List of companies who make their goods in first world countries.- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    List of companies who make their goods in first world countries.

    So I thought it would be great to have a list of all known 1st world manufacturers and components available (items made in USA, Canada, Italy, England, France, Germany, etc.). If the thread takes hold I will try to keep it updated with the replies you guys contribute.

    Frames
    Intense-USA
    Nikolai-Germany

    Forks
    Avalanche-USA
    Up to 2007 Marzocchi-Italy
    Fox-USA
    Manitou-USA

    Shocks

    Wheels

    Hubs

    Brakes

    Tires

    Drivetrain components

    Cockpit items

    Saddles

    Pedals

    Etc.
    Last edited by pablo4429; 01-08-2011 at 07:53 PM. Reason: rephrasing

  2. #2
    Locs on Spokez
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    What are you trying to achieve with this exactly?
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  3. #3
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    Just to have a list to go to if someone wants to buy American or Canadian or what have you instead of Taiwan or China. Simply to have an easy reference for people to go to if they put value in where a product is made. Nothing more, nothing less.

  4. #4
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    well, I have a few corrections for you off the bat - whats the point of listing companies that used to make "1st world" parts - pretty much every company out there. If you're going to include marzocchi, you also have to include trek, santa cruz, specialized, norco, etc. Anyway.

    Canfield are not made in the USA, and never have been.

    Fox and manitou are both here in the US of A, both in assembly and the manufacturing of parts for manitou, and the assembly and most of the manufacturing of parts for fox.

  5. #5
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    Canfield frames are not made in the USA.
    Are Taiwan and China really considered third world these days?

  6. #6
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    Sorry let me rephrase that. Not 1st world companies, companies that actually make their products in first world countries. If you want to call first Taiwan and China first world countries fine, but they still treat their employees like dirt and that is really the point here. Try to support companies that do not exploit people for cheap labor. I do not want to get into a debate about the ethics of said labor or how "everyone is doing it," that is not the point at all. This is simply a thread to list companies that manufactures their goods in house (in their respective countries).

  7. #7
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    I'm not getting involved with this one at all.
    Last edited by fixbikeguy; 01-09-2011 at 09:47 PM.

  8. #8
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    Wow this thread was not intended to be a political discussion. The only reason I used the term 1st world was to differentiate between developed and developing countries, not to spark any political stuff at all.

  9. #9
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    This thread is so far (and quite predictably), a joke.

  10. #10
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    OP: retard
    thread: will not end well

  11. #11
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    You might be surprised to find out that Taiwan is actually considered a developed country. A lot of bike parts come from there. Though the exploitation happens, the image of small Chinese kids slaving away over bike frames, isn't always the case.
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  12. #12
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    this thread should die (sorry didn't help)

    [QUOTE=fixbikeguy]
    Quote Originally Posted by pablo4429
    If you want to call first Taiwan and China first world countries fine, but they still treat their employees like dirt and that is really the point here. Try to support companies that do not exploit people for cheap labor. [/QUOTe

    I'm not getting involved with this one at all.
    You involved your self by starting this thread. Have you ever had your company provide you a place to live? Some workers here do. How about lunch everyday? They do where we build our bikes. And for a point of reference, the NT dollar is stronger the the US dollar at this point. I would consider that first world, or maybe US has fallen to second world?

    William42, FYI, we have build bikes in Taiwan since 2006, from 1999 to 2006 Chris and I build them in Utah.

    Good luck finding a company that doesn't atleast source materials (almost everything)from somewhere else. This tread is dumb.

  13. #13
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    shimano is made in japan. or is that not 'first world' enough either?

  14. #14
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    Sounds like a quality case of the infamous college know-it-all-hippie
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  15. #15
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    New product development

    Apparently the Chinese came up with this idea when sifting through some of the action pictures from the latest Tiananmen Square ride.
    "arh, yes, this vel'good, what happens when you run over bike with tank...arh, yes, you get TankBike - is vel'good idee, vel'good..."
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails List of companies who make their goods in first world countries.-tankbike.jpg  


  16. #16
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    you are probably going to find that most companies these day source there parts from asia. when a manufacturer claims there products are english or us made, they are most likley to be sourced from asia and assembled in the uk or usa,
    there is a reason why most companies these days source there parts from asia and this is because they have all the best facillities to make the parts.
    so you will find it very hard to find a genuine made in the usa part that doesnt have any relationship with asia.

  17. #17
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    Population living below poverty line:
    UK 14%
    USA 12%
    Canada 10.8%
    Taiwan .95%

  18. #18
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    yeah canada makes some good parts but they use cheap child mullet labor in like 66% of their force

  19. #19
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    im not gonna get involved in the political discusion but i will give you a couple brands that come to mind: turner, chromag, panaracer, homebrew, twenty6, hope, im sure there are many more too but this whole topic is kind of silly.

  20. #20
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    what lance said.

    Also, skilled labor is the same everywhere. It might be more competitive in china and taiwan, and if you fyck up you might be replaced quickly, but people skilled enough at welding to build high end bikes are making a living, whether in the US and china. There are good reasons to buy american -

    frequently, but not always they are the best quality (I like buying them particularly in this case), but in the case of bicycles this just isn't always the case.

    buy local - get products at a smaller ecological cost, and it keeps the money in the local economy

    and buying national, because it keeps the money and jobs in america, and some sense of national pride.

    The second two are bonuses, but at the end of the day, the most important one is the first (by far) which is why my last bicycles have been made by trek, canfield, and giant. and if you go back further, I've owned several specialized, and my next bike will be a trek or specialized almost certainly.

  21. #21
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    i know that for many types of EEs (electrical engineers), doing chip design, the median salaries are actually slightly higher in taiwan when compared to the US. for small bike companies, that have low volume, highly variable manufacturing mix, i think it would just make more sense to outsource production, and let someone else deal w/ the complexities associated w/ that. i doubt outfits like santa cruz or intense would want to pay the $$ to have an industrial engineer or supply chain specialist.


    Quote Originally Posted by Berkley
    You might be surprised to find out that Taiwan is actually considered a developed country. A lot of bike parts come from there. Though the exploitation happens, the image of small Chinese kids slaving away over bike frames, isn't always the case.
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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by jcin
    yeah canada makes some good parts but they use cheap child mullet labor in like 66% of their force

  23. #23
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    canada makes some good parts but they use cheap child mullet labor in like 66% of their force

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5QApaLy2RM

  24. #24
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    Well this thread got messed up really quickly. First off, I am not some know-it-all college hippie although I do go to college, I like to think critically about what is going on in this world and where products that we all use come from. Unfortunately, it seems as though thinking in this way makes me a know-it-all in some peoples minds which is truly sad and leads to people my age being so entertained with Jersey Shore and the like. How often do people actually stop to think about anything they are surrounded and influenced by? The thread was not supposed to bring out statistics opinions or anything like that. I did not attack anyone at all or anything anyone supports or how you make your damn bikes! I simply wanted a list of companies that manufacture other places besides China and Taiwan so we could support other places, that is ALL. I'm done with this thread, continue arguing or calling me whatever you want, I do not come to MTBR to talk politics or world economics so enjoy yourselves.

  25. #25
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    Obviously the OP didn't start this thread off on a good note, but it would be nice and useful to have a list of American & Canadian made bike parts. I prefer to support my country and the neighboring countries for a lot of reasons. It's not that people shouldn't be allowed to buy stuff from other countries (ex. Taiwan), it's that it's my money to spend how I want and support whom I want. I don't think I need to go further on this.

    When I built my last two bikes, especially my very last bike I went American or Canadian on the parts I could and where it made sense for my needs.

    Here are the companies that I found:
    USA: Intense, Turner, Chris King, Hadley, Twenty6, Thompson,ODI (grips are, not sure about other parts)
    Canadian: Blackspire

    Other notes:
    E13: guiderings used to be made in the USA, but is now switching to Taiwan. Here is the response I got from them when I asked about guiderings a couple of months ago:
    "All of the Guiderings to date have been made in the USA...from machining to anodizing to our laser engraver down the street............................................ ...The new rings are made in Taiwan...quality will remain the same and we should be able to meet demand much better." (The "..." is to replace the part I cut out because it's long and it's a description of how to tell if the chainring is made in the USA.)

    Obviously I do not know where these companies materials were sourced from, but it's a start for those that do care where their stuff is made.

  26. #26

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    Hello xenophobia.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by hafnz
    Hello xenophobia.
    I hope you are not referring to me. As to the OP's posts I would say you're grasping, but if that makes you feel better.

  28. #28
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    While on the subject does anyone want to start a list of companies that only employ white people, or exclude gays. ;-)
    Why would I care about 150g of bike weight, I just ate 400g of cookies while reading this?

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaveGiant
    While on the subject does anyone want to start a list of companies that only employ white people, or exclude gays. ;-)
    Why is it bad if someone cares where something is made?

  30. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by kdiff
    Why is it bad if someone cares where something is made?
    In itself, it's not.
    Yet, I'd say that the underlying reason that started this isn't "where", but "by whom".
    Also, the notion that person A from country B is automatically ok for anything is highly fallacious (it also works replacing "country" by "race", "religious beliefs" and so on).

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by hafnz
    In itself, it's not.
    Yet, I'd say that the underlying reason that started this isn't "where", but "by whom"
    If "by whom" you mean race? No one has mentioned race so this doesn't make sense. I can't figure out what else you would mean?

    No one on the thread appears to have a hatred or fear for any country. There was definitely some misinformation and a preference for supporting certain countries by the OP, but not xenophobic.

    Quote Originally Posted by hafnz
    Also, the notion that person A from country B is automatically ok for anything is highly fallacious (it also works replacing "country" by "race", "religious beliefs" and so on).
    This statement doesn't make sense either. I think I know what you intended which is "it's highly fallacious to say that a person/product from country B is automatically okay". If this is what you intended you're obviously correct. But, no one said that a product from country A is automatically okay while a product from country B is not.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by pablo4429
    Sorry let me rephrase that. Not 1st world companies, companies that actually make their products in first world countries. If you want to call first Taiwan and China first world countries fine, but they still treat their employees like dirt and that is really the point here. Try to support companies that do not exploit people for cheap labor. I do not want to get into a debate about the ethics of said labor or how "everyone is doing it," that is not the point at all. This is simply a thread to list companies that manufactures their goods in house (in their respective countries).
    Sorry but you are an IDIOT. Have you ever been to Taiwan? Do you know how they tread their employees? Apparently not. The quality of living in taiwan is MUCH higher than in china and the workers are not really exploited. Many companies move to tw not because it's cheaper but because it's easier to produce quality frames. Especialy if you are to small to set up a factory and local ones don't offer what you want. Please educate yourself before posting. Though I'm from Poland. Probably a 3rd world country by your standards anyway. TW made frames DO NOT benefit from exploiting workers and are not of lower quality. Get that.
    www.totalbikes.pl - Bike Camps not only in Poland

  33. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by kdiff
    If "by whom" you mean race?
    "By whom" as in which nationality the people that made it have.

    "Fear" and "hatred" are just the most general terms used explain to some of the feelings some may have against people of other countries/races/religious beliefs.
    In this case, for some reason it appears that something that is not part of a list of countries isn't ok.
    I'd say that denying something from another country just because it is from that country is xenophobia.

    Quote Originally Posted by kdiff
    This statement doesn't make sense either. I think I know what you intended which is "it's highly fallacious to say that a person/product from country B is automatically okay". If this is what you intended you're obviously correct. But, no one said that a product from country A is automatically okay while a product from country B is not.
    I mentioned persons linked to products because "1st world made products" is used here as some sort of gourmet dish, while everything else isn't worthy, ultimately the people that make them.
    If the list is narrowed by countries and not quality or price, then that's what it says.

    Wanting to give money to certain people and being able to choose who we give it to makes sense. We all do that kind of decisions, these forums are a lot about it too. We read that company A has a customer service problem and we think twice before we give them money. Or that company B has a stellar product that is cheaper than C and comes in pink and we feel that it must indeed be a good product and as such we should buy it.
    Those reasons make perfect sense. Choosing solely based on the country it's made doesn't make sense and is xenophonic.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by hafnz
    "By whom" as in which nationality the people that made it have.

    "Fear" and "hatred" are just the most general terms used explain to some of the feelings some may have against people of other countries/races/religious beliefs.
    In this case, for some reason it appears that something that is not part of a list of countries isn't ok.
    I'd say that denying something from another country just because it is from that country is xenophobia.
    I think I see your point. I read it differently, which is that the OP was frustrated in finding it difficult to buy parts that are made in the US. I know some other things were said but I brushed those off as frustration by someone whom obviously feels like everything is made in China and Taiwan. Hence his later post:

    Quote Originally Posted by pablo4429
    Just to have a list to go to if someone wants to buy American or Canadian or what have you instead of Taiwan or China. Simply to have an easy reference for people to go to if they put value in where a product is made. Nothing more, nothing less.
    There is nothing xenophobic or wrong about being willing to pay a couple of dollars more ("adding value") for a product that is locally made. If for example I can buy the same frame either made in Taiwan for $2k or I can buy the USA made (and sometimes even from the same state as me) for $2.3k I'm probably going to buy the made in the US. Not because I have something against the guys in Taiwan, it's just that I would rather the money go to support the guy that lives down the street from me. If it's $1k vs $2.3k I'm probably going Taiwanese. Just as craftsmanship and quality there is some value in where something is made.

    Quote Originally Posted by hafnz
    "Choosing solely based on the country it's made doesn't make sense and is xenophonic.
    No where does the OP suggest that one should purchase solely on a products origins. He only mentions that it is of value to some.

    Quote Originally Posted by hafnz
    I mentioned persons linked to products because "1st world made products" is used here as some sort of gourmet dish, while everything else isn't worthy, ultimately the people that make them.
    If the list is narrowed by countries and not quality or price, then that's what it says.
    The OP is not making it sound like a "gourmet" product. He was just doing a poor job at describing what he wanted, which is a list of where products are made. There is nothing wrong with wanting a list of where stuff is made. We already have a site where quality is discussed (MTBR, ever heard of it ). A lot of companies don't openly advertise where their products are made. As a result it's difficult for people to support locally made products. Since it's something people place value in then it's something that ideally should be available.

  35. #35
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    Well I said I would stop posting but I can't resist. While getting words shoved in my mouth was fun, kdiff hit the hail on the head. I was not being xenophobic whatsoever. I simply wanted a list so I could, if funds allow were to allow, support countries other than the few that seem to make everything so as to keep money where I WANT to. I would like to support companies that have found innovative ways to keep costs reasonable in those countries which do not typically allow due to insurance, workers benefits, etc. I assumed, apparently my fault, that this sentiment would be implied and a discussion like this would not take place, however it seems I was incorrect. If i knew it would have come to such a heated conversation about how I apparently hate all other non USA countries I would have phrased the original post much more carefully. Since the thread is so convoluted with political biases I won't update it but if someone else wants to try again with a similar one, good luck!! Maybe the "treats them like dirt" comment is what set people off but that is my opinion and I am entitled to it, just as you are to yours. However, jumping straight to and attempting to show xenophobia is simply being ignorant of my personal beliefs. I do not want to have a political/economics debate here since obviously it is quite a touchy subject and this is not the forum to do so.

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by pablo4429
    Well I said I would stop posting but I can't resist. While getting words shoved in my mouth was fun, kdiff hit the hail on the head. I was not being xenophobic whatsoever. I simply wanted a list so I could, if funds allow were to allow, support countries other than the few that seem to make everything so as to keep money where I WANT to. I would like to support companies that have found innovative ways to keep costs reasonable in those countries which do not typically allow due to insurance, workers benefits, etc. I assumed, apparently my fault, that this sentiment would be implied and a discussion like this would not take place, however it seems I was incorrect. If i knew it would have come to such a heated conversation about how I apparently hate all other non USA countries I would have phrased the original post much more carefully. Since the thread is so convoluted with political biases I won't update it but if someone else wants to try again with a similar one, good luck!! Maybe the "treats them like dirt" comment is what set people off but that is my opinion and I am entitled to it, just as you are to yours. However, jumping straight to and attempting to show xenophobia is simply being ignorant of my personal beliefs. I do not want to have a political/economics debate here since obviously it is quite a touchy subject and this is not the forum to do so.
    Opinions and beliefs are different than facts.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by fixbikeguy
    Opinions and beliefs are different than facts.
    Even on the Internets?

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by pablo4429
    Wow this thread was not intended to be a political discussion. The only reason I used the term 1st world was to differentiate between developed and developing countries, not to spark any political stuff at all.
    You do realize that "1st world" = "Old world", and does not include "New world", so you should eliminate all of the Americas from your list.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glenn D.
    You do realize that "1st world" = "Old world", and does not include "New world", so you should eliminate all of the Americas from your list.
    That's not right at all. http://www.nationsonline.org/oneworld/first_world.htm
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  40. #40
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    Caution;  Merge;  Workers Ahead!

    [QUOTE=flymybike]
    Quote Originally Posted by fixbikeguy

    You involved your self by starting this thread. Have you ever had your company provide you a place to live? Some workers here do. How about lunch everyday? They do where we build our bikes. And for a point of reference, the NT dollar is stronger the the US dollar at this point. I would consider that first world, or maybe US has fallen to second world?

    William42, FYI, we have build bikes in Taiwan since 2006, from 1999 to 2006 Chris and I build them in Utah.

    Good luck finding a company that doesn't atleast source materials (almost everything)from somewhere else. This tread is dumb.
    I'd love To see the "accommodations".Or how much is charged for food at the company store.Are they even allowed outside food?Or do they have to buy it there?What are the REAL hours worked?
    Sounds like you can move production back to the US since we are now so cheap,no?

    there are some of us that do prefer to support American made products .Thread is valid.Sorry.
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  41. #41
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    [QUOTE=flymybike]
    Quote Originally Posted by fixbikeguy

    You involved your self by starting this thread. Have you ever had your company provide you a place to live? Some workers here do. How about lunch everyday? They do where we build our bikes. And for a point of reference, the NT dollar is stronger the the US dollar at this point. I would consider that first world, or maybe US has fallen to second world?

    William42, FYI, we have build bikes in Taiwan since 2006, from 1999 to 2006 Chris and I build them in Utah.

    Good luck finding a company that doesn't atleast source materials (almost everything)from somewhere else. This tread is dumb.

    I didn't start this thread. Somehow the quote function of the forum got messed up. I'm not that stupid. I agree with you on every level of this.

  42. #42
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    Can I throw a question out there on this?

    Of which I will...

    If you changed the mtb products made in China, to food grown in China what would your thoughts be?

    Are you all cool to put the same arguments forward that are being made re frames etc made in China to food?
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  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by flymybike
    You involved your self by starting this thread. Have you ever had your company provide you a place to live? Some workers here do. How about lunch everyday? They do where we build our bikes. And for a point of reference, the NT dollar is stronger the the US dollar at this point. I would consider that first world, or maybe US has fallen to second world?

    William42, FYI, we have build bikes in Taiwan since 2006, from 1999 to 2006 Chris and I build them in Utah.

    Good luck finding a company that doesn't atleast source materials (almost everything)from somewhere else. This tread is dumb.
    Sounds like somebody is slightly butthurt

    Ever consider that some of us CHOOSE to buy things that are made in the USA because we WANT to? I won't attempt to offer some objective reason to do so because someone will attempt to dispute it. Both of my frames (Titus Motolite and Intense 951) were made in the USA, a fact that I am proud of. I am also working toward replacing components on these frames with parts made in the USA because I'd rather spend my $ supporting American workers. It's hard but worth it *in my opinion* A few years ago, I couldn't afford to buy American as much as I would have liked, so I'm not going to knock anyone who doesn't.

    I find it pathetic that many bike companies (read: yours) have switched to producing bikes overseas and do not lower the cost of their frames, even though it is undoubtedly cheaper for the company. Case in point: a Canfield F1 Jedi is $2600. An Intense 951: $2500. Demo 8 frame: $2500. List goes on, these are the top three I was looking at recently. That part of the decision was easy.. choosing a color, on the other hand...

    Call it xenophobia or whatever you want, I do not care. I "vote" with my wallet and troll with my mouth I'm not going to waste much time trying to convince trolls that I am correct, but I know that there are more than a few people who agree with me.

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scary
    I'd love To see the "accommodations".Or how much is charged for food at the company store.Are they even allowed outside food?Or do they have to buy it there?What are the REAL hours worked?
    Sounds like you can move production back to the US since we are now so cheap,no?

    there are some of us that do prefer to support American made products .Thread is valid.Sorry.
    That's an excellent point. (I got side tracked with the xenophobia accusations.) Since flymybike/Canfield stepped into this I would be interested in hearing a response.

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berkley
    interesting to note that that website does not list taiwan as a third world country. so, 100% of bike parts are made in a "first world country" .

    /thread

  46. #46
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    I wonder where Intense sources it's hydroformed tubes from?

  47. #47
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    I ask again, would you all purchase food grown in China as opposed to in the US of A? (or my case New Zealand)

    hafnz, your thoughts?????
    The_Lecht_Rocks: whafe - cheeers - may i offer an official apology for the wagon wheeler "dis-belief"

  48. #48
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    [QUOTE=Scary]
    Quote Originally Posted by flymybike
    I'd love To see the "accommodations".Or how much is charged for food at the company store.Are they even allowed outside food?Or do they have to buy it there?What are the REAL hours worked?
    Sounds like you can move production back to the US since we are now so cheap,no?

    there are some of us that do prefer to support American made products .Thread is valid.Sorry.
    The philippine workers are here because there are very few jobs back home. They are provided free dorm style accomidations (remembering college days) including electrical, water, etc.

    Everyone here is given lunch, everyday and they can eat it if they want or bring there own food or go out to lunch, just like anywhere. I chose to eat with the workers.

    Most workers are 8 to 5 with an unpayed hour lunch and a few of the higher up's on salary stay later. The workers are very commited and will work over time if needed. It's a choice, they have free will like the rest of us. The philippine workers are all hourly. Because there away from there familys, they work overtime every chance they get. That usually means working as late as 10 pm and saturdays commonly. They need the money to support there familys, all of them support there wife, kids, parents and even extended family. The job market is that bad. They are here happily sacrificing three years of there life to make the familys lives better. I can respect that and I'm happy to support it.

    There are two ways, that I see, of building bikes in the US. Source it or invest in your own factory to do it all in house. For us, we do such small numbers that the later is unreasonable. Sourcing, there is only one option and they provide only raw welded frames and they source there forgings, CNC and some of there raw materials from Asia anyway. Then I need to find paint or powder coating, packaging, stickers, assembly and assembly parts like bearing and bolts to make a complete product. It's just Chris and I here, I don't have time for all that. If I do it in Taiwan I get it all and it's all within two hours of here. For us it's more about getting everything we need from one place.

    At home I shop as local as I can, I never buy at WalMart and Target and have local shops work on my Ford. I buy coffee from the local roasters but you can't get away from the fact that it's a worldwide market place these days, the coffee obviously isn't grown in Jackson but if I can buy from the local roaster, my money still goes into there pocket and stays, for the most part in Jackson. You buy from Canfield Brothers and the money ends up in Utah, other that production costs. If the US was to stop trading with other countries our economy would be alot worse. I think if we try and be responsable about how we spend our money and realize that our economy is dependent on the global economy to some extent, that the world can be a better place. OK, group hug.

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whafe
    I ask again, would you all purchase food grown in China as opposed to in the US of A? (or my case New Zealand)

    hafnz, your thoughts?????
    Are you nuts??? Do you have any idea what they EAT over there???
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  50. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by kdiff
    I know some other things were said but I brushed those off as frustration by someone whom obviously feels like everything is made in China and Taiwan.
    The world is moving more and more towards a common market (as already has been stated here), with that said and being that we're all inhabitants of the same planet, it doesn't seem right to me that we praise that common market and then condemn the ability of countries A or B for easily exporting and importing goods and selling them competitively to, as a bottom line, make a living like everyone else.

    Exporting goods is probably where most companies make money. A sign that the country where those companies are inserted have a growing income and are able to show to the rest of the countries that they are doing well and have a healthy economy.

    When people mention buying locally it always sound as we're helping a close friend, yet it's mostly an abstract notion that it will help them in some way, when in fact you'll also be helping someone who isn't "local" if you buy from them.
    It makes sense if you personally know every John and Jane Doe from who you buy your stuff, yet it stops making sense (and starts to be wishful thinking) the moment you do it just because it's from country A or B instead of C. As in a bottom line that person from country C will be as faceless as the persons from country A or B.
    Also defeating the purpose of a common market, saying that you are able to export and sell everything you want to other countries, but not import and "help" other countries get developed as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by kdiff
    There is nothing xenophobic or wrong about being willing to pay a couple of dollars more ("adding value") for a product that is locally made. If for example I can buy the same frame either made in Taiwan for $2k or I can buy the USA made (and sometimes even from the same state as me) for $2.3k I'm probably going to buy the made in the US. Not because I have something against the guys in Taiwan, it's just that I would rather the money go to support the guy that lives down the street from me. If it's $1k vs $2.3k I'm probably going Taiwanese. Just as craftsmanship and quality there is some value in where something is made.
    There isn't, if that added value is part of other reasons too.

    Quote Originally Posted by kdiff
    No where does the OP suggest that one should purchase solely on a products origins. He only mentions that it is of value to some.
    If when making a list we exclude certain countries based on the fact that they "get to do everything", aren't we boycotting the economy from country A because "they have plenty already"? Isn't that "trying to keep out" something by avoiding them to prosper?

    Quote Originally Posted by kdiff
    The OP is not making it sound like a "gourmet" product. He was just doing a poor job at describing what he wanted, which is a list of where products are made. There is nothing wrong with wanting a list of where stuff is made. We already have a site where quality is discussed (MTBR, ever heard of it ). A lot of companies don't openly advertise where their products are made. As a result it's difficult for people to support locally made products. Since it's something people place value in then it's something that ideally should be available.
    I mentioned "gourmet" as it usually has an added value on itself by being it.
    Made in country A or B and having that added value just because of it, sounds like the same to me.

    A list of where stuff is made sounds like there's no harm done, at first.
    At a second glance it sounds like something that doesn't really matter, specially if we also start defining "locally", is it 5 miles from where you live? Is it the border where country A ends, even if you live 500 miles from that border? On the mile 501 out of that border?
    Isn't there a feeling underlying there of being special for the sole reason of being in country A rather than country B? And again, going back to one of my first statements of being automatically ok to support someone just because they from country A or B.

    Quote Originally Posted by Whafe
    I ask again, would you all purchase food grown in China as opposed to in the US of A? (or my case New Zealand)

    hafnz, your thoughts?????
    At the moment I wouldn't, simply because I'm not given the chance to choose it. I don't believe they have wholesale markets for/with Chinese food where I live, only for consumer objects.

    Also, at the moment it's impossible to live to such expectation of being able to buy everything from country A. Most people make their choices based on price/quality leaving the place where it's made to being an added value/or not.

  51. #51
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    Wow, I didn't read all the vitriol here, but I had a similar question and we worked it out over on Ridemonkey, thread here: http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=238825

    My findings (for USA and Canada only):

    Stem: Point1, Twenty Six, Thomson, Straightline (CN)
    Handlebar:
    Grips: ODI
    Headset: Chris King, Cane Creek
    Fork: Dorado
    Hubs: Industry 9, Chris King, Hadley
    Spokes: Industry 9, Wheelsmith
    Rims: Arrow, Enve carbon
    Brakes:
    Cranks: Profile, RF Atlas (CN)
    BB: Profile, Chris King
    Seatpost: Thomsom
    Seat:
    Pedals: Point1, Twenty-Six, Straightline (CN)
    Chainguide: e-13, Straightline (CN)
    Chainring: Homebrew, Raceface (CN)
    Rear Shock: Avalanche, Cane Creek, Elka (CN)

    As for my motivation, I was planning a custom steel frame made out of True Temper and wanted to spec it with similar locally sourced parts (made in USA)....and...

    "I was also just interested in what products are still made around here. Not necessarily because I'm overly patriotic, more because local manufacturing is best for the economy and environment. The USA has built some of the most awesome stuff in the world because we were a science, engineering and manufacturing leader at one time. It saddens me to see that is really no longer the case, with a few exceptions. And now our economy is paying."

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pslide

    "I was also just interested in what products are still made around here. Not necessarily because I'm overly patriotic, more because local manufacturing is best for the economy and environment. The USA has built some of the most awesome stuff in the world because we were a science, engineering and manufacturing leader at one time. It saddens me to see that is really no longer the case, with a few exceptions. And now our economy is paying."

    I think the F22 would disagree with you.

    Hahhaah

  53. #53
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    [QUOTE=Scary]
    Quote Originally Posted by flymybike
    I'd love To see the "accommodations".Or how much is charged for food at the company store.Are they even allowed outside food?Or do they have to buy it there?What are the REAL hours worked?
    Sounds like you can move production back to the US since we are now so cheap,no?

    there are some of us that do prefer to support American made products .Thread is valid.Sorry.
    Go read about TW economy and standard of living before you post in this thread again. I'm pretty sure that either Jake or Lance have a bit more knowledge about the local conditions than you do. Hell, one of my best biking buddies goes there annualy and the whole tw is a poor country exploiting workers is stupid, xenofobic and just plain uneducated.
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  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whafe
    I ask again, would you all purchase food grown in China as opposed to in the US of A? (or my case New Zealand)

    hafnz, your thoughts?????
    I`m pretty sure that we already do.

  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whafe
    I ask again, would you all purchase food grown in China as opposed to in the US of A? (or my case New Zealand)

    hafnz, your thoughts?????
    This question is stupid and has no connection to bikes. Local food is healthier. Bikes - not really.


    btw. Do you relise that food importing/exporting was common 500 years ago in Europe?
    www.totalbikes.pl - Bike Camps not only in Poland

  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by ianjenn
    I think the F22 would disagree with you.

    Hahhaah
    Yes, thank god we are still doing some awesome tech! Too bad most of our cool stuff is for jacking other people's stuff up. Funny that the confidential military tech is the only thing we won't outsource!

    Crap, now even I'm starting to sound like a hippie...

  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pslide
    Yes, thank god we are still doing some awesome tech! Too bad most of our cool stuff is for jacking other people's stuff up. Funny that the confidential military tech is the only thing we won't outsource!

    Crap, now even I'm starting to sound like a hippie...

    Though the chinease already prototype their stealth Fighter/Bomber that is to compete with F22. So soon you will have to anyway
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  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by norbar

    Go read about TW economy and standard of living before you post in this thread again. I'm pretty sure that either Jake or Lance have a bit more knowledge about the local conditions than you do. Hell, one of my best biking buddies goes there annualy and the whole tw is a poor country exploiting workers is stupid, xenofobic and just plain uneducated.
    Don't be an idiot and get off your high horse. Why don't you go do some more research. The questions Scary asked were very valid. I've been to Taiwan, China, Vietnam, Cambodia, Indonesia, the Phillipines, Mexico and etc for business and have seen several factories. Not bike factories but factories that produce goods for US companies. If your friend has seen anything they would also agree that questions about real hours worked, housing & food, and charges are very valid.

    Taiwan is a very advanced country, far from third world but many of the labor laws in these countries are different than ours. I'm not going to say they are bad but they are different. Additionally, a lot of the more advanced countries will bring workers from other countries (places that tend to have higher unemployment or a lower standard of living) and these conditions vary greatly depending on the hosting country and facility.

  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by kdiff
    Don't be an idiot and get off your high horse. Why don't you go do some more research. The questions Scary asked were very valid. I've been to Taiwan, China, Vietnam, Cambodia, Indonesia, the Phillipines, Mexico and etc for business and have seen several factories. Not bike factories but factories that produce goods for US companies. If your friend has seen anything they would also agree that questions about real hours worked, housing & food, and charges are very valid.

    Taiwan is a very advanced country, far from third world but many of the labor laws in these countries are different than ours. I'm not going to say they are bad but they are different. Additionally, a lot of the more advanced countries will bring workers from other countries (places that tend to have higher unemployment or a lower standard of living) and these conditions vary greatly depending on the hosting country and facility.
    It's not really valid if basicly what you say is that conditions vary by workplace and company, not by country. Yes he has only been to bike factories and that is what we are talking about. They are maybe not on par with what US welders work with (cheaper ones) but the sweatshop stereotype concerning bike factories and TW is stupid. Yes if they are workers in mass produce factories that do cheap products their standard of work and living is lower but so is it in ie. Eastern Europe where I live and you wouldn't call us a 3rd world country.
    Not to mention the cashflow going to tw is the only thing that may change the standard of living there. They have a very different mindset (concerning life and work) though you probably know that already, and if we decide to pull all our cash out we air exatly giving them a favor
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  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by norbar
    Though the chinease already prototype their stealth Fighter/Bomber that is to compete with F22. So soon you will have to anyway

    Sure that will work well I bet. Lets see just got rocket technology what a decade ago (stolen) and god knows what type of electrical systems operating a plane. That is like the Mig "competing" with F-14, F-16, F18's is like comparing a Geo Metro to a McLaren F1.

  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by norbar
    It's not really valid if basicly what you say is that conditions vary by workplace and company, not by country.
    Let me rephrase because what I meant was not clear. Based on what I've seen work conditions can vary greatly between two factories within one country for the same product, especially especially if one factory is using workers visiting from other countries.

    I didn't see any third world conditions in TW, but the question is still valid especially after the guy from Canfield came on here bragging about the conditions. He seems like a good source to ask then?

    If you have such good resources such as your friend that's been to factories why don't you post what you know and provide more information rather then telling people to not post until they go do more research? (I don't have problem with foreign made goods but I think it's important for the consumer to know more about how their products/goods are produced. There is a lot of true and false information out there.)

  62. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by kdiff
    Let me rephrase because what I meant was not clear. Based on what I've seen work conditions can vary greatly between two factories within one country for the same product, especially especially if one factory is using workers visiting from other countries.

    I didn't see any third world conditions in TW, but the question is still valid especially after the guy from Canfield came on here bragging about the conditions. He seems like a good source to ask then?

    If you have such good resources such as your friend that's been to factories why don't you post what you know and provide more information rather then telling people to not post until they go do more research? (I don't have problem with foreign made goods but I think it's important for the consumer to know more about how their products/goods are produced. There is a lot of true and false information out there.)
    I didn't ask him on the conditions but every time he cames back he tells us how suprised he is on how good it looks there. Yes sometimes it's a bit ghetto but in some cases from what he told me it's really high techy and shiny. He can be a leftie so I'm sure he'd have mentioned exploited workers. All the time he told me it was the opposite of that. I can ask him for the details if you want.


    As for warrying conditions - I agree with you but that 1st world countries thing is silly. It's not the country, it's the factory. The French car company peugeot had a factory-city where they paid up to 80% of their workers wages in their own money. That happened some time ago but France has strong employe rights. Should we consider them 3rd world? I just think generalisation towards country is the uneducated thing to do and I'm really suprised why Americans are always the first to do it.
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  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by norbar
    I didn't ask him on the conditions but every time he cames back he tells us how suprised he is on how good it looks there. Yes sometimes it's a bit ghetto but in some cases from what he told me it's really high techy and shiny. He can be a leftie so I'm sure he'd have mentioned exploited workers. All the time he told me it was the opposite of that. I can ask him for the details if you want.
    If you think the information you could get from him would be informative to the people on this thread then maybe you should ask him.

    Quote Originally Posted by norbar
    The French car company peugeot had a factory-city where they paid up to 80% of their workers wages in their own money. That happened some time ago but France has strong employe rights. Should we consider them 3rd world?
    I don't think anyone except for the OP has called TW a 3rd world nation and he has left the thread. But to be fair the lefty news is constantly telling us how evil we are and how we are exploiting the rest of the world, so people having the wrong impression is understandable.

    Quote Originally Posted by norbar
    I just think generalisation towards country is the uneducated thing to do and I'm really suprised why Americans are always the first to do it.
    I don't think we (Americans) are any worse then any other country. It's my impression that the rest of the world generalizes us.

    On a side note: it's my impression that as a whole Europeans and especially Australians seem to do much more international travel than Americans. As a result some Americans are not as worldly as they should be.

  64. #64
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    [QUOTE=Pslide]Wow, I didn't read all the vitriol here, but I had a similar question and we worked it out over on Ridemonkey, thread here: http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=238825

    My findings (for USA and Canada only):

    Stem: Point1, Twenty Six, Thomson, Straightline (CN)
    Handlebar:
    Grips: ODI
    Headset: Chris King, Cane Creek
    Fork: Dorado
    Hubs: Industry 9, Chris King, Hadley
    Spokes: Industry 9, Wheelsmith
    Rims: Arrow, Enve carbon
    Brakes:
    Cranks: Profile, RF Atlas (CN)
    BB: Profile, Chris King
    Seatpost: Thomsom
    Seat:
    Pedals: Point1, Twenty-Six, Straightline (CN)
    Chainguide: e-13, Straightline (CN)
    Chainring: Homebrew, Raceface (CN)
    Rear Shock: Avalanche, Cane Creek, Elka (CN)

    Has anyone wondered where these guys buy their aluminium?

    I would put a healthy bet on a lot of it comes out of China as they are one of the largest producers in the world. I think the USA has very few rare earth metals (al is not a RE met) so those would have to be imported too.
    Why would I care about 150g of bike weight, I just ate 400g of cookies while reading this?

  65. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by kdiff
    If you think the information you could get from him would be informative to the people on this thread then maybe you should ask him.



    I don't think anyone except for the OP has called TW a 3rd world nation and he has left the thread. But to be fair the lefty news is constantly telling us how evil we are and how we are exploiting the rest of the world, so people having the wrong impression is understandable.



    I don't think we (Americans) are any worse then any other country. It's my impression that the rest of the world generalizes us.

    On a side note: it's my impression that as a whole Europeans and especially Australians seem to do much more international travel than Americans. As a result some Americans are not as worldly as they should be.
    The media really dictates what a lot of people believe happens around the world. It's just too bad that so many people believe it.

  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by fixbikeguy
    The media really dictates what a lot of people believe happens around the world. It's just too bad that so many people believe it.
    +100
    Why would I care about 150g of bike weight, I just ate 400g of cookies while reading this?

  67. #67
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    All of you guys who think that by buying only "american-made" helps the economy and keeps the dollars in america only are living in a pipe-dream.

    You maybe the same people who believe that inmigration is the cause of economical ruin in your state...so build a higher fence to keep them out!

    Let me guess you also drink beers with hops grown only in the US right, and all of your wear is made with US cotton and made in the US right?

    LOL. Grow up people, and quit being suckered by the hype. If you believe in the american way of doing things (here I refer to capitalism, what helped propelled the american economy to what it is now) then world-wide-trade is all part of the equation. INEVITABLE it's been going on FOREVER .

    Educate yourselves before you open your mouth and make IGNORANT (lack of educated comments).

    It is a paradox and a contradiction in itself to want to live in the US the american way and complaining about the sourcing of jobs overseas or accross the borders. The US economy is an IMPERIALIST who has for hundreds of years gone abroad to acquire natural resources from other countries either by force or corruption to fulfill the needs of the american population and protect the investment of its enterprise abroad.

    Hmmm. Let me start with bananas, cacao, coffee, etc. Hundres of years oppressing so that you can stuff your mouth every morning and say "I want AMERICAN".

    Maybe in today's time it is not so blatant, and nationals in their countries have caught up and gotten a bit smarter about how they sell their resources in a world-wide-market.

    Where is that computer from that you are typing on?

    People it is a smoke screen, look at the real issue here, don't be part of the herd.
    Last edited by hozzerr1; 01-10-2011 at 10:43 AM.

  68. #68
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    BTW, labor is a resource and if MB (marginal benefit) will exceed MC (marginal cost) then in a market system with competition and demand, prices can't always be undercut. Thus economic efficiency dictates that the resources used be least-cost (jobs abroad).

  69. #69
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    dear hozzerr1

    well said.

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    [QUOTE=Scary]
    Quote Originally Posted by flymybike
    I'd love To see the "accommodations".Or how much is charged for food at the company store.Are they even allowed outside food?Or do they have to buy it there?What are the REAL hours worked?
    Sounds like you can move production back to the US since we are now so cheap,no?
    I'm sure the're better than an oil feild roustabout bunkhouse, or a coalminers Tar-paper shack, or any public housing project, here in the Good Ole U.S. of A.
    The guy yo' momma "act" like she don't know!

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by fixbikeguy
    The media really dictates what a lot of people believe happens around the world. It's just too bad that so many people believe it.
    The guy yo' momma "act" like she don't know!

  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iceman2058
    Apparently the Chinese came up with this idea when sifting through some of the action pictures from the latest Tiananmen Square ride.
    "arh, yes, this vel'good, what happens when you run over bike with tank...arh, yes, you get TankBike - is vel'good idee, vel'good..."
    Fail, that's German WW2 vintage.
    The guy yo' momma "act" like she don't know!

  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by hozzerr1
    All of you guys who think that by buying only "american-made" helps the economy and keeps the dollars in america only are living in a pipe-dream.

    You maybe the same people who believe that inmigration is the cause of economical ruin in your state...so build a higher fence to keep them out!

    Let me guess you also drink beers with hops grown only in the US right, and all of your wear is made with US cotton and made in the US right?

    LOL. Grow up people, and quit being suckered by the hype. If you believe in the american way of doing things (here I refer to capitalism, what helped propelled the american economy to what it is now) then world-wide-trade is all part of the equation. INEVITABLE it's been going on FOREVER .

    Educate yourselves before you open your mouth and make IGNORANT (lack of educated comments).

    It is a paradox and a contradiction in itself to want to live in the US the american way and complaining about the sourcing of jobs overseas or accross the borders. The US economy is an IMPERIALIST who has for hundreds of years gone abroad to acquire natural resources from other countries either by force or corruption to fulfill the needs of the american population and protect the investment of its enterprise abroad.

    Hmmm. Let me start with bananas, cacao, coffee, etc. Hundres of years oppressing so that you can stuff your mouth every morning and say "I want AMERICAN".

    Maybe in today's time it is not so blatant, and nationals in their countries have caught up and gotten a bit smarter about how they sell their resources in a world-wide-market.

    Where is that computer from that you are typing on?

    People it is a smoke screen, look at the real issue here, don't be part of the herd.
    Umm, what's a smoke screen? Real issue?

    I think we all realize we are using imported products, and have been to some extent for a while.

    Are you suggesting that we just accept it, and go with the flow?

    I will let more intelligent folks speak: http://www.examiner.com/geopolitics-...global-economy

    I'm not opposed to foreign made products and I hope my dollar is supporting human-kind globally. But I think ideally we keep things local. As foreign labor rates go up and global shipping costs rise, it makes more and more sense to bring the work back here.

  74. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by hozzerr1
    All of you guys who think that by buying only "american-made" helps the economy and keeps the dollars in america only are living in a pipe-dream. ............
    Unfortunately, I don't have time to respond to this posting or some other postings in as much detail as I would like.

    However, I do want to say a few things:
    -No one on here has advocated isolationism. People would like to know where there products are produced and in some cases under what conditions they are made.

    Quote Originally Posted by hozzerr1
    The US economy is an IMPERIALIST who has for hundreds of years gone abroad to acquire natural resources from other countries either by force or corruption to fulfill the needs of the american population and protect the investment of its enterprise abroad.
    No s..., every country with any sort of power does this. It's been done for thousands of years. Want to point out some more obvious things? Want to point out that people tend to act in what benefits themselves. Or perhaps that the sky is blue.

    Quote Originally Posted by hozzerr1
    Educate yourselves before you open your mouth and make IGNORANT (lack of educated comments).
    With the exception of the beginning of this thread I would say the comments have been pretty good. You're posting is definitely not the most intelligent one. Besides if you don't like it then don't participate in it.

    Quote Originally Posted by hozzerr1
    All of you guys who think that by buying only "american-made" helps the economy and keeps the dollars in america only are living in a pipe-dream.
    Quote Originally Posted by hozzerr1
    Hmmm. Let me start with bananas, cacao, coffee, etc. Hundres of years oppressing so that you can stuff your mouth every morning and say "I want AMERICAN".
    There are some of us that do look at where our food and other product comes from and don't live what you view as the "typical American life".

    Quote Originally Posted by hozzerr1
    You maybe the same people who believe that inmigration is the cause of economical ruin in your state...so build a higher fence to keep them out!
    I would really like to get into this with you but this is not the proper thread or site for this.

    In conclusion: Of course as other countries develop and the quality of living increases and etc the trade disparity is going to even out and every country is going to evolve towards it's specialization but right now there is a major disparity. I am all for the world evolving and becoming efficient as possible but there is nothing wrong nor is it a pipe dream to want to support locally made products.

  75. #75
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    Even though I've said this in previous postings I will restate it.

    I do not have a problem with foreign made products. I think it's a consumer decision and people should be aware of where their good originate from. If they so choose to not support a country for whatever reason they see fit then so be it. There is nothing wrong with being an educated consumer. They are not automatically xenophobes or isolationist as some people have tried to label them.

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    kdiff, very well said!!! I think you'd like the article I posted above.

  77. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pslide
    kdiff, very well said!!! I think you'd like the article I posted above.
    Thanks, I'll check it out as soon as I can take a break from my work.

  78. #78
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    moving the the recycle bin in 5..4..3..

  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by hafnz
    At the moment I wouldn't, simply because I'm not given the chance to choose it. I don't believe they have wholesale markets for/with Chinese food where I live, only for consumer objects.

    Also, at the moment it's impossible to live to such expectation of being able to buy everything from country A. Most people make their choices based on price/quality leaving the place where it's made to being an added value/or not.
    Thanks for your reply.... Interesting to say that you wouldnt, for the reason that you will already be buying a large quantity of food grown in China.... Do you read the labels as to where your food comes from?

    Having worked in China considerably with food production, I will NOT purchase food produced in China if I can.... Building of frames and cheap labour is one thing, but the production of food that does not meet Food safety standards is another thing altogether, for me it renders your argument null..... People are not eating frames (well hope not), but putting food into our bodies that doesnt meet standards is wrong....

    Back to frames people......
    The_Lecht_Rocks: whafe - cheeers - may i offer an official apology for the wagon wheeler "dis-belief"

  80. #80
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    Thread fail.
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  81. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pslide
    I will let more intelligent folks speak: http://www.examiner.com/geopolitics-...global-economy
    Pslide, excellent article! Everyone that's posted on here should read it and think about it.

    It even touches on stuff that we have not brought up on here such as government incentives and currency manipulation. Things that work against people wanting/thinking we should just have a laissez-faire attitude with imports and exports at this moment in time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim311
    Thread fail.
    Thanks for the post Jim311. I see how you made it to 5,333 postings. Better watch out saturnine is catching you!

  82. #82
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    dont for get Cove Bikes, hand built in Canada

  83. #83
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    Anybody whom believes that they know where something is made, gotta check up on the subject.
    The "made in XXXXX" label, just states where the last major task was performed.

    if you start taking the item apart, piece by piece, you'll find that VERY few things are not partly made in China, and hardly any, if any at all, are made 100% where it claims to be made.

    I just noticed Intense was brought up as being "made in USA".
    Exactly how much of it is actually made in the USA?
    Take a look at the bearings?
    What about the extrusions?
    Is the raw material made in USA?
    The paint?

    ....and so forth.

    You'll find that as some has already stated, things has gone pretty international, and believing in a products quality, just because it has a "made in (insert you favorite country) label, is pretty naive in the world of today.

    Another good example of this, is the way it works here in Denmark (part of Scandinavia).
    Here "made in Denmark" is a major sales argument, as for instance Bang and Olufsen is using it. Fact is though, that Denmark has no (as in none) facilities that actually manufactures LCD panels, which I would claim to be a major part of a tv set.
    Never the less does B&O TV sets sport a "made in Denmark" label.

    Magura

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    Magura, you are correct. I think at this point most are not so naive that they can read the label and think that's where everything in said good originated from. However, there does have to be a starting point and the "made in xxxx" works as that. Its not sufficient at this point but it is something.

    For some products we have x% originated from y country and z% came from....etc. But, for the most part everything is from the inadequate label you mentioned.

    Being an Intense owner I would be curious to know the answers above.

  85. #85
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    To be honest, I don't think even the purchaser at Intense knows the answers to many of those questions.
    The path of products is often so hard to keep track of, that even companies whom are actually trying to, often fail.

    Frequently we have cases in the news here in Denmark, about companies whom have sold something as being of a specific origin, later to be proven wrong. Mostly this is an issue regarding food around here, but I think the same goes for just about anything else.

    Magura

  86. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Magura
    Another good example of this, is the way it works here in Denmark (part of Scandinavia).
    Here "made in Denmark" is a major sales argument, as for instance Bang and Olufsen is using it. Fact is though, that Denmark has no (as in none) facilities that actually manufactures LCD panels, which I would claim to be a major part of a tv set.
    Never the less does B&O TV sets sport a "made in Denmark" label.

    Magura
    Truth. New Balance makes shoes and claims them to be made in the US, but recognizes on their own label that only 70% of the products components need to originate in the US to earn that designation.
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  87. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tim F.
    Fail, that's German WW2 vintage.
    Please refrain from bringing facts into internet discussions, you will only confuse everybody.

    On a more serious note, as the world has so many times showed us by now, solidarity and socialism are 2 very different things, and I really do take issue with the way Chinese "leaders" abuse that country in the name of some twisted ideal that they have conveniently adopted for the great benefit of the inner elite. Everybody is equal, only some are more equal than others.

    But in keeping with our grand western tradition, I huff and puff and tut-tut to my heart's content, then I look the other way when I realise that I can buy my kid a new toy for 1/3rd of the price of the same item last year (because it was made by some less fortunate kid in a Chinese factory).
    Similarly, a 1% tax on all western world salaries could probably wipe out hunger in Africa overnight - but you try taking away $500 from an average family's yearly income, and people will be burning tires in the street - then they'll go home and cry over some shocking image of a starving African kid on the news. Hands up - who on this board is prepared to switch from X0 to X7 so that 2 kids in Africa can have rice and clean water for a year? "Yeah but dude, the X0 shifting is so much crisper, I feel like a better rider with that $hit...".
    We are all fair-weather friends...when the sun is out, it sure feels great to stop and help a fellow human in need (after all, isn't giving one of the most selfish things we do - nothing else makes us feel quite as good about ourselves does it?)....but when it pours, we look the other way and continue about our business. Very few of us should feel beyond criticism when it comes to the inequalities of the world - we all helped make it what it is today, whether indirectly or not. Buying some welded aluminium tubes from Canada won't get you off the hook. Eh.

  88. #88
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    Hozzer,please tell me socialism is the answer.
    I need to laugh.

    And to the thread haters-this is actually pretty interesting stuff,if you put down Call of Duty and the Cool Ranch Doritos and self educate.Or ,at least ask questions and pretend to be interested in more than your bong.
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  89. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by kdiff
    Thanks for the post Jim311. I see how you made it to 5,333 postings. Better watch out saturnine is catching you!
    5 month riding season leads to a lot of downtime. granted, i am aware of the internets 'forum elitist' rule wherein lower postcount inexplicably equals wisdom and relevance.

  90. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by saturnine
    5 month riding season leads to a lot of downtime. granted, i am aware of the internets 'forum elitist' rule wherein lower postcount inexplicably equals wisdom and relevance.
    saturnine, it was joke and you were mostly there for helping me make fun of Jim311's stupid post...though to be fair your post didn't make much sense (hence why I used you), so expect to get a little flack. All in all I don't mean any offense, we are on here to discuss issues that relate to mountain biking and have a good time.

    A quick digression: in my experience most people tend treat people with low post counts as "noobs" and look down on them since they feel some elite status for having a lot of posts. The opposite of what you mentioned.

  91. #91
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    it's all about the join date.

    i would love to actually add objective data to this thread, but i think it is beyond saving at this point. if it were about weights instead of country of origin then we'd have ourselves a winner. on a somewhat related note - i do put some merit into having parts on my bike that are made in north america or another country which i deem to have high manufacturing standards. not to say that taiwan is of lower quality, but when marzocchi went from italy to taiwan, it all went to ****. now i equate that to growing pains and new experiences, but it has to count for something when pre-2008 marz stuff is held in such high regard. i personally have a lot of made in canada raceface parts and brakes made in italy, but at the end of the day, they are on a mass-produced taiwanese frame as a higher quality north american-made frame is thousands of dollars out of my budget. i suppose i buy back my pride piece-by-piece with parts that work for me AND are made in BC. however, on the whole, it's slighlty irrelevant as there will always be something that doesn't fit that mould.

    i owned a yeti dj from the last run that was made in colorado and one from taiwan and they were the damn same. certainly deserving of the yeti name.

  92. #92
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    Dear Scary,

    Socialism is not the answer; Communism would seem a much better alternative, but we already know that the proletariat did not get what Lenin and Marx said he would.

    IMHO in pure capitalism or laissez-faire capitalism, the government's role is limited, but not abandoned or bought for the interest of the few who hold the wealth. Yet capitalism is IMHO the best that there is. I have lived in both Communist and Socialist countries or a combination of both and while socialism offers some perks it is a volatile environment. Communism is a police state and not what Che Guevara envisioned or Idealist like Sandino died for.

    My rant (not an excuse) stems from the lack of knowledge that most peeps out there have about matters that affect them daily, and how they listened indiscretely to the news and believe all the politicized news that are fed accross the waves.

    People allow themselves mostly unconciously to be subjected to this love/hate relationship with their government; red or blue, mine's better than yours, etc. while the pigs sit down at the same table to break bread and plan how it's gonna go down. Then they come out and wash their hands like Pontius Pilate. Come awnn.

    I say this because if you remove the politicized agendas from a true form of capitalism then the dang unions wouldn't be purchasing power and pushing the jobs outside of the states. Corporations would have more incentives to form and grow.
    Yes some labor may still be bought abroad, because of free enterprise and because of specificity/comparative advantages, blah, blah, blha.

    And truthfully the US consujmption has shfted dramatically, by no fault of our own, at least on the surface. We import 3 times more than we export. And what we export employs a fraction very tiny of the US jobs... I leave it as that.

    A fun fact: NAFTA is not to blame, in fact it has helped increase the standard of living in Canada, US, and Mexico. Nafta helped create jobs here, but global competition is a biotch, and demand wants it.

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    Wow this thread went to hell. It's quite interesting to see the amount of intelligence on this thread. I know I lack that trait but it's funny that these debates are nothing more than an egocentric way to flex ones assumed knowledge on any given subject. Regardless all the debates on the net are based on elitist mentalities. So true, why I try to not get emotional on Internet bravado.

  94. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by eride1
    Wow this thread went to hell. It's quite interesting to see the amount of intelligence on this thread. I know I lack that trait but it's funny that these debates are nothing more than an egocentric way to flex ones assumed knowledge on any given subject. Regardless all the debates on the net are based on elitist mentalities. So true, why I try to not get emotional on Internet bravado.
    So in other words, you are even more elite than the elitists?

  95. #95

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    Quote Originally Posted by Whafe
    Thanks for your reply.... Interesting to say that you wouldnt, for the reason that you will already be buying a large quantity of food grown in China.... Do you read the labels as to where your food comes from?
    Not that I'm aware of, as I do read them.
    It can be different in other countries, but where I live, in Europe, I'm not aware that we import chinese wholesale product.

  96. #96
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    [QUOTE=flymybike]
    Quote Originally Posted by Scary

    The philippine workers are here because there are very few jobs back home. They are provided free dorm style accomidations (remembering college days) including electrical, water, etc.

    Everyone here is given lunch, everyday and they can eat it if they want or bring there own food or go out to lunch, just like anywhere. I chose to eat with the workers.

    Most workers are 8 to 5 with an unpayed hour lunch and a few of the higher up's on salary stay later. The workers are very commited and will work over time if needed. It's a choice, they have free will like the rest of us. The philippine workers are all hourly. Because there away from there familys, they work overtime every chance they get. That usually means working as late as 10 pm and saturdays commonly. They need the money to support there familys, all of them support there wife, kids, parents and even extended family. The job market is that bad. They are here happily sacrificing three years of there life to make the familys lives better. I can respect that and I'm happy to support it.
    I have some friends who are working in factories in Taiwan, I admire their sacrifices to support their families in the Philippines. Please, give them a raise!
    Folangag

  97. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by hozzerr1

    People allow themselves mostly unconciously to be subjected to this love/hate relationship with their government; red or blue, mine's better than yours, etc. while the pigs sit down at the same table to break bread and plan how it's gonna go down. Then they come out and wash their hands like Pontius Pilate. Come awnn.

    A fun fact: NAFTA is not to blame, in fact it has helped increase the standard of living in Canada, US, and Mexico. Nafta helped create jobs here, but global competition is a biotch, and demand wants it.
    Yes on the first part fire all the clowns in congress/senate. First rule no more lawyers. The second one not so much. NAFTA is cute for Mexico they get Americans that need their watermelon, oranges, strawberries in middle of winter. So they love it a huge market with actual money. Then the spray DDT (which I think is a great form of pest control) and other chemicals that are illegal in the US some of which are highly toxic. I will never knowingly eat a product grown in Mexico this is from 4 years of AGB at Cal Poly. Sort of scary but that is an easy one to avoid.

  98. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by kdiff
    Thanks for the post Jim311. I see how you made it to 5,333 postings. Better watch out saturnine is catching you!

    I am not much interested in politics or economics on my mountain bike forums, if you want that maybe head over to F88me or something. Virtually everything we use on our mountain bikes (from components to clothes) is made in some other country. I choose not to live in some protectionist bubble and realize that not everything can be made here, and maybe just sometimes things are even BETTER quality when they're built over seas. Better riding gear is made more affordable. Is there cheap crap made overseas? Sure. But there's also lots of good stuff made there too, and that's the stuff I buy. Anyway, enjoy your political tirades but I'll try to stick to talking about mountain bikes rather than politics here, and calling out people who take themselves entirely too seriously when it's warranted.
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  99. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iceman2058
    So in other words, you are even more elite than the elitists?
    rofl

  100. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim311
    I am not much interested in politics or economics on my mountain bike forums, if you want that maybe head over to F88me or something. ......................................Anyway, enjoy your political tirades but I'll try to stick to talking about mountain bikes rather than politics here, and calling out people who take themselves entirely too seriously when it's warranted.
    You're not interested (or you're too cool) yet you can't resist commenting the thread? Yes you really called some people out with:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim311
    Thread fail.
    If you're not into where something is made that is fine, but it is a relevant part of the industry.

  101. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by kdiff
    You're not interested (or you're too cool) yet you can't resist commenting the thread? Yes you really called some people out with:



    If you're not into where something is made that is fine, but it is a relevant part of the industry.

    This has absolutely nothing to do with downhill or freeride. I don't see how it's relevant.
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  102. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim311
    This has absolutely nothing to do with downhill or freeride. I don't see how it's relevant.
    Yeah, you are right. It is no longer about DH/Freeride. It should be in another section with what it turned into. However, people seem to be enjoying it and it's something different then the same topic rehashed.

    Also, I don't think the OP intended for it to be political. It was originally just supposed to be a list of where parts were made. (I'm assuming DH components since it was started in this section.) But, a few of initial posters took it in another direction and started turning it into a somewhat different topic. It is what it is at this point and I don't see the harm in it. If you think it doesn't belong then you don't add anything. That's what I do for anyways.

  103. #103
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    It's just one of many subjects here that cannot be talked about without it devolving into a total pissing match and completely derailed by wacky opinions, haters, fanboys, etc. That's one thing I hate about this site, and the internet in general, AND one of the reasons I rarely choose to participate and simply throw rocks from afar at the people who do. I see the same threads regurgitated over and over and have grown so tired of them. You ever see a thread about Bikes Direct? It's filled with haters who've never purchased something from them, LBS owners who hate because they can't compete, blind followers of the major brand names, and a few wild personal attacks interspersed. Nothing gets accomplished other than a verbose debate amongst people who will never agree, so what's the point?
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    I would argue that you can learn something from this thread, if folks can get past their apathy.

    I actually quite enjoyed hozzerr1 last post, despite differing opinions. I think I could learn from him and his experiences and different point of view. Would love to have a beer with him.

  105. #105
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    Jim311, I agree with you for the most part. Most people are not going to get anything out of it. It's sort of you get what you want out of it. However, there are some people on here that want to get something out of it and will get something out of it. Granted, sometimes people go off on tangents or it gets a little heated but all in all I think it's been a pretty good thread.

    There have been those comments where people just snipe at others and add nothing. For example I don't really like it when people call someone ignorant and then tell them they shouldn't open their mouths, if that person is ignorant then help them. There are people on here that are in the industry or have friends that are in the industry (norbar) and can share their knowledge. There was also an interesting article link posted where people could read more on certain importing & exporting and the importance of manufacturing in the US.

    We've had some really good posters such as Pslide, norbar, Scary, Mr.Magura, and hozzerr1, Berkley, hafnz, etc. I don't agree with all of them, but I think they've all added some value rather then just be haters.


    I never saw the Bikes Direct thread but I can imagine. I've seen some threads on here get really out of hand. I think this thread was originally going in that direction with people calling the OP a "hippie", "xenophobe", and etc without saying anything else or even trying to justify it. To be honest I was kind of disappointed by a few of the early posters whom I had good impressions from in other threads.

  106. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim311
    ....simply throw rocks from afar at the people who do....
    Did you check that you are not living in a glass house?

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    Globalism is real, and has cocktail-mixed the manufacturing economy

    Taiwanese factories are leading high-end bicycle frame and component production because they (many family owned firms) invested heavily in technology and hired some skilled workers who get paid good $$$ for their labours...

    a good 'plant' (factory) is a good plant whether located in Taiwan, China, the UK, America, Australia, etc.


    a "domestic" manufacturer is no guarantee of quality, I have some some shockingly badly USA built high-end frames that would be shamed by any mainstream Taiwanese built brands like Specialized or Trek


    in the UK we have a handful of small manufacturers actually manufacturing here in the UK

    the reason I like buying stock from these companies for my shop is; slightly a sense of pride in home-grown manufacturing, but more importantly because they make great products and stand behind their products, if you have an issue you call call them and actually speak to the people who make these products!

    as an example, if we ever have a problem with a Hope hub, we can call Hope and speak to a guy on the factory floor who actually makes the product

    as another example, a customer bought a wheel with a 24-Seven hub (made in Taiwan) and within 6 months the freehub failed during normal use - we called 24-Seven here in the UK and they could not sell us a new freehub body as they do not stock this item, but were more than happy to sell us a new hub....for us to lace into the wheel at the customer's cost


    examples of some UK companies manufacturing products in the UK, using materials sourced either in the UK, in the EU or elsewhere


    Hope Technology
    - hubs, stems, disc brakes, wheel skewers, seat clamps, bike cleaner, lights (LED emitter and battery made in China)

    Middleburn - chainrings, chainring bolts

    Renthal - chainrings, stems, handlebars

    BETD - suspension replacement parts, Goldtec components, Burgtec hubs

    Endura - custom Team clothing made in UK, production clothing made in China

    Orange - full suspension frames and box-section hardtail frames (all other frames made in Taiwan)

  108. #108
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    I think the OP meant well, but could have phrased his post better. Less focus on first/second/third world countries, and more focus on where individual parts are made/sourced/painted/whatever. It's a perfectly fine question to ask, but needs a little more tact.

    Plus, folks on these forums usually don't respond too well when someone starts a post with the intent of making a comprehensive database, and then proceed to leave most of the research up to the replying posters. It's one thing when you start a post, and do the bulk of the research and ask for help to fill the remaining holes, another thing when you expect people to do it for you.
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  109. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iceman2058
    Did you check that you are not living in a glass house?

    No wonder it's so damn bright in here. I thought I just needed to buy some curtains!
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  110. #110
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    Well,I for one,have enjoyed the posts.There are alot of informed people on here.Whether I agree with their conclusions is another thing.I'm just glad it wasn't another thread on bb height.
    Plus,I learned alot of new,bigger words that mean the same thing as the words I already know.
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  111. #111
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    I think the main point the OP was trying to accomplish was creating a simple list for people who don't want to buy crap. I'm in no way saying stuff made over seas is crap...... anymore, but you can't seriously tell me that products made in Asia, in particular, in the past weren't complete garbage, and for many people it is hard to over come that thought today.
    "The sound of a car door opening in front of you is similar to the sound of a gun being cocked."

  112. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by pablo4429
    Sorry let me rephrase that. Not 1st world companies, companies that actually make their products in first world countries. If you want to call first Taiwan and China first world countries fine, but they still treat their employees like dirt and that is really the point here. Try to support companies that do not exploit people for cheap labor. I do not want to get into a debate about the ethics of said labor or how "everyone is doing it," that is not the point at all. This is simply a thread to list companies that manufactures their goods in house (in their respective countries).

    They do huh? Is this all just speculation from your assumptions or something one of these so-called 1st world manufacturers claim, or have you physically been to Taiwan and China and been inside a factory that makes frames and/or components? Because you really can't base any judgement off of anything till you witness what Taiwan and China are doing firsthand.

    It'd be kind of like me saying that you suck at getting girlfriends because you're not SMT because SMT always posts pictures of hot chicks and you don't. Kinda baseless grounds for an assumption eh? Especially since I have never met you or SMT and you're probably both rad guys and probably both can get hot chicks.
    The arsonist has oddly shaped feet!

  113. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by C S
    Sounds like somebody is slightly butthurt

    Ever consider that some of us CHOOSE to buy things that are made in the USA because we WANT to? I won't attempt to offer some objective reason to do so because someone will attempt to dispute it. Both of my frames (Titus Motolite and Intense 951) were made in the USA, a fact that I am proud of. I am also working toward replacing components on these frames with parts made in the USA because I'd rather spend my $ supporting American workers. It's hard but worth it *in my opinion* A few years ago, I couldn't afford to buy American as much as I would have liked, so I'm not going to knock anyone who doesn't.
    What happens when your Shimano/Sram equipped drivetrain starts to fail? They're both made overseas. How about your cables and housing? Your tires are made in one of 4-5 factories in the world and neither of them are in the USA, they're just about all in Asia. Unless you're running King hubs they were most likely made overseas, and if they weren't your freehub bodies almost certainly were. Rims, pedals, handlebars, grips, saddles... Your Fox/TLD/661 helmet, gloves, and riding gear were all more likely than not made overseas.

    So what if your frame is American made... And yep you might have an american made shock. But those are about the only things you can replace with "American" made.
    The arsonist has oddly shaped feet!

  114. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by his dudeness
    What happens when your Shimano/Sram equipped drivetrain starts to fail? They're both made overseas. How about your cables and housing? Your tires are made in one of 4-5 factories in the world and neither of them are in the USA, they're just about all in Asia. Unless you're running King hubs they were most likely made overseas, and if they weren't your freehub bodies almost certainly were. Rims, pedals, handlebars, grips, saddles... Your Fox/TLD/661 helmet, gloves, and riding gear were all more likely than not made overseas.

    So what if your frame is American made... And yep you might have an american made shock. But those are about the only things you can replace with "American" made.
    Here's what: that is, by far, the most single most expensive purchase I made in the last year. Of all my purchases, not just biking related, although the suspension upgrade on my Jeep came close (also made in the USA ) Can I replace everything? Hell no. Frame and shock: both made in the USA. Fork: second hand, looking into replacing soon. Recently replaced my rear hub with a Hadley and will soon get another Hadley for the front. That covers the most expensive parts of my bike. Oh yeah, bar and pedals from Smac. The point is, I intend to spend the majority of my $$ on parts made in the USA. It is entirely impossible to replace everything, but I realize that. Had this thread not gotten hijacked, it could have been an extremely useful source of information.

    Like I said, I personally don't give a damn if somebody on the internet disagrees with the way I choose to spend my money, but I post to show others that it is possible to make such a change. I've debated this topic IRL multiple times and will continue to do so, but you know what they say about arguing on the internet...

  115. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by hozzerr1
    People allow themselves mostly unconciously to be subjected to this love/hate relationship with their government; red or blue, mine's better than yours, etc. while the pigs sit down at the same table to break bread and plan how it's gonna go down. Then they come out and wash their hands like Pontius Pilate. Come awnn.

    I say this because if you remove the politicized agendas from a true form of capitalism then the dang unions wouldn't be purchasing power and pushing the jobs outside of the states. Corporations would have more incentives to form and grow.
    Yes some labor may still be bought abroad, because of free enterprise and because of specificity/comparative advantages, blah, blah, blha.
    One of the most intelligent things I've read in this thread

  116. #116
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    Well this thread actually turned out semi interesting, besides the me being a xenophobe and all. Granted, I have never been to Taiwan or China or manufacturing plants in general but I assumed and still hold the assumption that if it is somehow cheaper to have goods imported to those countries, the products manufactured, the workers apparently housed, fed lunch, while working 8 hour days and then shipped to the States and still be cheaper than building the same thing here something has to be different, it just doesn't add up and the things that seem most suspect are labor process or some level of the manufacturing process. Again I admit to not knowing a lot on the topic, I only recently took interest in it and have begun looking into and reading as seemingly unbiased information about the topic that I can find so please refrain from all the ignorance or fail posts, they do nobody any good I am simply stating my opinion as it stands currently. If anyone can outline how the costs are kept so low as to allow this style of manufacture I would be very interested, is it just a case of we are too expensive or are they more efficient or they work and accept much lower wages or is their cost of living that much lower and if so why? Yes this is all information that can be found but anyone who wants to point in a direction or post an interesting link like the one earlier would be nice as well. It seems that many aspects of cheap labor on the whole, maybe not in the bike industry or (insert chosen industry you may know or have been involved with that can provide an anecdotal counter example), are unfair and border on indentured servitude, that cannot be denied. That is what I find interesting, how such a mass of people can be treated like this and not rise up en masse, how long it will take people to do so, or what has happened in the past when they have. I may start another thread with all the companies listed on here but word it as easily as possible if you all think it would be useful? I will say though, it is nice to see people with strong opinions about SOMETHING rather than just bouncing through life not trying to figure out what is happening in our world and how the power that be operate. All to often it seems many people are so indifferent to everything and don't care why they want what they want or where it came from and are driven like mad to acquire goods rather than knowledge. Again, yes I am a college student so some think that automatically makes me a bleeding heart liberal and that I am just afraid of the man without and grounded basis for being so, but it most definitely does not.

  117. #117
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    Well, at least be more liberal with the space bar.
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  118. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by pablo4429
    Granted, I have never been to Taiwan or China or manufacturing plants in general but I assumed and still hold the assumption that if it is somehow cheaper to have goods imported to those countries, the products manufactured, the workers apparently housed, fed lunch, while working 8 hour days and then shipped to the States and still be cheaper than building the same thing here something has to be different, it just doesn't add up and the things that seem most suspect are labor process or some level of the manufacturing process.
    I take it you are not a business major?

    Part of my work included visiting client facilities (everything from biotech to under ground coal mines). As a result I've been to a fair number of places in Asia and a few places in Europe and have seen a fair number of factories. My dad was also involved the import & export of goods from China before it became as popular as it is now.

    Unfortunately I don't have a lot of time tonight but I can give you a quick outline of what I know based on what I've seen and researched (reading, interviewing people with experience, etc). It's not specific to the bike industry but I have no reason to know why they would be different then any other industry.

    Labor Related:
    -Workers in China, Vietnam, Indonesia, Cambodia are often bused from their village into factories where they live for months or about 2 years. The living conditions are typically dorm style (2-3 per room) or army barrack style except the building is obviously different (they are multistory concrete/cinder block). The bathrooms are sometimes communal. Food may be communal but is often cafeteria style. Workers are typically charged for rent & food. (Hence why Scary's question to Canfield was very valid.) Workers often work 6 days a week and between 8-10hrs a day (sometimes more). The working conditions were not unsafe either. *Note: I would not say they are exploited. Some people on here might, but I don't think I ever viewed anything that extreme. It's a definitely different mindset and a different way of life.
    -The workers were not always bused in. For smaller facilities and etc the factory could typically get enough workers in the village that it was located in.
    -The pay is obviously not anywhere close to what a banker in Beijing is making, but it's a fair amount more then they would be making on the family farm.

    -Workers in Taiwan have it pretty similar to what I saw in factories in Indiana and etc.
    -Some wealthier Asian countries, such as Taiwan will bring in labor from poorer countries or countries with a high unemployment (example: Philippines.) From what I saw these people were treated well and paid higher then the typical Chinese worker. Typically their stay is 1 or 2 years.

    Misc factors:
    -Capital Costs: many of the companies (at least the smaller ones) do not actually own the factories that their goods are produced in. (There is typically a minimum production amount.) Therefore they can reduce their capital costs and easily adjust them based on demand. It's often up to the factory owner to maximize the facilities usage.

    -Efficiency: Many raw goods are processed over in Asia and a result it makes it easy to include all stages of production in one central location. (This could be a 4 page section all by it's self, so if you need more explanation do some research.)

    -Environmental Laws: I'm not going to debate if it's good or bad but the US is much stricter in this area

    -Misc. Labor & Liability Costs

    -Government subsidies

    -Currency manipulation (not talking about Taiwan)

    -I could and probably should get more into technology and machinery & equipment investment but I don't have time.

    Hope this helps. It's not complete but it should be something.
    Last edited by kdiff; 01-11-2011 at 11:26 PM.

  119. #119
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    Pablo,
    It's already been mentioned your opening post could have been worded better to properly convey your real intentions, which would have saved a bunch of bandwidth.

    I believe after sifting through this trainwreck I understand your point. May I respectfully suggest you do a little research on the history of Formosa. Before the ROC claimed the island. Then how the government was formed, the principles held by the modern Taiwanese people. The economic climb after WWII, a rise that has been called a "miracle".

    You'll learn in your research this island nation has been stripped of their natural resources, my ancestors almost removed every tree. You'll discover, with the assistance of US economic aid, the structure of the Taiwanese government, the structure of business in Taiwan, and the god damn grit and pride of the People of Taiwan, that Taiwan now has over 500 billion in trade/year, a standard of living not considered substandard, less unemployment rate than the USA. Manufacturing and industry is conducted differently than most areas, and they might have used the USA as a model not to follow. Instead of great conglomerates and government control of businesses, they have created a model that not only works very well for them but is unarguably very efficient.

    Don't take my word for it. Info is available. It's not paradise although USA EPA standards have made Taiwan a healthier place to live.

    I could of told you to take your assumptions and shove them up your ###. I could have said, based on what you said, you don't have a clue what you're talking about in regard to Taiwan. You asked for info to broaden your knowledge. I hope I provided a little to spark your interest to dig deep and find out how these bastards can pull this off.
    The suspension of your bike sucks if it's different than mine. Really. It sucks. Big time.

  120. #120
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    Kdiff,

    That was an explanation well given.

    Pablo,

    In simple terms: where there is a market, there is competition. Competition is good because it allows us the consumers to affect what is produced, the manufacturers will respond and compete to give us what they think we want. If they want to win us as customers and exchange their goods for our cash then they're gonna fight hard amongst each other.

    To make money they will have to find ways to produce at their least-cost effective way. Production will have to increase to stay competitive, globally. The more they produce the least it costs to produce in most factory environments (why must run 24/7), To afford to stay in the game manufacturer faces that dilemma. My most costly resource is labor, stay small and compete at smaller level with small profits and maybe get pushed out of market by bigger guys or get bought out (Gary Fisher), or go big and buy labor at lower cost (not in states).

    The culture of the company has lots to do with this, and the vision of its entrepreneurs as well as their ability to make critical desicions is key factor.

    Take Intense for example USA machined, and welded ( I've been inside the shop), they have found a formula that works for them. They have position their products in a level that allows them to stay in house. I mean by controlling their supply, their pricing strategy, marketting approach, they maynot be laughing their ass to the bank but they're surviving.

    Sure they are not buying top notch racers, but that just means that your dollars are not paying just for marketing and racers salaries, but are spread amongst most manufacturing costs.

    This is all in theory, for all I know Mr. Intense throws cash in his fireplace to stay warm...

    Loved the topic.



    Ianjenn,

    I didn't know about the DDT. That's scary and I will make sure I throughly wash all our fruits, vegetables (most are mexican, I just read the labels) from Costco.

  121. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by C S
    Here's what: that is, by far, the most single most expensive purchase I made in the last year. Of all my purchases, not just biking related, although the suspension upgrade on my Jeep came close (also made in the USA ) Can I replace everything? Hell no. Frame and shock: both made in the USA. Fork: second hand, looking into replacing soon. Recently replaced my rear hub with a Hadley and will soon get another Hadley for the front. That covers the most expensive parts of my bike. Oh yeah, bar and pedals from Smac. The point is, I intend to spend the majority of my $$ on parts made in the USA. It is entirely impossible to replace everything, but I realize that. Had this thread not gotten hijacked, it could have been an extremely useful source of information.

    Like I said, I personally don't give a damn if somebody on the internet disagrees with the way I choose to spend my money, but I post to show others that it is possible to make such a change. I've debated this topic IRL multiple times and will continue to do so, but you know what they say about arguing on the internet...
    Now take a look at the seals and bushings of your "American fork"?
    The bearings of you "American hub"?

    I bet you none of those are made in USA, however much you want it to be.


    Magura

  122. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iceman2058
    So in other words, you are even more elite than the elitists?
    Actually that does make sense doesn't it. I told you I lack this trait. But yeah I guess your right all hail the king. No but for reals I actually did find this thread to be quite interesting. It's interesting to see everyones views on things as I'm in a business that requires overseas importing as well as domestic production. Hey some of these guys like kdiff are pretty sharp cookies. A good guy to have on anyones team.

  123. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by eride1
    Hey some of these guys like kdiff are pretty sharp cookies. A good guy to have on anyones team.
    Thanks There are a lot of really good guys on this thread. It's been a lot of fun!

    Quote Originally Posted by hozzerr1
    Kdiff, That was an explanation well given.
    Thanks hozzerr1. I've enjoyed your last two postings. Very good!

    Quote Originally Posted by Berkley
    Well, at least be more liberal with the space bar.
    Lmao!

  124. #124
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    It is to laugh.

    Funny what people think. How high is the poverty line in these countries? Old rules are best: judge not lest ye be judged. One can't really say what's going on in someone else's world.

  125. #125
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    Who cares what the reason the original poster wants to buy American (Canadian and US)? I think it's a valid objective, if only to keep whatever portion that would really stay in America. I agree with the OP's goal of generating a list of companies as he desires, though his objectives got muddled in all the fighting. Sorry if that pisses people off.

    Totally fair to debate what is/is not American. However, if I remember my economics properly, the most value add is at the higher levels in the manufacturing operations because they require the most skilled labor (hence the most money). Where the raw materials and small parts come from (e.g. screws, bearings) don't have as much cause they generally are made with automated factories or by unskilled labor. I think it's a valid goal to try to achieve more skilled jobs where he wants. Not to mention that my recollection is that there are few, if any, aluminum mines in the US, so that would be an impossible goal in itself.

    Oh, and we do import foodstuffs from China. Remember when melamine (plastic) was getting into Chinese made dog food a couple years ago. Garlic is imported from China (they're putting domestic guys on the run), I'm sure other stuff is as well. Obviously, we import a lot of food from other place (e.g. Mexico, Chile), but I think that's one area we are still have a trade surplus in food mostly due to farm subsidies and efficiency, though that may change one day.
    Last edited by Swell Guy; 01-14-2011 at 12:40 AM.

  126. #126
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    This thread as turned into a WTF is going on thread.

    No matter what, life is going global. Buy the bike you like...supporting local really isn't what supporting local use to mean. Some handmade local frames are good, some are not. Most overseas built frames are good. Buying overseas from large factory made product should be cheaper, not always. Look at Pivots and Turners. Both boutique frames, both use DW link, one is Taiwan made, the other USA made. Basically pay the same price for either one...both are awesome quality, awesome bikes. Want to have pride and buy a handmade local frame that you can talk directly to the guy who welded it...the beauty of buying local. Just want to deal with the store you bought it at should warranty issues arise...then who cares, buy what gives you wood. In reality I truly believe that frames built overseas should not cost the same, or more then a quality handmade frame in the US from guys like Foes, Intense, Turner, Ellsworth, etc. If you are a frame maker and go overseas, then prices should be cheaper to us the consumer....disagree and that is why I would rather support quality handmade frames, as I do and cherish my beloved Foes that still is going strong after many years of abuse.

  127. #127
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    it's the world we live in.... get used to it.

    sooooooooooo many things are made over there.

    BFD
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  128. #128
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    Foes Racing makes their frames, shocks and forks in-house in Pasadena, California. They are top notch bikes.

  129. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by hexstatic
    dont for get Cove Bikes, hand built in Canada

    Not all of them, the Handjob & Sanchez frames are made in Taiwan, the Hummer frame is made in the USA.

  130. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by hozzerr1

    Ianjenn,

    I didn't know about the DDT. That's scary and I will make sure I throughly wash all our fruits, vegetables (most are mexican, I just read the labels) from Costco.
    Yeah DDT in itself is actually a pretty safe chemical agent. Although it was banned in the states due to possible softening of Peregrin Falcon eggs back in the mid eighties. Just wash the stuff well. You would be surprised how much stuff (fruit) you can find from the states. Look at the stickers.

  131. #131
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    I like to know if a product is American made...If I have to make a decision between two similar products I will buy the one made in America.

    That is all.

  132. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by dmar123
    I like to know if a product is American made...If I have to make a decision between two similar products I will buy the one made in America.

    That is all.
    x2

    .
    "The sound of a car door opening in front of you is similar to the sound of a gun being cocked."

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