How important is UST for DH??- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    How important is UST for DH??

    I'm thinking of picking up a Morewood Mukulu as my first DH ride, and it comes with crappy DareDevil hubs. I convinced the seller to keep the wheels and I'm looking at a set of CK on Syncros DPS32 or a set of Easton Havoc DH wheelset.

    I believe the Eastons are UST, but really how important is UST for DH application?

    Thanks,

    Ming

  2. #2
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    Well not going to speak for everyone obviously but I don't think it matters at all. I've never even bothered getting a tubeless wheelset, bunch of hassle I don't want to deal with.... I'm sure the people who run it think it's the **** cuz I'm sure it makes a minor difference but honestly an xc-tube in a dual ply is just fine....
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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iggz View Post
    Well not going to speak for everyone obviously but I don't think it matters at all. I've never even bothered getting a tubeless wheelset, bunch of hassle I don't want to deal with.... I'm sure the people who run it think it's the **** cuz I'm sure it makes a minor difference but honestly an xc-tube in a dual ply is just fine....
    Sweet. So I won't be too concerned about tubeless then.

    I'm guessing the Chris King setup is still better than the Easton set? They are pretty close in price.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by macming View Post
    Sweet. So I won't be too concerned about tubeless then.

    I'm guessing the Chris King setup is still better than the Easton set? They are pretty close in price.
    Yeah I would go KING and down road if you wanted to you can also go Stans og Ghetto Tubeless.

  5. #5
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    weight savings are pretty minor, UST tires suck for DH, and you should really be running a 2ply tire. At that point, pinch flats and punctures are pretty infrequent.

  6. #6
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    still run'n tubes here. can't deal with the goop yet.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by ianjenn View Post
    Yeah I would go KING and down road if you wanted to you can also go Stans og Ghetto Tubeless.
    running tubeless on a standard wheel set and on a UST set with no problems. I went tubeless about 3 years ago and will never go back to tubes.

  8. #8
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    Running UST as well on all my bikes. Haven't bought a tube in years, the only tubes I have now are the free ones I end up getting from Sea Otter.

    Granted, the biggest tires I'm running are Nevegal 2.35s.
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  9. #9
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    I wish less people would run tubeless and "not buy a tube in years"...I'm tired of handing out my spare tubes to get them home after they mess up through the rock garden *again* (24 psi like all the other cool kids...OK fine but BRING YOUR OWN DAMN SPARES...)...

  10. #10
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    I always carry at least one of those free tubes, just in case. :P But most of the time the 'in case' has been giving it to someone on the side of the trail as they messed up through the rock garden *again* and snakebite flatted.
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  11. #11
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    I run proper UST setup on all my bikes. I guess if I wanted it back enough, I could relace the 823s onto the new CK set instead

    Or, I can toss a set of Bontrager Rythm strips into the DPS32 and run proper UST tires. Decisions, decisions

  12. #12
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    I've been running stan's rimstrips in any rim with any tire I want and I haven't had a flat in years. I don't see the need for full on UST rims and tires, but it does make the initial air-up on the rim super easy.

  13. #13
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    I run ghetto tubeless on my bikes, and I've definitely been sold on the idea. I have limited experience with true UST setups, but I have had considerably less burping/pressure loss with ghetto tubeless on a set of non UST rims with a good 'hook' shaped bead. Oh, I'm running 2.5 Minion DHFs, btw. I pound rocks all day and I would flat out at least once a week with tubes. It's been a year and a half now, and not a single flat for any reason with ghetto tubeless. I'm sure UST works great, but I really disliked the way the tire feels when cornering. Ghetto just felt better to me. YMMV

    +1 for ghetto tubeless.
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  14. #14
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    I am anti ghetto tubeless and pro UST or tubeless ready.


    Tubes suck, and with some Stan's goo flats from thorns and sharp **** are a thing of the past. Plus, you can run surprisingly low pressures and they get great traction. You won't find a tube on any of my bikes but my dirt jumper and my roadie and only then because I'm cheap and ride them too infrequently.
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  15. #15
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    Another thing to think about is I just put an arrow racing tubeless dh tire on, and despite using a conventional rim with a stan's rimstrip, it instantly aired up with a floor pump. I imagine the tubeless bead design has a lot to do with it, but I've never had a downhill casing seal up so easy.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iggz View Post
    Well not going to speak for everyone obviously but I don't think it matters at all. I've never even bothered getting a tubeless wheelset, bunch of hassle I don't want to deal with.... I'm sure the people who run it think it's the **** cuz I'm sure it makes a minor difference but honestly an xc-tube in a dual ply is just fine....


    You my friend got it all wrong...Its the exact opposite actually , dealing with tubes and punctures leaving out in the cold is what I would call a bunch hassle...You either need to carry a pack ( GAY ) or have several stashes of tubes and pumps on the hill.Go tubeless, and you'll never have to think about having a flat again (unless if you slice the tire of course, which usually happens to me once or twice a year )

    Putting a fresh tire on a tubeless rim with a few scoops of sealant is also a bit easier than having to deal with a tube as you can use a big ass tire lever to pop the tire on and dont need to worry about pinching the tube or cursing like a mofo trying to get that tire on with your bare hands

    To the OP : Having a tubeless setup will allow you to go either way and you have nothing to worry about.

  17. #17
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    Incidentally you're not supposed to use tire levers with UST. They're 'supposed' to mount by hand, thus the deep center channel on UST-specific rims. Using a tire can stretch the bead of a UST tire enough so that it doesn't seal correctly.

    This of course, I've completely ignored time and again and never had a problem.
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  18. #18
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    Ha the comment about tubeless being a hassel is so far from the truth its hilarious.
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  19. #19
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    I switched to proper UST maybe 3 years ago. 823's and minions has been my set up. I don't even use sealant and haven't got a flat at all in 3 years. I may be lucky and only weigh about 160. I ride diablo and a few other resorts several times every year. Def sold on tubless, never going back

  20. #20
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    If we didn't have so many cacti and thorns I could also but stans is a must here in AZ
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  21. #21
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    Rockin tu eless ghetto and non ghetto for 5 years.
    Id have killed a $h!t ton of tu es on the rocks socal has plenty of jagged stuff and at 235 lbs i smash rims on a regular basis. However i do bring a tube incase i destroy the sidewall of a tire and the last 2 tubes i had were in my bag for somw time.

    Now i have zero my tubed friend flatted friday and my other tubed friend flatted sunday i however suffered.2 massive dents up front and the rear got to a replacing point so tubeless NO FLATS.
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  22. #22
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    What's so "GAY" about wearing a pack?

  23. #23
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    I have had mixed results and so have my friends. I will no longer run tubeless on a rear tire for my DH bike.

    I have burped tires in berms and off of jumps and twice it caused me to crash. Never had it happen with tubes.

    So as my 823's get destroyed I am changing to 729's and saying goodbye to tubeless.

    When it works it is ok but the cons outweigh the pros for me.

    Try it and see how it works, obviously some people are digging it.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by vaelin View Post
    Incidentally you're not supposed to use tire levers with UST. They're 'supposed' to mount by hand, thus the deep center channel on UST-specific rims. Using a tire can stretch the bead of a UST tire enough so that it doesn't seal correctly.

    This of course, I've completely ignored time and again and never had a problem.
    You're probably not supposed to, but I always have. Hasn't been a problem yet.
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  25. #25
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    I burp singleplys and roll them off once in a while dh not so much and since going ghetto and running stans on outside between tire and tube to glue it down had a TON of sucess with low pressure. Like 18 in the front the other day. Lol a bit too low
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  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by macming View Post
    I'

    I believe the Eastons are UST, but really how important is UST for DH application?

    Thanks,

    Ming
    really it isn't important at all....people been running tubes for years before tubeless came out.

    now with that being said a lot of people ride tubeless for many reasons

    lighter (less rolling weight) (full UST setup)
    less chance of flats
    if you get a flat a burst of air seals tires if you have fresh stans
    better traction at higher pressures [meaning better rolling (faster)]
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  27. #27
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    I just switched to UST wheels, running non-ust tires and stans no issue. (1.5 ply spec. tires)

    Setup was easy enough , I would not go back to tubes on a FR/DH bike at this point. Last ride I wen't on I hit a root and smacked both front and rear wheels which would have without question pinched both tubes. Luls were had.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuumbaq View Post
    You my friend got it all wrong...Its the exact opposite actually , dealing with tubes and punctures leaving out in the cold is what I would call a bunch hassle...You either need to carry a pack ( GAY ) or have several stashes of tubes and pumps on the hill.Go tubeless, and you'll never have to think about having a flat again (unless if you slice the tire of course, which usually happens to me once or twice a year )

    Putting a fresh tire on a tubeless rim with a few scoops of sealant is also a bit easier than having to deal with a tube as you can use a big ass tire lever to pop the tire on and dont need to worry about pinching the tube or cursing like a mofo trying to get that tire on with your bare hands

    To the OP : Having a tubeless setup will allow you to go either way and you have nothing to worry about.
    I think Iggy rides way smoother than a lot of us, I'm also way fatter than him so I definitely need to rock tubeless on gnarly trails.

    A hint though- maxxis ust tires tear super easy, so I usually just rock regular maxxis dh tires and sealant. For me at least, it stopped me from flatting every time when I went to northstar. I have some lighter friends that have no problems with regular dh tires and xc tubes.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmallory View Post
    What's so "GAY" about wearing a pack?
    I use UST rims and UST tires and I ride with a back pack...I carry super glue, A blow up sex doll, allen wrenches, water, and CO2 pump
    Last edited by SHIVER ME TIMBERS; 07-15-2011 at 08:46 PM.
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  30. #30
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    Well I just started a new thread wanting to know what is too low for PSI running tubeless as a new Tubeless user myself. I have never had flat issues running tubes w/ Schwalbe and Maxxis FR/DH tires. But I wanted to go to a more AM tire and went for it with some Panaracer CG tires with tubeless and well on my second ride my CG tire is ready for the trash with a big a$$ hole right in the middle of the tire. So I think the question poses...tubeless only works well with the right tire. But Hey I do live in AZ and was drifting the baby head loose rock line...Dunno... I don't think Cedric would approve of what happened to his tire a few hours ago. haha

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by gab26 View Post
    I have had mixed results and so have my friends. I will no longer run tubeless on a rear tire for my DH bike.

    I have burped tires in berms and off of jumps and twice it caused me to crash. Never had it happen with tubes.

    So as my 823's get destroyed I am changing to 729's and saying goodbye to tubeless.

    When it works it is ok but the cons outweigh the pros for me.

    Try it and see how it works, obviously some people are digging it.
    Ghetto is the way to go. I FAR prefer my cheap Singletracks run ghetto over my 823's for burping issues. So... don't give up, just go ghetto with those 729's!!!

    Have FUN!

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  32. #32
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    I think Shiver Me Timbers is one of the only people on the entire website that understands running tubeless.
    You run a higher pressure, get less rolling resistance AND better tire/trail compliance than with tubes.
    Folks that throw a tubeless setup on, lower the pressure from what they ran with tube, and then complain that tubeless tire roll off the rim... duh!

    I run tubeless rims, 2ply DH Maxxis tires (1 scoop of Stans per tire) and have never flat'd in AZ running thorn and sharp rock ladden trails. Before I went tubless, I flatted nearly every ride, sometimes several times a shuttle fest, and that was running 2-ply DH tubes inside 2-ply DH Maxxis tires at 35-40psi to avoid pinchflats.

    Is tubeless necessary for DH?
    Of course not.
    Will you benifit?
    Likely, if you ignor internet myths regarding tire pressure and listen to what Shiver's preaches (and any one lese that understands the system).

    Good luck.
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  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by clockwork View Post
    If we didn't have so many cacti and thorns I could also but stans is a must here in AZ
    This...In az your taking a bigggggg risk going down one of our downhill trails without extra tubes or a tubeless set up. Eventually you get sick of changing tubes one or multiple times a run on a 15 minute trail; and go tubeless, which honestly feels great.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike H. View Post
    I think Shiver Me Timbers is one of the only people on the entire website that understands running tubeless.
    You run a higher pressure, get less rolling resistance AND better tire/trail compliance than with tubes.
    Folks that throw a tubeless setup on, lower the pressure from what they ran with tube, and then complain that tubeless tire roll off the rim... duh!

    I run tubeless rims, 2ply DH Maxxis tires (1 scoop of Stans per tire) and have never flat'd in AZ running thorn and sharp rock ladden trails. Before I went tubless, I flatted nearly every ride, sometimes several times a shuttle fest, and that was running 2-ply DH tubes inside 2-ply DH Maxxis tires at 35-40psi to avoid pinchflats.

    Is tubeless necessary for DH?
    Of course not.
    Will you benifit?
    Likely, if you ignor internet myths regarding tire pressure and listen to what Shiver's preaches (and any one lese that understands the system).

    Good luck.


    I don' think all that SMT says is quite true. I have been doing my tubeless research this week and have done some checking with Stans. They recommend me to run mid to high 20's front and rear for optimal performance, and should not dent my rim. I think they probably have a little more heads up on proper tubeless PSI then most people on this forum. I've gone to the LBS that are quite knowledgeable on tubeless, a tire with a tube or tubeless that has high PSI will not conform to the terrain as one with less PSI. The tire becomes 'bouncy' Hence why off road 4 wheelers, rock, dirt, sand, (especially rock crawlers) run LOW PSI in there tires. And why when hitting the paved road, put the PSI back in. This why Pro DH'ers do not run tubeless. They can't run tubeless at the same low PSI as with tubes, and running the tubeless at the PSI they would have to in order to keep the tire on their rim, is pointless as they loose traction, for the tire becomes too 'bouncy'. Yes your rolling resistance is always lower with tubeless, but a higher PSI tubeless tire doesn't mean better traction. This is what I have found in my research this week from different sources in the bike industry.

    If I run my schwalbes at the same PSI as I did with tubes, I find I still bounce around on the rocks, especially hitting rock gardens at higher speeds. But I still roll over the rocks a lot smoother then I did with tubes. The only gain then is the less weight from not having tubes. Drop my PSI to what Stan's recommended for me 25 front/28 rear and then hitting the same trail, I still roll over the rocks just as smooth as with a higher PSI, but with the lower PSI, I found I have more traction, and most importantly more control, the whole reason I switched to tubeless. I am not talking buffed out trails with berms and such...just fast descending trails with lots of boulder gardens, baby heads, all sorts of nasty fun stuff.

    So here is my conclusion. It all depends on rim/tire/tubeless setup (your bead interface), type of terrain, rider weight, etc etc. There is no right or wrong PSI for everyone, just what works for you.


  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by dirtyknobbies View Post
    I don' think all that SMT says is quite true. I have been doing my tubeless research this week and have done some checking with Stans. They recommend me to run mid to high 20's front and rear for optimal performance, and should not dent my rim. I think they probably have a little more heads up on proper tubeless PSI then most people on this forum. I've gone to the LBS that are quite knowledgeable on tubeless, a tire with a tube or tubeless that has high PSI will not conform to the terrain as one with less PSI. The tire becomes 'bouncy' Hence why off road 4 wheelers, rock, dirt, sand, (especially rock crawlers) run LOW PSI in there tires. And why when hitting the paved road, put the PSI back in.

    Honestly....you got it wrong.....I have been running tubeless since 2003 (true tubeless with 823 rims). I was one of the first on this forum running tubeless...I ran the old Mavic 3.1 rim which is now the modern 823.... I ride rocky terrain that is dry and dusty (traction sucks)...we ride very steep trails at speeds...I...I have experimented with low and higher pressures in tubeless set ups....I have burped tires, lost air, rolled them in corners and have had perfect setups. I have rode in different states across the USA including California, Washington, Oregon, Nevada, Georgia, North Carolina, Utah, Colorado, and West Virginia. I think I have probably more DH experience running real world tubeless then most people on this forum.

    here where your comparisions are wrong.

    rock crawling is about slow rolling and traction....DH is about speed..so no comparison at all there...can't believe you even used that comparison because there is none...if you are going to barely roll...then roll low air pressure...but if you are riding fast and turning then you need more air pressure or the tire rolls on rim

    and Stans recommendations suck Most of their data is from XC bike people who go slower....if you are riding at speeds and run in the low 20's...then I am telling you the tire will fold over on turns...end of discussion ..no arguing THAT IS FACT

    Things I have learned over the years of running tubless

    1)use the yellow pedros tire levers...easier to get on and off without damaging beads because the levers are wider
    2)using soap on bead and rim gets tire to set easier
    3)use stans juice 2 scoops and replace every 3 months or before you go to a resort...because it drys out and then doesn't work
    4) CO2 pump and extra canisters in back pack
    5) add in back pack Superglue for trouble flats..let all air out before glueing or superglue will spray your face
    6) lastly in back pack.. sometimes a few cut pieces of innertube for troubled sidewall holes as patches
    7) rear tire pressure ( more % of body weight on rear tire) run higher pressures no less then 30-32psi depending on traction needed
    8) front tire pressure is a monkey fvck....slower steeper trails on dusty, dry slippery conditions get down to 25. the word is slow...but if you are hitting speeds keep it above the 30's
    9) on speed trails (think East coast- rains a lot)with a lot of traction I run the low 40's-.

    Bottom line you want the most air pressure for least rolling resistance (you go faster with less effort) but you have to decide how much traction (lowering the air pressure) you need to keep bike in your comfort zone
    Last edited by SHIVER ME TIMBERS; 07-17-2011 at 08:23 PM.
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  36. #36
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    Update:

    I put together a set of CK on Mavic 823 wheelset with some real UST tires. So everything is set!

    Thanks for everyone's comments.

  37. #37
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    All I gotta say is charging some rocky terrain at speed (maybe 20mph? through rock gardens), I burped the front tire twice in less than 20 mins. Just because you don't have to worry about pinch flats, does not mean you can run at lower pressures. When doing rocky terrain at speed, you need higher pressure to keep the tire seated when smacking rocks.

    Granted, I'm not the most graceful rider, as this is my first year riding, but this is something I learned the hard way. The second time, I even burped the tire right off the rim and had to re-seat the bead with my mini handpump (Lezyne Alloy). Luckily, this wasn't as hard to do as everyone had made me believe. I'm running high 20s right now (vs. low 20s). I weigh around 180lbs all geared up.

  38. #38
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    i run tubeless on teh front and switched back to tubes in the rear... i had to change the rear tire so it was cheaper to go tubes... the front still tubeless because i bought the bike like that... right now it has like 5 thorns in it so i can say less flats for sure.. .

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