Mt. Baldy & SoCal Lift-Serviced Mountain Biking (NEED HELP!)- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
    WHAT HAS SCIENCE DONE!?!
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    Caution;  Merge;  Workers Ahead! Mt. Baldy & SoCal Lift-Serviced Mountain Biking (NEED HELP!)

    Well, I've talked to a couple people over at the Mt. Baldy resort this morning including their PR guy. They currently offer lift-accessed mountain biking, but only with the intent that the riders use the fire road for the descent. They do run their chair lift year round for sightseers, hikers, bikers, etc, and they will take up heavy downhill rigs. At the moment however they do not cater to the downhill segment, i.e., they do not maintain any mountain-bike-specific trails, and the off-fire-road trails that do exist are frequented by hikers.

    I explained the basic (publicized) situation with regard to the Summit closure, the general MTB environment at Summit, and that I felt that his resort would have to put forth very little marketing effort in order to capture Summit's MTB business. The guy I talked to was somewhat receptive to the idea of adding real support for downhillers. The good news so far is that Mt. Baldy does not tend to have the same erosion issues that Summit does, and has a fairly good relationship with their forest service (which is a different service than Summit).

    I think that if this resort is willing, the DH community would find great benefit in contributing as much as possible to help them make this work, e.g., suggesting/designing/building legal trails, showing of support/interest, getting the word out (*IF* they decide to create DH trails), etc.

    I now need to send this guy more information about our community and who he should be talking to about this. There are people here who have FAR more knowledge in this area than myself, given that I'm just another rider distressed at the closure of Summit. I'd greatly appreciate any suggestions, sources of information, contacts or general help with how to proceed.
    --Tod

    "I don't pretend to understand Brannigan's law; I merely enforce it."

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skygrounder
    Well, I've talked to a couple people over at the Mt. Baldy resort this morning including their PR guy. They currently offer lift-accessed mountain biking, but only with the intent that the riders use the fire road for the descent. They do run their chair lift year round for sightseers, hikers, bikers, etc, and they will take up heavy downhill rigs. At the moment however they do not cater to the downhill segment, i.e., they do not maintain any mountain-bike-specific trails, and the off-fire-road trails that do exist are frequented by hikers.

    I explained the basic (publicized) situation with regard to the Summit closure, the general MTB environment at Summit, and that I felt that his resort would have to put forth very little marketing effort in order to capture Summit's MTB business. The guy I talked to was somewhat receptive to the idea of adding real support for downhillers. The good news so far is that Mt. Baldy does not tend to have the same erosion issues that Summit does, and has a fairly good relationship with their forest service (which is a different service than Summit).

    I think that if this resort is willing, the DH community would find great benefit in contributing as much as possible to help them make this work, e.g., suggesting/designing/building legal trails, showing of support/interest, getting the word out (*IF* they decide to create DH trails), etc.

    I now need to send this guy more information about our community and who he should be talking to about this. There are people here who have FAR more knowledge in this area than myself, given that I'm just another rider distressed at the closure of Summit. I'd greatly appreciate any suggestions, sources of information, contacts or general help with how to proceed.
    Ok real quick... USFS=NO DH TRAILS. If you want real DH rails you NEED a resort on private land. At least in cali you do.
    Balls to the wall until you see god. Turn Left!

  3. #3
    For Da' Shorteez
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    Mammoth and N* have DH trails right? Are they on land serviced by the USFS. Can someone make this sticky? I think it's worth the effort.

  4. #4
    Chillin the Most
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    Cool...

    thank for being the rep for us, very cool of you too take the first steps. I will be watching future posts and will provide any support I can. This is sad news for local racers and riders, who frequented BB often.

    One thing that may have been a factor at BB, regarding the illegal trails, and may also be one for other "leased land" resorts is what can you actually "build" on the trail. I remember reading an article written about N*, the writer had asked the N* rep @ why more resorts hadn't taken the approach in building stunts and trails like they have. His response was something to the effect that because N* owns the land their building on they are not as restricted my the forest service who leases the land to most of the other resorts in Cali. If I can find the specifc article, MB Action mag I beleive, I will try to provide more specifics, but I hope this explains the general concept.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Loin
    Mammoth and N* have DH trails right? Are they on land serviced by the USFS. Can someone make this sticky? I think it's worth the effort.
    Northstar is on private land owned by Trimont Land Management (Georga Pacific Lumber)

    Before going to Northstar I tried and failed at two other resorts. If the USFS gets involved forget it. They may support you at first, but all it takes is one of your USFS allies to get transferred to another area and if his sucessor does not like what he sees it will go away.I had a guy from USFS that loved the fact that I was bringing summer business and employment to a resort that had no summer programs. For two years all went smooth, we built new trails with USFS permits, had great racing, and the locals had work for the summer. Well BOB left and his replacement shut it ALL down, would not renew my permits, and Mountain Biking in Bear Valley (Nor-Cal) has died completly. And I was only doing XC back then.
    Balls to the wall until you see god. Turn Left!

  6. #6
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    I'm sure the it all comes down to the fine print in the lease with the USFS, although they have a huge chunck of the land there are other government agencies that control areas of land depending on how it is designated. Since your in the same national forest your going to have the same issues SS had with building trails would be my guess. How ever the lease may give them flexibility on trail building. The best thing to do would be start talking to the ops side people of the mountain, also it would probably help to look at the usage plan for San Berinadino NF, and see what's in it about MTBing. The most important thing is to move forward in a very well thought out manner, and talk alot with the resort and USFS people, and don't burn any bridges.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by zutroy
    I'm sure the it all comes down to the fine print in the lease with the USFS, although they have a huge chunck of the land there are other government agencies that control areas of land depending on how it is designated. Since your in the same national forest your going to have the same issues SS had with building trails would be my guess. How ever the lease may give them flexibility on trail building. The best thing to do would be start talking to the ops side people of the mountain, also it would probably help to look at the usage plan for San Berinadino NF, and see what's in it about MTBing. The most important thing is to move forward in a very well thought out manner, and talk alot with the resort and USFS people, and don't burn any bridges.
    Nope it's in the hands of the ranger in charge of your area. Most USFS leases were written in the 60's and 70's before we came into play. These leases are 100 year terms, and any changes are handled by the local office. Trust me all it takes is one hippie ranger with saving the world on his mind and it's over. I know first hand because they ran me out of two resorts already(Bear Valley and Homewood). If they said jump I would say how high, followed ALL their rules and then some new guy came in and shut me down. The same thing started to happen a Big Bear a few years ago. USFS started to be more strict about trails, the cool courses went away, and now they have had a little influence to get things shut down at Big Bear. Just like anything else when the powers that be at Snow Summit sat down at the end of summer they weighed the pros and cons of DH on their mountain. At that time with pressure from a pending lawsuit, and with added pressure from the USFS their hands were tied at that point. I have dealt with resort policies, and have sat thru many of these meetings at Northstar so I know. At this point we are the lowest on the pole as far as policy is concerned. We represent less than 3% of a resorts annual income. We are not as huge as we once were either.
    Balls to the wall until you see god. Turn Left!

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by dhtahoe
    Nope it's in the hands of the ranger in charge of your area. Most USFS leases were written in the 60's and 70's before we came into play. These leases are 100 year terms, and any changes are handled by the local office. Trust me all it takes is one hippie ranger with saving the world on his mind and it's over. I know first hand because they ran me out of two resorts already(Bear Valley and Homewood). If they said jump I would say how high, followed ALL their rules and then some new guy came in and shut me down. The same thing started to happen a Big Bear a few years ago. USFS started to be more strict about trails, the cool courses went away, and now they have had a little influence to get things shut down at Big Bear. Just like anything else when the powers that be at Snow Summit sat down at the end of summer they weighed the pros and cons of DH on their mountain. At that time with pressure from a pending lawsuit, and with added pressure from the USFS their hands were tied at that point. I have dealt with resort policies, and have sat thru many of these meetings at Northstar so I know. At this point we are the lowest on the pole as far as policy is concerned. We represent less than 3% of a resorts annual income. We are not as huge as we once were either.
    Yeah that did happen to BB, they had that lame course that was all fire road for the nationals in 96 or 97 i think it was cause the got kicked off all the trails, by a hippie ranger. I'm not really familier in dealing with the USFS people out here, my dealing were all out East, the biggest thing I found was not pissing them off, and hoping you've gotten someone who isen't against MTB as stated earlier, since it's the same NF as where BB is I'd assume it's the same ranger in charge, or do the sub-divide them out here?

  9. #9
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    I take that back, the map i was looking at was wrong it's in Angeles NF. Anyone know what the thinking on MTBing there is?

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by zutroy
    I take that back, the map i was looking at was wrong it's in Angeles NF. Anyone know what the thinking on MTBing there is?
    Yep, the PR guy indicated that they were in Angeles. He did say that they have a very positive relationship with the forest service. I see where your coming from on this, and based on what everyone here has been saying I can certainly imagine that this is going to be a hurdle even if the relationship they have is very good.

    BTW.. I'm under the impression that there are no private-land resorts in SoCal where they can simply build as they please?

    Thanks again everyone...and keep the info coming!
    --Tod

    "I don't pretend to understand Brannigan's law; I merely enforce it."

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by dhtahoe
    .... Trust me all it takes is one hippie ranger with saving the world on his mind and it's over...
    Professor- Get off my property!
    Free Waterfall Junior- You can't own mother Earth, man!
    Professor- I can, but that's because I'm not a pennyless hippy!
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  12. #12
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    this might help (Whistler stuff)

    here's the media kit for 2004. It's generic, but what you need to convey is that Whistler is making a ton of money using assets and investments normally lying idle in summer.

    Once your hill figure$ out there'$ MONEY to be made, they will have ear$ for you.

    Jim


  13. #13
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    I'll send that off to them....definitely a good idea, thanks!

    Quote Originally Posted by JimC.
    here's the media kit for 2004. It's generic, but what you need to convey is that Whistler is making a ton of money using assets and investments normally lying idle in summer.

    Once your hill figure$ out there'$ MONEY to be made, they will have ear$ for you.

    Jim

    --Tod

    "I don't pretend to understand Brannigan's law; I merely enforce it."

  14. #14
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    Someone posted that Intrawest (owner of Whistler & Mammoth, amongst others) was building out Mammoth based on their success at Whistler, correct? Anyone have any more data on this, as I imagine it's going to be a very good selling point to see such business expanding in NorCal, given that market's proximity/similarity to SoCal.
    --Tod

    "I don't pretend to understand Brannigan's law; I merely enforce it."

  15. #15
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    contact Whistler

    the bike park main guy is also in charge of the US bike park expansion. Jim

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