informal market research/survey on lighter than titanium springs- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    informal market research/survey on lighter than titanium springs

    for those that don't know ,e. this is Brian from Therapy Components aka Brake Therapy

    I am going to try and introduce a line of suspension springs, starting with rear shock springs. The goal is to have springs as light or lighter than the current titanium springs on the market, at about half the price.

    So I have several questions. 1) who has purchased ti springs? b) what rate, length, stroke and diameter? 3) what is the actual weight (not advertised) and the actual weight of the steel spring it replaced?, oh and I suppose d) what bike/shock was it for.

    And even if you haven't bought ti springs, what are you currently using?

    Initially, I will probably offer one spring until finances allow subsequent production runs.

    Thanks in advance for any and all input. I really think this has a great value in the market, given the cost of ti springs.

    Brian

    www.therapycomponents.com, [email protected]
    Last edited by shock; 12-13-2004 at 10:34 PM.

  2. #2
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    wow, its been awhile since you announced this project initially....i still remember that good 'ol flame war....

    sorry, no Ti springs for this cheap bastard.

    PS...this Sticky will cost you a t-shirt....
    Quote Originally Posted by Gunslingger
    no doubt you must have majored in english or something rad!!!

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by zedro
    wow, its been awhile since you announced this project initially....i still remember that good 'ol flame war....

    sorry, no Ti springs for this cheap bastard.

    PS...this Sticky will cost you a t-shirt....
    Yeah, well, as usual, I have way more products/inventions/plans than I can possibly afford/design/spend time on like my internally geared hub/lighter than ti springs/rear shocks/forks/cranks/new bike.

    But, this is actually "in the works", and I think it's a good idea, given the cost of ti springs, so I'm gonna go for it.

    T shirts are easy, tell me where, but why won't my edited thread title update (beside the obvious, I have to be smarte than the computer..)

  4. #4
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    And me start a flame war? be controversial? I resemble that remark....

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by shock

    T shirts are easy, tell me where, but why won't my edited thread title update (beside the obvious, I have to be smarte than the computer..)
    only i have the power to change the thread title, all you can change is the post title
    Quote Originally Posted by Gunslingger
    no doubt you must have majored in english or something rad!!!

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by zedro
    only i have the power to change the thread title, all you can change is the post title
    thanks, I think that might generate more controversy, uh I mean interest...

  7. #7
    [email protected] NYC Freerider
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    what kind of material are you using to make the springs lighter and cheaper the titanium?- that is, if its not all top secret and stuff.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Master_Jako
    what kind of material are you using to make the springs lighter and cheaper the titanium?- that is, if its not all top secret and stuff.
    there are steels that rival Ti's strength to weight. Also you can use cored rods, if you can find them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gunslingger
    no doubt you must have majored in english or something rad!!!

  9. #9
    BJ-
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    nope no Ti springs here...

    how significant is the weight loss...becuase unless it was like super high then i guess i wouldnt bother...plus the fact there really expensive also doesnt make me too keen to suddenly jump on the Ti spring bandwagon...

    nice idea though...hope it works out for you...
    Quote Originally Posted by Bob
    everybody was dressed nice...I had shorts, Rogue T-shirt and sandles

  10. #10
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    I've not purchased a Ti spring...yet. As I get more into DH racing, I find myself looking for lighter components. I will be purchasing a Ti spring for my M3 that's on order. It will go on the Manitou Swinger 6-way, I believe 400 x 2.75.

  11. #11
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    hmm, unless he knows how to make CF springs for cheap....
    Quote Originally Posted by Gunslingger
    no doubt you must have majored in english or something rad!!!

  12. #12
    BJ-
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    Quote Originally Posted by zedro
    hmm, unless he knows how to make CF springs for cheap....
    could that be done...or would it have to be used with another material...
    Quote Originally Posted by Bob
    everybody was dressed nice...I had shorts, Rogue T-shirt and sandles

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by BJ-
    could that be done...or would it have to be used with another material...
    it has been done already. Couldn't find a good picture like i saw in class tho. Heres the link to the patent: https://www.freepatentsonline.com/4380483.html

    Quote Originally Posted by Gunslingger
    no doubt you must have majored in english or something rad!!!

  14. #14
    l337 |31k3r
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    I use lead for my springs.....Shure you have to change them after every jump, but you cannot rival the plushness.
    People call me a dick, but I just think im clever.

    Honary member of the
    591 club & 773 club.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zedro
    what he meant was 'greaser' types, most likely performing choreographed musical outakes which somehow degrade dirt jumps...

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by zedro
    sorry, no Ti springs for this cheap bastard.

    PS...this Sticky will cost you a t-shirt....
    Cheap bastard? Try "profiteering bastard."

    When you send him his shirt, you should "accidentally" send a ladies small.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDigger
    Cheap bastard? Try "profiteering bastard."

    When you send him his shirt, you should "accidentally" send a ladies small.
    hey, how do you think i scored this wicked-cool Go-Ride T-shirt?
    Quote Originally Posted by Gunslingger
    no doubt you must have majored in english or something rad!!!

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by zedro
    hey, how do you think i scored this wicked-cool Go-Ride T-shirt?
    And here we all thought you moderated out of purely altruistic motivations...

    BTW, Shock, to respond to your survey question, I am uninterested in Ti springs as I do not feel that the weight savings is worth the cost, the price/performance ratio is way out of line.

    That said, an equivalent weight or even lighter spring at 1/2 the price would probably be a winner, especially given that the 550lb (steel) spring I bought for my Demo9 (w/ swinger) was surprisingly heavy ( as I recall it weighed like 3 lbs).

    Good luck in your R&D.

  18. #18
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    1)I have A ti spring
    2)DK the rate...3.0 550 lb spring DK the diameter
    3) very noticible difference maybe a pound or two just don't know
    4) Azonic recoil with a romic shock

    sorry couldn't help more than that.

  19. #19
    X19
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    lol seriously though GRP and FRP springs are a bad idea imho as a plastics engineering student I can tell you there is a fatige life for cf and when it exceeds it say when your landing a big drop you don't want it to fail. safty wise I don't think it is a good idea kinda like spring aluminum it will work a couple of times but are you willing to except failure? steel and Ti are the only real options we have aside from air/gas shock springs. if you keep the loads on spring steel low enough the spring will never fail same with ti. that said I am willing to test CF springs on an xc bike as long I'm not fearing impending doom as a result of part failure. a prepreg mainframe is in my oppinion a better way to reduce wieght. I might do this with the linkage of a frame I really like and just machine the bb, piviots and shock pickups out of ti and throw in a ti headtube for strenght. (ti expands at the closest ratio to CF) this could drop pounds off a DH bike and not be life threataning.

  20. #20
    IJR
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    I've got a TI spring for my Uzzi SLX from progressive. Will get all the particulars after I get home this afternoon. Got the sprig over a year ago, if I remember correctly the weight difference was about .6 lbs.

    After Christmas I'll probably get one for my VPFree. I think that's what you should offer first.

  21. #21
    There's no app for this.
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    Fwiw...

    while I can't speak for Norshore riders, in the 10 years here, all on FS bikes, I've never entertained a lighter or different spring if what I have works for me. In our riding group of loosely 30+, I can't recall any of them getting a lighter spring; one or two have changed the spring to handle different loads, but not to save weight/cost. It's been a performance change. Since the advent of SPV, it's been sort of a non-issue?

    Probably not great for your new product, but, I wouldn't be surprised that yours might take off as some of us do try to shave a bit of weight off the 40+ pound bikes we gotta pedal uphill.

    good luck with your new venture, Jim

  22. #22
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    BJ-
    The difference in density of steel to titanuim is ~45%, i.e., you will reduce the weight of your shock by 45% if you switch to titanuim (assuming that the spring is the same size/shape).

    Shock-
    I have a good friend who rides a Bullit with a ti-spring 5th Element shock. I've ridden his bike with and without the ti spring and the difference is noticeable; the ti spring feels more plush for sure. Not sure as to the specs (stroke, rate, etc.) but I'm sure you could find those on Santa Cruz's website. If given the appropriate funds, I would purchase a ti spring, but because they're so friggin expensive, I've chosen to put my money on other components on my bike. If you could come up with a spring that is on par with ti, but the price would be significantly reduced, I think you'd have a winner. Good luck!
    -Primus

  23. #23
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    Spring characteristics consideration ranked by importance:

    1. strength/reliability
    2. feel/response/plushness
    3. dampening
    4. weight

    So A lighter spring ia all good and dandy but if it doesn't match up against other springs for all of the top three then I'll deal with the extra weight/

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobsterCraw
    Spring characteristics consideration ranked by importance:

    1. strength/reliability
    2. feel/response/plushness
    3. dampening
    4. weight

    So A lighter spring ia all good and dandy but if it doesn't match up against other springs for all of the top three then I'll deal with the extra weight/
    Ok, little lesson here, it's damping, not dampening. Dampening would be getting it wet. Not trying to be a smart-ass, it's just a pet peeve of mine.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by X19
    ....as a plastics engineering student I can tell you there is a fatige life for cf and when it exceeds it say when your landing a big drop you don't want it to fail.
    the fatigue life of CF can exceed that of steel, and yes steel springs do fail. Lukily i was also an engineering student with a very renowned CF expert .

    The problem is, which is always the problem with CF, is the manufacturing aspect. Theoretically the stuff blows the doors off of almost everything, but the manufacturing aspect doesnt necessarily provide that quality.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gunslingger
    no doubt you must have majored in english or something rad!!!

  26. #26
    Uhhhhh...
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    Shock,

    I'll buy one of your rear springs if you make one yo fit a new V-10, 2.75" at about 450. I'd even pre-pay before i saw the product.

    -TS
    Fayetteville, AR and N.W.A RePrEsEnT

  27. #27
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    Maybe he meant the wetting of the spring. I know I hate it when that happens.















    God I'm bored...stupid winter

  28. #28
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    I'd buy one, maybe two.

    Currently using a Fox steel 3 x 400, but I'm fat enough for a 450, I'm just in denial.

    What would be exceptionally sweet would be a pair of super light Shiver Ti springs

    Hey, it would be cool if you could make them look this too....
    Attached Images Attached Images

  29. #29
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    I have a SC Bullit w/ a Romic 550x3.0
    The coil seems to weigh about 18lbs. I know because I just took it off to get it powdercoated. I would consider purchasing a lighter spring, but not at the ridiculous price of the ti ones.
    Heck, I even considered Brake Therapy for my Bullit... until I saw the price.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus
    Ok, little lesson here, it's damping, not dampening. Dampening would be getting it wet. Not trying to be a smart-ass, it's just a pet peeve of mine.
    Do yourself a favor and http://webster.com/cgi-bin/dictionar...pening&x=0&y=0


    Smarta$$

  31. #31
    Uhhhhh...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slack
    Actually, your wrong. The other guy was right.

    -TS
    Fayetteville, AR and N.W.A RePrEsEnT

  32. #32
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    Weight-vs-Performance-vs-Cost-vs-Durability

    So tell me on a 40-45lb DH ride where can you save 1/2 a pound for $220 and not decrease durability or life span?Start with you current ride and try and do it.

  33. #33
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    My need for new trickery is endless, another SC 04 Bullit with a Fox DHX stock spring currently but waiting for a new TI spring unless you pull through! Sign me up!

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheSherpa
    Actually, your wrong. The other guy was right.

    -TS
    Actually, you're wrong

  35. #35
    Uhhhhh...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slack
    Actually, you're wrong
    No, it's damping, not dampening.

    -TS
    Fayetteville, AR and N.W.A RePrEsEnT

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheSherpa
    No, it's damping, not dampening.

    -TS
    Ok, let's put this one to rest once and for all.

    One's knowledge of damping, or lack thereof, may often be unknowingly judged by others solely on the basis of what word is used to refer to it - damping or dampening:

    dampen
    1. To make damp or moist.
    2. To check or diminish the activity or vigor of: deaden (also damp).

    Although in everyday conversation both words are used interchangeably, it is commonly understood that when one needs to dampen a structure, he or she should reach for the nearest garden hose. But if one is referring to the converstion of mechanical energy to thermal energy for the purpose of reducing structural vibration, damping is what you need. The mere fact that there is confusion over such a trivial grammatical point in a mtb. forum is understandable; however, when this issue arises among technical professionals (engineers, physicists, etc.), it simply suggests to others a basic lack of understanding on the subject of damping.

    So, TheSherpa, you're right, and Slack, well, you're not. No hard feelings, right?

  37. #37
    No, that's not phonetic
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    Fox DHX diameter (1.37" ID), 2.35" compressible length, 550 or 600#.

    Never could bring myself to buy Ti.

    Thanks.
    My video techniques can be found in this thread.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus
    Ok, let's put this one to rest once and for all.

    One's knowledge of damping, or lack thereof, may often be unknowingly judged by others solely on the basis of what word is used to refer to it - damping or dampening:

    dampen
    1. To make damp or moist.
    2. To check or diminish the activity or vigor of: deaden (also damp).

    Although in everyday conversation both words are used interchangeably, it is commonly understood that when one needs to dampen a structure, he or she should reach for the nearest garden hose. But if one is referring to the converstion of mechanical energy to thermal energy for the purpose of reducing structural vibration, damping is what you need. The mere fact that there is confusion over such a trivial grammatical point in a mtb. forum is understandable; however, when this issue arises among technical professionals (engineers, physicists, etc.), it simply suggests to others a basic lack of understanding on the subject of damping.

    So, TheSherpa, you're right, and Slack, well, you're not. No hard feelings, right?
    Are you two e-engineer professinals done slapping each other on the back

    http://www.zeiss.de/4125682000247242...256DB00067DF64

    http://www.djc.com/news/ae/11151055.html

    http://www.shimz.co.jp/english/suppo...9.html#seishin

    http://www.ame.arizona.edu/courses/a....html#raytheon

    But then again, I'm just an uneducated doof. No hard feelings bro

  39. #39
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    If you produced a 9.0 x 3.0 @ 400lbs I'd purchase one depending on the price.

    I really want to get a Ti spring for my Demo, but I can't afford one right now. I can't justify $200 + just to shave .5lbs off my bike.

    You in Oklahoma City? If yes, come ride with us.

  40. #40
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    Hi Brian!

    I have an Avalanche Ti ( off that V10 you used for the Brake Therapy ). I can probably get a steel Avalanche spring for bullits off my friends ride too.

    I also have a 600lb fox spring, and a steel 5th element spring( not sure of weight ) - both for bullits, and I think I have another Ti spring for the 5th element/V10.

    I'd probably be most interested in the 5th element Ti-spring version.

    Let me know if these would be helpful at all, give me a shout if you want I'll box'em up and send'em out.

    Terry
    If I get lost, don't go too fast!

  41. #41
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    Caution;  Merge;  Workers Ahead! I would buy a set of those ..............

    A light weight set of springs for a Shiver?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

    I'll pay for them right now!

    I'll fund the project.

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tree
    A light weight set of springs for a Shiver?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

    I'll pay for them right now!

    I'll fund the project.
    I second that. If a shiver could weigh anywhere from 7-8 1/2 lbs.

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by shock
    So I have several questions. 1) who has purchased ti springs? b) what rate, length, stroke and diameter? 3) what is the actual weight (not advertised) and the actual weight of the steel spring it replaced?, oh and I suppose d) what bike/shock was it for.

    And even if you haven't bought ti springs, what are you currently using?
    1. no
    2. 5th E Coil. 7 7/8 x 2.0
    3. Not sure
    d. 2003 Heckler (with 5" not 5.6")
    I'm still on ole' steel

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