettes for people that do need them. But it's pretty obvious that making XD work has been a bit of a trial for them, and it is all because of the fundamental weakness of the XD design. I am a Garbaruk customer and they make their cassettes in a similar fashion to SRAM, machined from a steel billet. They make versions for both Shimano and XD freehubs. The Shimano ones are cheaper and lighter for otherwise very similar 11 speed cassettes, and much simpler to install. All because of the quirks of XD. SRAM's own cassettes could be made simpler, cheaper and lighter for Micro-Spline, maybe they should talk to Shimano about that?

    Just because you can't properly describe technical issues doesn't mean I can't understand them. Traditional cassette bodies are a decades old technology and no Shimano freehub body has ever suffered notching from a cog. If aftermarket hubs use aluminum to save weight and it doesn't withstand the individual cassette cogs, that isn't Shimano's fault. I don't choose hubs with vulnerable bodies, but the ones I have worked on are still serviceable, it is just a little more work to get the cassette off and you have to dress the notches a bit. It's a calculated compromise for weight savings, like many things on a bike. The new design is an evolution of the old and Shimano chose to update the splines to a design that works better using aluminum. That is a good thing, it's how the process is supposed to work.

    No worries, I don't have any trouble installing these parts. But I see and have heard many complaints about XD cassette installs. There are plenty in the forums. They are finicky to install and plenty of amatuer home mechanics and even some bike shop guys have had issues with XD. The cost for these mistakes can be high indeed. XD won't get a pass any more for being the only game in town.

    Thanks for the link, I'm good. I'll be sure to find somebody that doesn't have so much trouble with them if I need help with any of my Shimano brakes that never seem to give me any trouble. Knock on wood!

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    Is the 11 speed cassette just 12 speed cassette with largest cog removed to save weight? And not compatible with old 11 speed system?

    Anyway it was impressive work from Shimano - I think they really covered all needs of racers, even the integrated dropper lever.

  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velodonata View Post
    If it is as good as it looks, is should be all around significantly better than Eagle. And Shimano is one of those manufacturers whose products generally live up to their appearances. They had enough time to get it right, and they really needed to deliver.
    One thing I did not notice at first is the spacing of the cassette. Sram 1050 just added a 50 cog to the original 1042, obtaining a rather odd spacing. Starting from 28 it gets 4-4-6-8 teeth increments:

    10 12 14 16 18 21 24 28 32 36 42 50

    compare with Shimano that at the top has smooth 5-6-6-6 increments:

    10 12 14 16 18 21 24 28 33 39 45 51

    The 1045 is even smoother at 4-4-4-5

    10 12 14 16 18 21 24 28 32 36 40 45

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    Iím in the camp the biggest drawback of this XTR is the hub driver. And Shimano pretty much lied about not being able to use XD. Sram has made the XD open for all to use without fee. Itís about Shimano just not wanting to use anything from Sram. It would be better if they just said we came out with micro spline because we think it is better these reasons. If Shimano wants this group to do well, they need to offer up micro spline to everyone. It just feels like Shimano is going back to their old dick moves to third party companies from back in the 90ís.

    Since my GX Eagle generally works better than my XT 1x11 between my two bikes, and it costs less on OEM bikes, I just canít see even a XT level one bringing me back to the Shimano fold. The only downside is the extra cost of the cassette, but after having Shimano cassettes dig into and trash AL hub bodies for years, Iím Ok with an extra minimal cost. Besides, the move to one piece cassettes reduces the inevitable creaking Iíd get from Shimano multi piece cassettes.

    That said there is a lot of awesomeness to this group. The new brakes, the pedals, the crank, the dropper remote, the new derailleurs, all look great. Some of it may end up on my bike someday, just not the shifting bits unless it plays well with any XD cassettes.

    I think this article has some of the best fact checking:
    https://nsmb.com/articles/2019-shima...51-12spd-here/


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    Quote Originally Posted by Whambat View Post
    Iím in the camp the biggest drawback of this XTR is the hub driver. And Shimano pretty much lied about not being able to use XD. Sram has made the XD open for all to use without fee.
    This is only true for hub manufacturers. It encourages hub makers to offer xD drivers so that SRAM can sell more groupsets. They still hold their patent on the cassette side, and charge pretty steep licensing fees for anyone who wants to produce a cassette that interfaces with XD. Thats where they get you. So from Shimano's point of view, while they could freely produce hubs with an XD driver, they would still have to pay a license fee to produce cassettes. They were better off designing their own freehub from a financial stance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Whambat View Post
    Iím in the camp the biggest drawback of this XTR is the hub driver. And Shimano pretty much lied about not being able to use XD. Sram has made the XD open for all to use without fee. Itís about Shimano just not wanting to use anything from Sram. It would be better if they just said we came out with micro spline because we think it is better these reasons. If Shimano wants this group to do well, they need to offer up micro spline to everyone. It just feels like Shimano is going back to their old dick moves to third party companies from back in the 90ís.

    Since my GX Eagle generally works better than my XT 1x11 between my two bikes, and it costs less on OEM bikes, I just canít see even a XT level one bringing me back to the Shimano fold. The only downside is the extra cost of the cassette, but after having Shimano cassettes dig into and trash AL hub bodies for years, Iím Ok with an extra minimal cost. Besides, the move to one piece cassettes reduces the inevitable creaking Iíd get from Shimano multi piece cassettes.

    That said there is a lot of awesomeness to this group. The new brakes, the pedals, the crank, the dropper remote, the new derailleurs, all look great. Some of it may end up on my bike someday, just not the shifting bits unless it plays well with any XD cassettes.

    I think this article has some of the best fact checking:
    https://nsmb.com/articles/2019-shima...51-12spd-here/


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    How did they lie? They said that XD is not compatible with the way they build cassettes, which is true.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoTone View Post
    How did they lie? They said that XD is not compatible with the way they build cassettes, which is true.
    Hereís from the NSMB article and their fact checking:

    When the curtain was drawn back there were no gasps. Rumours of a 10-51 cassette were accurate and, as expected a brand new driver body makes way for a 10t smallest cog. Micro Spline is Shimanoís solution to the 10t problem and we were told there were other obstacles preventing adoption of the XD solution. Shimano doesnít produce a one piece cassette* and I was told it was unlikely Shimano would get permission to use SRAMís intellectual property.** SRAMís literature, quoted below, tells a different story. Redesigning the cassette would have been required, but that it seems to me that would be only slightly more than trivial for a company with Shimanoís manufacturing and engineering superiority. But perhaps there are intellectual property hurdles as well.

    *the cassette can have more than one piece using an XD driver, as evidenced by e*thirteenís solution, but once installed the pieces must attach and form a single unit because most of the length of an XD driver body is not splined.

    **"The XD compatible driver body design is an open standard available to any hub manufacturer interested in producing a driver body compatible with the XX1 10-42 11-speed cassette (or current Eagle cassettes - Ed.). This open standard allows hub manufacturer to design an XD compatible driver body that works with their own ratchet design.Ē From SRAM literature.

    My own thoughts: would the phrase ambiguity with the facts be more amicable?

    I honestly hope that either they offer an open license to any hub manufacturer for the new body soon or offer a 11-51 cassette that works with HG bodies. I really think they need to do one or the other, or both, to have a real chance for this to take back market share. I want them to succeed, really. Competition benefits us all. I donít want Shimano to just end up being that company that has really good brakes and pedals on otherwise Sram specíd bikes as they started to become.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Whambat View Post
    Hereís from the NSMB article and their fact checking:

    When the curtain was drawn back there were no gasps. Rumours of a 10-51 cassette were accurate and, as expected a brand new driver body makes way for a 10t smallest cog. Micro Spline is Shimanoís solution to the 10t problem and we were told there were other obstacles preventing adoption of the XD solution. Shimano doesnít produce a one piece cassette* and I was told it was unlikely Shimano would get permission to use SRAMís intellectual property.** SRAMís literature, quoted below, tells a different story. Redesigning the cassette would have been required, but that it seems to me that would be only slightly more than trivial for a company with Shimanoís manufacturing and engineering superiority. But perhaps there are intellectual property hurdles as well.

    *the cassette can have more than one piece using an XD driver, as evidenced by e*thirteenís solution, but once installed the pieces must attach and form a single unit because most of the length of an XD driver body is not splined.

    **"The XD compatible driver body design is an open standard available to any hub manufacturer interested in producing a driver body compatible with the XX1 10-42 11-speed cassette (or current Eagle cassettes - Ed.). This open standard allows hub manufacturer to design an XD compatible driver body that works with their own ratchet design.Ē From SRAM literature.

    My own thoughts: would the phrase ambiguity with the facts be more amicable?

    I honestly hope that either they offer an open license to any hub manufacturer for the new body soon or offer a 11-51 cassette that works with HG bodies. I really think they need to do one or the other, or both, to have a real chance for this to take back market share. I want them to succeed, really. Competition benefits us all. I donít want Shimano to just end up being that company that has really good brakes and pedals on otherwise Sram specíd bikes as they started to become.
    I so how would the E-13 system work for a 3 piece unit?
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    The hyperglide type freehub is, what, 25 years old? The ratcheting mech stuffed inside the freehub is even older.

    Shimano fixed all the problems with both of them. I'm glad they improved on the XD design. XT level cassettes will continue to be $50.

    You'll still be able to buy cassettes for your older hyperglide hubs for the next 20 years. If shimano stops making them, someone else will step up.

    There are no downsides.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Schulze View Post
    The hyperglide type freehub is, what, 25 years old? The ratcheting mech stuffed inside the freehub is even older.

    Shimano fixed all the problems with both of them. I'm glad they improved on the XD design. XT level cassettes will continue to be $50.

    You'll still be able to buy cassettes for your older hyperglide hubs for the next 20 years. If shimano stops making them, someone else will step up.

    There are no downsides.
    It's not 2003 anymore. I highly doubt this will be the case. I'm not saying they'll be $300, but $50 was halo-time and you ordered a few at the same time because that didn't come around very often. Now with inflation? You are dreaming.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    It's not 2003 anymore. I highly doubt this will be the case. I'm not saying they'll be $300, but $50 was halo-time and you ordered a few at the same time because that didn't come around very often. Now with inflation? You are dreaming.
    You're splitting hairs here....

    XT cassettes retail for less than $100, and can easily be found for a third of the price of a comparable SRAM X1 cassette.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Whambat View Post
    Hereís from the NSMB article and their fact checking:

    When the curtain was drawn back there were no gasps. Rumours of a 10-51 cassette were accurate and, as expected a brand new driver body makes way for a 10t smallest cog. Micro Spline is Shimanoís solution to the 10t problem and we were told there were other obstacles preventing adoption of the XD solution. Shimano doesnít produce a one piece cassette* and I was told it was unlikely Shimano would get permission to use SRAMís intellectual property.** SRAMís literature, quoted below, tells a different story. Redesigning the cassette would have been required, but that it seems to me that would be only slightly more than trivial for a company with Shimanoís manufacturing and engineering superiority. But perhaps there are intellectual property hurdles as well.

    *the cassette can have more than one piece using an XD driver, as evidenced by e*thirteenís solution, but once installed the pieces must attach and form a single unit because most of the length of an XD driver body is not splined.

    **"The XD compatible driver body design is an open standard available to any hub manufacturer interested in producing a driver body compatible with the XX1 10-42 11-speed cassette (or current Eagle cassettes - Ed.). This open standard allows hub manufacturer to design an XD compatible driver body that works with their own ratchet design.Ē From SRAM literature.

    My own thoughts: would the phrase ambiguity with the facts be more amicable?

    I honestly hope that either they offer an open license to any hub manufacturer for the new body soon or offer a 11-51 cassette that works with HG bodies. I really think they need to do one or the other, or both, to have a real chance for this to take back market share. I want them to succeed, really. Competition benefits us all. I donít want Shimano to just end up being that company that has really good brakes and pedals on otherwise Sram specíd bikes as they started to become.
    There's already 11-50 cassettes for HG freehub bodies. 1 more tooth isn't going to matter

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    Quote Originally Posted by RAKC Ind View Post
    There's already 11-50 cassettes for HG freehub bodies. 1 more tooth isn't going to matter

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
    So right, it will not matter. However, when it arrives in Di2, I am a customer just cause I need to keep it fresh. When you get above 60, riding almost everyday will keep us alive a lot longer. So the latest tech just makes it even more fun which equals more miles ridden harder.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pedalon2018 View Post
    So right, it will not matter. However, when it arrives in Di2, I am a customer just cause I need to keep it fresh. When you get above 60, riding almost everyday will keep us alive a lot longer. So the latest tech just makes it even more fun which equals more miles ridden harder.
    Yeap. New stuff does add more fun because it adds something different.

    Now 10-51 or DI2 ya that's new, but the HG cassette thing is already out, not sure that's worth writing home about. But after all my riding the last 3 days, an extra 4 teeth (50t vs current 46t) would have been welcome the second half of today's ride. Lots of redlining the heart rate lol.

    DI2 is one of those "some day but I really want it" things. Shimano doing 12 speed, yes please once we see XT level.

    But now begs the question, 50T (and now 51t) is exceeding the limits of chains and drivetrains with the cutrent

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pedalon2018 View Post
    So right, it will not matter. However, when it arrives in Di2, I am a customer just cause I need to keep it fresh. When you get above 60, riding almost everyday will keep us alive a lot longer. So the latest tech just makes it even more fun which equals more miles ridden harder.
    Ok Tapatalk being weird. Can't delete

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  71. #71
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    I bet shimano is working on a wireless electronic shifting system to replace Di2, just a total guess of course.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAKC Ind View Post
    Now 10-51 or DI2 ya that's new, but the HG cassette thing is already out, not sure that's worth writing home about.
    HG and HG+ are different. Very different. Did you not read about how they made it so the chain remains engaged throughout the shift, splitting engagement between the two cogs, allowing for shifting under power? Imagine no more hard clunk, no more possibility of slipping... is this not a very notable feature worth mentioning? Shimano claims it's the heart of their new drivetrain's innovations. It was explained that it offered HG ramping in both directions (I assume it was only in the downshift/climbing direction before).

    https://bikerumor.com/2018/05/25/201...es-everything/

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    Quote Originally Posted by karmaphi View Post
    HG and HG+ are different. Very different. Did you not read about how they made it so the chain remains engaged throughout the shift, splitting engagement between the two cogs, allowing for shifting under power? Imagine no more hard clunk, no more possibility of slipping... is this not a very notable feature worth mentioning? Shimano claims it's the heart of their new drivetrain's innovations. It was explained that it offered HG ramping in both directions (I assume it was only in the downshift/climbing direction before).

    https://bikerumor.com/2018/05/25/201...es-everything/
    I was referring to an 11-50 cassette that fits normal freehubs which was all I thought he was referring too.

    I have to re-read the details, I was at a family get together today after riding in 90F heat and drinking beer not water once I arrived. So parts of the day are missing some details, hehe

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    I can't believe they stuck with 24mm spindles when it's clear that 28.99mm spindles are superior.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RAKC Ind View Post
    There's already 11-50 cassettes for HG freehub bodies. 1 more tooth isn't going to matter

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    It's not so much the 1 tooth on the big ring that matters. It's the one they took off the smallest.

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    Quote Originally Posted by noapathy View Post
    It's not so much the 1 tooth on the big ring that matters. It's the one they took off the smallest.
    You didn't read what I was responding to, asking about an 11-51 for standard current Shimano freehubs.

    But ya the new standard like SRAM offers. 10t cog now which widens range more than what 11s offers.

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  77. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAKC Ind View Post
    You didn't read what I was responding to, asking about an 11-51 for standard current Shimano freehubs.

    But ya the new standard like SRAM offers. 10t cog now which widens range more than what 11s offers.
    That's what I get for skimming.

    As far as range goes, I can't see much more range increase without a front derailleur (not likely) or internal gearing. Not that I'm in a huge hurry... honestly I'm happy enough with 10spd and have enough spare parts to keep me running for quite some time.

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    2018 Shimano XTR 12-speed

    321g for the rear j-bend hub canít be right. Perhaps 231g?

    http://reviews.mtbr.com/new-shimano-...edals-and-more

    It doesnít say if the wide flange hub is available in both j-bend and straight pull.

    The 11 speed option would be great for weight weenies. Fast engagement, Shimano durability and superior bracing angle, all for a weight that is comparable to all but the lightest of hubs.

    It would be interesting to see what the spoke tension percentage will be.

    10-45 x 28T would yield a better range both at the high and low end than the current XT 11-46 x 30T. Which is strange why a 28T chainring is not offered.

    The chamfered inner plate might suggest that current aftermarket narrow wide chainrings might be too wide to fit the new chain.

  79. #79
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    Yes, it's 231g.

    Only J-bend for the 11s version, the weight is listed as 228g

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    https://www.bike-discount.de/en/buy/...assette-740329

    291 eur, exactly the same as Eagle cassette then, available at least in 6 weeks according to bikediscount

  81. #81
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    It was certainly only a matter of time and they are there. I'm sure it will work great but too late for me, I like my Eagle XO1 and Guide Brakes. The hub standard looks interesting. Shimano stuff is always super-precise and appliance like....the Toyota Camry of drivetrains but I prefer the push-push and more positive feel of Sram. I like the variety Shimano is offering in terms of ranges, certainly curious to try it but again, sticking with the Eagle!
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  82. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by GuitsBoy View Post
    Shimano cassettes have fully folded on me, but then again so have expensive e-13, cheap sunrace, and practically every other cassette out there.
    Wow! The cogs folded? I've never heard of such a thing in my 40+ years of cycling.

    Surely you have some pictures. Please share.

  83. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by 410sprint View Post
    Wow! The cogs folded? I've never heard of such a thing in my 40+ years of cycling.

    I've seen sram cogs bent/folded but never on a shimano.
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  84. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by 410sprint View Post
    Wow! The cogs folded? I've never heard of such a thing in my 40+ years of cycling.

    Surely you have some pictures. Please share.
    I realize this is a shimano thread, however I cant seem to find my 11-42 10 and 11 speed carnage pics. However the failure method is the same as this e*13 and sunrace cog. In fact, the shimano xt cassettes were folded worse. Hopefully I can find them when I have more time.

    2018 Shimano XTR 12-speed-bent_cog1.jpg2018 Shimano XTR 12-speed-bent_cog0.jpg2018 Shimano XTR 12-speed-20160926_190818.jpg2018 Shimano XTR 12-speed-20160926_190744.jpg

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    Folded over cassettes isnt an easy thing to do. I'm 275lbs and hammer the hell out of things, only cassette cog I've EVER folded was because of a bad shift while mashing. Though I've never ran Sram eagle I do have sunrace cassettes. Folding them as much as above is hard not to question really bad shifting habits because that's the only way you can bend them like that I can think of unless it's running a big front ring and mashing all the time. But on a 30 or 32 I haven't managed that yet.

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  86. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAKC Ind View Post
    Folding them as much as above is hard not to question really bad shifting habits because that's the only way you can bend them like that.
    Everyone is always very quick to blame shifting habits, and I guess I can understand where youre all coming from. However I can tell you with 100% certainty every cassette I have folded over has happened without any shifting at all. Its simply a function of traction, chainline and out of the saddle mashing. No shifting. Some times you can feel as soon as it folds over, as the pedal stroke feels soft. Other times its more mild, and you dont notice until the bottom few gears start ghost shifting all of a sudden.

    Whats more, if this was indeed due to a misshift, it would more likely be a single snaggled tooth, or broken tooth as the chain is pulled at a sharp angle from one cog to the next. As you can see thats not the case here, as theyre all bent over smoothly.

    I'm surprised so many people question this, there's been plenty of posts about bent big cogs here in the drivetrain forum.

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    The advantage of Shimano in that case is that you can replace that part of the cassette.

    Which cassette has a red spider and spacers?

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    Quote Originally Posted by GuitsBoy View Post
    Everyone is always very quick to blame shifting habits, and I guess I can understand where youre all coming from. However I can tell you with 100% certainty every cassette I have folded over has happened without any shifting at all. Its simply a function of traction, chainline and out of the saddle mashing. No shifting. Some times you can feel as soon as it folds over, as the pedal stroke feels soft. Other times its more mild, and you dont notice until the bottom few gears start ghost shifting all of a sudden.

    Whats more, if this was indeed due to a misshift, it would more likely be a single snaggled tooth, or broken tooth as the chain is pulled at a sharp angle from one cog to the next. As you can see thats not the case here, as theyre all bent over smoothly.

    I'm surprised so many people question this, there's been plenty of posts about bent big cogs here in the drivetrain forum.
    Ya I corrected my post while you were reading that, I could see taller rings and mashing with chainlines causing issues but I would have expected more than just a few teeth or so to fold in that case. Looked more like partial chain engagement when mashing starts. But until my phat a$$ manages to do what you've done I won't fully understand.

    The ones I've seen have been on ultralight cassettes, more mid range cassettes isnt something I expected many beyond serious power houses (maybe you are one which would explain things).

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  89. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAKC Ind View Post
    Ya I corrected my post while you were reading that, I could see taller rings and mashing with chainlines causing issues but I would have expected more than just a few teeth or so to fold in that case. Looked more like partial chain engagement when mashing starts. But until my phat a$$ manages to do what you've done I won't fully understand.

    The ones I've seen have been on ultralight cassettes, more mid range cassettes isnt something I expected many beyond serious power houses (maybe you are one which would explain things).

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    I have seen smaller guys do this too. Oddly, it seems mashers that ride flats are more prone, but Im pulling from a very small sample size. I'm only a mid level rider overall, but I can recruit a lot of torque over short distances, which is what seems to shred parts. The shimano cassettes were indeed folded over a larger number of teeth than the other cassettes I pictured. I dont know if that means they were stronger or weaker, but both were bent while on the fatbike. Keep in mind, I break freehubs and chains on the reg as well. Ive had two sram eagle GX chains pull apart in under 200 miles, so that's my next gripe.

  90. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by GuitsBoy View Post
    I have seen smaller guys do this too. Oddly, it seems mashers that ride flats are more prone, but Im pulling from a very small sample size. I'm only a mid level rider overall, but I can recruit a lot of torque over short distances, which is what seems to shred parts. The shimano cassettes were indeed folded over a larger number of teeth than the other cassettes I pictured. I dont know if that means they were stronger or weaker, but both were bent while on the fatbike. Keep in mind, I break freehubs and chains on the reg as well. Ive had two sram eagle GX chains pull apart in under 200 miles, so that's my next gripe.
    Going further off-topic here, but have you ever thought about trying an Onyx Racing hub? Maybe the soft engagement and spring-winding-up action of the sprags under extreme torque could work to your advantage and save those component failures? It just makes for nice soft yet instant engagement normally, but for you it would be a bulletproof hub that could also act as a driveline torque peak smoother with no net loss of energy and probably less rolling resistance than what you are on now. Costly, but maybe not in the long run.

  91. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by richde View Post
    Which cassette has a red spider and spacers?
    Sunrace makes versions of their cassettes with red spiders and spacers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Velodonata View Post
    Sunrace makes versions of their cassettes with red spiders and spacers.
    Ah, so don't buy sunrace cassettes and don't assume Shimano or SRAM cassettes are the same as sunrace.

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    Quote Originally Posted by richde View Post
    Ah, so don't buy sunrace cassettes and don't assume Shimano or SRAM cassettes are the same as sunrace.
    Only if you're in that tiny group of abnormally strong and/or destructive riders. Otherwise, no worries. I've been running an 11-40 Sunrace for over a year now and it's been just as good as the XT/SLX stuff.

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    Quote Originally Posted by richde View Post
    Ah, so don't buy sunrace cassettes and don't assume Shimano or SRAM cassettes are the same as sunrace.
    I'm 275lbs and can mash in things fairly hard NEVER damaged a sunrace cassette and have 2 on 2 different bikes. Many, many people ride sunrace with no problems. If your going to cause a sunrace cassette to fail Shimano and sram will fail as well.

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  95. #95
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    This is the last cassette problem I've had (almost exactly 2 yrs ago):

    2018 Shimano XTR 12-speed-01109469d0506b97ac803f15da60382a73e8d430b3.jpg

    2018 Shimano XTR 12-speed-0175a30faa8c2d884420a60f1ffa5903f505fb3be9.jpg

    2018 Shimano XTR 12-speed-01f90cdc58f8aebeed2cb83825c5a77561ee6c78cc.jpg
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  96. #96
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    New standard is good if it improves the existing one.

    This freehub is an improvement. Allows cheaper cassettes in parts, hybrid cassettes for more optimal weight/wear. Many more splines to carry the torque of the bigger cogs, and spread the load of individual cogs so they don't chip the freehub as quickly. All improvements.

    New ispec, if it offers more adjustment range, why not?

    You guys think that you should judge the group whether it fits an old bike. That's the last thing a manufacturer cares about. It's about new bike sales. They don't design next year's group for last year's bikes.

    When XT/SLX/Deore come out in this configuration srams dominance on drivetrain will be history, unless they continues their well known "OEM pricing".

    What this means for you, that competition drives prices down, now there is competition. You should be happy even if you are a sram fan.

    One thing that is for sure bad for consumers is monopoly. Sram monopoly is over.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CrozCountry View Post
    New standard is good if it improves the existing one.

    This freehub is an improvement. Allows cheaper cassettes in parts, hybrid cassettes for more optimal weight/wear. Many more splines to carry the torque of the bigger cogs, and spread the load of individual cogs so they don't chip the freehub as quickly. All improvements.

    New ispec, if it offers more adjustment range, why not?

    You guys think that you should judge the group whether it fits an old bike. That's the last thing a manufacturer cares about. It's about new bike sales. They don't design next year's group for last year's bikes.

    When XT/SLX/Deore come out in this configuration srams dominance on drivetrain will be history, unless they continues their well known "OEM pricing".

    What this means for you, that competition drives prices down, now there is competition. You should be happy even if you are a sram fan.

    One thing that is for sure bad for consumers is monopoly. Sram monopoly is over.
    The simple answer: Because marginal improvements screw people over more than they improve the riding experience.
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  98. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    The simple answer: Because marginal improvements screw people over more than they improve the riding experience.
    Disagree, marginal gains are the reasons we have such great bikes today. Old tech is still available for those who want it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velodonata View Post
    Going further off-topic here, but have you ever thought about trying an Onyx Racing hub? Maybe the soft engagement and spring-winding-up action of the sprags under extreme torque could work to your advantage and save those component failures? It just makes for nice soft yet instant engagement normally, but for you it would be a bulletproof hub that could also act as a driveline torque peak smoother with no net loss of energy and probably less rolling resistance than what you are on now. Costly, but maybe not in the long run.
    Thats an interesting concept. A good friend of mine rides onyx and what your saying about the sprag clutch does make sense, as it may eliminate the initial shock to the drivetrain. Historically, I have bent more cassettes on the fatbike, which I chalked up to the extra traction. However a compounding issue might be the fact that my cheap hubs use a standard shimano freehub with only 18 points of engagement. With the added rotation of the cranks before the pawls catch, the resulting shock may be adding stress to the mix.

    Sorry for all the off-topic conversation. I'll certainly be watching to see how the durability is on these things, particularly once it trickles down to XT.

  100. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    The simple answer: Because marginal improvements screw people over more than they improve the riding experience.
    not really, people don't need to buy if it's not compatible with whatever current bike they have. there is still plenty of stuff available that work with old standards, even 26" tires are available all over the place!

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