NEW Brake Therapy/Therapy Components wesite is UP, comments please- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    NEW Brake Therapy/Therapy Components wesite is UP, comments please

    Hi, Brian from Therapy Components here. The long awaited (by me anyway) website is online, and nearly complete. www.therapycomponents.com


    I know there's still a few bugs to be worked out, and some pages aren't finished the way I'd like them, but I thought I'd get it up there anyway.

    Much more info, more model info, more products, more tech info, more, more more...

    Some of the pictures don't look as good as I'd like, kindoff the comprimise between quality and download time. It's still flash, but much less than the previous site, and much quicker to load.

    At the moment, the FAQ/how it works part is from the old site, but I will have that totally redone, including force diagrams showing how and why a floating brake works. Includied in this section will be a controversial (I'm sure) debunking of EVERYONE who claims any arrangement of magical links attaching the swingarm to the frame can remove braking forces without a floating brake. This includes fsr/horst and everyone else, no exceptions.

    It will be presented in a manner that every engineer can verify, and that non-engineers can understand as well.

    Anyway, let me know what you think.

    Brian, [email protected]

  2. #2
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    except for the fact that they do operate like (and better) than your little aluminum bar.......... fsr rocks.

  3. #3
    rockin the mid-west
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    I like it. Plus I did not know that you guys made a floting brake for the Big Hit. Whats the msrp on it?
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by madtownfreerider
    I like it. Plus I did not know that you guys made a floting brake for the Big Hit. Whats the msrp on it?
    Thanks for the input.

    All our floaters are US$295.00, and they all come with a full, money back, satisfaction guarantee that you will LOVE it.

  5. #5
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    Looks good, Server seems slow though.

    Link to NSMB Bullit floating brake review is broken.
    Link to MTBR V10 floating brake review is broken.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by madtownfreerider
    I like it. Plus I did not know that you guys made a floting brake for the Big Hit. Whats the msrp on it?
    That's because the largest portion of Brake Therapys' business "probably" (read speculation) comes from "faux-bar" (kona type designs) and single pivot sales. FSR bikes are known for and (according to Specialized marketing) designed to exhibit the least ammount of braking issues than other designs and thus the floater isn't widely used on them.

    Honestly, I've never felt any sort of brake jack on my FSR Big Hit like I have on 7-8 travel Single Pivot bikes. But as Shock will tell you, other FSR riders have noticed a difference using floaters. I guess it all comes down to personal preference. If you feel you Big Hit is not braking sufficiently then you may want to give the floater a try, with a money back guarantee you can't lose.

  7. #7
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    Purdy

    cool site upgrades. Glad to see you finally got some of the other product up. The Sinner in particular caught my attention. Couple of question regarding it...

    Does it work on bolt on hubs, like the Gusset Jury hub(pic)? It has a 12mm solid cromo axle with 10mm flats.

    How much and can they be ordered direct?

    Good job. Thanks.

    Gusset Jury:

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by shock
    Thanks for the input.

    All our floaters are US$295.00, and they all come with a full, money back, satisfaction guarantee that you will LOVE it.
    Good to see the new site...I've gotta order me one of them floaters for my giant dh soon.

  9. #9
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    yeah, absolutely. i WILL absolutely pick one of those up. my derailleur hanger is never straight. just shifting pulls it outta whack. where can buy one and how much?

  10. #10
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    Quick question. Are all of your floater geometries "100 percent neutral"? If not, it seems kinda misleading to claim that braking forces are "completely removed" from the suspension. I'm not trying to downplay the effectiveness of your product, just need clarification.
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by shock
    Hi, Brian from Therapy Components here. The long awaited (by me anyway) website is online, and nearly complete. www.therapycomponents.com


    I know there's still a few bugs to be worked out, and some pages aren't finished the way I'd like them, but I thought I'd get it up there anyway.

    Much more info, more model info, more products, more tech info, more, more more...

    Some of the pictures don't look as good as I'd like, kindoff the comprimise between quality and download time. It's still flash, but much less than the previous site, and much quicker to load.

    At the moment, the FAQ/how it works part is from the old site, but I will have that totally redone, including force diagrams showing how and why a floating brake works. Includied in this section will be a controversial (I'm sure) debunking of EVERYONE who claims any arrangement of magical links attaching the swingarm to the frame can remove braking forces without a floating brake. This includes fsr/horst and everyone else, no exceptions.

    It will be presented in a manner that every engineer can verify, and that non-engineers can understand as well.

    Anyway, let me know what you think.

    Brian, [email protected]

    why don't you get a banner and advertise too
    the trick is ENJOYING YOUR LIFE EACH DAY, don't waste them away wishing for better days

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by CraigH
    Looks good, Server seems slow though.

    Link to NSMB Bullit floating brake review is broken.
    Link to MTBR V10 floating brake review is broken.
    Thanks Craig, as soon as I figure out the broken links, I'll add the one to your review as well.

    I assume that thing is still rockin on your bike?

    Brian

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    Quote Originally Posted by red5
    cool site upgrades. Glad to see you finally got some of the other product up. The Sinner in particular caught my attention. Couple of question regarding it...

    Does it work on bolt on hubs, like the Gusset Jury hub(pic)? It has a 12mm solid cromo axle with 10mm flats.

    How much and can they be ordered direct?

    Good job. Thanks.

    Gusset Jury:
    Hi Red,

    Thanks for the comments. The sinner will work with that hub, but I have a question about it. Does that axle neck down to 10mm thru the dropouts, and then back up to 12 mm for the bolts?

    Retail price is $35, and you can buy one with a visa or mc. 765 528-2138

    Brian

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    Quote Originally Posted by SocalSuperhero
    Good to see the new site...I've gotta order me one of them floaters for my giant dh soon.
    Yeah, I know the sites been waaaay overdue. I also know it's not perfect, but we'll refine it from hear.

    As I said before, You WILL love the floater....

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ohio_Huck
    yeah, absolutely. i WILL absolutely pick one of those up. my derailleur hanger is never straight. just shifting pulls it outta whack. where can buy one and how much?
    It does wonders for flexy hangers. Not only will your bike shift better, but you won't have to adjust the deraileeur as often. $35.00, call us at 765 528-2138

    Brian

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    No offense but that web site is PITA to navigate and the constantly cycling images really make it hard to understand what you are trying to show. Also what is with bike companies and flash? They all do it and it hurts to navigate, plus as you pointed out yourself image quality suffers or load times suck.

    I feel like a prick now but really a simple static html site with logically grouped icons (thumbnails are your friend) to navigate and a static width of ~800 px would help greatly.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by WheelieMan
    Quick question. Are all of your floater geometries "100 percent neutral"? If not, it seems kinda misleading to claim that braking forces are "completely removed" from the suspension. I'm not trying to downplay the effectiveness of your product, just need clarification.
    You are correct, they are not all 100% neutral (some are), but most are within 5%, which is a level that even the best riders in the world are unable to tell the difference.

    In a few applications (Fabien Barels Kona) they are decidedly not neutral, as he is using it to make the rear squat, and setup his entire bike differently around that theory. He seems to be the only one (thus far) that likes it that way however.

    So technically, the floater can and will remove all of the braking force from the suspension, but also can be used to input some of that force back into the frame, which of course affects the suspension. We recommend, and try to achieve, a neutral or near neutral effect for most riders and bikes.

    Brian

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by shock
    Hi Red,

    Thanks for the comments. The sinner will work with that hub, but I have a question about it. Does that axle neck down to 10mm thru the dropouts, and then back up to 12 mm for the bolts?

    Retail price is $35, and you can buy one with a visa or mc. 765 528-2138

    Brian
    Brian,

    Yeah how you described it is exactly how it works, the dropouts only are 10mm, the remainder of the hub is 12mm. Cool you'll be getting a call soon. What specifically should I ask for, a 12mm Sinner? Thanks.

    David

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by SHIVER ME TIMBERS
    why don't you get a banner and advertise too
    I guess I should "whore out" and advertise, but I actually hate those things when I go to other sites, and I'm sure it wouldn't help download speed any. I guess I figure I'm just trying to advertise for Therapy, and I'd rather focus on that. I do want to put a link page up, but it's pretty low on the priority list.

    Brian

  20. #20
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    Yup, still running the floater on the Bullit, still works great!

    Just got the bike working again after replacing the cranks & bearings under warranty. I'm still interested in trying your new cranks.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~

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  21. #21
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    You need a ICT licence!

    Quote Originally Posted by shock
    Hi, Brian from Therapy Components here. The long awaited (by me anyway) website is online, and nearly complete. www.therapycomponents.com


    I know there's still a few bugs to be worked out, and some pages aren't finished the way I'd like them, but I thought I'd get it up there anyway.

    Much more info, more model info, more products, more tech info, more, more more...

    Some of the pictures don't look as good as I'd like, kindoff the comprimise between quality and download time. It's still flash, but much less than the previous site, and much quicker to load.

    At the moment, the FAQ/how it works part is from the old site, but I will have that totally redone, including force diagrams showing how and why a floating brake works. Includied in this section will be a controversial (I'm sure) debunking of EVERYONE who claims any arrangement of magical links attaching the swingarm to the frame can remove braking forces without a floating brake. This includes fsr/horst and everyone else, no exceptions.

    It will be presented in a manner that every engineer can verify, and that non-engineers can understand as well.

    Anyway, let me know what you think.

    Brian, [email protected]
    The website is very slow and awkward to use. That may not help sales, it hints that the product is likewise.

    BTW, there is nothing 100% efficient or isolated or decoupled about floating brakes. There may be fleeting moments when the tensions converge for a moment of harmonious or unused reactivty (while doing a stoppie maybe, but unlikely ant any other point of use).

    Adjustable floaters adds another tuning option for handling and braking traction.

    The floating brake design when configured to be nearly parallel linked with a lower monopivot suspension to the frame is mechanically and effectively ICT compliant for braking effect (and pedaling effect). It would be infringing upon the Ellsworth patented design. ICT claims of "efficiency" in the patent are a farce but may impress non-engineers, but it did get a patent or two for the measured link configuration specification.

    If I had a long travel high monopivot mounted rear brake, I'd get one. Other designs may not benefit as noticeably compared to the added weight of the unit and potential for mistaken more complicated tuning possible.

    The ride is the true test.

    - ray
    Last edited by derby; 06-21-2005 at 02:28 PM.

  22. #22
    rockin the mid-west
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    shock. Do you have a pic of a floter on a bighit. i would buy one its just that i need to see what it looks like before i buy. plus what would be the pro's and con's of puting a floter on an fsr bike?
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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by derby

    The floating brake design when configured to be nearly parallel linked with a lower monopivot suspension to the frame is mechanically and effectively ICT compliant for braking effect (and pedaling effect). It would be infringing upon the Ellsworth patented design. ICT claims of "efficiency" in the patent are a farce but may impress non-engineers, but it did get a patent or two for the measured link configuration specification.

    - ray
    Yeah, Brian's got to stop running his chain lines through his instant centers.

    I do agree with you that braking can only be completely neutral momentarily. It can only occur with a parallel linkage that is parallel to the ground. Or when the intersection of the extended links lies on the ground line.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by red5
    Brian,

    Yeah how you described it is exactly how it works, the dropouts only are 10mm, the remainder of the hub is 12mm. Cool you'll be getting a call soon. What specifically should I ask for, a 12mm Sinner? Thanks.

    David
    Yes, mention the 12 mm axle, and also what derailleur. There is a different pin that fits into the end of the der bolt, for shimano and sram.

    Brian

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crash&Burn
    No offense but that web site is PITA to navigate and the constantly cycling images really make it hard to understand what you are trying to show. Also what is with bike companies and flash? They all do it and it hurts to navigate, plus as you pointed out yourself image quality suffers or load times suck.

    I feel like a prick now but really a simple static html site with logically grouped icons (thumbnails are your friend) to navigate and a static width of ~800 px would help greatly.
    crash, no offense taken. The responses and criticism are great. But I would like to ask you to be more constructive and specific. What in particular makes it difficult to navigate? Are the buttons not labelled accurately enough as to what you should expect from each page?

    As for the cycling, I know it can be a pain to watch, that's why there is a start/stop button for each "video".

    Why do bike companies like flash, I can't speak for anyone else, but I find 99% of all websites to be boring. Flash at least has the ability to make things a little more interesting. Of course, like anything, that's subjective, and doesn't do anygood if you can't find what you're looking for, or if it locks up your computer.

    Also, for me personally, I hate thuumbnails. They always take forever to load (longer than our flash site on my computer) and you still have to click and wait for the hi-res image to load. I am going to try that for the "customer show off" page however.

    As for the 800px page width, are you saying that that would avoid the page spilling off to the side on some browsers?

    Thanks,

    Brian

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by shock

    As for the 800px page width, are you saying that that would avoid the page spilling off to the side on some browsers?

    Thanks,

    Brian
    Yes, I definately think you should fix that, makes it much easier to navigate when you dont have to keep scrolling sideways.
    <><

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by derby
    The website is very slow and awkward to use. That may not help sales, it hints that the product is likewise.

    BTW, there is nothing 100% efficient or isolated or decoupled about floating brakes. There may be fleeting moments when the tensions converge for a moment of harmonious or unused reactivty (while doing a stoppie maybe, but unlikely ant any other point of use).

    Adjustable floaters adds another tuning option for handling and braking traction.

    The floating brake design when configured to be nearly parallel linked with a lower monopivot suspension to the frame is mechanically and effectively ICT compliant for braking effect (and pedaling effect). It would be infringing upon the Ellsworth patented design. ICT claims of "efficiency" in the patent are a farce but may impress non-engineers, but it did get a patent or two for the measured link configuration specification.

    If I had a long travel high monopivot mounted rear brake, I'd get one. Other designs may not benefit as noticeably compared to the added weight of the unit and potential for mistaken more complicated tuning possible.

    The ride is the true test.

    - ray
    Derby,

    First, thanks for the comments on the website, slow, I'm aware of, but could you be more specific about "awkward to use". In what way. I'm inviting criticism, but hopefully in a constructive way.

    And I really don't want to turn this into a floater discussion, if we want to do that, we should start another thread so everyone can post the "roll eyes" and not this **** again.

    Bu tyour explanation doesn't make sense. How on earth would any configuration of floating brake result in ICT compliance for pedaling effect? and infringe on ellsworth's patents?

    Brian

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by WheelieMan
    Yes, I definately think you should fix that, makes it much easier to navigate when you dont have to keep scrolling sideways.
    Yeah, I hate that. My goal was no scrolling anywhere, even downward, I just don't like that personally. The frustrating thing is that on the computer I used to do the layout, it fit, but maybe because it was a higher res monitor. That might also account for the fact the the images are lower quality after I published it than they were on the layout.

    Thnaks,

    brian

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by madtownfreerider
    shock. Do you have a pic of a floter on a bighit. i would buy one its just that i need to see what it looks like before i buy. plus what would be the pro's and con's of puting a floter on an fsr bike?
    Big Hit picture is coming, but it is the same setupmas on the M-1. Pro's better braking and suspension action (yes even better than the amzing standard fsr configuration). Cons, 1/2-3/4 pound (depending on exact configuration) and $295 lighter in the wallet (of course with the money back guarantee).

    Reliability has been stellar, some of our floaters are 7 years old with no failures at all. Usually everythingf else on the bike wears out or breaks first.

    Brian
    Attached Images Attached Images

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve from JH
    Yeah, Brian's got to stop running his chain lines through his instant centers.

    I do agree with you that braking can only be completely neutral momentarily. It can only occur with a parallel linkage that is parallel to the ground. Or when the intersection of the extended links lies on the ground line.
    Chain lines thru instant centers for floating brakes. mmmmm. You guys are inventing new things all the time.

    Again, I don't think your thinking the floating brake issue completely thru. Draw a free body diagram. Show forces and directions. This is what I'm going to do on the "FAQ/how it works" page of the website.

    Then all the engineers, netgineers, wanna be engineers, can't be engineers, haters, players, and everyone else can calculate, attack, and hopefully have a more rational discussion. Otherwise it's just arguing, and that's why everyone (myself included) is pretty tired of it.

    Brian

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by shock
    Chain lines thru instant centers for floating brakes. mmmmm. You guys are inventing new things all the time.

    Again, I don't think your thinking the floating brake issue completely thru. Draw a free body diagram. Show forces and directions. This is what I'm going to do on the "FAQ/how it works" page of the website.

    Then all the engineers, netgineers, wanna be engineers, can't be engineers, haters, players, and everyone else can calculate, attack, and hopefully have a more rational discussion. Otherwise it's just arguing, and that's why everyone (myself included) is pretty tired of it.

    Brian
    My first sentence was meant to be sarcastic, getting at the same thing you were in your reply to Derby.

    I'm not really thinking the floating brake issue through at all. I'm just parroting what is clearly implied in the kinematic analysis of floating brakes in a motorcycle text I have.

    I look forward to your revised FAQ/how it works.

  32. #32
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    Here's a diagram.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  33. #33
    rockin the mid-west
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    Quote Originally Posted by shock
    Big Hit picture is coming, but it is the same setupmas on the M-1. Pro's better braking and suspension action (yes even better than the amzing standard fsr configuration). Cons, 1/2-3/4 pound (depending on exact configuration) and $295 lighter in the wallet (of course with the money back guarantee).

    Reliability has been stellar, some of our floaters are 7 years old with no failures at all. Usually everythingf else on the bike wears out or breaks first.

    Brian
    ok one more ? . can you run a 2.7 tire on the bighit or would that rub on the bar that runs from the link plate to the floter.
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  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve from JH
    My first sentence was meant to be sarcastic, getting at the same thing you were in your reply to Derby.

    I'm not really thinking the floating brake issue through at all. I'm just parroting what is clearly implied in the kinematic analysis of floating brakes in a motorcycle text I have.

    I look forward to your revised FAQ/how it works.
    Yeah, I suspected sarcasm, but sometimes it's hard to pick up on without hearing the "tone of voice". I know a lot of my "so called humor" gets misinterpreted on these boards. So maybe Derby was being sarcastic.......

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve from JH
    Here's a diagram.
    And I have to say I find that diagram a bit flawed, there are a few things not being taken into account there, but it's going to take me some time before I have mine finished.

    Out of curiosity, which book, I may well have it sitting on the shelf somewhere.

    Brian

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by madtownfreerider
    ok one more ? . can you run a 2.7 tire on the bighit or would that rub on the bar that runs from the link plate to the floter.
    tire clearance can be an issue, and all 2.7 are not the same width. The rod is 1/2 in diameter, so find something close and put it in there to gage what kind of clearance you might have..Sorry I can't be more exact, but tires vary too much.

    Brian

  37. #37
    rockin the mid-west
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    Quote Originally Posted by shock
    tire clearance can be an issue, and all 2.7 are not the same width. The rod is 1/2 in diameter, so find something close and put it in there to gage what kind of clearance you might have..Sorry I can't be more exact, but tires vary too much.

    Brian
    thanks it would be maxxis or arrow just to let you know! I will pick one up as soon as i have the $$$$$$
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  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by shock
    And I have to say I find that diagram a bit flawed, there are a few things not being taken into account there, but it's going to take me some time before I have mine finished.

    Out of curiosity, which book, I may well have it sitting on the shelf somewhere.

    Brian
    The book is MOTORCYCLE DESIGN AND TECHNOLOGY by Gaetano Cocco, who is an engineer with Aprilia cycles.

    The diagram was my version since I don't have one from the book scanned. I do have a diagram from the book concerning chain drive acceleration effects scanned and I'll post it below. Just imagine that the chain line is a solid, pivotally connected link and you've basically got the diagram for a floating brake linkage. And of course you have to reverse the forces.
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    Last edited by Steve from JH; 06-23-2005 at 07:35 AM.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by shock
    Derby,

    First, thanks for the comments on the website, slow, I'm aware of, but could you be more specific about "awkward to use". In what way. I'm inviting criticism, but hopefully in a constructive way.

    And I really don't want to turn this into a floater discussion, if we want to do that, we should start another thread so everyone can post the "roll eyes" and not this **** again.

    Bu tyour explanation doesn't make sense. How on earth would any configuration of floating brake result in ICT compliance for pedaling effect? and infringe on ellsworth's patents?

    Brian
    Website clarity:
    There are industry standards for end use website design. Not to say standard user design is appropriate for us fringe element bikie types. I would suggest using both standard and artsy. I havenít spent a lot of time browsing your web site and perhaps the slow performance just threw me off.

    But standard usability is sub 3-second response of any mouse-click event, with 10 to 12 seconds being the maximum a user will tolerate before not using the web site (unless forced to). Web page menu standard is to clearly list link or button options in a screen left side column and/or across top screen horizontal row below logo or company splash graphic.

    The content of the menu selections displays center screen (to the right of any left-side menu column) and the menu row and/or column continues to display valid options. I think yours does that, but somehow it seemed busy and hard to read to me (but Iím getting old and impatient).

    ICT infringement:
    The Ellsworth patents mentions neutral braking I think he calls it ICBT for instant Center Brake Tracking. As an engineer the claims donít make any sense to me so I may not be representing them as published. But it states that using parallel swing links with the frame with vertical or 90 degree rear floater link is most neutral. I donít know if the configuration limitation for braking effects is claimed as a patented design monopoly, but it is implied that braking link configuration is included in the patented spec design.

    The Ellsworth patent pictures show linkages that are almost rear axle concentric in the lower-rear pivot design, practically as close as practically possible. The pedaling and braking effects are also just as close to rear axle concentric rear link design. In practical application the ICT design axle does not float significantly in separation from the lower swing arm link. The Brake Therapy floater on a low monopivot or ďFaux-barĒ has mechanically the same braking effect as an Ellsworth ICT design with the same link angles.

    The Ellsworth ICT designs are not monopivot, but they are monopivot emulating in pedaling deign. Given the same shock rate and other frame and fit dimentions, there is no noticeable difference in pedaling reactivity effect when a monopivot is configured in the same place as the lower swing link of an Ellsworth ICT design. You could extend the rear axle and near BB pivot, then add on a monopivot swing link to the ICT bike and there would be nearly no binding of the suspension travel (unlike trying that with any other floating axle design with more axle offset from the rear pivot). The pedaling effect also is dependant on chain tension and many other variables. So with the same chainline, of the monopivot in the same place as the lower swing link of an ICT bike, the pedaling effects are virtually the same, with other alignment factors are much more influential. The Ellsworth ICT designs are ďfaux-barĒ shock linkage monopivot emulating.

    So if you configure a Brake Therapy brake linkage to be near in angle to the patented Ellsworth drawings, you will have an ICT compliant pedaling and braking specification and the same effects. I donít think youíd be sued by Ellsworth. He obviously doesnít understand the mechanics of the floating axle design potential to produce non-monopivot effects. Or he would have just made a more durable monopivot of the same weight with the same shock rate, and add one of your brake floaters for the same pedaling and braking effects. But he couldnít patent that and hype it up as unique.

    BTW, Steveís diagrams may be accurate for unicycles (I donít understand it either, the path of the tire patch exactly follows the axle path in direction at any moment. Perhaps there are missing correlations in the diagram). If you add a front wheel to the frame then the forward and rearward tensions of the swing links then pivot the frame around the front axle in addition to the rear. Any floater brake with an IC outside of the wheelbase actually extends the rear suspension. The rear floater brake is always reactive to the rear suspension, unless the suspension is locked out. The reactivity can be tuned to aid handling and traction or be counter-productive. There are other factors, such as path and gravity, which counter visible suspension extension. The geometry of outside of wheelbase ICís is influential to speed up rebound while rear braking. And some extending reactivity influence may be a benefit to the overall tuning of handling and traction while braking.

    The ride is the true test.

    - ray

  40. #40
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    so if i order one fr my gemini , (im living in the uk) what do i get and how much it cost me including shipping i cant get this info on site

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by gemini2000
    so if i order one fr my gemini , (im living in the uk) what do i get and how much it cost me including shipping i cant get this info on site
    floaters are US$295.00, and they all come with a full, money back, satisfaction guarantee.
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  42. #42
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    Derby,

    First of all thanks for clarifying your comments on the website. That's a bit more useful.

    I don't want to derail this into a floater debate, but since you stepped up and gave it a shot, I want to clear up a few things.

    First of all, there simply is no such thing as neutral braking without a full floating brake. In any suspension design, no matter what assembly of links, or what direction those links are arranged, the force at the contact tire patch, as it relates to the braking (and pedaling)effect, can be found using the instant center method shown in the diagrams above.

    This force affects EVERY suspension currently in use as a single pivot, at every stage of it's travel. The forces at the ground are exactly the same as if the instant center, virtual pivot, ict or whatever, were located in metal, permantly attached to the bike frame.

    A bike with two links (a four bar linkage) has the added charicteristic of having that ict, ic, vpp move in relation to the frame as the suspension compresses. Note, this doesn't affect so called faux bars, where the single pivot IS inmetal, and the four bar linkage is only used to drive the shock.

    What this movement means is that the force of braking or pedalling at the ground varies as the suspension compresses, depending on where this pivot moves. Neverless, the force is identical to a single pivot bike whever that pivot might be located.

    The ellsworth is of this design (as are fsr, vpp, dwlink, faith, f1, lawill, etc.) In each case there is no floaring brake link. The "hub carrier" or link which holds the wheel, are the very same piece of metal that the brake caliper is attached to, therefore there is no way to datach, or float the brake caliper. The braking force at the ground, thru the wheel, must go thru the caliper into the suspension directly, as opposed to afloating brake, where the caliper rotates arounfd the axle, decoupling those forces.

    This interaction at the tire/ground contact patch, is accompanied by the torque reaction of the caliper on th eswingarm, and is not shown in the diagram above. Niether is chain pull effect of pedalling. These effects are seperate ans happen even if the wheel is off the ground. But they still react around the ic, as if it were at single pivot at that moment.

    So, only with a floating brake, can you decouple those forces, this means the claliper must not be rigidly attache to the same piece of metal that the hub is.

    But no matter your arrangement of floating brake, it will never have any effect on pedalling, ever.

    and finally, you can't patent a floating brake, they've been in the public domain longer than I have.

    Goodnight, and thanks again for all the comments everyone.

    Brian

  43. #43
    www.derbyrims.com
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    Quote Originally Posted by shock
    Derby,

    First of all thanks for clarifying your comments on the website. That's a bit more useful.

    I don't want to derail this into a floater debate, but since you stepped up and gave it a shot, I want to clear up a few things.

    First of all, there simply is no such thing as neutral braking without a full floating brake. In any suspension design, no matter what assembly of links, or what direction those links are arranged, the force at the contact tire patch, as it relates to the braking (and pedaling)effect, can be found using the instant center method shown in the diagrams above.

    This force affects EVERY suspension currently in use as a single pivot, at every stage of it's travel. The forces at the ground are exactly the same as if the instant center, virtual pivot, ict or whatever, were located in metal, permantly attached to the bike frame.

    A bike with two links (a four bar linkage) has the added charicteristic of having that ict, ic, vpp move in relation to the frame as the suspension compresses. Note, this doesn't affect so called faux bars, where the single pivot IS inmetal, and the four bar linkage is only used to drive the shock.

    What this movement means is that the force of braking or pedalling at the ground varies as the suspension compresses, depending on where this pivot moves. Neverless, the force is identical to a single pivot bike whever that pivot might be located.

    The ellsworth is of this design (as are fsr, vpp, dwlink, faith, f1, lawill, etc.) In each case there is no floaring brake link. The "hub carrier" or link which holds the wheel, are the very same piece of metal that the brake caliper is attached to, therefore there is no way to datach, or float the brake caliper. The braking force at the ground, thru the wheel, must go thru the caliper into the suspension directly, as opposed to afloating brake, where the caliper rotates arounfd the axle, decoupling those forces.

    This interaction at the tire/ground contact patch, is accompanied by the torque reaction of the caliper on th eswingarm, and is not shown in the diagram above. Niether is chain pull effect of pedalling. These effects are seperate ans happen even if the wheel is off the ground. But they still react around the ic, as if it were at single pivot at that moment.

    So, only with a floating brake, can you decouple those forces, this means the claliper must not be rigidly attache to the same piece of metal that the hub is.

    But no matter your arrangement of floating brake, it will never have any effect on pedalling, ever.

    and finally, you can't patent a floating brake, they've been in the public domain longer than I have.

    Goodnight, and thanks again for all the comments everyone.

    Brian
    Brian, you must be quite interested in this to have a career making floaters. I enjoy discussing the concepts of suspension (floaters are brake bridges too) because I keep learning new perspectives and validating if my perspective is close to real and repeatable.

    Add on floaters should improve braking in most higher speed applications and some lower speed trail bike use too.

    Compared to fixed suspension integrated floater brakes (FSR, VPP, etc), the big advantage is you can tune your floaters by changing link angles and lengths, unlike nearly all fixed suspension floater brakes.

    Rear braking is always reactive to the rear suspension. There's no magic isolation trick. But some links alignments work better than others depending on the use.

    I tend to agree that the IC of a floater brake acts like a monopivot brake link attached to the frame in the same place at any moment (however, the change of leverage rate is very different comparing the two systems during travel.) So you should be able to see that when a monopivot attached to a frame that extended ahead of the front wheel and when the rear brake is applied, then the ‚Äúpivot‚ÄĚ will rotate with the rear wheel and tension the frame *ahead of the front wheel* in a compressive direction, the frame also pivots on the front axle and lifts the seat area and extends the rear suspension. The same leverage balance effect lifts the rear suspension when a braked floater IC is behind the rear wheel (any frame area ahead of the front wheel pivots around the front axle too and is rotated lower). Only IC's of braked floaters between the wheels compress the rear suspension.

    The trick is to tune a brake floater's reactivity to balance smoothly with the rest of the bike's reactions.

    - ray
    Last edited by derby; 06-24-2005 at 09:49 AM.

  44. #44
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    Derby,

    Actually my "carreer" has been much more engineering and design in auto racing. Even in bikes, I was designing front and rear suspension long before we started selling floating brakes (or disc brakes for that matter)..

    It just so happens that floaters have become one of our more popular products, and still the most misunderstood and controversial.

    As in your statement "fixed suspension floating brakes". There is not now, or ever will be such a thing. It's like saying "full suspension hardtail".

    A floating brake, by definition, must have a caliper mount that is not rigidly connected to the dropout. If not, it's not a floating brake. Period. The examples you keep bringing up, vpp, etc, are not floating brakes in any way shape or form.

    They do react differently from each other, dependant solely on the location of the pivot at any given time, just like a true single pivot bike will vary depending on that pivot location.

    Brian

  45. #45
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    No good That site gets a D-

    Slightly better than the "F" you had working before, but the new site is very hacky and amateur (and that makes me think your company is... well.. hacky and amateur). Your main page is titled "New Page 1" which is terrible... all of the text is "graphic" these two things alone will make your page do terrible in Google. Plus the design is just "dull"...

    Here's an example of what a great bike site (that demonstrates a "technological edge") should be: http://www.blackburndesign.com/

    For full disclosure, my Art Director Chris designed and built the above site as a freelance project. My company had nothing to do with it so this is in NO WAY reply disguised as a promotion for me...

    Nothing personal... but you asked... and sometimes the truth hurts.
    Last edited by MTBKauai; 06-24-2005 at 02:10 PM.

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by MTBKauai
    Slightly better than the "F" you had working before, but the new site is very hacky and amateur (and that makes me think your company is... well.. hacky and amateur). Your main page is titled "New Page 1" which is terrible... all of the text is "graphic" these two things alone will make your page do terrible in Google. Plus the design is just "dull"...

    Here's an example of what a great bike site (that demonstrates a "technological edge") should be: http://www.blackburndesign.com/

    For full disclosure, by Art Director Chris designed and built the above site as a freelance project. My company had nothing to do with it so this is in NO WAY reply disguised as a promotion for me...

    Nothing personal... but you asked... and sometimes the truth hurts.
    I have to concur, but do so with the utmost respect ,and hope you take the critisicm as constuctive and not abusive,etc..

    Thanks!

    I love the concept behind your products... Question: will the "Scream" therapy mount on a Chaparral?

    Thanks again!

  47. #47
    aka Jesse Palmer
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    The things that look the worst to me are the pre-made looking flash navigation buttons and also the quality of the pictures in your flash animations are pretty bad. Get some higher resolution pictures to use, and maybe leave them out of flash, I never like the way images seam to turn to crap when you put them into flash.
    As mentioned before don't put any text into image files because google can't index anything contained in a image. The more (real, not in an image) words about maintian bikes and the particular product you have the more likely someone will find your page on google. Good tips are also to remeber to change the title of every page to include the main keywords contianed on the page.
    A last hint is to make sure you can see the entire width of your page at 800x600 screen resolution.

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by shock
    Derby,

    Actually my "carreer" has been much more engineering and design in auto racing. Even in bikes, I was designing front and rear suspension long before we started selling floating brakes (or disc brakes for that matter)..

    It just so happens that floaters have become one of our more popular products, and still the most misunderstood and controversial.

    As in your statement "fixed suspension floating brakes". There is not now, or ever will be such a thing. It's like saying "full suspension hardtail".

    A floating brake, by definition, must have a caliper mount that is not rigidly connected to the dropout. If not, it's not a floating brake. Period. The examples you keep bringing up, vpp, etc, are not floating brakes in any way shape or form.

    They do react differently from each other, dependant solely on the location of the pivot at any given time, just like a true single pivot bike will vary depending on that pivot location.

    Brian
    Perhaps there is a language barrier; there is no standard terminology.

    I should say suspension with fixed-dimension (as opposed to adjustable) *integrated* floating brake (FSR, VPP, etc.) vs. suspension with and add-on floating brake (such as Brake Therapy). If the axle and caliper is attached to a link (even triangulated link such as VPP), which is not a swing link with the frame, then it is a floating (link) brake by common use definition.

    There is no sacred or magical geometry effect with a dropout pivot. You are creating a new floating brake dropout pivot, a concentric dropout pivot with the axle using the add-on floater when the caliper link is above the axle. Sounds like you have invented a special term floater that has no special effect different (other than geometry differences) than integrated suspension floaters that have dropout pivots too.

    The geometry leverage effect difference to the bikeís original suspension brake geometry is what matters.

    If you could mount an add-on floater such as Brake Therapy to a Dare with caliper link and frame link the same dimension as the Dare's rear and upper link you'd have 98% the same braking effects. The Dare's chain stay misses axle concentric (in other words, monopivot swingarm) by less than 1 inch, The Dare is 98% in effect a monopivot "faux-bar" with a fixed-dimension integrated floater brake. No one could tell the difference in braking effects other than possible link flex differences.

    With add-on floaters, the brake link geometry can be very different. And the changed brake geometry effects are blended with the same old suspension's reactivity. There is never any separation of the suspensionís reactivity to braking by using add-on floater brakes, only changed reactivity.

    - ray

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by MTBKauai
    Slightly better than the "F" you had working before, but the new site is very hacky and amateur (and that makes me think your company is... well.. hacky and amateur). Your main page is titled "New Page 1" which is terrible... all of the text is "graphic" these two things alone will make your page do terrible in Google. Plus the design is just "dull"...

    Here's an example of what a great bike site (that demonstrates a "technological edge") should be: http://www.blackburndesign.com/

    For full disclosure, my Art Director Chris designed and built the above site as a freelance project. My company had nothing to do with it so this is in NO WAY reply disguised as a promotion for me...

    Nothing personal... but you asked... and sometimes the truth hurts.
    Hey, thre truth never hurts unless you're lying to yourself. I asked for all input, and thanks for giving yours. The positive part is that you actually think it's better than the old one, and it is still a rough draft, as I stated when starting this thread, so lots of room for imrprovement.

    The text issue has been brought up, and that will changed to html fordsearch engines. The New page one was actually titled "home" but for some reason that changed itself when I published it. Kind of a minor detail to me, but it has been pointed out by others.

    Like everything else, so much is subjective, for example, the blackburn site is decent, but I would never call it great, just decent. My main complaint is th eneed to scroll. For some reason that just bugs me. Iknow that my pages are appearing to wide on some platforms and need to be scrolled sideways, but that will be fixed. The scrolling downward, for me, just increases download time. I'd rather the page come up quicker and have more pages, but maybe that's just me.

    Hacky and amateur, so be it, it was done by an amateur, me, which is all the budget allowed. But it will improve greatly as time goes on, and I learn more. However, and I've certainly had this argument with others, I do wonder about people that would make a judgement about a company due to the appearance of their website. A slick presentation can not hide a crap company, and anyone interested in a high tech product should be smart enough to do research beyond the website. Again, maybe just me.

    Thanks again for the input.

    Brian

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by pdirt
    I have to concur, but do so with the utmost respect ,and hope you take the critisicm as constuctive and not abusive,etc..

    Thanks!

    I love the concept behind your products... Question: will the "Scream" therapy mount on a Chaparral?

    Thanks again!
    Again, I asked for it, and I certainly knew it was not going to be universally acclaimed as the best of the best. Mostly I wanted input on thngs like download time, data content, ease of use, etc. Most people are chosing to focus on "appearance", and that's fine too, just not quite as useful. But it all goes into the mix, and will help as I work on improving it, so thanks for your comments.

    About the scream floater, it would be (and work) identical on the chaparral. Drop me an email at [email protected]

    Brian

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by derby
    Perhaps there is a language barrier; there is no standard terminology.

    I should say suspension with fixed-dimension (as opposed to adjustable) *integrated* floating brake (FSR, VPP, etc.) vs. suspension with and add-on floating brake (such as Brake Therapy). If the axle and caliper is attached to a link (even triangulated link such as VPP), which is not a swing link with the frame, then it is a floating (link) brake by common use definition.

    There is no sacred or magical geometry effect with a dropout pivot. You are creating a new floating brake dropout pivot, a concentric dropout pivot with the axle using the add-on floater when the caliper link is above the axle. Sounds like you have invented a special term floater that has no special effect different (other than geometry differences) than integrated suspension floaters that have dropout pivots too.

    The geometry leverage effect difference to the bike s original suspension brake geometry is what matters.

    If you could mount an add-on floater such as Brake Therapy to a Dare with caliper link and frame link the same dimension as the Dare's rear and upper link you'd have 98% the same braking effects. The Dare's chain stay misses axle concentric (in other words, monopivot swingarm) by less than 1 inch, The Dare is 98% in effect a monopivot "faux-bar" with a fixed-dimension integrated floater brake. No one could tell the difference in braking effects other than possible link flex differences.

    With add-on floaters, the brake link geometry can be very different. And the changed brake geometry effects are blended with the same old suspension's reactivity. There is never any separation of the suspension s reactivity to braking by using add-on floater brakes, only changed reactivity.

    - ray
    We seem to be talking around in circles here (as a lot of these discussions seem to degenerate to), but I'm going to make another attempt.

    I did invent the floating brake. I did not invent the term "floating brake". I did not invent the definition for the term "floating brake". The term floating brake, since its inception, has always described a caliper carrier that pivots around the axle of the hub, thereby decoupling it from any forces acting on the wheel, and the wheel from the brake forces. If the caliper does not rotate around the axle, this cannot be done. THIS IS KEY.

    Again, I didn't invent this concept, term, or its definition. It is indeed "standard terminolgy".

    By the way, we do make a floater for the dare, as that bike is very afflicted by brake force interaction with the rear suspension. Another good example is the lawill bike, which is possibly the worst in terms of being affected by the brake force, even though the pivot is very close to the hub axle. I'm afraid there is a fundamental misunderstanding you're having with the force relationships, I'm just not sure why, but you're certainly not alone

    Keep thinking about it, and maybe when I finish my web page i will be easier to explain things to you. In the meantime, try to get a ride on some of these bikes with and without a floater.

    After all, the ride is the true test....

    Brian
    Last edited by shock; 06-25-2005 at 02:10 PM.

  52. #52
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    crack...
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    I've beat beer cans on my limp pee pee.

  53. #53
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    Cool-blue Rhythm Great Reply!

    I'm glad you can take the hit and not get all defensive... most people buckle under the slightest critique. They don't learn and improve which is the secret to pretty much EVERYTHING. Kudos on that point...

    As for people judging you by your site and not your products... it's an unfortunate fact that the site look and feel DOES matter. A lot. It's ALMOST everything. It's true that a great web site won't overcome the fact that a product is doggy (bad news spreads fast). But a bad web site can hide that a product is excellent (good new travels very slowly). It looks like you've got a good product, but word of mouth isn't going to rocket you to the bank.

    Here's another sad fact about consumers... to quote Jack Trout (an advertising guru), "most clients simply think that if they could just get their customers to understand why there products are superior their business will be successful. They are wrong. Dead wrong." Customers shouldn't have to convince themselves of anything... or do research... we're simple creatures... see it, like it, can't think of a reason not to buy it, order it, install it, brag about it... snort.

    Speaking from personal experience... I'm someone who loves to upgrade my equipment... back when I was riding a Bullit I was looking into a floating brake (everything else was upgraded already)... with money burning a hole in my pocket... your previous site actually convinced me NOT to by your product. I don't buy stuff out of the trunk on a car from a shifty looking guy on the corner and that's how the site felt. Where did the money go? I bought a VP-Free...

    My point is this: you're not competing with other floating brake companies, your competing against EVERYONE for customers' cash. You're product is an upgrade, not a requirement, and there are a lot of other upgrades on the market. In fact there's an annoying one blinking on the top of this page trying to get my attention right now...

    If you can scrape up a couple thousand dollars, there's a graphic designer out there who can make your company look like a MILLION bucks. You might even be able to find one to trade components for web design. If you can't scrape up a couple thousand bucks your customers will "feel" it and take off running... If you can't afford to build a good web site, how likely is it that you'll still be in business when I need support? Is this a part-time gig for you? What if you're at your day-job and I need help? There are lots of negative things one might assume if not "shown" the truth of the matter...

    The site is an improvement, but if your company is going to blow up (ie: double or triple sales) you'll have to step it up a bit more. If you're only looking for incremental improvement then that's what you'll get.

    I wish you all the best, thanks for "taking the hit".

    Rob

    ps. Hopey is another "expensive" upgrade and their site convinced me that I could trust them. I now own two of them... http://www.hopey.org/ Their site is professional without being "fancy" or "cutting edge" (I doubt it cost more than $1500). In my harsh grading scale, I'd give them a B.

    pss: here's my company site (http://tsunamimarketing.com) and NO, I'm not looking to turn you into a new business lead! I'm just sharing what I know with a fellow bike guy... not trolling for work.

  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by shock
    a caliper carrier that pivots around the axle of the hub, thereby decoupling it from any forces acting on the wheel, and the wheel from the brake forces.
    This makes no sense. If the brake forces were decoupled from the wheel, they couldn't physically stop it from turning.

    It's also nonsense to speak of a floating brake "isolating the rear suspension". If you put the brake on a different linkage than the suspension, it will still exert forces on the front triangle. Since all the parts of a bicycle are connected, pushing the front triangle around will cause the rear suspension to move, no matter whether it's pushed by the rider bouncing on the seat, the front suspension bottoming out, or a floating brake linkage pushing on it.

    What a floating brake does is give the brake the characteristics of the 4-bar system composed of the floating brake arms and the swingarm. For most floating brake setups I see on your site, the instant center of the brake linkage is located behind the rear axle, a design which will extend under braking ("brake jack"). This will negate some of the squat which naturally happens from weight transfer when braking.

    Some people want their rear brake to behave this way, particularly on high-pivot bikes that would otherwise squat a lot. However, floating brakes don't do anything magical like "isolate forces from the rear suspension". That's crazy talk.

  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by MTBKauai
    (snip)My point is this: you're not competing with other floating brake companies, your competing against EVERYONE for customers' cash. You're product is an upgrade, not a requirement, and there are a lot of other upgrades on the market. In fact there's an annoying one blinking on the top of this page trying to get my attention right now...

    If you can scrape up a couple thousand dollars, there's a graphic designer out there who can make your company look like a MILLION bucks. You might even be able to find one to trade components for web design. If you can't scrape up a couple thousand bucks your customers will "feel" it and take off running... If you can't afford to build a good web site, how likely is it that you'll still be in business when I need support? Is this a part-time gig for you? What if you're at your day-job and I need help? There are lots of negative things one might assume if not "shown" the truth of the matter...(snip)
    I think this is excellent advice. Not much else to add. My suggestions for the website are, of course, posted in the thread on Ridemonkey, but in the end, if you pony up for a good designer with a good portfolio, your website is going to look phenominal.

    Good example of another fairly recent business, look at the E13 components website. Clean, professional, easy to navigate, and super fast to load.

  56. #56
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    Another diagram

    Quote Originally Posted by shock

    By the way, we do make a floater for the dare, as that bike is very afflicted by brake force interaction with the rear suspension. Another good example is the lawill bike, which is possibly the worst in terms of being affected by the brake force, even though the pivot is very close to the hub axle. I'm afraid there is a fundamental misunderstanding you're having with the force relationships, I'm just not sure why, but you're certainly not alone



    Brian
    Here's a diagram of the Dare in a sagged position. The black slanted line indicates the brake force angle if the bike were a single pivot with the pivot at the center of curvature for the shown suspension position--in other words a single pivot that would come as close as possible to duplicating the Dare's axle path. The resultant compressing force on the rear contact patch would be equal the sine of that angle times the force at the ground. It's ~64% of the braking force

    The red slanted line is the brake force angle for the actual Dare. The resultant is ~29% of the braking force.

    The blue slanted line would be if there were a floater (indicated by the blue band added to the linkage) parallel to the virtual swing arm line of the Dare. The resultant is ~6% of the braking force.

    Brian, I don't know why you would say the Dare is "very afflicted by brake force interaction with the suspension." It seems to me the Dare is among the least afflicted of bikes without floaters.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  57. #57
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    It's funny, Steve. Despite all of your drawings and quotes from reference material, I've never seen anyone agree with you...

  58. #58
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    Brian, you really need to spend some money and pay someone with solid skills to re-design your website. 11 seconds between the time I click a navigation button and anything at all happens? On a fast internet connect? I guarantee you are losing people with poor usability like that. Can you think of any other websites that take that long to respond?

    There's so much going on there, you'd be much better off paying someone to do the site. PM me if you're interested in a detailed writeup. I'm a web developer by trade, but I'm not fishing for the job.

    Finally, I want to applaud how receptive you've been to all the constructive criticism in this thread. That's a welcome to change to how defensive most people would be in that same situation. Cheers.

    -Also named Brian

  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by MTBKauai
    I'm glad you can take the hit and not get all defensive... most people buckle under the slightest critique. They don't learn and improve which is the secret to pretty much EVERYTHING. Kudos on that point...

    As for people judging you by your site and not your products... it's an unfortunate fact that the site look and feel DOES matter. A lot. It's ALMOST everything. It's true that a great web site won't overcome the fact that a product is doggy (bad news spreads fast). But a bad web site can hide that a product is excellent (good new travels very slowly). It looks like you've got a good product, but word of mouth isn't going to rocket you to the bank.

    Here's another sad fact about consumers... to quote Jack Trout (an advertising guru), "most clients simply think that if they could just get their customers to understand why there products are superior their business will be successful. They are wrong. Dead wrong." Customers shouldn't have to convince themselves of anything... or do research... we're simple creatures... see it, like it, can't think of a reason not to buy it, order it, install it, brag about it... snort.

    Speaking from personal experience... I'm someone who loves to upgrade my equipment... back when I was riding a Bullit I was looking into a floating brake (everything else was upgraded already)... with money burning a hole in my pocket... your previous site actually convinced me NOT to by your product. I don't buy stuff out of the trunk on a car from a shifty looking guy on the corner and that's how the site felt. Where did the money go? I bought a VP-Free...

    My point is this: you're not competing with other floating brake companies, your competing against EVERYONE for customers' cash. You're product is an upgrade, not a requirement, and there are a lot of other upgrades on the market. In fact there's an annoying one blinking on the top of this page trying to get my attention right now...

    If you can scrape up a couple thousand dollars, there's a graphic designer out there who can make your company look like a MILLION bucks. You might even be able to find one to trade components for web design. If you can't scrape up a couple thousand bucks your customers will "feel" it and take off running... If you can't afford to build a good web site, how likely is it that you'll still be in business when I need support? Is this a part-time gig for you? What if you're at your day-job and I need help? There are lots of negative things one might assume if not "shown" the truth of the matter...

    The site is an improvement, but if your company is going to blow up (ie: double or triple sales) you'll have to step it up a bit more. If you're only looking for incremental improvement then that's what you'll get.

    I wish you all the best, thanks for "taking the hit".

    Rob

    ps. Hopey is another "expensive" upgrade and their site convinced me that I could trust them. I now own two of them... http://www.hopey.org/ Their site is professional without being "fancy" or "cutting edge" (I doubt it cost more than $1500). In my harsh grading scale, I'd give them a B.

    pss: here's my company site (http://tsunamimarketing.com) and NO, I'm not looking to turn you into a new business lead! I'm just sharing what I know with a fellow bike guy... not trolling for work.
    Rob,

    One interesting aspect that comes from these discussions is that it's always easy to tell which guys make their money in advertising, marketing, web desing, etc. And it's always those people that the website seems to "offend" the most. I'm not saying this as a negative, just an observation.

    People employed in that area are the most likely to say " I wouldn't buy a product from you because of your website" or " website image is everything" or the ever poular "you should take that piece of crap down, it's hurting your business, and you'd be better off with nothing!"

    That's ok, that's one extreme of the perspective, and as such has a certain validity. The other exteme is perhaps Hadley, who has never had a website and sells everything they can make.

    I'm somewhere in the middle. I'm not saying it doesn't matter, I'm not saying our site couldn't, shouldn't, or won't be better.

    I am saying I would like to give our customers a little more credit than to make a judgement on th eproduct due to the "presentation" of the website. Obviously in your case I was wrong (but I have to object when you say you bought the vpp free with the money you were going to spend on a floater, our stuff isn't that expensive!)

    And this might sound strange, but I wish you had decided otherwise more for your sake than mine. I lost a sale, but you lost the opportunity to make your bike better, and more enjoyable to ride, based on an opinion formed by the website. Again I suppose it's the engineer in me, but I don't make ANY buying decision based on websites, ads or any company propaganda. I do research. I look. I compare. I get word of mouth from people I know and trust, and then I make an informed decision. I tend to get what I want that way, and I never end up having buyer's remorse.

    As for your comments about the inability to scrape up the money for a website, and fears that may generate, what about Hadley? And again, some simple research (I know, I keep expecting customers to be responsible for what they buy) would have brought up the fact that we've been making and selling bike parts for over 10 years now, and have outlasted MANY companies that had nicer, slicker websites (maybe if they hadn't spent so much onit, they would still be around?) Some research would likely also bring up our reputation for customer service, again, I'm sure much better than many companies that have a very slick website.

    Thanks again for the input, again I'm not saying our site can't or won't be better, just that your perspective is a little more biased to your own line of work, and personally, I think limits your choices as a consumer...

    Brian

  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Caballo
    This makes no sense. If the brake forces were decoupled from the wheel, they couldn't physically stop it from turning.

    It's also nonsense to speak of a floating brake "isolating the rear suspension". If you put the brake on a different linkage than the suspension, it will still exert forces on the front triangle. Since all the parts of a bicycle are connected, pushing the front triangle around will cause the rear suspension to move, no matter whether it's pushed by the rider bouncing on the seat, the front suspension bottoming out, or a floating brake linkage pushing on it.

    What a floating brake does is give the brake the characteristics of the 4-bar system composed of the floating brake arms and the swingarm. For most floating brake setups I see on your site, the instant center of the brake linkage is located behind the rear axle, a design which will extend under braking ("brake jack"). This will negate some of the squat which naturally happens from weight transfer when braking.

    Some people want their rear brake to behave this way, particularly on high-pivot bikes that would otherwise squat a lot. However, floating brakes don't do anything magical like "isolate forces from the rear suspension". That's crazy talk.
    Of course you're right on your first point, that's what I get for typing fast and loose late at night. There are a few other mistakes in that post as well, but I can't seem to edit them.

    For example, my opening line was supposed to be "I did NOT invent the floating brake".

    And what I should have said was " the brake caliper rotating around the hub axle allows the brake force thru the wheel, to be decoupled from the suspension."

    Just take a minute to think about this. If the caliper and hub are bolted rigidly to the same piece of suspension (swingarm, link or whatever), the brake force on the wheel is transfered directly to the caliper, and then to the bolts holding the caliper on, and then to the piece of suspension the caliper is bolted to. You could see this on any bike simply by removing the shock and trying to rotate the rear wheel with the brake on. Watch the suspension move. It will.

    If, however, the caliper is bolted to a floating brake that rotates around the axle, no such transference occurs to the suspension. Now granted, you CAN attach the rod to the frame in nsuch a way as to input some of this force back into the suspension, and in some of our floaters this is done as a compromise (as I mentioned earlier when someone asked about this). Some of our floaters do this at the request of certain riders (Fabien Barel at Kona).

    But most of them, are indeed neutral, and very effectively isolate the suspension fromt he braking forces. And the floater rotating around the hub axle is key to this.

    A floater DOES NOT, give the characteristics of a four bar, horst link or what ever, and those suspension designs DO NOT achieve what a floating brake can.

    Brian

  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by binary visions
    I think this is excellent advice. Not much else to add. My suggestions for the website are, of course, posted in the thread on Ridemonkey, but in the end, if you pony up for a good designer with a good portfolio, your website is going to look phenominal.

    Good example of another fairly recent business, look at the E13 components website. Clean, professional, easy to navigate, and super fast to load.
    Well, at the moment, that couple thousand bucks is going into product development, because if I can finish some of the projects I'm working on (like the internally geared hub), I'll be much happier than if I have the best website. But maybe that's just the short sighted engineer in me again!!!

    So I'm afraid it's up to me to make th ewebsite look better (with a little help and advise from these threads of course).

    Thanks,

    Brian

  62. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by shock
    Well, at the moment, that couple thousand bucks is going into product development, because if I can finish some of the projects I'm working on (like the internally geared hub), I'll be much happier than if I have the best website. But maybe that's just the short sighted engineer in me again!!!
    Well, the best website in the world can't sell a product that doesn't exist!

    Just agreeing with the statement that if your business comes to a place where a couple thou isn't going to break you, it would be well spent on a site design with a good designer.

    As I said in the other thread, there are a few problems to be fixed but once those are taken care of, nothing that I or anyone else disagrees with will detract severely from the usability of it. For a self proclaimed newbie, you've packed a tremendous amount of information into the website!

  63. #63
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    Good job! Again, your reply is good...

    Hadley is an interesting example... I own a Hadley hub myself... I looked for a web site and could never find one (which surprised me at the time). I still bought it because there was nothing to convince me "not to" and it came highly recommended.

    There's a belief that: "there's no such thing as bad advertising" and it's just not true... "bad" advertising CAN really hurt sales. It happens all the time.

    Just as principals of engineering are beyond my grasp... the rules of my specialty don't apply to the physical properties of things... My last bit of input (and then I'm going to shut up) is that principals of engineering don't apply to marketing (rock solid product fail all the time... remember the BETA home video format? It was superior, but got killed by VHS marketing). Consumers are NOT rational, and rational arguments DON'T motivate action (unless you're selling a product to an engineer and then rationale works "sometimes").

    If advertising didn't work, American's would not be fat. It works... use it well and you'll make all our wallets a bit thinner!

    I've enjoyed our discussion, but now I've got to get away from this computer and ride!

    Rob

  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by shock
    Of course you're right on your first point, that's what I get for typing fast and loose late at night. There are a few other mistakes in that post as well, but I can't seem to edit them.

    For example, my opening line was supposed to be "I did NOT invent the floating brake".

    And what I should have said was " the brake caliper rotating around the hub axle allows the brake force thru the wheel, to be decoupled from the suspension."

    Just take a minute to think about this. If the caliper and hub are bolted rigidly to the same piece of suspension (swingarm, link or whatever), the brake force on the wheel is transfered directly to the caliper, and then to the bolts holding the caliper on, and then to the piece of suspension the caliper is bolted to. You could see this on any bike simply by removing the shock and trying to rotate the rear wheel with the brake on. Watch the suspension move. It will.

    If, however, the caliper is bolted to a floating brake that rotates around the axle, no such transference occurs to the suspension. Now granted, you CAN attach the rod to the frame in nsuch a way as to input some of this force back into the suspension, and in some of our floaters this is done as a compromise (as I mentioned earlier when someone asked about this). Some of our floaters do this at the request of certain riders (Fabien Barel at Kona).

    But most of them, are indeed neutral, and very effectively isolate the suspension fromt he braking forces. And the floater rotating around the hub axle is key to this.

    A floater DOES NOT, give the characteristics of a four bar, horst link or what ever, and those suspension designs DO NOT achieve what a floating brake can.

    Brian
    If you had a horst or four bar or whatever that was a true parallelogram, then your test of rotating the wheel with the brake on would not in fact move the suspension. Likewise if your floater does not make a true parallelogram with the swingarm, some movement will be imparted to the suspension. The movement might be so small as to be unnoticeable because the arrangement would be so close to a parallelogram, but the principle is still the same.

    And this test implies a bike raised off the ground with the only resistance to be overcome by the brake being the moment of inertia of the wheel. When you add in the force at the ground traction point, then even a parallelogram floater arrangement will impart some movement to the suspension whenever the arms are not parallel to the ground.

    The wheel will be coupled by the brake pads to the small link (I think you call it the plate) running between the axle and the pivot above at the rear of the connecting rod. If that link is in a position where it can move either upward and rearward or downward and rearward, then the suspension will be activated at least a little.

  65. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by shock
    Derby,

    First of all thanks for clarifying your comments on the website. That's a bit more useful.

    I don't want to derail this into a floater debate, but since you stepped up and gave it a shot, I want to clear up a few things.

    First of all, there simply is no such thing as neutral braking without a full floating brake. In any suspension design, no matter what assembly of links, or what direction those links are arranged, the force at the contact tire patch, as it relates to the braking (and pedaling)effect, can be found using the instant center method shown in the diagrams above.

    This force affects EVERY suspension currently in use as a single pivot, at every stage of it's travel. The forces at the ground are exactly the same as if the instant center, virtual pivot, ict or whatever, were located in metal, permantly attached to the bike frame.

    A bike with two links (a four bar linkage) has the added charicteristic of having that ict, ic, vpp move in relation to the frame as the suspension compresses. Note, this doesn't affect so called faux bars, where the single pivot IS inmetal, and the four bar linkage is only used to drive the shock.

    What this movement means is that the force of braking or pedalling at the ground varies as the suspension compresses, depending on where this pivot moves. Neverless, the force is identical to a single pivot bike whever that pivot might be located.

    The ellsworth is of this design (as are fsr, vpp, dwlink, faith, f1, lawill, etc.) In each case there is no floaring brake link. The "hub carrier" or link which holds the wheel, are the very same piece of metal that the brake caliper is attached to, therefore there is no way to datach, or float the brake caliper. The braking force at the ground, thru the wheel, must go thru the caliper into the suspension directly, as opposed to afloating brake, where the caliper rotates arounfd the axle, decoupling those forces.

    This interaction at the tire/ground contact patch, is accompanied by the torque reaction of the caliper on th eswingarm, and is not shown in the diagram above. Niether is chain pull effect of pedalling. These effects are seperate ans happen even if the wheel is off the ground. But they still react around the ic, as if it were at single pivot at that moment.

    So, only with a floating brake, can you decouple those forces, this means the claliper must not be rigidly attache to the same piece of metal that the hub is.

    But no matter your arrangement of floating brake, it will never have any effect on pedalling, ever.

    and finally, you can't patent a floating brake, they've been in the public domain longer than I have.

    Goodnight, and thanks again for all the comments everyone.

    Brian
    Why should it matter if the brake caliper is attached to the same piece of metal as the axle. As long as the Instant Center of the link that the caliper is attached to is located infinity feet in front of the bike, there should be "100% neutral braking", what am I missing?
    <><

  66. #66
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    You seem concerned about page load speed, so getting rid of those test images is going to make your pages load WAY faster. Getting rid of the flash graphics on your site will also vastly improve load time and also make your page look better. As I said if you aren't a graphic designer with a lot of experience with Flash, until you are a total master of Flash it's better to just leave it off your site. Get yourself a copy of photoshop, or just photoshop elements to spiff up and optimize any images you want to save to the web. Use the "Auto Color" to ceep the colors consistant between all your images.

    What I would love to see you do is make some nice flash animations of how floating brakes work, sort of like the FSR propaganda on specialized's site. If you are doing anyhting with flash draw everything with flash so it will load faster and look better, imprting images into flash just doesn't work well or look very good.

    You say that your page needs to be scrolled horizontally on "some" computers - well you are going to have to realize that most people surfing on computers are still set the their default resolution of 800*600. So just make your page less than 800 pixels wide. Or else those people are not going to be able to read all that wonderful engineering stuff you have written over there on the side

  67. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by WheelieMan
    Why should it matter if the brake caliper is attached to the same piece of metal as the axle. As long as the Instant Center of the link that the caliper is attached to is located infinity feet in front of the bike, there should be "100% neutral braking", what am I missing?
    What you say is right, but only if you don't take into account the force at the ground contact point. Raise the bike up on a stand, replace the shock with something like a bungee cord that will hold the suspension in a sagged position but move very easily, spin the rear wheel, put on the brake, and nothing will happen to the suspension.

    But with the bike actually rolling on the ground, the braking force will push the wheel and the floating link with the caliper either upward or downward if the push rod and swingarm are not parallel with the ground.

  68. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve from JH
    What you say is right, but only if you don't take into account the force at the ground contact point. Raise the bike up on a stand, replace the shock with something like a bungee cord that will hold the suspension in a sagged position but move very easily, spin the rear wheel, put on the brake, and nothing will happen to the suspension.

    But with the bike actually rolling on the ground, the braking force will push the wheel and the floating link with the caliper either upward or downward if the push rod and swingarm are not parallel with the ground.
    Yes,

    But it makes no sense for Brian to say that the only way to achieve "100 percent neutral braking" (in quotes for the reasons you stated) is to use a floating brake.
    <><

  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by WheelieMan
    Yes,

    But it makes no sense for Brian to say that the only way to achieve "100 percent neutral braking" (in quotes for the reasons you stated) is to use a floating brake.
    I agree.

    Of course there is no bike out there with a true parallelogram linkage. And there are true parallelogram floaters.

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