Shimano Saint vs. 09 Formula Mega- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    Shimano Saint vs. 09 Formula Mega

    I am trying to decide between these two brakes as my Codes have crapped out on me after 4+ years of loyal if not troubled service. I would love any input you all can offer about why one or the other is better. The Saints seem more stout and perhaps less finicky but the Megas look to be lighter and easier to modulate. What do you all think?

  2. #2
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    I have had both and I prefer the Saints. I find them to be superior in almost every aspect. Not by much but there is a difference.
    Last edited by GearTech; 09-07-2010 at 04:09 PM.

  3. #3
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    Can you say what makes you prefer the Saints?

  4. #4
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    I moved from codes to saints and I can tell you that working with mineral oil over dot fluid is a huge plus.

  5. #5
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    Can't you just rebuild your codes?

    Why not consider the Hayes Primes as well?
    Die to ride, ride to die

  6. #6
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    went from avids (J5's, J7's, elixers, codes, elixer levers to code calipers) avids are great brakes, saints are a step above. + mineral oil.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by hrsjqb1
    Can you say what makes you prefer the Saints?
    Mineral Oil
    Lever Feel
    Less effort needed to reach "lock 'em up" power but the same if not better modualtion.
    Less arm pump because of the above
    Easier to bleed

    Pretty much every aspect is slightly superior.

  8. #8
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    MBUK did a computer analysis of both of them, very impressive.
    Scrub that I thought you said the One, not the mega.

    The compression curve on the One is flatter giving more modulation that the saint.
    The One has more power at 90% of the compression with the saint overtaking at full lock.
    Saint is cheaper.
    The One is very easy to bleed and set up, but requires a slightly different technique so people get confused.
    One is WAY lighter.
    The price difference is significant.

    Given the choice of Saint or Mega the choice is easy, Saint.
    If you have money to burn the one is better, but not twice as good and is twice as expensive.
    Why would I care about 150g of bike weight, I just ate 400g of cookies while reading this?

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    I love those saying Mineral OIl is a plus. Hahah, hysterical.

    And the Saint is not as easy to bleed? You simply pump the lever and bleed out the contents and refill at the reservoir.

    Anyhow, I'd do Saint or M4.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by junktrunk
    I love those saying Mineral OIl is a plus. Hahah, hysterical.

    And the Saint is not as easy to bleed? You simply pump the lever and bleed out the contents and refill at the reservoir.

    Anyhow, I'd do Saint or M4.
    I don't understand how mineral oil is not a plus...

  11. #11
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    Explain how it's a plus.

  12. #12
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    Look up the MSDS on DOT 4...

    Mineral Oil is basically Baby Oil...

    Safer, less toxic and doesn't absorb water...

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by GearTech
    Look up the MSDS on DOT 4...

    Mineral Oil is basically Baby Oil...

    Safer, less toxic and doesn't absorb water...

    good
    point, it is so amazing, that is why all other sports have adopted it. =-)
    Why would I care about 150g of bike weight, I just ate 400g of cookies while reading this?

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by GearTech
    Look up the MSDS on DOT 4...

    Mineral Oil is basically Baby Oil...

    Safer, less toxic and doesn't absorb water...
    This is why mtbers are sissies. If it's so safe, I DARE you to get the list of additional ingredients in it and either drink it, or dump it down the drain and youtube it. You will see how "safe" it's considered. I love how mtbers are all in search of overstating themselves and "Representin'" how hardcore they are, but when it comes to a fluid that is designed for an application, optimized for it, and ONLY on mtbr does it have an overstated rep for toxicity, they are like little children and claim it's a BIG PLUS, with absolutely nothing to back it up.

    WHen told to drink the mineral oil because they think it's so safe, we never hear from them again.

  15. #15
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    mineral oil might be relativly safe, but that is not all that is in the bottle.

    Anyone heard of thalidomide?
    Thalidomide is perfectly safe and has been tested to be so, shame about one of the other contaminants. If the main ingredient in a bottle is safe it doesn't automatically make everything else fine
    Why would I care about 150g of bike weight, I just ate 400g of cookies while reading this?

  16. #16
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    Holy crap! Of course I wouldn't drink it! I wouldn't drink suntan oil. I wouldn't consume my toothpaste either but I still brush my teeth with it twice a day.

    I want to insult you guys but you know what? If we were out riding together we'd probably be good friends. That is unless you talk about this kind of stuff while riding...

    Both brakes will stop you just fine. I prefer the Saints because MBUK had a chart and they made a prettier and curvier line on that chart.

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    We'd be friends has nothing to do with anything here. It's being used as a tactic to back down gracefully in your eyes. It's simply put that the only field where brake fluid is used where people are such ninnies, is mountain biking. You guys try to be hardasses on the trails, but then are afraid of DOT brake fluid? Give me a ****ing break.

  18. #18
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    I don't need to back down and I don't need to prove anything to anyone on here in order to lead a fulfilled existence. I understand how some people would though. I visit forums for fun and to get excited about the sport not to feel better about myself.

    I don't try to be a hardass on the trails, I ride for fun.

    Brake fluid is just fine, I put it in my car and three out of four of my bikes use it. I prefer working with the mineral oil, just my preference.

    The Saints are all-around better brakes than the Mega and The One. That's my opinion from personal experience through ownership and use. Your opinion may differ and you're entitled to have that opinion.

  19. #19
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    The saints may be better, but it's not due to the mineral oil.

    Why don't you petition auto and motorcycle manufacturers to move over to mineral? Not to mention aerospace...

  20. #20
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    You seem to be much more passionate about the subject and obviously have more time to dedicate to the movement. Perhaps you should petition the bicycle industry to ban the use of mineral oil.

    I like mineral oil more than I like DOT 4. I like bacon on pizza more than I like mushrooms on pizza but I'm still going to eat the mushroom pizza if it's offered.

    How is mineral oil inferior to DOT 4 when used in braking systems specifically designed for those individual types of fluids?

  21. #21
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    Mineral oil has a lower temperature threshold than DOT. That's simply it. Mineral oil, such as Pentosin is designed to be pumped in hydraulic systems. Never was it intended for braking systems.

    I do not have to petition the bike industry to use mineral.

  22. #22
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    I said, "ban the use of mineral oil."

    So brake fade would be of concern then. I wonder why I have never experienced that in my Saints...

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    Maggies fade. I've experienced it myself, even with the Louise FR. Not with the Gustav, however.

    Additionally, DOT is also able to flow properly in more conditions that mineral can.

    You also realized that I recommended the Saints over the DOT-Formula, right?

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by junktrunk
    Maggies fade. I've experienced it myself, even with the Louise FR. Not with the Gustav, however.

    Additionally, DOT is also able to flow properly in more conditions that mineral can.

    You also realized that I recommended the Saints over the DOT-Formula, right?
    Yep.

    So what we have in the end is that we agree that the Saints are better and they use mineral oil which you consider inferior to DOT 4 on paper. Additionally, I like working with Mineral Oil more than I like working with DOT 4 which is why I consider it to be a plus when shopping for brakes and why I recommend it to those that ask. You are angry because people put Mineral Oil on a pedestal in the MTB community when it's benefits, if any are unsubstantiated. Cool.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by junktrunk
    This is why mtbers are sissies. If it's so safe, I DARE you to get the list of additional ingredients in it and either drink it, or dump it down the drain and youtube it. You will see how "safe" it's considered. I love how mtbers are all in search of overstating themselves and "Representin'" how hardcore they are, but when it comes to a fluid that is designed for an application, optimized for it, and ONLY on mtbr does it have an overstated rep for toxicity, they are like little children and claim it's a BIG PLUS, with absolutely nothing to back it up.

    WHen told to drink the mineral oil because they think it's so safe, we never hear from them again.
    With absolutely nothing to back it up? How about working on bikes, cars, and motorcycles for years...simply put, sure dot fluid can withstand higher temperatures which is why mineral oil is not used for brakes in other industries, but bike brakes do not generate anywhere near the heat of say a car. But what do I know, I'm just a sissy ninny mtber...

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by daway
    With absolutely nothing to back it up? How about working on bikes, cars, and motorcycles for years...simply put, sure dot fluid can withstand higher temperatures which is why mineral oil is not used for brakes in other industries, but bike brakes do not generate anywhere near the heat of say a car. But what do I know, I'm just a sissy ninny mtber...
    Exactly - motor sports deal with a helluva lot more heat than bikes so mineral oil is not an option for those applications. The whole DOT fluid toxicity thing is a joke from what jt is trying to imply . It's NOT about the oral toxicity, it's about the handling aspects for shadetree mechanics. Spill DOT fluid on your bars or frame and the paint comes off. Worse yet, a hose comes off and sprays DOT fluid in your face/eyes as you're trying to transfer out the old fluid with syringe bleeders. THAT is why the bike industry prefers mineral oil - because home mechanics aren't that careful, I can assure you!

    Have FUN!

    G MAN
    "There's two shuttles, one to the top and one to the hospital" I LOVE this place!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gman086
    Exactly - motor sports deal with a helluva lot more heat than bikes so mineral oil is not an option for those applications. The whole DOT fluid toxicity thing is a joke from what jt is trying to imply . It's NOT about the oral toxicity, it's about the handling aspects for shadetree mechanics. Spill DOT fluid on your bars or frame and the paint comes off. Worse yet, a hose comes off and sprays DOT fluid in your face/eyes as you're trying to transfer out the old fluid with syringe bleeders. THAT is why the bike industry prefers mineral oil - because home mechanics aren't that careful, I can assure you!

    Have FUN!

    G MAN
    Have you ever spilled DOT? Do you know how long it takes to damage paint? LIkely not, which is why you're pulling that card. Spill it, then wash it off. As far as spraying in the eyes, that's rich. I've gotten DOT in my eyes, and while I don't recommend it, I still have my vision. I've been covered in dot while working on projects for days, and no ill effects, outside of dry skin. I have never exclusively spoken about oral toxicity. I spoke mostly of topical toxicity. There is none.

    "Syringe bleeders", which shows how uninitiated you are. Brakes, such as Hope, do not require syringes.

    The bike industry DOES NOT prefer mineral. The vast majority sold across the world are equipped with DOT brakes, such as Avid and Formula. Even Shimano has not been able to dent that, even in Magura's home country, they have not dented the sales of Avid and Formula, oem and aftermarket. Add Hope to the latter.

  28. #28
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    LOL, NO brake system requires syringe bleeders but some bleeder kits have them including Formulas, Avids, Maguras and Big S so step off jt. And anyone could make a good arguement that Shimano IS the bike industry, LOL as they probably sell as many brakes as the rest of the ones you listed combined.

    Have FUN!

    G MAN

    PS - For the record, I prefer the modulation of the Formulas over the raw power of the Saints. Both are my top 2 choices tho.
    "There's two shuttles, one to the top and one to the hospital" I LOVE this place!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gman086
    LOL, NO brake system requires syringe bleeders but some bleeder kits have them including Formulas, Avids, Maguras and Big S so step off jt. And anyone could make a good arguement that Shimano IS the bike industry, LOL as they probably sell as many brakes as the rest of the ones you listed combined.

    Have FUN!

    G MAN

    PS - For the record, I prefer the modulation of the Formulas over the raw power of the Saints. Both are my top 2 choices tho.
    Wait, you think Avid and Formula don't need the syringes to bleed?

  30. #30
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    man junktrunk, you are straight up antagonistic. I hardly step in (as evidenced by my post count) but seriously, take a deep breath and realize this is a friendly place to offer advice, not an online boxing ring.

    That aside, I love my saints coming from avid codes. They are darn powerful and you need time to get used to them for sure. And yes, the mineral oil is a plus... I've bled my avids and have had DOT4 and 5.1 etch places I didn't see it drop. Its just annoying to have around.

    A tip for the saints: go 180 rear. The balance is really nice.

    Unlike the DOT fluid in the codes, the Mineral oil does NOT absorb water. I had to rebleed the codes every 6 months.... saints are pretty much maintinence free.

  31. #31
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    Wow!

    I had no idea I would spark such controversy. It is an interesting discussion though, the whole Mineral Oil v. DOT thing. I came to the conclusion, with the help of the local shop guys who run pretty much nothing but Formulas and Saints, that the Megas would be most appropriate. The bike I am putting these on is my one bike to rule them all. I use it for everything so I will continue to deal with the DOT for time being and enjoy the lighter weight and hopefully ample power of the Formulas. I am curious about the different set up method mentioned though. Since I will be setting these up soon any advice is welcome. Thanks for the input thus far.

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    What happened is Junktrunk found him a hardcore represent'in mountain biker who gave it to him up the a$$ using mineral oil for lubrication.

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    Quote Originally Posted by baxterbike
    man junktrunk, you are straight up antagonistic. I hardly step in (as evidenced by my post count) but seriously, take a deep breath and realize this is a friendly place to offer advice, not an online boxing ring.

    That aside, I love my saints coming from avid codes. They are darn powerful and you need time to get used to them for sure. And yes, the mineral oil is a plus... I've bled my avids and have had DOT4 and 5.1 etch places I didn't see it drop. Its just annoying to have around.

    A tip for the saints: go 180 rear. The balance is really nice.

    Unlike the DOT fluid in the codes, the Mineral oil does NOT absorb water. I had to rebleed the codes every 6 months.... saints are pretty much maintinence free.
    6 months is overkill, unless you have other problems with your codes to begin with.

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