Taking a Hard Hit With Tubeless.......?- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    Taking a Hard Hit With Tubeless.......?

    I have this posted over in wheels and tires, but I think you guys will understand what Im talking about better:

    So, I finally switched over to tubless today. Ive been riding the 823's for a while but never made the jump. Now Im wondering what took me soooo long.

    Anyway, something I thought about. If I take a hard hit that would normally cause a snakebite with a tube, what will hapen on tubeless? Will it cause the bead to unseat bad enough I would end up with a flat anyway? Just a momentary burp? No Burp?

    I mostly ride DR and FR, but between 2 bikes I have both wire bead and folding bead tires. How much of a difference would that make in the 2 situations?

  2. #2
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    With the tubeless, if its a DH casing, i.e. double stength sidewalls, it will resist flatting to a degree that will surprise you. The impacts will generally not create holes in the tire carcass, just as a regular snake bite is typically able to hole and destroy a tube with two pretty good size holes, but not damage the tire itself. Of course any tire can tear a sidewall from a sharp rock/stick impact.

    It's not uncommon to flat spot or dent a rim and still keep on riding, not even knowing how badly the rim was damaged. Some rims will resist this more than others.. (some of the DT rims are notorious for being soft, and will dent up like a beer can, and not pinch flat a regular tire.)

    I've had some really bad rear "smacks" that rattled my teeth, but no pinch flat, both with wire, and kevlar beaded tires.

    Burping usually happens under very hard g-out cornering forces, when the tire is "rolling" off the rim, not so much being pushed against the rim as in a flat landing or direct impact with a ledge or log.

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    Quote Originally Posted by neverwalk
    With the tubeless, if its a DH casing, i.e. double stength sidewalls, it will resist flatting to a degree that will surprise you. The impacts will generally not create holes in the tire carcass, just as a regular snake bite is typically able to hole and destroy a tube with two pretty good size holes, but not damage the tire itself. Of course any tire can tear a sidewall from a sharp rock/stick impact.

    It's not uncommon to flat spot or dent a rim and still keep on riding, not even knowing how badly the rim was damaged. Some rims will resist this more than others.. (some of the DT rims are notorious for being soft, and will dent up like a beer can, and not pinch flat a regular tire.)

    I've had some really bad rear "smacks" that rattled my teeth, but no pinch flat, both with wire, and kevlar beaded tires.

    Burping usually happens under very hard g-out cornering forces, when the tire is "rolling" off the rim, not so much being pushed against the rim as in a flat landing or direct impact with a ledge or log.
    what he said. one thing to keep in mind, especially if you're a heavier rider, is that you're gonna be much more likely to tear gashes in the sidewalls from lots of repeated hard impacts with tubeless then you would be with tubes.

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    If you are banging your rims into the ground on a regular basis, you are running too little air pressure. Current super sticky tire compounds function better with a bit more air in them (traction comes from the compound, not an under-inflated tire). Higher pressures will also give more sidewall support, allowing better cornering with out excess knob/tire fold over. To top all that off, the same tire tubeless should be run with more pressure than if it was set-up with a tube. This is due to the ability of the tire-sans-tube to more easily confom to terrian.

  5. #5
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    I dented a rim yesterday at Big Bear, I wasnt surprised though considering the circumstances of the rock chute.

    Stupid steep, jagged rocks in excess of 16" all over and either protruding from ground or breaking away as you race through it. I hit the little rock center and aired out 1/2 way through the chute and landed on one of the jagged burried ones. It hit so hard it folded both sides out and flattened them against the rim as well as pushed it 1/2" toward the hub.
    Put a tube in inflatede to 35 and rode the rest of the day! :thumb:
    Thats the only time I have ran a tube in 3 years and it will be the only time I do or when I decide to ggash the top center treads clean off.

    Im 220 bare and ride over anything mentality, I paid for 8" of travel front and rear and Im going to get my $'s worth dammit!

    Tubeless rocks and tracks better, its the first time I have smaked a rim dent that hard, usually I blow the welds and taco the rim!
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    Sweet, thats exactly the info I was looking for.

    Thanks for the help all.

  7. #7
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    I've pinched flatted 2 or 3 tubeless tires. The rim actually pierced the BEAD of the tire, basically trashing it. I hit a big square edged rock coming down from a jump. It *IS* possible to pinch flat a tubeless tire, it's just a good bit harder to do. Overall tubeless (even without sealant) has proven to be ea bombproof setup for me.

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    I'll add my 2 cents to this as I've been on the 823's for 3 seasons now.

    I've had the best luck with Michelin tires with 823's due to their durability. I ripped a casing on a Maxxis Highroller and a new UST Kenda Nevegal. The Maxxis in question aquired a 1/2 inch hole after hitting a sharp rock. The Nevegal had the same problem except it happened 2 minutes after I mounted it and jumped some stairs! (Ever see Stans spraying out of a knob at 40 psi? It's kinda funny actually...)

    I've never had problems with Michelin DH tires except for wear. If you haven't tryed them you should.
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  9. #9
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    what I have found

    you can run higher air pressure, but it feels like you are running tubes with lower pressure.

    denting usully only happens when you run low air pressure

    for your riding....with lower pressure, the tire rolls on the rim during turns

    bottomline: run around 28 to 36 psi

    Michelin tires seem to work the best......maxxis tires will burb on drops and hard cornering and you need to add air....if you are doing Whistler type runs....probably need to check the maxxis mid day and night...with Michelins you don't worry (still check once a day at Whistler)

    make sure you run stans with them and shake the living shiat out of the bottle of stans before you put it in tire....

    FYI Always keep valve stem at top when feeling up with air...if you have it at bottom the goo can get in valve or worse - your pump

    bring super glue with you.....most holes will seal but if not use superglue...if glueing a hole make sure there is no air or the glue will splatter your face.

    sometimes you will get a hole that doesn't seal fast enough....you can put a blast of CO2 air and get riding again

    In southern california....stans dries out so you need to add another cup every 3 months
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  10. #10
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    DaveP has it down. To add on to what he said.... higher pressure also gives you a faster rolling tire.

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  11. #11
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    Both sides look like this! Had to put a tube in and ran it this way the rest of the day! Aside of that tubeless is

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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by bullcrew
    Both sides look like this! Had to put a tube in and ran it this way the rest of the day! Aside of that tubeless is ]
    there's ur problem....u powdercoated them white.....everyone knows black is stronger
    the trick is ENJOYING YOUR LIFE EACH DAY, don't waste them away wishing for better days

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    I was talking to my Bro the other day trying to convince him to go tubeless. The conversation went to what products with tires still use tubes. The only thing that came to mind was Hand trucks(Dolly) and riding lawnmowers. I still dont know why people are running tubes on $3000+ bikes.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by SHIVER ME TIMBERS
    what I have found

    you can run higher air pressure, but it feels like you are running tubes with lower pressure.

    denting usully only happens when you run low air pressure

    for your riding....with lower pressure, the tire rolls on the rim during turns

    bottomline: run around 28 to 36 psi

    Michelin tires seem to work the best......maxxis tires will burb on drops and hard cornering and you need to add air....if you are doing Whistler type runs....probably need to check the maxxis mid day and night...with Michelins you don't worry (still check once a day at Whistler)

    make sure you run stans with them and shake the living shiat out of the bottle of stans before you put it in tire....

    FYI Always keep valve stem at top when feeling up with air...if you have it at bottom the goo can get in valve or worse - your pump

    bring super glue with you.....most holes will seal but if not use superglue...if glueing a hole make sure there is no air or the glue will splatter your face.

    sometimes you will get a hole that doesn't seal fast enough....you can put a blast of CO2 air and get riding again

    In southern california....stans dries out so you need to add another cup every 3 months

    Well said... This is like the definitive tubeless FAQ
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by SHIVER ME TIMBERS
    there's ur problem....u powdercoated them white.....everyone knows black is stronger
    LMAO! I figured since my white PC had Titanium pigment it meant it would be super strong! [email protected] guess not!
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  16. #16
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    Ask Bull Screw about gnar flat hucking to flat with single ply Kenda's and tubeless. Old habits die hard I guess.

    That's the first useful post of technical information I've seen from SMT in...well...at all.

    I avoid tubeless like the plague. I would have no problems at all burping tires in corners no matter what the hell pressure I was running.
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  17. #17
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    deng this is scarying me !

    my bro just converted my wheels to ghetto tubeless over the weekend on a non ust kenda kinetics tires. i have no experience running tubeless tires at all, and to be honest i dont even know what to do incase i get a flat or holes lolz.

    do you think it will get busted riding tunnel trail in santa barbara ? im thinking of bringing 2 extra tubes incase my tires explodes ! hahaha.

    im currently running 35.5 in the rear and 30.5 in the front, i weight 220 - 225 with gears. should i increase the air volume more to avoid flats ?

    may be ill do a quick run at "the bird" before hitting tunnel. wowzer !

    i gotta be honest i have never felt tires sticks so well before until i ran tubeless, but then again i have never tried it on a very techinical trail.
    im just scared that it might pop while im riding some technical terrain, specially on a non UST tires.

    any suggestion ? should i just rip the tires and put my old tubes back ? hahaha
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Newbie Wan Kenobi
    do you think it will get busted riding tunnel trail in santa barbara ?
    Haaaaaa! Tunnel isn't a hard trail but it's flat and it'll test your tire casing like none other. Good luck with that.
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigmike00
    I was talking to my Bro the other day trying to convince him to go tubeless. The conversation went to what products with tires still use tubes. The only thing that came to mind was Hand trucks(Dolly) and riding lawnmowers. I still dont know why people are running tubes on $3000+ bikes.
    How about the one kind of vehicle that has the most in common with DH Mountainbikes?




    I'm not saying anything against tubeless on mountainbikes, but saying tubes are dead because most other vehicles don't use them is kind of ridiculous. Dirtbikes have spoked wheels like mountainbikes, and guess what, most of them still run tubes.

    There is even an equivalent of "stans tubeless" for MX bikes: https://www.mxresultz.com/sponsorpro...=85&news_id=74
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  20. #20
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    I've ran 823's and recently swapped back to 721's & tubes.

    Echo others comments about pinch flats, I have had SO many up by the bead where the sealant can't get to, its beyond a joke.

    No more tubeless for me. It makes a right mess when you're trying to change the tyres too.

  21. #21
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    deng this is not good !

    if there's anything accident would be my last option, may be i should run it on some other techinical local trails like suicide, bird, or wilson before before i head down to tunnel.

    ill give it a try but soon as i get a flat on either one of those trails im switching back to tubes for sure.
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    I wouldn't listen to the hate. In my opinion ghetto tubeless sucks, but true UST tires on UST wheels rocks hard. Even with ghetto tubeless, what's the worst that could happen? You just throw in a tube and ride like you normally do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lelebebbel
    How about the one kind of vehicle that has the most in common with DH Mountainbikes?




    I'm not saying anything against tubeless on mountainbikes, but saying tubes are dead because most other vehicles don't use them is kind of ridiculous. Dirtbikes have spoked wheels like mountainbikes, and guess what, most of them still run tubes.

    There is even an equivalent of "stans tubeless" for MX bikes: https://www.mxresultz.com/sponsorpro...=85&news_id=74

    Tubes are going to be obsolete in a few years, sort like v-brakes. They belong on tractors and wheelbarrows. Just because it hasn't caught on in the motocross world doesn't mean tubes don't suck.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim311
    I wouldn't listen to the hate. In my opinion ghetto tubeless sucks, but true UST tires on UST wheels rocks hard. Even with ghetto tubeless, what's the worst that could happen? You just throw in a tube and ride like you normally do.
    Yeah, Tubeless haters are a few but are out there. They have one bad time with tubeless and are so use to just putting in a tube and riding that they get turned off. Stick with UST rims and UST tire's and you will be set. It's more of the Ghetto tubeless stories then anything that tubeless gets it's bad situation stories from.

  25. #25
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    You will be fine! I dented the rim above on a nasty rockchute and still managed to get to the bottom with it all over the place. If it had a tube in it earlier Id have had several pinch flats and the day would have been a bust.
    Tubeless is great, less flats, no snake bites and if you do hammer it hard enough to flat you would have had a pinch flat with a tube anywase.
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    i see.. i see...

    well since im running tubeless right now i might as well try it.

    so far i like it, coz it makes my wheels run more straighter than before and i also like how the tires stick to the ground alot better. not just that ! it made my wheelset alot lighter, so im definitely givnig this a try.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigmike00
    Yeah, Tubeless haters are a few but are out there. They have one bad time with tubeless and are so use to just putting in a tube and riding that they get turned off. Stick with UST rims and UST tire's and you will be set. It's more of the Ghetto tubeless stories then anything that tubeless gets it's bad situation stories from.
    I dont even think UST tires are necessary. The 823's make it really easy, just add stans and go. Ive done a few days of riding on my DH bike with the tubeless setup and im stoked. Drops, rock gardens...its all good. I did the rear wheel on my Uzzi which has the folding bead Nevegals. Its got a really slow leak, but the tire is pretty old. The more I rotate the wheel and spread the Stans around the slower it gets, so its all good. Ghetto style, and to a lesser degree the Stans rim strip for non UST rims would be a bit harder I think. Either way, Im glad I thought ahead and got the 823's when I had my wheels built, even if it took me this long to actually switch to tubeless.

    On my DH bike I had 2.125 - 2.5 non DH tubes, and saved 6ozs per wheel for 12oz total. That 3/4 lb of rotating mass saved. My Uzzi had a bit heavier Kenda tube in the rear and I saved 10oz on just the rear.

    Here are my tips for setting it up: you cant just throw on a new tire and expect it bead easy. If you have new tires put them on with tubes and let then sit a day or so to strech them out a bit. Then, when you pull the tube out only de-bead ONE SIDE of the tire. Leave the other completely beaded still. Pull out the tube, put in your stans and you will have NO PROBLEM beading, even with a floor pump. Then follow the rest of the directions from the Stans video. I didnt even need soapy water. Beading was my main problem previously. But now that Im riding tubeless I dont think Ill ever go back. I wish I had known the secret sooner.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigmike00
    Yeah, Tubeless haters are a few but are out there. They have one bad time with tubeless and are so use to just putting in a tube and riding that they get turned off. Stick with UST rims and UST tire's and you will be set. It's more of the Ghetto tubeless stories then anything that tubeless gets it's bad situation stories from.

    Yep, ghetto tubeless has screwed up the reputation. Seems like a lot of people really don't know what REAL tubeless is all about. It's bombproof unless you do it ghetto. I've heard some success stories from ghetto setups BUT if you're going to go that route you can't blame anyone but yourself if you have problems or failures that stem from doing exactly what manufacturers say you SHOULDNT do.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim311
    Yep, ghetto tubeless has screwed up the reputation. Seems like a lot of people really don't know what REAL tubeless is all about. It's bombproof unless you do it ghetto. I've heard some success stories from ghetto setups BUT if you're going to go that route you can't blame anyone but yourself if you have problems or failures that stem from doing exactly what manufacturers say you SHOULDNT do.
    LMAO! I think the main reason peeps get angered aboput it is from ther strip going under the tire before inflation or pinching it with tire levers casuing it to leak.
    As far as reliability I have had nothing but great luck. Ghetto and stans, I use them both and my kids is ghetto as well as several other guys I ride/race with and they are mostly ghetto.

    Moral of the story is dont blame the ghetto rather the fools not getting it!
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  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by bullcrew
    Both sides look like this! Had to put a tube in and ran it this way the rest of the day! Aside of that tubeless is


    Damn, I think I'd cry if I did that to my wheel.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by rep_1969
    Damn, I think I'd cry if I did that to my wheel.
    Nah, it crippled the rest of the day with a big wobble and held with a temp set up (tube).
    It definentlty didn't want to hold air via tubeless after that!
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    I ran 823's,michelin's and tubeless with stans for three seasons,I weight 190 and ran 25lb front and rear,punctured at Idaho and at Mt Snow,stans did it's magic and podiumed both races,no doubt using tubes would have killed my race.tubeless betters your chance of finishing a race and gives peace of mind.tubes make no sense anymore.

  33. #33
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    hmm intresting..

    my main concern is i dont want to dent my rims incase i get a flat or hit something edgy, just the fact that i dont have extra dough to spend to buy a new 1 ahahaha.

    but i will definitely give it a shot, but as far as how my wheels set feels now. i might consider buying UST wheels and tires and convert it properly later on.
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  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Newbie Wan Kenobi
    hmm intresting..

    my main concern is i dont want to dent my rims incase i get a flat or hit something edgy, just the fact that i dont have extra dough to spend to buy a new 1 ahahaha.

    but i will definitely give it a shot, but as far as how my wheels set feels now. i might consider buying UST wheels and tires and convert it properly later on.
    A tube isnt going to save your rim in an impact! If you hit it hard enough tubeless as I did you would have already destroyed the tube anywase and the rim is the next impact spot!
    You will have more issues in most cases with tubes flatting and then denting your rim then you will with tubeless! Less flats less likely to smash a rim (unless you are runiing really low pressure then the tubes will snake bite and either will allow impact!)
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  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Newbie Wan Kenobi
    deng this is not good !

    if there's anything accident would be my last option, may be i should run it on some other techinical local trails like suicide, bird, or wilson before before i head down to tunnel.

    ill give it a try but soon as i get a flat on either one of those trails im switching back to tubes for sure.
    I burped them reliably by sliding around on Wilson. That sucked.
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  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim311
    I wouldn't listen to the hate. In my opinion ghetto tubeless sucks, but true UST tires on UST wheels rocks hard. Even with ghetto tubeless, what's the worst that could happen? You just throw in a tube and ride like you normally do.
    I have 5 + years without a tube on any of my MTBs without ANY 'tubeless' related failure.....I have NEVER owned a UST rim.....

    I think like just about anything else, the outcome has a LOT to do with the input...ie your average teenager doing a tubeless conversion = 100% failure...

    Someone willing to spend the time to read set-up and follow instructions/recomendations..AND... running propper tires, rims, suspension, and pressure for their individual needs (terrain, conditions, tire, speed, suspension set-up, rider weight, agressiveness/line choice = (IME) great and more reliable than any tube system.

  37. #37
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    Tubeless has to be one of the best things I have done to my bike in a long time. I run 729s and have it set up ghetto tubeless with a MAXXIS 2.7 minion up front and a chunder in the back. The maxxis seats easily and doesn't burp AT ALL, it holds air much better than michelin's too, barely loses any air after sitting for a few weeks. The chunder was a b!tch to seat but holds air well and doesn't burp either but I tore the sidewall so it has a tube in it right now. I've hit both the front and rims hard enough to dent bad and nothing happened to the tires, not even a burp.

  38. #38
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    okay this is starting to sound very good !

    im leaning more to tubeless now hahaha.

    i jumped around and tried running over curves with out lifting the front and it seems to hold good. i think im gonna be alright ! but i still have to try it on a real technical trail to see if tubeless can hold my big ass ! lolz by way im 210 and can be 230 max with all my gears, also running 30.5 in the front and 35.5 in rear just to see if my ghetto set up is still leaking air.

    it's been couple of days and last time i checked it seems like its already been sealed, so all i have to do now is ride it over the weekend..
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    I ran a set of 823's with hadleys and double butted spokes for two solid seasons of over 50 races,had one small flat spot on rear,and other then those punctures I never had any other issues or flatted in a race.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by davep
    I have 5 + years without a tube on any of my MTBs without ANY 'tubeless' related failure.....I have NEVER owned a UST rim.....

    I think like just about anything else, the outcome has a LOT to do with the input...ie your average teenager doing a tubeless conversion = 100% failure...

    Someone willing to spend the time to read set-up and follow instructions/recomendations..AND... running propper tires, rims, suspension, and pressure for their individual needs (terrain, conditions, tire, speed, suspension set-up, rider weight, agressiveness/line choice = (IME) great and more reliable than any tube system.

    I agree completely. If you do your research and run tires that others have had good experiences with you are far more likely to ride without any problems or failures. However, if you want to KNOW that there will be no problems without any research whatsoever, stick with UST tires and UST rims. The setup has proved to be amazing for me and I hope tubes go away and that every wheelset made from this point on is tubeless.

  41. #41
    NEWBIE WAN KENOBI
    Reputation: Newbie Wan Kenobi's Avatar
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    Aug 2006
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    357
    yo james !

    nice meeting you goin up rockypeak, by the way my tires held up pretty good at hummingbird.

    until it got little hotter on our second run when we hit up the spot, i think i might've lost 5 psi front and rear. other than that it held up pretty good and im alot happier running tubeless now !
    DO YOU BUTT QUEEF ?

  42. #42
    mtbr member
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    8,218
    Quote Originally Posted by Newbie Wan Kenobi
    im alot happier running tubeless now !
    Nice.

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