Thoughts on frames - V-tach/Highline/Cuervo- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    Thoughts on frames - V-tach/Highline/Cuervo

    Not my thoughts, I'm looking for yours. These three are frames that I've got an interest in for DH/FR duties. Main stomping grounds will be Diablo in NJ, with some local PA riding and some travel around the northeast (and beyond). No racing and no huge hucks. I'm a DH novice and just want to make the correct purchase the first time around. Here's what I see as my needs in a DH/FR frame:

    • Stiff - I'm 260lbs, this sucker has got to be laterally stiff. Off-camber, rocky terrain is no fun on a bike that is even a wee bit flexy.
    • Plush - my skillz are weak and I need the suspension to make up for my shortcomings. Seriously, though, I need as much help in the rough stuff from the bike as I can get.
    • Progressive - even though I ain't doing any 20ft hucks, I am gonna be jumping and dropping on this thing. I'm looking for maximum comfort and cushion on landings (and some forgiveness when I'm "off", which'll be often).
    • Reliable/Durable - I'm not interested in having to replace bearings every 2 months. I don't want to have to deal with cracked seat-tubes or anything like that.
    • Balanced geometry - Slack is good, stable at speed (and in the rough) is good. Skinnies aren't really my thing...feeling comfortable on steeper terrain is more important than slow-speed agility. Cornering is a weakness of mine, so a frame that inherently corners well is a plus.
    • Braking - good braking characteristics are imperative, I don't want brake jack sending my over the bars or skipping me through braking bumps.
    • Balanced travel - I want to know that what the front of the bike can handle, the back can as well. Having a plush fork that gobbles up rocks only to have the the bike held up by the rear is rather unpleasant. They'll likely be an 888 hanging off the front.
    • Company support - If something were to go wrong I want to know that things are going to be taken care of.
    • Pedaling - is not terribly important, this bike is gonna be for lift and shuttle use only. If it pedals well, that's good. No biggie if it doesn't.

    My initial thoughts on these frames (after reading a zillion threads on each, no test rides yet) -

    V-tach:
    The Rolls Royce of freeride frames. Likely super stiff and plush, if the reviews are accurate. Very adjustable geometry, HTA can vary 2 degrees and CS length up to 20mm. Four by four suspension likely means good pedaling and great braking characteristics. Users rave about the durability. Noel provides great support here on the boards, probably even better for actual customers. 196mm of travel puts it in the middle range of these three frames.

    Highline:
    Very-well liked frame, particularly in its currently 7.2" travel iteration. Had a chainstay breakage issue that seems to have been resolved. Lower BB and longish WB probably means stable at speed and good cornering capabilities. Turner CS is excellent, I've experienced it myself. Having a little less travel than the other frames, I wonder how it compares in terms of plushness. In addition, I wonder how balanced the frame will feel with a 8" 888 on the front of it (most people are running Totems or 66s). I've heard no complaints about braking.

    El Cuervo:
    Nine inches of travel probably means uber-plush. Ventanas are renowned for their stiffness, I'm sure the Cuervo is no exception. This is the slackest of the crew, likely means stable on the steeps and at speed/while cornering, but maybe a little sluggish at slower speeds. Single-pivot may have a little brake squat, unless running a floating brake. This frame is intended for DH racing, which I won't be doing. Word is that it's not a FRO frame, but should I have doubts about its durability as an everyday DH/FR beater-bike? Ventana CS is top-notch as well.

    I realize that one cannot go wrong with either of these frames. I'm interested in owners (and others') opinions of these bikes. Feel free to nit-pick about things you do and don't like. Especially consider my "special needs" as a clyde-sized DH novice. Other frames are being considered (these are just my top 3), so if you've got something else in mind then post it up. TIA for any input.

  2. #2
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    great choices. the highline is SP as well, and possibly the knolly? i don't really know knolly bikes very well though so somebody else will chime in i'm sure. Either way, the ventana would be my pick for you.

    Have you considered the session 10 or giant glory? Both of these come stocked with a pretty nice build for a big guy such as youself. The glory DH is a pretty good choice for somebody who's less concerned with weight and more concerned with durability but still wants a fun DH bike. From your choices it seems like you're kinda trying to steer towards smaller brands? another bike to consider would be the cove shocker.

  3. #3
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    My thoughts: I have a friend that rides a Cuervo and a friend that rides a Highline (actually 2 friends now). The Cuervo as awesome as it is, is a dedicated DH frame. It's heavy, it's slack. It would not be my first choice for a freeride platform. Full-on DH, lift-access bike. Awesome bike, incredible welds but just not my first choice for a do-all bike. From what you wrote it sounds like you are not looking for a bike that can climb. Both the V-tach and Highline are known for their climbing abilities.

    Both people that ride Highlines that I have talked to absolutely LOVE them. And they both ride them on trail rides. The bike pedals well, handles well and from my limited experience, plush even with a Fox DHX air.

    I have no personal experience with Knollys but from what I've read, incredible (albiet uber-expensive) rides.

    It sounds like to me that for the kind of riding you are describing the Cuervo might be the best choice. I think all three frames meet the requirements you need except that the Cuervo is very slack, has a long wheelbase and very stable at speed and in the steeps. If your were looking for a bike that can climb, I'd say pick one on the other two, otherwise go with Ventana.

    Cheers,
    Kevin
    Last edited by NorKal; 10-28-2007 at 10:02 PM.

  4. #4
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    I was in the same boat as you were a while back. Out of the three you listed the El Cuervo was top dog on my list. I was about to buy one but found a killer deal on something else.

  5. #5
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    warranty, strentgh....going for the v-tach
    the trick is ENJOYING YOUR LIFE EACH DAY, don't waste them away wishing for better days

  6. #6
    Takw/agranofsalt
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    Quote Originally Posted by William42
    great choices. the highline is SP as well, and possibly the knolly? i don't really know knolly bikes very well though so somebody else will chime in i'm sure.
    Nope, horst-link actually
    Last edited by NorKal; 12-29-2010 at 10:33 AM.

  7. #7
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    How tall are you?

  8. #8
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    I'll chime in on the Cuervo. I had one for 3 seasons. I am 6-2 and 200 lbs.

    I ordered a medium early in 2004. I went a size smaller to keep the bike nimble. In hindsight, I should've went with a large, but at the time, it was going to be my one shuttle bike for all types of terrain. Mine came with the floating brake as well. I did have some bearing problems, but I was riding in REALLY wet Whistler conditions when I had problems. The bearings needed re-packed with a synthetic waterproof grease. All better.

    Long story short: best handling long travel bike I've been on. It rails all types of turns, had a very dependable rear end, and stiff all around. I listened to what you want out of a bike and I think this is a great choice... I sold it to get a shorter travel bike since I haven't been doing the resort thing as much. I still want to get a large.

    I can't comment on the Highline or the V-tach (want one bad ) But they both have tall seat-tubes for climbing. I prefer a short seat tube (17-18 inches my taste) for the steeeeeeeep stuff. It's just better to have the seat completely out of the way.

    Cuervo.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kidwoo
    The internet sounds like a tough place to ride.

  9. #9
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    I don't really see these frames having much in common. The highline is 2+lbs lighter than the V-tach, and you can't run a F. der. on the cuervo.

    I would think hard about the pedaling / climbing aspect. Think about places you might want to ride, but haven't been to yet, which can't be shuttled. Even if you don't need to pedal, the geometry of any dedicated DH bike might be too much for lots of FR terrain. OTOH if you live close to diablo and plan to buy season's passes, maybe a dedicated DH rig is worth it? I haven't ridden there so I have no idea.

  10. #10
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    highline.
    my every day all day bike. climbs well and goes down brilliantly. i'm currently about 220lbs and the bike is just amazing for me. turner have a way of judging the rear spring weight to perfection if you're going for the coil version (i did).
    love the tyre clearance and the grease points on the pivots. attention to detail is great and like you said the chainstay problem is now sorted.

  11. #11
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    Thanks for the replies guys. Some clarification - I'll likely be running a single ring up front, no granny because there really won't be any climbing. I'll also be using most of the components that I have on my RFX, so I'm not looking for a complete build. I'm gonna have a 6"+ trail bike (RFX or similar) in the stable for everyday riding, so if I'm going on a ride with techy terrain that requires climbing and can't be shuttled, the trail bike is going to get the nod.

    I know that there's actually a pretty big difference between these frames. I also realize that if I get a Cuervo then pedaling is going to suffer on anything other than DH terrain. The V-tach is first on my list because it purportedly does pedal really well, but it's still gonna weigh between 45 and 50lbs, so extended uphill pedaling is not gonna be fun, and won't happen too often. This is not going to be my everyday trail bike, it's just for DH-specific rides (which hopefully will occur often enough to justify the bikes purchase ).

    From a pedaling standpoint, the HL certainly is appealing. Here my arguments against the Highline (and I do like the frame, so hopefully these are rational, not emotional, points):

    • I have to think that its shorter travel gives up something in the plushness department to the other two frames. Maybe it isn't that much, but when you get into those "OH, sh1t" moments I would imagine that a little extra travel helps a lot.
    • These would seem to be a big overlap in use between a ~35lb 6"+ trail bike and a ~42lb 7"+ HL. I know FMs got both and they suit his purposes well, but I don't really have "pedal up to the freeride trails" like they do in the NW or at the North Shore. Here it's either techy XC (with no big drops or jumps), or we're going DHing with full-body armor.
    • The HL is balanced well with a ~180mm (~565 a2c) single crown fork. How will the geometry be and how balanced will it feel with a 200mm (585 a2c) DC fork? Maybe it'll be great, but I've got no reference because I haven't heard about anyone running one this way. I'd be reluctant to run the HL with a longer rear shock (to get matching front and rear travel) because not everyone loved that configuration, so much so that it isn't offered anymore.
    • The suspension configuration of the HL results in long(ish) seatstays (because they extend all the way up to the shock). There would seem to be a potential for flex here. Just an observation based on appearance alone, of course not based at all on facts. I'm not gonna get into a flame war about this either, so if you're gonna dispute this point do it in a civil manner. Thank you. And remember that at almost 19 stone I can probably find the flex in almost any frame. Yeah, yeah, I hear it now..."lose some weight ya' fatty!"


    Maybe I'm wrong about the Highline, if so...convince me. Believe me, I like Turners and would like to own more if it's the best choice for me. Right now the V-tach seems to be the best option for what my needs are. The Cuervo would be a great choice too, I guess it's possible that it may give up too much in the pedaling department to keep it from being as versatile as the other two.

  12. #12
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    so really


  13. #13
    FM
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    Quote Originally Posted by PCinSC
    Thanks for the replies guys.

    I'll also be using most of the components that I have on my RFX, so I'm not looking for a complete build.
    None of these bikes will take your current rear wheel, and only the knolly will take your cranks. Plus you'll want a DC fork for the knolly/cuervo.

    Quote Originally Posted by PCinSC
    [LIST][*]These would seem to be a big overlap in use between a ~35lb 6"+ trail bike and a ~42lb 7"+ HL. I know FMs got both and they suit his purposes well, but I don't really have "pedal up to the freeride trails" like they do in the NW or at the North Shore. Here it's either techy XC (with no big drops or jumps), or we're going DHing with full-body armor.
    It has nothing to do with travel or plushness for me...it's all about geometry. I have tried all three possible set-ups on the highline (8+8", 7+7" and 6+6") and totally prefer the 7" set up by far. Mainly due to the BB height- perfect at 14".

    The leverage ration stays the same between set-up so plushness isn't affected much, only on the bigger hits will you notice/use the last inch of the 8" set-up.

    Quote Originally Posted by PCinSC
    [*]The suspension configuration of the HL results in long(ish) seatstays (because they extend all the way up to the shock).
    Actually the highline has the shorter chainstays in this group. Most all DH bikes will have longer stays for more stability on high-speeds or on rough terrain. The flipside is, the longer bikes will be harder to wheelie/manual.

    Look at BB heights closely too.

    I think really you are trying to figure out of you want a DH bike or a FR bike. I would figure that out before you look at any specific brands. Try to ride some loaners and you will notice the geometry differences right away (long an low.... or too long and low?)

  14. #14
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    I agree with you on the overlap with the Highline and burly trail bike. You already have a serious trailbike, so I would go with a full on dh/freeride bike. V-tach.

  15. #15
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    PC,

    Don't forget about the big climb going up. I know I didn't and in fact, I have some weird addiction to it. I dunno, more weight than what you're running now might hurt a lot.

    Is it a possibility to run two different wheelsets/shocks/forks for those lighter days?

  16. #16
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    How about a Cannondale Perp?
    • Adjustable travel 180/200mm
    • Takes a FD
    • Steep seat angle for climbing
    • 1.5 headtube
    • Sizes S to XL
    • Nice FR geo with a SC, good DH geo with a DC
    • Optional floating brake
    • $2000 for the frame far cheaper than a HL, Cuervo, or V-Tach



  17. #17
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    ya i was going to say, why not the dhr? you like turner, but dont like how the highlines travel is shorter. DHR, also they use bushings so no bearings need to be replaced, correct me if im wrong but that how i understood it.

  18. #18
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    PCinNC if you ever want to take my V-tach for a spin we can meet up. I am in CT. Its a large

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    PC,

    Don't forget about the big climb going up.
    No need to worry. That is why we will be using my truck. Lord knows the R9 is no Flux on the way up.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by FM
    Plus you'll want a DC fork for the knolly/cuervo.
    FM: I would slightly disagree with this comment

    While I can't speak for the Ventana, we have many, many customers running V-tachs with single crown forks, primarily 66RC2Xs and Totems (you will want a minimum of 170mm of travel up front with the V-tach and preferably 180mm). These long travel single crown forks are perfectly suited to the V-tach, as are 200mm DC forks. The V-tach's adjustable geometry allows the rider to tune the frame and fork to their riding preferences. To be fair, the flip side to having adjustable geometry is more weight and higher cost (because there are more parts).

    Climbing - yes, the V-tach is a big bike - no doubt about it. However, we have also had customers racing in the Squamish Test of Metal on their (stock) V-tachs the last 4 years and finishing every year. This is a 67km XC race with 4000' of vertical. So, it can definitely pedal and climb.

    Cheers,
    Noel Buckley
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  21. #21
    FM
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    Quote Originally Posted by knollybikes.com
    FM: I would slightly disagree with this comment

    Cheers,
    Fair enough

    Speaking of which, I did a bit of research before posting my reply
    (I have been known to do close to 40 hours a week of MTBR related research)
    And I noticed the v-tach geometry page does not list BB height. I'm guessing this is due to fork selection and geometry adjustability. Obviously BB height is a concern when choosing between SC and DC forks.... anyways care to comment on this?

  22. #22
    Just roll it......
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    Quote Originally Posted by knollybikes.com
    Climbing - yes, the V-tach is a big bike - no doubt about it. However, we have also had customers racing in the Squamish Test of Metal on their (stock) V-tachs the last 4 years and finishing every year. This is a 67km XC race with 4000' of vertical. So, it can definitely pedal and climb.
    Yeah, Muttonchops outclimbed me on his V-tach yesterday going up a 2600 ft. fireroad climb. In all fairness, he could outclimb me on any bike, but I was on a 34 lb. Reign with a talas 36 and he had his big bike with a 888 on it.

    On the descent, he was stoked for sure when he came up WAY short on a hip/gap (basically 50/50'ing the bike) and ran out of that one. Plus, I took him blind over a little gap/stepdown thingy that he cased pretty hard.

    Testing out some new work that has gone in over the last couple of weeks. First of 3 steep consecutive rollers.


    The last roller / chute that isn't quite done yet.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by FM
    Fair enough

    Speaking of which, I did a bit of research before posting my reply
    (I have been known to do close to 40 hours a week of MTBR related research)
    And I noticed the v-tach geometry page does not list BB height. I'm guessing this is due to fork selection and geometry adjustability. Obviously BB height is a concern when choosing between SC and DC forks.... anyways care to comment on this?
    Surprisingly it's NOT that big a difference any more because the outliers have come closer together. I.e. the super tall 888 forks from 2004 and 2005 got new crowns in 2006 that drastically dropped their heights. Same with the 66 series of forks (except that they got new lowers). So, now there is not a huge difference in height between - say - a 180mm 66 RC2X (which has a thicker crown because there is only ONE crown) and a 203mm 888RC2X which has a very thin crown.

    Just to do MY research (!) I just measured up two 2008 Marzocchi forks: a 66RC3 and a 888WC RC3. The 888 is barely 1/2 - 5/8" longer than the 66 mainly due to the thicker crown on the 66.

    Thanks for the heads up on the missing information on the V-tach on our website! It's actually on the Metric tab, just for some reason not on the Standard tab. Weird! We have to go through all that stuff anyway to get all the new 2008 pricing up, Endorhpin production geometry, and new 2008 build kits, so it's good to know about the missing V-tach specifications as well - thanks!

    Cheers,
    Noel Buckley
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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by gil_caz
    ya i was going to say, why not the dhr? you like turner, but dont like how the highlines travel is shorter. DHR, also they use bushings so no bearings need to be replaced, correct me if im wrong but that how i understood it.
    All the XC/Trail (ish) bikes from Turner use bushings. The Highline and the DHR both use bearings.

  25. #25
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    Can't beat Turner Quality and Reliability! I just got a DHR and I am blown away with the craftsmanship, far superior to the Sunday, V10 etc.

    I've seen a lot of Highline threads, and they only have positive things to say about them. You should certainly look into it and try and get a test ride.

    In all honesty though, those are 3 solid bike choices, although they are pretty different, all companies are going to give you top notch craftsmanship and build quality versus your run o da mill brands.
    Northstar 2008 Riding Crew

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by ebxtreme
    Testing out some new work that has gone in over the last couple of weeks. First of 3 steep consecutive rollers.
    Fvckwad!

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by FM
    Fvckwad!
    Playa hata.

  28. #28
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    PC...curious why you aren't considering Ventana El Bruja which is more comparable to a V-Tach or Highline than Cuervo which is a full blown lift-acessed bike.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raptordude
    Can't beat Turner Quality and Reliability! I just got a DHR and I am blown away with the craftsmanship, far superior to the Sunday, V10 etc.
    BS! Sapa welds for Santa Cruz & Turner!

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Squeaky Wheel
    PC...curious why you aren't considering Ventana El Bruja which is more comparable to a V-Tach or Highline than Cuervo which is a full blown lift-acessed bike.
    take your meds and shut your piehole, b!tch

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by ebxtreme
    Playa hata.
    ........................

    Quote Originally Posted by the Don
    I HAVE AN ISSUE WITH YOU AND YOUR CREW.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtb_biker
    How tall are you?
    Five foot, eleven inches. Thirty-three inch inseam.

  33. #33
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    Wow, a guy goes to work for the day and misses all the good stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Squeaky Wheel
    PC...curious why you aren't considering Ventana El Bruja which is more comparable to a V-Tach or Highline than Cuervo which is a full blown lift-acessed bike.
    This bike will be used primarily for lift-accessed riding.

    The Bruja is cool, and it's on my list, just not in the top three. My main thought about the Bruja is why settle for only 170mm rear travel, when there are frames with more travel that'll likely do the job better? By "the job" I mean I want the suspension to flatten nasty, rocky terrain, provide sofa-like cushion on my numerous 3' drops and forgive me when I case doubles & step-ups/downs. I don't think I'm off in thinking that when all else is equal, the bike with more suspension will provide a smoother ride through the rough stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by gil_caz
    ya i was going to say, why not the dhr?
    No particular reason. Out of the two, I like the looks of the Cuervo better. Both get good reviews, I think I like what people have to say about the Cuervo a little better though. That make any sense? Probably not. Let me stick with the "I like the way it looks better" defense. Would I like a test ride on both to see for sure? Absolutely.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nagaredama
    How about a Cannondale Perp?
    I've heard the Cannondales are a little flexy...from a dealer, no less. I'd probably look towards a Blindside as a more budget choice (in fact it's on my list already).

  34. #34
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    Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Highline a 7" travel bike as well?

    And if the bike is for lift-accessed terrain, why a Highline instead of a DHR?

    your list of potentials seems scattered to me.

    Travel is definitely part of the equation. But don't discount other factors such as suspension dynamics. For example, Knolly Delerium feels like it has more than 6" of travel because the linkage is so darned good.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by FM
    None of these bikes will take your current rear wheel, and only the knolly will take your cranks. Plus you'll want a DC fork for the knolly/cuervo.
    Yeah, I'll need a new rear wheel (or wheelset), crankset, headset, seatpost, etc. I'm definitely putting a DC fork on whatever bike I get, a SC is a compromise for me. My 66 will be my trail bike fork (unless I lose my mind and decide to go 29er ).

    It has nothing to do with travel or plushness for me...it's all about geometry. I have tried all three possible set-ups on the highline (8+8", 7+7" and 6+6") and totally prefer the 7" set up by far. Mainly due to the BB height- perfect at 14".

    The leverage ration stays the same between set-up so plushness isn't affected much, only on the bigger hits will you notice/use the last inch of the 8" set-up.
    I here ya'. All other things equal though, it would seem to me that a bike with more travel will be more forgiving and provide more cush in rough terrain. Obviously all other things are not always equal, but in this case we're talking about the cream of the DH/FR crop. All these suspension designs work really well, I'm sure. The geometry of all three is tweaked to perfection for the intended use. Which is the best geo for me...I guess that's as yet unanswered. I'll tell you this, though: my achy joints want as much shock absorption as possible, so the more travel, the better.

    Actually the highline has the shorter chainstays in this group. Most all DH bikes will have longer stays for more stability on high-speeds or on rough terrain. The flipside is, the longer bikes will be harder to wheelie/manual.
    Going by the numbers on each manufacturers website the CSs are actually pretty close. the HL is 17.2", Cuervo is 17.4" and the V-tach is adjustable from 17" to 17.8". I was actually referring to the seatstay part of the HL swingarm and the fact that there is no additional "support" until the rocker meets up with the seatstays near the seat tube. I'm not saying there is flex, I'm just visually comparing the three designs and very unscientifically guessing where there potentially could be flex. This is a small point that I'm not terribly concerned about anyway.

    Look at BB heights closely too.
    HL would probably be the lowest (depending on fork height and tires), Cuervo next and V-tach the tallest. The V-tach's BB height is likely the most variable because in addition the influences of fork height and tire size it changes depending on what HTA it's set at.

    My RFX is currently running at 14.5", which is pretty damn high for a 5" travel bike. If I had an 8" travel bike set at the same BB height I'd bet it would feel a lot lower, particularly when sagged.

    I think really you are trying to figure out of you want a DH bike or a FR bike. I would figure that out before you look at any specific brands. Try to ride some loaners and you will notice the geometry differences right away (long an low.... or too long and low?)
    Good point, I haven't quite sorted what I really want/need. The points I listed in my OP are the characteristics that are most important to me for the majority of my use. This is my first big bike purchase and I want to do it right the first time, which is tough without having the experience gained through trial and error purchases. The majority of use (80-90%) this bike will see will be lift-assisted resort riding. The other 10-20% will be truck-shuttled DH riding. Will there be any instances that I'll want to ride some DH/FR trails that have to be climbed up to? Maybe, but this will likely be less than one out of 20 times. And in those cases my RFX may be the better tool for the job anyway.

    Unfortunately loaners are of this type are not easily found around these parts. And besides that, even if I can get to throw a leg over a bike it's not going to feel "right" without having it set-up for my weight. I'll need the stiffest coils available for the shock and fork, and most likely will get the dampers custom-tuned if available. A stock set-up may give me an indication of the what the geometry feels like, but that could get totally thrown off by inadequate (for me) suspension. I've gotten a few offers for test rides, I'll see what unfolds.

  36. #36
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    I think you just described a dedicated DH bike in your last post. The only thing that sounded even remotely freeride from a previous post was you area little worried about pedaling on the flats. It may not be much of an issue to suffer a little of that, for a bike that will do just what you want 95% of the time!

    I would start working on a short list of quality DH bikes and go from there.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Squeaky Wheel
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Highline a 7" travel bike as well?
    It is. The HL is 180mm travel, I haven't determined if the Bruja is 7" travel meaning 170mm, or 7" travel meaning 180mm. They're close either way. See my other responses for my need for max shock absorption.

    And if the bike is for lift-accessed terrain, why a Highline instead of a DHR?
    Because all HL owners say they love it for lift-assisted riding. Maybe I need to pull the Highline off my list and add on some more DH frames.

    your list of potentials seems scattered to me.
    It is. I'm schitzo, what can I say.

    Travel is definitely part of the equation. But don't discount other factors such as suspension dynamics. For example, Knolly Delerium feels like it has more than 6" of travel because the linkage is so darned good.
    Agreed. My assumption is that all of these bikes feel like they have a lot of travel. Maybe that's an incorrect assumption, but given the quality of all these brands I have to think it's a fair assessment. And the V-tach is at the top of the list because of the raves about its performance. Perhaps I would only take a V-tach to 85 or 90% of its capabilities (if I'm lucky ), but it still means I'm pushing beyond the capabilities of a lesser travel bike (even Delirium T). And if that provides a margin of error and comfort for a "weaker" rider like me then all the better.

  38. #38
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    I say get the knolly because you owe Noel for the 40 hours he's spent answering your questions.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by airwreck
    I say get the knolly because you owe Noel for the 40 hours he's spent answering your questions.
    Great Answer !

    Although one could say that Dave T has historically dedicated an equal amount of time to Patrick. Both DT & Noel have the patience of saints.

    Patrick, 7"=178mm
    Do you really think you can tell a 2mm travel difference?

    You really need to first decide what type of bike you want. FR v DH
    Among these 3 brands:
    DH: Cuervo, DHR
    FR: Highline, Delerium, V-Tach, Bruja

    V-Tach probably blurs the DH/FR line more than the others, but there's nothing like a dedicated DH bike for descending.

  40. #40
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    For a second i thought i was browsing the Turner forum...

    Only on mtbr would a list such as this exist.

    Any of those bikes (and plenty cheaper others) you're probably going to like and be able to ride down the hill just as well.

  41. #41
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    well, how about this option
    Attached Images Attached Images

  42. #42
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    Note to Fo': I'll PM you the Cliff Notes version of this post.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Squeaky Wheel
    Great Answer! Although one could say that Dave T has historically dedicated an equal amount of time to Patrick.
    Not sure how much time DT's spent answering questions of mine. Most of my questions have been answered by helpful end-users.

    Edit: retracted diatribe.

    Patrick, 7"=178mm
    Do you really think you can tell a 2mm travel difference?
    Before the 180mm forks came out in '07, everyone referred to 170mm travel forks as 7" when they are really ~6.7". Now that there are 180mm (just over 7") forks on the market, those are the new 7". So when a manufacturer states that their product is 7", I assume it's either 170mm or 180mm, and not actually 7". I have no idea what the Bruja's travel actually is. And no, 2mm will not make any difference. But 10mm probably will, and 20mm definitely will.

    You really need to first decide what type of bike you want. FR v DH
    I want a DH/FR bike.

    Among these 3 brands:
    DH: Cuervo, DHR
    FR: Highline, Delerium, V-Tach, Bruja

    V-Tach probably blurs the DH/FR line more than the others, but there's nothing like a dedicated DH bike for descending
    Forget the Highline. Cross out the Bruja and Delirium also, too little travel.

    You know what, scratch this thread, I'm gonna start over (and post in a place that the Homers can't find me ).
    Last edited by PCinSC; 10-30-2007 at 03:36 PM.

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by boone
    well, how about this option
    Very nice. Seems pricier than even the Knolly, though.

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by PCinSC
    Note to Fo': I'll PM you the Cliff Notes version of this post.
    lol

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by PCinSC
    Five foot, eleven inches. Thirty-three inch inseam.
    If you live close to CT you can take my large V-tack for a spin.

  46. #46
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    At your size and deemed use of bike, I'd say get the Cuervo, and enjoy the beast going downhill. Sounds like you're doing no uphill, so why not get the beefy bike to hold up to your planned abuse. Your size, and your desire to flatten the terrain, sounds like you need the beefiest of the group.
    Just my two cents as a Cuervo owner.
    www.velocitybicycles.comWhere customers become friends, not simply a dollar sign.

  47. #47
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    geez dude, lighten up.

  48. #48
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    V-tach.!
    Trek T1 . MOJO SL 2011 Fox 32 Talas 1X10 FTW

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Internal14
    At your size and deemed use of bike, I'd say get the Cuervo, and enjoy the beast going downhill. Sounds like you're doing no uphill, so why not get the beefy bike to hold up to your planned abuse. Your size, and your desire to flatten the terrain, sounds like you need the beefiest of the group.
    Just my two cents as a Cuervo owner.
    I agree 100%. FWIW I'm 6'1" and usually between 230-240 pounds (though currently 255, have been 210 within this past year). I'm the former owner of an '02 DHR (what I'd call the Cuervo Jr.) and current owner of an updated '01 RFX. What you want is the Cuervo. The geometry between my two (seat angle excluded) is actually VERY similar. They both rip downhill (My RFX mutant has a 66 deg head angle - slackest I've seen in a 6" bike) so 1 part of the equation is cancelled out. Second is weight. My RFX is 37, my DHR was between 47 and 49 with a beefcake build. DHR was much harder to get around (I rode urban and DJ's more than DH) but when aimed and rolling was very set-and-forget. Thirdly is suspension progression. You want that uber-progressive rate of the Cuervo, trust me. At your weight, with your skills and expectations it will be very useful. My DHR had only 0.5" more travel up front and 1.5" more out back, but the progressiveness of the Monster T and DHR combo made me feel much more confident and skilled. I was willing to push my limits and progress my riding because I always knew the suspension would save the day. On my RFX I know if I mess up it's gonna hurt. IMO you're story has 888/Cuervo written alllllll over it!
    Quote Originally Posted by Hesh to Steel
    With people liking mongoose and trek bikes now, what's next in this crazy world? People disliking the bottlerocket?!

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bulldog
    IMO you're story has 888/Cuervo written alllllll over it!
    I agree TOTALLY.

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Cliffy
    I'll chime in on the Cuervo. Long story short: best handling long travel bike I've been on.
    Quote Originally Posted by Internal14
    I'd say get the Cuervo, and enjoy the beast going downhill.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bulldog
    IMO you're story has 888/Cuervo written alllllll over it!
    Quote Originally Posted by be350ka
    I agree TOTALLY.
    So we've established that I want/need a DH bike, and not really a FR bike. And:
    Cuervo = DH bike
    V-tach = FR bike

    So other than us applying these labels to these frames, what are the differences? On paper the Cuervo seems to be slacker, longer and lower. However, with the adjustability of the V-tach it could probably be set-up pretty damn close to the Cuervos specs, just not as slack. In real world terms, what does this mean? Does the V-tach give anything up to the Cuervo in certain riding situations because of these differences? Or vice-versa? Will I be glad I to have a bike that'll pedal uphill (the V-tach) the couple a times per season when I may want to climb up to a gnarly descent? Which is laterally stiffer? Which is gonna handle the rubble the best?

    I don't think I can make a bad choice here. And some of these questions are not really answerable, except maybe by someone who's had riding experience on both bikes...is there such a person out there? Each bike has lots of fans, and certainly owners of each model are passionate about their steed.

    Thanks for all the input guys, I've got some thinking and researching (and riding) to do. Any additional thoughts are welcome. Thanks again.

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtb_biker
    Any of those bikes (and plenty cheaper others) you're probably going to like and be able to ride down the hill just as well.
    I'd be interested to hear what you feel my options are in a slightly lower price range. After all, I'm not made out of money...I just want to make the right choice the first time. You know the old "buy once, cry once." I also may not be aware of all the models of DH bikes and there may be some that I'm overlooking that could meet my needs.

  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by airwreck
    geez dude, lighten up.
    Consider me lightened. I even started a diet today. I had a Kashi Frozen Pizza for dinner. Does it still count as diet food if you eat the whole pizza?

  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by PCinSC
    Consider me lightened. I even started a diet today. I had a Kashi Frozen Pizza for dinner. Does it still count as diet food if you eat the whole pizza?
    I knew you would take it that way...

  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoManerz
    BS! Sapa welds for Santa Cruz & Turner!
    Maybe the V10 is just flawed by design then.
    Northstar 2008 Riding Crew

  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raptordude
    Maybe the V10 is just flawed by design then.
    I met a V-10 rider (a fellow clyde) over the summer and when I asked him how he liked it he was kind of lukewarm. Said something about needing to custom-tune the suspension, which can easily be done nowadays by PUSH or Avy. The reviews are pretty positive. Is there something specific that's "bad" about this frame that you're aware of?

  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by PCinSC
    I'd be interested to hear what you feel my options are in a slightly lower price range. After all, I'm not made out of money...I just want to make the right choice the first time. You know the old "buy once, cry once." I also may not be aware of all the models of DH bikes and there may be some that I'm overlooking that could meet my needs.

    Well... i'm not sure how you came up with that list is all. Have you put your leg over these three and others? They seem so differnt that you're missing a lot of bikes inbetween. Maybe try and get some saddle time in a few different DH bikes as I think that's what you want (and not so much a FR bike) .

    The Giant glory is a great deal you might like, Demo 7, new V10 possibly (has lower ratio), Morewood Izimu, or the Sinister R9 come to mind. There's also something to be said for simplicity when it comes to DH bike maintance. I can't comment on your riding style/skills or what would fit you best but my suggestion is to try and find out the qualities you want in a bike and then come up with the list.

    Try and get some time on some DH bikes and form an opinion of what you liked/didn't like. That way you can form up better what kind of geometry you want and other characteristics.

  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by PCinSC
    On paper the Cuervo seems to be slacker, longer and lower.
    How would any of those NOT optimize the one dimension of riding you want this bike for?

    Quote Originally Posted by PCinSC
    Will I be glad I to have a bike that'll pedal uphill (the V-tach) the couple a times per season when I may want to climb up to a gnarly descent?
    Will you hate having compromised yourself the other 99% of the time?


    Quote Originally Posted by PCinSC
    I don't think I can make a bad choice here.
    Agreed.

    Also, don't underestimate the beauty in the Cuervo's progressiveness. And don't forget you said you're gonna hang on to a rather solid "trail" bike for those climbing days. A 6" climbing bike will still allow quite a bit of "play" on the way back down! If you were asking for a "one bike" the V-tach would make a very capable DH ride that can take you up as well. But you're not, right? You don't have to compromise.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hesh to Steel
    With people liking mongoose and trek bikes now, what's next in this crazy world? People disliking the bottlerocket?!

  59. #59
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    email Noel from Knolly and ask him about the V-tach as a DH frame .. he'll tell you straight up .. that he designed it for FR and why... i asked him about it at interbike in 06.

    if you're doing more DH = el cuervo, FR = V-tach... said and done.

  60. #60
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    knolly, so few have them and they are the sweetest bikes ever

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    My el cuervo arrived last Sunday. I'm going to build it in a couple of weeks. If you're not in a hurry and won't pull the trigger right now I can give a comparison with Highline. I've ridden my Highline at 8x8 and 7x8 and next week dhx 8.5x2.5 arrives so turns into 7x7.
    El cuervo front will be 888 wc.

  62. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by IntenTurner
    My el cuervo arrived last Sunday. I'm going to build it in a couple of weeks. If you're not in a hurry and won't pull the trigger right now I can give a comparison with Highline. I've ridden my Highline at 8x8 and 7x8 and next week dhx 8.5x2.5 arrives so turns into 7x7.
    El cuervo front will be 888 wc.
    I'm very interested to hear your thoughts, particularly a comparison between the two. The HL at 7x7 seems like kind of a mini-DH bike (long and low, just not quite as slack) that is a good pedaler. Even though it's technically considered a "freeride" frame (don't want to upset the purists).

    If you care to, lay out your reasons for wanting both of those bikes in the stable. It would be helpful to me to help clarify in my mind intended uses and FR/DH differentiations. Thanks.
    Last edited by PCinSC; 11-01-2007 at 06:49 PM.

  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryan_daugherty
    email Noel from Knolly and ask him about the V-tach as a DH frame .. he'll tell you straight up .. that he designed it for FR and why... i asked him about it at interbike in 06.

    if you're doing more DH = el cuervo, FR = V-tach... said and done.
    Yup, totally fair statement. The V-tach is a FR frame first. Of course, it's DH-able, just as any DH bike is FR-able, but we do plan to have a dedicated DH race bike out - just not for a while...

    The real question is what kind of terrain are you going to ride. Just because you're going down hill doesn't necessarily mean that you need a pure DH bike.

    DH bikes are typically low and slack. they are good at going fast and handling high speed corners well. However, their low BB heights mean that they're a handful in slow techy type riding and the long back ends make tight corners more difficult than need be. Plus, the slack front end - while good at high speed and on straight steep rollers and such - is a pain in the ass on technical and lose off camber trail sections - even if very steep - because the front will want to plow and is difficult to keep hooked up.

    FR bikes are generally more versatile. Their relatively higher BBs mean that they'll pedal through technical terrain better and their steeper angles and shorter back ends make them better on stunts and such and on short uphill climbs. On the flip side - even a bike with adjustable geometry like the V-tach - will never "race downhill" as well as a properly designed dedicated DH frame.

    So, even if 99% of your riding is going to be lift or F-150 accessed, you should purchase the right bike for the trails that you're mostly going to ride. In an area like the North Shore, even though all the trails go down, a FR bike is a much better tool than a DH bike for about 90% of the trails.

    On Whistler, a DH bike starts to make more sense, especially if you just want to rip the fast trails and skip the tight techy ones. However, a FR bike is still probably more versatile here, meaning that you'll have more "overall ability to enjoy yourself" on a mix of trails on a FR bike.

    Obviously for pure DH racing, there is no comparison: a good FR frame can make a decent privateer race bike, but this area is ruled by dedicated DH race frames.

    I hope that's a fair statement. As much as every manufacturer wants you to purchase their product, they probably don't want you purchasing their product if it's the wrong choice for your intended application.

    Cheers!
    Noel Buckley
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    Instead of PMs, please contact me here.

  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by knollybikes.com
    Yup, totally fair statement. The V-tach is a FR frame first. Of course, it's DH-able, just as any DH bike is FR-able, but we do plan to have a dedicated DH race bike out - just not for a while...

    The real question is what kind of terrain are you going to ride. Just because you're going down hill doesn't necessarily mean that you need a pure DH bike.
    Terrain
    Diablo is all over the place. A typical descent could consist of the following:
    • a dozen or so tables and doubles on high-speed groomed jump trails
    • high-speed berms with lotsa braking bumps
    • a wall-ride or two
    • slow(er)-speed techy, rocky stuff
    • steep rock faces (and not so steep ones )
    • a few man-made ladder bridges
    • drops from 3 to 8+ feet (mostly man-made)
      <embed width="430" height="389" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" src="https://vid177.photobucket.com/flash/player.swf?file=https://vid177.photobucket.com/albums/w219/be350ka/SCTrain.flv"></embed>
    • high-speed rock gardens
    • alternating sketchy loose rock and sticky granite
    • sketchy, loose fire-roads
    • tight, twisty singletrack - with and without bermed turns
    • lotsa water bars
    Of course, some descents down the mountain offer more less groomed trails with more natural drops and some off-camber grades and turns. Some trails have elevated bridges and skinnys (not really my thing) and some are really sketchy and loose. Most trails have lots of one to two foot high waterbars used as erosion prevention so you're almost always pumping and absorbing them as mini-jumps. Most of the high speed trails and berms are pretty choppy from braking bumps (I get rocked pretty hard on my RFX). Other local lift-assist resorts have similar terrain, perhaps with less grooming.

    Any closer-to-home shuttling would consist of rocky descents down from the ridgeline of the local peaks. Not really a ton of elevation, this ain't the Rockies, ya' know. Locally we don't really have any high-speed turns and few natural or man-made jumps or features. Our local terrain is nothing like the North Shore. Now that I've written it out, our local terrain sounds pretty lame. Most of my time on this bike will be spent at the resorts.

    I won't be doing any racing. Nor do I ride very fast, especially compared to skilled riders. It's possible that the high-speed capabilities of a long, slack DH sled will be lost on a rider like me. A DH suspension, if it's designed first and foremost to for maximum bump absorption to allow momentum to be retained, sounds appealing. But if max speeds aren't my goal, will a FR type suspension design accomplish the similar goal of smoother out the trail and absorbing the big(ger) hits?

    The reported benefits of a low BB height, long-travel bike sound great, I haven't ridden one to get an idea of what that feels like. The BB height on my 5" travel bike is 14.5", so I would imagine that potentially a 8" travel FR bike with even a 15" BB could "feel" lower when sagged. But will a DH-race height BB feel even better?

    Some have said it already, of course I should swing my leg over a few different bikes to get a feel for different frames. That's just not an easy thing to do around these parts. The resorts all have demos: Diablo's got Sundays, Plattekill's got DHRs and Snowshoe and Seven Springs have Konas. And there are a few offers from owners and dealers to demo their DH or FR bikes. the problem that I have is none of these bikes will be sprung properly for me. I could purchase a properly rated coil for demo purposes, but at $30 a pop for springs (plus the potential cost of the rental) that could get expensive pretty quick. Plus the resorts are closing up for the season and won't re-open until May, I'm hoping/trying to make this happen during the off-season (which my wife isn't aware of yet ) so that I'm ready to ride come spring. Although my RFX took 9 months to build up so no guarantees on the build time.

    Thanks for your input Noel (and everyone else), alway very helpful. I think you've clarified for me a little the differences between DH and FR. I know my noobness shows through when talking about these genres of riding and I appreciate the help with figuring this stuff out. Thanks again.

  65. #65
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    I've ridden Diablo and I've ridden a V-Tach. There is likely no superior combination.

    I personally, would not want to have a DH racer as my one "big" bike unless all I did was DH race. The V-Tach will bail you out so much, you'll be doing things you would have never considered before owning it.

    Your search is over
    Embrace your future
    V-Tach!!!!

  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Err
    I've ridden Diablo and I've ridden a V-Tach. There is likely no superior combination.

    I personally, would not want to have a DH racer as my one "big" bike unless all I did was DH race. The V-Tach will bail you out so much, you'll be doing things you would have never considered before owning it.

    Your search is over
    Embrace your future
    V-Tach!!!!
    PC might be embracing a divorce if he gets a V-Tach

  67. #67
    3 "fiddy" for short
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    Quote Originally Posted by PCinSC
    I won't be doing any racing. Nor do I ride very fast, especially compared to skilled riders. It's possible that the high-speed capabilities of a long, slack DH sled will be lost on a rider like me. A DH suspension, if it's designed first and foremost to for maximum bump absorption to allow momentum to be retained, sounds appealing. But if max speeds aren't my goal, will a FR type suspension design accomplish the similar goal of smoother out the trail and absorbing the big(ger) hits?
    I think one thing that you need to consider is the level of progression you had this year on a 5" bike. On that current setup speed may not be your focus, and rightfully so. But, if you get a long travel bike under you, you may feel differently as you continue to improve and try things that your current setup prevented you from doing.

    I remember my RFX requiring much more "planning" when navigating the rock gardens and the bumpy high speed sections. Im not taking anything away from the RFX as I still LOVE riding it as my trail bike, but I dont think it is best suited as an impromptu DH machine.


    The reported benefits of a low BB height, long-travel bike sound great, I haven't ridden one to get an idea of what that feels like. The BB height on my 5" travel bike is 14.5", so I would imagine that potentially a 8" travel FR bike with even a 15" BB could "feel" lower when sagged. But will a DH-race height BB feel even better?
    I can say that when I rode the Sunday with its low BB I felt VERY secure at speed. I did have some pedal strikes, but nothing that was too distracting or limiting. I personally like the feel of a lower BB and the "stability" that it impressed on me. Now, the R9 has a higher BB, but when sagged I still feel that same stability. I also like the longer wheelbase of the R9. I really holds its line which I kinda link to the wheelbase and the amount of travel.

    I know I'm still new at this game too, but these were the very first and MOST noticable differences I found between these different bikes. As I get a full season on the R9 next year I'm sure that I will come up with even more.



    Thanks for your input Noel (and everyone else), alway very helpful. I think you've clarified for me a little the differences between DH and FR.
    Yea, thanks. Im very impressed with your level of participation on these boards and your willingness to help.

  68. #68
    Just roll it......
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    Quote Originally Posted by ronny
    PC might be embracing a divorce if he gets a V-Tach
    LOL.......

  69. #69
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    I have ridden Diablo many times but only on my BMW racelink and not yet on the V-tach. I think the V-tach would be fine there because there is not alot of high speed stuff like Killington. Plue you can adjust the chainstay to were it best suits your riding there.I will ride it there next season to see how it goes. If I was riding Jiminy peak I would ride the BMW because it is very steep and the slacker angles would help alot.

  70. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by PCinSC
    I'm very interested to hear your thoughts, particularly a comparison between the two. The HL at 7x7 seems like kind of a mini-DH bike (long and low, just not quite as slack) that is a good pedaler. Even though it's technically considered a "freeride" frame (don't want to upset the purists).

    If you care to, lay out your reasons for wanting both of those bikes in the stable. It would be helpful to me to help clarify in my mind intended uses and FR/DH differentiations. Thanks.
    Ok, I'll share my thoughts for sure. I just have to finish el cuervo and then compare to HL. From HL I can tell that at 8x8 it's not good for DH: too tall so bad cornering. It's good for huge drops. 7x7 I have little time on a roco air and it did perform like you said, a mini-DH: corners much much better but still keeps dropability at high level. It reminded my 5spot and 6pack on steroids. The HL is very versatile, it's a good pedaler, you can slam saddle up for pedalling and click the granny for steep climbs.
    Though I have not ridden el cuervo yet I assume it's more of a pure DH (racing or not) machine: slacker, bit lower, in the same category as DHR. It should go faster for a gnarly descent full of rock gardens, hoots and the steeper the better.
    Why did I add el cuervo? First bc it's my first full DH bike. So I was curious to try a DH dedicated frame to see what differences are. Second bc in all years of riding I conclude that the best thing is owning a bike for each discipline, one for XC, one for FR, one for DH and so on. I know it's not viable for most of us, but it's the best.
    I agree with everybody who said that it all depends the trails you're going to ride on most of time. It should dictate if you need a more FR or DH frame. Since HL can be used secondly for DH and el cuervo used secondly for FR IMO it's up to you which one suits you most.
    In my case HL will be my primary FR bike and el cuervo primary DH. For courses which asks for DC forks, deep cushion and travel el cuervo goes. For courses which are full of tight corners, less rocky, jumps a la slopestyle or DJ HL goes. And when one is on maintenance for whatever reason, you still have the other to keep riding, you don't have to miss a riding day with your buddies bc your bike is down.
    Conclusion: if you can afford go for both. If you don't think which one suits you most. I hope this helps.
    Alex

  71. #71
    %$#$*!
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    What about the Canfield Jedi? The rearward arc sounds like it would provide the bail-out travel that you want.

  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by ronny
    PC might be embracing a divorce if he gets a V-Tach
    Ain't that the truth. I think a poll is in order.

  73. #73
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    Did a ride in Trumbull yesterday on the V-tach. I am very impressed on how it rides and handles. I am running it at the steepest setting so it climbs better. Very fun bike. Only if I can climb better.

  74. #74
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    Great thread!

    As I am sold on a new Turner, the discussion about other bike brands is not as helpful as the discussion about FR vs. DH cuz that is where I am at right now - between buying a Highline and a DHR.

    Based upon the thoughtful comments from all, including Noel Buckley from Knolly, I am leaning toward the Highline as my big bike (I use a new RFX as my trail bike) for next year as I will be riding Whistler, Keystone, Sol Vista, Winter Park, etc. 80% of the time on this new bike and also using it for bushwhacking locals' secret gravity assisted trails with some amount of climbing the other 20%.

    Thanks all for the great thread and the insightful discussion. Good luck to PCinSC, too, on making a choice for your new ride.
    The reason dogs have so many friends is that they wag their tail instead of their tongues.

  75. #75
    Adrenaline Junkies Unite!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nagaredama
    How about a Cannondale Perp?
    • Adjustable travel 180/200mm
    • Takes a FD
    • Steep seat angle for climbing
    • 1.5 headtube
    • Sizes S to XL
    • Nice FR geo with a SC, good DH geo with a DC
    • Optional floating brake
    • $2000 for the frame far cheaper than a HL, Cuervo, or V-Tach


    The Perp is an incredible frame. Unfortunately Cdale doesn't put as much into marketing as other companies out there so the Perp isn't always on the top of everyone's minds. However it is a work of art (IMO). It's a very nimble and pedal friendly frame that loves to be in the air and handle technical descents. Pinkbike and Decline recently did reviews on the bike and both are very favorable.

    The V tach is awesome. Unfortunately, the price tag is too rich for most. However it is an incredible bike.

    The Perp can't be beat for the price. You can build it up to be light and still handle monstrous hucks/jumps and well as DH ridable. We were loving the Perp after doing some hard rides on it. In fact, we'll soon be doing a custom Perp build with many of our prototype parts. Who knows...perhaps we'll do one for the V Tach as well...but ouch on the price tag.
    Eric @ Wicked Adrenaline
    Wicked Adrenaline, Inc
    www.wickedadrenaline.com
    Myspace: http://www.myspace.com/wickedstreetteam

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