Some food for thought for illegal trail builders...- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    Some food for thought for illegal trail builders...

    There is a bill in the House of Representatives that Representative Tom Tancredo (R-CO) recently introduced H.R. 975, the TRAIL Act of 2005. It will mostly go for $380 million for trail funding nation wide, but here's the kicker. If you get caught building or acting inappropriately on public land you will get the fine and or jail time, plus have to pay all of the court costs. What they don't say in the bill is what the fines will be, but it does say they are misdemeanors class a or b. Here's the text of the bill, but I am sure it will change before becoming permanent. http://www.arra-access.com/arra/hr_975.html There are several groups pushing this through due to the $380 million. I'm not saying don't build, but I wouldn't want to get caught doing it because now you will have the National Park Service, the Fish and Wildlife Service, the Bureau of Land Management and the Forest Service all able to issue fines. Figures they would run this through as one bill.
    Pat T.

  2. #2
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    hmmm...I was under the impression it was a felony and fines...or are they changing it down to a misdemeanor and fines???

  3. #3
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    well,


    no matter how hard you try, you can't stop us now.....


  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by .WestCoastHucker.
    well,

    no matter how hard you try, you can't stop us now.....
    You need some guitar in there with that post:


  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by .WestCoastHucker.
    well,


    no matter how hard you try, you can't stop us now.....
    we are the Renegades!!!

    they are able to impound are bikes here in NYC if we are caught ridng them where we shouldnt...im not too sure what happens if they catch us building but im sure they'll summon us and we'll end up paying hefty fines.

  6. #6
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    lets see choices

    jail, fine and arrest or shovel to the head (easy choice after exhausting all other possiblities.

    besides to patrol areas cost too much money. budgets are too thin
    the trick is ENJOYING YOUR LIFE EACH DAY, don't waste them away wishing for better days

  7. #7
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    I will continue that thought, in case SMT doesnt mind.

    Imagine this... one patrol officer (with the most dangerous weapon of all.... a flashlight!!) meets 15, egh... 5 riders with shovels and such in the middle of the woods.
    \

    On the other hand you have one more way out of the situation. Running. You can easily get away, especially with our kind of bikes, you know the trails and they probably dont. Unless there is alot of pedaling involved. They are trained for this, but I doubt that they will be able to keep up with you anyway. When you are pedalling for your life, you can run the same course as Gracia and come twice as fast. (that last part was a joke, kinda)


    I say f u c k them, sure some will get caught, but we will still come back to parks, just being a little more careful.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shibby
    You need some guitar in there with that post:

    Tom Morello, my all time favorite guitarist. Damn I miss Rage

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morda
    Imagine this... one patrol officer (with the most dangerous weapon of all.... a flashlight!!)
    ...and a radio to call for backup.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morda
    On the other hand you have one more way out of the situation. Running. You can easily get away, especially with our kind of bikes, you know the trails and they probably dont. Unless there is alot of pedaling involved.
    They are a park ranger and don't know the area? Haha. Unless there is lots of pedaling involved of course.
    Don't believe everything that you think.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morda
    I say f u c k them, sure some will get caught, but we will still come back to parks, just being a little more careful.
    survival of the fittest man. the kiddies who cant get outta there are screwed.

  11. #11
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    Originally Posted by Morda
    Imagine this... one NYPD officer (with the most dangerous weapon of all.... a flashlight!!) meets 25 riders in the middle of Central Park.

    you have one way out of the situation. RUNNING...




    I know where you come from....

  12. #12
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    f*ck running, if anyone comes telling me im under arrest theyre getting a shovel to the head, then i split

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanD
    Tom Morello, my all time favorite guitarist. Damn I miss Rage
    but now you get the good part of rage and the sexy voice of Chris Cornell...AUDIOSLAVE ROCKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by irieness
    but now you get the good part of rage and the sexy voice of Chris Cornell...AUDIOSLAVE ROCKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    I liked Chris Cornell in Sound Garden, and I like Audio Slave alright, but I thing RATM blows any Audio Slave or Sound Garden out of the water

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanD
    I liked Chris Cornell in Sound Garden, and I like Audio Slave alright, but I thing RATM blows any Audio Slave or Sound Garden out of the water
    oooooh....you just made it on my ignore list...

    but Chris is such a sex GOD...
    gotta say tho...Tom Morello is one of the greatest guitarists EVER....

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by frank n. beans
    ...and a radio to call for backup.


    They are a park ranger and don't know the area? Haha. Unless there is lots of pedaling involved of course.
    well i think what he means is they wouldn't know the trail. assuming the park rangers were on foot or on bicycles they would be at a huge disadvantage going down a crazy freeride trail that you built while you would be going down it at mach 1 and know all the lines. they probably couldn't get down it let alone ride it fast enough to keep up with you.

  17. #17
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    Ask the Hick Hucksters from TN (I think) about being caught. They have a website and a link on transition bikes site from a review.
    If I recall correctly it was by agents with automatic rifles and full turnout gear on.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by irieness
    ...it's just that when I'm wondering what things are like head tube, seat post, cranks, flux capacitor, SS, FS, hardtail...

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kronk
    Ask the Hick Hucksters from TN (I think) about being caught. They have a website and a link on transition bikes site from a review.
    If I recall correctly it was by agents with automatic rifles and full turnout gear on.
    Exactly, and if any LEO stumbles upon your illegal activity and is dangerously outnumbered or outgunned they will either call for backup or do a stakeout. How often do you hear of a single cop raiding a house full of people singlehanded?

    I don't think the idea here is to call in the swat team on people building dirt jumps in that empty lot behind the mall... more like national / state forests and whatnot.

    But yeah, outrun them on your bike unless there is much pedalling involved.
    Don't believe everything that you think.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by bentimby
    f*ck running, if anyone comes telling me im under arrest theyre getting a shovel to the head, then i split
    Yea, and then spend 5-10 in jail for felony assault of an officer. Good call.

    -TS
    Fayetteville, AR and N.W.A RePrEsEnT

  21. #21
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    What about them Rangers w/ guns? You'd be having a hard time communicating signals from your brain to your legs, when your brain is splattered on the nearest tree.
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  22. #22
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    Tough guy eh?

    Quote Originally Posted by bentimby
    f*ck running, if anyone comes telling me im under arrest theyre getting a shovel to the head, then i split
    Brilliant.
    Don't believe everything that you think.

  23. #23
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    what constitues as ilegal trail building? altering the trails? building stunts or jumps? just riding off a trail? cutting new trails?

  24. #24
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    All the above w/o permission of the landowner or manager.

    There's some good info on IMBAs website about working w/ land managers, making trails, etc.. http://www.imba.com/
    Last edited by Locoman; 03-09-2005 at 07:23 PM.
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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheSherpa
    Yea, and then spend 5-10 in jail for felony assault of an officer. Good call.

    -TS
    yeah since hes gonna know who you are when he wakes up

  26. #26
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    That's harsh man. Gotta love those damned lawyers, dontcha? I mean, what are they gonna do with some densely forested plot of land anyways? Let the animals roam? Psssh. I say let the bikers build and the hikers and horsebackriders go the f*ck around!
    "Sorry." John Belushi, Animal House

  27. #27
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    right on

    Quote Originally Posted by bikescars101
    That's harsh man. Gotta love those damned lawyers, dontcha? I mean, what are they gonna do with some densely forested plot of land anyways? Let the animals roam? Psssh. I say let the bikers build and the hikers and horsebackriders go the f*ck around!
    Cut down all the stupid trees too so we can have cheap lumber to build stunts.
    Don't believe everything that you think.

  28. #28
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    And the stupidest post of the day award goes to......Bentimby (cue applause)

  29. #29
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    Does the word "preservation" mean nothing to you kids? Imagine your kids and their kids, what are they going to ride?

    What is going to improve trails more 5 of your friends and a few shovels or $380 million dollars? Do the math, write to your congressman then grow up.

    Major bike companies would be appalled to hear what you guys have to say.

    https://www.arra-access.com/campaign...onEquityActHR3


  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by .WestCoastHucker.
    well,


    no matter how hard you try, you can't stop us now.....
    rage is damn good

  31. #31
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    damn hippies

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by phoeneous
    Does the word "preservation" mean nothing to you kids? Imagine your kids and their kids, what are they going to ride?

    What is going to improve trails more 5 of your friends and a few shovels or $380 million dollars? Do the math, write to your congressman then grow up.
    Show me ONE bike trail that has ever truly threatened a forest. I don't know where you live but this little piggyback sounds like it might be another green sticker "alternative income" kind of thing like oregon has. They voted for trail maintenence and got a bunch of parking lot enforcers writing tickets instead. Expanded logging rights bares the name "healthy forest initiative". Don't believe everything you read. I'm not so sure preservation is the end all be all of this thing.

    Besides, true preservation means very little to either the congress or the executives in power right now. Please excuse me for being suspicious of whatever comes from either for the next few years.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by zachdank
    it isn't about the major bike companys. it's about the people who ride. that is us fool. we are the trail builders. we are the revolution. get a clue. our kids will ride what we build. yeah by the time our kids have grown up there will be no mo trails to ride cuz we destroyed the forests w/ our single track. "grow up" STFU!
    The Revolution? Muahahahahah, what are you French? You get a clue, the government is giving money and youd rather not accept it. I ride too and I but I ride what is already sanctioned. Why is it so difficult for you to communicate with land authority and builders...fool. Revolution...pppffftt. Let me guess, Neo is your cousin too huh?

    If you took the time to actually read instead of jumping to conclusions you would realize that these pl are trying to help mtb'ers and the like.

    Statement of Purpose
    Americans for Responsible Recreational Access (ARRA) was formed to ensure that Americans are not arbitrarily denied the right to responsibly experience and enjoy the public lands that belong to the citizens of the United States. The members of ARRA, which include horseback riders, personal watercraft users, off-highway vehicle and snowmobile riders, and vacationing families, have joined together to provide input on decisions regarding land use designation, recreation opportunities, and preservation. Its members seek responsible consideration of competing activities, which are based on sound environmental principles.

    No alliance member believes that recreation enthusiasts have the right to exclusive, unregulated use of our national heritage, but all oppose land closure or extreme regulation, which denies responsible citizens access to public lands for multifaceted recreational pursuits.

    ARRA focuses on the entire spectrum of issues surrounding the Crisis of Closure. We work with the Bush Administration and its agencies, Congress, local governmental representatives and most importantly, the citizens who care about maintaining access to public lands and waterways for outdoor recreational activities.

    ARRA also serves as a central clearinghouse for the many like-minded initiatives and individuals who fight for fundamental fairness in public land designation and recreation opportunity.
    Last edited by phoeneous; 03-09-2005 at 11:50 PM.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by kidwoo
    Show me ONE bike trail that has ever truly threatened a forest. I don't know where you live but this little piggyback sounds like it might be another green sticker "alternative income" kind of thing like oregon has. They voted for trail maintenence and got a bunch of parking lot enforcers writing tickets instead. Expanded logging rights bares the name "healthy forest initiative". Don't believe everything you read. I'm not so sure preservation is the end all be all of this thing.

    Besides, true preservation means very little to either the congress or the executives in power right now. Please excuse me for being suspicious of whatever comes from either for the next few years.
    Vegas where its nothing but desert. If I lived in BC or Washington, Id still feel the same way. Besides, the money has already been taken from us why not put it to good use.

    Im not knocking trail building but there is a right way and a wrong way to do things.

    Ive spoken with several representatives from land management companies here and as long as noone own the lady (private) they will be more than happy to authorize and appropriate build.

  35. #35
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    i still don't see how kids going out and building foot wide trails through the woods is going to ruin a forrest.

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by phoeneous
    Vegas where its nothing but desert. If I lived in BC or Washington, Id still feel the same way. Besides, the money has already been taken from us why not put it to good use.

    Im not knocking trail building but there is a right way and a wrong way to do things.

    Ive spoken with several representatives from land management companies here and as long as noone own the lady (private) they will be more than happy to authorize and appropriate build.
    they did that by me and it turned into all the good trails being closed and a nice paved bike path. i think we know what we want to ride so we should be able to build it. they have no clue, at least with my experience.

  37. #37
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    Just what the internet needs, another e-thug Have fun with your shovels and Ill enjoy my $390 million.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by zachdank
    e-thug, e-hucker, e-shredder, e-pimp. i am the regulator of clowns on the intraweb so step off. i'm sure you'll do alot w/ your 390 bazillion. get back on your hardrock, head to the 7-11,and get me my 40 biatch.
    Ah, you do construction that explains everything. Have fun on my ignore list little boy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zachdank
    e-thug, e-hucker, e-shredder, e-pimp. i am the regulator of clowns on the intraweb so step off. i'm sure you'll do alot w/ your 390 bazillion. get back on your hardrock, head to the 7-11,and get me my 40 biatch.
    P3WNED

  40. #40
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  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by phoeneous
    Major bike companies would be appalled to hear what you guys have to say.
    Don't be so quick to assume. We realize and appreciate that there is a place for both. Legislation is the reall deal, and needs to run its course. But without radical activists, there's nothing keeping it on the front burner. A bunch of pissed off kids can bring a lot of attention to the cause, and even when it's initially negative, it provides us with the opportunity to condemn thier acts publicly, and in the same breath, push the initiatives we all stand for. It all falls under the "All press is good press" theory.

    Welcome to politics.

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Master Shake
    Don't be so quick to assume. We realize and appreciate that there is a place for both. Legislation is the reall deal, and needs to run its course. But without radical activists, there's nothing keeping it on the front burner. A bunch of pissed off kids can bring a lot of attention to the cause, and even when it's initially negative, it provides us with the opportunity to condemn thier acts publicly, and in the same breath, push the initiatives we all stand for. It all falls under the "All press is good press" theory.

    Welcome to politics.
    Finally someone with a brain!

    I agree with your statement but 90% of the ppl in this thread have no clue whats going on. They think its a battle when really its a compromise. These ppl are helping us, not fighting us.

    all oppose land closure or extreme regulation
    Sounds alot like freeriders to me.

    The damage is already done with gasoline prices, why not take what we deserve? Im all for building trails but if it lands me in jail forget it. Its not worth it.

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by phoeneous
    Vegas where its nothing but desert. .
    What are you saying? That trails are responsible for desert? Or that somehow trails in a desert environment are more harmful? I live right on the cusp of both desert and dense high alpine forest on the Cal/Nevada state line and I still stand by my earlier assertion that targeting trail builders through fines and possible jail time is highly misguided. Seriously, I'm curious about what you mean. Especially since I'm also a hydrologist who works with data from Vegas dealing with flood and sediment discharges.

    But since we're on Vegas, let's talk about Bootleg Canyon. I don't know if you're familiar with the place but it's a city park that recieves funding for trail construction and maintenance. Boulder City is one of the few areas in Nevada that doesn't allow gambling. They rely on tourism, part of which is a regular inflow of mountain bikers during the winter as well as the bike demo for interbike. Almost every one of those trails was illegally built. When the county caught the few responsible for the majority of the work, rather than go down without a fight, one of them convinced the county to make it a park which could legitimately generate revenue. They listened and now it does. And this city park is what you can now call a legal trail. Further demonizing the act of pathway building would have kept Boulder City in obscure irellevance as far a bikes are concerned. Something very good came out of those illegally built trails.

    Quote Originally Posted by phoeneous
    If I lived in BC or Washington, Id still feel the same way. Besides, the money has already been taken from us why not put it to good use..
    Putting it to good use is a great idea. Putting a stipulation in about criminalizing someone who rakes aside some deadfall in a 2 foot wide strip is absurd.

    Quote Originally Posted by phoeneous
    Im not knocking trail building but there is a right way and a wrong way to do things..
    I couldn't agree more. The truth is that even illegal trails that are worth riding and see some degree of longevity are that way because someone who knew what they were doing put the time into doing it right from a construction standpoint. I don't think I need to be in some rangers face to approach things from the legal side of it to make my voice heard. But having trails done right can lead to them being adopted by the authorities. Even here there is a trail built by random contributors over the last few years that now appears on forest service maps. There's even a sign for it off of the most used xc trail in the area.

    We've even got some dirt jumps built on BLM land that a local county park division is talking about taking over. They even brought up a parking lot and bathrooms! This for our ILLEGAL building. Now instead of learning how to shoot ak-47s and making meth, kids can come ride their 20" bmx bikes with us.

    Quote Originally Posted by phoeneous
    Ive spoken with several representatives from land management companies here and as long as noone own the lady (private) they will be more than happy to authorize and appropriate build.
    I wish our local USFS folks were so kind. But for the most part they're not. I for one am not going to sit around with my fingers crossed waiting for someone else to build the trails I and many others would like to be riding.

    I grew up skateboarding having to build or find everything I wanted to ride. So did most in that sport. Local governments recognized a need there eventually..........and now there are public skateparks everywhere, treated just like a baseball diamond there for the community to use. I would love to see the same thing happen for bikes. Sitting around in community discussion groups with public land managers only goes so far. Trust me, I really do know. It may be different where you live?

    Trailbuilders aren't criminals. You want real preservation? Shoot a developer.

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by phoeneous
    Just what the internet needs, another e-thug Have fun with your shovels and Ill enjoy my $390 million.

    chump.

    You have no idea who you are talking to or what you are saying... you are sadly mistaken in some of your preconcieved notions.

    I get to ride and work and help raise money with some of the ONLY approved free ride trails around...

    http://blackrockfreeride.org/mx/index.php

    This is how to get it done... the 'pass bills for tons of trail money' MAY be a wolf in sheeps clothing, and that's all that was trying to be stated... along with the fact that what we/they do at Blackrock is done without any money from anyone other than the riders who dig and build. We do fund rasiers to raise cash for tools/etc...

    Keep your goverment and your politics out of my woods, they can keep their money and their policies and we'll all be better off. We don't need their money, we need them to understand WE KNOW what we want, and we build LEGALLY. We don't needsome suits and granola mini vanners wasting a bunch of tax payers coin falsely.

    I will be reading and reseraching this further and will be the first to apologize if my skepticism of this bill is errouneous.

    BTW:

    Zach digs on PRIVATE / APPROVED land.. not 'down by the river' on crappy stunts ... his trail the STINC is one of the most well constructed pieces of art South of BC... so get a clue foo!

    Without too much sappy caution I would say that when bills like this come up I am always reminded of the promises made to the indians with words of preservation and funding....

    What we are saying is 'we've been there, done that'... read between the lines/lies before jumping on the 'cool free trail money' wagon. In the end, it may prove that you're just another chump or 390 million dolla ho.

  45. #45
    Who are the brain police?
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    I get it now! You're 17.

    An age where for some the brain hasn't matured as much as the body... thus lots of posturing.
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  46. #46
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    Extremely well said and be careful guys

    Quote Originally Posted by kidwoo
    We've even got some dirt jumps built on BLM land that a local county park division is talking about taking over. They even brought up a parking lot and bathrooms! This for our ILLEGAL building. Now instead of learning how to shoot ak-47s and making meth, kids can come ride their 20" bmx bikes with us.

    I wish our local USFS folks were so kind. But for the most part they're not. I for one am not going to sit around with my fingers crossed waiting for someone else to build the trails I and many others would like to be riding.
    Sitting around in community discussion groups with public land managers only goes so far. Trust me, I really do know. It may be different where you live?

    Trailbuilders aren't criminals. You want real preservation? Shoot a developer.

    Excellent post K.W. I also wanted to warn you guys that it's not so much the "lone" ranger you will need to worry about but people like "good citizens"...this winter I was riding in the Bay Area and got lost, was on some "hiker only" singletrack when a volunteer patrol dude started screaming at us. I pulled out the crappy map and was like "where the bleep are we, dude?" and tried to be cool. He escorted us out and was going to call us in I think but maybe saw I had NV plates. Plus I kept carping that the trails weren't marked well for a "furriner" like myself so we didn't get fined.

    www.hickhucksters.com has a write-up and nasty story about what can happen.

    A little OT, but this federal control is troublesome to me, especially from the party that claims "smaller gov't" all the time. It reminds me of when Bush I was in office and park rangers in Yosemite had night vision scopes and would bust illegal campers (usually dirt bag climbers like me) all night long. They'd have a posse literally with horses and back up in case people ran. They seemed to lose funding throughout most of the 90's, and I haven't seen them out at night with their scopes (yet? again?...)

    So..be careful, that "one guy" could cause you a whole lot of trouble these days...
    "Republicans, Democrats and American people who support giving up a little liberty for a small measure of security (such as the Patriot Act) deserve neither."
    -Ben Franklin, paraphrased

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  47. #47
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    phoeneous:

    I just checked your profile out of curiosity to see where you were from.

    So you DO know the story with bootleg and Brent right?

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    I only build illegal trails on State Forest land and State Game lands......usually in locations that were just ruptured by logging.......

    To the authorities, good luck getting off your fattt a$$$ and catching me......

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cant Climb
    I only build illegal trails on State Forest land and State Game lands......usually in locations that were just ruptured by logging.......

    To the authorities, good luck getting off your fattt a$$$ and catching me......
    ..........I bet you can't dodge bullets on you r bike speedy. It's people like you that get sh_t shut down.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beau
    ..........I bet you can't dodge bullets on you r bike speedy. It's people like you that get sh_t shut down.
    Actually wouldn't it be the [email protected] people that help you out...that way they preoccupy "the man" with their trail and not yours...you should be thanking him rather than trying to be the smarter [email protected]

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    Quote Originally Posted by irieness
    Actually wouldn't it be the [email protected] people that help you out...that way they preoccupy "the man" with their trail and not yours...you should be thanking him rather than trying to be the smarter [email protected]

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  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beau
    Welcome to "Dank's WORLD"
    wouldn't that be YOUR world???

    Quote Originally Posted by Beau
    Fu(k weed!! If you want a real rush, try doing a quarter gram of cocain and racing BMX, expert class! There's a figgin rush, and my heart just about blew! I've done all kinds of drugs while riding


    edit: sorry had to...this was just too funny to me to pass up... ...it's okay...I stick my foot in my mouth all the time...

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    you wasted your time looking for that post...WOW...Live and learn........I was young...and VERY stupid....

    I love how the same people always jump on the Zachdank bandwagon..."ALL ABOARD"

    ...on a added note. The is a city near me that is trying to pass a bill that says all Skateboard, In-line skates and "Trickbikes" from leaving the ground. Yup, the wheels can not leave the ground or it's a $25 fine, and $1000 for repeat offenders.

    So they don't want us in town, and don't want us in the woods......nice

    Edit---ok! accepted. I'm amazed you people even remembered. I feel special...gotta go catch the short bus to school. PC OUT
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beau
    ..........I bet you can't dodge bullets on you r bike speedy. It's people like you that get sh_t shut down.
    Never even seen a ranger out there on the game lands in 7 years......only people i see during non-hunting season are people dumping trash off the side of the road.......

    Let's all get mad about a trail in the woods.
    eFF off.....

  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cant Climb
    Never even seen a ranger out there on the game lands in 7 years......only people i see during non-hunting season are people dumping trash off the side of the road.......

    Let's all get mad about a trail in the woods.
    eFF off.....

    w3rd up!

    That brings up a good point... this fine/regulatsions issue is a revenue scheme plain and simple, why don't they fine those white trash idiots who dump their old stoves out in the forest?

    Ohhhh no let's fine those pesky Mtb'rs... they're easy prey

  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beau
    you wasted your time looking for that post...WOW...Live and learn........I was young...and VERY stupid....

    I love how the same people always jump on the Zachdank bandwagon..."ALL ABOARD"

    ...on a added note. The is a city near me that is trying to pass a bill that says all Skateboard, In-line skates and "Trickbikes" from leaving the ground. Yup, the wheels can not leave the ground or it's a $25 fine, and $1000 for repeat offenders.

    So they don't want us in town, and don't want us in the woods......nice

    Edit---ok! accepted. I'm amazed you people even remembered. I feel special...gotta go catch the short bus to school. PC OUT
    actually...it wasn't too long ago and I remembered what a tard you sounded like in that thread bragging about it...took about 5 seconds...(probably less than it took you to find the picture)....and I'm waiting for paint to dry...so ummmm...watching paint dry or amusing myself on here...I don't care what you do...just poking fun at you trying to make fun of someone about smoking crack when you admit to snorting the same thing...
    yeah that's a lame bill...but you choose where you live...that's why I live in Cali...laws are better than the midwest...I lived there and left...and as far as the Zachdank bandwagon...I jumped that shyte about 9 years ago...

    just feeling a little sarcastic today...

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    Naw, Midwest ain't that bad. We don't have emmisions! I'd never live in Cali. That state is slowly turning into a hole. Minnesota isn't anything to brag about either though.

    Can't Climb, if you see these white trash people dumping on your riding lands turn 'em in. I'm no tree huggein' dirt worshiper, but I respect the land. Don't dig where you don't belong.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kidwoo
    What are you saying? That trails are responsible for desert? Or that somehow trails in a desert environment are more harmful? I live right on the cusp of both desert and dense high alpine forest on the Cal/Nevada state line and I still stand by my earlier assertion that targeting trail builders through fines and possible jail time is highly misguided. Seriously, I'm curious about what you mean. Especially since I'm also a hydrologist who works with data from Vegas dealing with flood and sediment discharges.
    I was just answering the question of where I ride. No hidden meaning behind it. Actually, I hate it here. Aside from Bootleg Canyon and Mt. Charleston, there really isnt much but desert, more desert and some desert. I see videos from B.C. and theres days when I wish I could just pack up and move to Canada.

    But since we're on Vegas, let's talk about Bootleg Canyon. I don't know if you're familiar with the place but it's a city park that recieves funding for trail construction and maintenance. Boulder City is one of the few areas in Nevada that doesn't allow gambling. They rely on tourism, part of which is a regular inflow of mountain bikers during the winter as well as the bike demo for interbike. Almost every one of those trails was illegally built. When the county caught the few responsible for the majority of the work, rather than go down without a fight, one of them convinced the county to make it a park which could legitimately generate revenue. They listened and now it does. And this city park is what you can now call a legal trail. Further demonizing the act of pathway building would have kept Boulder City in obscure irellevance as far a bikes are concerned. Something very good came out of those illegally built trails.
    Im very familiar with Bootleg Canyon. Ive seen it, walked a few of the trails but never rode. I know that originally the trails where built by Brent on his own accord. Wether thats illegal or not, I dont know. Was the land occuppied. owned, rented? But read what you just said "rather than go down with a fight, one of them convinced the county to make it a park which could legitimately generate revenue." Thats what I support. See, those riders where smart. None of this "f*ck da p0lice im teh king of rev0lution" crap. Now look, locals, tourists and even pro's ride there. They need hotels, food, etc.. Money, thats all the county wants to see.

    Trailbuilders aren't criminals. You want real preservation? Shoot a developer.
    I never said trailbuilders were. And yes, developers do need to be shot. They are building houses just a few miles out of Red Rock, another great place to ride. Ive complained, even picketted that project almost two years ago and it did nothing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pdirt
    chump.

    You have no idea who you are talking to or what you are saying... you are sadly mistaken in some of your preconcieved notions.
    Your little friend is the chump, not me. Read those immature comments then ask yourself who the real chump is. Im not mistaken at all considering he has proved my assertions from his childish remarks.

    Zach digs on PRIVATE / APPROVED land.. not 'down by the river' on crappy stunts ... his trail the STINC is one of the most well constructed pieces of art South of BC... so get a clue foo!
    You even capitalized my point "APPROVED". If its APPROVED, it isnt ILLEGAL...foo.

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    ... and if we just ...

    Major companies liek Specialized dont give a **** about a couple of teenagers who are not happy with some law or what not. They are soo big, that they dont need that ****.

    Now I give props to companies like Banshee and Animal. They take huge interest in our kind of life styles. Especially Banshee, riders owned... nuff said.


    As for the trails destroying the forest... they are just ****ing retarded. They use it as an excuse. How about all the AV and horses they use to patrol the trails and parks.. they do far more damage than a sunday DH/FR session with a couple of friends.

    Thats one of the reasons government pisses the living **** out of me. They are so close minded on such issues. They rather cut down the forests than let us build some trails in there. And then they wonder why there are so many fat people in US. They better have their kids inside the house playing PS2, watching porn and eating Pizza. Viva La America!!

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    Major companies like Specialized dont give a **** about a couple of teenagers who are not happy with some law or what not. They are soo big, that they dont need that ****.

    Now I give props to companies like Banshee and Animal. They take huge interest in our kind of life styles. Especially Banshee, riders owned... nuff said.


    As for the trails destroying the forest... they are just ****ing retarded. They use it as an excuse. How about all the ATV and horses they use to patrol the trails and parks.. they do far more damage than a sunday DH/FR session with a couple of friends.

    Thats one of the reasons government pisses the living **** out of me. They are so close minded on such issues. They rather cut down the forests, than let us build some trails in there. And then they wonder why there are so many fat people in US. They better have their kids inside the house playing PS2, watching porn and eating Pizza. Viva La America!!

  62. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Locoman
    I get it now! You're 17.

    An age where for some the brain hasn't matured as much as the body... thus lots of posturing.
    no, im just a person that doesnt follow the system, cuz it can be wrong. if your putting up platforms in the middle of national forest, who cares? your not hurting nature, maybe your putting screws into the trees...? im just saying, im not some rich prick or p*ssy that lets laws like these stop them from riding and building. im not the kind of p*ssy that runs, i look at rangers as rent a cops and another human being, so knocking out some guy in the middle of nowhere telling me hes gonna throw away 5 years(in which i could be riding) of my life in prison doesnt bother me.

  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Locoman
    What about them Rangers w/ guns? You'd be having a hard time communicating signals from your brain to your legs, when your brain is splattered on the nearest tree.
    they arent gonna shoot at you for puttin up wood platforms in the woods

  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by phoeneous
    Stuff.
    I think we're all on the same page here. To me, building one's own trails can lead to the establishment of some very good riding areas. For the record, in Brent's own words "they were about to throw my ass in jail if I didn't think of something" Those trails were illegal. Different country but the same thing applies to most of the good riding in North Vancouver. Same deal for the blackrock trails that pdirt mentioned up in Oregon.

    I just don't accept legislation very eagerly that includes augmented policing with it's so called "preservation funding". I just got the impression that you thought this was a good thing straight up.......increased legal charges for trail building and all.

    I read a good bit of the bill and it sounds more like ATV and equestrian lobbies than anything. We'll see what really becomes of it. Truth be told I don't think it will effect the way I approach things very much. I just hope it doesn't become a further excuse to destroy more home made trails where I live. I've already seen enough of them dissappear for BS reasons.

  65. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by kidwoo
    I think we're all on the same page here. To me, building one's own trails can lead to the establishment of some very good riding areas. For the record, in Brent's own words "they were about to throw my ass in jail if I didn't think of something" Those trails were illegal. Different country but the same thing applies to most of the good riding in North Vancouver. Same deal for the blackrock trails that pdirt mentioned up in Oregon.

    I just don't accept legislation very eagerly that includes augmented policing with it's so called "preservation funding". I just got the impression that you thought this was a good thing straight up.......increased legal charges for trail building and all.

    I read a good bit of the bill and it sounds more like ATV and equestrian lobbies than anything. We'll see what really becomes of it. Truth be told I don't think it will effect the way I approach things very much. I just hope it doesn't become a further excuse to destroy more home made trails where I live. I've already seen enough of them dissappear for BS reasons.
    Gentlemen, Please stop and think how many times you here parks and park employees are under funded. They don't have the resources to patrol
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    I dont know guys.

    When land managers have money the seem to invest it in things like handicap access (paving) for cool trails and shiny new "no biking" signs. I hate to say it, but in almost all cases, land managers are the enemy. I come from DC where about 20 years ago when people figured out that you could ride a bike off the road, the hikers in the city got together and started b^&*#ing about erosion, scaring the illegally unleashed dogs etc, etc. They succeded in getting riding banned on all DC city trails. We cant reason with these people. We just have to get bigger than them and eat them. If there are enough of us willing to stand up for access issues, we can ban hikers from our damn trails if they cant share like reasonable people. Until then, running from the police is something we're going to have to get used to. Besides, it's good practice for that race run.

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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by phoeneous
    Just what the internet needs, another e-thug Have fun with your shovels and Ill enjoy my $390 million.

    e-thug, e-hucker, e-shredder, e-pimp. i am the regulator of clowns on the intraweb so step off. i'm sure you'll do alot w/ your 390 bazillion. get back on your hardrock, head to the 7-11,and get me my 40 biatch.

    e thug and major E poster
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    Quote Originally Posted by kidwoo
    I think we're all on the same page here.
    Agreed.

    I just don't accept legislation very eagerly that includes augmented policing with it's so called "preservation funding". I just got the impression that you thought this was a good thing straight up.......increased legal charges for trail building and all.
    Hell no! Increased gas prices pissed me off as it is, I wont let them gestapo my home away from home.

  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by lamoile
    www.hickhucksters.com has a write-up and nasty story about what can happen.
    Its probably for the best that it did happen, those stunts were an accident waiting to happen. i looked at their webpage before that whole mess happened and found myself shaking my head at what poor excuses for stunts they had the idea is to have fun riding over a stunt, not having to worry if its going to collapse at any given second.

    as for this whole subject, i dont really know much, it seems like none of this would be happening if we didnt cut down most of our forrests, leaving us with what little is left.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SHIVER ME TIMBERS
    Gentlemen, Please stop and think how many times you here parks and park employees are under funded. They don't have the resources to patrol
    I agree with you. Putting money into policing is stupid. I'd love to see more true funding of rec areas. I've been babbling about my doubts about this piece of legislation till I'm blue in the fingers here......because I think it's going to be a crap allocation of funds.

  71. #71
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    A lot of good points in this thread. If the goverenment put like 1/1000th of the $340 million (that is supposedly "helping us out" trail wise) every now and then to get a chunk of land where we could have a place to build trails, stunts, etc then they would be helping the cause.

    Instead they are just pissing more of us off, so what do we do? We go out and build more trails. That little plan didn't work out too well. And I agree, there is no way in hell a couple of mt bikers building trails will do even minor damage to the forest. I bet you average beaver tears up a lot more land in a forest in their lifetime then a couple of kids with shovels will.

    Just figured I'd throw this in..I live in Arizona (tons of desert) and I work at my old next door neighbors softball complex (we were good friends with them) and he has a LOT of land that he doesn't know what to do with. I am going to see if he would let us build some jumps, etc out there and the organize it a bit and charge kids a few bucks to get in. All we'd need is a bobcat to start out with and then running water (which wouldn't be a problem). All the skateparks out here screw bikers out the ass, skaters get 90% of the time a skatepark is open to ride when bikers get screwed with 2 hour sessions 3 times a week at like 10pm-12am or 7-9am. So, if I can get the word out and have some kids come out and dig then we could easily have a nice place to ride legally. I just need to know how much the insurance on that would cost, chances are we'd make them sign their life away in waiver
    I'm not new to this, I'm true to this

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    Illegal Trail Building

    and Why It Is Wrong
    In January of 2003, myself (Brad Walton) and Matt Norris decided that we needed a new trail because the ones that we ride every day and take for granted were not good enough. As you all know, freeriding has evolved the sport of mountain biking to include more than just a singletrack trail in the woods. Now the heart of mountain biking revolves around just being out there with your friends having fun on whatever the terrain. The trails that we usually ride in the Wilson's Creek area of the Pisgah National Forest are awesome, but despite having nearly 100 miles of trails to ride, we were in search of something new, more challenging, and more fun. We figured that if all the new videos and magazines were talking about these awesome trails popping up everywhere that include built stunts made of wood and big jumps and tree rides, that it would be a great idea to take that to our favorite riding spot. With the gaining popularity of this website (much before our trail building prosecution), we had a vision that maybe one day all the riders from NC that get on this website, that have found us and ride with us because of what has become of Hick Park, that maybe we could push rider interest deeper into the woods, where the terrain is steeper, longer, bigger. This would push the limits of our current trails.

    I guess we got the idea from our trip to British Columbia, where mountain biking is the most popular thing to do. It seemed that everyone rode. Doctors, grandpaws, kids under 10, moms, the hot older sister, it didn't matter who you are, there is a common bond in the riding community. The trails on the North Shore push the limits of every rider in the world, but there are all levels of trails, from very easy 4 foot wide hardpack gravel paths to the heights of the Ridiculator, a 200 foot long wooden structure 6 inches wide 20 feet above the forest floor. These trails are not just on the North Shore either. All across the province of BC, you can find these types of trails. The mountain bikers build the trails, ride them, and maintain them. BC is now the most popular destination world wide for mountain biking, and several communities where no economy existed before have turned into BC's most popular tourist destinations, with their greatest economic dependency being a mountain bike. Every mountain bike video, magazine, and website in the world in the past year has references to mountain biking in British Columbia. This is what motivated us, the possibility for change, the popularity of the sport, the media telling us that people love it, that it is fun, that it is good. We obviously didn't consider to look far enough into the legallity of these trails.

    We decided to construct a new trail which would include various aspects of the best mountain bike trails we have ever ridden. We wanted it singletrack, we wanted it steep, fast, and technical, we wanted big jumps, huge berms, and ladder drops, with lots of rocks, and whatever the terrain would offer us. We wanted fellow riders to have a chance to use that new technology bikes are equipped with these days, to really have fun trying new things, the thrill of accomplishment in doing something that you were afraid of.

    We knew we wanted it in Wilson's Creek, but were unsure about cutting trees, digging roots, everything that goes into building a trail where there isn't one. One day, I was riding up Mortimer Piedmont road to the Sinkhole trail and saw a little stint off to the side of the road where a truck had be driving up into a dip in the mountain. I figured I would check it out to see where it went. It was really steep, so I ditched my bike and took off on foot up a doubletrack side-hill cut. It didn't take long for me to realize that the trail I was on was cut by the US Forest Service to extinguish a fire. Two years ago, a motorist attempted to make a 3-point turn on a one lane forest road. A tire went off the road and a rock sparked the gas tank, resulting in a huge forest fire that took over a week to extinguish. I don't know how much land it was, but it encompasses all of lower Chestnut Mountain. The entire mountain side I was walking on was scorched, ashy and black. All the trees under a 6-inch diameter were dead. All the rhododendron was blackened and dead, there was no underbrush at all. The soil was black and rocky. The profile of the ridge was fantastic for a trail, and the technical features included big fallen trees to build stunts with, lots of open rock faces, good dense soil, and I knew this was it. I hiked to the top, and found every feature imaginable for riding a bike on. I told Matt about it, and we went to look at it, where we decided that was the place.

    Since the trail users of Wilson's Creek do all the trail maintenance, we figured it was okay to go ahead and build this trail. Unfortunately for us, a permit is required for any trail modifications. We told some people about it, and Brian Tunstill and Charles Moore decided to help us. The work went very fast, since there was already a trail there, and there was no brush to clear. We didn't have to cut down any trees, and the dirt was very easy to move. After a few weeks, the trail was mid-Picasso. A real masterpiece much surpassing my wildest dreams of what I thought it would be like. Somewhere along the line, the word Nam turned up, short for Vietnam, which was fitting for such a location: it was charred black, like total devastation, and it was unknown territory, big and bad, scary. Nam became the name of the trail. Big 25-foot gap jumps, log rides, 5-foot high 50-foot long berms, ladder drops, steep rock faces, the works. Most of the trail flowed straight down the mountain, following the existing fire cut, we just added more into it and ventured off trail to include more technical features. It was as bad as it gets.

    Nowhere in the building of the trail did we consider that we were wrongful in building it. I guess it was a combination of the rights of other users like horseback riders and hunters that made us think it was okay. Regardless of what we thought and what our reasons of defense are, we were wrong. Our trail was located in National Forest property. We didn't ask the US Forest Service if we could do it. Our trail was also unfit for the mountain, meaning that we were planning on riding straight down the fall line, which would eventually erode the mountain into a trench. Even if we were to upkeep it like we planned, the mountain which I thought was charred and useless, turns out to be the most ecologically sensitve area in Wilson's Creek. Our methods of trail building were not professional, and although we thought we were really good at it and that what we did was beautiful, we were actually further destroying the ecology of Chestnut Mountain.

    On February 28, 2003, we were approached by USFS rangers at gunpoint while working on Nam, and we were charged with "Constructing and maintaining a trail on USFS property without a permit" and "Cutting and damaging timber, trees, and forest resources without a permit." Our equipment was seized, and we were in awe at what had just happened. Apparently, the rangers had known about it for awhile, and were just waiting for the right time to catch us in the act. Pictures of our work had been posted on this website, as we were very proud of what we had done, didn't think of it as being wrong, and couldn't wait for all of our fellow riders to enjoy it. After a lengthy period of awaiting trial, we received a date for US District Court for prosecution.

    The period during which we were awaiting trial, I just knew that the charges would be dropped since we didn't know any better. Once again, we were wrong, and are being reprimanded for our actions. We are now banned from the National Forest for an indefinite period, we have been fined, we must complete a certain amount of supervised trail work and attend a trail building seminar to understand how innapropiate and damaging our methods were, and we are on probation. We were wrong to go about building a trail on property other than our own, in our own interest with complete disregard for any rules or regulations, federal or municipal. We did not even ask permission, and are fortunate that one day we will be able to return to the forest we love so much. Let this stand as fair warning to anyone else out there who wishes to build a renegade trail, DON'T DO IT!!! If the forest service allowed just anyone to go out and build on government land without permission, there would not be any land left. The National Forest is a sanctuary for wildlife and a gift for us city-dwellers who wish to relieve our stresses by escaping everyday ordeals. We have gained much appreciation for land, both private and public, through this lesson. We now know that what we did was wrong, and now you know it as well.



    For anyone who chooses not to listen to our hard lesson, here's what can happen:



    We are extremely fortunate to have received a pretrial diversion, which allows us to make retribution to the US Forest Service and alleviate any further prosecution. This only happened because we were the first to commit this crime, and the government felt that we can make this a positive learning experience for us and for other public land users. In the future, now that this is a known ordeal, offenders caught building illegal trails and doing un-permitted trail maintenance may receive the prosecution we were threatened with, which includes but is not limitted to:



    for each offense, 6 months imprisonment, $5000 fine, banishment from all National Forest property for 2-7 years. These are estimates only, it can be much worse. In Marin County, California, 3 men were sentenced to a year in prison and $50,000 in fines. If you're not sure, DON'T DO IT!!!
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  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by irieness
    oooooh....you just made it on my ignore list...

    but Chris is such a sex GOD...
    gotta say tho...Tom Morello is one of the greatest guitarists EVER....


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  74. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pat T.?
    There is a bill in the House of Representatives that Representative Tom Tancredo (R-CO) recently introduced H.R. 975, the TRAIL Act of 2005. It will mostly go for $380 million for trail funding nation wide, but here's the kicker. If you get caught building or acting inappropriately on public land you will get the fine and or jail time, plus have to pay all of the court costs. What they don't say in the bill is what the fines will be, but it does say they are misdemeanors class a or b. Here's the text of the bill, but I am sure it will change before becoming permanent. http://www.arra-access.com/arra/hr_975.html There are several groups pushing this through due to the $380 million. I'm not saying don't build, but I wouldn't want to get caught doing it because now you will have the National Park Service, the Fish and Wildlife Service, the Bureau of Land Management and the Forest Service all able to issue fines. Figures they would run this through as one bill.
    they have to catch you to fine you.... even if they have guns drawn, they cant shoot you for resisting arrest.
    "What would happen to the Weather Channel's ratings if people werent scared anymore?"

  75. #75
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    nah... he is just going to say that you were charging at him with a shovel, then you went on and on struggling, all of the sudden he was behind/on top of you.... blah, balh, blah.... he shot you.

    This si how they will make it look on public TV.

    Another officer has been attacked by a wild mountain biker today in Forest Heights Park. "It was a really nice day" office Smith said in our quick interview, "until I ran into one of those crazy montain bikers, he had a shover too. He was sweating and had foam coming out of his mouth, I am sure that he just murdered someone else and buried him. I said to put the shovel down, but he..... he...... *breaks into tears* .... Im sorry!"

    Officer Smith could not comment any further. He was taken to the local hospital for blood test, since he came in contact with one of those.... mountain bikers! This officer is a national hero!

    Any minute now....

  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morda
    nah... he is just going to say that you were charging at him with a shovel, then you went on and on struggling, all of the sudden he was behind/on top of you.... blah, balh, blah.... he shot you.

    This si how they will make it look on public TV.

    Another officer has been attacked by a wild mountain biker today in Forest Heights Park. "It was a really nice day" office Smith said in our quick interview, "until I ran into one of those crazy montain bikers, he had a shover too. He was sweating and had foam coming out of his mouth, I am sure that he just murdered someone else and buried him. I said to put the shovel down, but he..... he...... *breaks into tears* .... Im sorry!"

    Officer Smith could not comment any further. He was taken to the local hospital for blood test, since he came in contact with one of those.... mountain bikers! This officer is a national hero!

    Any minute now....

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  77. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by .WestCoastHucker.
    well,


    no matter how hard you try, you can't stop us now.....

    i have to write a report on front country trail conflict in santa barbara so this helps a lot because one of the issues is cutting through the switch backs.
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  78. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morda
    nah... he is just going to say that you were charging at him with a shovel, then you went on and on struggling, all of the sudden he was behind/on top of you.... blah, balh, blah.... he shot you.

    This si how they will make it look on public TV.
    not if you're smart and turn and book the other way. Im not sure who would charge a cop, but seriously.... a bullet hole through the back, sure wont support that story.
    "What would happen to the Weather Channel's ratings if people werent scared anymore?"

  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by scabrider
    i have to write a report on front country trail conflict in santa barbara so this helps a lot because one of the issues is cutting through the switch backs.
    you should post it when you are done
    the trick is ENJOYING YOUR LIFE EACH DAY, don't waste them away wishing for better days

  80. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shibby
    And the stupidest post of the day award goes to......Bentimby (cue applause)
    what? rangers dont scare me, theyre rent-a-cops

  81. #81
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    E-toughguy, eh? I'd bet that if a ranger saw you building, you'd just wet your pants and curl up on the ground crying.

    You know, beating law-enforcement officials unconscious with a shovel may have more far-reaching reprocussions than your pre-pubescent mind can comprehend.

  82. #82
    Who are the brain police?
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    No, that's a given. Its the "...theyre getting a shovel to the head..." that will force them to put a round in you.
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  83. #83
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    [QUOTE=phoeneous
    Im very familiar with Bootleg Canyon. Ive seen it, walked a few of the trails but never rode. [/QUOTE]



    so are you just a poser rider...cuz in your profile it says Bootleg Canyon is your favorite trail but here you just said you've never ridden it???

  84. #84
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    Whatever buddy, stop living in the past

  85. #85
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    if you build trails, eventually one will become illegal or otherwise disliked by others.

    you might even build one INTENTIONALLY under illegal or improper pretenses.

    but you'd be a danged fool to brag about it, to tell others about it, and most especially, to do it in a way that makes it easy to be caught.

    and what's worst of all is that if you fit the above profile, you are ruining it for everyone else. chew on that, "renegade" boys. morons. fools.

  86. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by irieness
    Quote Originally Posted by phoeneous
    Im very familiar with Bootleg Canyon. Ive seen it, walked a few of the trails but never rode.


    so are you just a poser rider...cuz in your profile it says Bootleg Canyon is your favorite trail but here you just said you've never ridden it???
    ROFL, that's damn funny!!!!! lol

  87. #87
    I do small drops.
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    Hey Penis, I mean, um, Phoeneous, dude, don't give us ****. The only people out there who hurt the trails less than bikers are hikers, and that's a given. If we use trails properly, they'll last forever, and seriously, what the hell are you gonna do with a big ass plot of land? Where I live, there's so incredibly much wildlife, but also trails everywhere. Trails don't really interfere, as long as they're not everywhere. And I have done some legit trail building with my local Forest Service, and you know what, trails are great! They're fun! And the animals are still there, too!

    You can take that juris-my-dicktion crap and cram it up your ass!
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