Marzocchi "Oh how the mighty "M" has fallen"- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    Marzocchi "Oh how the mighty "M" has fallen"

    wow, what a negative review

    http://www.azfreeride.com/?q=node/1422


    2008 Marzocchi 888 RC3 Long Term Review
    Submitted by sixsixtysix on July 7, 2008 - 9:07am.

    For years, the name Marzocchi has been synonymous with bomb proof suspension products. Building arguably the heaviest duty forks on the downhill market with such beast's as the 9lb + Monster T and more recently the 888, has earned Marzocchi a reputation in the industry as the go to company for trouble free performance with the small penalty of heavier weights.

    For the past 3 years (2004-2007) Marzocchi has been building the 888 on a very similar chassis of 35mm stanchions mated with the evolution of the R damping system (R, RC, RC2X and now RC3). 2008 marks the first year that the chassis of the 888 has been redesigned and made even beefier. It also marks the first year that Marzocchi has moved its product manufacturing to Taiwan via SR Sun Tour and has essentially created a product that delivers Italian performance with Chinese quality.

    Chassis:
    For 2008 Marzocchi has beefed up their chassis on just about every fork in their lineup. The 888 moves from 35mm stanchions to a beefy 38mm and the lowers have been completely redesigned as well. The first thing you notice is the new seemingly huge "M" arch. The arch was a common point of failure for the older 888's and from the looks of it, Marzocchi set out to rectify the situation by making the arch nearly twice as thick as the previous generation 888.

    Also you will notice that the fork will only work with 8" brakes with its new built in post mount design, doing away for the need of brake adapters. The crowns on the new 888 chassis aren't flat like the 06-07 models and they aren't riser's like the 04-05, but rather somewhere in between. The fork doesn't feel tall in the slightest bit and the all important measurement of the axle to crown falls in at 567mm.

    The apparent downside to the new chassis seems to be tolerances and general manufacturing issues related to Marzocchi's move in production to SR Sun Tour. There have been a large amount's of reports involving žslopÓ in the lower bushings which cause's the lowers to have fore and aft žplayÓ on the stanchions. Many rider's have been given replacement lowers, but now Marzocchi insists that the extra žplayÓ is intentional but it seems like a likely explanation rather than having to warranty every 888 and 66 shipped in 2008 so far. On my 2008 888 RC3, no play has been noticed, either when riding or by doing the standing test of holding the front brake and rocking the bike forward and back.

    The one major downside I have experienced with the new chassis is how thin the material of the lowers actually is. On the 3rd day of riding this brand new 888 I managed to snag a rock sticking out from the side of the trail. Not hard enough to throw me from the bike, and barely enough to put a small gouge in the new pretty white lowers but apparently hard enough to dent the lower right leg and push the bushing into the inner chamber which then prevented the stanchion from sliding past the point of the dent. With less than 50 miles on the fork, the lowers already needed to be replaced, a costly $200 "oops". Marzocchi was happy to send me out new lowers for the money and even offered me the choice of Black or White, of which I chose black to help me feel like I had not just made a $1200 mistake in order to župgradeÓ to the 2008 888 RC3 by selling my tried and tested 2006 888 RC2X. Its black with chrome stickers now, its just like a 2006 right? Right?

    Spring and Damping:
    For 2008 Marzocchi introduced the žRC3Ó damping system, the next evolution in its R series of dampers. On the 2006-2007 RC2X model's, the forks contained both the RC2 cartridge as well as an additional X cartridge to provide low speed compression adjustment independently. While these 2 separate adjustments provided endless levels of tuning ability, it sometimes proved tricky to get both of them tuned together and working in tandem. You could either have the fork ramping up too quickly in the initial stroke, or to soft in the initial stroke and too stiff at the end of stroke and getting the fork to feel žbalancedÓ was more of an art rather than a science. The RC3 damping system in the 2008 888 and 66 provide both high and low speed compression adjustments together on one knob at the bottom of the left leg which gives this fork an incredible feeling of balance throughout its stroke.

    Other adjustments are a žVirtual Oil LevelÓ adjustment on the left leg which allows the rider to shrink or expand the air chamber in the fork leg which in essence gives the same results as adding of subtracting oil from the leg, which as most know is a old tuning trick on Marzocchi forks. Also atop the left leg is the rebound adjustment providing 24 clicks of adjustability. On the right leg all you will find is a žMechanical PreloadÓ knob which just adjusts the preload on the steel spring that is present in the right leg.

    This brings up an interesting point, for the first time in a 888, the left leg contains only the damper and the right leg contains only a spring where previous models contained both in both legs. Also of note is the amount of oil the new 888 uses, a whopping 325cc's per leg over the RC2X's 220cc's. At this rate, I have considered taking the new fork to Jiffy Lube to get its oil changed rather than buying the 2 quart's of Golden Spectro needed to do an oil change. (kidding)

    Quality:
    The elephant in the room this year for Marzocchi is quality and unfortunately we have fallen victim to the cheap manufacturing of the new product line also. Right off the bat on the fork's inaugural ride, the main compression nut holding the right leg on came loose causing the fork to dump all 320cc's of oil on the ground. Marzocchi insisted that it was probably just over looked at that factory and that tightening the nut and refilling with oil would solve the problem. This was unfortunately not the case as the rod which that nut attaches too had actually cracked also. These were costly repairs right out of the box as Marzocchi would only do work on the fork as crash replacement, and not under warranty. So much for that "3 year" warranty sticker on the back of the lowers huh?

    The next major issue which I mentioned above was the lowers. A seemingly innocent impact which caused a scratch I would not have thought twice about on previous 888's did in fact cause the bushings to push into the inner chamber and to interfere with the stanchions. Again, no warranty from Marzocchi, but $200 out of pocket for new lowers. Once the new lowers arrived, all was well for about 6 weeks until the right side seal started gushing oil like a harpooned whale. Upon asking a Marzocchi service tech how brand new seals could completely fail in a 6 week period, the answer was a disappointing žThey were probably installed upside downÓ. Sure enough, the seal's were installed upside down from the factory. They did this time offer to warranty the problem, but 4-6 weeks of down time for a seal swap just isn't worth it when $20 for new seals fixes the problem.

    Performance:
    The new RC3 dampening system brings performance on par with the Works 888 RC2X it replaced. The fork is extremely lively and will plow over just about anything in the trail with little or no problem. There have been a few instances where impacting a square edge hit will produce a sharp spike in the fork and a very unpleasant "Clank" but for the most part it rides very well through extremely rocky terrain. There is a hint of brake dive that was not present in previous 888's, or if it was was correctable via the compression adjustment. With the RC3 you loose the ability to tune the high and low speed compression independently, so by trying to eliminate break dive, you are also effecting the forks end of stroke performance and while break dive is minimal, it is noticeable.

    Overall:
    Honestly, the 2008 888 RC3 is a fork I love to hate, when it works, it works, but the amount of problems with this fork has left a very bitter taste in my mouth for Marzocchi in general, both with their products and their service. As anyone who rides with me can attest to, it has become somewhat of a ride ritual to joke about what is going to break on the fork next. With the history I have had with this fork just in the last 5 months, I honestly wouldn't be surprised if it just spontaneously combusted at some point and started shooting flames from it. Its that bad. Oh how the mighty "M" has fallen. My advice, for 2008 look someplace else for your suspension needs.

  2. #2
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    Sounds like an "I rode it for 1 day and it sucks" review. Well I rode one for a day and it worked fine. Still wont buy one IMO though...
    I've already taken the trophy, banged Miss America, and gone to Disney Land. You guys ain't gettin shit!

  3. #3
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    2006 was the best year for the 888....

  4. #4
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    My '06 RC2X has been one of the best buys I ever made. The thing has been bulletproof..
    People wait for me on the way up. I wait for them on the way down.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by RideRMB
    Sounds like an "I rode it for 1 day and it sucks" review.
    The review makes it very clear that the fork has been ridden for more than a day.
    When under pressure, your level of performance will sink to your level of preparation.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by RideRMB
    Sounds like an "I rode it for 1 day and it sucks" review. Well I rode one for a day and it worked fine. Still wont buy one IMO though...

    Reading comprehension isn't your strong suit eh?








    This article comes as no surprise. Marz needs to pay those little Taiwanese kids a little more

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by ban
    2006 was the best year for the 888....
    Agree.... my bro has one that is still going strong.
    Bikeless Rider

  8. #8
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    Good review. It's sad to hear that it's so poor, but sixsixtysix is a decently reliable source for information.

    I wonder what Tom will think when he comes back from hiatus and sees what's written.

    Additionally, Zoke says a lot of stuff on the forum about how they're taking care of their customers being inconvenienced, now even paying for return shipping. The reality for those who don't have public recourse by being members of mtbr is they get nothing. I've heard of a case back at home, and it's becoming increasingly likely that if you're not complaining on mtbr, you're not going to be taken care of.

    PR and damage control, nothing more.

  9. #9
    check your six
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    I have actually followed sixsixtysix's problems with his fork from the beginning. He has posted here on MTBR numerous times. From the timeframe of his posts compared to his problems, I assure you he rode this fork for more than one ride. I also completely agree with him on the latest quality of products offered from Zoke. I rock an 07' 888 RC2X and an 07' 66 RC2X. I have had many problems with the 888, but none with the 66 (knock on wood).

    I can also assure you all that these are the last products I will purchase from Zoke. They have definately "fallen" and I see no signs of regaining the throne..... Sad to say....
    "We can always find excuses if we want to find them, but if we really want to do something, we have to just go."

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by sodak06
    I have actually followed sixsixtysix's problems with his fork from the beginning. He has posted here on MTBR numerous times. From the timeframe of his posts compared to his problems, I assure you he rode this fork for more than one ride. I also completely agree with him on the latest quality of products offered from Zoke. I rock an 07' 888 RC2X and an 07' 66 RC2X. I have had many problems with the 888, but none with the 66 (knock on wood).

    I can also assure you all that these are the last products I will purchase from Zoke. They have definately "fallen" and I see no signs of regaining the throne..... Sad to say....
    Times have changed it seems. My 2002 80mm Zoke has been an amazingly reliable fork. I don't freeride on it obviously, but it has gotten a lot of use over the years.
    When under pressure, your level of performance will sink to your level of preparation.

  11. #11
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    the 4 boxxers i have owned have all been great forks compared to the 2 marzocchi forks I used back in the day.

    My new fork for 2009- Pushed 2006 Boxxer team or a new 2009 boxxer

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by rkj__
    Times have changed it seems. My 2002 80mm Zoke has been an amazingly reliable fork. I don't freeride on it obviously, but it has gotten a lot of use over the years.
    Started with a Z3 long travel
    -Mx Pro ETA 2003 (just sold in perfect shape and original seals)
    -2001 X-Fly 100 used (bought in 2006), dual air, dual coil. Brought over to Germany for a future project. Sticky at first because it wasn't even broken in. Offers incredible tuning options, springs, and bottom out options. Light...
    -2006 AM1: Garbage performance, flexy. Sold after less than 12 rides and money used to buy a used:
    -2006 Z1 Light used. I brought it to Germany with me. One of the best, in my opinion.
    -2007 Z1 RC2 for the gf. Risking her safety wasn't a question.

    Incidentally, Tom from Zoke blasted back at me telling me that if I hate Zoke so much, I should sell all my old Zokes and go to another company. How ludicrous! I love those forks and hate the people behind them. The crap they make now has nothing to do with how great their stuff was then. To his dismay, I won't sell them off.

  13. #13
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    Yup, that just puts an official stamp on what I've been hearing all season. The new Marzocchi stuff isn't up to par with the products of old, and the word from the trail both here and in the BC forum I frequent supports it. I'm glad I got an '07 888 RC2X, when I'm in the market for a high quality FR/DH fork in the future I'll be looking around a lot more (it used to be a Marz slam dunk), and there will be one less option for me.

  14. #14
    sixsixtysix
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    Yes, I wrote the review, and honestly took as objective as an approach to it as I do all reviews. I don't think that anything I wrote was unwarranted considering how many problems this fork has had, it could have been a lot more negative.

    The fork was purchased brand new in January 08 at full retail cost, so don't think I get some free swag to test out and then kiss the manufacturer's ass, all the products I ride, I pay for so that reviews are as neutral as if they were used by you or anybody else.

    The fork has been ridden on average of 3-5 times a week every week since I bought it and probably has close to 700-800 miles on it. Its unfortunate, but it's been nothing but problems since day one. I will say that it feels good when it actually works, its just the keeping it in one piece that's been the issue. It is definitely a SR Suntour product in those regards.

    I have been riding Zoke products for years and loved my 06 888RC2X to the point I kick myself everyday for selling it. It was the best DH fork Zoke has ever made. The 08 stuff just doesn't live up to the tradition of quality and performance that Marzocchi has established over the years.

    I won't get into details, because I don't own their other 08 forks, but plenty of my friends do, and they have all had problems, from 66's with blown seals, bad bushings, improperly installed cartridges to 55's with bad and incorrectly installed bushings and blown TST cartridges. The problems are rampant and well documented across the 08 lineup, just look in the suspension forum.

    Also, their level of customer service is taking a beating, and I really do feel for the U.S. service guys like Ronnie, Gideon and Mike, they are good guys who do go out of their way to hook people up as best they can, they are just getting their butts kicked this year with all the repairs coming in and the difficulty getting parts from Italy. It however does not excuse the fact that things should be repaired properly when they sit on the bench for 2 months waiting to get repaired.

    I have LITERALLY had one of my 3 Roco's in the shop all but 3 weeks of 2008. Read that again. At one point or another, one of my 3 Roco's has been at Marzocchi getting repaired for all but 3 weeks out of the entire year to date. In fact, there is one there now, which has been there for 6 weeks waiting for parts. They come back, they are "repaired" and within a month or two, the same problem arises or something else blows on it. That to me is inexcusable for the amount of lost riding time and the money spent on the products.

    So yes, in my eyes, the "Mighty M" has fallen from grace, and IMO are heading down the same slippery slope Manitou did in 2005-2006 before needing to be rescued by Hayes. Cheap Taiwanese manufacturing + overloaded customer service = bad customer satifaction. They need to start designing the same solid products they did before SR Suntour took over manufacturing and stand by their products in any way possible if they are to save their reputation.

  15. #15
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    I ride with SixSixtySix quite often.
    I've seen first hand how [email protected] this fork is.

    Its a shame, 'cause he was really stoked to get it and raved about it for the first week...until it exploded the first time.
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    I think he was born around the time of the Chernobyl fallout which would explain a lot.

  16. #16
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    I just returned from whistler, and my buddy's new 66 on his SX Trail took a dump on him, and cost him $270 to get fixed while we were there.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by sixsixtysix
    I have LITERALLY had one of my 3 Roco's in the shop all but 3 weeks of 2008....
    Were those air or coil Rocos? and what happened to each?

    P

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by sixsixtysix
    Also, their level of customer service is taking a beating, and I really do feel for the U.S. service guys like Ronnie, Gideon and Mike, they are good guys who do go out of their way to hook people up as best they can, they are just getting their butts kicked this year with all the repairs coming in and the difficulty getting parts from Italy. It however does not excuse the fact that things should be repaired properly when they sit on the bench for 2 months waiting to get repaired.

    I have LITERALLY had one of my 3 Roco's in the shop all but 3 weeks of 2008. Read that again. At one point or another, one of my 3 Roco's has been at Marzocchi getting repaired for all but 3 weeks out of the entire year to date. In fact, there is one there now, which has been there for 6 weeks waiting for parts. They come back, they are "repaired" and within a month or two, the same problem arises or something else blows on it. That to me is inexcusable for the amount of lost riding time and the money spent on the products.
    A greater and more accurate part of the parts problem they have is not that they aren't available, because frequently the EU distributors have them. The problem is Zoke USA won't order parts more than a few times a year. Within the EU, open commerce from Italy to whatever country is like sending stuff from another state, making things much easier.

    I know the tech guys are getting beaten up and unfortunately, I think part of the problem is the bad face sales is putting on it with the consumer. It has been an issue for years, even with the new blood in sales, the attitude is the same.

  19. #19
    sixsixtysix
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.P
    Were those air or coil Rocos? and what happened to each?

    P

    2 TST coil's ( I actually had to buy a spare TST so I could keep riding...) and 1 Roco R Air.

    The TST's have both blown seals, and one lost its rebound.

    The Air R blew its seal's, got repaired, came back and 3 weeks later blew its rebound, got repaired came back and blew the seals again... It has since been decommissioned for a Fox RP23.

  20. #20
    sixsixtysix
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    A greater and more accurate part of the parts problem they have is not that they aren't available, because frequently the EU distributors have them. The problem is Zoke USA won't order parts more than a few times a year. Within the EU, open commerce from Italy to whatever country is like sending stuff from another state, making things much easier.

    I know the tech guys are getting beaten up and unfortunately, I think part of the problem is the bad face sales is putting on it with the consumer. It has been an issue for years, even with the new blood in sales, the attitude is the same.

    I totally agree, and I don't want this to turn into a bash on Zoke fest, but Tom hasn't done much on here to make the bad face of sales any better with the "I'll hook you up if I feel like it" crap.

    They need to be up front with their customers. Would it kill them to maybe give a customer a call if a product is going to take 2 months to repair so that we aren't just sitting waiting and wondering if it's ever going to get fixed, mean while you lose all your riding time.

    I am fortunate to live in a area where I can ride year round, so its not as bad as someone who maybe gets 4-5 months of good weather to ride in and then loses 2 months of it because a product fails and takes forever to get repaired.

  21. #21
    lmx
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    i blew my 888 ata wc 2008 after 10 days of riding,my fellow teammate broke it twice after not more than 8 days of ridding
    my problem was an undersized o ring problem in between ata and par chamber and my friends problem well he lost a third of it's travel sent it back,got it back and the same problem happened again the week after....among our race sceen almost everybody racing the ata wc had an issue....well done!
    ouin! pas pire.

  22. #22
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    In the last 8 months or so...

    Every Zoke product that has come throught our shop has had some defect or another...From 0 oil in on leg of a fork, bad internals in a Roco, to bad or improperly installed seals. This is both after market to OEM stuff. I am not trying to pile on so much as add to the validity of...There is a problem.
    "At that point man, your just riding your bike."


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    Pedalshop

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    loose axle problem for 66 + slop in bushings. lowers were replaced on warranty with two week turnaround time. Can't complain about that, I've had two great experiences with marz CS and two terrible experiences in regards to my 66. Now if I can just get a lighter spring I'll be set. I'm finally beginning to like my 66 and even, gasp, considering not selling it the second I have the money to buy a different fork.

    The damper feels pretty damn good. Say what you want about shimstacks vs cart. the new RC3 feels pretty amazing.

  24. #24
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    Great review. I think its better to be objective about your bike parts than be fanboy about a company. I ride a 2007 888 SL ATA and so far its been flawless, however, I've heard sketchy things about 2008's. Don't play off Marzocchi so soon though, moving production to a different part of the world involves a lot of coordination.
    Northstar 2008 Riding Crew

  25. #25
    sixsixtysix
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raptordude
    Great review. I think its better to be objective about your bike parts than be fanboy about a company. I ride a 2007 888 SL ATA and so far its been flawless, however, I've heard sketchy things about 2008's. Don't play off Marzocchi so soon though, moving production to a different part of the world involves a lot of coordination.

    I totally agree. There is no point to being a fanboy in the bike world, if somebody makes a better product, then ride it.

    I also understand that moving the production to Taiwan is a huge move for any company but Rock Shox manages to pull it off, and so do a slew of other companies. I am more or less disappointed that Marzocchi customers got to pay to be beta testers for a new manufacturer in 2008.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by sixsixtysix
    I totally agree. There is no point to being a fanboy in the bike world, if somebody makes a better product, then ride it.

    I also understand that moving the production to Taiwan is a huge move for any company but Rock Shox manages to pull it off, and so do a slew of other companies. I am more or less disappointed that Marzocchi customers got to pay to be beta testers for a new manufacturer in 2008.
    666,

    The fanboyism and the "brand culture" is what has made this industry deteriorate so far. Making fashionable clothing, making it "cool" to own a brand with a fluffy fox sticker on it, or porn stars holding forks made people join the team behind these companies.

    If you remember, I encountered endless crap when I discovered my 36 was delivered without oil and had sealing problems and other nonsense. Fanboys and others of suspect origin came out of the woodwork. There are plenty of other companies that can do no wrong, even when they are really wrong, all because the fan base is so strong. In my opinion, a successful marketing formula that people don't realize they are a part of.

    The industry has deteriorated enough that one can't be loyal anymore. There should be something of a paying for performance theory and I believe the customers are letting the companies get away with too much. In your case, I'm not faulting you, because you're obviously a decent guy because I would have alerted the BBB for a lemon complaint on the Rocos. The BBB would have gotten results. I urge other people dissatisfied with Zoke USA to do the same because results would be seen with numbers.

    At the least, Tom should be ordering parts to bail themselves out of trouble. He claims two week turnarounds, while local shops are stating eight because of lack of parts. Stop being so cheap and make an order. Don't wait for your quarterly order.

  27. #27
    NEWBIE WAN KENOBI
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    ive owned couple of zoke forks

    06 all mountain sl 1 = CRAP
    05 66 rc = the best one ive ever ridden.
    pretty much 04 -07 are best ones and i wont buy anything after that.

    i just hope that they get to fix all the issues by next year or the year after so they can get their old reputation back. and i cant believe that zokes moved their production to SR suntour ( Thats some wallmart bs ), that's just horrible !
    DO YOU BUTT QUEEF ?

  28. #28
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    wow, i had a 2005 all mtn 2 or something in that range on my giant pistol and it was great. it handled the climbing and the blacks at N*. now i have i 2006 super T and it works fine, has good small bump absorbance, and is really plush. i havent had a single problem with it, even though ti isnt yur guys 40s or boxxer wc's, it is good enough. bad to hear this about a once bombproof company.
    HARDTAIL PRIDE- 09 Kona Five-0

  29. #29
    sixsixtysix
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    666,

    The fanboyism and the "brand culture" is what has made this industry deteriorate so far. Making fashionable clothing, making it "cool" to own a brand with a fluffy fox sticker on it, or porn stars holding forks made people join the team behind these companies.

    If you remember, I encountered endless crap when I discovered my 36 was delivered without oil and had sealing problems and other nonsense. Fanboys and others of suspect origin came out of the woodwork. There are plenty of other companies that can do no wrong, even when they are really wrong, all because the fan base is so strong. In my opinion, a successful marketing formula that people don't realize they are a part of.

    The industry has deteriorated enough that one can't be loyal anymore. There should be something of a paying for performance theory and I believe the customers are letting the companies get away with too much. In your case, I'm not faulting you, because you're obviously a decent guy because I would have alerted the BBB for a lemon complaint on the Rocos. The BBB would have gotten results. I urge other people dissatisfied with Zoke USA to do the same because results would be seen with numbers.

    At the least, Tom should be ordering parts to bail themselves out of trouble. He claims two week turnarounds, while local shops are stating eight because of lack of parts. Stop being so cheap and make an order. Don't wait for your quarterly order.
    I am totally on the same page as you, I have always been somewhat "anti-brand" because I work in advertising and know how easy it is to trick the sheep into following the herd.

    And for those of you who you don't believe that it happens to everyone, just watch this:
    <object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/ZyQjr1YL0zg&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/ZyQjr1YL0zg&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

    I have always had a "make your own" approach to things and believe many people follow things blindly just to fit in rather than doing their own thing. The same holds true with the MTB industry, even though it is no where near the scale of other sports like BMX and Skateboarding, people blindly jump onto new things without any experience with them, or real world testing.

    I knew I shouldn't have bought a first year product, and even knew I shouldn't have bought a first year Taiwan fork but I did, and I deal with it. I also feel its everyone's right to know what they are getting into before laying down $1100 on a product that may not live up to its expectations.

    As for the BBB, its not worth my time. I figure I can make more of a stand by letting people read the reviews honestly and openly and then making their own decision. My decision has been made, I will not be riding Zoke until they get it straight, until then, I am up in the air as to where my dollars for 09 will fall.

    As for the quarterly parts deal, I talked to Mike last week about my shock that is sitting there and he basically told me that Ronnie was just in Italy and actually tried to bring parts back so they could finish the repairs that were waiting, but that Italian corporate wouldn't let him and said they had to wait for their shipment. So I don't put the blame on the U.S guys (other than maybe some bad communication and empty promises) but their Italian parent company, their employers are the ones responsible, and to them its all about dollars, and nothing more. Just one more company which has fallen victim to the capitalistic greed of a global economy.

  30. #30
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    for some reason i feel sorry for marzocchi, however they did drop the quality for price by moving to tiwan (how ever you spell it) im not sure whether i would go back to marzocchi after riding my boxxer's for a few month's. i hope they take this on board on change their mind and go back to qulity.

    i hope im not the only one who thinks this
    Quote Originally Posted by [Orge
    ]
    This problem could quite simply be solved if people would stop buying Konas.

  31. #31
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    I really wanted to stand by Marzo this year, and hoped beyond hope that my 66 RC3 would be immune from all the problems plaguing Marzocchi.

    After calling tech support about suspect bushings in my fork, I was told that it's just fine, and that much finger-pinching slop is normal . Now, only 4 lift-days into the season I have developed a stupid amount of slop and a knock -- Even when it sagged several inches into the travel.
    I am also afraid to remove my 20mm since it's became almost too hard to click. I don't think there is one high end Zoke to come out of the shop here that has been issue free this year.

    The last thing I really want is to have to ship the thing off and not see it again until the hill closes for the year...

    I'm lucky that I have a Domain 318 that I can use if(when) my 66 craps out. Funny how Rockshox can make a fork with zero slop at full extension.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by ban
    2006 was the best year for the 888....
    Cool....that's the one I have and I plan on keeping it for a good, long while

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karupshun
    I really wanted to stand by Marzo this year, and hoped beyond hope that my 66 RC3 would be immune from all the problems plaguing Marzocchi.

    After calling tech support about suspect bushings in my fork, I was told that it's just fine, and that much finger-pinching slop is normal . Now, only 4 lift-days into the season I have developed a stupid amount of slop and a knock -- Even when it sagged several inches into the travel.
    I am also afraid to remove my 20mm since it's became almost too hard to click. I don't think there is one high end Zoke to come out of the shop here that has been issue free this year.

    The last thing I really want is to have to ship the thing off and not see it again until the hill closes for the year...

    I'm lucky that I have a Domain 318 that I can use if(when) my 66 craps out. Funny how Rockshox can make a fork with zero slop at full extension.

    Do you notice the slop when just grabbing the fork lowers with both hands and flexing or do you have to hold the front brake and rock the fork to get a knock?

    Mine seems pretty tight by hand, but when I rock it, there seems to be a lot more movement.

    Strange thing is that I feel no slop of ANY kind AT ALL when on the trail. Feels tight as steel balls.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by YoPawn
    Do you notice the slop when just grabbing the fork lowers with both hands and flexing or do you have to hold the front brake and rock the fork to get a knock?

    Mine seems pretty tight by hand, but when I rock it, there seems to be a lot more movement.

    Strange thing is that I feel no slop of ANY kind AT ALL when on the trail. Feels tight as steel balls.

    With the bike flipped I can get a good amount of play/flex without much effort, and the knock/clunk manifests itself when I am riding more and more. I know it's nothing loose in my headset or brakes.

    As said earlier I also can get a significant amount of movement when the fork is compressed into travel
    I love the dampening on the fork and it rides great, but with this much play (even if Marzo says it's fine ) is something that has been engineered out of competitors offerings.

    I likes my 'zocchi and just want it to be as good as it's supposed to be

  35. #35
    sixsixtysix
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karupshun
    I love the dampening on the fork and it rides great, but with this much play (even if Marzo says it's fine ) is something that has been engineered out of competitors offerings.

    Yes! But the "slop" has been engineered INTO the 2008 Zoke lineup....

    http://marzocchi.com/Template/detail...d1LGRjjhwwr%23

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by sixsixtysix
    Yes! But the "slop" has been engineered INTO the 2008 Zoke lineup....

    https://marzocchi.com/Template/detai...d1LGRjjhwwr%23



    Creative Writing 101

  37. #37
    sixsixtysix
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karupshun



    Creative Writing 101

    LOL, thats great

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karupshun



    Creative Writing 101
    Dawg what are you talking about...butter right out of the box even in 2008.............
    Northstar 2008 Riding Crew

  39. #39
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    don't do it

    Zokeyheads: get on top of this thread already and understand when you charge the same as fox you gotta provide the same quality and service as fox or else get your ass handed to you and get the good name of your brand covered in your own sh*t!

    Who own's marzocchi? Somebody in Italy, probably pretty easy to find out who they are.

    Let's send him a link to this thread, that should do the trick and wake up Zoke usa.

    I don't want a world where my only choices are fox and rockshox. Manitou is not a choice at the moment. Don't let us down, Marzians!!!

    I never apologize. I'm sorry, but that's just the way I am.

  40. #40
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    Here is a link to a run in I had with Brian Peterson:

    http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.ph...16#post2142916

    Note: he is no longer with Zoke, but in this post, he posted the name of his superior, leaving people free to reach him.

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by dusthuffer
    Zokeyheads: get on top of this thread already and understand when you charge the same as fox you gotta provide the same quality and service as fox or else get your ass handed to you and get the good name of your brand covered in your own sh*t!

    Who own's marzocchi? Somebody in Italy, probably pretty easy to find out who they are.

    Let's send him a link to this thread, that should do the trick and wake up Zoke usa.

    I don't want a world where my only choices are fox and rockshox. Manitou is not a choice at the moment. Don't let us down, Marzians!!!
    hopefully the manitou statement wont be true for too long. for 09' they switched production to the united states again and are coming on strong. the new dorado should be something to look forward to. it sounds to me like marzocchi and manitou are doing a switch-a-roo with both production and image

  42. #42
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    It hear the new Dorado moves around in a big water bath - and it's pretty slippery too


    I never apologize. I'm sorry, but that's just the way I am.

  43. #43
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    66 ATA (bushings+axle)

    Quote Originally Posted by William42
    loose axle problem for 66 + slop in bushings.

    You can say that again.
    Same happened to my 66ATA.
    First bushing problems and in parallel the axle problem.
    Here is a story for you.
    I stood in the shop while the local retailer changed ..drumrolll.....
    NOT 1..NOT 2....NOT 3...but 4 lowers, and all had bushing play.
    How is that for quality
    He took all of his spare lowers he had on stock and all where faulty.
    Great.
    So it was a 1 week wait for new lowers (OK Iam from the EU).
    M said "Good lowers mister, checked twice mister, specially just for you mister"
    OK so the new lowers have very little discern-able play.
    If M states that its SUPPOSED to be there... OK.let it be.
    If M states that its ENGINEERED into them... OK.let it be.

    And now upon closer inspection before my first ride with the new fork I noticed that the hub seems to have play.
    Strange.
    When I took the wheel of the TOTEM it seamed to be fine.
    Of course..the hub had and has NO play.
    But the axle assembly surely isn't OK.
    Turn and twist the axle as much as you want ..the hub just doesnt stay put.
    Ah the joys of playing with new equipment.


    P.S.
    Thank god I have 2 bikes, since my FREE isnt moving much lattely.
    P.P.
    Please please please FOX, make a 140-180 TALAS soon

    God is my wittnes...I would be over it like white on rice in a heartbeat.

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by RideRMB
    Sounds like an "I rode it for 1 day and it sucks" review. Well I rode one for a day and it worked fine. Still wont buy one IMO though...
    Well you obviously didn't read it very well then did you.
    He refers several times to having this fork for more than a day.

    "On the 3rd day of riding this brand new 888 I managed to..."

    If he managed to do all that in 1 day, then the Fork is definitely a pile of crap!!

  45. #45
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    I'll be the first to say i've had problems with my fork, anybody who has followed my reviews etc can vouch for that, but it seems like this little hatefest is a little much. Every company has hiccups in their high end stuff. My friend has had to send back his argyle something in excess of 5 times now - and I know at least three of those times they've given him a brand new fork. He rides urban, he's pretty good, but he sure as hell doesn't go bigger then alot of dudes, and he weighs a buck 50. Anybody ever heard of the totem 2 step? it was around for awhile, and they they pulled it from the market because it didn't work. "ooh, thats just good policy - if you're product doesn't work, don't sell it!" lyric 2 step anybody? I'm pretty sure thats still on the market. Luckily RS didn't use us to guinea their new lineups ever since SRAM took over. Its not like they've ever had a problem so bad that they had to replace it with a cheaper product and screw people out of lots of money at the consumers cost.

    But in all seriousness, I've never heard of Fox having trouble with their high end stuff. especially not their lower thickness. I have never not all the time heard about people destroying their 40's lowers. talas? etc etc. I wont even bother with manitou, because its well established that everything they've ever done doesn't work - I wont bother with talking about how much i love my evolver, how helpful the guys there are, etc.

    Every company seems to have problems. If these companies were turning out hundreds of thousands or even millions of forks every year, I'd expect production to be a whole hell of alot higher. But for the most part, what I've seen in the bike industry consumers want alot for a little. So companies try and do that in any way they can.

    Don't get me wrong - I'm not a marz fanboy who will defend their product to the death. My bike came stock with a roco tst and a 66 rc3. I have already switched out the tst, and was planning on losing the rc3 the second I got it. I ended up not doing that, and I'm liking the fork more and more every ride. I will probably sell it with the bike when I eventually switch over to a canfield jedi because it has a 1.5 steerer.

    Anyway, I wouldn't say marz is suddenly "wayyy worse" then everybody - performance wise, they're in the same boat, and their reliability has fallen, granted, but its now about the same level as every other suspension company out there in the bike industry.

  46. #46
    sixsixtysix
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    Quote Originally Posted by William42
    I'll be the first to say i've had problems with my fork, anybody who has followed my reviews etc can vouch for that, but it seems like this little hatefest is a little much. Every company has hiccups in their high end stuff. My friend has had to send back his argyle something in excess of 5 times now - and I know at least three of those times they've given him a brand new fork. He rides urban, he's pretty good, but he sure as hell doesn't go bigger then alot of dudes, and he weighs a buck 50. Anybody ever heard of the totem 2 step? it was around for awhile, and they they pulled it from the market because it didn't work. "ooh, thats just good policy - if you're product doesn't work, don't sell it!" lyric 2 step anybody? I'm pretty sure thats still on the market. Luckily RS didn't use us to guinea their new lineups ever since SRAM took over. Its not like they've ever had a problem so bad that they had to replace it with a cheaper product and screw people out of lots of money at the consumers cost.

    But in all seriousness, I've never heard of Fox having trouble with their high end stuff. especially not their lower thickness. I have never not all the time heard about people destroying their 40's lowers. talas? etc etc. I wont even bother with manitou, because its well established that everything they've ever done doesn't work - I wont bother with talking about how much i love my evolver, how helpful the guys there are, etc.

    Every company seems to have problems. If these companies were turning out hundreds of thousands or even millions of forks every year, I'd expect production to be a whole hell of alot higher. But for the most part, what I've seen in the bike industry consumers want alot for a little. So companies try and do that in any way they can.

    Don't get me wrong - I'm not a marz fanboy who will defend their product to the death. My bike came stock with a roco tst and a 66 rc3. I have already switched out the tst, and was planning on losing the rc3 the second I got it. I ended up not doing that, and I'm liking the fork more and more every ride. I will probably sell it with the bike when I eventually switch over to a canfield jedi because it has a 1.5 steerer.

    Anyway, I wouldn't say marz is suddenly "wayyy worse" then everybody - performance wise, they're in the same boat, and their reliability has fallen, granted, but its now about the same level as every other suspension company out there in the bike industry.
    Yes, all fork manufacturers have problems, hence the lack of a truly SOLID DH fork on the market right now. It seems that none of them work, or they are designed as FRO forks and can't handle day to day use. The big difference is that Rock Shox and Fox will replace the fork if they know its a engineering problem, Marzocchi on the other hand just comes up with some BS that it was supposed to be like that.

    This topic isn't a hate fest at all, but rather a clear confirmation that the failure rate on the 2008 Marzocchi lineup has got to be at or above 30% of the total product sold, and from the sounds of a lot of the people who work and deal with shops, it sounds like it could be even higher. I know probably 70-80% of the 2008 product sold through my LBS has been defective. So much so, that you are seeing fewer and fewer Zoke's on a mountain that just last year was dominated by them. If Marzocchi wanted to do the right thing at this point, they need to "man up" and admit their faults and work with customers to fix them.

  47. #47
    GRAVITY IS GOOD
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    Quote Originally Posted by dusthuffer
    It hear the new Dorado moves around in a big water bath - and it's pretty slippery too

    Yeah, but it has a flabby stomach and a horse face!

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by William42
    I'll be the first to say i've had problems with my fork, anybody who has followed my reviews etc can vouch for that, but it seems like this little hatefest is a little much. Every company has hiccups in their high end stuff. My friend has had to send back his argyle something in excess of 5 times now - and I know at least three of those times they've given him a brand new fork. He rides urban, he's pretty good, but he sure as hell doesn't go bigger then alot of dudes, and he weighs a buck 50. Anybody ever heard of the totem 2 step? it was around for awhile, and they they pulled it from the market because it didn't work. "ooh, thats just good policy - if you're product doesn't work, don't sell it!" lyric 2 step anybody? I'm pretty sure thats still on the market. Luckily RS didn't use us to guinea their new lineups ever since SRAM took over. Its not like they've ever had a problem so bad that they had to replace it with a cheaper product and screw people out of lots of money at the consumers cost.

    But in all seriousness, I've never heard of Fox having trouble with their high end stuff. especially not their lower thickness. I have never not all the time heard about people destroying their 40's lowers. talas? etc etc. I wont even bother with manitou, because its well established that everything they've ever done doesn't work - I wont bother with talking about how much i love my evolver, how helpful the guys there are, etc.

    Every company seems to have problems. If these companies were turning out hundreds of thousands or even millions of forks every year, I'd expect production to be a whole hell of alot higher. But for the most part, what I've seen in the bike industry consumers want alot for a little. So companies try and do that in any way they can.

    Don't get me wrong - I'm not a marz fanboy who will defend their product to the death. My bike came stock with a roco tst and a 66 rc3. I have already switched out the tst, and was planning on losing the rc3 the second I got it. I ended up not doing that, and I'm liking the fork more and more every ride. I will probably sell it with the bike when I eventually switch over to a canfield jedi because it has a 1.5 steerer.

    Anyway, I wouldn't say marz is suddenly "wayyy worse" then everybody - performance wise, they're in the same boat, and their reliability has fallen, granted, but its now about the same level as every other suspension company out there in the bike industry.
    I don't know where to start. First, this is the problem I spoke of earlier in that there's a "brand culture" that makes it cool to subscribe to a lifestyle made by a marketing guy in an office. Fox and Zoke are two such companies, selling everything from wallets and computer bags to apparel.

    The argument of RS is somewhat valid, as they have certainly had their problems, only a couple years after their quite triumphant return under the SRAM umbrella. Where RS and Zoke differ is that you're treated with utter respect with regard to RS problems. They go out of their way to make sure you're taken care of with as little downtime as possible. Zoke makes excuse after excuse, even going as far as to tell a customer that if they asked nicer, they would have given away the part on the house. I've had my own run ins with Zoke over the years, but not on warranty stuff. It was for stuff I wanted to buy from them. Tom is yet another name and face, but he's much the same as the rest who predated him. I believe they are taking strides but they only acknowledging the customer's problems, not understanding their problems and frustrations.

    Now Fox not having problems? That's a joke. They have had the broken dropouts, then creaking crowns, then comes the TALAS problems. In the case of my 36, as well as many others, they were delivered with little or no oil. Dry forks work great! You're talking about the lowers? The lowers have been reported on the forums as easily dentable. You also want to talk about tolerances? My axle was undersized, Fox said it was impossible, then a dealer swapped another in and saw the play disappear. Fox gave nothing but a hassle over it, the run around, then a botched return ticket after much fighting to get them to flip the bill for the return shipping. They insisted shipping would cost less than 15-20 USD, and I informed them it was closer to 3x the smaller figure because of increased costs, a different coast (the two furthest continental zones), and that I wouldn't send a fork back uninsured (I was actually told that I didn't need to insure or track it to save costs).

    As far as lower thickness, it was made clear to me, without revealing too much, that there is a strong possibility one of my problems was due to poor machining in the 36's lower tubes. In other words, a problem they have seen and knew what the symptoms were. Luckily, mine didn't have the problem.

    Marz is way worse than anyone out there. I can't say the rate I've seen at local shops is as high as 666's experience, but I've noted the problems with all the TST v1 owners by me, in the order of multiple returns each. As far as the new ones, perhaps a 33%=50% miss ratio, though I'm not really tracking so closely.

    This issue and the ire of the customers is not unjustified because of the actions of marzocchi in what should be seen as a crisis in their history.

    As far as the parts that Italy won't sell to them, that's definitely another story right there. Italy would freely sell to Zoke US's offices unless there's a piece of the story they're leaving out.

  49. #49
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    I'm deeply saddened about these quality assurance and customer service issues that are currently plaguing Marzocchi. The big M is my brand of choice when it comes to forks due to their close proximity to my home. I've owned an '05 130mm All Mountain 3, and '05 150mm Z1FR3; and my 3 bikes have a 170mm66 RC2x WORKS, 170mm 888RC WORKS, and 200mm 888R Works. Of these 5 forks, I only had problems with my 66RC2X as mine had flex between the stanchions and the lower legs due to bad bushings from the factory. It took me 3 visits with them until it got resolved and as been trouble free for 2 years now.

    Just recently, I got a frame with a 1.5 inch head tube and thought of getting the 66RC3. What swayed me from jumping on the RC3 were the reviews from this board so i just opted from having my trusty '05 170mm 888RC WORK'd.

    I guess I'm not gonna be selling any of my forks soon until Zoke gets these issues resolved.
    DH:Mountain Cycle Shockwave 9.5 w/ 888R
    FR:Marin Quake w/ 888RC
    AM:BMC Superstroke 01 w/ 66RC2X

  50. #50
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    I guess I should qualify that statement - sixsixtysix, i'm not attacking your review. I actually think its a great review and hits the nail on the head with everything - I can't remember a single thing that I think you got wrong or that you missed. One of the better bike part reviews i've ever read.

    No, whats getting to me is that suddenly marz is the worst company ever because they're, well, just like every other company. But because they're experiencing a downgrade in quality they're awful, where other companies that are experiencing an upgrade are great - this doesn't make sense to me when the net result is that their products are pretty similar.

    I agree marz CS needs work. Two of the worst CS experiences i've ever had, bike or non bike company related, were with marz CS. I've also had a couple pretty awesome marz CS experiences where they were really helpful, were really friendly and went the extra mile for me. It seems to be pretty hit and miss - although now that I know who to talk to it'll be easier.

    However, it seems like most people are over dramatizing marz problems. They're no different from every other company when it comes to QC, and like every company, they have some hit forks that are amazing, and some forks that are problem after problem after problem. Do you remember the name of rock shox 5 inch fork circa 04? I sure don't. I don't even know if they had one.

    I'm not defending them as perfect, i'm not even a "loyal marz fanboy follower" - hell I exchanged my marz shock for manitou of all things. But alot of the stuff in here seems to be along the lines of "oh marz is a terrible company now" when really they're just the same as everybody else - great damper, great forks when working, and not working all the time. Given the stuff people do on their bikes its impressive they work as well as they do

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    Here is a link to a run in I had with Brian Peterson:

    http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.ph...16#post2142916

    Note: he is no longer with Zoke, but in this post, he posted the name of his superior, leaving people free to reach him.
    Wow.. Take a random look in here almost 8 months after leaving Marz and a 2 year old post is brought back up... Funny stuff...

    BTW, the name I left on that post won't get you anywhere anymore... He left too...

    Edit: Even funnier... I saw 3 threads where you brought me up... And I bet there is more if I was to dig deeper. Man, I really got under your skin. It must be nice to be able to pick fights with industry people in a public forum and not have to worry about anybody calling your boss and trying to get you fired. BTW, you never did answer my question on how the function of a suspension fork is similar to an automatic transmission in a car...

    Brian
    Last edited by Brian Peterson; 07-10-2008 at 12:12 AM.

  52. #52
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    I got to thinking about the bushing play being worked into the design, and wondered exactly how much is normal. It's pretty easy to understand that some gap in tolerance for oil is a good thing (like the piston rings in a car)

    What's the tolerance 1/1000"? 3/1000" 1/100"?

    Is marzo saying in their FAQ that Rockshox & Fox bushing design are inherently flawed because they don't incorporate so much extra space for more oil like Marzo does?

    Will42 has a good point that this can't turn into a marzo hatefest, and thankfully it hasn't...but with so many similar complaints this thread has a real point

  53. #53
    sixsixtysix
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karupshun
    I got to thinking about the bushing play being worked into the design, and wondered exactly how much is normal. It's pretty easy to understand that some gap in tolerance for oil is a good thing (like the piston rings in a car)

    What's the tolerance 1/1000"? 3/1000" 1/100"?

    Is marzo saying in their FAQ that Rockshox & Fox bushing design are inherently flawed because they don't incorporate so much extra space for more oil like Marzo does?

    Will42 has a good point that this can't turn into a marzo hatefest, and thankfully it hasn't...but with so many similar complaints this thread has a real point

    I am wondering the same thing, because on a couple of the 66's I have seen and touched personally, there is a scary about of play in the lowers, and while most people say they don't notice it while riding, others have, including one of my friends that had more play in the right leg than the left which caused some fun twisting and flexing though rock gardens.

    What is funny is that you don't hear much, if anything about the 888's having bushing play, mine doesn't which is one of the things I can say isn't wrong with the fork. Even with 2 sets of lowers, no play. I haven't seen or read one instance of a 08 888 with the same slop as the 66, yet the lower's are "technically" the same, except for the axle and dropouts. So what's the difference between the two internally? Longer stanchions? More bushing overlap?

    I was just looking around SR SunTour's site, and their DuroLux20 looks strikingly similar to a new Zoke, similar casting, same brake cable mount, similar crowns. I am curious if Marzocchi actually designed the damper's or if it too is a SunTour design.

    I know from the pics of the 09 Zoke stuff that has been released, the new handlebar remote for the 44 is all SR SunTour.

  54. #54
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    I believe the damper cartridge on the 55R says SR Suntour on it... I don't know if that is a good or a bad thing!

  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by myarmisonfire
    I believe the damper cartridge on the 55R says SR Suntour on it... I don't know if that is a good or a bad thing!

    Yeah, i noticed that also while doing a oil change on one.

  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by ban
    2006 was the best year for the 888....
    I agree. I don't plan on replacing my 2006 888 RC2X anytime soon.

  57. #57
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    When I bought a new frame a month ago I almost "upgraded" my old 05 888rc to an 08 888rc3 WC. I guess I'll just keep rockin the 05 since it hasn't had a single problem yet.

    Why do companies feel like they have to rush to get a new technology (ie.RC3) out there every single new year? Everyone wants to push the envelope when it comes to technology but by not properly testing products before they go into production is stupid. In fact it's working against them. Instead of consumers saying "ooooh I can't wait to try the new dampening system", we're scared into saying " I aint gonna be first to touch that new sh!t".
    JRA

  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by eabos
    When I bought a new frame a month ago I almost "upgraded" my old 05 888rc to an 08 888rc3 WC. I guess I'll just keep rockin the 05 since it hasn't had a single problem yet.

    Why do companies feel like they have to rush to get a new technology (ie.RC3) out there every single new year? Everyone wants to push the envelope when it comes to technology but by not properly testing products before they go into production is stupid. In fact it's working against them. Instead of consumers saying "ooooh I can't wait to try the new dampening system", we're scared into saying " I aint gonna be first to touch that new sh!t".
    You watch, any bets that the 09's get RC3X?

  59. #59
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    Well Olivier Bossard has said that "Some Companies" have even taken a step backwards in suspension design and quality and since he worked with Marz it's quite obvious who he meant

    I'm quite happy with my marz 07 888(could be lower). No issues and I break stuff a lot but I'd never but a 08 zoke from what I read here and on other forums. It seems I have to weight for the cheaper version of the bos fork (available at fall) if i wanted a replace. Also Boxxer with new stanctions seems like a good idea.

    BTW. Who else thinks that wider stanctions + added weight are a pointless move by marz? Were the previous years models not stiff enough? For who? Andre the Giant ??
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  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by sixsixtysix
    You watch, any bets that the 09's get RC3X?
    starting at $20.....
    and rase's?
    do i here 30?
    Quote Originally Posted by [Orge
    ]
    This problem could quite simply be solved if people would stop buying Konas.

  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by sixsixtysix
    You watch, any bets that the 09's get RC3X?

    I just got an email from Jenson telling me they have bought out the 08 Zokie stock. $500k Marzocchi clearance !!!!! Seems like Marzocchi tries to be trendy and put "anything" out there, "proven or not" just to be in the latest round of magazine reviews. I'm an engineer and I have, more than once, seen the product actually produced nothing close to what was drawn/spec'd out. Wonderin' if this could be the case here, Zokie seems to be shufflin' their production around to max out profits at the cost of brand reliability and customer satisfaction.
    "Why are you willing to take so much & leave others in need...just because you can?"

  62. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by eabos
    When I bought a new frame a month ago I almost "upgraded" my old 05 888rc to an 08 888rc3 WC. I guess I'll just keep rockin the 05 since it hasn't had a single problem yet.

    Why do companies feel like they have to rush to get a new technology (ie.RC3) out there every single new year? Everyone wants to push the envelope when it comes to technology but by not properly testing products before they go into production is stupid. In fact it's working against them. Instead of consumers saying "ooooh I can't wait to try the new dampening system", we're scared into saying " I aint gonna be first to touch that new sh!t".
    Well actualy Fox, RS and Manitou(travis is not so bad haters...) don't change their product names every year. It's mostly marz problem (and recently shimano with they all new group "this is not hone this is SLX").
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  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by man w/ one hand
    I just got an email from Jenson telling me they have bought out the 08 Zokie stock. $500k Marzocchi clearance !!!!!

    Thats funny, I was on BTI this morning and noticed that they are cleaned out of the 888, 66RC3 and 55R's. The 888 RC3 isn't even listed on the BTI site anymore.

  64. #64
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    Does anyone get the feeling there is either something going on behind the scenes at Zoke? I don't mean the aforementioned problems with manufacturing and customer service. I'm talking leaning things down a bit, or more directly stated, preparation for some sort of massive restructuring or sell off of the division?

    And I just saw the flyer:



    These things just came out a short time ago!

  65. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    Does anyone get the feeling there is either something going on behind the scenes at Zoke? I don't mean the aforementioned problems with manufacturing and customer service. I'm talking leaning things down a bit, or more directly stated, preparation for some sort of massive restructuring or sell off of the division?

    And I just saw the flyer:



    These things just came out a short time ago!
    That would be a bit crazy as Marz is still the most successfull in gravity MTB forks.
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  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by norbar
    That would be a bit crazy as Marz is still the most successfull in gravity MTB forks.

    A man once told me 5-6 yrs ago, "you are seeing change at its lowest pace right now, it's only gonna get faster". He was right too. Things may change drastically for Zokie if they don't get their shyte together. Resting on yer laurels is a stupid thing to do in this day and time. You got a good product; you don't screw w/it until you got something better to offer. Many a company gone due to this.
    "Why are you willing to take so much & leave others in need...just because you can?"

  67. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by man w/ one hand
    A man once told me 5-6 yrs ago, "you are seeing change at its lowest pace right now, it's only gonna get faster". He was right too. Things may change drastically for Zokie if they don't get their shyte together. Resting on yer laurels is a stupid thing to do in this day and time. You got a good product; you don't screw w/it until you got something better to offer. Many a company gone due to this.
    Well for most of the companies have done that for years(minor if any changes, slow response to customer needs). I'm really counting on bos to shake up a little the fork market.
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  68. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by sixsixtysix
    You watch, any bets that the 09's get RC3X?

    "X" is soooo last year! prepare yourself for the RC3Y. No more "world cup" either! We're going universal! RC3Y UC



    In all seriousness, reading all this bumms me out. I've loved my 888 and was really looking forward to something new. Hopefully Marz gets it all worked out.
    JRA

  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by norbar
    Well for most of the companies have done that for years(minor if any changes, slow response to customer needs). I'm really counting on bos to shake up a little the fork market.
    at something like 1000 USD for a shock when the CCDB is available for 650 I don't see the shocks taking over in the near future, and I hear the fork is something absurd like 2K+. I have a feeling when great forks like the 40rc2, boxxer WC, travis, and 888rc3 are available for half that or less.

    I donno, I think that explaining some company has fallen so hugely is a little misleading when in actuality theres a couple annoyances in the performance and they've got some good CS and some bad CS like everybody else. I feel funny arguing FOR marzocchi, this never happens! Even so, as one of the people who has experienced the worst marz has to offer, I'm still not calling them off as a suspension company like many of you seem to be.

  70. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by sixsixtysix
    I am wondering the same thing, because on a couple of the 66's I have seen and touched personally, there is a scary about of play in the lowers, and while most people say they don't notice it while riding, others have, including one of my friends that had more play in the right leg than the left which caused some fun twisting and flexing though rock gardens.

    What is funny is that you don't hear much, if anything about the 888's having bushing play, mine doesn't which is one of the things I can say isn't wrong with the fork. Even with 2 sets of lowers, no play. I haven't seen or read one instance of a 08 888 with the same slop as the 66, yet the lower's are "technically" the same, except for the axle and dropouts. So what's the difference between the two internally? Longer stanchions? More bushing overlap?

    I've notice the same thing on 888 vs 66's 'round here

    There's a couple Devinci Wilson owners we ride with, one has an RC3, and the other just RCV. A couple 888WCs have gone out, but I have no info on those from the riders.

    The Wilson RC3 uses code brakes as I do, but has no where near the same amount of slop, but does have a small but noticeable wiggle at full extension. Acceptable

    of the 66's sold here I have my RC3, another rider with an RC3 on a glory, and another glory spec'd with a 66RV

    my 66RC3 has more slop than the RC3 on the Glory(we both run codes), and about the same as the 66RV running codes as well (which poured oil through the seals the minute it got flipped upside-down, but that's another story...)

    Now for the fun part:

    One of the shop owners just bought a 66RC3 from the new batch with the new lowers and thru-axle (his 55ATA was barfing oil Surprise!) and low-and-fuggin-behold: Nearly identical in wiggle as the RC3 888 on the Devinci Wilson

    What gives

  71. #71
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    Wouldn't it be dreadful if SR Suntour eventually buys Marzocchi out? That might be where the winds would eventually be blowing to. I plan to buy the spare parts for my forks before that happens as eventually even the spare parts might be SR Suntour.
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  72. #72
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    You people are ridiculous. They release a completely new product line manufactured in a completely new factory. Of course there are going to be teething issues. It has nothing to do with Suntour manufacturing them. They've manufactured high end stuff for various companies for a while.

  73. #73
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    So the 66 RC3 is a definite NO-GO?

    They are quite cheap at Jenson right now...

  74. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Blonde
    You people are ridiculous. They release a completely new product line manufactured in a completely new factory. Of course there are going to be teething issues. It has nothing to do with Suntour manufacturing them. They've manufactured high end stuff for various companies for a while.

    I think you're missing the point


    While 'teething issues' pop up in manufacturing of new items in all industries, most companies don't put out public information releases saying that the problem is 'fine' and 'engineered into the product'

    How many "teething issues' does it take to declare product faulty?

  75. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacubaya
    So the 66 RC3 is a definite NO-GO?

    They are quite cheap at Jenson right now...

    If you can guarantee that it's not one of the original runs with the previous 20mm QR it should be fine. The one new 66RC3 that is here feels exactly how it's should

    Shame, cause RC3 is a great dampener

  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karupshun
    If you can guarantee that it's not one of the original runs with the previous 20mm QR it should be fine. The one new 66RC3 that is here feels exactly how it's should

    Shame, cause RC3 is a great dampener
    I wouldn't know about that, I would guess it's a first batch.

    BTW, it's damper, not dampener.

  77. #77
    lmx
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    my bike came stock with 888 ata wc...who is to blame...?the bike company didn't do their homework while testing the new components or marzocchi,i think everybody is to blame...
    ouin! pas pire.

  78. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by William42
    at something like 1000 USD for a shock when the CCDB is available for 650 I don't see the shocks taking over in the near future, and I hear the fork is something absurd like 2K+. I have a feeling when great forks like the 40rc2, boxxer WC, travis, and 888rc3 are available for half that or less.

    I donno, I think that explaining some company has fallen so hugely is a little misleading when in actuality theres a couple annoyances in the performance and they've got some good CS and some bad CS like everybody else. I feel funny arguing FOR marzocchi, this never happens! Even so, as one of the people who has experienced the worst marz has to offer, I'm still not calling them off as a suspension company like many of you seem to be.
    Not everybody lives in a country with dirt cheap money :P Here the price of Bos and CCDB is around the same. Also the tech behind BOS is way over Fox or any other fork manufacturer. They make the top car WRC racing susp. that is one good recomendation. Plus they don't have to be super popular. They can just show ppl how forks/shocks can be made. First full sus bike were also costing a shitload of $$ and yet now everybody uses it
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  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacubaya
    So the 66 RC3 is a definite NO-GO?

    They are quite cheap at Jenson right now...
    I have had the two big problems (crap bushings, faulty casting with lowers causing loose axle) with my 66rc3.

    I wont be trying to sell mine until I can no longer run it, and I would recommend it to other riders.

  80. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by man w/ one hand
    A man once told me 5-6 yrs ago, "you are seeing change at its lowest pace right now, it's only gonna get faster". He was right too. Things may change drastically for Zokie if they don't get their shyte together. Resting on yer laurels is a stupid thing to do in this day and time. You got a good product; you don't screw w/it until you got something better to offer. Many a company gone due to this.
    This is true. I started riding bmx in '76 and began mtb in '91. Bikes have always been a huge part of my life, and I have been following everything since the crazed mtb boom of the mid '90's. Advancements, (I use the term lightly) were popping up everywhere, (biopace, gripshift, 1st Rockshox and Manitou, Kooka, AC, elevated chainstays, etc. etc. etc.), and then they tapered off, many companies died or moved on to something new. Things were slow, and have been relatively slow since then. So if you believe in the cyclic process, then it would stand to reason that accelerated change will be coming back soon.

    How many years have some of the largest companies been rehashing different versions of the same thing, or released new products that are supposedly a groundbreaking upgrade, when they are nothing more than a new paint color and a different style washer somewhere. I have a feeling that some true breakthroughs are not on the too distant horizon.

  81. #81
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    The future is in gearboxes and different aluminum manipulation techniques to develop stronger, lighter frames.

  82. #82
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    I just ordered a new RC3, hopefully I will see it next week. I was assured it was from the "new stock", whatever that means. As I understand it, the lowers are new resolving the QR issue (which should never be an issue, a pinch bolt style would be just fine).

    I was having a tough time choosing between the RC3 and Totem coil. After speaking to Scott and Krispy at Go-ride who both have time on each fork, they highly recommended the RC3. They mentioned to me that the Totem is not without its share of problems (bushings, and seals). The big selling point to me was the ability to adjust the progression and bottom out with oil height, and the overall ability to tune the forkl I have been running 66's for a while and I love the older stuff. I know from my limited time on a Lyrik coil that i can bottom it with very little effort, even the second heaviest spring (I weigh 170lb).

    So that leaves me with the RC3. I had sworn off Marzocchi after everything I have read about the 08 stuff. But, of the options I have, I believe this is the best one. Everything I hear is that the RC3 damper kills, even my 06 RC2X.

    I am glad Marzocchi addressed the design issues mid year, and it seems that the CS backlog is clearing out. I have my fingers crossed. I will post back if I have any issues.
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  83. #83
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    origonal bomber orange!
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    66RC2X 06 best fork ever had
    WC 888 07 another great fork no issues at all with mine, apart from the decals falling off!

    imo it all went wrong when they came out with a QR for the 66 WTF

    GHEY graphics from the 60s Avengers

    I think they must have taken over Manitou's mission statement from previous years, make the most and to hell with quality and ship em out like insurance most won' complain just keep those who scream the loudest happy, stuff the rest!

    Personally Ive had a good run with Marz products and support even when many here say the support locally is not so good, Ive had no big issues!
    So its sad to see this happen to Marz!

    Unfortunately many companies think that coming out with the latest gadgets graphics and other BS dials for this and that is what sells product and you know what theyre right it does, cause we are stupid consumers in most cases! Humans are like sheep they follow each other to the slaughter house!
    When the real formula esspecially in a tech industry like this where risk is a big factor, quality reliability are key issues esspecially for the prices, I don't mind paying for it if this is backed up, Ive always had an issue with weigth weanie's something has to give, so a balance has to be met here and then the consumer needs to accept that so all you 36 dudes out there expecting ya forks to be dent free, at that wieght what do you expect comon get real, that strength has to be missing somewhere!

    Reality is this is a small market and heavily competitive and those like most here won't put up with any product crap from any company and why should we, its a dangerous enough sport not to have confidence in our products esspecially these days where tech and quality should have merged and we are paying a s h i t load for them, which is what amazes me, we pay for it, we have a right to question its our ruddy money we forking out, no pun!

    Marz had the right formula they just needed to find a balance, they have the best test facilities around in Europe and Canada!

    I currently have no Marz left in the stable, Ive always been a big fan since the first bomber, I will wait and see what develops over time but it will be atleast late 09 -2010 if they haven't been sold off, I also have a conspiracy side that sees something strange happening here, also I don't pay a preimum to have suntour on my parts, so maybe Im done with Marz

    Whats the best of a bad bunch hopefully BOS raise the standard into this area of the industry and maybe the rest will have to step up esspecailly if there pricing structure is in line with the rest!

    edit on that note, I know all forks shocks have had there issues, thats to be expected and others have said my thoughts in this thread quite well, I have had 2 Sram forks and no probs with either no dents no tech issues I know others have had issues with the same forks it happens, PIKE and ARGLE both of which I still have and won't be changing anytime soon, maybe a PUSHed boxxer like someone else said is a good compromise!
    Last edited by trailadvent; 07-09-2008 at 09:54 PM.
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  84. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by tiSS'er
    I just ordered a new RC3, hopefully I will see it next week. I was assured it was from the "new stock", whatever that means. As I understand it, the lowers are new resolving the QR issue (which should never be an issue, a pinch bolt style would be just fine).

    I was having a tough time choosing between the RC3 and Totem coil. After speaking to Scott and Krispy at Go-ride who both have time on each fork, they highly recommended the RC3. They mentioned to me that the Totem is not without its share of problems (bushings, and seals). The big selling point to me was the ability to adjust the progression and bottom out with oil height, and the overall ability to tune the forkl I have been running 66's for a while and I love the older stuff. I know from my limited time on a Lyrik coil that i can bottom it with very little effort, even the second heaviest spring (I weigh 170lb).

    So that leaves me with the RC3. I had sworn off Marzocchi after everything I have read about the 08 stuff. But, of the options I have, I believe this is the best one. Everything I hear is that the RC3 damper kills, even my 06 RC2X.

    I am glad Marzocchi addressed the design issues mid year, and it seems that the CS backlog is clearing out. I have my fingers crossed. I will post back if I have any issues.
    I sure hope your one of the lucky few as Zoke needs to get it's fan base back.
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  85. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by lmx
    my bike came stock with 888 ata wc...who is to blame...?the bike company didn't do their homework while testing the new components or marzocchi,i think everybody is to blame...

    Oh no, I ain't takin' any of th' blame for this crap, hell fire, I wasn't even there when it happened....... j/k
    "Why are you willing to take so much & leave others in need...just because you can?"

  86. #86
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    Last edited by Freerider Forever; 07-11-2008 at 09:13 AM.

  87. #87
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    Someone wrote in another thread that the engineering seems good but the execution is the is the problem.

    Does that sound accurate?

    Seems like a ton of tolerance issues. O-rings in cartridges, O-rings in air springs, bushings...

    Why is this O-ring issue so difficult to spec correctly? (I'm not being b*tchy, I am curious how that can happen - it happened to Fox with the infamous stuck-down issue a few years ago)

    I don't envy the warranty department's position, overloaded with warranty work and not enough parts... yikes!

    P

  88. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.P
    Someone wrote in another thread that the engineering seems good but the execution is the is the problem.

    Does that sound accurate?


    P
    I guess that was my comment about the '08 forks back when the problems were just starting to crop up!
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  89. #89
    lmx
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    Good job!

    Quote Originally Posted by man w/ one hand
    Oh no, I ain't takin' any of th' blame for this crap, hell fire, I wasn't even there when it happened....... j/k

    lol
    ouin! pas pire.

  90. #90
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    Been away from the forums for a few days...

    I just got back from Whistler. Couple weeks ago I got a Rocky Flatline 3 with a 888 RCV. OEM fork, but felt great on the bike and had rebound and compression so I figured I'd give it a shot.

    My first day in Whistler was my 4th day on the bike total... First run was on Krank-it-up. I hadn't ridden the newer lower section so our second run we decided to do it again. About half way down I felt a harsh clunking. It didn't take me long to realize something was broken internally... The fork would stop moving after 2 inches of travel. Harsh bottoming. I took it to Summit and they nodded their heads to a "bushing separation." I guess it slid inside the lowers and wedged itself in the bottom. Common problem I guess. After 250 bucks I was back on the lift. Bummed. I guess I'm cautiously optimistic I won't have any problems with it...
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  91. #91
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    Well, just to add one more to the fire. My good buddy and local ace wrench here in PHX who SWEARS by Zoke, and I mean swears by them had his 66 ATA blow up yesterday.

    He was constantly giving me grief for my 888 breaking, and I think in denial that it was the fork and not me, but alas, yesterday the air chamber in his brand new 66 ATA blew out and the pressure in the top and bottom chamber's basically became one in the same.

    Zoke is sending him a new seal kit, but they also told him the service life on the air seals in the 66 ATA is 9 months...

  92. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Cliffy
    Been away from the forums for a few days...

    I just got back from Whistler. Couple weeks ago I got a Rocky Flatline 3 with a 888 RCV. OEM fork, but felt great on the bike and had rebound and compression so I figured I'd give it a shot.

    My first day in Whistler was my 4th day on the bike total... First run was on Krank-it-up. I hadn't ridden the newer lower section so our second run we decided to do it again. About half way down I felt a harsh clunking. It didn't take me long to realize something was broken internally... The fork would stop moving after 2 inches of travel. Harsh bottoming. I took it to Summit and they nodded their heads to a "bushing separation." I guess it slid inside the lowers and wedged itself in the bottom. Common problem I guess. After 250 bucks I was back on the lift. Bummed. I guess I'm cautiously optimistic I won't have any problems with it...

    Isn't it great to spend 250 out of pocket to fix a warranty issue that should never have been?

    Other than the bushing problem, how was whizzler? I may get to go after labor day

  93. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Cliffy
    Been away from the forums for a few days...

    I just got back from Whistler. Couple weeks ago I got a Rocky Flatline 3 with a 888 RCV. OEM fork, but felt great on the bike and had rebound and compression so I figured I'd give it a shot.

    My first day in Whistler was my 4th day on the bike total... First run was on Krank-it-up. I hadn't ridden the newer lower section so our second run we decided to do it again. About half way down I felt a harsh clunking. It didn't take me long to realize something was broken internally... The fork would stop moving after 2 inches of travel. Harsh bottoming. I took it to Summit and they nodded their heads to a "bushing separation." I guess it slid inside the lowers and wedged itself in the bottom. Common problem I guess. After 250 bucks I was back on the lift. Bummed. I guess I'm cautiously optimistic I won't have any problems with it...
    What year fork 07 or 08 I guess

    I never apologize. I'm sorry, but that's just the way I am.

  94. #94
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    Just to try and clear some of the thick air around here.

    Hello,
    My name is Tom Rogers. I have worked for Marzocchi for 5 years doing development, pro rider support, tech service, and have helped to develop the Rear shock line. I work for Manitou for 10 years and came up with a few designs such as the lock-out, TPC, and TPC+. The reason I say this is so yo know I'm not here to market anything but to try to help solve some of our issues (we know we have) in the market. I truely have some answers to your questions.

    It's true there have been a few people here that have gotten under my skin mainly for their lack of fact and opinions. It's all good. I really could care less but I also believe in what I do so I get 'er done as painlessly as possible. Needless to say it has been painful lately.

    I have been testing and working with Marzocchi Italy in testing and validating product since the day I started. Some of you might have even dealt with me first hand the last 4 years in Whistler. I'm the tall red headed guy that camps at the Marzocchi rig as the base of the mountain. I do it for a lot more than a pay check. I love bikes, we all do here.

    So as far as the fall of the big M. We might have had a hitch in our giddy up but fall we will not.

    I thought I would throw out some facts here to try to clear some of the air. Here goes;

    Bushing play;
    Based on the first lower assemlies we got, the bushing were at the maximum tolerance. We modified the mold, and then tested more, same result, this is not an easy task. Production hit, our deadline passed. We notified the manufactuer that we needed to hit the numbers, regardless we still got parts at the max tolerence. FYI, we do a 70 piont digital inspection on all four bushings, we knew they were at the max. So as the tool runs, it wears. When it wears, it gets bigger. Bang, ouch, stumble, product continues to be made. The vendor (same vendor as we always had) of this part is called out and held responsible for this error without question. We then have the time to modify the mold. Now check this out. Our tolerance is .002"(.05mm) on the diameter. Now the stanchions have the same tolerence with no overlap on the two dimension. Stanchions are produced at the minimum diameter. Now there you have it. .004" of slop. .004"!!! That's it. So as we get better and better casting using the new tool we drive the tolerance down to .0015"(.0381mm). Super crazy fitting. The stanchions stay the same. Also to note, as a fork is ridden it wears in and out....stumble, bang, bump. That hurts.

    So, as of now we have lower assemblies that are spot on. I know our techs were having to give people the "it's exceptable" line to address this mainly due to not having anything around to help the problem. The wheel keeps turning and deadlines have to be meet. I am now sitting on a bunch of new lower assemblies that are as good as they get. Make the call. You will have to send it in and have it inspected and changed to a new one. Just ride your bike and when you have the time, get it to us. We'll fix it up.

    ATA
    ATA is a very tricky cartridge to assemble. One small error and it doesn't hold air. First we had wind down, we addressed it by increasing the detent groove so the mechanish would turn under compression loads during riding. It worked ok but we still had issue. We now have a top adjuster cap that assists this issue. It actually locks into the top spline of the top cap. The detent has been under a microscope to make sure it is being produced correctly.

    Air leaking, assembly error of a few wrong o-rings. Just like the space shuttle, it fails. Problem has been addressed but the damage is done.

    Crushed shaft and body, the parts were being clamped and ovalized when being assembled. The tool has been changed, problem solved, but damage done.

    TST with limited travel
    The endcap seal is unidirectional, It holds the oil in but it became appearent that the lubrication oil was being rammed into the cartridge on hard compressions. Ouch, we never saw it until it was too late. This design was origianlly used with grease being used for lubrication not oil. ooops.
    We now have a new and improved endcap for both TST2 and TST micro. It seals from inside out and outside in.

    For the most part those are the major problems we have been faced with for this model year but we will garantee that we are doing everything we can to keep from stumbling anymore and to solve all your issues.

    You have to admit that by me posting this on a public forum that we are not trying to pull the wool over anyones eyes. We just want to fix this and get the ball rolling again.

    As far as ROCO's having issues. I haven't seen anything that is consistant to put a finger on what or why we have seen some failures. Check your mounting hardware and make sure the shock can rotate once the shock has been tightened into the bike. This can be done by taking the shock and hardware and pinching the hardware in a vise. If the shock rotates seperately from the shock you are good, if not, you will have a premature failure. If the mounting hardware doesn't allow the shock to rotate on the eyelets, the shock will fail prematurely. I have seen this and has been addressed but it could happen. Check it.


    FYI, I am normally over in the shocks and suspension forum and can also be PM'd to try to help get your issues resolved. Same service you will get calling here dispite opinions made here.

    Sorry for the errors and hitchs in your giddy up, but rest assured we are not going anywhere. We are learning from these mistakes and taking action, this being one of them.

    I truly believe in our product and so does everyone from the President to the maid. We want you to be happy and ride your bikes with a big shyte eating grins the whole way. Let's take a deep breath and get down to it.

    I look forward to making it right.

    Sincerily,
    Tom Rogers
    Marzocchi USA
    Research and Development tech
    Jack of all, master of none. (not a marketing guy)
    Ride Your Bike!

  95. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marzocchi Tech Department



    I thought I would throw out some facts here to try to clear some of the air. Here goes;

    Bushing play;
    Based on the first lower assemlies we got, the bushing were at the maximum tolerance. We modified the mold, and then tested more, same result, this is not an easy task. Production hit, our deadline passed. We notified the manufactuer that we needed to hit the numbers, regardless we still got parts at the max tolerence. FYI, we do a 70 piont digital inspection on all four bushings, we knew they were at the max. So as the tool runs, it wears. When it wears, it gets bigger. Bang, ouch, stumble, product continues to be made. The vendor (same vendor as we always had) of this part is called out and held responsible for this error without question. We then have the time to modify the mold. Now check this out. Our tolerance is .002"(.05mm) on the diameter. Now the stanchions have the same tolerence with no overlap on the two dimension. Stanchions are produced at the minimum diameter. Now there you have it. .004" of slop. .004"!!! That's it. So as we get better and better casting using the new tool we drive the tolerance down to .0015"(.0381mm). Super crazy fitting. The stanchions stay the same. Also to note, as a fork is ridden it wears in and out....stumble, bang, bump. That hurts.

    So, as of now we have lower assemblies that are spot on. I know our techs were having to give people the "it's exceptable" line to address this mainly due to not having anything around to help the problem. The wheel keeps turning and deadlines have to be meet. I am now sitting on a bunch of new lower assemblies that are as good as they get. Make the call. You will have to send it in and have it inspected and changed to a new one. Just ride your bike and when you have the time, get it to us. We'll fix it up.

    Thanks for being a consummate professional in this post Tom, I'll send mine in when I have some time in a few weeks. Do you know what the turn-around time is like from here in British Columbia, Canada?

  96. #96
    Build More = Ride More
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marzocchi Tech Department
    Hello,
    My name is Tom Rogers. I have worked for Marzocchi for 5 years doing development, pro rider support, tech service, and have helped to develop the Rear shock line. I work for Manitou for 10 years and came up with a few designs such as the lock-out, TPC, and TPC+. The reason I say this is so yo know I'm not here to market anything but to try to help solve some of our issues (we know we have) in the market. I truely have some answers to your questions.

    It's true there have been a few people here that have gotten under my skin mainly for their lack of fact and opinions. It's all good. I really could care less but I also believe in what I do so I get 'er done as painlessly as possible. Needless to say it has been painful lately.

    I have been testing and working with Marzocchi Italy in testing and validating product since the day I started. Some of you might have even dealt with me first hand the last 4 years in Whistler. I'm the tall red headed guy that camps at the Marzocchi rig as the base of the mountain. I do it for a lot more than a pay check. I love bikes, we all do here.

    So as far as the fall of the big M. We might have had a hitch in our giddy up but fall we will not.

    I thought I would throw out some facts here to try to clear some of the air. Here goes;

    Bushing play;
    Based on the first lower assemlies we got, the bushing were at the maximum tolerance. We modified the mold, and then tested more, same result, this is not an easy task. Production hit, our deadline passed. We notified the manufactuer that we needed to hit the numbers, regardless we still got parts at the max tolerence. FYI, we do a 70 piont digital inspection on all four bushings, we knew they were at the max. So as the tool runs, it wears. When it wears, it gets bigger. Bang, ouch, stumble, product continues to be made. The vendor (same vendor as we always had) of this part is called out and held responsible for this error without question. We then have the time to modify the mold. Now check this out. Our tolerance is .002"(.05mm) on the diameter. Now the stanchions have the same tolerence with no overlap on the two dimension. Stanchions are produced at the minimum diameter. Now there you have it. .004" of slop. .004"!!! That's it. So as we get better and better casting using the new tool we drive the tolerance down to .0015"(.0381mm). Super crazy fitting. The stanchions stay the same. Also to note, as a fork is ridden it wears in and out....stumble, bang, bump. That hurts.

    So, as of now we have lower assemblies that are spot on. I know our techs were having to give people the "it's exceptable" line to address this mainly due to not having anything around to help the problem. The wheel keeps turning and deadlines have to be meet. I am now sitting on a bunch of new lower assemblies that are as good as they get. Make the call. You will have to send it in and have it inspected and changed to a new one. Just ride your bike and when you have the time, get it to us. We'll fix it up.

    ATA
    ATA is a very tricky cartridge to assemble. One small error and it doesn't hold air. First we had wind down, we addressed it by increasing the detent groove so the mechanish would turn under compression loads during riding. It worked ok but we still had issue. We now have a top adjuster cap that assists this issue. It actually locks into the top spline of the top cap. The detent has been under a microscope to make sure it is being produced correctly.

    Air leaking, assembly error of a few wrong o-rings. Just like the space shuttle, it fails. Problem has been addressed but the damage is done.

    Crushed shaft and body, the parts were being clamped and ovalized when being assembled. The tool has been changed, problem solved, but damage done.

    TST with limited travel
    The endcap seal is unidirectional, It holds the oil in but it became appearent that the lubrication oil was being rammed into the cartridge on hard compressions. Ouch, we never saw it until it was too late. This design was origianlly used with grease being used for lubrication not oil. ooops.
    We now have a new and improved endcap for both TST2 and TST micro. It seals from inside out and outside in.

    For the most part those are the major problems we have been faced with for this model year but we will garantee that we are doing everything we can to keep from stumbling anymore and to solve all your issues.

    You have to admit that by me posting this on a public forum that we are not trying to pull the wool over anyones eyes. We just want to fix this and get the ball rolling again.

    As far as ROCO's having issues. I haven't seen anything that is consistant to put a finger on what or why we have seen some failures. Check your mounting hardware and make sure the shock can rotate once the shock has been tightened into the bike. This can be done by taking the shock and hardware and pinching the hardware in a vise. If the shock rotates seperately from the shock you are good, if not, you will have a premature failure. If the mounting hardware doesn't allow the shock to rotate on the eyelets, the shock will fail prematurely. I have seen this and has been addressed but it could happen. Check it.


    FYI, I am normally over in the shocks and suspension forum and can also be PM'd to try to help get your issues resolved. Same service you will get calling here dispite opinions made here.

    Sorry for the errors and hitchs in your giddy up, but rest assured we are not going anywhere. We are learning from these mistakes and taking action, this being one of them.

    I truly believe in our product and so does everyone from the President to the maid. We want you to be happy and ride your bikes with a big shyte eating grins the whole way. Let's take a deep breath and get down to it.

    I look forward to making it right.

    Sincerily,
    Tom Rogers
    Marzocchi USA
    Research and Development tech
    Jack of all, master of none. (not a marketing guy)
    Way to man up and tell it like it is! Bravo!

    What's the average turn around time on getting the bushings replaced on a 66rc3? Mine have just the slightest amount of play.

    How do I know if this amount of play is acceptable or not? Doesn't seem to be felt on the trail, but I can't help but think they could be tighter.

  97. #97
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    I've bought Marzocchi in the past but didn't get a choice this time - it came stock on the bike (55 TST2). Had a few issues and was told how to fix it within the hour from Tom by posting on the shocks forum. Never had service like that before, I certainly couldn't get technical help from Specialized within the hour with advice that's from the workshop not the instruction manual. I appeciate the teething problems - not that it's really acceptable for paying customers - but I also appreciate the help you give on here

  98. #98
    trail fairy
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    Thanks for fronting up Tom and giving a clear and concise explanations for the issues, its all people want interaction and info, and support, I can relate totally to having to deal direct with customers when its not your role,due to company policies or politics or communications levels so very appreciated.

    All this has held back some buying decisions for lots of us Im sure, Im on a hitatus at the mo so I watch with interest and do hope it gets back on track we need the big M up there. The best thing when things go wrong is just being honest about it with the customers and Im sure this will win back some credit for you atleast and hopefully that is the approach from Marz themselves!

    Keep up the good fight, its the same in most industries it just how its handled by the company that makes them good or bad, not the individual though that helps some way!

    Good luck with it all
    Just riding a muddy trail. . ..

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  99. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by YoPawn
    Way to man up and tell it like it is! Bravo!

    What's the average turn around time on getting the bushings replaced on a 66rc3? Mine have just the slightest amount of play.

    How do I know if this amount of play is acceptable or not? Doesn't seem to be felt on the trail, but I can't help but think they could be tighter.
    I am not sure but new replacement parts are in the air to Canada. It's only two guys doing everything up there so you will have to go to them and ask.
    Just to clarify, we have always had a little play in our bushings and if your amount of play is a small amount you are in the ball park. Run it. There are some that are, as I read in someones post, finger pinching. Those need to be replaced. FYI, the entire lower wil be canged, not just the bushings so pick a color. A lot of time you have that option. I would even think that a pinch casting instead of a QR axle casting can be done too but it might cost you the price of a new axle to address that. It is an option but might be at a cost. I have to look into this a bit more. $30.00 for the axle is roughly the cost.
    Ride Your Bike!

  100. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by trailadvent
    Thanks for fronting up Tom and giving a clear and concise explanations for the issues, its all people want interaction and info, and support, I can relate totally to having to deal direct with customers when its not your role,due to company policies or politics or communications levels so very appreciated.

    All this has held back some buying decisions for lots of us Im sure, Im on a hitatus at the mo so I watch with interest and do hope it gets back on track we need the big M up there. The best thing when things go wrong is just being honest about it with the customers and Im sure this will win back some credit for you atleast and hopefully that is the approach from Marz themselves!

    Keep up the good fight, its the same in most industries it just how its handled by the company that makes them good or bad, not the individual though that helps some way!

    Good luck with it all

    It's hard to man up without a clear solution. Now we have a solution so I had to let everyone know. Believe me I have been stressed here trying to fix this with any ammo. Now we are getting locked and loaded.

    I'm not sure what my boss is going to say if and when he reads this but hey it's all for the riders and our loyal customers.
    Ride Your Bike!

  101. #101
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    How 'bout a good coil sprung 29er fork from Marz to go with my 98 Z2 alloy, the mightiest cross country pioneer ever made. It stood without peer. Think I'll write 'em a letter.

  102. #102
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    Tom,

    Your honesty is certainly appreciated. Despite all of the bashing (myself included), I decided on the 66RC3 for my new fork.

    If what you are saying is true, this hitch that Marzocchi is experiencing will likely make for a better product. Sounds like Marzocchi is learning from thier mistakes. In the end they will have to work twice as hard to produce a better product, and that is good for the consumer.
    Employed by Pivot Cycles - www.pivotcycles.com

  103. #103
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    Well done Tom, I think (I have not read every single post on the subject in shocks forum) that this is the first time you guys have actually admitted that there was a problem. In my mind that is a HUGE step, and will gain respect IMHO.



    Quote Originally Posted by Marzocchi Tech Department
    Hello,
    My name is Tom Rogers. I have worked for Marzocchi for 5 years doing development, pro rider support, tech service, and have helped to develop the Rear shock line. I work for Manitou for 10 years and came up with a few designs such as the lock-out, TPC, and TPC+. The reason I say this is so yo know I'm not here to market anything but to try to help solve some of our issues (we know we have) in the market. I truely have some answers to your questions.

    It's true there have been a few people here that have gotten under my skin mainly for their lack of fact and opinions. It's all good. I really could care less but I also believe in what I do so I get 'er done as painlessly as possible. Needless to say it has been painful lately.

    I have been testing and working with Marzocchi Italy in testing and validating product since the day I started. Some of you might have even dealt with me first hand the last 4 years in Whistler. I'm the tall red headed guy that camps at the Marzocchi rig as the base of the mountain. I do it for a lot more than a pay check. I love bikes, we all do here.

    So as far as the fall of the big M. We might have had a hitch in our giddy up but fall we will not.

    I thought I would throw out some facts here to try to clear some of the air. Here goes;

    Bushing play;
    Based on the first lower assemlies we got, the bushing were at the maximum tolerance. We modified the mold, and then tested more, same result, this is not an easy task. Production hit, our deadline passed. We notified the manufactuer that we needed to hit the numbers, regardless we still got parts at the max tolerence. FYI, we do a 70 piont digital inspection on all four bushings, we knew they were at the max. So as the tool runs, it wears. When it wears, it gets bigger. Bang, ouch, stumble, product continues to be made. The vendor (same vendor as we always had) of this part is called out and held responsible for this error without question. We then have the time to modify the mold. Now check this out. Our tolerance is .002"(.05mm) on the diameter. Now the stanchions have the same tolerence with no overlap on the two dimension. Stanchions are produced at the minimum diameter. Now there you have it. .004" of slop. .004"!!! That's it. So as we get better and better casting using the new tool we drive the tolerance down to .0015"(.0381mm). Super crazy fitting. The stanchions stay the same. Also to note, as a fork is ridden it wears in and out....stumble, bang, bump. That hurts.

    So, as of now we have lower assemblies that are spot on. I know our techs were having to give people the "it's exceptable" line to address this mainly due to not having anything around to help the problem. The wheel keeps turning and deadlines have to be meet. I am now sitting on a bunch of new lower assemblies that are as good as they get. Make the call. You will have to send it in and have it inspected and changed to a new one. Just ride your bike and when you have the time, get it to us. We'll fix it up.

    ATA
    ATA is a very tricky cartridge to assemble. One small error and it doesn't hold air. First we had wind down, we addressed it by increasing the detent groove so the mechanish would turn under compression loads during riding. It worked ok but we still had issue. We now have a top adjuster cap that assists this issue. It actually locks into the top spline of the top cap. The detent has been under a microscope to make sure it is being produced correctly.

    Air leaking, assembly error of a few wrong o-rings. Just like the space shuttle, it fails. Problem has been addressed but the damage is done.

    Crushed shaft and body, the parts were being clamped and ovalized when being assembled. The tool has been changed, problem solved, but damage done.

    TST with limited travel
    The endcap seal is unidirectional, It holds the oil in but it became appearent that the lubrication oil was being rammed into the cartridge on hard compressions. Ouch, we never saw it until it was too late. This design was origianlly used with grease being used for lubrication not oil. ooops.
    We now have a new and improved endcap for both TST2 and TST micro. It seals from inside out and outside in.

    For the most part those are the major problems we have been faced with for this model year but we will garantee that we are doing everything we can to keep from stumbling anymore and to solve all your issues.

    You have to admit that by me posting this on a public forum that we are not trying to pull the wool over anyones eyes. We just want to fix this and get the ball rolling again.

    As far as ROCO's having issues. I haven't seen anything that is consistant to put a finger on what or why we have seen some failures. Check your mounting hardware and make sure the shock can rotate once the shock has been tightened into the bike. This can be done by taking the shock and hardware and pinching the hardware in a vise. If the shock rotates seperately from the shock you are good, if not, you will have a premature failure. If the mounting hardware doesn't allow the shock to rotate on the eyelets, the shock will fail prematurely. I have seen this and has been addressed but it could happen. Check it.


    FYI, I am normally over in the shocks and suspension forum and can also be PM'd to try to help get your issues resolved. Same service you will get calling here dispite opinions made here.

    Sorry for the errors and hitchs in your giddy up, but rest assured we are not going anywhere. We are learning from these mistakes and taking action, this being one of them.

    I truly believe in our product and so does everyone from the President to the maid. We want you to be happy and ride your bikes with a big shyte eating grins the whole way. Let's take a deep breath and get down to it.

    I look forward to making it right.

    Sincerily,
    Tom Rogers
    Marzocchi USA
    Research and Development tech
    Jack of all, master of none. (not a marketing guy)

  104. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marzocchi Tech Department
    Hello,
    My name is Tom Rogers. I have worked for Marzocchi for 5 years doing development, pro rider support, tech service, and have helped to develop the Rear shock line. I work for Manitou for 10 years and came up with a few designs such as the lock-out, TPC, and TPC+. The reason I say this is so yo know I'm not here to market anything but to try to help solve some of our issues (we know we have) in the market. I truely have some answers to your questions.

    It's true there have been a few people here that have gotten under my skin mainly for their lack of fact and opinions. It's all good. I really could care less but I also believe in what I do so I get 'er done as painlessly as possible. Needless to say it has been painful lately.

    I have been testing and working with Marzocchi Italy in testing and validating product since the day I started. Some of you might have even dealt with me first hand the last 4 years in Whistler. I'm the tall red headed guy that camps at the Marzocchi rig as the base of the mountain. I do it for a lot more than a pay check. I love bikes, we all do here.

    So as far as the fall of the big M. We might have had a hitch in our giddy up but fall we will not.

    I thought I would throw out some facts here to try to clear some of the air. Here goes;

    Bushing play;
    Based on the first lower assemlies we got, the bushing were at the maximum tolerance. We modified the mold, and then tested more, same result, this is not an easy task. Production hit, our deadline passed. We notified the manufactuer that we needed to hit the numbers, regardless we still got parts at the max tolerence. FYI, we do a 70 piont digital inspection on all four bushings, we knew they were at the max. So as the tool runs, it wears. When it wears, it gets bigger. Bang, ouch, stumble, product continues to be made. The vendor (same vendor as we always had) of this part is called out and held responsible for this error without question. We then have the time to modify the mold. Now check this out. Our tolerance is .002"(.05mm) on the diameter. Now the stanchions have the same tolerence with no overlap on the two dimension. Stanchions are produced at the minimum diameter. Now there you have it. .004" of slop. .004"!!! That's it. So as we get better and better casting using the new tool we drive the tolerance down to .0015"(.0381mm). Super crazy fitting. The stanchions stay the same. Also to note, as a fork is ridden it wears in and out....stumble, bang, bump. That hurts.

    So, as of now we have lower assemblies that are spot on. I know our techs were having to give people the "it's exceptable" line to address this mainly due to not having anything around to help the problem. The wheel keeps turning and deadlines have to be meet. I am now sitting on a bunch of new lower assemblies that are as good as they get. Make the call. You will have to send it in and have it inspected and changed to a new one. Just ride your bike and when you have the time, get it to us. We'll fix it up.

    ATA
    ATA is a very tricky cartridge to assemble. One small error and it doesn't hold air. First we had wind down, we addressed it by increasing the detent groove so the mechanish would turn under compression loads during riding. It worked ok but we still had issue. We now have a top adjuster cap that assists this issue. It actually locks into the top spline of the top cap. The detent has been under a microscope to make sure it is being produced correctly.

    Air leaking, assembly error of a few wrong o-rings. Just like the space shuttle, it fails. Problem has been addressed but the damage is done.

    Crushed shaft and body, the parts were being clamped and ovalized when being assembled. The tool has been changed, problem solved, but damage done.

    TST with limited travel
    The endcap seal is unidirectional, It holds the oil in but it became appearent that the lubrication oil was being rammed into the cartridge on hard compressions. Ouch, we never saw it until it was too late. This design was origianlly used with grease being used for lubrication not oil. ooops.
    We now have a new and improved endcap for both TST2 and TST micro. It seals from inside out and outside in.

    For the most part those are the major problems we have been faced with for this model year but we will garantee that we are doing everything we can to keep from stumbling anymore and to solve all your issues.

    You have to admit that by me posting this on a public forum that we are not trying to pull the wool over anyones eyes. We just want to fix this and get the ball rolling again.

    As far as ROCO's having issues. I haven't seen anything that is consistant to put a finger on what or why we have seen some failures. Check your mounting hardware and make sure the shock can rotate once the shock has been tightened into the bike. This can be done by taking the shock and hardware and pinching the hardware in a vise. If the shock rotates seperately from the shock you are good, if not, you will have a premature failure. If the mounting hardware doesn't allow the shock to rotate on the eyelets, the shock will fail prematurely. I have seen this and has been addressed but it could happen. Check it.


    FYI, I am normally over in the shocks and suspension forum and can also be PM'd to try to help get your issues resolved. Same service you will get calling here dispite opinions made here.

    Sorry for the errors and hitchs in your giddy up, but rest assured we are not going anywhere. We are learning from these mistakes and taking action, this being one of them.

    I truly believe in our product and so does everyone from the President to the maid. We want you to be happy and ride your bikes with a big shyte eating grins the whole way. Let's take a deep breath and get down to it.

    I look forward to making it right.

    Sincerily,
    Tom Rogers
    Marzocchi USA
    Research and Development tech
    Jack of all, master of none. (not a marketing guy)
    TR,
    You are a stright shooter, no BS type of guy, I always respected you for that.

    Tom puts in a hell of alot of R&D time...But the way things went down this year, these guys had no way to avoid being caught behind the 8-ball. I suspect TR has been pushing harder to make sure 2008 doesn't repeat itself.

    Brian

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    Thanks Tom. Early this year, I picked up a new 55ata and roco tst air directly from Marz at the headquarters in Valencia (I live in LA so the drive is not a big deal) and just like others here, I have had some issues.

    I can say that the CS has been top notch from Mike, Gideon and Ronnie. I have personally met these guys a few times and they do care about us customers. It sucks to have to take the heat for issues, especially when it isn't your fault and you aren't making upper level management money, and these guys are still positive and friendly despite the position they have been put in. Let's all just try to remember that.

    Cheers

  106. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Peterson
    Wow.. Take a random look in here almost 8 months after leaving Marz and a 2 year old post is brought back up... Funny stuff...

    BTW, the name I left on that post won't get you anywhere anymore... He left too...

    Edit: Even funnier... I saw 3 threads where you brought me up... And I bet there is more if I was to dig deeper. Man, I really got under your skin. It must be nice to be able to pick fights with industry people in a public forum and not have to worry about anybody calling your boss and trying to get you fired. BTW, you never did answer my question on how the function of a suspension fork is similar to an automatic transmission in a car...

    Brian
    Funny... you were a conceited ass when you worked for Marz and you still are.....I wonder how many customers you single handedly turned off of Marz as their 'public voice'?

  107. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Blonde
    You people are ridiculous. They release a completely new product line manufactured in a completely new factory. Of course there are going to be teething issues. It has nothing to do with Suntour manufacturing them. They've manufactured high end stuff for various companies for a while.
    All true, but was Marz unaware of the switch? Did it catch them buy surprise?

    It was Marz's 'job' to make the transition happen in the smoothest way and fully understand there WILL be problems in mfg.

    Now here is where I think Marz failed, why people are upset, and why the responsibility lies directly on Marz's shoulders:

    As a mature company, they should have planned for the worst case scenario in the change and IMO, they did not do this (or they would not have so many unhappy customers).
    They tried to release new 'technology' (un-needed and non-beneficail I might add) across the entire line in the same year as changing mfg locations....Very stupid.
    The real world 'proof of concept'/testing of all product from the new factory had to be done to have ANY idea of the quality of product being produced. This was obviously not done to a level that was appropriate.

    No matter what, there were bound to be some issues and the cost of taking care of those issues better have been calcualted into the move and subsequent higher profits to be realized in the move. Spare parts should have been abundant. CS/warantee should have been beefed up and prepared for the possible rush of defective products...again not done it seems, based on turn around times. In the same vain, replacement parts should have been overstocked in anticipation of problems....again based on public feedback, this was not done either.

    You are correct that Suntour can and has made high-end sus. products...and this supports my personal feeling that there is a larger issue here that has more to do with poor design/proof of concept/testing than particular mfg plant issues.

    I think you would find the public much more accepting of product issues if Marz admitted to the issues at hand, and helped the customer in a 'timely' manner rather than making excuses and 'back engineering/justifying' faults as they show up. Stop making excuses, stop forcing the customer to wait for a shipment of cartrages from Aisa (that will most likely fail again)....and just replace the fricking fork. The mfg MUST suck it up and absorb the cost of making/distibuting and selling/proffiting off of defective products. loose some $$ now and keep your loyal customer base, or piss them all off and watch sales go throught the floor..your choice guys.

    I have had many personal products in many industries fail miserably and it was the way CS was handled that determined my feeling about a company in the end. I also used to run a semi-related biz and dealt with customer problems every day).....the way we/I took care of our customers insured that they would be back as repeat customers even if the product they bought turned out to be a POS.
    I made DAMN sure that my vendors (mfgs) backed up my decisions to make my customers happy...or they would not be sold in my store any longer.

    The bike biz has used the customer as R&D for WAY too long and somehow gets away with it because consumers are convinced that they NEED the latest non-functional acronym rather than a product that is proven and works as advertised.

  108. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by davep
    All true, but was Marz unaware of the switch? Did it catch them buy surprise?

    It was Marz's 'job' to make the transition happen in the smoothest way and fully understand there WILL be problems in mfg.

    Now here is where I think Marz failed, why people are upset, and why the responsibility lies directly on Marz's shoulders:

    As a mature company, they should have planned for the worst case scenario in the change and IMO, they did not do this (or they would not have so many unhappy customers).
    They tried to release new 'technology' (un-needed and non-beneficail I might add) across the entire line in the same year as changing mfg locations....Very stupid.
    The real world 'proof of concept'/testing of all product from the new factory had to be done to have ANY idea of the quality of product being produced. This was obviously not done to a level that was appropriate.

    No matter what, there were bound to be some issues and the cost of taking care of those issues better have been calcualted into the move and subsequent higher profits to be realized in the move. Spare parts should have been abundant. CS/warantee should have been beefed up and prepared for the possible rush of defective products...again not done it seems, based on turn around times. In the same vain, replacement parts should have been overstocked in anticipation of problems....again based on public feedback, this was not done either.

    You are correct that Suntour can and has made high-end sus. products...and this supports my personal feeling that there is a larger issue here that has more to do with poor design/proof of concept/testing than particular mfg plant issues.

    I think you would find the public much more accepting of product issues if Marz admitted to the issues at hand, and helped the customer in a 'timely' manner rather than making excuses and 'back engineering/justifying' faults as they show up. Stop making excuses, stop forcing the customer to wait for a shipment of cartrages from Aisa (that will most likely fail again)....and just replace the fricking fork. The mfg MUST suck it up and absorb the cost of making/distibuting and selling/proffiting off of defective products. loose some $$ now and keep your loyal customer base, or piss them all off and watch sales go throught the floor..your choice guys.

    I have had many personal products in many industries fail miserably and it was the way CS was handled that determined my feeling about a company in the end. I also used to run a semi-related biz and dealt with customer problems every day).....the way we/I took care of our customers insured that they would be back as repeat customers even if the product they bought turned out to be a POS.
    I made DAMN sure that my vendors (mfgs) backed up my decisions to make my customers happy...or they would not be sold in my store any longer.

    The bike biz has used the customer as R&D for WAY too long and somehow gets away with it because consumers are convinced that they NEED the latest non-functional acronym rather than a product that is proven and works as advertised.
    This is all not true. We did not open a new factory in Taiwan. We have been in this factory for years and years. They have been doing our castings and small parts for Italian production for years. So what you are saying is not true.

    Now let's say we expected the worst (like we don't already) and produced a bunch of extra lowers , sub assemblies and extra parts. What we would have is a bunch more bad spare parts sitting on the shelf. It's not like we sit around and produce new product a month or so before the new year. Product is produced months and months beforehand in order to make sure the OEM bikes are able to be assembled, packaged and shipped to their appropriate country. We are not talking a few thousand forks and shocks, we are talking thousands and thousands. What then happens is our aftermarket product is produced next. Again, thousands and thousands of complete units. Even if we were to see a problem once we actually see the production aftermaket forks (Marzocchi USA is a distributor and sells aftermarket product), we have to scramble, and we have been but what you are missing is everything else is out there and not all of it is not correct. So we scramble, find the problem, we stop production which is running at a slower rate, find a solution, and then have to figure out a way to solve the problems that are in the market. We track down product if it's in OEM warehouses still, we contact as many shops as we can, we send techs to these warehouses and sometimes the product is already spread thinnly throughout the globe at bike shops. A lot of this product sits too due to it normally being the middle of winter and this stuff as been presold.
    You want us to beef of our man power? There is no way in hell that there are enough people to cover alll aspects of this let alone manage it. Contacting shops, getting new parts, going to thousands of shops, having them stop what they are doing, and get it all fixed. Again these problems are not 100% of all product in a particular model that was produced. So it turns into a case by case. If it was something castistrophic then a recall would be applied. I've only lived through one of those, Manitou drop outs breaking off.

    This market is so competitive that most companies, including Sram and FOX are always running it wide open to make it happen. You think we like it this way? You think we think to have to come out with something new every year? NO WAY! Look at our 2009 line. It has minimal changes, we added (or brought back) open bath to the 55 line, we added a 15mm axle option. We did new graphics, because it's easy to. We have been busier than a one legged man in an ass kicking contest try to get control of a few errors we made. They effected a lot of product. We are fixing it, we are sending out free product, we are do what we can with the resources we have. Without 100% good product, which I'm sure there are still some bad parts and/or assemblies in this too, you can only try to control the situation.

    You are right on one thing. The consumer is always be subjected to being R&D when a new design is used...since the first suspension fork was made. I was there.I rode one of the first Rockshox Turner ever hand assembled. That thing had to be rebuilt or replaced every month or so. I assembled the first Maintou 1's, 2's, 3's, 4" Mach 5, X-Vert Carbons, Dorado's, swinger shocks, Lock-out's TPC's and the list goes on. My pay check prior to working in house was based on my performance in races....I remember having my new Shimano servowares canti brakes unravel on me in Vermont in 1989. I was in 5th in the Pro race. It happened and I had to fix them right in front of the Japaneze engineers that had just installed them on my bike. I finished in the 30's. **** now a days riders don't even try to fix a flat!! They just drop out. Boohoo, we used to fix it and keep going. We flatted and couldn't fix it, we rode the rim. **** for Downhill races we rode to the top! Remember when SPD's came out? 1989 I had one of the first sets of production pedals again installed by the engineers at the Shasta Lemurian, I couldn't get out of them by the end of the race. A new cleat we sent out a few months later. It's still the same today.

    Again, it's not a new factory. Suntour moved out of this building so we could produce more just due to shear numbers. Also to note SR has been producing almost 70% of all Marzocchi forks for the last 3 years. That takes us right back to the days of kick ass 2005 forks. But again, molds and tooling wears out, new molds have to be made, we choose to change it up sometimes and go for a totally new design (38mm because FOX has 40mm) at that time. Sometimes **** happens. At least it wasn't a cantilever brake sucking under your rim and throwing you over the bars.

    So your facts need to be based on what is actually happening and not what you read here. I am telling you things that I probably shouldn't sometimes but I'm no bullshiter. I never have been. That's why I do what I do. I have to get in our engineers faces, and prove that it is indeed f'd up and then they have to make a chioce. Those chioces are not mine. Mine is to let them know....and now to let customers know when I have been told I can. Normally I never talk to anyone, I just dream things up (like the ROCO line). Believe me one walk through the village in Whistler and you know something is up. When I first went there I didn't even see one fork other than Marzocchis. Now I get e-mails from shops with 15+ employees saying only two of them are still riding our stuff. That sucks and the damage is done but we will not "fall down" and go away. We are going to fix it and take it back. That's how we are operating. Can you imagine my boss finding out that we have bad product in the market? Holly **** flying around the building batman. I turned into a private eye to get to the bottom of it and heads rolled...and I'm still here, a lot of people aren't here anymore. We'll see what happens in the future but you can garantee we have learned from these mistakes and hopefully they won't happen again.

    Also to note, we had a lot of spare parts around to cover issues in the market. I spent days pulling product off the shelf and distroying it and waiting for the next batch of good parts. If I was to have lit the pile of magnesium castings I broke on fire you would have seen it from space.

    Again we never come to this threads to say WOW my fork or shock is killer, it's always a ***** session and about problems. So now you can call me the *****. But don't forget I have the solutions for you too.

    Take a deep breath and let's get 'er done.
    Last edited by Marzocchi Tech Department; 07-12-2008 at 09:14 PM.
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  109. #109
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    close the thread, that was the best post evah, and the final word on the subject. I'm going to start saving for an 09 888 now.

    I never apologize. I'm sorry, but that's just the way I am.

  110. #110
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    I love my 08 Roco

  111. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marzocchi Tech Department

    As far as ROCO's having issues. I haven't seen anything that is consistant to put a finger on what or why we have seen some failures. Check your mounting hardware and make sure the shock can rotate once the shock has been tightened into the bike. This can be done by taking the shock and hardware and pinching the hardware in a vise. If the shock rotates seperately from the shock you are good, if not, you will have a premature failure. If the mounting hardware doesn't allow the shock to rotate on the eyelets, the shock will fail prematurely. I have seen this and has been addressed but it could happen. Check it.


    :
    thanks for your candor in your post. i have been trying to stay loyal to zoke while my buddies go fox.....this helps

    question? can you explain the above shock mounting hardware issue? i bought a roco this year and the rear bushing seemed to wear abnormally fast (within 2 days of riding). i took it off and it seemed the spacer sleeves were too long (the spacer sleeves were pinching the shock body when installed). i took them off and sanded them down untill the shock was rotating on the bushing/bearing when installed and the spacers could be rotated by hand when installed. Is this the right way to do this because the slop is still there though and i am about to order a couple extra sets of hardware. i want to find out if i will need to sand down the new spacer sleeves (or reuse the old ones i guess)
    Last edited by sltmarc; 07-13-2008 at 01:31 AM.

  112. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by sltmarc
    thanks for your candor in your post. i have been trying to stay loyal to zoke while my buddies go fox.....this helps

    question? can you explain the above shock mounting hardware issue? i bought a roco this year and the rear bushing seemed to wear abnormally fast (within 2 days of riding). i took it off and it seemed the spacer sleeves were too long (the spacer sleeves were pinching the shock body when installed). i took them off and sanded them down untill the shock was rotating on the bushing/bearing when installed and the spacers could be rotated by hand when installed. Is this the right way to do this because the slop is still there though and i am about to order a couple extra sets of hardware. i want to find out if i will need to sand down the new spacer sleeves (or reuse the old ones i guess)
    Yeah, it's a simple piece to produce, or at least you would think so but we here at MUSA we order our own hardware from a local So.Cal supplier due to this issue. I just got done checking the new batch and everything seems spot on. If you are ordering from us you can ask our sales guys to have me check these. It's easy to trim if they are bad but our stock should be good now. I check every single piece I send out and this new batch is 100% good. 2006 ROCO's came with hardware and there were quite a few with the pinch factor and it really bit us the first year we made the shock. We have addressed it, years ago but believe it or not there is a lot of that old hardware still floating around.
    It has to have, or should have a little room to float side to side (I like .75mm) to make up for the frame mounting pionts not being perfect. I have seen frames that are offset almost a millimeter from one mounting piont to the other. terrible.
    Make sure you grease this when installing the mounting hardware to increase the bushing life.
    Ride Your Bike!

  113. #113
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    I've always like Marzocchi products - and I think their service has got better this year as well.
    Simple | Proven | Reliable

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  114. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marzocchi Tech Department
    Yeah, it's a simple piece to produce, or at least you would think so but we here at MUSA we order our own hardware from a local So.Cal supplier due to this issue. I just got done checking the new batch and everything seems spot on. If you are ordering from us you can ask our sales guys to have me check these. It's easy to trim if they are bad but our stock should be good now. I check every single piece I send out and this new batch is 100% good. 2006 ROCO's came with hardware and there were quite a few with the pinch factor and it really bit us the first year we made the shock. We have addressed it, years ago but believe it or not there is a lot of that old hardware still floating around.
    It has to have, or should have a little room to float side to side (I like .75mm) to make up for the frame mounting pionts not being perfect. I have seen frames that are offset almost a millimeter from one mounting piont to the other. terrible.
    Make sure you grease this when installing the mounting hardware to increase the bushing life.
    Just a quick question cause I got to thinking!
    It's not the stainless steel hollow pin that rotates in the bushing(bush). The steel pin should be pretty tight in the bushing. It's the 6,8, or 10mm bolt that the shock rotates on. Am I correct in this??? So if the spacers are wider than the pin, they will pinch the shock between the mounts and the eyelets and hinder motion and grind against the sides?

    Again I repeat, the shock pin should not spin around inside the eyelet bushing? But repeated stress will wear the bush out and it will need to be replaced eventually. Right?

    Unless we are referring to the top-hat type of shock hardware!

  115. #115
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    Tom,

    I've been a big critic of some of your actions here but it seems that in this thread you finally "manned up" and are acting like a complete professional. Maybe even going above and beyond that and cutting through some company BS and giving us the truth. So maybe you can help me out here.

    I am looking for a adjustable travel 160mm fork for my DH hardtail. Will the 55ATA handle this. I've heard a lot of people claim that the tst is a flawed design and will fail or perform poorly in this application. Is this true? i understand who signs your paycheck but I'd appreciate the straght scoop. if you can't comment here a PM would be fine or if you can't comment at all I completely understand. If the design is sound I would love to go for that fork but I guess I could always step up to the 66 ata if the tst is poorly suited.

  116. #116
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    not to be a dick here, but if you have questions regarding marzocchi suspension, why don't you take them to the shocks and suspension forum - theres already a thread setup for dealing with exactly this. Just to keep the clutter out of this thread.

  117. #117
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    Finally MUSA has come around and while it was a long road of disrespect and double talk from Tom, in the end, he realized that only the brutal truth of the trouble within the company would be the only thing people would accept.

    Now to put your money where your mouth is, make good on the 09 promises, along with the return shipping and paid repairs on the 08's.

    PS: While we're in an exchange, I noted lots of Taiwanese suppliers selling Zoke forks as of the 08 full changeover to Asian manufacturing. The prices were too good to be true, as in they were below cost for many dealers. Were any leaving the back door of the factory or was Suntour directly selling as well?

  118. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by William42
    not to be a dick here, but if you have questions regarding marzocchi suspension, why don't you take them to the shocks and suspension forum - theres already a thread setup for dealing with exactly this. Just to keep the clutter out of this thread.
    Opps, I didn't see this was in another forum. I justed used the New posts search. My fault..

  119. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by wormvine
    Just a quick question cause I got to thinking!
    It's not the stainless steel hollow pin that rotates in the bushing(bush). The steel pin should be pretty tight in the bushing. It's the 6,8, or 10mm bolt that the shock rotates on. Am I correct in this??? So if the spacers are wider than the pin, they will pinch the shock between the mounts and the eyelets and hinder motion and grind against the sides?

    Again I repeat, the shock pin should not spin around inside the eyelet bushing? But repeated stress will wear the bush out and it will need to be replaced eventually. Right?

    Unless we are referring to the top-hat type of shock hardware!

    Negative. The bolt has to pinch the pin style (not top hat style) in the frame. The pin is fixed and the shock rotates on the bushing in the shock. So if the pin isn't fixed you will pretty much wear the bolt and it will fail or bend from the movement.
    Ride Your Bike!

  120. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by dascro
    Tom,

    I've been a big critic of some of your actions here but it seems that in this thread you finally "manned up" and are acting like a complete professional. Maybe even going above and beyond that and cutting through some company BS and giving us the truth. So maybe you can help me out here.

    I am looking for a adjustable travel 160mm fork for my DH hardtail. Will the 55ATA handle this. I've heard a lot of people claim that the tst is a flawed design and will fail or perform poorly in this application. Is this true? i understand who signs your paycheck but I'd appreciate the straght scoop. if you can't comment here a PM would be fine or if you can't comment at all I completely understand. If the design is sound I would love to go for that fork but I guess I could always step up to the 66 ata if the tst is poorly suited.
    55 ATA is a killer fork. The TST has been "adjusted to work properly now. I know there are forks on the shelf without the "adjustment" but again not all forks have the issue. You can believe me when I say, that if you have problems with this fork you will be taken care of. FYI, I ride TST2 everytime I ride, XC600 ATA2 TST2 and I have no issues. I also use a 55 ATA TST2 fork and have no issues. There are a tom of these forks out there and a majority do not have any problems but yes there have been a few more than normal bad seeds.
    Take the chance, get the fork, if it has issues. You know where to find me and you know the straight poop, so rest assured we are striving to make kick arse forks!

    66 ATA is a lot more suited for a light DH bike though. Just think about this, you can extend it a little more than the 160mm when it gets crazy steep. THis would be an added tuning bounce you would be limited with if you went with the 55 ATA. If it was me, I'd go 66 for light DH, say like a park bike. 66 rules the park and the commute back and forth. Then you would also eliminate the TST2 from your equation and know you have the shiznizil.

    Cheers!
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  121. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    Finally MUSA has come around and while it was a long road of disrespect and double talk from Tom, in the end, he realized that only the brutal truth of the trouble within the company would be the only thing people would accept.
    You my freind are not gaining any pionts with **** like this. Double talk? Disrespect? (Disrepectful type removed from here) I really don't have time for you and there you have it. You use a few situations here on the boards to base all your comments on and you never let it go. I answer and help hundreads of people with tech, warranty, tuning, rebuild and moderate opinions with facts every week here. Even the few times I have blown up here I have still come back and solved those issues....or am I double talking again? I just don't dig being stepped on. You continue to though so I will not be replying to your posts much until you have a legit question for me. I will however repair your opinions with facts just so people don't jump on your convoluted bandwagon.
    I'll stop now.

    Our position here changes over time. Just because I am now sharing this info doesn't mean I was keeping secrets. Without the proper "supplies" I have to keep things in a "medium" disclosure mode because I know what's happening and when it would "make sence to give it up. Last thing I need is, "I know it's messed up but I don't have a way to fix it" answers. Now I have what it takes and now you know.

    Have a great day!
    Ride Your Bike!

  122. #122
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    Kinda late to this thread (been on vacation with my bike), but I have one of the earlier 2008 66 ATA versions that has been through many of the problems.

    Its been back to Marz 3 times since February (stuck down and broken rebound out of the box, leaking chambers, and new crown/steerer), plus has the new ATA top cap mentioned by Tom. Needless to say I have had a fair amount of experience with Marz USA customer service int he past few months. Its never fun to ship the fork back, but I have been pleased with their service and turn around time (always a week and half round trip).

    I got the fork back two weeks ago (with new crown) just in time to send the bike for a week of DH in Deer Valley, UT. When the fork works it is absolutely worth it. My Knolly DT with Roco Air TST on the back on 66 ATA up front simply worked.

    Do I wish I could have not had the problems...of course...would I buy another Marz??? Assuming I am done with the problems...most likely. It really is a good fork when working. I think Marz is on the right track with their products, they just have to prove going forward they can produce consistent quality.

  123. #123
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    Hey Tom, before you start crying about me badmouthing you again, and then start claiming you put me on your ignore list, read closer.

    You posted a brutal truth of the company (which appears to have been sold now) and I am posting the brutal truth from the consumer's point of view. You made some shady comments to me and others that didn't paint you in a good light.

    At this point, I was actually praising you for manning up and reversing your defensive position. Read closer because you can even find friends in your worst enemies.

    Now what about Zoke Suspension being sold? I got a tip off from someone last month out there about it, now it seems to have been confirmed.

  124. #124
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    He mentioned the sell in this thread:

    http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=432021

  125. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    Hey Tom, before you start crying about me badmouthing you again, and then start claiming you put me on your ignore list, read closer.

    At this point, I was actually praising you for manning up and reversing your defensive position. Read closer because you can even find friends in your worst enemies.

    Now what about Zoke Suspension being sold? I got a tip off from someone last month out there about it, now it seems to have been confirmed.
    You are not on an ignore this...more like a what this guy list

    As far as being sold.We now have more backing then any other suspension company in the world and most bicycle companies too. 6.5 billion dollars worth. They like our stuff and want us to take over the world. So we are going to give it a shot. That's about it. They are really after the motorcycle end (Harley, Kawi, Suzuki, Yamaha, KTM, etc....of things but believe there's a lot of money to be made in mtb too. We also have a huge line of no name scooter forks that end up on scooters everywhere. I don't even know how many of these they already do..

    Thanks!
    My guns are back in the holsters.
    Ride Your Bike!

  126. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marzocchi Tech Department

    It's true there have been a few people here that have gotten under my skin mainly for their lack of fact and opinions. It's all good. I really could care less but I also believe in what I do so I get 'er done as painlessly as possible. Needless to say it has been painful lately.



    Sorry for the errors and hitchs in your giddy up, but rest assured we are not going anywhere. We are learning from these mistakes and taking action, this being one of them.

    I truly believe in our product and so does everyone from the President to the maid. We want you to be happy and ride your bikes with a big shyte eating grins the whole way. Let's take a deep breath and get down to it.

    I look forward to making it right.

    Sincerily,
    Tom Rogers
    Marzocchi USA
    Research and Development tech
    Jack of all, master of none. (not a marketing guy)

    That's awsome to see that you have at least reponded to this and have put out some great info. Gives me some reassurance about your product. And I still may purchase my first dual crown fork from you guys.

    I'm kinda new to the Mountain bike industry but still it is an industry that strive to survive by making it's customers happy. And with that said, you have to understand if I am going to drop money down for the retail cost of these forks there is now way I would be accepting anything less but a perferct performing fork or bike part that is.

    Com'on you charge in the thousands of dollars for your product and then we as consumers have to take time out of our lives let alone our riding time and saftey to send it back to you, possibly multiple of time to have our thousand dollar fork fixed when it should have been working flawlessly. You would think for that price you wouldn't have to be doing that kind of thing just to have a working product.

    Here is another stand point: Imagine you paid for a fancy thousand dollar toliet. You got it home and installed.In a few weeks all it does is gives you the crapp you didn't want in the first place for the price you paid for. But guess what, now you got to clear all that crapp and figure out why that don't flush as it was advertise it would. And just for you A-holes out there NO there isn't a septic system to be clearing out and yest the water pressure is fine also it was installed by a professional. Just the toilet malfunctioning and not performing like how it should for the price it cost.

    Just that you should be getting what you pay for!!! And I (willing to) pay good hard working Benjamins to get the best stuff out there.

    I hope if or when I do order my new 08' 888 fork it will have all the new problem free parts in them already so that I don't have to send you back my Thousand dollar fork.

  127. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by doodooboi
    I hope if or when I do order my new 08' 888 fork it will have all the new problem free parts in them already so that I don't have to send you back my Thousand dollar fork.

    Me too!



    I like the tiolet analagy too...I was a plumber for a few years out of high school.
    Ride Your Bike!

  128. #128
    sixsixtysix
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    Quote Originally Posted by doodooboi
    I hope if or when I do order my new 08' 888 fork it will have all the new problem free parts in them already so that I don't have to send you back my Thousand dollar fork.

    You better run and hide, Kavu is going to have to put the smack down! Kavu is gonna go 40 on yo self!

  129. #129
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    rc3 has issues - friend has one and it may only have about 200 iles n it, TONS of play, Marzocchi will not warranty it, whatever, it's gonna break soon enough, he rides hard.

    Cheers, thought the review was good! Nice work!

  130. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by dhiflyer
    rc3 has issues - friend has one and it may only have about 200 iles n it, TONS of play, Marzocchi will not warranty it, whatever, it's gonna break soon enough, he rides hard.

    Cheers, thought the review was good! Nice work!
    Why won't zoke warranty it?

  131. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    Why won't zoke warranty it?

    This is a good question!!!!!!!!

    Marz Tech any input to as to why Marz seems to not have been warranting there own products. I know they have but there has been lots of post here stating that customers still had to invest more money on a thousand dollar fork or shock. What's up with that.

    6606 has put down all the cost he has paid and none of it was basically under the warranty????? That just really bugs me if I buy a fork from you guys and you don't warrant your product. Seems my money might be better somewhere else.....

  132. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by dhiflyer
    rc3 has issues - friend has one and it may only have about 200 iles n it, TONS of play, Marzocchi will not warranty it, whatever, it's gonna break soon enough, he rides hard.

    Cheers, thought the review was good! Nice work!

    Hello,
    I read your post and would like to look into it a bit further. Can you have your buddy give me the RA# if he has one or have him contact me. My work e-mail is in you PM's. If the fork isn't correct that's one thing if he is comparing it to a different brand and expects the same from this fork there might be some debate. I have run into that before so that's why I mention it. We all do it a little different.

    Let me know ASAP, I'll see what I can do.

    Thanks for your time.

    Tom Rogers
    Marzocchi R&D
    Ride Your Bike!

  133. #133
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    Dear Marzocchi:


    In order to renew my faith in your company, I shall require a Roco coil rear shock in 7.875 x 2.0. Please PM me for my mailing address so we can get started.


    Your friend,

    Jim311

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    For a sport of dealing such physical pain and such, why the hell are there so many damn whiners on here? Maybe because most of you like to post and not ride..dunno...

    Let's get to the real truth...the top 3 suspension companies out there are Marz. Rock Shox, and Fox. IMO all 3 kick ass and make quality products. However each of them have all had issues within their products...now how they handle them is all up to their own companies customer service/warranty dept.

    On the flip side I have been a Marz user and fan for a long time. A couple of weeks ago I had some parts issue on my fork. After getting quite angry at the fact every single LBS (including my own) in my town does not stock any parts for anything, including the so called Marz. dealers, I called Marz direct and within a week had the parts at my shop. Maybe I am one of the precentage that have had a good customer service experience, but hey whatever. Are you really taking all the steps to get the issues fixed, or going half ass then getting mad and blaming it on the company rather then yourself.

    Bottem line, if you really dislike the product you are using that much, then use another companies. But don't forget that without Marz. innovation to really push the freeride suspension market, we wouldn't have the forks we have today. Rock Shox and Fox sure weren't stepping up to the plate back in the late 90's and early 2000 to build durable big travel forks, they only came aboard after Marz set a standard and a market. So rather you feel Marz forks are up to par of today's standards or not is entirly up to us the consumers, and if we feel it's not, then go rock a Fox 36 or a Rock Shox Totem...Either way your're buying a fork made in Taiwan. So quit *****in and go ride!

  135. #135
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    Marzocchi being considered for purchase by Tenneco..they make Monroe shocks


  136. #136
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    already thread on how marz was actually already purchased by Tenneco

  137. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by DirtGash
    then go rock a Fox 36 or a Rock Shox Totem...Either way your're buying a fork made in Taiwan. So quit *****in and go ride!
    You do know that Fox forks are US made, right?

    I guess you know now.

  138. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    You do know that Fox forks are US made, right?

    I guess you know now.

    Did you know all their parts come from Taiwan?
    Ride Your Bike!

  139. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    You do know that Fox forks are US made, right?

    I guess you know now.

    But did you know that X-Fusion Suspension is and has been for years sub-contracted to make a large amount of Fox Shocks and Forks?

    I guess you do now.

  140. #140
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    Hmmm.

    Quote Originally Posted by DirtGash
    For a sport of dealing such physical pain and such, why the hell are there so many damn whiners on here? Maybe because most of you like to post and not ride..dunno...
    Maybe because some folks want to get what they paid for with their hard earned money, and not have the fork fail when riding or jumping after moderate use. Any consumer who throws down major cash purchasing a performance product that, well doesn't perform so well, has the right to seek answers and vent. Remember this is a consumer web review web site.


    Quote Originally Posted by DirtGash
    Let's get to the real truth...the top 3 suspension companies out there are Marz. Rock Shox, and Fox. IMO all 3 kick ass and make quality products. However each of them have all had issues within their products...now how they handle them is all up to their own companies customer service/warranty dept...
    .

    Thats what this thread brought out, Zoke is having issues and their until recently dedicated and unquestioning consumer base are rightfully pissed, ergo venting their frustrations. As well as confirming to others what they already percieved through first hand experience.

    Quote Originally Posted by DirtGash
    On the flip side I have been a Marz user and fan for a long time. A couple of weeks ago I had some parts issue on my fork. After getting quite angry at the fact every single LBS (including my own) in my town does not stock any parts for anything, including the so called Marz. dealers, I called Marz direct and within a week had the parts at my shop. Maybe I am one of the precentage that have had a good customer service experience, but hey whatever. Are you really taking all the steps to get the issues fixed, or going half ass then getting mad and blaming it on the company rather then yourself....
    .

    You should have seen that in this thread many of the posters were dealing with warranty issues that were not being resolved after paying a premium for waht used to be a relaibel product. Only through persistance were these problems honestly adressed by a company representative directly in this thread.


    Quote Originally Posted by DirtGash
    Bottem line, if you really dislike the product you are using that much, then use another companies. ...
    .

    You hit the nail on the head, many are doing so. Again, thats what this thread was about.


    Quote Originally Posted by DirtGash
    But don't forget that without Marz. innovation to really push the freeride suspension market, we wouldn't have the forks we have today. Rock Shox and Fox sure weren't stepping up to the plate back in the late 90's and early 2000 to build durable big travel forks, they only came aboard after Marz set a standard and a market. ...
    .

    Yes, that's why we bought them in droves. That, and until recently the "reliability".


    Quote Originally Posted by DirtGash
    So quit *****in and go ride!
    You should take your own advice here.

  141. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by DirtGash
    But did you know that X-Fusion Suspension is and has been for years sub-contracted to make a large amount of Fox Shocks and Forks?

    I guess you do now.
    So is X-Fusion the ones forgetting to add oil to the 36's before shipping them out?

  142. #142
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    RC3 no warrany??!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    Why won't zoke warranty it?

    Well, As I understand, this particular RC3 fork has huge play (back and forth with front brake on), and even thought I have not got front row seats to the "deal" I understood from him that the fork will not be covered under warranty because aparently the play is supposed to be normal? Well I have felt it my self, and it is like feeling a RST shock or similar, my 888RC2X has atleast 80% less play than that RC3.

    I have no clue to what's going on with that fork, or even if the fork still is under same ownership. Either way, I want to mention to this board that Tom contacted me directly to try and get this taken care of.

    -This shows that Marzocchi does care about the problem, and I guess we'll just have to see what happens with all this.... -Cheers to Marzocchi-Tom

    E

  143. #143
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    Roco WC coil---3 months old
    66Rc3-----2 months old
    both shipping out todau for warrantee repairs. when they work they really work, but they should work longer than around 100 runs before major repairs.

    if they arent back in a month im going to a rock shox boxxer and a dhx coil. if back in less than a month, ill still be a loyal customer. i hope the guys working these issues have solutions that stick longer than a few weeks.

  144. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by pwrtrainer

    if they arent back in a month im going to a rock shox boxxer and a dhx coil. if back in less than a month, ill still be a loyal customer. i hope the guys working these issues have solutions that stick longer than a few weeks.

  145. #145
    sixsixtysix
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    Quote Originally Posted by pwrtrainer
    Roco WC coil---3 months old
    66Rc3-----2 months old
    both shipping out todau for warrantee repairs. when they work they really work, but they should work longer than around 100 runs before major repairs.

    if they arent back in a month im going to a rock shox boxxer and a dhx coil. if back in less than a month, ill still be a loyal customer. i hope the guys working these issues have solutions that stick longer than a few weeks.

    I think I saw your shock and fork on the bench at the shop the other day 66RC3 1.5 and a WC Roco right?). I was like, hey look! More stuff for warranty! Don't you know, all of us AZ riders break everything because we are such hacks?

    Pretty soon, that shop is going to need shipping containers to send all the stuff back to Marz to get fixed....

  146. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by sixsixtysix
    I think I saw your shock and fork on the bench at the shop the other day 66RC3 1.5 and a WC Roco right?). I was like, hey look! More stuff for warranty! Don't you know, all of us AZ riders break everything because we are such hacks?

    Pretty soon, that shop is going to need shipping containers to send all the stuff back to Marz to get fixed....
    yep, that was mine. rode @ deer valley a week ago and the fork shot some goo like a teenager on prom night, then the fork bottomed too easily. the shock was extending too slowly with the rebound as fast as it could go. goddamn dust, and short bus, and flag and rocks and dust.....god i wish we had trees here. oh well, there is always the road bike........just kidding..

  147. #147
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    What's the shop name and RA#?

    Quote Originally Posted by pwrtrainer
    Roco WC coil---3 months old
    66Rc3-----2 months old
    both shipping out todau for warrantee repairs. when they work they really work, but they should work longer than around 100 runs before major repairs.

    if they arent back in a month im going to a rock shox boxxer and a dhx coil. if back in less than a month, ill still be a loyal customer. i hope the guys working these issues have solutions that stick longer than a few weeks.

    Hi, I sent you a PM as well.... I just read your comments about your problems too after I sent the PM. What is the spring rate and bike you have the shock on. A lot of times, once you go down to a 400# or less spring you need to revalve to a lighter setting. The valving is based around slightly higher spring forces (rebound) and leverage rates (compression).

    Where did the fork leak from?

    Turn around once received here, as of this week, 8 days in house.

    MTD
    Ride Your Bike!

  148. #148
    sixsixtysix
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marzocchi Tech Department
    Turn around once received here, as of this week, 8 days in house.

    MTD
    SWEET! Does that mean I may actually see my Roco that has been sitting there for 7 weeks sometime soon?

  149. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marzocchi Tech Department
    Hello,
    My name is Tom Rogers. I have worked for Marzocchi for 5 years doing development, pro rider support, tech service, and have helped to develop the Rear shock line. I work for Manitou for 10 years and came up with a few designs such as the lock-out, TPC, and TPC+. The reason I say this is so yo know I'm not here to market anything but to try to help solve some of our issues (we know we have) in the market. I truely have some answers to your questions.

    It's true there have been a few people here that have gotten under my skin mainly for their lack of fact and opinions. It's all good. I really could care less but I also believe in what I do so I get 'er done as painlessly as possible. Needless to say it has been painful lately.

    I have been testing and working with Marzocchi Italy in testing and validating product since the day I started. Some of you might have even dealt with me first hand the last 4 years in Whistler. I'm the tall red headed guy that camps at the Marzocchi rig as the base of the mountain. I do it for a lot more than a pay check. I love bikes, we all do here.

    So as far as the fall of the big M. We might have had a hitch in our giddy up but fall we will not.

    I thought I would throw out some facts here to try to clear some of the air. Here goes;

    Bushing play;
    Based on the first lower assemlies we got, the bushing were at the maximum tolerance. We modified the mold, and then tested more, same result, this is not an easy task. Production hit, our deadline passed. We notified the manufactuer that we needed to hit the numbers, regardless we still got parts at the max tolerence. FYI, we do a 70 piont digital inspection on all four bushings, we knew they were at the max. So as the tool runs, it wears. When it wears, it gets bigger. Bang, ouch, stumble, product continues to be made. The vendor (same vendor as we always had) of this part is called out and held responsible for this error without question. We then have the time to modify the mold. Now check this out. Our tolerance is .002"(.05mm) on the diameter. Now the stanchions have the same tolerence with no overlap on the two dimension. Stanchions are produced at the minimum diameter. Now there you have it. .004" of slop. .004"!!! That's it. So as we get better and better casting using the new tool we drive the tolerance down to .0015"(.0381mm). Super crazy fitting. The stanchions stay the same. Also to note, as a fork is ridden it wears in and out....stumble, bang, bump. That hurts.

    So, as of now we have lower assemblies that are spot on. I know our techs were having to give people the "it's exceptable" line to address this mainly due to not having anything around to help the problem. The wheel keeps turning and deadlines have to be meet. I am now sitting on a bunch of new lower assemblies that are as good as they get. Make the call. You will have to send it in and have it inspected and changed to a new one. Just ride your bike and when you have the time, get it to us. We'll fix it up.

    ATA
    ATA is a very tricky cartridge to assemble. One small error and it doesn't hold air. First we had wind down, we addressed it by increasing the detent groove so the mechanish would turn under compression loads during riding. It worked ok but we still had issue. We now have a top adjuster cap that assists this issue. It actually locks into the top spline of the top cap. The detent has been under a microscope to make sure it is being produced correctly.

    Air leaking, assembly error of a few wrong o-rings. Just like the space shuttle, it fails. Problem has been addressed but the damage is done.

    Crushed shaft and body, the parts were being clamped and ovalized when being assembled. The tool has been changed, problem solved, but damage done.

    TST with limited travel
    The endcap seal is unidirectional, It holds the oil in but it became appearent that the lubrication oil was being rammed into the cartridge on hard compressions. Ouch, we never saw it until it was too late. This design was origianlly used with grease being used for lubrication not oil. ooops.
    We now have a new and improved endcap for both TST2 and TST micro. It seals from inside out and outside in.

    For the most part those are the major problems we have been faced with for this model year but we will garantee that we are doing everything we can to keep from stumbling anymore and to solve all your issues.

    You have to admit that by me posting this on a public forum that we are not trying to pull the wool over anyones eyes. We just want to fix this and get the ball rolling again.

    As far as ROCO's having issues. I haven't seen anything that is consistant to put a finger on what or why we have seen some failures. Check your mounting hardware and make sure the shock can rotate once the shock has been tightened into the bike. This can be done by taking the shock and hardware and pinching the hardware in a vise. If the shock rotates seperately from the shock you are good, if not, you will have a premature failure. If the mounting hardware doesn't allow the shock to rotate on the eyelets, the shock will fail prematurely. I have seen this and has been addressed but it could happen. Check it.


    FYI, I am normally over in the shocks and suspension forum and can also be PM'd to try to help get your issues resolved. Same service you will get calling here dispite opinions made here.

    Sorry for the errors and hitchs in your giddy up, but rest assured we are not going anywhere. We are learning from these mistakes and taking action, this being one of them.

    I truly believe in our product and so does everyone from the President to the maid. We want you to be happy and ride your bikes with a big shyte eating grins the whole way. Let's take a deep breath and get down to it.

    I look forward to making it right.

    Sincerily,
    Tom Rogers
    Marzocchi USA
    Research and Development tech
    Jack of all, master of none. (not a marketing guy)
    nice to know some thing is being done.

    i had always wanted to stay loya to marzocchi but i got lured away with a chaep pair of boxxers and with the much needed travel adjustment, but i do have a freand who will pay any thing to a full marzocchi setup, oh and this kindov isont realated but is the motocross marzocchi the same companly to the mtb one? as if you go to www.marzocchi.co.uk to takes you to a motocross english only site.
    Quote Originally Posted by [Orge
    ]
    This problem could quite simply be solved if people would stop buying Konas.

  150. #150
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    Damn, I'm glad I bought Sixty's old 06 RC2X when I did great fork. Thanks again B, sorry to hear about your misfortune with the new fork. Almost everyone I've talked to with an 08 zoke 888 or 66 has had at least one problem. Most have been the same problems Tom described in his post, and almost every one was denied a warranty claim. They either shelled out the cash for repairs or bought a Fox 40. Good to see that Marzocchi is finally sacking up and admitting fault. I guess the lesson here is that we should all wait until half way through the model year to buy our new suspension products so they can work out the kinks and be able to warranty any leftover lemmons . Hell they are usually a little cheaper by that time anyways

  151. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by flOw dOwn
    Damn, I'm glad I bought Sixty's old 06 RC2X when I did great fork. Thanks again B, sorry to hear about your misfortune with the new fork. Almost everyone I've talked to with an 08 zoke 888 or 66 has had at least one problem. Most have been the same problems Tom described in his post, and almost every one was denied a warranty claim. They either shelled out the cash for repairs or bought a Fox 40. Good to see that Marzocchi is finally sacking up and admitting fault. I guess the lesson here is that we should all wait until half way through the model year to buy our new suspension products so they can work out the kinks and be able to warranty any leftover lemmons . Hell they are usually a little cheaper by that time anyways

    Yeah man, I bit on the "upgraditous" and ended up getting bit. Oh well, live and learn right?

    Hows the old RC2X holding up for ya?

  152. #152
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    I guess newer ain't always better.

    The 06 is plush... the best fork I've ever owned hands down. Definitely inspired confidence in my riding, and, knock on wood, I haven't had an issue yet. I think your original words were "arguably the best Italian fork ever made". You didn't lie . Honestly, it was a better deal than I thought I was getting at the time on a used fork.

  153. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by flOw dOwn
    Damn, I'm glad I bought Sixty's old 06 RC2X when I did great fork. Thanks again B, sorry to hear about your misfortune with the new fork. Almost everyone I've talked to with an 08 zoke 888 or 66 has had at least one problem. Most have been the same problems Tom described in his post, and almost every one was denied a warranty claim. They either shelled out the cash for repairs or bought a Fox 40. Good to see that Marzocchi is finally sacking up and admitting fault. I guess the lesson here is that we should all wait until half way through the model year to buy our new suspension products so they can work out the kinks and be able to warranty any leftover lemmons . Hell they are usually a little cheaper by that time anyways
    That sucks. I'd hope now that Zoke fessed up they'd compensate, but yeah right.

  154. #154
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    RA# please!

    Quote Originally Posted by sixsixtysix
    SWEET! Does that mean I may actually see my Roco that has been sitting there for 7 weeks sometime soon?

    Your RA# is what??? Shop name? Rebuild kits showed up today. I'll rebuild it myself. I think I know my way around these things....I have a hammer, screwdriver and some JB weld.

    Let me know your RA# so I can rebuild the right one.
    Just kidding about the hammer, screwdriver comment. Humor is what keeps us coming back for more!
    Ride Your Bike!

  155. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim311
    Dear Marzocchi:


    In order to renew my faith in your company, I shall require a Roco coil rear shock in 7.875 x 2.0. Please PM me for my mailing address so we can get started.


    Your friend,

    Jim311

    Suuuuuuure no problem. I'll give you mine.
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  156. #156
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    One in the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by bxxer rider
    nice to know some thing is being done.

    i had always wanted to stay loya to marzocchi but i got lured away with a chaep pair of boxxers and with the much needed travel adjustment, but i do have a freand who will pay any thing to a full marzocchi setup, oh and this kindov isont realated but is the motocross marzocchi the same companly to the mtb one? as if you go to www.marzocchi.co.uk to takes you to a motocross english only site.
    Our techs tune them both. We sell them both. One minute we are tuning moto the next minte we are tuning mtb. They all go out the same door.
    Ride Your Bike!

  157. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by flOw dOwn
    I guess newer ain't always better.

    The 06 is plush... the best fork I've ever owned hands down. Definitely inspired confidence in my riding, and, knock on wood, I haven't had an issue yet. I think your original words were "arguably the best Italian fork ever made". You didn't lie . Honestly, it was a better deal than I thought I was getting at the time on a used fork.

    Glad to hear it. I got a deal on it when it was new, so I felt guilty selling it for any more than I sold it to you for but 05's were going for about the same price. That fork should take good care of you for a while, it was babied as far as its service and maintenance was concerned. Fresh oil every 3-6 months will keep that thing running like butter for years

  158. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marzocchi Tech Department
    Your RA# is what??? Shop name? Rebuild kits showed up today. I'll rebuild it myself. I think I know my way around these things....I have a hammer, screwdriver and some JB weld.

    Let me know your RA# so I can rebuild the right one.
    Just kidding about the hammer, screwdriver comment. Humor is what keeps us coming back for more!

    I don't remember the RA number, its been so long.....

    I kid, I kid.

    Its a 07 Roco TST-R, 7.87x2.25 from Phoenix. No bike shop, I send you guys all my stuff personally. If you need my name and phone number I'll be happy to PM it to you.

    Oh, and the joke about JB weld, don't laugh, its what is holding the compression adjuster knob on my 888RC3... You can fix the world with JB weld and Duct Tape.

  159. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by sixsixtysix
    I don't remember the RA number, its been so long.....

    I kid, I kid.

    Its a 07 Roco TST-R, 7.87x2.25 from Phoenix. No bike shop, I send you guys all my stuff personally. If you need my name and phone number I'll be happy to PM it to you.

    Oh, and the joke about JB weld, don't laugh, its what is holding the compression adjuster knob on my 888RC3... You can fix the world with JB weld and Duct Tape.

    PM me your name it will speed things up.

    In the words of the great Doug Bradbury, originator of Manitou, "give me JB weld and a hacksaw and I can fix anything." We see it all here too.
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  160. #160
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    Italian or Taiwan....

    Quote Originally Posted by sixsixtysix
    Yes, I wrote the review, and honestly took as objective as an approach to it as I do all reviews.

    I have LITERALLY had one of my 3 Roco's in the shop all but 3 weeks of 2008. Read that again. At one point or another, one of my 3 Roco's has been at Marzocchi getting repaired for all but 3 weeks out of the entire year to date. In fact, there is one there now, which has been there for 6 weeks waiting for parts. They come back, they are "repaired" and within a month or two, the same problem arises or something else blows on it. That to me is inexcusable for the amount of lost riding time and the money spent on the products.

    So yes, in my eyes, the "Mighty M" has fallen from grace, and IMO are heading down the same slippery slope Manitou did in 2005-2006 before needing to be rescued by Hayes. Cheap Taiwanese manufacturing + overloaded customer service = bad customer satifaction. They need to start designing the same solid products they did before SR Suntour took over manufacturing and stand by their products in any way possible if they are to save their reputation.
    I have your shock in my hands right now, muhahahahaha! JK

    Here's some details. It's been here once before for the same thing, it is an Italian made shock, not a SR / Taiwan produced shock. The reason for the leak is a scored shock shaft most likely from lack of maintainence say like from never cleaning it...

    I have some spare parts that I will put on it and replace. It will work again. I only mention this and it's not an excuse, I'm just trying to state the cause and effect behind the failure. I am also guilty as most riders are about not taking care of our bikes enough.

    Just something to think about, the same rough gritty rocks you ride over and around have nasty rough and gritty dust being spit out as you shred the AZ desert and I'm sure you have ridden in a few thunderstorms there too, so muddy gritty dirt getting flinged on every part of your bike. That rough gritty stuff will eat parts alive. Without some maintainence the shock will die again garanteed. I don't even care if you pressure wash it to get that hard to reach part clean but it will help to extend the life of your bike period with little stuff like this. I am only assuming but giving you some feedback (I'm sure you know) on how to extend the life of your parts. Just like drivetrains....I eat them alive.

    That being said, the SR parts are better quality, not only the surface finish but the material is better, believe it or not. So I will get 'er fixed and see what we can get out of this shock this time.

    I hope this helps you some. Sorry again for the problem. It should leave today
    Ride Your Bike!

  161. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marzocchi Tech Department
    I have your shock in my hands right now, muhahahahaha! JK

    Here's some details. It's been here once before for the same thing, it is an Italian made shock, not a SR / Taiwan produced shock. The reason for the leak is a scored shock shaft most likely from lack of maintainence say like from never cleaning it...

    I have some spare parts that I will put on it and replace. It will work again. I only mention this and it's not an excuse, I'm just trying to state the cause and effect behind the failure. I am also guilty as most riders are about not taking care of our bikes enough.

    Just something to think about, the same rough gritty rocks you ride over and around have nasty rough and gritty dust being spit out as you shred the AZ desert and I'm sure you have ridden in a few thunderstorms there too, so muddy gritty dirt getting flinged on every part of your bike. That rough gritty stuff will eat parts alive. Without some maintainence the shock will die again garanteed. I don't even care if you pressure wash it to get that hard to reach part clean but it will help to extend the life of your bike period with little stuff like this. I am only assuming but giving you some feedback (I'm sure you know) on how to extend the life of your parts. Just like drivetrains....I eat them alive.

    That being said, the SR parts are better quality, not only the surface finish but the material is better, believe it or not. So I will get 'er fixed and see what we can get out of this shock this time.

    I hope this helps you some. Sorry again for the problem. It should leave today
    That's actually very odd...

    That shock has never seen the mud, ever. It's been exclusively used in the desert and we get maybe 10 days of rain here a year, hardly worth going out riding in when its sunny the other 355 days a year . I think just about anyone on here who knows me personally can vouch that I take better care of my rigs than most. It is never put away dirty. I think the only person who takes better care of his bike is Markskee, who actually carries a California duster on the trail with him to occasionally dust his bike.... while he is riding (No Joke)

    Maybe a rock got up in there, but I know I checked the shock shaft when I pulled the spring and it looked ok, but then again it was covered in oil.

    Can the scoring a wear thing? Like from play in the hardware? Flex in the frame?

  162. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by sixsixtysix
    That's actually very odd...

    That shock has never seen the mud, ever. It's been exclusively used in the desert and we get maybe 10 days of rain here a year, hardly worth going out riding in when its sunny the other 355 days a year . I think just about anyone on here who knows me personally can vouch that I take better care of my rigs than most. It is never put away dirty. I think the only person who takes better care of his bike is Markskee, who actually carries a California duster on the trail with him to occasionally dust his bike.... while he is riding (No Joke)

    Maybe a rock got up in there, but I know I checked the shock shaft when I pulled the spring and it looked ok, but then again it was covered in oil.

    Can the scoring a wear thing? Like from play in the hardware? Flex in the frame?

    Yeah it sounds weird. I have ridden there and know what it's like as well. They're just fine scratches running vertically...it looks like it's from being dirty. Regardless. We are getting it going.

    FYI, I just looked a doppler radar and you have a few thunderstorms in the area. There's a flash flood warning just east of quarzite heading your way. I know there's never mud....and the riding around there is stellar!!

    Let us know how it works out for you.
    Ride Your Bike!

  163. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marzocchi Tech Department
    Yeah it sounds weird. I have ridden there and know what it's like as well. They're just fine scratches running vertically...it looks like it's from being dirty. Regardless. We are getting it going.

    FYI, I just looked a doppler radar and you have a few thunderstorms in the area. There's a flash flood warning just east of quarzite heading your way. I know there's never mud....and the riding around there is stellar!!

    Let us know how it works out for you.

    Thanks Tom. We actually have been getting slammed by the Monsoon over the last week, it has all but washed away our trails. Or as many locals look at it "improved them" but giving them a fresh start

    But as of now, its like 195 and sunny outside

  164. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marzocchi Tech Department
    Hi, I sent you a PM as well.... I just read your comments about your problems too after I sent the PM. What is the spring rate and bike you have the shock on. A lot of times, once you go down to a 400# or less spring you need to revalve to a lighter setting. The valving is based around slightly higher spring forces (rebound) and leverage rates (compression).

    Where did the fork leak from?

    Turn around once received here, as of this week, 8 days in house.

    MTD
    on a blindside, pm replied to.

  165. #165
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    id kinda have to agree. well, i havent had many problems with my rc3 wc, but i know my buddy has had a lot of problems iwth his regular rc3. he gets that clanking that was mentioned, and his fork after like the first day of riding had absolutely no rebound to it...almost as if the fork was blown. luckily, the main mech where me n him work managed to fix it, but still gave me bad vibes. oh well, ill see how mine rides for the rest of the season
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  166. #166
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    I have had Marzocchi forks thought the years,they always been great.

    But now I am shopping for a single crown 160mm,I was thinking in the 55 ata, but i am not going to gamble to see if I get a "good one" that is why for the 1st time I will not buy a Marzo,I will go for a Fox 36 float. Forks now days are very over price to buy a product with problems.

  167. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by cheloco
    But now I am shopping for a single crown 160mm,I was thinking in the 55 ata, but i am not going to gamble to see if I get a "good one" that is why for the 1st time I will not buy a Marzo,I will go for a Fox 36 float. Forks now days are very over price to buy a product with problems.
    i was thinking that too.

    I have been riding Marzocchis since 2000. I owned an old Z1, then a 02 Z1, and still own an 04 Z1FR, 03 Z1FR, 04 SHiver SC, 02 Monster T, and an 02 SUper T.

    when someone is asking 1600+ dollars for a fork carrying an Italian name but completely made in Taiwan, I would rather pay less and get one that is assembled in the US(Fox).

    I have no illusion that the switch from HSCV to SSV valve in a formerly highly regarded fork as the SUper T as nothing more than pure greed. You guys at 'Zocchi managed to trash the name of the Z1 into "Z1 FR III", SUper T into a fork with Jr T damper, and 888 and 66 with the "RCV" and still manage to get close to 1k.

    example: the original Z1 was so successful that people all wanted one. great. so along cam Z1 Wedge. then there was Z1FR to mark the hig end ones. Then what? along came Z1FRIIIs. People I know were asking me "dude, I bought the Z1 FR you recommeded and it feels worse then my Black. I look at the fork, behold, the Z1 FR III. I think there was also Z1 Sport, etc. It made me almost long for the days of the Z3.5s.



    I guess watering down perfectly fine forks with proven dampers and still calling it the same name(i believe the technical term is bait-and-switch) was not illegal but down right perplexing to me, which made sense when you guys when to Taiwan altogether. Heck, even Rockshox puts the same basic damper on all the range of the same fork with more adjustment. Why should I pay 800 for a 66 "RCV" when I can get a 36R for a few bucks more?

    Believe me I have been loyal to Marzocchi for a long, long time now, and I will use the forks I have now and buy new old stock Marzocchis from pre-05 as much as I can, but my next fork will be a Fox or a Manitou. THis is nothing less than a frustrated user who is saddened to see how the guys in Taiwan are running Marzocchi these days.

    and by the way, my 02 Super T is still running strong, plush as ever
    Last edited by remember1453; 08-11-2008 at 12:28 AM.

  168. #168
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    go zoke, my 07 ata is working wonderful. MY 08 55tst2 got warrantied with a new cart in less than a week, and the 08 888 wc performed flawlessly at mammoth, oh and yes, I road that fvcker hard. The fork is the stiffest, smoothest, best damping fork I've ever had.

  169. #169
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    Don't forget the simultaneous marketing of the "All Mountain"series with the "AM" series. The latter was totally misleading and a huge downgrade.

    As far as the 36 comparison goes, one can actually easily buy any of the three RC2-equipped forks for far less than the $800 figure you quoted for the 66 RCV. At the least, that's limited to the 2008's and within a couple months of their release, they were available at some 400 off retail, in the case of the TALAS RC2.

  170. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by remember1453
    i was thinking that too.

    I have been riding Marzocchis since 2000. I owned an old Z1, then a 02 Z1, and still own an 04 Z1FR, 03 Z1FR, 04 SHiver SC, 02 Monster T, and an 02 SUper T.

    when someone is asking 1600+ dollars for a fork carrying an Italian name but completely made in Taiwan, I would rather pay less and get one that is assembled in the US(Fox).

    I have no illusion that the switch from HSCV to SSV valve in a formerly highly regarded fork as the SUper T as nothing more than pure greed. You guys at 'Zocchi managed to trash the name of the Z1 into "Z1 FR III", SUper T into a fork with Jr T damper, and 888 and 66 with the "RCV" and still manage to get close to 1k.

    example: the original Z1 was so successful that people all wanted one. great. so along cam Z1 Wedge. then there was Z1FR to mark the hig end ones. Then what? along came Z1FRIIIs. People I know were asking me "dude, I bought the Z1 FR you recommeded and it feels worse then my Black. I look at the fork, behold, the Z1 FR III. I think there was also Z1 Sport, etc. It made me almost long for the days of the Z3.5s.



    I guess watering down perfectly fine forks with proven dampers and still calling it the same name(i believe the technical term is bait-and-switch) was not illegal but down right perplexing to me, which made sense when you guys when to Taiwan altogether. Heck, even Rockshox puts the same basic damper on all the range of the same fork with more adjustment. Why should I pay 800 for a 66 "RCV" when I can get a 36R for a few bucks more?

    Believe me I have been loyal to Marzocchi for a long, long time now, and I will use the forks I have now and buy new old stock Marzocchis from pre-05 as much as I can, but my next fork will be a Fox or a Manitou. THis is nothing less than a frustrated user who is saddened to see how the guys in Taiwan are running Marzocchi these days.

    and by the way, my 02 Super T is still running strong, plush as ever

    Hmmm, IMO, If, IF there is someone ruining a Zokie fork; it is not the Taiwanese that is doing it, it would have to be ok'd by the powers that be at Marzocchi. I'm sure the Taiwanese aren't making changes to the forks w/o Marzocchi being aware and then shipping them world wide.....it all falls back in Marzocchi's lap. Lets just be clear about that....common sense.
    "Why are you willing to take so much & leave others in need...just because you can?"

  171. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by man w/ one hand
    Hmmm, IMO, If, IF there is someone ruining a Zokie fork; it is not the Taiwanese that is doing it, it would have to be ok'd by the powers that be at Marzocchi. I'm sure the Taiwanese aren't making changes to the forks w/o Marzocchi being aware and then shipping them world wide.....it all falls back in Marzocchi's lap. Lets just be clear about that....common sense.
    Excellent point. Many of the problems everyone is having with the Zokie forks are not assembly or manufacturing issues. They are design issue. I can understand how shipping the manufacturing over to Taiwan could cause some manufacturing issues, but I'm pretty sure the Taiwanese didn't design the faulty TST cartridge or the uses ATA. I'd much rather have some early manufacturing "bugs" than the serious design issues that seem to be appearing.

  172. #172
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    That Bullit would look brilliant with a 888RC3 on it.....

  173. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by man w/ one hand
    Hmmm, IMO, If, IF there is someone ruining a Zokie fork; it is not the Taiwanese that is doing it, it would have to be ok'd by the powers that be at Marzocchi. I'm sure the Taiwanese aren't making changes to the forks w/o Marzocchi being aware and then shipping them world wide.....it all falls back in Marzocchi's lap. Lets just be clear about that....common sense.
    if that's all you can pick fault with my post then I suppose we really have more in agreement than otherwise.

    Look at it this way, Does it matter, as far as semantics go," where" the corporate decisions are made? It all ends up watering down the Marzocchi name that so many people (including me) have come to trust.

    At the end of the day, how Italian is a new Marzocchi fork? the name?

  174. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by 006_007
    That Bullit would look brilliant with a 888RC3 on it.....
    trying to track down a set of 05 170mm 888R as we speak..

  175. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by remember1453
    trying to track down a set of 05 170mm 888R as we speak..
    A really nice fork - made even better with a set of go-ride or risse lowrider crowns.

  176. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by dascro
    Excellent point. Many of the problems everyone is having with the Zokie forks are not assembly or manufacturing issues. They are design issue. I can understand how shipping the manufacturing over to Taiwan could cause some manufacturing issues, but I'm pretty sure the Taiwanese didn't design the faulty TST cartridge or the uses ATA. I'd much rather have some early manufacturing "bugs" than the serious design issues that seem to be appearing.
    The other big part of the problem was Zoke rushing new"tech"to market without adequate testing and fine tuning. I'll likely get another angry pm about this, but such things as too high bath oil causing the TST to hydro lock to a degree is more evidence, along with the bad seals, the odd shim/piston layouts, etc.

  177. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    The other big part of the problem was Zoke rushing new"tech"to market without adequate testing and fine tuning. I'll likely get another angry pm about this, but such things as too high bath oil causing the TST to hydro lock to a degree is more evidence, along with the bad seals, the odd shim/piston layouts, etc.
    Yeah they seem to let the end user pay them to do their testing.

    I actually hope that Tom, from his presence here, sees the trend of what forks and dampers are highly praised by the majority of the people here. Rockshox's motion control, Manitou's TPC+ and Marz's RC2. Release a simple fork that uses one of these proven systems, price it accordingly and watch them fly off the shelves. Look at RS's Pike and Domain as examples. I don't have any experience with Fox so i can't comment there.

    I bought a 2007 Z1 anniversary edition mostly out of curiousity after hearing your strong recommendation of that fork and was simply blown away. Incredibly tunable, easy to work on, simple, very little to break/fail. I actualy haven't even weighed in as for what it is, a bit of extra weigh means nothing. Bring this fork back and watch Marz rise to the top again.

    I'm not one for "conspiracy theories" but i wonder if the push to release these new technologies that are causing all the problems are so people will buy more forks. Unless I turn into a weigh weenie I can't see why I would want anything else in 150mm than the Z1 i have for the next several years. Perhaps these forks that aren't easily user serviceable are designed to make it appealling to buy a new one every one or two years???

  178. #178
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    Well if you think about it, the majority of us probably have a new bike every couple of years. But to spend a grand for something that fails prematurely is absurd. I think the push for tons of extra "technology" is leading to these failure rates. To put it simply, the more complicated something is, the more likely it is to fail. More parts = more opportunities to fail. Keep it simple and you'll keep it reliable. With the push for adjustable travel, high speed rebound, low speed rebound, lockout, compression, terrain selection technology.. there's so much crap packed into so little space that things are bound to fail unless they're bulletproof. Add that to the fact that this stuff is being abused and ridden HARD by a variety of different skills, styles, and sizes.. and you're destined for failure.

  179. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim311
    Well if you think about it, the majority of us probably have a new bike every couple of years. But to spend a grand for something that fails prematurely is absurd. I think the push for tons of extra "technology" is leading to these failure rates. To put it simply, the more complicated something is, the more likely it is to fail. More parts = more opportunities to fail. Keep it simple and you'll keep it reliable. With the push for adjustable travel, high speed rebound, low speed rebound, lockout, compression, terrain selection technology.. there's so much crap packed into so little space that things are bound to fail unless they're bulletproof. Add that to the fact that this stuff is being abused and ridden HARD by a variety of different skills, styles, and sizes.. and you're destined for failure.
    I agree. Though I do prefer to buy high quality forks and take them with me when I swap bikes.

    And yeah, part of the problem is that we get so many adjustments and these added complexities cause failures. Couple that with the demand for longer travel and lighter weight and you have a recipe for junk.

    the question I have to ask is: Are we, the consumers, demanding all these technologies and adjustments, or are the manufacturers creating a demand for their products by telling us that we need all these adjustments and features. I tend to believe its the latter.

    yeah, these forks are being ridden pretty hard. But no harder than dirt motors have for 20+ years. I have a little knowledge about that sport/industry and I don't seem to recall nearly as many fork issues there as I do with mountain bikes. I understand the weigh has to be less but the weight of the rider and bike is significantly less as well. The abuse is also less. Lets not forget that weight is a big concern in that sport as well. Its not directly comparable, but certainly worth mentioning and thinking about.

  180. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim311
    Well if you think about it, the majority of us probably have a new bike every couple of years. But to spend a grand for something that fails prematurely is absurd. I think the push for tons of extra "technology" is leading to these failure rates. To put it simply, the more complicated something is, the more likely it is to fail. More parts = more opportunities to fail. Keep it simple and you'll keep it reliable. With the push for adjustable travel, high speed rebound, low speed rebound, lockout, compression, terrain selection technology.. there's so much crap packed into so little space that things are bound to fail unless they're bulletproof. Add that to the fact that this stuff is being abused and ridden HARD by a variety of different skills, styles, and sizes.. and you're destined for failure.
    This is EXACTLY why I went with the Domain over all the other offerings. Yeah it's a bit heavier (6.1lbs) but I'd rather have heavier and reliable, than light and problematic any day..
    When I was searching for a 160mm travel fork I was looking for simplicity and reliability.
    I had narrowed my choices down to the 07 Manitou Nixon Elite and the Domain 318 U-Turn.
    Both simple reliable forks that are easy to work on..
    The reason I didn't go with the Nixon is I couldn't find a 20mm TA version and the Domain was $50 cheaper..
    If Marzocchi had a fork similar to the Z1 anniversary edition or a 55 with RC2 at the time that would have been on my list as well.

  181. #181
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    I too, own a Domain 318. Plush and bombproof. My only problem so far was a leaky rebound knob.. solved by a replacement crush washer.

  182. #182
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    Seems like we all think alike. I currently have a Nixon elite and Marz Z1 anniversary. I am building a DH/FR bike and will be using a 180mm Domain 318. I just wish it came with u-turn.

  183. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim311
    I too, own a Domain 318. Plush and bombproof. My only problem so far was a leaky rebound knob.. solved by a replacement crush washer.
    Same here..I went to the hardware store and picked up an O ring. It's been fine since.

    Now I'm looking for a similar type fork to replace my Z150 SL Frankenfork on my trail bike
    "Hint Marzocchi Hint"

  184. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by remember1453
    if that's all you can pick fault with my post then I suppose we really have more in agreement than otherwise.

    Look at it this way, Does it matter, as far as semantics go," where" the corporate decisions are made? It all ends up watering down the Marzocchi name that so many people (including me) have come to trust.

    At the end of the day, how Italian is a new Marzocchi fork? the name?

    Agree 100% w/JC. Marzocchi is rushing stuff to market w/o adequate testing. I expect almost bomb proof stuff from Marzocchi, but it ain't happenin'. The engineering is coming out of Italy and going to the manf. facility,(no matter where), and the product is going to market w/their, (Zokies), blessing, it's their decisions and their choices...i.e. it falls on Marzocchi's shoulders, period. Taiwan is being pushed under the bus as a scape goat IMO. How'd you like to be a sponsored racer and pull a fork out of the box to ride and it perform like so many have described through out this enormous post.
    "Why are you willing to take so much & leave others in need...just because you can?"

  185. #185
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    SixSixtySix

    Quote Originally Posted by sixsixtysix
    Yes, I wrote the review, and honestly took as objective as an approach to it as I do all reviews. I don't think that anything I wrote was unwarranted considering how many problems this fork has had, it could have been a lot more negative.

    The fork was purchased brand new in January 08 at full retail cost, so don't think I get some free swag to test out and then kiss the manufacturer's ass, all the products I ride, I pay for so that reviews are as neutral as if they were used by you or anybody else.

    The fork has been ridden on average of 3-5 times a week every week since I bought it and probably has close to 700-800 miles on it. Its unfortunate, but it's been nothing but problems since day one. I will say that it feels good when it actually works, its just the keeping it in one piece that's been the issue. It is definitely a SR Suntour product in those regards.

    I have been riding Zoke products for years and loved my 06 888RC2X to the point I kick myself everyday for selling it. It was the best DH fork Zoke has ever made. The 08 stuff just doesn't live up to the tradition of quality and performance that Marzocchi has established over the years.

    I won't get into details, because I don't own their other 08 forks, but plenty of my friends do, and they have all had problems, from 66's with blown seals, bad bushings, improperly installed cartridges to 55's with bad and incorrectly installed bushings and blown TST cartridges. The problems are rampant and well documented across the 08 lineup, just look in the suspension forum.

    Also, their level of customer service is taking a beating, and I really do feel for the U.S. service guys like Ronnie, Gideon and Mike, they are good guys who do go out of their way to hook people up as best they can, they are just getting their butts kicked this year with all the repairs coming in and the difficulty getting parts from Italy. It however does not excuse the fact that things should be repaired properly when they sit on the bench for 2 months waiting to get repaired.

    I have LITERALLY had one of my 3 Roco's in the shop all but 3 weeks of 2008. Read that again. At one point or another, one of my 3 Roco's has been at Marzocchi getting repaired for all but 3 weeks out of the entire year to date. In fact, there is one there now, which has been there for 6 weeks waiting for parts. They come back, they are "repaired" and within a month or two, the same problem arises or something else blows on it. That to me is inexcusable for the amount of lost riding time and the money spent on the products.

    So yes, in my eyes, the "Mighty M" has fallen from grace, and IMO are heading down the same slippery slope Manitou did in 2005-2006 before needing to be rescued by Hayes. Cheap Taiwanese manufacturing + overloaded customer service = bad customer satifaction. They need to start designing the same solid products they did before SR Suntour took over manufacturing and stand by their products in any way possible if they are to save their reputation.
    Considering that parts/spares are such an issue with Marzocchi, and the fact that I live in South Africa, I'm guessing your advice to me would be to rather go for a Boxxer or a Fox fork?

  186. #186
    sixsixtysix
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigHit888
    Considering that parts/spares are such an issue with Marzocchi, and the fact that I live in South Africa, I'm guessing your advice to me would be to rather go for a Boxxer or a Fox fork?
    Depending on how big you are, then yes I would take the Boxxer team then the Fox 40. 40's are nice forks, but also susceptible to damage to the thin lowers.

  187. #187
    SILENCE! I KILL YOU!
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    Had experience with a 2002 DJ2, and now a 05 Drop-Off. They work, plain and simple.
    Hunter, Simmons, Berrecloth, Watson,Vanderham, Semenuk, Schley, Gulevich, Bourdon, Smith, Moreland, Shandro, Boyko... Bieber.

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