inverted forks??- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    inverted forks??

    what happened to them? there are no more high end mainstream inverted froks anymore. i think they look cool and would very much like to see some for 07 or 08
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  2. #2
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    too flexy

  3. #3
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    i don't see how they are "too flexy"

    in motocross the inverted ones are alot more stiff, so if the mtn. bike ones are "too flexy" then it is poor design. i can see them weighing more though. i know of a few pro enduro racers who actually run right side up forks instead of inverted forks cause they like the flex of them, so i would think it'd be the same for biking.
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  4. #4
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    shivers were quite light actually
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  5. #5
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    oh and you can still buy a RISSIE inverted fork with 12" of travel for around 1400 lol
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  6. #6
    Juanjo
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    or for 1375USD you could buy a Groove 200

    http://www.whitebrotherscycling.com/...pecs=groove200
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by EastCoastHucker
    or for 1375USD you could buy a Groove 200

    http://www.whitebrotherscycling.com/...pecs=groove200
    whitebrothers is the sh*t. is that the WB fork you run ECH?
    "dropped outta school. no G.E.D. but in these streets i'm a G.O.D."
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  8. #8
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    I just think the mountain bike market isn't in demand for them anymore. In like 2002 there was a trend that the BIG heavy sled bikes were kick ass and awesome at downhill. I remember...the fatty frames, a big ol shiver, 3.0 tires etc. Now that technology has evolved, we are able to develop light, fairly reliable, and high performing standard Dual Crown forks.

    I'd personally choose against a Shiver because of weight issues, and I'd choose against a Dorado for maintanince issues.
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by ibanezrg520kid
    i don't see how they are "too flexy"

    in motocross the inverted ones are alot more stiff, so if the mtn. bike ones are "too flexy" then it is poor design. i can see them weighing more though. i know of a few pro enduro racers who actually run right side up forks instead of inverted forks cause they like the flex of them, so i would think it'd be the same for biking.
    Well, the motorcycle ones have 50mm stanchions and up, so we're talking hugeness, and the crowns are huge, and so on. With the smaller stanchions, they just never end up being as tortionally stiff as right side up forks, and as far as structures go, the right side up fork is far stiffer tortionally ,while the inverted is stiffer fore-aft. The absolute most horrible idea was single-crown inverted forks, because they loose out on most of the fore-aft stiffness as well as a huge amount of lateral, so it's easy to see why those fell out of favor. Who knows what motorcycles will do in the future, but you probably haven't seen the last of right-side-up forks. It depends on what you are looking at, in terms of "which" kind of stiffness, because either structure is "more efficiant" for a particular type of stiffness.

    The real thing is that when you go out past a certain amount of travel, you HAVE to have an inverted fork to get enough bushing overlap, otherwise you have to extend the lowers past the axle like on the marzocchi monster T and as seen on some manitou forks. So you run into a problem where you don't have enough overlap, and the only thing to do is to move to an inverted fork, and yes you'll take a little hit with the tortional rigidity, but that's the best way for them to have "long travel".

    Otherwise, those motos with 12 and 13" forks would kill them when they landed a little short, because there'd be like 2" of overlap, and that would be pretty dangerous.

    Because we can't put more than about 8" on the front of a mountain bike without jacking the geometry all up, we don't really run into this limitation much. 8" of travel is on the fringe, and most companies have been able to make it work fairly well, but you've noticed that most companies except rockshox go to much bigger stanchions for their 8" forks, due to the fact that they're getting out to that "limit" of minimal bushing overlap. This is why there are some 8" inverted forks such as white brothers, avalanche, and others. It's also much easier for some of the small-production companies like avalanche to make an inverted fork because they don't have to cast lowers, like marzocchi and RS do, which is more expensive to do, especially when you have a new fork line every year.

    I had a Stratos S8, it was the best stratos fork that I had (out of two) and it was a pretty nice fork. Worked well, and this one actually was fairly reliable (unlike my other stratos garbage). The thing was though that it was about a 10lb fork, and there was about 9.5-11" of clearance between the tire and the crown, so it just had a HUGE axle to crown distance. I then got a shiver, and the shiver was one of the BEST forks I've ever owned, probably the best. It had the same size stanchions as the S8, was way lighter, and while it had about 13mm less travel, it performed even better. The shiver was a killer fork, but not as laterally stiff as a good right-side-up fork in the same class.

    If I was going to buy a DH fork for a DH bike, and money was no question (I run a 66 on my trail/FR bike right now, and am happy with it), I'd buy the inverted 8" avalanche fork. I know I'd be giving up a little bit of stiffness, but they also use big crowns just like the big moto forks, and they actually have the damping technology to justify the huge strong moto chassi. Other companies like white brothers are just a joke in terms of the damping(and they only have 32mm stanchions), and I wouldn't buy any single crown inverted fork ever again, that was just a bad idea. If money was an issue, I'd go with something a little more mainstream, and if I really was short on money, I'd get a used shiver again due to how simple and easy they are to work on and rebuild.
    Last edited by Jayem; 08-12-2006 at 07:08 PM.
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  10. #10
    Juanjo
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    Quote Originally Posted by ibanezrg520kid
    whitebrothers is the sh*t. is that the WB fork you run ECH?
    kinda...
    I have the older WB DH-3 and after years of use still doing great.
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  11. #11
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    I'm just explaining the basics of forks here. I'm not into getting overly involved, but...
    Inverted forks don't move in sync. Two different legs move at two different rates... Especially on turns. They're one of the reasons for 20mm TA's. To stiffen up the difference between the two legs. This is the same reason in 97 everybody jumped on the one-piece-lowers bandwagon. Even though they were bolted together years back, the lowers traveled at two different rates and you could see the tire closer on one side of the lowers. Fahn

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by LarryFahn
    I'm just explaining the basics of forks here. I'm not into getting overly involved, but...
    Inverted forks don't move in sync. Two different legs move at two different rates... Especially on turns. They're one of the reasons for 20mm TA's. To stiffen up the difference between the two legs. This is the same reason in 97 everybody jumped on the one-piece-lowers bandwagon. Even though they were bolted together years back, the lowers traveled at two different rates and you could see the tire closer on one side of the lowers. Fahn
    that is true to some extent.. and then there is wheel flex to add on to that...
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    Well, the motorcycle ones have 50mm stanchions and up, so we're talking hugeness, and the crowns are huge, and so on. With the smaller stanchions, they just never end up being as tortionally stiff as right side up forks, and as far as structures go, the right side up fork is far stiffer tortionally ,while the inverted is stiffer fore-aft. The absolute most horrible idea was single-crown inverted forks, because they loose out on most of the fore-aft stiffness as well as a huge amount of lateral, so it's easy to see why those fell out of favor. Who knows what motorcycles will do in the future, but you probably haven't seen the last of right-side-up forks. It depends on what you are looking at, in terms of "which" kind of stiffness, because either structure is "more efficiant" for a particular type of stiffness.

    The real thing is that when you go out past a certain amount of travel, you HAVE to have an inverted fork to get enough bushing overlap, otherwise you have to extend the lowers past the axle like on the marzocchi monster T and as seen on some manitou forks. So you run into a problem where you don't have enough overlap, and the only thing to do is to move to an inverted fork, and yes you'll take a little hit with the tortional rigidity, but that's the best way for them to have "long travel".

    Otherwise, those motos with 12 and 13" forks would kill them when they landed a little short, because there'd be like 2" of overlap, and that would be pretty dangerous.

    Because we can't put more than about 8" on the front of a mountain bike without jacking the geometry all up, we don't really run into this limitation much. 8" of travel is on the fringe, and most companies have been able to make it work fairly well, but you've noticed that most companies except rockshox go to much bigger stanchions for their 8" forks, due to the fact that they're getting out to that "limit" of minimal bushing overlap. This is why there are some 8" inverted forks such as white brothers, avalanche, and others. It's also much easier for some of the small-production companies like avalanche to make an inverted fork because they don't have to cast lowers, like marzocchi and RS do, which is more expensive to do, especially when you have a new fork line every year.

    I had a Stratos S8, it was the best stratos fork that I had (out of two) and it was a pretty nice fork. Worked well, and this one actually was fairly reliable (unlike my other stratos garbage). The thing was though that it was about a 10lb fork, and there was about 9.5-11" of clearance between the tire and the crown, so it just had a HUGE axle to crown distance. I then got a shiver, and the shiver was one of the BEST forks I've ever owned, probably the best. It had the same size stanchions as the S8, was way lighter, and while it had about 13mm less travel, it performed even better. The shiver was a killer fork, but not as laterally stiff as a good right-side-up fork in the same class.

    If I was going to buy a DH fork for a DH bike, and money was no question (I run a 66 on my trail/FR bike right now, and am happy with it), I'd buy the inverted 8" avalanche fork. I know I'd be giving up a little bit of stiffness, but they also use big crowns just like the big moto forks, and they actually have the damping technology to justify the huge strong moto chassi. Other companies like white brothers are just a joke in terms of the damping(and they only have 32mm stanchions), and I wouldn't buy any single crown inverted fork ever again, that was just a bad idea. If money was an issue, I'd go with something a little more mainstream, and if I really was short on money, I'd get a used shiver again due to how simple and easy they are to work on and rebuild.
    of course the motorcycles have bigger everything. i'd say it all is proportional.
    "dropped outta school. no G.E.D. but in these streets i'm a G.O.D."
    -murs

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by ibanezrg520kid
    of course the motorcycles have bigger everything. i'd say it all is proportional.
    Motorcycles can have a similer amounts of travel front and rear, and they do. We can get 9, 10 and even 11" out of our DH bikes rear suspension, but can't really get over 8" in the front without jacking things all up. If the mx bikes had a lot less front travel, you might see more right-side-up forks on em, in fact you do see more right-side-up forks on motorbikes that have less travel, designed for many different purposes. That might be the real question, in situations where there is more overlap and less travel, why don't they use inverted forks on all the enduro bikes and others that don't have them.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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