What's the deal with Kona not using gussets?- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    What's the deal with Kona not using gussets?

    I was at the LBS today and noticed all the Kona bikes including the stinky have no gussets. What with this? Obviously there's no problem with sheered head tubes on the stinky. So, what do they do to make it stronger? Internal gussets? Super thick down tubes?

    They make just about the only bikes I've ever seen (for abusive riding) without them.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by MicroHuck
    I was at the LBS today and noticed all the Kona bikes including the stinky have no gussets. What with this? Obviously there's no problem with sheered head tubes on the stinky. So, what do they do to make it stronger? Internal gussets? Super thick down tubes?

    They make just about the only bikes I've ever seen (for abusive riding) without them.
    Don't know much about Konas, but it is very likely just well done internal butting of the tubes. They say that a well designed frame does not need any gussets. Gussets are a costly weight penalty when compared to an equally strong frame that doesn't have any.
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  3. #3
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    They call it Clump Tubing...all their tubes are shaped in that rectangular shape and thick walled at the junctions. Makes for a large wled surface at the headtube junction. At least thats what their marketing stuff sez.
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  4. #4
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    The tube sets are designed not to need gussets.
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  5. #5
    gnar, brah
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy
    The tube sets are designed not to need gussets.
    Exactly...who ever said a lack of gusseting is a bad thing?
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  6. #6
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    mamby they just dont feel like it.
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  7. #7
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    my scab has a gusset...
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    does it still qualify as a mountainbike?
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  8. #8
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    haha, I was just thinking of posting my scab

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by scabrider
    my scab has a gusset...
    dude, henry, wtf did you do to your seat.
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  10. #10
    aka Jesse Palmer
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy
    The tube sets are designed not to need gussets.
    Wow that really added a lot of useful information to this thread I think that is the stupidest thing I have ever heard a "Moderator" say

  11. #11
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    i got a pink one...
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    Quote Originally Posted by JBsoxB
    does it still qualify as a mountainbike?
    Quote Originally Posted by kidwoo
    I've beat beer cans on my limp pee pee.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by jp3d
    Wow that really added a lot of useful information to this thread I think that is the stupidest thing I have ever heard a "Moderator" say
    it was an exact answer to the question...

  13. #13
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    2006 Stinkbomb

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  14. #14
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    So Kona uses butting in the boom tubes instead? Interesting.

    Well whatever they do, it sure as hell works! I've never seen a Kona bust in that spot.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by MicroHuck
    So Kona uses butting in the boom tubes instead? Interesting.

    Well whatever they do, it sure as hell works! I've never seen a Kona bust in that spot.

    actually, quite a few companies use tubing designed in much the same way. look around at some company sites, and you'll see them.

    look at the front end of a lot of bikes that use Easton's RAD tubesets. big square tubes with thick butted ends, lots of weld area, no gussets needed. makes for a nice stiff front, as well. and less actually weld to have a potential bad weld/failure.

    my weyless-67 is easton RAD tubing like that, and so was a rocky mountain flow frame i had for a while.
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  16. #16
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    Cool-blue Rhythm

    Quote Originally Posted by MicroHuck
    I was at the LBS today and noticed all the Kona bikes including the stinky have no gussets. What with this? Obviously there's no problem with sheered head tubes on the stinky. So, what do they do to make it stronger? Internal gussets? Super thick down tubes?

    They make just about the only bikes I've ever seen (for abusive riding) without them.

    The deal is they dont break. Ive been throwing down pretty hard on my 04 stinky deelux for over a year and its still going strong. I wouldnt want any other bike.
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  17. #17
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    Top and down tubes joined

    Seems like a lot of newer bikes have top and down tubes that are welded together before they hit the head tube. This must make the junction stronger, because most bikes with joined top/down tubes don't have extra gussets.

  18. #18
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    The Scab has not be made since 2002. The current jump frames do not use gussets.
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by jp3d
    Wow that really added a lot of useful information to this thread I think that is the stupidest thing I have ever heard a "Moderator" say
    If that really is "the stupidest thing (you) have ever heard a "Moderator" say" then we are doing VERY well!

    It is the truth. He asked why. I stated why. Want more details? Go ask Kona. Doubt if they will give you the specific dimensions.

    I could have just said "They don't need gussets."
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy
    If that really is "the stupidest thing (you) have ever heard a "Moderator" say" then we are doing VERY well!

    It is the truth. He asked why. I stated why. Want more details? Go ask Kona. Doubt if they will give you the specific dimensions.

    I could have just said "They don't need gussets."

    Hey! How dare you be direct and to the point!!!

  21. #21
    aka Jesse Palmer
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    Quote Originally Posted by MicroHuck
    Hey! How dare you be direct and to the point!!!
    Quote Originally Posted by shabadu
    They call it Clump Tubing...all their tubes are shaped in that rectangular shape and thick walled at the junctions. Makes for a large wled surface at the headtube junction. At least thats what their marketing stuff sez.
    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy
    The tube sets are designed not to need gussets.
    He just repeated what had just been said, but without providing any more insight.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by jp3d
    He just repeated what had just been said, but without providing any more insight.
    And that makes it stupid? If so that means 99.9994% of the replies on this board are stupid (only 99.87% are stupid).
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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by jp3d
    He just repeated what had just been said, but without providing any more insight.
    so you were expecting an engineering lecture? i could say you're pretty dumb for not knowing why that type of tubing geometry doesnt need guessets...

    hint: the tubing geometry was designed to purposely replace gusseting. If you want more depth on why this is and how it distributes stresses, go to university...
    Quote Originally Posted by Gunslingger
    no doubt you must have majored in english or something rad!!!

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy
    And that makes it stupid? If so that means 99.9994% of the replies on this board are stupid (only 99.87% are stupid).
    hehe, now make that - 99.88% I just added another one! lol


    I think Kona has been in the extreme biking scene long enough that they had plenty of time to fine tune the bike frames. They must have realized that they could alter the typical design and still be giga strong (er?).

    Maybe most bike companies put gussets on just to cover their asses without any scientific testing to see what the limits are without it. That's what I would do. Why take chances in having some kid on MTBR sheer his head tube and give you a bad rep? All it takes is a few ounces of extra metal (even if it is overkill) to make sure that doesn't happen. I would like to see one of Kona's down tubes cut open, I bet there's tons of butting in there.

    ISn't it true that welding aluminum makes it 10% weaker at the weld? I would think konas method of using a heavier gauge tube would elliminate excessive welding and thus increase the weight/strength ratio?


    Ahh, what the hell, who cares right? Konas are buff, period.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by MicroHuck
    hehe, now make that - 99.88% I just added another one! lol


    I think Kona has been in the extreme biking scene long enough that they had plenty of time to fine tune the bike frames. They must have realized that they could alter the typical design and still be giga strong (er?).

    Maybe most bike companies put gussets on just to cover their asses without any scientific testing to see what the limits are without it. That's what I would do. Why take chances in having some kid on MTBR sheer his head tube and give you a bad rep? All it takes is a few ounces of extra metal (even if it is overkill) to make sure that doesn't happen. I would like to see one of Kona's down tubes cut open, I bet there's tons of butting in there.

    ISn't it true that welding aluminum makes it 10% weaker at the weld? I would think konas method of using a heavier gauge tube would elliminate excessive welding and thus increase the weight/strength ratio?


    Ahh, what the hell, who cares right? Konas are buff, period.
    You pretty much have it right. A properly designed tubeset/frame combo may actually be stronger and/or lighter than a frame with round tubes and gussets.
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  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by MicroHuck
    I think Kona has been in the extreme biking scene long enough that they had plenty of time to fine tune the bike frames. They must have realized that they could alter the typical design and still be giga strong (er?).
    ISn't it true that welding aluminum makes it 10% weaker at the weld? I would think konas method of using a heavier gauge tube would elliminate excessive welding and thus increase the weight/strength ratio?
    it was Easton who developped that tubing style and they originally provided the tubing on the Deelux models until 2000, after which they got their Taiwan manufacturers to make the tubes which they call Klump (cheaper i guess). Also eliminating a gusset simplifies manufacturing.
    The weld area can be even weaker than that, thats why most failiures occure near a weld. Using heavier gage tubing wont reduce welding (unless your loosing gussets), but it does make it easier to weld and helps reinforce the area (or conversely, lightens the rest of the tube).
    Quote Originally Posted by Gunslingger
    no doubt you must have majored in english or something rad!!!

  27. #27
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    How many times do I have to repeat this before you get it?

    Reply 1 (Maybe they design their frames with internal butting)
    Quote Originally Posted by Andrewpalooza
    Don't know much about Konas, but it is very likely just well done internal butting of the tubes. They say that a well designed frame does not need any gussets. Gussets are a costly weight penalty when compared to an equally strong frame that doesn't have any.
    Reply 2 (Yes, that is what they do, they also make the tubes rectangular)
    Quote Originally Posted by shabadu
    They call it Clump Tubing...all their tubes are shaped in that rectangular shape and thick walled at the junctions. Makes for a large wled surface at the headtube junction. At least thats what their marketing stuff sez.
    Reply 3 (incase you haven't figured out this from the previous two posts)
    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy
    The tube sets are designed not to need gussets.
    so, zedro, i could say you're pretty dumb for not knowing that shiggy was restating the obvious.

    hint: you could just have read the first three posts of this thread so I wouldn't have to explain this to you.

    Quote Originally Posted by zedro
    so you were expecting an engineering lecture? i could say you're pretty dumb for not knowing why that type of tubing geometry doesnt need guessets...

    hint: the tubing geometry was designed to purposely replace gusseting. If you want more depth on why this is and how it distributes stresses, go to university...

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by jp3d


    How many times do I have to repeat this before you get it?

    Reply 1 (Maybe they design their frames with internal butting)


    Reply 2 (Yes, that is what they do, they also make the tubes rectangular)


    Reply 3 (incase you haven't figured out this from the previous two posts)


    so, zedro, i could say you're pretty dumb for not knowing that shiggy was restating the obvious.

    hint: you could just have read the first three posts of this thread so I wouldn't have to explain this to you.

    Jeez buddy, take a chill pill
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  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by WheelieMan
    Jeez buddy, take a chill pill
    Hey, i'm just trying to explain this to zedro and shiggy, they seem to be a little slow, plus z is insulting my understanding of fram engineering for no reason.

  30. #30
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    Well, butted tubes don't really need gussets because the ends of the tubes are way thicker then the rest of the tube.

    Also, gussets are more seen on bikes with straight wall tubing. Thats because the straight wall tubes are weaker for the same weight. Then they add gussets wich pretty much imitates the ticker ends of good butted tubes.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by WheelieMan
    Jeez buddy, take a chill pill
    99.93%...

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by jp3d
    Hey, i'm just trying to explain this to zedro and shiggy, they seem to be a little slow, plus z is insulting my understanding of fram engineering for no reason.
    how bright can someone be that chooses to insult two moderators in the same thread? the first insult being totally uncalled for....
    Quote Originally Posted by Gunslingger
    no doubt you must have majored in english or something rad!!!

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by zedro
    how bright can someone be that chooses to insult two moderators in the same thread? the first insult being totally uncalled for....
    Makes you wonder why people get all bloody puss about some pixels on a screen that look like text.

    I think it's funny how he got hot bushed over something that wasn't even directed at him. This is how many of these long/useless threads keep getting longer!

    It's the internet, GROW UP, GROW SOME HAIR DOWN THERE, GROW A PAIR!!!

    It's funny how those of us over 25 years old are only 1% of the people on here. 99% are younger than 25. 99% act like 12. The other 50% are bad at math...



    ok, shiggy, percentage has gone up...

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    Last edited by MicroHuck; 05-12-2005 at 06:47 PM.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by MicroHuck
    This is how many of these long/useless threads keep getting longer!
    thanks for proving the perfect example.

    Ok zedro and shiggy I guess I should just be nice the moderators no matter what they say and not critisize anyone's posts, no matter how useless they are. Don't question authority, submit to the machines! This post is designed to end this useless bickering

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