2018 Shimano XTR 12-speed- Mtbr.com
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    Word! Was hoping it would fit standard freehub bodies, but SRAM started their own system to accommodate their 12 speed system...so that shouldn't be much of a whining point. The fact that overall as a group, it will be lighter and less expensive makes me happy...but I'm definitely waiting until 2019 for the XT version.

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    If it is as good as it looks, is should be all around significantly better than Eagle. And Shimano is one of those manufacturers whose products generally live up to their appearances. They had enough time to get it right, and they really needed to deliver.

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    Cant wait to fold one of those cassettes into a taco. I've already bent 10 and 11 speed XT, and I cant see this being any stronger. Also, claiming it's 10% wider range is a bit misleading. Its only 2% wider as compared to eagle. And introducing new standards for both freehubs and presumably direct mount chainrings, uggh.

    I know SRAM stuff certainly isnt perfect. Some of it is so heavy its downright piggish. But I'm pretty underwhelmed by this new shimano stuff. But who knows, maybe they made those cassettes out of pure unobtanium than wont fold faster than superman on laundry day.

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    Sounds all good till I got to the part about the new hub standard. yuck. Not going to say it is better or worse then XD, but it now means 3 standards floating around. Not good.


    Is there any listing of the ratios on the 11spd 10-45 and 12spd 10-45 and 10-51 cassettes?

    The 11-46 was always a good range, but I hated the jump to the 46t. Seems like too big of a gap. I wonder what these new ones are. Visually they look more uniform.
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    The group looks sick. But it feel too little too late - especially since they don't have an answer for GX Eagle with XT and/or SLX groupo. Too much leap of faith for both OEMs and consumers to swap out everything for yet another standard.

    The the top end Treks and S-Works will adopt XTR to differentiate, but I see less incentive for smaller OEMs as I doubt the sell much XX1 builds today anyway.

    SRAM will likely answer with a "yawn" closer space cassette for the SoulCycle spinners out there. But otherwise, I don't think they're much concerned about this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GuitsBoy View Post
    Cant wait to fold one of those cassettes into a taco. I've already bent 10 and 11 speed XT, and I cant see this being any stronger. Also, claiming it's 10% wider range is a bit misleading. Its only 2% wider as compared to eagle. And introducing new standards for both freehubs and presumably direct mount chainrings, uggh.

    I know SRAM stuff certainly isnt perfect. Some of it is so heavy its downright piggish. But I'm pretty underwhelmed by this new shimano stuff. But who knows, maybe they made those cassettes out of pure unobtanium than wont fold faster than superman on laundry day.
    Missing the point though... More range, less weight, less $$$. Only a SRAM fanboi would think it's a bad idea unless they're invested in something besides DT to swap the freehub. On a new complete build... Why not get more for less assuming the performance is on par or even better than SRAM?

    Granted, I'd rather see them stick with the normal Shimano freehub and lose the 10t. Just run a new 11-51 on the normal freehub spline... But whatever. I think it will be fine, and you know Hope Et Al will make a freehub for them.

    They've already eluded to the XT release.

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    It looks great and undoubtedly will work very well.

    The dealbreaker for me is the new hub, and the fact that apparently it'll only be licensed to DT Swiss, so you'll need DT or Shimano hubs. This seems like a real error on Shimano's part; if you're introducing a new standard shouldn't' you try to get it in as many hands as possible? Make it an open design so all hub makers can offer conversion freehubs? No way I'm tossing or rebuilding my really nice I9-hubbed wheels for this.

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    I, for one, am looking forward to 12spd being semi-affordable (XT). SRAM can go pound sand with their prices.
    :nono: :thumbsup:

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    I'm quite happy with 11sp to be quite honest.

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    I run DT Swiss hubs, but I'm going to keep using X01 Eagle cassettes with this new XTR 12 shifter and soon-to-follow XT rear derailleur. All my 11sp bikes have SRAM X01 10-42 cassettes with XTR triggers and SLX derailleurs (after years of XTR derailleurs....no difference other than 45 grams). I like Eagle, but my XTR 11 speed with its multi-shift lever is hands-down the favorite.

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    And since I went 11-42 and 28t offset granny position on my 180mm XT crankset...I don't need anymore gears.

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    Love that new hub. 47 pts engagement, quiet, lighter, and the non series is the same thing but $100 less. Ditching the need for titanium will drive down the cost and the new freehub will be more durable.

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    Huh?!

    No Super Boost hubs? Pivot is going all in on 157mm and now Shimano rolls out their flagship group without it?

    2018 Shimano XTR 12-speed-facepalm-newspaper.jpg

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    another ispec standard is just what we need

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    Who thought it was a good idea to make the top 3 cassette cogs alloy! TBH The shifter and mech mated to a eagle cassette might be the best setup.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chelboed View Post
    Missing the point though... More range, less weight, less $$$. Only a SRAM fanboi would think it's a bad idea unless they're invested in something besides DT to swap the freehub. On a new complete build... Why not get more for less assuming the performance is on par or even better than SRAM?

    Granted, I'd rather see them stick with the normal Shimano freehub and lose the 10t. Just run a new 11-51 on the normal freehub spline... But whatever. I think it will be fine, and you know Hope Et Al will make a freehub for them.

    They've already eluded to the XT release.
    I feel that youve missed my point. I have a history of folding shimano cassettes with torque alone (not shifting). A 51t cog made of alloy, a such a light weight is a prime contender to get bent almost immediately. That is my concern. What good is performance is the parts are not durable. The range is negligible in difference (Its a 2% not 10% difference). Price remains to be seen.

    So am I to assume that ANYONE who does not run Shimano and DT Swiss is a SRAM fanboi now? Fanboy or not, their cassettes have proven far more durable for me.

    And doing away with the new freehub and keeping this 11-50 does away with the core reason they developed this in the first place. They needed a new freehub to be competitive IMO.

    I'm sure other brands will adopt the new standard, but seeing how even the DT240s cant be converted, many other brands may find their hub shells incompatible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GuitsBoy View Post
    (...) but seeing how even the DT240s cant be converted, many other brands may find their hub shells incompatible.
    Where did you get that information?
    This doesn't only mean a new free hub body if you want to change systems, this would also mean a new hub.

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    About mid way through the MTBR article.

    Murdick also pointed out that DT makes some hubs (both in house and for others) such as the top-of-the-line 240s where freehub body modification is not possible, and thus wonít work with Micro-Spline.

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    This doesn't mean we can't replace the freehub body with the new Hiperglyde +. My interpretation is that the current ones can't be adapted, in the same sense we can't adapt a Hiperglyde body to a XD body, but we can replace it.
    But I can be wrong .

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    I think thats exactly what that means. The new freehub wont fit the existing hub shells. Hyperglide+ is the chain mesh and shift ramp technology, its not the freehub spline. The freehub spline is what hey call micro-spline.

    Here's an expanded quote from the article:

    DT Swiss also makes wheels for lots of other people (remember the Roval example) and Murdick believes that in most instances, those hubs will be okay, too. ďBut there is not a guarantee that it will be upgradable to the new freehub body,Ē he conceded. ďThe issue is that the hub shell could touch if it hangs out over the free body, because [with the new Micro-Spline system] we do take up just a little bit more space. So yes, there could be a case where a wheel [with DT Swiss made hubs] is not upgradeable. But I think those will be pretty rare.Ē Letís hope soÖ

    Murdick also pointed out that DT makes some hubs (both in house and for others) such as the top-of-the-line 240s where freehub body modification is not possible, and thus wonít work with Micro-Spline. And no, you cannot upgrade existing Shimano hubs.

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    That seems a really bad excuse to sell new hubs. I have a DT 240s and a DT 350 and there's is no way that the hub shell protrude from the flange more than the new XTR, you can easily compare pictures from both hubs and see that this is true.
    I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm just calling BS on them.
    Thanks for correcting me regarding the Hyperglide, I always thought the term also applied to the freehub, we learn something every day

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    Quote Originally Posted by GuitsBoy View Post
    I have a history of folding shimano cassettes with torque alone (not shifting).

    Is that common? I've been through lots of Shimano 10 speed cassettes with zero problems and haven't seen or heard of any issues here or elsewhere. No experience with their 11-speed yet.

    Conversely I've seen a ton of broken and folded cogs on sram wide range cassettes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aglo View Post
    Thanks for correcting me regarding the Hyperglide, I always thought the term also applied to the freehub, we learn something every day
    In the past, hyperglide did describe the freehub splines, however in this case, i think they went with microspline to make sure there would be no confusion between hyperglide and hyperglide+.

    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Is that common? I've been through lots of Shimano 10 speed cassettes with zero problems and haven't seen or heard of any issues here or elsewhere. No experience with their 11-speed yet.

    Conversely I've seen a ton of broken and folded cogs on sram wide range cassettes.
    The SRAM cassettes do indeed have some issues with chipped teeth, though I think that may be due to powershifting. I havent seen many issues with folding compared to all the chipped teeth out there. Im lucky to have never run into that. I have only ever slightly bent an XG-1150 cassette, never a full taco. Shimano cassettes have fully folded on me, but then again so have expensive e-13, cheap sunrace, and practically every other cassette out there. Its a function of extreme chainlines, clydeness, fatb/plus bike traction, and furious mashing. Something's bound to break under the abuse, and on occasion its the cassette's big cog folding over.

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    New i-spec mount (for the 4th time!), new hub/cassette standard that isn't XD, brakes don't appear to have solved the eventual failure mode that all shimano brakes suffer from and they still won't sell you seal kits. This makes the choice easy for me. Pedals and chains is all I'll buy from them anymore.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    New i-spec mount (for the 4th time!), new hub/cassette standard that isn't XD, brakes don't appear to have solved the eventual failure mode that all shimano brakes suffer from and they still won't sell you seal kits. This makes the choice easy for me. Pedals and chains is all I'll buy from them anymore.
    The I-Spec thing is getting a bit crazy, but there seems to be a legit reason behind why they changed it, related to stiffening the lever mounting, so as long as there is a real improvement I am OK with it. The new freehub looks to be clearly superior to XD, and a requirement for how Shimano has always made their cassettes. Now that they are weight competitive with SRAM, it makes even more sense. I guess I have been lucky with brakes because I can't seem to kill Shimano wet brakes, at any level or vintage. It's funny, the main SRAM thing I did use was chains, it looks like there is a pretty good chance I will be going back to Shimano.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Velodonata View Post
    The I-Spec thing is getting a bit crazy, but there seems to be a legit reason behind why they changed it, related to stiffening the lever mounting, so as long as there is a real improvement I am OK with it. The new freehub looks to be clearly superior to XD, and a requirement for how Shimano has always made their cassettes. Now that they are weight competitive with SRAM, it makes even more sense. I guess I have been lucky with brakes because I can't seem to kill Shimano wet brakes, at any level or vintage. It's funny, the main SRAM thing I did use was chains, it looks like there is a pretty good chance I will be going back to Shimano.
    The new free hub is clearly superior to XD? Please explain.

    My shimano brakes usually blow the seals after a couple years, but as little as one.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aglo View Post
    Where did you get that information?
    This doesn't only mean a new free hub body if you want to change systems, this would also mean a new hub.
    Nope. It looks like free hubs will be available as they are now for HD and the venerable Shimano standard https://bikerumor.com/2018/05/26/dt-...omment-3227644

    2018 Shimano XTR 12-speed-img_1266.jpg

    Personally I think this new group is fantastic, 1x done right especially with the great additional options of 1045 and 1045 11 speed (acknowledging that 11 is enough when paired with a reduced range cassette even in competition). Plus a serious spline interface (my HD splines are dented after 6 months of use), two or four piston caliper for enduro, convertible shifter 12 to 11, and ...

    SILENT HUBS! Finally! no more machine gun ta-ta-ta-ta-ta-ta when coasting!

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    Quote Originally Posted by GuitsBoy View Post
    ...I have a history of folding shimano cassettes with torque alone (not shifting). A 51t cog made of alloy, a such a light weight is a prime contender to get bent almost immediately. That is my concern. What good is performance is the parts are not durable. The range is negligible in difference (Its a 2% not 10% difference). Price remains to be seen.

    So am I to assume that ANYONE who does not run Shimano and DT Swiss is a SRAM fanboi now? Fanboy or not, their cassettes have proven far more durable for me...
    You must be a gorilla, haha. I've never folded any cogs in few decades of riding. Never seen any gorilla quads on the YDF or Works Cup food a cig either. You're missing your can't if you're saying your monsterly string enough to fold cogs with your bodacious man quads regularly enough to steer clear of certain to end equipment designed to withstand such things.

    Regarding you being a SRAM fanboi...I call em as I see em. It's not a sin to be A SRAM fanboi. I'm an XT fanboi. They've always produced what I've needed. I like the group and have never give a reason not to. The only difference is you're implying that you're in denial about it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    The new free hub is clearly superior to XD? Please explain.

    My shimano brakes usually blow the seals after a couple years, but as little as one.
    XD requires an oddball cassette design because the locating features and threads are way down towards the base. It can be difficult to torque correctly and it leaves a bearing sticking half out the end. So if you are SRAM with a unique way of milling uber-expensive cassettes and you want to make sure Shimano can't use your "open" design without jumping through hoops, it's great. But it was never going to work for Shimano, and the new Shimano design is more adaptable to various methods of manufacturing a cassette and requires a very basic lockring similar to what everybody but SRAM has been using for decades.

    You probably run your brakes harder than me, I have sets of very old Shimano brakes that still work but I just upgraded to newer ones anyway. I have tossed Avid/SRAM brakes in the trash out of annoyance but the only non-functional Shimano caliper I have was bought and taken apart to be used as a buck for brake mount mods. I know SRAM has upped their game but I have had no reason to try them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aglo View Post
    This doesn't mean we can't replace the freehub body with the new Hiperglyde +. My interpretation is that the current ones can't be adapted, in the same sense we can't adapt a Hiperglyde body to a XD body, but we can replace it.
    But I can be wrong .
    It loos like you are right! 2018 Shimano XTR 12-speed-img_1266.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by Davide View Post
    It looks like free hubs will be available as they are now for HD and the venerable Shimano standard
    Yes, and when pictures of the DT version freehub by itself are already popping up, that's a good sign for upgrades to existing hubs.

    It sounds like upgrade compatibility will be on a case by case basis, since there are minor dimensional differences between the new and old.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chelboed View Post
    You must be a gorilla, haha. I've never folded any cogs in few decades of riding. Never seen any gorilla quads on the YDF or Works Cup food a cig either. You're missing your can't if you're saying your monsterly string enough to fold cogs with your bodacious man quads regularly enough to steer clear of certain to end equipment designed to withstand such things.

    Regarding you being a SRAM fanboi...I call em as I see em. It's not a sin to be A SRAM fanboi. I'm an XT fanboi. They've always produced what I've needed. I like the group and have never give a reason not to. The only difference is you're implying that you're in denial about it.
    Have all the fun you want, but the truth is, I'm a bit of a gymrat with a combined 1350 in the "big three". I break shit. I also ride trails with short punchy climbs, so I dont have to put out watts over long periods of time, which means I can burn myself out on a single climb. Couple that to fatbike and plus bike traction, and yes, I blow out freehubs, pull chains apart, and on occasion, fold a big cog over. It happens. And I'm sure I'm far from the only one that does this. The reason you dont see guys much faster and much stronger than me fold them over is because they have developed proper technique, and are not just mashing away with careless abandon. Doesn't mean I dont do what Im saying happens.

    I've given shimano drivetrain plenty of shots, and they always shift great. But with the advent of 36T and bigger cogs, the sram stuff is more durable for me. I still have shimano brakes on at least six bikes, so I'm not just a Shimano hater. Just sticking with what works for me.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by GuitsBoy View Post
    I feel that youve missed my point. I have a history of folding shimano cassettes with torque alone (not shifting). A 51t cog made of alloy, a such a light weight is a prime contender to get bent almost immediately. That is my concern.
    For the 160lb racers this group is meant for....this is not their concern.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Schulze View Post
    For the 160lb racers this group is meant for....this is not their concern.
    Why not? They're producing a lot of torque too.
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    Do you see anyone else complaining of "folding" a cassette cog? I've never even heard of that.

    We have one guy on the edge of the bell curve complaining. When you live on the edge....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Velodonata View Post
    The I-Spec thing is getting a bit crazy, but there seems to be a legit reason behind why they changed it, related to stiffening the lever mounting, so as long as there is a real improvement I am OK with it. The new freehub looks to be clearly superior to XD, and a requirement for how Shimano has always made their cassettes. Now that they are weight competitive with SRAM, it makes even more sense. I guess I have been lucky with brakes because I can't seem to kill Shimano wet brakes, at any level or vintage. It's funny, the main SRAM thing I did use was chains, it looks like there is a pretty good chance I will be going back to Shimano.
    XD driver seems to me to be better in every single way, care to tell me why its not? Also from I spec-A to I-spec 2 the shifter mounting became more flexy and the the brake mounting did as well as you were putting less lever on the bar.

    Also a XX1 cassette is still lighter despite been out on the market for 2 years!

    TBH it all seems like a farmer shutting the gate after the horse has bolted.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Schulze View Post
    Do you see anyone else complaining of "folding" a cassette cog? I've never even heard of that.
    I'm not complaining, since Ive obviously never used one. Im just voicing my concerns that considering the weight and my previous track record with shimano XT cassettes, I would be worried about bending cogs. And honestly, there been plenty of reports of guys much smaller than I that have bent all different brands of cassettes, sram included. I'm not a unique and special butterfly.

    Until we actually get some miles on these new clusters, and see how they actually ride, and how strong they are, it's all just a guessing game anyway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Draper View Post
    XD driver seems to me to be better in every single way, care to tell me why its not? Also from I spec-A to I-spec 2 the shifter mounting became more flexy and the the brake mounting did as well as you were putting less lever on the bar.

    Also a XX1 cassette is still lighter despite been out on the market for 2 years!

    TBH it all seems like a farmer shutting the gate after the horse has bolted.
    I already answered this earlier in this thread.

    http://forums.mtbr.com/drivetrain-sh...l#post13679299

    Please explain why you think XD is better in "every single way".

    Cassette weights are not getting much lower without the price going from high to ridiculous, they both ended up at the same place taking their own paths. I like the SRAM cassettes just fine, even with XD, but with the better selections, apparently but yet to be proven better shifting, and the new freehub, I will probably be running Shimano cassettes in the future.

    As to the I-spec thing, as I have said, the new version was needed because they wanted to make a beneficial change to their brake lever mounting. I have the M9000 Race brake levers on one of my bikes, and there is noticeable flex if you look at them as you squeeze them hard. I can't say I notice it when riding, but the new design will eliminate this flex, and the new I-spec also is more adjustable than the previous versions. Continuous improvements is the standard and desirable way of doing things, I really don't care about standards and long as there is improvement to be had for changing them.

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schulze View Post
    For the 160lb racers this group is meant for....this is not their concern.
    There has never really been any rider weight limit on XTR, since it was first introduced back in 1985.

    This is a group that will be on the top of the line $7,000-10000 range bikes. People will use the cross country XTR to race with it, they will use the enduro XTR to race with it, but most people will buy XTR for its performance and light weight and never see a starting line ...
    Last edited by Davide; 05-26-2018 at 06:15 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by noapathy View Post
    I, for one, am looking forward to 12spd being semi-affordable (XT). SRAM can go pound sand with their prices.
    Agree!
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    Quote Originally Posted by westin View Post
    I run DT Swiss hubs, but I'm going to keep using X01 Eagle cassettes with this new XTR 12 shifter and soon-to-follow XT rear derailleur. All my 11sp bikes have SRAM X01 10-42 cassettes with XTR triggers and SLX derailleurs (after years of XTR derailleurs....no difference other than 45 grams). I like Eagle, but my XTR 11 speed with its multi-shift lever is hands-down the favorite.
    Same plan, but......is anybody sure that the cog spacing is identical between Shimano and SRAM. It always has been, but who knows? I've seen no direct mention of this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velodonata View Post
    XD requires an oddball cassette design because the locating features and threads are way down towards the base. It can be difficult to torque correctly and it leaves a bearing sticking half out the end. So if you are SRAM with a unique way of milling uber-expensive cassettes and you want to make sure Shimano can't use your "open" design without jumping through hoops, it's great. But it was never going to work for Shimano, and the new Shimano design is more adaptable to various methods of manufacturing a cassette and requires a very basic lockring similar to what everybody but SRAM has been using for decades.

    You probably run your brakes harder than me, I have sets of very old Shimano brakes that still work but I just upgraded to newer ones anyway. I have tossed Avid/SRAM brakes in the trash out of annoyance but the only non-functional Shimano caliper I have was bought and taken apart to be used as a buck for brake mount mods. I know SRAM has upped their game but I have had no reason to try them.
    Well of course the threads and splines are way towards the base, thatís because itís a superior design. It doesnít try to apply torque over a long lever arm like shimano (which results in the scoring problem). To boot, itís lighter. Yes, SRAM figured out how to CNC lightweight cassettes out of steel, but we were taking about the XD driver specifically. Itís better, thatís all there is too it. Itís not an oddball driver/ cassette design anymore when you can buy several different manufacturers cassettes, like you can now. Wake up and smell the coffee. XD was a huge improvement over the traditional cassette interface.


    Did I mention SRAM brakes? No, just the flaws of shimano, they weep fluid if you let them set for a period of time and eventually they give out, average for me is about 2-3 yrs, that would be fine and dandy if they actually sold seal kits. Iíve warrantied xtr, had xt give out too.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davide View Post
    There has never been any rider weight limit on XTR, since it was first introduced back in 1985.

    This is a group that will be on the top of the line $7,000-10000 range bikes. People will use the cross country XTR to race with it, they will use the enduro XTR to race with it, but most people will buy XTR for its performance and light weight and never see a starting line ...
    And if they engineered it for the top .1% of riders it wouldn't be light enough for anyone to buy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Did I mention SRAM brakes? No, just the flaws of shimano, they weep fluid if you let them set for a period of time and eventually they give out, average for me is about 2-3 yrs, that would be fine and dandy if they actually sold seal kits. Iíve warrantied xtr, had xt give out too.
    Huge generalization based on your experience. Based on my experience Shimano brakes are flawless. Still have a pair of 4 Pot XTs from 2000 that have never been bled and still work as well as the day I put them on.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Well of course the threads and splines are way towards the base, thatís because itís a superior design. It doesnít try to apply torque over a long lever arm like shimano (which results in the scoring problem). To boot, itís lighter. Yes, SRAM figured out how to CNC lightweight cassettes out of steel, but we were taking about the XD driver specifically. Itís better, thatís all there is too it. Itís not an oddball driver/ cassette design anymore when you can buy several different manufacturers cassettes, like you can now. Wake up and smell the coffee. XD was a huge improvement over the traditional cassette interface.


    Did I mention SRAM brakes? No, just the flaws of shimano, they weep fluid if you let them set for a period of time and eventually they give out, average for me is about 2-3 yrs, that would be fine and dandy if they actually sold seal kits. Iíve warrantied xtr, had xt give out too.
    I hate to break this to you, but all the non-Sram XD cassettes on the market are compromised designs due to the XD driver. And it is not XD that makes SRAM cassettes good. I guarantee you that if there had been an open choice between XD or Micro-Spline, there would be zero takers for XD. The e*thirteen XD cassette is a freakshow that took multiple versions to get right, and Garbaruk has changed theirs to use a second lockring. The external locking threads requiring some sort of deep locking sleeve or other gimmick is far from the elegant simplicity of Shimano's freehubs. I don't know where you are trying to go with your talk of torque and lever arms, it's not going to score any points for XD either. Even the SRAM XD cassettes mount finicky compared to any Shimano cassette, nobody ever wondered if their XTR cassette was torqued correctly or ruined their cassette with a damaged sleeve. XD was OK when there was no other choice, but it's got nothing to offer over Micro-Spline going forward. I just hope Shimano doesn't keep it locked down.

    I don't know what to say about your brake problems, I'll say it again, I have a workshop full of Shimano brakes of various vintages and zero failures. I have put them on several friends bikes over the years with no complaints, either.

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    Wouldnít it be cool if the new XT comes out with an 12 speed 11-51 cassette, that fits on the old hubs! so those who wish to upgrade there old drivetrains can...
    And hopefully Shimano releases a NEW 11 speed Hyperglide cassette 11-45, for our existing Shimano 11 speed drivetrains.

    Personally I perfer Shimano
    Iíve never had much luck with SRAM, but obviously many do tho. Both the X01 12x and 11x systems have given me trouble, but the cheeper XTR 1x11 has been perfect, (except for when running it with the X01 cassette it wouldnít shift as sweet. But it was very good)

    This xtr is pretty much just for new build top of the line bikes ah.

    The bike industry is so waistfull.
    If the demand for a 10 tooth cog was so great, Surely the engineers at Shimano could have made a cheep light cassette for the XD free hub.

    My DT 240s are redundant anyhow as they are only 135. And bike frames donít use that standard anymore 🤔

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bay1 View Post
    Wouldnít it be cool if the new XT comes out with an 12 speed 11-51 cassette, that fits on the old hubs! so those who wish to upgrade there old drivetrains can..
    Ha! I just posted this thought on another forum. If XT requires Shimano or DT hubs, it's doomed, IMO, so 11-51 FTW!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velodonata View Post
    I hate to break this to you, but all the non-Sram XD cassettes on the market are compromised designs due to the XD driver. And it is not XD that makes SRAM cassettes good. I guarantee you that if there had been an open choice between XD or Micro-Spline, there would be zero takers for XD. The e*thirteen XD cassette is a freakshow that took multiple versions to get right, and Garbaruk has changed theirs to use a second lockring. The external locking threads requiring some sort of deep locking sleeve or other gimmick is far from the elegant simplicity of Shimano's freehubs. I don't know where you are trying to go with your talk of torque and lever arms, it's not going to score any points for XD either. Even the SRAM XD cassettes mount finicky compared to any Shimano cassette, nobody ever wondered if their XTR cassette was torqued correctly or ruined their cassette with a damaged sleeve. XD was OK when there was no other choice, but it's got nothing to offer over Micro-Spline going forward. I just hope Shimano doesn't keep it locked down.

    I don't know what to say about your brake problems, I'll say it again, I have a workshop full of Shimano brakes of various vintages and zero failures. I have put them on several friends bikes over the years with no complaints, either.
    Ok, so to summarize your statement:

    You don't like E13 cassettes.

    You don't understand why the shimano-compatible cassette body gets heavily scored on the outside edge (away from the center).

    You have trouble installing parts.

    All you want to know about shimano brakes can be found here:

    Frankenbrakes and brake improvement discussion | Ridemonkey Forums
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoTone View Post
    Huge generalization based on your experience. Based on my experience Shimano brakes are flawless. Still have a pair of 4 Pot XTs from 2000 that have never been bled and still work as well as the day I put them on.
    The 4-pots were a totally different brake and arguably better than the more recent stuff that is doomed to failure.

    I spoke with the shimano rep about this at my last race, he basically agreed with me about the terminal failure and stated that due to how they are mass-produced, they aren't interested in putting out any seal kits. That means you can't do a "refresh" after a season or two, to prevent an untimely failure. That is downright dangerous.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kosmo View Post
    Same plan, but......is anybody sure that the cog spacing is identical between Shimano and SRAM. It always has been, but who knows? I've seen no direct mention of this.
    SRAM has 3,65mm spacing and new XTR uses 3,5mm spacing so no compatibility.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TurboKoo View Post
    SRAM has 3,65mm spacing and new XTR uses 3,5mm spacing so no compatibility.
    I find this suspect.

    We already know that the 10-45 11 speed version is cross compatible with 12 speed and is, apparently, compatible with current 11 speed stuff. The 11 and 12 speed SRAM gear is cross compatible as well. It is quite certain that the 12 speed should be cross compatible between both brands.

    And even if formally it isn't, the spacing is so goddamn close, that it is going to work none-theless.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Ok, so to summarize your statement:

    You don't like E13 cassettes.

    You don't understand why the shimano-compatible cassette body gets heavily scored on the outside edge (away from the center).
    He is right tho, on the XD driver. Its only strength is being first to market, other then that the "micro-spline" is a better design if we desire to get the sub-11 top cog.

    How much of a failure XD really is is best exemplified by the fact, that it is married to the monolithic cassette design of the XX1 and even SRAM failed to trickle it down to the bottomest equipment tiers. This new 'microspline' can be easily adopted even to a 'stack-of-stamped-cogs' cassettes that abound low end groups.

  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by uzurpator View Post
    The 11 and 12 speed SRAM gear is cross compatible as well.
    Don't think so. Maybe it will work, but the spacing is not the same. https://sram.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/se...54-SRAM-Eagle-

  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Ok, so to summarize your statement:

    You don't like E13 cassettes.

    You don't understand why the shimano-compatible cassette body gets heavily scored on the outside edge (away from the center).

    You have trouble installing parts.

    All you want to know about shimano brakes can be found here:

    Frankenbrakes and brake improvement discussion | Ridemonkey Forums
    Nice try guy. If you don't have a rebuttal with any real points to make, just say so or let it go.

    I don't care about e*thirteen cassettes other than as a curious observer, I don't use them and have yet had no desire to, I think it is fine that they are offering some alternative cassettes for people that do need them. But it's pretty obvious that making XD work has been a bit of a trial for them, and it is all because of the fundamental weakness of the XD design. I am a Garbaruk customer and they make their cassettes in a similar fashion to SRAM, machined from a steel billet. They make versions for both Shimano and XD freehubs. The Shimano ones are cheaper and lighter for otherwise very similar 11 speed cassettes, and much simpler to install. All because of the quirks of XD. SRAM's own cassettes could be made simpler, cheaper and lighter for Micro-Spline, maybe they should talk to Shimano about that?

    Just because you can't properly describe technical issues doesn't mean I can't understand them. Traditional cassette bodies are a decades old technology and no Shimano freehub body has ever suffered notching from a cog. If aftermarket hubs use aluminum to save weight and it doesn't withstand the individual cassette cogs, that isn't Shimano's fault. I don't choose hubs with vulnerable bodies, but the ones I have worked on are still serviceable, it is just a little more work to get the cassette off and you have to dress the notches a bit. It's a calculated compromise for weight savings, like many things on a bike. The new design is an evolution of the old and Shimano chose to update the splines to a design that works better using aluminum. That is a good thing, it's how the process is supposed to work.

    No worries, I don't have any trouble installing these parts. But I see and have heard many complaints about XD cassette installs. There are plenty in the forums. They are finicky to install and plenty of amatuer home mechanics and even some bike shop guys have had issues with XD. The cost for these mistakes can be high indeed. XD won't get a pass any more for being the only game in town.

    Thanks for the link, I'm good. I'll be sure to find somebody that doesn't have so much trouble with them if I need help with any of my Shimano brakes that never seem to give me any trouble. Knock on wood!

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    Is the 11 speed cassette just 12 speed cassette with largest cog removed to save weight? And not compatible with old 11 speed system?

    Anyway it was impressive work from Shimano - I think they really covered all needs of racers, even the integrated dropper lever.

  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velodonata View Post
    If it is as good as it looks, is should be all around significantly better than Eagle. And Shimano is one of those manufacturers whose products generally live up to their appearances. They had enough time to get it right, and they really needed to deliver.
    One thing I did not notice at first is the spacing of the cassette. Sram 1050 just added a 50 cog to the original 1042, obtaining a rather odd spacing. Starting from 28 it gets 4-4-6-8 teeth increments:

    10 12 14 16 18 21 24 28 32 36 42 50

    compare with Shimano that at the top has smooth 5-6-6-6 increments:

    10 12 14 16 18 21 24 28 33 39 45 51

    The 1045 is even smoother at 4-4-4-5

    10 12 14 16 18 21 24 28 32 36 40 45

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    Iím in the camp the biggest drawback of this XTR is the hub driver. And Shimano pretty much lied about not being able to use XD. Sram has made the XD open for all to use without fee. Itís about Shimano just not wanting to use anything from Sram. It would be better if they just said we came out with micro spline because we think it is better these reasons. If Shimano wants this group to do well, they need to offer up micro spline to everyone. It just feels like Shimano is going back to their old dick moves to third party companies from back in the 90ís.

    Since my GX Eagle generally works better than my XT 1x11 between my two bikes, and it costs less on OEM bikes, I just canít see even a XT level one bringing me back to the Shimano fold. The only downside is the extra cost of the cassette, but after having Shimano cassettes dig into and trash AL hub bodies for years, Iím Ok with an extra minimal cost. Besides, the move to one piece cassettes reduces the inevitable creaking Iíd get from Shimano multi piece cassettes.

    That said there is a lot of awesomeness to this group. The new brakes, the pedals, the crank, the dropper remote, the new derailleurs, all look great. Some of it may end up on my bike someday, just not the shifting bits unless it plays well with any XD cassettes.

    I think this article has some of the best fact checking:
    https://nsmb.com/articles/2019-shima...51-12spd-here/


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    Quote Originally Posted by Whambat View Post
    Iím in the camp the biggest drawback of this XTR is the hub driver. And Shimano pretty much lied about not being able to use XD. Sram has made the XD open for all to use without fee.
    This is only true for hub manufacturers. It encourages hub makers to offer xD drivers so that SRAM can sell more groupsets. They still hold their patent on the cassette side, and charge pretty steep licensing fees for anyone who wants to produce a cassette that interfaces with XD. Thats where they get you. So from Shimano's point of view, while they could freely produce hubs with an XD driver, they would still have to pay a license fee to produce cassettes. They were better off designing their own freehub from a financial stance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Whambat View Post
    Iím in the camp the biggest drawback of this XTR is the hub driver. And Shimano pretty much lied about not being able to use XD. Sram has made the XD open for all to use without fee. Itís about Shimano just not wanting to use anything from Sram. It would be better if they just said we came out with micro spline because we think it is better these reasons. If Shimano wants this group to do well, they need to offer up micro spline to everyone. It just feels like Shimano is going back to their old dick moves to third party companies from back in the 90ís.

    Since my GX Eagle generally works better than my XT 1x11 between my two bikes, and it costs less on OEM bikes, I just canít see even a XT level one bringing me back to the Shimano fold. The only downside is the extra cost of the cassette, but after having Shimano cassettes dig into and trash AL hub bodies for years, Iím Ok with an extra minimal cost. Besides, the move to one piece cassettes reduces the inevitable creaking Iíd get from Shimano multi piece cassettes.

    That said there is a lot of awesomeness to this group. The new brakes, the pedals, the crank, the dropper remote, the new derailleurs, all look great. Some of it may end up on my bike someday, just not the shifting bits unless it plays well with any XD cassettes.

    I think this article has some of the best fact checking:
    https://nsmb.com/articles/2019-shima...51-12spd-here/


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    How did they lie? They said that XD is not compatible with the way they build cassettes, which is true.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoTone View Post
    How did they lie? They said that XD is not compatible with the way they build cassettes, which is true.
    Hereís from the NSMB article and their fact checking:

    When the curtain was drawn back there were no gasps. Rumours of a 10-51 cassette were accurate and, as expected a brand new driver body makes way for a 10t smallest cog. Micro Spline is Shimanoís solution to the 10t problem and we were told there were other obstacles preventing adoption of the XD solution. Shimano doesnít produce a one piece cassette* and I was told it was unlikely Shimano would get permission to use SRAMís intellectual property.** SRAMís literature, quoted below, tells a different story. Redesigning the cassette would have been required, but that it seems to me that would be only slightly more than trivial for a company with Shimanoís manufacturing and engineering superiority. But perhaps there are intellectual property hurdles as well.

    *the cassette can have more than one piece using an XD driver, as evidenced by e*thirteenís solution, but once installed the pieces must attach and form a single unit because most of the length of an XD driver body is not splined.

    **"The XD compatible driver body design is an open standard available to any hub manufacturer interested in producing a driver body compatible with the XX1 10-42 11-speed cassette (or current Eagle cassettes - Ed.). This open standard allows hub manufacturer to design an XD compatible driver body that works with their own ratchet design.Ē From SRAM literature.

    My own thoughts: would the phrase ambiguity with the facts be more amicable?

    I honestly hope that either they offer an open license to any hub manufacturer for the new body soon or offer a 11-51 cassette that works with HG bodies. I really think they need to do one or the other, or both, to have a real chance for this to take back market share. I want them to succeed, really. Competition benefits us all. I donít want Shimano to just end up being that company that has really good brakes and pedals on otherwise Sram specíd bikes as they started to become.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Whambat View Post
    Hereís from the NSMB article and their fact checking:

    When the curtain was drawn back there were no gasps. Rumours of a 10-51 cassette were accurate and, as expected a brand new driver body makes way for a 10t smallest cog. Micro Spline is Shimanoís solution to the 10t problem and we were told there were other obstacles preventing adoption of the XD solution. Shimano doesnít produce a one piece cassette* and I was told it was unlikely Shimano would get permission to use SRAMís intellectual property.** SRAMís literature, quoted below, tells a different story. Redesigning the cassette would have been required, but that it seems to me that would be only slightly more than trivial for a company with Shimanoís manufacturing and engineering superiority. But perhaps there are intellectual property hurdles as well.

    *the cassette can have more than one piece using an XD driver, as evidenced by e*thirteenís solution, but once installed the pieces must attach and form a single unit because most of the length of an XD driver body is not splined.

    **"The XD compatible driver body design is an open standard available to any hub manufacturer interested in producing a driver body compatible with the XX1 10-42 11-speed cassette (or current Eagle cassettes - Ed.). This open standard allows hub manufacturer to design an XD compatible driver body that works with their own ratchet design.Ē From SRAM literature.

    My own thoughts: would the phrase ambiguity with the facts be more amicable?

    I honestly hope that either they offer an open license to any hub manufacturer for the new body soon or offer a 11-51 cassette that works with HG bodies. I really think they need to do one or the other, or both, to have a real chance for this to take back market share. I want them to succeed, really. Competition benefits us all. I donít want Shimano to just end up being that company that has really good brakes and pedals on otherwise Sram specíd bikes as they started to become.
    I so how would the E-13 system work for a 3 piece unit?
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    The hyperglide type freehub is, what, 25 years old? The ratcheting mech stuffed inside the freehub is even older.

    Shimano fixed all the problems with both of them. I'm glad they improved on the XD design. XT level cassettes will continue to be $50.

    You'll still be able to buy cassettes for your older hyperglide hubs for the next 20 years. If shimano stops making them, someone else will step up.

    There are no downsides.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Schulze View Post
    The hyperglide type freehub is, what, 25 years old? The ratcheting mech stuffed inside the freehub is even older.

    Shimano fixed all the problems with both of them. I'm glad they improved on the XD design. XT level cassettes will continue to be $50.

    You'll still be able to buy cassettes for your older hyperglide hubs for the next 20 years. If shimano stops making them, someone else will step up.

    There are no downsides.
    It's not 2003 anymore. I highly doubt this will be the case. I'm not saying they'll be $300, but $50 was halo-time and you ordered a few at the same time because that didn't come around very often. Now with inflation? You are dreaming.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    It's not 2003 anymore. I highly doubt this will be the case. I'm not saying they'll be $300, but $50 was halo-time and you ordered a few at the same time because that didn't come around very often. Now with inflation? You are dreaming.
    You're splitting hairs here....

    XT cassettes retail for less than $100, and can easily be found for a third of the price of a comparable SRAM X1 cassette.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Whambat View Post
    Hereís from the NSMB article and their fact checking:

    When the curtain was drawn back there were no gasps. Rumours of a 10-51 cassette were accurate and, as expected a brand new driver body makes way for a 10t smallest cog. Micro Spline is Shimanoís solution to the 10t problem and we were told there were other obstacles preventing adoption of the XD solution. Shimano doesnít produce a one piece cassette* and I was told it was unlikely Shimano would get permission to use SRAMís intellectual property.** SRAMís literature, quoted below, tells a different story. Redesigning the cassette would have been required, but that it seems to me that would be only slightly more than trivial for a company with Shimanoís manufacturing and engineering superiority. But perhaps there are intellectual property hurdles as well.

    *the cassette can have more than one piece using an XD driver, as evidenced by e*thirteenís solution, but once installed the pieces must attach and form a single unit because most of the length of an XD driver body is not splined.

    **"The XD compatible driver body design is an open standard available to any hub manufacturer interested in producing a driver body compatible with the XX1 10-42 11-speed cassette (or current Eagle cassettes - Ed.). This open standard allows hub manufacturer to design an XD compatible driver body that works with their own ratchet design.Ē From SRAM literature.

    My own thoughts: would the phrase ambiguity with the facts be more amicable?

    I honestly hope that either they offer an open license to any hub manufacturer for the new body soon or offer a 11-51 cassette that works with HG bodies. I really think they need to do one or the other, or both, to have a real chance for this to take back market share. I want them to succeed, really. Competition benefits us all. I donít want Shimano to just end up being that company that has really good brakes and pedals on otherwise Sram specíd bikes as they started to become.
    There's already 11-50 cassettes for HG freehub bodies. 1 more tooth isn't going to matter

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    Quote Originally Posted by RAKC Ind View Post
    There's already 11-50 cassettes for HG freehub bodies. 1 more tooth isn't going to matter

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
    So right, it will not matter. However, when it arrives in Di2, I am a customer just cause I need to keep it fresh. When you get above 60, riding almost everyday will keep us alive a lot longer. So the latest tech just makes it even more fun which equals more miles ridden harder.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pedalon2018 View Post
    So right, it will not matter. However, when it arrives in Di2, I am a customer just cause I need to keep it fresh. When you get above 60, riding almost everyday will keep us alive a lot longer. So the latest tech just makes it even more fun which equals more miles ridden harder.
    Yeap. New stuff does add more fun because it adds something different.

    Now 10-51 or DI2 ya that's new, but the HG cassette thing is already out, not sure that's worth writing home about. But after all my riding the last 3 days, an extra 4 teeth (50t vs current 46t) would have been welcome the second half of today's ride. Lots of redlining the heart rate lol.

    DI2 is one of those "some day but I really want it" things. Shimano doing 12 speed, yes please once we see XT level.

    But now begs the question, 50T (and now 51t) is exceeding the limits of chains and drivetrains with the cutrent

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pedalon2018 View Post
    So right, it will not matter. However, when it arrives in Di2, I am a customer just cause I need to keep it fresh. When you get above 60, riding almost everyday will keep us alive a lot longer. So the latest tech just makes it even more fun which equals more miles ridden harder.
    Ok Tapatalk being weird. Can't delete

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  71. #71
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    I bet shimano is working on a wireless electronic shifting system to replace Di2, just a total guess of course.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAKC Ind View Post
    Now 10-51 or DI2 ya that's new, but the HG cassette thing is already out, not sure that's worth writing home about.
    HG and HG+ are different. Very different. Did you not read about how they made it so the chain remains engaged throughout the shift, splitting engagement between the two cogs, allowing for shifting under power? Imagine no more hard clunk, no more possibility of slipping... is this not a very notable feature worth mentioning? Shimano claims it's the heart of their new drivetrain's innovations. It was explained that it offered HG ramping in both directions (I assume it was only in the downshift/climbing direction before).

    https://bikerumor.com/2018/05/25/201...es-everything/

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    Quote Originally Posted by karmaphi View Post
    HG and HG+ are different. Very different. Did you not read about how they made it so the chain remains engaged throughout the shift, splitting engagement between the two cogs, allowing for shifting under power? Imagine no more hard clunk, no more possibility of slipping... is this not a very notable feature worth mentioning? Shimano claims it's the heart of their new drivetrain's innovations. It was explained that it offered HG ramping in both directions (I assume it was only in the downshift/climbing direction before).

    https://bikerumor.com/2018/05/25/201...es-everything/
    I was referring to an 11-50 cassette that fits normal freehubs which was all I thought he was referring too.

    I have to re-read the details, I was at a family get together today after riding in 90F heat and drinking beer not water once I arrived. So parts of the day are missing some details, hehe

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    I can't believe they stuck with 24mm spindles when it's clear that 28.99mm spindles are superior.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RAKC Ind View Post
    There's already 11-50 cassettes for HG freehub bodies. 1 more tooth isn't going to matter

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    It's not so much the 1 tooth on the big ring that matters. It's the one they took off the smallest.
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    Quote Originally Posted by noapathy View Post
    It's not so much the 1 tooth on the big ring that matters. It's the one they took off the smallest.
    You didn't read what I was responding to, asking about an 11-51 for standard current Shimano freehubs.

    But ya the new standard like SRAM offers. 10t cog now which widens range more than what 11s offers.

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  77. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAKC Ind View Post
    You didn't read what I was responding to, asking about an 11-51 for standard current Shimano freehubs.

    But ya the new standard like SRAM offers. 10t cog now which widens range more than what 11s offers.
    That's what I get for skimming.

    As far as range goes, I can't see much more range increase without a front derailleur (not likely) or internal gearing. Not that I'm in a huge hurry... honestly I'm happy enough with 10spd and have enough spare parts to keep me running for quite some time.
    :nono: :thumbsup:

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    2018 Shimano XTR 12-speed

    321g for the rear j-bend hub canít be right. Perhaps 231g?

    http://reviews.mtbr.com/new-shimano-...edals-and-more

    It doesnít say if the wide flange hub is available in both j-bend and straight pull.

    The 11 speed option would be great for weight weenies. Fast engagement, Shimano durability and superior bracing angle, all for a weight that is comparable to all but the lightest of hubs.

    It would be interesting to see what the spoke tension percentage will be.

    10-45 x 28T would yield a better range both at the high and low end than the current XT 11-46 x 30T. Which is strange why a 28T chainring is not offered.

    The chamfered inner plate might suggest that current aftermarket narrow wide chainrings might be too wide to fit the new chain.

  79. #79
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    Yes, it's 231g.

    Only J-bend for the 11s version, the weight is listed as 228g

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    https://www.bike-discount.de/en/buy/...assette-740329

    291 eur, exactly the same as Eagle cassette then, available at least in 6 weeks according to bikediscount

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    It was certainly only a matter of time and they are there. I'm sure it will work great but too late for me, I like my Eagle XO1 and Guide Brakes. The hub standard looks interesting. Shimano stuff is always super-precise and appliance like....the Toyota Camry of drivetrains but I prefer the push-push and more positive feel of Sram. I like the variety Shimano is offering in terms of ranges, certainly curious to try it but again, sticking with the Eagle!
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    Quote Originally Posted by GuitsBoy View Post
    Shimano cassettes have fully folded on me, but then again so have expensive e-13, cheap sunrace, and practically every other cassette out there.
    Wow! The cogs folded? I've never heard of such a thing in my 40+ years of cycling.

    Surely you have some pictures. Please share.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 410sprint View Post
    Wow! The cogs folded? I've never heard of such a thing in my 40+ years of cycling.

    I've seen sram cogs bent/folded but never on a shimano.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 410sprint View Post
    Wow! The cogs folded? I've never heard of such a thing in my 40+ years of cycling.

    Surely you have some pictures. Please share.
    I realize this is a shimano thread, however I cant seem to find my 11-42 10 and 11 speed carnage pics. However the failure method is the same as this e*13 and sunrace cog. In fact, the shimano xt cassettes were folded worse. Hopefully I can find them when I have more time.

    2018 Shimano XTR 12-speed-bent_cog1.jpg2018 Shimano XTR 12-speed-bent_cog0.jpg2018 Shimano XTR 12-speed-20160926_190818.jpg2018 Shimano XTR 12-speed-20160926_190744.jpg

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    Folded over cassettes isnt an easy thing to do. I'm 275lbs and hammer the hell out of things, only cassette cog I've EVER folded was because of a bad shift while mashing. Though I've never ran Sram eagle I do have sunrace cassettes. Folding them as much as above is hard not to question really bad shifting habits because that's the only way you can bend them like that I can think of unless it's running a big front ring and mashing all the time. But on a 30 or 32 I haven't managed that yet.

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  86. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAKC Ind View Post
    Folding them as much as above is hard not to question really bad shifting habits because that's the only way you can bend them like that.
    Everyone is always very quick to blame shifting habits, and I guess I can understand where youre all coming from. However I can tell you with 100% certainty every cassette I have folded over has happened without any shifting at all. Its simply a function of traction, chainline and out of the saddle mashing. No shifting. Some times you can feel as soon as it folds over, as the pedal stroke feels soft. Other times its more mild, and you dont notice until the bottom few gears start ghost shifting all of a sudden.

    Whats more, if this was indeed due to a misshift, it would more likely be a single snaggled tooth, or broken tooth as the chain is pulled at a sharp angle from one cog to the next. As you can see thats not the case here, as theyre all bent over smoothly.

    I'm surprised so many people question this, there's been plenty of posts about bent big cogs here in the drivetrain forum.

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    The advantage of Shimano in that case is that you can replace that part of the cassette.

    Which cassette has a red spider and spacers?

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    Quote Originally Posted by GuitsBoy View Post
    Everyone is always very quick to blame shifting habits, and I guess I can understand where youre all coming from. However I can tell you with 100% certainty every cassette I have folded over has happened without any shifting at all. Its simply a function of traction, chainline and out of the saddle mashing. No shifting. Some times you can feel as soon as it folds over, as the pedal stroke feels soft. Other times its more mild, and you dont notice until the bottom few gears start ghost shifting all of a sudden.

    Whats more, if this was indeed due to a misshift, it would more likely be a single snaggled tooth, or broken tooth as the chain is pulled at a sharp angle from one cog to the next. As you can see thats not the case here, as theyre all bent over smoothly.

    I'm surprised so many people question this, there's been plenty of posts about bent big cogs here in the drivetrain forum.
    Ya I corrected my post while you were reading that, I could see taller rings and mashing with chainlines causing issues but I would have expected more than just a few teeth or so to fold in that case. Looked more like partial chain engagement when mashing starts. But until my phat a$$ manages to do what you've done I won't fully understand.

    The ones I've seen have been on ultralight cassettes, more mid range cassettes isnt something I expected many beyond serious power houses (maybe you are one which would explain things).

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  89. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAKC Ind View Post
    Ya I corrected my post while you were reading that, I could see taller rings and mashing with chainlines causing issues but I would have expected more than just a few teeth or so to fold in that case. Looked more like partial chain engagement when mashing starts. But until my phat a$$ manages to do what you've done I won't fully understand.

    The ones I've seen have been on ultralight cassettes, more mid range cassettes isnt something I expected many beyond serious power houses (maybe you are one which would explain things).

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    I have seen smaller guys do this too. Oddly, it seems mashers that ride flats are more prone, but Im pulling from a very small sample size. I'm only a mid level rider overall, but I can recruit a lot of torque over short distances, which is what seems to shred parts. The shimano cassettes were indeed folded over a larger number of teeth than the other cassettes I pictured. I dont know if that means they were stronger or weaker, but both were bent while on the fatbike. Keep in mind, I break freehubs and chains on the reg as well. Ive had two sram eagle GX chains pull apart in under 200 miles, so that's my next gripe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GuitsBoy View Post
    I have seen smaller guys do this too. Oddly, it seems mashers that ride flats are more prone, but Im pulling from a very small sample size. I'm only a mid level rider overall, but I can recruit a lot of torque over short distances, which is what seems to shred parts. The shimano cassettes were indeed folded over a larger number of teeth than the other cassettes I pictured. I dont know if that means they were stronger or weaker, but both were bent while on the fatbike. Keep in mind, I break freehubs and chains on the reg as well. Ive had two sram eagle GX chains pull apart in under 200 miles, so that's my next gripe.
    Going further off-topic here, but have you ever thought about trying an Onyx Racing hub? Maybe the soft engagement and spring-winding-up action of the sprags under extreme torque could work to your advantage and save those component failures? It just makes for nice soft yet instant engagement normally, but for you it would be a bulletproof hub that could also act as a driveline torque peak smoother with no net loss of energy and probably less rolling resistance than what you are on now. Costly, but maybe not in the long run.

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    Quote Originally Posted by richde View Post
    Which cassette has a red spider and spacers?
    Sunrace makes versions of their cassettes with red spiders and spacers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Velodonata View Post
    Sunrace makes versions of their cassettes with red spiders and spacers.
    Ah, so don't buy sunrace cassettes and don't assume Shimano or SRAM cassettes are the same as sunrace.

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    Quote Originally Posted by richde View Post
    Ah, so don't buy sunrace cassettes and don't assume Shimano or SRAM cassettes are the same as sunrace.
    Only if you're in that tiny group of abnormally strong and/or destructive riders. Otherwise, no worries. I've been running an 11-40 Sunrace for over a year now and it's been just as good as the XT/SLX stuff.
    :nono: :thumbsup:

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    Quote Originally Posted by richde View Post
    Ah, so don't buy sunrace cassettes and don't assume Shimano or SRAM cassettes are the same as sunrace.
    I'm 275lbs and can mash in things fairly hard NEVER damaged a sunrace cassette and have 2 on 2 different bikes. Many, many people ride sunrace with no problems. If your going to cause a sunrace cassette to fail Shimano and sram will fail as well.

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    This is the last cassette problem I've had (almost exactly 2 yrs ago):

    2018 Shimano XTR 12-speed-01109469d0506b97ac803f15da60382a73e8d430b3.jpg

    2018 Shimano XTR 12-speed-0175a30faa8c2d884420a60f1ffa5903f505fb3be9.jpg

    2018 Shimano XTR 12-speed-01f90cdc58f8aebeed2cb83825c5a77561ee6c78cc.jpg
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    New standard is good if it improves the existing one.

    This freehub is an improvement. Allows cheaper cassettes in parts, hybrid cassettes for more optimal weight/wear. Many more splines to carry the torque of the bigger cogs, and spread the load of individual cogs so they don't chip the freehub as quickly. All improvements.

    New ispec, if it offers more adjustment range, why not?

    You guys think that you should judge the group whether it fits an old bike. That's the last thing a manufacturer cares about. It's about new bike sales. They don't design next year's group for last year's bikes.

    When XT/SLX/Deore come out in this configuration srams dominance on drivetrain will be history, unless they continues their well known "OEM pricing".

    What this means for you, that competition drives prices down, now there is competition. You should be happy even if you are a sram fan.

    One thing that is for sure bad for consumers is monopoly. Sram monopoly is over.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CrozCountry View Post
    New standard is good if it improves the existing one.

    This freehub is an improvement. Allows cheaper cassettes in parts, hybrid cassettes for more optimal weight/wear. Many more splines to carry the torque of the bigger cogs, and spread the load of individual cogs so they don't chip the freehub as quickly. All improvements.

    New ispec, if it offers more adjustment range, why not?

    You guys think that you should judge the group whether it fits an old bike. That's the last thing a manufacturer cares about. It's about new bike sales. They don't design next year's group for last year's bikes.

    When XT/SLX/Deore come out in this configuration srams dominance on drivetrain will be history, unless they continues their well known "OEM pricing".

    What this means for you, that competition drives prices down, now there is competition. You should be happy even if you are a sram fan.

    One thing that is for sure bad for consumers is monopoly. Sram monopoly is over.
    The simple answer: Because marginal improvements screw people over more than they improve the riding experience.
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  98. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    The simple answer: Because marginal improvements screw people over more than they improve the riding experience.
    Disagree, marginal gains are the reasons we have such great bikes today. Old tech is still available for those who want it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velodonata View Post
    Going further off-topic here, but have you ever thought about trying an Onyx Racing hub? Maybe the soft engagement and spring-winding-up action of the sprags under extreme torque could work to your advantage and save those component failures? It just makes for nice soft yet instant engagement normally, but for you it would be a bulletproof hub that could also act as a driveline torque peak smoother with no net loss of energy and probably less rolling resistance than what you are on now. Costly, but maybe not in the long run.
    Thats an interesting concept. A good friend of mine rides onyx and what your saying about the sprag clutch does make sense, as it may eliminate the initial shock to the drivetrain. Historically, I have bent more cassettes on the fatbike, which I chalked up to the extra traction. However a compounding issue might be the fact that my cheap hubs use a standard shimano freehub with only 18 points of engagement. With the added rotation of the cranks before the pawls catch, the resulting shock may be adding stress to the mix.

    Sorry for all the off-topic conversation. I'll certainly be watching to see how the durability is on these things, particularly once it trickles down to XT.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    The simple answer: Because marginal improvements screw people over more than they improve the riding experience.
    not really, people don't need to buy if it's not compatible with whatever current bike they have. there is still plenty of stuff available that work with old standards, even 26" tires are available all over the place!

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    Quote Originally Posted by mfa81 View Post
    not really, people don't need to buy if it's not compatible with whatever current bike they have. there is still plenty of stuff available that work with old standards, even 26" tires are available all over the place!
    Exactly. All the curmudgeons that complain about new standards etc. but you can buy all that old 9 and 10 speed stuff, 135mm QR hubs, straight steerer forks, and the list goes on. At some point, you upgrade your bike and progress moves on. My 2012 HT is still more than useable with 10 speed and QRs and I can buy parts for it at 6 years old.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mfa81 View Post
    not really, people don't need to buy if it's not compatible with whatever current bike they have. there is still plenty of stuff available that work with old standards, even 26" tires are available all over the place!
    Itís not just that it wonít work with old stuff. Thereís a huge part of the new market that it wonít work for. Having only two hub options shuts it out of a lot of OEM potential. Take Ibis for example, they have either Ibis or I-9 hubs as options. They have worked a long standing partnership with I-9. Does this mean Ibis can no longer offer a Shimano build kit option? Or is Shimano going to strong arm them into sticking their hubs? What about Pivot? They have been one of the few brands to be mostly Shimano centric, but there is no XTR super boost hubs for them. Is Pivot going to stick with Shimano now?
    It just reminds me of the strong arm tactics Shimano used in the 90s when they essentially had a monopoly. However, they no longer have the leverage they used to have.

    Trust me I want Shimano to succeed. I just rode my Shimano equipped bike today and would love to see continued refinement of that product. I have nothing against new standards if they make sense and are open for the industry to use.

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    Shimano will have to open Micro-Spline up, but I expect they are in no rush since the parts are not even available yet and will be XTR exclusive for a while. They may have a deal with DT for a time, and want to get some exposure for the Scylence hubs, but there is no way they can lock this thing down long term, it would be insane. They are in prime position to take advantage of SRAM's mistake in creating a standard with limited utility. I would be shocked if they fail to capitalize on that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RAKC Ind View Post
    Folded over cassettes isnt an easy thing to do. I'm 275lbs and hammer the hell out of things, only cassette cog I've EVER folded was because of a bad shift while mashing. Though I've never ran Sram eagle I do have sunrace cassettes. Folding them as much as above is hard not to question really bad shifting habits because that's the only way you can bend them like that I can think of unless it's running a big front ring and mashing all the time. But on a 30 or 32 I haven't managed that yet.

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    lol, my 13yr old has done this on his 11-50 cassette. I'm a bit annoyed and still scratching my head how he did it at his hefty 90lbs wet. The big cog isn't as bent as the ones in the pic but its there and with one broken tooth.

    That said it's clear we've approached the limit of cassette sizing. All them big arse cassettes lack durability.

    Quote Originally Posted by GuitsBoy View Post
    I have seen smaller guys do this too.
    Concur.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Velodonata View Post
    Shimano will have to open Micro-Spline up, but I expect they are in no rush since the parts are not even available yet and will be XTR exclusive for a while. They may have a deal with DT for a time, and want to get some exposure for the Scylence hubs, but there is no way they can lock this thing down long term, it would be insane. They are in prime position to take advantage of SRAM's mistake in creating a standard with limited utility. I would be shocked if they fail to capitalize on that.
    They will, it's a little silly to assume otherwise.

    I'd be willing to bet that any Xd driver availability issues were the fault of the hub manufacturers, as will any problems with micro spline...and just like with Xd, they'll be temporary.

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    They will probably open the hub standard with XT/SLX where builds will have to be more price sensitive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Whambat View Post
    Itís not just that it wonít work with old stuff. Thereís a huge part of the new market that it wonít work for. Having only two hub options shuts it out of a lot of OEM potential. Take Ibis for example, they have either Ibis or I-9 hubs as options. They have worked a long standing partnership with I-9. Does this mean Ibis can no longer offer a Shimano build kit option? Or is Shimano going to strong arm them into sticking their hubs? What about Pivot? They have been one of the few brands to be mostly Shimano centric, but there is no XTR super boost hubs for them. Is Pivot going to stick with Shimano now?
    .
    Ibis and Pivot are horrible examples. Ibis doesn't care and will probably just offer sram builds for 2019. They are also a much smaller customer for shimano than pivot is. Pivot is firmly in bed with DT so this doesn't effect them whatsoever. And they love new complications and standards. They'll probably be the first to show a bike in the US with new xtr and dt wheels with the new driver. Bank on it.

    Shimano can't "strongarm" anyone as long as sram exists. That's not what strongarm means. If anything, this is costing them a little more potential sales in the higher end of the market for 2019 models. Remember, this is just XTR. This isn't going to make a big difference for their oem sales until it trickles down to xt and slx. Just like the killing sram has made with eagle gx the last 2 years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by richde View Post
    They will, it's a little silly to assume otherwise.

    I'd be willing to bet that any Xd driver availability issues were the fault of the hub manufacturers, as will any problems with micro spline...and just like with Xd, they'll be temporary.
    Exactly, Shimano wouldn't be so dumb to have only DT making compatible, all hubs will be compatible sooner or later.

  109. #109
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    I'd rather see a 9 tooth cog.

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  110. #110
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    Now official: upgrades for DT hubs will be available. Just swap it in, no tools required. https://bikerumor.com/2018/06/04/mic...y-for-new-xtr/

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    I was at the LBS and they were saying Shimano is doing 2x12, including 2x 10-50! Wha?
    Do the math.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lone Rager View Post
    I was at the LBS and they were saying Shimano is doing 2x12, including 2x 10-50! Wha?
    I'm amazed at the degree to which Shimano desperately clings to the front derailleur. Meanwhile there have been significant improvements in mountain bike components and frame geometry throughout the past decade. The obsolescence of the front derailleur is certainly one of these and cause for ongoing celebration.
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  113. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparticus View Post
    I'm amazed at the degree to which Shimano desperately clings to the front derailleur. Meanwhile there have been significant improvements in mountain bike components and frame geometry throughout the past decade. The obsolescence of the front derailleur is certainly one of these and cause for ongoing celebration.
    =sParty
    One of the benefits of 1x is it has greatly simplified suspension kinematics. Having 2 or 3 rings was especially problematic to suspension designers, because they had to try and design the "best compromise" between wildly changing kinematics depending on what ring you were in. Many single pivot bikes now work just as well as "more complicated" parallel linkage and other suspension systems.
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  114. #114
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    Will new 12 speed xtr have more Torque than sram?

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    ^^^ facetious, I hope?
    Do the math.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparticus View Post
    I'm amazed at the degree to which Shimano desperately clings to the front derailleur. Meanwhile there have been significant improvements in mountain bike components and frame geometry throughout the past decade. The obsolescence of the front derailleur is certainly one of these and cause for ongoing celebration.
    =sParty
    Only obsolete to you. 1x still cannot match the full range of 2x and some people need the range.

    The fact you consider 1x as an upgrade is kind of odd honestly. 1x has been around since chains went on bicycles. It's "technically" a downgrade. But people buy into the marketing koolaid instead of seeing what 1x really is, another option that works well for some and corrects issues for FS bikes which are the tiniest percentage of bikes out there. But for many these new 1x systems are a solution to a non-existant problem created by posts like yours in which people believe and demand better.

    They could have designed and released wide range cassettes long ago.

    Look at the mass numbers of problems with sram 12s shifting and such. We've hit and now trying to go through a wall of how many gears you can cram on the back.


    All that said I only ride 1x, all I need here. Been doing it since LONG before everyone jumped on the wagon.

    On the plus side at least shimano puts time and effort into their design instead of having the same problems YEARS LATER. I run shimano on one bike and sram on the other. Counting down the days I can get rid of my sram GX drivetrain and go shimano on that bike too.

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  117. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAKC Ind View Post
    Only obsolete to you. 1x still cannot match the full range of 2x and some people need the range.

    It's pretty close, if using 2x10 speed with 11-36 cassette it's about exactly the same as 1x with a 10-50.

    I'm not anti 2x at all because I think it's good for many situations and riders but 2x with a 11-50 cassette does seem borderline ridiculous to me. I suppose there are a few riders who might want it though.
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  118. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    It's pretty close, if using 2x10 speed with 11-36 cassette it's about exactly the same as 1x with a 10-50.

    I'm not anti 2x at all because I think it's good for many situations and riders but 2x with a 11-50 cassette does seem borderline ridiculous to me. I suppose there are a few riders who might want it though.
    I'll agree that 2x with 10/11-50 is a bit insane.

    But how does that compare to 3x10 though? I haven't done the numbers but seems like 2x12 can do same range at least of 3x10.

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    I maight be tempted to build an XC hardtail with 2x12 10-45 and use it for long rides with a mix of road, gravel, and singletrack. With some fast rolling XC tires it would also work well as a commuter that you could have some serious fun with along the way. Main advantage over older 2x systems with similar range would be closer jumps between gears which could be handy on road/gravel.

  120. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by bronxbomber252 View Post
    I maight be tempted to build an XC hardtail with 2x12 10-45 and use it for long rides with a mix of road, gravel, and singletrack. With some fast rolling XC tires it would also work well as a commuter that you could have some serious fun with along the way. Main advantage over older 2x systems with similar range would be closer jumps between gears which could be handy on road/gravel.
    I've got a XC FS that ran 2x11 11-40 for a time. I never ran out of gears, just legs.

  121. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lone Rager View Post
    I was at the LBS and they were saying Shimano is doing 2x12, including 2x 10-50! Wha?

    They are clinging to the past tenaciously and it's amusing.
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  122. #122
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    There's also a 10-45 11spd version with the improved shifting and silent hub. If and when this hits XT/SLX pricepoints that should tempt more folks like myself to finally move on from 10spd.

    (edited for incorrect info)
    Last edited by noapathy; 06-06-2018 at 01:48 PM.
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  123. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by noapathy View Post
    The 2x isn't compatible with the 10-51 anyway...
    Check the second item down in the first column.

    2018 Shimano XTR 12-speed-xtr.jpg
    Do the math.

  124. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lone Rager View Post
    Check the second item down in the first column.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	xtr.jpg 
Views:	232 
Size:	23.8 KB 
ID:	1202500
    Ah, thanks for sorting me out. I misread an article and my brain could only hold so many specs at a time.

    Maybe now I can finally climb that cliff without dismounting!
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  125. #125
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    I'd like a 2x12 26-36 10-34

  126. #126
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    hopefully by the time this trickles down, licensed has been available to other hub manufacturers aside from dt swiss.
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  127. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by spyghost View Post
    hopefully by the time this trickles down, licensed has been available to other hub manufacturers aside from dt swiss.
    Unless Shimano enjoys shooting itself in the head, there's no doubt in my mind additional (read: any) hub manufacturers will have access to manufacture to Shimano's new 12-spd standard.

    Everybody on these forums keeps saying, "Only Shimano & DT hubs will be available!!! {gasp!!!}"

    No. Only Shimano & DT hubs have been announced SO FAR.

    Saying that all wheels are round doesn't mean everything that's round is a wheel.

    Maybe an awkward analogy but y'all know what I mean.
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    Last edited by Sparticus; 06-09-2018 at 09:46 AM. Reason: Changed "are available" to "have been announced"
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  128. #128
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    Universal Cycles now lists much of the new XTR here: https://www.universalcycles.com/new_products.php (hopefully the link works or just go to newest products)
    They are not in-stock, but for those that want it first you can sign-up for an alert.

  129. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aresab View Post
    Universal Cycles now lists much of the new XTR here: https://www.universalcycles.com/new_products.php (hopefully the link works or just go to newest products)
    They are not in-stock, but for those that want it first you can sign-up for an alert.
    shimano haven't released their stuff yet and it's already on sale :-)

  130. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schulze View Post
    I'd like a 2x12 26-36 10-34

    I was thinking 2x12, 42-53, 10-21
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  131. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    I was thinking 2x12, 42-53, 10-21
    That would be pretty sweet, tbh. Altho for mountain riding I'd prefer 36/22 + 11-36 12 speed with all those sweet 1-tooth jumps on the high gears.

    I'm not butthurt over FD, obviously.

  132. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAKC Ind View Post
    Only obsolete to you. 1x still cannot match the full range of 2x and some people need the range.

    The fact you consider 1x as an upgrade is kind of odd honestly. 1x has been around since chains went on bicycles. It's "technically" a downgrade. But people buy into the marketing koolaid instead of seeing what 1x really is, another option that works well for some and corrects issues for FS bikes which are the tiniest percentage of bikes out there. But for many these new 1x systems are a solution to a non-existant problem created by posts like yours in which people believe and demand better.

    They could have designed and released wide range cassettes long ago.

    Look at the mass numbers of problems with sram 12s shifting and such. We've hit and now trying to go through a wall of how many gears you can cram on the back.


    All that said I only ride 1x, all I need here. Been doing it since LONG before everyone jumped on the wagon.

    On the plus side at least shimano puts time and effort into their design instead of having the same problems YEARS LATER. I run shimano on one bike and sram on the other. Counting down the days I can get rid of my sram GX drivetrain and go shimano on that bike too.

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
    What specifically are the "mass numbers of problems" with Sram Eagle? I have it, lots of my friends have it, no problems. It's more precise and requires proper set up for sure. The chain ocassionally riding on the 42/50 cogs isn't so much of a problem but a "normal condition" that has zero impact on the overall use/quality of the shifting. I am curious to see how the Shimano stuff does/deals with some of this.
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  133. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by TiGeo View Post
    What specifically are the "mass numbers of problems" with Sram Eagle? I have it, lots of my friends have it, no problems. It's more precise and requires proper set up for sure. The chain ocassionally riding on the 42/50 cogs isn't so much of a problem but a "normal condition" that has zero impact on the overall use/quality of the shifting. I am curious to see how the Shimano stuff does/deals with some of this.
    Yeah, virtually every fatbike in the last few years here (and that's a lot of fatbikes) has it.
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  134. #134
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    1x is a compromise for sure but getting to be less so with these mega-range systems. For "normal" mountainbiking it's great. If you are riding 25 miles of fast rolling gravel roads to get to the trail head and your trails involve incredibly steep climbs, it's not going to be ideal and maybe a double is still a good option for you to get more high/low end range but again, most folks are driving to the trail, and riding stuff that involves climbing that a 32/50 is more than adequate for and flats that a 32/10 is more than adequate for and aren't super concerned with the jumps between gears....it's why it's popular and Shimano knows it and has taken heat for not offering a super-wide range setup like this. 1000 miles on my Eagle XO1 with no drama/issues. Chain still not at 0.5 wear mark yet. I really like it.
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  135. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by noapathy View Post
    Ah, thanks for sorting me out. I misread an article and my brain could only hold so many specs at a time.

    Maybe now I can finally climb that cliff without dismounting!
    I'm guessing the articles were wrong then as several definitely said the 2x12 option was the 10-45 cassette only:

    https://www.bikeradar.com/mtb/news/a...freehub-52337/

    XTR M9100 offers three 1x options and one 2x option.

    1x12 with a 10-51t cassette
    1x12 with a 10-45t cassette
    1x11 with a 10-45t cassette
    2x12 with a 10-45t cassette
    I don't understand the love for 1x systems although I was curious if I'd think any different when I went with the Stache that can't take a front derailleur. However I still don't get it, the range is reduced and the cassette is a lot more expensive so the only advantage I've had with it is there's more space for a dropper lever. The weight savings of removing the front derailleur are very small and while I've had a few mechanicals with a rear derailleur, the front has been fine. Even if it did fail, you can still have a near 1x range at the back anyway. I do realise I could change the Stache to GX Eagle to improve the range but that helps one problem while making the cassette cost, a wearable part much worse plus I dislike the Sram shifter design.

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  136. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jan View Post
    Don't think so. Maybe it will work, but the spacing is not the same. https://sram.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/se...54-SRAM-Eagle-
    Wondering if this is like two years ago when SRAM said only Eagle 12 chainrings would work on their new drivetrain? They sold a lot of expensive Eagle chainrings before everyone realized any narrow speed ring would work.

  137. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by mfa81 View Post
    shimano haven't released their stuff yet and it's already on sale :-)
    You got me all tingly. Of course nothing in stock.

  138. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnMcL7 View Post
    I'm guessing the articles were wrong then as several definitely said the 2x12 option was the 10-45 cassette only:

    https://www.bikeradar.com/mtb/news/a...freehub-52337/



    I don't understand the love for 1x systems although I was curious if I'd think any different when I went with the Stache that can't take a front derailleur. However I still don't get it, the range is reduced and the cassette is a lot more expensive so the only advantage I've had with it is there's more space for a dropper lever. The weight savings of removing the front derailleur are very small and while I've had a few mechanicals with a rear derailleur, the front has been fine. Even if it did fail, you can still have a near 1x range at the back anyway. I do realise I could change the Stache to GX Eagle to improve the range but that helps one problem while making the cassette cost, a wearable part much worse plus I dislike the Sram shifter design.

    John
    Because even in a race, you really don't use the higher gears all that much. Even if you did make up 3 seconds in the downhill, it's totally eclipsed by what happens everywhere else. Racers are completing races faster than ever and they are doing it on 1x systems. I'm not saying you need to go out and race, but as far as "slowing you down", that's just bunk.

    Have you ever seen someone spinning way way too fast in a gear, like to the point where it causes their rigid bike to bob up and down, compressing the air in the tires, they usually look pretty ridiculous doing this, but if this is how you are pedaling downhill on 1x system, then by all means you might want a 2x system, even though the newest 1x systems address this with larger front chainrings and even larger rear cassettes. This is what is known as "spinning out".

    I'm a pretty fast expert racer and every once and a while I'm fast enough to be comparable to pros. In all of my riding, I've not seen anyone that's going too slow because they are missing out on having higher gears. This is the big benefit of 1x, it cuts out the stuff that just wasn't used/did not make you faster, simplifies the drivetrain significantly, and you even get a few side-benefits like decreased drivetrain wear from not turning tiny 22t rings. 1x was also part of the clutch-derailleur revolution and today's ride was all kinds of mud, literally about every consistency possible, but the thing just stays attached and it keeps shifting.

    1x also makes suspension kinematics much simpler, no longer do they have to worry about two totally different chain-points that will have vastly different characteristics. One of the great things about this is that now even single-pivot bikes can have kinematics that are similar to the best "multi-link" bikes. Even the great specialized has now made their Epic a single-pivot bike, pretty far removed from the horst-link that it used to be.

    And yes, dropper posts are a great addition to a bike and now you can have one attached to your bar or brake lever in the natural position for your thumb.

    I'm not going to say that there's never a use for 2 or 3x, but I have to question those that claim there isn't enough range with a 28 or 30x50+ tooth setup. What is it you are looking for, even easier gears? It wasn't that long ago that we were on 22x32 as the lowest gear, and somehow we survived. You really think you need that big 42-44t ring for mountain biking?
    Last edited by Jayem; 06-08-2018 at 11:21 PM.
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  139. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by uzurpator View Post
    That would be pretty sweet, tbh. Altho for mountain riding I'd prefer 36/22 + 11-36 12 speed with all those sweet 1-tooth jumps on the high gears.

    I'm not butthurt over FD, obviously.
    Shimano FD only support a 10t difference

  140. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    I was thinking 2x12, 42-53, 10-21
    Edgy.

  141. #141
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    For everyone who thinks that racers need more gear range, Shimano said the 45T 11speed cassette was asked by racers who do not need the range of 50+ cassettes, and do not want the extra baggage that comes with it.

  142. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Because even in a race, you really don't use the higher gears all that much. Even if you did make up 3 seconds in the downhill, it's totally eclipsed by what happens everywhere else. Racers are completing races faster than ever and they are doing it on 1x systems. I'm not saying you need to go out and race, but as far as "slowing you down", that's just bunk.

    Have you ever seen someone spinning way way too fast in a gear, like to the point where it causes their rigid bike to bob up and down, compressing the air in the tires, they usually look pretty ridiculous doing this, but if this is how you are pedaling downhill on 1x system, then by all means you might want a 2x system, even though the newest 1x systems address this with larger front chainrings and even larger rear cassettes. This is what is known as "spinning out".

    I'm a pretty fast expert racer and every once and a while I'm fast enough to be comparable to pros. In all of my riding, I've not seen anyone that's going too slow because they are missing out on having higher gears. This is the big benefit of 1x, it cuts out the stuff that just wasn't used/did not make you faster, simplifies the drivetrain significantly, and you even get a few side-benefits like decreased drivetrain wear from not turning tiny 22t rings. 1x was also part of the clutch-derailleur revolution and today's ride was all kinds of mud, literally about every consistency possible, but the thing just stays attached and it keeps shifting.

    1x also makes suspension kinematics much simpler, no longer do they have to worry about two totally different chain-points that will have vastly different characteristics. One of the great things about this is that now even single-pivot bikes can have kinematics that are similar to the best "multi-link" bikes. Even the great specialized has now made their Epic a single-pivot bike, pretty far removed from the horst-link that it used to be.

    And yes, dropper posts are a great addition to a bike and now you can have one attached to your bar or brake lever in the natural position for your thumb.

    I'm not going to say that there's never a use for 2 or 3x, but I have to question those that claim there isn't enough range with a 28 or 30x50+ tooth setup. What is it you are looking for, even easier gears? It wasn't that long ago that we were on 22x32 as the lowest gear, and somehow we survived. You really think you need that big 42-44t ring for mountain biking?
    This pretty well sums up why wide-range 1x is popular and the way Shimano and Sram are going.
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  143. #143
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    Just a note, I meant 42-44t front ring
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  144. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Because even in a race, you really don't use the higher gears all that much. Even if you did make up 3 seconds in the downhill, it's totally eclipsed by what happens everywhere else. Racers are completing races faster than ever and they are doing it on 1x systems. I'm not saying you need to go out and race, but as far as "slowing you down", that's just bunk.

    Have you ever seen someone spinning way way too fast in a gear, like to the point where it causes their rigid bike to bob up and down, compressing the air in the tires, they usually look pretty ridiculous doing this, but if this is how you are pedaling downhill on 1x system, then by all means you might want a 2x system, even though the newest 1x systems address this with larger front chainrings and even larger rear cassettes. This is what is known as "spinning out".

    I'm a pretty fast expert racer and every once and a while I'm fast enough to be comparable to pros. In all of my riding, I've not seen anyone that's going too slow because they are missing out on having higher gears. This is the big benefit of 1x, it cuts out the stuff that just wasn't used/did not make you faster, simplifies the drivetrain significantly, and you even get a few side-benefits like decreased drivetrain wear from not turning tiny 22t rings. 1x was also part of the clutch-derailleur revolution and today's ride was all kinds of mud, literally about every consistency possible, but the thing just stays attached and it keeps shifting.

    1x also makes suspension kinematics much simpler, no longer do they have to worry about two totally different chain-points that will have vastly different characteristics. One of the great things about this is that now even single-pivot bikes can have kinematics that are similar to the best "multi-link" bikes. Even the great specialized has now made their Epic a single-pivot bike, pretty far removed from the horst-link that it used to be.

    And yes, dropper posts are a great addition to a bike and now you can have one attached to your bar or brake lever in the natural position for your thumb.

    I'm not going to say that there's never a use for 2 or 3x, but I have to question those that claim there isn't enough range with a 28 or 30x50+ tooth setup. What is it you are looking for, even easier gears? It wasn't that long ago that we were on 22x32 as the lowest gear, and somehow we survived. You really think you need that big 42-44t ring for mountain biking?
    I agree with this...long time 3X rider and latest bike is 1X12 GX Eagle. For the trails I ride, the older 3X large front chainring was never used and served as a bash guard. I love the new 1X12 but I'm finding 12 speed is overkill. I hardly ever use the smallest 3-4 gears on the cassette and the HUGE big gear is plenty low for the toughest uphill grinds.

    Your choice of terrain and fitness level dictates what 'tranny' is best for you. I'm always on technical singletrack NE trails so there's not a lot of high speed riding but I do push hard though some pretty boney terrain that requires regular use of lower gears. I think a 1X10 would be more than adequate for me.
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  145. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    I'm not going to say that there's never a use for 2 or 3x, but I have to question those that claim there isn't enough range with a 28 or 30x50+ tooth setup. What is it you are looking for, even easier gears?
    It's not all about the range. Although, I can imagine some people wanting that 600% range. For me it is about gear selection. When I ride actual mountains, I use six of my eleven gears.

    I would use more, but that pretty much covers the range I require. Years ago I had a double with a road cassette. I had more or less the same range, but I would use 12 gears out of 20 I had at my disposal. If I could switch my mondraker to a double, I would. But it does not take an FD.

    If I'm riding around my house, I can use a 1x with a 11-3x cassette. I would usually configure my bike to be "1x" on the big ring for my local trails with a granny for those long climbs.

    This current 1x thing, along with its "this bike can't use and FD" pretty much forces me to use it, and I don't like it.

    And yes, I know, market forces, people have decided with their wallets. It does not mean I need to like it.

  146. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by uzurpator View Post
    It's not all about the range. Although, I can imagine some people wanting that 600% range. For me it is about gear selection. When I ride actual mountains, I use six of my eleven gears.

    I would use more, but that pretty much covers the range I require. Years ago I had a double with a road cassette. I had more or less the same range, but I would use 12 gears out of 20 I had at my disposal. If I could switch my mondraker to a double, I would. But it does not take an FD.

    If I'm riding around my house, I can use a 1x with a 11-3x cassette. I would usually configure my bike to be "1x" on the big ring for my local trails with a granny for those long climbs.

    This current 1x thing, along with its "this bike can't use and FD" pretty much forces me to use it, and I don't like it.

    And yes, I know, market forces, people have decided with their wallets. It does not mean I need to like it.
    To me, it's seamless. My 2012 SJ came with 1x and I noticed it for about a minute, then seamless. I just roll with the punches. I think some folks bitch about new stuff/change just to do it. How can Sram Eagle for example not work for you? I just don't get it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by uzurpator View Post
    It's not all about the range. Although, I can imagine some people wanting that 600% range. For me it is about gear selection. When I ride actual mountains, I use six of my eleven gears.

    I would use more, but that pretty much covers the range I require. Years ago I had a double with a road cassette. I had more or less the same range, but I would use 12 gears out of 20 I had at my disposal. If I could switch my mondraker to a double, I would. But it does not take an FD.

    If I'm riding around my house, I can use a 1x with a 11-3x cassette. I would usually configure my bike to be "1x" on the big ring for my local trails with a granny for those long climbs.

    This current 1x thing, along with its "this bike can't use and FD" pretty much forces me to use it, and I don't like it.

    And yes, I know, market forces, people have decided with their wallets. It does not mean I need to like it.
    What don't you like about it? That it has five more gears than you use?
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  148. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by uzurpator View Post
    It's not all about the range. Although, I can imagine some people wanting that 600% range. For me it is about gear selection. When I ride actual mountains, I use six of my eleven gears.
    Which gears do you use?
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  149. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparticus View Post
    What don't you like about it? That it has five more gears than you use?
    =sParty
    I don't like having a heavy piece of metal attached to my rear hub of which I use half. No, I'm not going to buy $200 wear items and yes, I like my suspension to work reliably.

    I don't like being forced to use looong cage derailleurs. I can set up eagle ranged drivetrain with a zee RD and it just requires a smigeon of trigger discipline.

    I don't like the absolute randomness of when an N/W ring is going to drop a chain.

    I don't like, when I want to get a few pedal strokes in, being forced to ride at the least tensioned chain.

    I don't like the absolutely horrible chainline on the lowest gears.

    I don't like that the lightweight-ish cassettes, if I choose to buy one, use quick wearing aluminium on the most used cogs. When range extenders were a thing I could murder one in three-four months. Try to convince me to buy $350 eagle cassette three times per year - I dare you

    I don't like that I have a selection of 3 fast wearing gears ( 11/13/15 ) instead of 6-7 when I go fast. Yes. I am weary of my cadence. Having that 2 teeth jump at the high end is especially cancerous.

    Which gears do you use?
    I have 32 front and 11-50 at the back. About 95% of my time in the mountains is spent on the 42 and 50 when going up and 13-15-18-21 when going down.

    If I choose to ride around the house, then I almost solely use 11-13-15-18-21, the rest is just spinning metal and I miss the 12 and 14, to be honest.

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    I'm curious about backwards and cross-compatibility. Forgive the speculation if this was clarified in the PR, I didn't see it.

    Shimano says the 11S 10-45 is the 12S 10-50, less the biggest sprocket. The XTR shifters can be configured for 11S or 12S. By implication (if we assume even sprocket spacing), the 11S and 12S cassettes have the same sprocket width and pitch.

    But what are they? I see a few possibilities:

    A) Same as existing Shimano/SRAM 11S. Existing 11S derailleur/shifter combinations would work with the new 11S cassettes and vice versa.

    B) Different than existing Shimano/SRAM 11S, but not the same as SRAM 12S. No backwards or cross-compatibility with anything.

    C) Same as SRAM 12S. Cross-compatible with SRAM cassettes, not backwards compatible with Shimano 11S.

    I'm betting on A or B. Probably A, though if this is the case, I wonder where they're finding room to extend the cassette. Thoughts?

    EDIT: Redacted notes about old shifter compatibility, this'll depend entirely on the pull and movement ratios of the new shifters and derailleurs.
    Last edited by alexdi; 06-10-2018 at 09:20 AM.

  151. #151
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    I am actually curious about this as well. Moreover, I am also curious if they keep the dyna-sys pull ratio.

    B) would be a hell of a feat to pull off tho. They have the same space as anyone else, and the cogs are so closely crammed that even if they try to make it incompatible, it is going to be very, very close.

    You already can mix/match 11 speed campagnolo and shimano systems. And you can mix/match 10 and 11 speed stuff freely. I am almost certain that all 12 speed systems are going to to be effectively cross-compatible because there is simply no way to do anything but.

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    It's A. Shimano has noted in their presentations that they widened the cassette by dishing the biggest cog further toward the spokes. This isn't ideal unless one of your goals was to keep the spacing the same as their 11spd stuff.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 92gli View Post
    It's A. Shimano has noted in their presentations that they widened the cassette by dishing the biggest cog further toward the spokes. This isn't ideal unless one of your goals was to keep the spacing the same as their 11spd stuff.
    Did they specifically say that all they did was hang another cog on the back of the cassette, though? Because, while widening towards the spokes was pretty much mandatory, it does not preclude also tightening up the cog spacing. This is how SRAM did Eagle, the 10t didn't move but the individual spacing tightened up and the 50t was positioned off to the inside of the previous 42t location. I read way too many takes on this stuff to remember all the details but I got the impression M9100 was not going to be compatible with any existing Shimano standards, but might be close enough to 12s SRAM for some cross compatibility. The new 11s cassette is kind of a super-oddball by being essentially a 12 speed cassette with a missing big cog. And possibly the most enticing to me.

  154. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by 92gli View Post
    It's A. Shimano has noted in their presentations that they widened the cassette by dishing the biggest cog further toward the spokes.
    Another reason in favor of the super boost 157 rear hub standard.
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  155. #155
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    In my mind, the 1x drivetrain is the worst drivetrain ever created for mountain bikes except for all the others.
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    Now I'm leaning toward B or C.

    https://bike.shimano.com/en-EU/produ...-CN900-11.html
    https://bike.shimano.com/en-EU/produ...-CN910-12.html

    Just eyeballing the two quick-links, the 12S version has narrower pins. It's looking like that 11S 10-45 (which is, I agree, very compelling) won't be compatible with anything except new XTR.

  157. #157
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    I'll never understand the folks that resist time and time again drivetrain upgrades over time. Here it is. I started riding mtbs in 1991. At that time, my first mtb, a GT, had a triple with Shimano rapid fire shifters. 24/36/46 non-compact I believe with a 11-28 7 speed cassette. Horrible. Dropped chains, chainsuck, and OH MY GOD A 24/28 GRANNY. Went to thumbshifters, gripshift (shitshow with HD springs, Bassworms, and Rollamagigs), and then back to Shimano rapid-fire in the mid-90s on a compact 8-speed Shimano XT triple setup with 22/32/44 chainrings and an upgraded 11-32 cassette for a super low granny gear. I went from that straight to a singlespeed in the late 2000s with a 32/18 ratio. Then, back to gears in 2012 with a radical new setup called "1x". I think I spent about 5 minutes on any one of these figuring them out and then forgetting about them. The 1x was 10-speed with a 33t ring and 11-36 cassette and was superior to the systems I had in the past except for climbing in the moutains. Dropped to a 32t ring and a went up to a 11-40 cassette and solved it. Now I'm on Eagle...it's the best drivetrain I've ever had in terms of range and precision. I never had 9 speed or 11 speed or a 2x...skipped them. I have no idea why anyone would want to use a FD ever again. I run a standard 2x on my road bike and in that duty, it's great but never again on a mtb. Hell, I'm on 1x on my gravel/CX bike too. Expensive cassettes? take care of your $hit and change the chain when it hits 0.5 and you won't replace them that often (2 years?). The newer stuff lasts so much longer than any of the 7/8 stuff I had.
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  158. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by TiGeo View Post
    I'll never understand the folks that resist time and time again drivetrain upgrades over time. Here it is. I started riding mtbs in 1991. At that time, my first mtb, a GT, had a triple with Shimano rapid fire shifters. 24/36/46 non-compact I believe with a 11-28 7 speed cassette. Horrible. Dropped chains, chainsuck, and OH MY GOD A 24/28 GRANNY. Went to thumbshifters, gripshift (shitshow with HD springs, Bassworms, and Rollamagigs), and then back to Shimano rapid-fire in the mid-90s on a compact 8-speed Shimano XT triple setup with 22/32/44 chainrings and an upgraded 11-32 cassette for a super low granny gear. I went from that straight to a singlespeed in the late 2000s with a 32/18 ratio. Then, back to gears in 2012 with a radical new setup called "1x". I think I spent about 5 minutes on any one of these figuring them out and then forgetting about them. The 1x was 10-speed with a 33t ring and 11-36 cassette and was superior to the systems I had in the past except for climbing in the moutains. Dropped to a 32t ring and a went up to a 11-40 cassette and solved it. Now I'm on Eagle...it's the best drivetrain I've ever had in terms of range and precision. I never had 9 speed or 11 speed or a 2x...skipped them. I have no idea why anyone would want to use a FD ever again. I run a standard 2x on my road bike and in that duty, it's great but never again on a mtb. Hell, I'm on 1x on my gravel/CX bike too. Expensive cassettes? take care of your $hit and change the chain when it hits 0.5 and you won't replace them that often (2 years?). The newer stuff lasts so much longer than any of the 7/8 stuff I had.
    I think skepticism is good and helps to offset the propaganda put out with "improvements". It helps keep some perspective.

    Going from old 3 and 2x systems to 1x11 was a huge paradigm shift, significantly lighter, simpler, using some new wizardry like clutch derailleurs, narrow-wide, the one-piece cassettes, etc. Compared to what you were riding before, this was a pretty big change. At the same time, the marketing was heavy and every bike manufacturer seemed to spec this on their highest end builds, with some even dropping shimano XTR. It had a huge effect in the industry for sure, but the biggest change was simply riding. No more dropped chains. No more redundant gears. More space on the handlebar, more simplicity, etc.

    Then look at Eagle or this new Shimano. Is that really the same magnitude of change? The manufacturers would like you to think so, so you go out and buy it, but riding day to day, is it really? Of course not. Widened the range a bit and added another gear. Nice, but not really any big change there.

    There are countless examples we could make here IMO, where we look at the marginal or incremental changes vs. the big revolutionary ones. Some skepticism and criticism helps keep it in perspective.
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  159. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by TiGeo View Post
    I have no idea why anyone would want to use a FD ever again.
    Me neither, though I wouldn't go so far as to tell other people what they should run. I simply don't get it.

    I started riding off-road in '85 with a 3x5 drivetrain, thumbshifters, no index. I don't recall the gearing but it had a Sugino triple. I should go look... my ancient '84 Diamond Back Mean Streak is on display in the Westfir Lodge (Oregon). Haven't seen that bike in years. I did so many hard front wheel landings trying to learn to wheelie on it that I bent the steerer, which wasn't even cro-moly -- merely high tensile steel. Back then bike manufacturers weren't geared up to produce quality tubesets for this new thing that took years to even be called mountain biking. Bike mags called them clunkers, fat tire bikes, off-road bikes, ballooners.

    I digress...

    My hatred for the front derailleur really began when I suffered miserable chainsuck on a '00 Gary Fisher X-Caliber. Remember Shark Teeth? And fins? Sheesh. Chainsuck continued with my Salsa Big Mama (terrible bike, really) and inferior front shifting was a constant throughout the years on everything I rode. I'm sure someone will come along and tell me I don't know how to set up a FD but that's not true. Maybe FDs have gotten better recently but I don't know and don't care. I'll never forget climbing Hardesty Mountain on my '11 Turner Sultan (2x) and trying to drop from the large ring to the granny while grinding up a 20-something percent grade. Yeah, I know how to relieve pressure while making the shift, it's just that the damn thing never would make the shift.

    I cried tears of joy when the wide range 1x drivetrain appeared on the market. Personally I'll never look back.
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  160. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by TiGeo View Post
    I'll never understand...
    OK...I went through 2x/3x & 8/9/10 spd stuff, too. Yes, stuff is better in general. For some, it's cost. Others fear change. I just have too many spare parts (mostly 10spd).

    Quote Originally Posted by TiGeo View Post
    Then, back to gears in 2012 with a radical new setup called "1x". Dropped to a 32t ring and a went up to a 11-40 cassette and solved it.
    That's just about what I run on one bike (30t/11-40). I like it pretty well.

    Quote Originally Posted by TiGeo View Post
    I have no idea why anyone would want to use a FD ever again.
    Have you tried the new Shimano side swing FD? It really is nearly as good as rear shifting. And it still works with my old 10spd shifter/chain? Yes, please. And since they're not en vogue, FD prices are a bargain. I believe if this were around 10 years ago we'd be asking why anyone would even want to go 1x.
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    The latest wide range are an incremental improvement, but still an improvement.

    I also started on 3X which I converted immediately to 2X + bash and then to 1X. Never looked back and I don't miss chain suck a tiny bit. Now with the big cassettes we don't have to hack it.

    I have no idea why someone thinks 3X with the big saw disc right next to your leg is a good idea. I have seen it in action (fortunately not on my leg) and it was ugly.

    Sure maybe there is some corner case that requires 2X on a mountain bike. But it's not my case or anyone I ride with. 10x42 cassette is a bit short for me occasionally, but I can totally live with it. Just a little annoyance here and there, nothing to really complain.

    I will be pretty happy with the 10x45, but if I can choose, 50/51. Why not? I will not have Strava KOMs on the climbs either way

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    Quote Originally Posted by noapathy View Post
    I believe if this were around 10 years ago we'd be asking why anyone would even want to go 1x.
    And the answer would still be chainsuck.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparticus View Post
    And the answer would still be chainsuck.
    =sParty
    I really can't remember the last time I've had chainsuck on any of my bikes (including 2 with 2x and the remaining 3x hardtail). But then I check for wear and replace stuff before it's worn down to dust.

    I'm not saying 1x is bad, just that it's overrated.
    :nono: :thumbsup:

  164. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by noapathy View Post

    Have you tried the new Shimano side swing FD? It really is nearly as good as rear shifting. And it still works with my old 10spd shifter/chain? Yes, please. And since they're not en vogue, FD prices are a bargain. I believe if this were around 10 years ago we'd be asking why anyone would even want to go 1x.
    Well, if it's really that good, it's only about 20 years too late.

    FDs have been a weak point for a long time. The SRAM micro-adjust front was one of the better ways to manage it for a while. Even if set up perfectly on a 3x, you'd get chain rub at the extremes and you tried to balance it all out with the ability to downshift to the granny, which as stated above, it tended to not want to do under power, as in it would stubbornly stay there and kind of jam-you into a situation where you get "stuck" because you can't let up.

    I generally stopped using the FD over a few years. I realized it was faster to walk up a hill than spin in a granny gear combo like 22-36 and I made it my goal to always push as hard and far as I could in the middle ring. Eventually, I totally forgot about the granny gear and never used it. At this point the FD was just a chain-guide to me. This was a double-edged sword though, because although the conditioning was good, the FSR bikes I was on punished me more in the middle ring with much less anti-squat, so the harder I pedaled, the more the bike "fought back" to destroy my efficiency. Eventually moving to bikes that didn't have this efficiency limitation, I was home-free, so to speak.

    But back to the derailleur, mechanically it was never well designed. The distance a FD had to move per "click" just never worked out right, front gears did not shift like rear gears and shimano had to resort to all sorts of chainring pinning/ramping wizardry to try and make up for this, but even still, they were marginal. They really killed themselves (FDs) and we are all better for it with 1x. Hell, I just did a gravel-grinder last night, where everyone is on CX or GG type bikes. I think I got top 5 on my fat-bike, the main problem I had was wind-resistance above about 15-20mph, where I had to draft or I had no chance and would get passed, but my 32x11-28 "1x" system was not the reason I couldn't go fast enough, it was plenty of gearing even for these roads up and down. I think the gearing issues are far more perceived than reality.
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  165. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by noapathy View Post
    I really can't remember the last time I've had chainsuck on any of my bikes (including 2 with 2x and the remaining 3x hardtail). But then I check for wear and replace stuff before it's worn down to dust.

    I'm not saying 1x is bad, just that it's overrated.
    I respect your opinion and your right to set up your bikes in whatever configuration appeals to you, good sir.

    Meanwhile I'll do likewise. Hope we get to ride together one of these days.
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  166. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by tigeo
    I'll never understand the folks that resist time and time again drivetrain upgrades over time.
    Maybe because at some point they reach a setup they are content with and see no reason to change when the industry tries, time and time again, to make them?

    I have started with a 3x8, in which I quickly replaced the cassette from 11-32 to 13-26, because I didn't use the range. Then through the years I arrived at my preferred setup - which is a double on which the range on the big ring covers ~80% of my riding, so the FD works as a chain device and the granny is for those extended climbs and riding in heavy muck.

    My only complaint here, is that the bike biz is taking that option away from me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparticus View Post
    I'm sure someone will come along and tell me I don't know how to set up a FD but that's not true.
    ...trying to drop from the large ring to the granny while grinding up a 20-something percent grade.
    Those two things are mutually exclusive.

    2x is 1x with a granny. On an average mountain ride you shift a total of six times maybe, when preparing for a major climb. Otherwise you stay on the big ring.

    Quote Originally Posted by CrozCountry
    I have no idea why someone thinks 3X with the big saw disc right next to your leg is a good idea.
    People ride different bikes on different trails in a different manner. 3x is 2x with an overgear. Even shimano considers the 32 in the middle to be the main gear to use. Some people need, or think they need, that big ring. I'm not going to claim they are wrong because I don't share that opinion.

    Granted, 3x on a major enduro rig with 180mm travel is more of a hindrance then an asset, but not all people ride those.

    Quote Originally Posted by NoApathy
    I believe if this were around 10 years ago we'd be asking why anyone would even want to go 1x.
    1x was always present, at least for the Park 24/7 type of people. I experimented with 1x and extended range back in 2009 ( 11-39 custom CNCd cassette, short cage mech, 32T ring ).

  167. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    But back to the derailleur, mechanically it was never well designed. The distance a FD had to move per "click" just never worked out right, front gears did not shift like rear gears and shimano had to resort to all sorts of chainring pinning/ramping wizardry to try and make up for this, but even still, they were marginal.
    FD works on tensioned chain, and as such, it is physically impossible for it to shift as efficiently as an RD. Shift ramps, gates and pins on both front and rear are almost identical, with the exception for the front rings being also pinned to pick the chain up.

    The issue with the FD is that people had their heads filled with nonsense about cross-chaining ( does not seem to be an issue now, for some reason ) and duplicate ratios, so they tried to shift the FD as often as an RD, which is, surprise, not going to work.

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    I also started with a 3x and went fully 1x and I love it.

    The truth is, even the most hardcore lovers of 3x and 2x drivetrains that constanly say that they need the gear range or better shifting what so ever, almost don't use the front mech when they are riding.

    I have friends that cling hard to their 3x and 2x and when we are riding they don't even use it.
    Almost all the time riding they are in the second gear or in biggest gear ( 3x and 2x )
    When I ask them "Sooo when are you using it?"
    I get the answer "Well, I actually don't need it....but it's nice to have it"

    I mean WTF.
    I don't really care as long as they like it and it works for them, but it's kind of stupid.

    Like the Shapeshifter on the Canyon Strive.
    No one needs it, no one wants it and people only using it to see if it's still works.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OneTrustMan View Post
    The truth is, even the most hardcore lovers of 3x and 2x drivetrains that constanly say that they need the gear range or better shifting what so ever, almost don't use the front mech when they are riding.
    That might be truth for you and your friends, but that would stretch to say "it's like this for everyone". Thing is, even on XC world cup, where 1x actually works, you see bunch of people (in top 10) who ride 2x.
    I'm way more into xc then in any other riding, and I while 1x gives you range (at insane prices) of 2x, it's still not same. Changing 1 gear and switching for 8 tooth is not really same as changing 1 gear and switching for 3 tooth. If you don't believe this, ask roadies why they prefer 1 tooth difference between chainrings on their cassettes. So min and max ration is not only thing you want to see.
    Personally I'm on 2x and 1x is simply not going to work for me. I don't ride XC races (if I do, it's XCM), nor DH races, I don't have mechanic that would prepare proper ratios for certain track, and I certainly don't have Shimano or Sram as sponsor, to get me new 100eur chain, 300+eur cassette and 100eur chainring every few months. And pretending 1x doesn't abuse material more then 2x is simply naive. So 2x is must for me, and honestly on my rides, I use both of front chainrings about equal time, as I have pretty much every ride that has 25+% uphill and at least some long downhill where you actually pedal at 45km/h.
    Primoz

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    When is di2 xtr 12speed being released?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparticus View Post
    And the answer would still be chainsuck.
    =sParty

    I've never had chainsuck on any of my multi-chainring bikes. I fixed a lot of chainsuck issues while working in the shop and they were almost always due to worn parts.


    Quote Originally Posted by primoz View Post
    Thing is, even on XC world cup, where 1x actually works, you see bunch of people (in top 10) who ride 2x.

    What wc pros are still riding 2x?*I haven't seen any.
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    Yes, which WC pros are riding 2x? I can't imagine any at this point. What are "insane prices"? An Eagle GX complete group kit is $450 and 11 speed wide range applications are essentially a <$100 Sunrace cassette.
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    Quote Originally Posted by uzurpator View Post

    2x is 1x with a granny. On an average mountain ride you shift a total of six times maybe, when preparing for a major climb. Otherwise you stay on the big ring.

    Maybe you do, but have you ridden with other riders before? I assure you a large amount of riders drop to the granny at the slightest incline. We tend to lose perspective when all we do is ride with faster/more serious people, but there are lots of people out there riding trails that do this far more than 6 times a ride.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Maybe you do, but have you ridden with other riders before? I assure you a large amount of riders drop to the granny at the slightest incline. We tend to lose perspective when all we do is ride with faster/more serious people, but there are lots of people out there riding trails that do this far more than 6 times a ride.
    I'll give you an example of this...my son. He rides a Specy Pitch with an inexpensive triple. He always uses his granny and loses his chain ALL THE TIME - now to be fair, he is somewhat inexperienced and the nuances of riding with a FD are likely lost on a 13 year old but still, lots of dropped chain/chain suck. 1x would be a much better choice for him and at some point 1x11 wide range to keep a crawl gear will find it's way on his bike.
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  175. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Well, if it's really that good, it's only about 20 years too late.

    FDs have been a weak point for a long time. The SRAM micro-adjust front was one of the better ways to manage it for a while. Even if set up perfectly on a 3x, you'd get chain rub at the extremes and you tried to balance it all out with the ability to downshift to the granny, which as stated above, it tended to not want to do under power, as in it would stubbornly stay there and kind of jam-you into a situation where you get "stuck" because you can't let up.

    I generally stopped using the FD over a few years. I realized it was faster to walk up a hill than spin in a granny gear combo like 22-36 and I made it my goal to always push as hard and far as I could in the middle ring. Eventually, I totally forgot about the granny gear and never used it. At this point the FD was just a chain-guide to me. This was a double-edged sword though, because although the conditioning was good, the FSR bikes I was on punished me more in the middle ring with much less anti-squat, so the harder I pedaled, the more the bike "fought back" to destroy my efficiency. Eventually moving to bikes that didn't have this efficiency limitation, I was home-free, so to speak.

    But back to the derailleur, mechanically it was never well designed. The distance a FD had to move per "click" just never worked out right, front gears did not shift like rear gears and shimano had to resort to all sorts of chainring pinning/ramping wizardry to try and make up for this, but even still, they were marginal. They really killed themselves (FDs) and we are all better for it with 1x. Hell, I just did a gravel-grinder last night, where everyone is on CX or GG type bikes. I think I got top 5 on my fat-bike, the main problem I had was wind-resistance above about 15-20mph, where I had to draft or I had no chance and would get passed, but my 32x11-28 "1x" system was not the reason I couldn't go fast enough, it was plenty of gearing even for these roads up and down. I think the gearing issues are far more perceived than reality.
    Totally agree!

    Yup, I don't think we disagree on a fundamental level. They still have room for improvement since as smooth as the side swing is, it's still not there yet...but it's a LOT better, finally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparticus View Post
    I respect your opinion and your right to set up your bikes in whatever configuration appeals to you, good sir.

    Meanwhile I'll do likewise. Hope we get to ride together one of these days.
    =sParty
    And that's why we'd have no probs getting along. As much as I defend my own equipment choices, in the end this whole thing is all about getting out on 2 wheels for a bit of fun. The rest is just noise.

    Yup yup!
    :nono: :thumbsup:

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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    I've never had chainsuck on any of my multi-chainring bikes. I fixed a lot of chainsuck issues while working in the shop and they were almost always due to worn parts.
    I agree that chainsuck is most commonly a symptom of worn parts but not always. Salsa's Big Mama suffered chainsuck by design which, in my mind, is why it was replaced the following year by the Spearfish. Several in my local ride group bought BMs (ha!) because we got sweet deals, they all suffered chainsuck miserably right out of the box.

    Another factor that encourages chainsuck on a reasonable functional drivetrain is winter sludge here in the PNWet. Even on a drivetrain that's got plenty of life left in it, extreme muck & sludge can cause persistent chainsuck.

    Today's 1x drivetrain with n/w chainring = adios forever to chainsuck regardless of conditions.

    Quote Originally Posted by uzurpator View Post
    My only complaint here, is that the bike biz is taking that option away from me.
    I totally respect this.

    Quote Originally Posted by uzurpator View Post
    Those two things are mutually exclusive.
    Um, no they're not. You nearly had me 'til you said this. The construction of the Sultan's seat tube / BB cluster didn't allow adequate room for the FD to collapse enough to pull the chain over. Sure this was probably the fault of frame design, not the FD per se, but in the end I didn't care -- the damn thing simply didn't work. So I turned to a 1x drivetrain -- problem solved. Simply & elegantly.

    Quote Originally Posted by uzurpator View Post
    2x is 1x with a granny. On an average mountain ride you shift a total of six times maybe, when preparing for a major climb. Otherwise you stay on the big ring.
    I believe you're saying "you" when you mean to say "I".
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    Quote Originally Posted by TiGeo View Post
    Yes, which WC pros are riding 2x? I can't imagine any at this point. What are "insane prices"? An Eagle GX complete group kit is $450 and 11 speed wide range applications are essentially a <$100 Sunrace cassette.
    Mathias Fluckiger: "Usually I prefer a single ring....but on flat courses with steep uphills as well then I choose the double ring in the front"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lWBr6PJJ1c

    The front ring shift is worth 3 rear shifts - great for steep uphills or a high speed entry to a momentum killing tight turn. This is one feature that the single ring evangelists would prefer didn't exist.

    The best way to tell if an opinionated person doesn't know both sides of the issue is to observe if he can articulate the advantages for the opposing viewpoint. If he can't list even one, you can be sure he doesn't know what he's talking about.

  178. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schulze View Post
    Mathias Fluckiger: "Usually I prefer a single ring....but on flat courses with steep uphills as well then I choose the double ring in the front"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lWBr6PJJ1c

    The front ring shift is worth 3 rear shifts - great for steep uphills or a high speed entry to a momentum killing tight turn. This is one feature that the single ring evangelists would prefer didn't exist.

    The best way to tell if an opinionated person doesn't know both sides of the issue is to observe if he can articulate the advantages for the opposing viewpoint. If he can't list even one, you can be sure he doesn't know what he's talking about.
    I am very well versed in how a multi-ring set up works and used them for many years. I fully understand the issues surrounding single ring setups as well. We used to just jam/pull that left shifter to get the granny or the big ring to pound out at the top of a steep climb. I like my road bike's double for this reason...drop the front and grab 3 out back at the same time to maintain cadence and have room to get the granny...FDs are all about anticipating future shifts. For 1x, heavier cassettes that are more money. You loose the weight of the FD, front shifter, and chainrings so should be a wash. I use my left side for my dropper remote without having it interfere with a shifter. With Eagle I shift A LOT..click click click no doubt! This is in contrast to chain drops, mis-shifts, etc. that were common with the multi-ring set ups of yesteryear that I rode extensively. Shimano FDs shift very good nowadays and I have no issue either 1) using one or 2) working on/adjusting them. I like the newer 1x stuff...a lot..and am hardly a single ring evangelist..just a long time rider that likes the current single-ring systems. Many of these 1x vs. multi discussions occur between folks that have no real-world experience on the opposing viewpoint's system. I have spent time on both. Have you? Also, it's all good and folks will ride what they want obviously.
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  179. #179
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    I should have noted that the "evangelist" comment was not directed at you, TiGeo.

    Yes, I had a 1x XT8000 on my main hard tail for about six months. Still have a couple Shimano 1x rings, but I put the 2x back on it. I've put 20 months of riding on the 2x on that bike, at least once a week, never dropped a chain or had to even adjust it. It just works.

    A lot of guys started on 3x, which was mostly a 1x on the middle ring. The small ring was too small and the big ring was too big. Shimano 10t difference 2x and smooth shifting technology is a totally different animal. You can use it as a stand alone shift - no double shifting needed.

    It isn't heavier; it isn't more expensive; it isn't unreliable. Like Fluckinger said, it's nice to have on certain terrain.

  180. #180
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    Man, let's wait for the NX Eagle to be released this week, so anyone can have a 12spd drivetrain
    The Sram 11-50 cassette is for the shimano hub I guess.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Schulze View Post
    I should have noted that the "evangelist" comment was not directed at you, TiGeo.

    Yes, I had a 1x XT8000 on my main hard tail for about six months. Still have a couple Shimano 1x rings, but I put the 2x back on it. I've put 20 months of riding on the 2x on that bike, at least once a week, never dropped a chain or had to even adjust it. It just works.

    A lot of guys started on 3x, which was mostly a 1x on the middle ring. The small ring was too small and the big ring was too big. Shimano 10t difference 2x and smooth shifting technology is a totally different animal. You can use it as a stand alone shift - no double shifting needed.

    It isn't heavier; it isn't more expensive; it isn't unreliable. Like Fluckinger said, it's nice to have on certain terrain.
    I like your description of 3x as beting mostly 1x....that's exactly how I remember it. I kept it in the 32 middle and used the granny for the lowest 1-2 cogs and the big ring for the highest cogs...I actually used my big ring as much as possible when I had a triple. I also understand that the Shimano 2x systems are very good/smooth/error-free. The one big thing I notice about Eagle is that when you crest a hill and need to stand on it and accelerate you need to shift a lot and are often in too low a gear where the multi-ring setups allowed that one shift with the FD.
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    Memory lane...?

    My '89 Fisher Paragon no longer has the FD, but still the 3X; hasn't moved off the middle ring in I don't know how long. Where I ride it...works fine for a seven speed.

    BTW...it also still runs a shark fin.

    Now for a updated bike and drivetrain!

    Zero issues with the XT equipment.
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  183. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schulze View Post
    Mathias Fluckiger: "Usually I prefer a single ring....but on flat courses with steep uphills as well then I choose the double ring in the front"

    Well that is a Shimano ad so I view his comment with a bit of skepticism, it might be the truth but I'd be interested to know how often he actually lines up with 2 chainrings.
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    https://outpostrichmond.com/blogs/ne...inally-went-1x

    My LBS...

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
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  185. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by his LBS
    Using a gear inch calculation chart I determined that the range on my double was 20.65Ē on the low end and 100.35Ē on the high end. Thatís a big range. When you use the formula Sram uses to hype up the range of their ďEagleĒ 12-speed system it sounds even better. My old double gave me a range 719%! Sure thatís far better than the 500% that a Sram Eagle cassette paired with a single ring gives? Right?
    His double gave him 100.35/20.65=485% range. Not even close to 719%. This his entire diatribe is bunk.

    I bet he enjoys his new bike tho.

  186. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by uzurpator View Post
    His double gave him 100.35/20.65=485% range. Not even close to 719%. This his entire diatribe is bunk.

    I bet he enjoys his new bike tho.

    Yeah I was wondering about that too, the Eagle drivetrain actually has a bit more range than his old 2x.
    I brake for stinkbugs

  187. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by Overspeed View Post
    When is di2 xtr 12speed being released?
    I've not seen any mention of it at all, no prototype spy shots either.

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  188. #188
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    Double post
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    Quote Originally Posted by TiGeo View Post
    https://outpostrichmond.com/blogs/ne...inally-went-1x

    My LBS...

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
    "I was convinced that the 38/24 combination of chainrings was the perfect mate to the cassette cogs on my rear wheel that ranged from 11 to 34."

    He's on 10 speed, and those front rings don't take advantage of rhythm gearing. He should have been on 38/28 or 36/26.

    "Immediately I noticed how crisp and precise the shifting was."

    Amazing. Replacing worn parts with new parts gives good performance.

    "My old double gave me a range 719%! "

    Math is hard.

    "The real icing on the cake was not having to even think about the shift to lower gears. No quick decision to shift chainrings or not."

    Such a mental burden lifted. How did he ever cope before?

    I wonder if anyone has ever considered going to 1x pedal drive? It would help not having to think of which pedal to push. Just push the right one only. Much simpler. The left leg would then just rest the whole time. It was vestigial anyway.

  190. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schulze View Post

    I wonder if anyone has ever considered going to 1x pedal drive? It would help not having to think of which pedal to push. Just push the right one only. Much simpler. The left leg would then just rest the whole time. It was vestigial anyway.
    I need at least 3 pedals.
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  191. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    I need at least 3 pedals.
    His friends call him Tripod.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    I need at least 3 pedals.
    I want the whole flower.
    :nono: :thumbsup:

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    Quote Originally Posted by Schulze View Post
    "The real icing on the cake was not having to even think about the shift to lower gears. No quick decision to shift chainrings or not."

    Such a mental burden lifted. How did he ever cope before?
    That's something I don't understand either. Ok I know average IQ is going down, and days of average IQ being 100 are long gone, but even now when obviously average MTB rider has IQ of 40, it really shouldn't be so damn hard to change gears. I never got this "now cycling is fun as I don't need to constantly think which shifter to press to change gears". Really? It's really so hard for some to change goddamn gears? But then again, if someone's intelligence is on level of gold fish, then I assume 1x is perfect solution. Or as you wrote, even better... 1x pedal drive
    Primoz

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    Quote Originally Posted by primoz View Post
    it really shouldn't be so damn hard to change gears. I never got this "now cycling is fun as I don't need to constantly think which shifter to press to change gears". Really? It's really so hard for some to change goddamn gears?
    I've never heard anyone complain about this. Only about how miserably FDs work.
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  195. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparticus View Post
    I've never heard anyone complain about this. Only about how miserably FDs work.
    =sParty
    Guy who Schulze quoted was relived because he doesn't need to think anymore how to change gears. For rest, I really don't feel like searching forum to provide that, but any 1x vs. 2x thread will do to find out one of main reasons for 1x is "no need to think and worry anymore how to change gears".
    Primoz

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    Quote Originally Posted by smoothmoose View Post
    The group looks sick. But it feel too little too late - especially since they don't have an answer for GX Eagle with XT and/or SLX groupo. Too much leap of faith for both OEMs and consumers to swap out everything for yet another standard.
    I think SRAM left the door open with their crappy brakes.

    I've got bikes with Code RSC, Code R, and Guide R, and have found none of them to be stellar. Despite solid performance from X01 and GX drivetrains on the three bikes, my next rig (an XC race bike in a year or two) will most definitely be full XTR, preferably Di2.

  197. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparticus View Post
    I've never heard anyone complain about this. Only about how miserably FDs work.
    =sParty
    Here's the latest iteration I'm aware of. Slightly amusing.
    :nono: :thumbsup:

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    If you worked in a shop during the FD hayday (1990s) you will have been aware that yes, the FD was a very confusing bit of gear and I spent lots of time during bike sales explaining it "Yes, you have 8 gears in each of these 3 rings...no...not 24 gears....8 gears..yes...you see lots of them overlap....you'll figure it out" and the ever-classic "Why is my chain rubbing this thing in the front? Because you shouldn't use that ratio in your granny...huh?". The 1x stuff is much easier for sure for your average so-and-so mtber like it or not.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EricTheDood View Post
    I think SRAM left the door open with their crappy brakes.

    I've got bikes with Code RSC, Code R, and Guide R, and have found none of them to be stellar. Despite solid performance from X01 and GX drivetrains on the three bikes, my next rig (an XC race bike in a year or two) will most definitely be full XTR, preferably Di2.
    Brake war! Newest bike has Guide RSCs...they are far and away superior in every way to my old bike's XTs.
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    SRAM brakes are great for the 2 weeks between warranty recalls that they actually work.

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