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  1. #1
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    Hayes help plz....ughhhh!

    So I bled my son's HFX rear brake last night (which made me appreciate my Avids all the more) and I think I finally got all the air out of the system. However, now I'm trying to put the pieces back together so that I can test it and there is barely any room between the pads to fit the rotor in there.

    I've tried removing the pads and pressing the pistons back in....which usually has been successful...but this time whenever I press one of the pistons in, the other side pushes out, gobbling up whatever margin was gained pushing the other side in

    Did I put too much fluid in the system? Can I remove the bleed screw and let a bit of fluid from the master to provide some "slop" ??? I'm about ready to drop kick the MF'er right outta my garage and replace em with Avids which are FAR easier to work on and keep running hassle free....
    "Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring adventure or nothing." - Helen Keller

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    Quote Originally Posted by wXman
    So I bled my son's HFX rear brake last night (which made me appreciate my Avids all the more) and I think I finally got all the air out of the system. However, now I'm trying to put the pieces back together so that I can test it and there is barely any room between the pads to fit the rotor in there.

    I've tried removing the pads and pressing the pistons back in....which usually has been successful...but this time whenever I press one of the pistons in, the other side pushes out, gobbling up whatever margin was gained pushing the other side in

    Did I put too much fluid in the system? Can I remove the bleed screw and let a bit of fluid from the master to provide some "slop" ??? I'm about ready to drop kick the MF'er right outta my garage and replace em with Avids which are FAR easier to work on and keep running hassle free....

    do you have the plastic wedge tool that came with the brakes??? Just wedge the two pads at once..don't let the brake oil out
    the trick is ENJOYING YOUR LIFE EACH DAY, don't waste them away wishing for better days

  3. #3
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    nope...unfortunately :-\

    no msg
    "Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring adventure or nothing." - Helen Keller

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    Quote Originally Posted by wXman
    no msg
    did you use a 10mm wrench pry both at the same time
    the trick is ENJOYING YOUR LIFE EACH DAY, don't waste them away wishing for better days

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by wXman

    Did I put too much fluid in the system? Can I remove the bleed screw and let a bit of fluid from the master to provide some "slop" ???
    thats exactly it, too much fluid. Just remove the bleed screw, wrap a rag around the lever (or install the fluid pickup again) and now push the pads/cylinders back like you were before. No biggy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gunslingger
    no doubt you must have majored in english or something rad!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by zedro
    thats exactly it, too much fluid. Just remove the bleed screw, wrap a rag around the lever (or install the fluid pickup again) and now push the pads/cylinders back like you were before. No biggy.
    Man Zedro.I "inject" as much fluid in the system as I can and have no problems. I do it from the bottom to the top and after I take the drainage bottle it squirts a little but the brakes are solid right away. No pumping to make them work....first time achieves brake stop. The brakes last a long time too. My friends have not touched his for a year. Mines at 6 months, but I like keeping everything clean, so I will change mine next week
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by SHIVER ME TIMBERS
    Man Zedro.I "injec" as much fluid in the system I can and have no problems. ....
    yeah so do i. But if your pads werent spaced inwards before the bleed or moved in during for whatever reason, you can overfill the system and there simply will not be enough room to move them back. Thats why moving one pad out will push the other in; the fluid has no where to go.

    Its happened to me a couple of times.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gunslingger
    no doubt you must have majored in english or something rad!!!

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by zedro
    yeah so do i. But if your pads werent spaced inwards before the bleed or moved in during for whatever reason, you can overfill the system and there simply will not be enough room to move them back. Thats why moving one pad out will push the other in; the fluid has no where to go.

    Its happened to me a couple of times.
    hmmmm I never pushed in the pads before bleeding....maybe I should start doing that...I still get a slight rub after I bleed untill the pads wear down a little. Usually a run
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    Quote Originally Posted by SHIVER ME TIMBERS
    hmmmm I never pushed in the pads before bleeding....maybe I should start doing that...I still get a slight rub after I bleed untill the pads wear down a little. Usually a run
    if you do a 'full bleed', then change the pads for new fatter ones, you'll definitly see a problem. That rub is probably because the 'super-fill' process managed to move the pads in a bit, screwing up your previous setting.

    But its an easy fix, no re-bleed necessary.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gunslingger
    no doubt you must have majored in english or something rad!!!

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by zedro
    if you do a 'full bleed', then change the pads for new fatter ones, you'll definitly see a problem. That rub is probably because the 'super-fill' process managed to move the pads in a bit, screwing up your previous setting.

    But its an easy fix, no re-bleed necessary.
    I figured that was it but it works great so I don't worry about it.
    the trick is ENJOYING YOUR LIFE EACH DAY, don't waste them away wishing for better days

  11. #11
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    yah...did that

    I've had to fiddle with the damn pad clearance on these suckas since day one....constant dragging to which I get "...OMG! my brakes are rubbing again..." from my 13 yr old .....consequently...I've become very well aquainted with a 10mm wrench and pushing back pistons ....hehe
    "Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring adventure or nothing." - Helen Keller

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    Quote Originally Posted by wXman
    I've had to fiddle with the damn pad clearance on these suckas since day one....constant dragging to which I get "...OMG! my brakes are rubbing again..." from my 13 yr old .....consequently...I've become very well aquainted with a 10mm wrench and pushing back pistons ....hehe
    do you know the buisness card trick to space your pads out more? (its in the manual...yeah i know no one reads manuals...)

    first, take the bleed screw out and push the pads out like mentioned above; reinstall the bleed screw. With the pads as far out as possible, take a buisness card (or something of similar thickness) and fold it over the rotor so the pads are against it and not touching the rotor. Pump the brakes hard several times. Remove the card and your pads will be spaced further out and should have no problems.

    Also if your pads start to rub during hard use (ie. pumping out), this means you have a bad bleed (or bad fluid) and the air is expanding inside, pushing the pads out.

    When these brakes are setup right, they are 'set and forget'.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gunslingger
    no doubt you must have majored in english or something rad!!!

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by wXman
    Iconsequently...I've become very well aquainted with a 10mm wrench
    don't tell your wife that or you will never see your wrenches again
    the trick is ENJOYING YOUR LIFE EACH DAY, don't waste them away wishing for better days

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by zedro
    do you know the buisness card trick to space your pads out more? (its in the manual...yeah i know no one reads manuals...)

    first, take the bleed screw out and push the pads out like mentioned above; reinstall the bleed screw. With the pads as far out as possible, take a buisness card (or something of similar thickness) and fold it over the rotor so the pads are against it and not touching the rotor. Pump the brakes hard several times. Remove the card and your pads will be spaced further out and should have no problems.
    Zedro! I'm suprised that you of all people are propagating this old wive's tale.

    This doesn't even make any sense. The pads are self adjusting. As soon as you take out the business card and pump the brakes again, they'll adjust themselves to be closer to the rotor. What do you think happens when your pads wear down?

    This doesn't work in theory, and it doesn't work in practice... As soon as you pump the brakes, they're back where you started. It didn't make any sense to me when I read it, so I tried it, and sure enough... I didn't get the manual for my brakes but I have no idea why Hayes would put that in there, except to placate those people who will do it, and spin their wheel once without pumping their brakes.

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    oops...

    ROFL....she's right here SOH...too late
    "Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring adventure or nothing." - Helen Keller

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    Ridemonkey discussion on this "trick":
    http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/sho...65#post1316765

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    Quote Originally Posted by wXman
    ROFL....she's right here SOH...too late
    man I am sorry for you...try this "honey I love you so much...this wrench is nothing to me, please forgive me. Can I scratch your back...

    If that doesn't work.....say you WOULD LOVE to go shopping with her
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  18. #18
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    yessir....

    know that one...do it frequently...too frequently

    hmmm...your comments on the air...and the fact that my son's lever has always been "squishy" explains why I have to keep doing the card trick. These things were never bled right in the first place, obviously...which is why I'm trying to get up to speed on the proceedure myself. I have a buddy who is an excellent "wrench" and he tried to bleed the rear brake and while it firmed up the lever for awhile...it never got rid of the "squish" in there.

    I suspect that there is air leaking into the system somewhere. Both my boys have these brakes on their rigs, and outta the four brakes, this is the only one that gives me continual problems...both at the lever and at the pads. Where is the most common site for air to get into the system? Hose fittings? Bad seal on bleed screw? ???

    Because my time is limited, those of you with families know the drill, and I wrench on all three of our bikes...I'm about ready to dump the damn things and put Avids on there, they are just easier to keep running smooth. Yah do sacrifice a little modulation / lever feel...but jheeez...this has been a nightmare for the last year....
    "Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring adventure or nothing." - Helen Keller

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by binary visions
    Zedro! I'm suprised that you of all people are propagating this old wive's tale.

    This doesn't even make any sense. The pads are self adjusting. As soon as you take out the business card and pump the brakes again, they'll adjust themselves to be closer to the rotor. What do you think happens when your pads wear down?

    This doesn't work in theory, and it doesn't work in practice... As soon as you pump the brakes, they're back where you started. It didn't make any sense to me when I read it, so I tried it, and sure enough... I didn't get the manual for my brakes but I have no idea why Hayes would put that in there, except to placate those people who will do it, and spin their wheel once without pumping their brakes.
    i'm absolutly amazed, since of course you are 100% wrong and i've been doing this for 4 years, and on top of that this trick comes from Hayes themselves.

    Its true they are self-adjusting via the square-seals, but that actually has a range that can be tweeked, or 'fooled' rather. The success of the trick depens on the thickness of the paper used, and perhaps the bleed itself. I dont use buisness cards, but rather paper folded over itself (it ends up being thicker than a buisness card, should of mentioned it).

    I'm not gonna argue over this as much as i wouldnt argue about the color of the sky. I've done this in practice (in both normal and tweeked settings) and the difference is noticable both visually and through the amount of lever pull. The larger amount of spacing when done right can be maintained throughout the life of the pads, but on the rare occasion they did reset inwards (happened like twice in 4 years). Now surely you are not going to tell me i'm too stupid to tell the difference, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by Gunslingger
    no doubt you must have majored in english or something rad!!!

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    you probably pinched a line and need new brake lines


    What type of hayes are you using the mags or the nines???
    the trick is ENJOYING YOUR LIFE EACH DAY, don't waste them away wishing for better days

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by zedro
    i'm absolutly amazed, since of course you are 100% wrong and i've been doing this for 4 years, and on top of that this trick comes from Hayes themselves.

    Its true they are self-adjusting via the square-seals, but that actually has a range that can be tweeked, or 'fooled' rather. The success of the trick depens on the thickness of the paper used, and perhaps the bleed itself. I dont use buisness cards, but rather paper folded over itself (it ends up being thicker than a buisness card, should of mentioned it).

    I'm not gonna argue over this as much as i wouldnt argue about the color of the sky. I've done this in practice (in both normal and tweeked settings) and the difference is noticable both visually and through the amount of lever pull. The larger amount of spacing when done right can be maintained throughout the life of the pads, but on the rare occasion they did reset inwards (happened like twice in 4 years). Now surely you are not going to tell me i'm too stupid to tell the difference, right?
    we ride steep stuff so we like a little brake rub.....shiat I like a litlle rub now and again and again and again and again....etc
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    Quote Originally Posted by wXman
    I suspect that there is air leaking into the system somewhere. Both my boys have these brakes on their rigs, and outta the four brakes, this is the only one that gives me continual problems...both at the lever and at the pads. Where is the most common site for air to get into the system? Hose fittings? Bad seal on bleed screw? ???
    air doesnt usually leak in, oil leaks out. Its a bad bleed, or a stubborn bleed, and this happens frequently with the rear brakes due to the long hose length.

    I spent a few hours on my rear brake (more than once) trying to get all the air out. Even when it feels right, if I bleed again to visually check, theres still freakin air in there..it never seems to end. So i just get the feel right and try to forget about the whole thing. The front on the other hand is usually done perfect on the first try in 5 minutes. I dont know why some are more stubborn than others, sometimes an air pocket just doesnt want to let go.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gunslingger
    no doubt you must have majored in english or something rad!!!

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    seems to work for me....

    i actually carry a pair of playing cards in my camelback since I've become such an expert at this technique.... they seem to be the perfect thickness and are slick so one can slip them inbetween the rotor and pads easier if tolerances are tight
    "Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring adventure or nothing." - Helen Keller

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    just to add about the pad spacing trick. The spacing can stay the same as long as the pad wear is incremental, ie. in small increments they will reset to the same distance (assuming your piston/seals are in good shape and all that). However a drastic change in spacing may cause the reset to lose the extra space again.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gunslingger
    no doubt you must have majored in english or something rad!!!

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    whichever ones have the plastic fitting instead of threaded one at the lever bleed screw...that the mags?

    Zedro...ughhh...you're bummin' me out man. That is not encouraging about the rear brake being such a PITA to bleed right OI! If they were mine...I'd take your stance and just deal with a bit of "mush" at the lever. But my 13yr old??? I'd feel awful if he wrecked because of my failure to set his rig up properly....and brakes seem awfully important to me - especially the way he rides
    "Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring adventure or nothing." - Helen Keller

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    Quote Originally Posted by zedro
    i'm absolutly amazed, since of course you are 100% wrong and i've been doing this for 4 years, and on top of that this trick comes from Hayes themselves.
    <snip>
    Now surely you are not going to tell me i'm too stupid to tell the difference, right?
    I'm curious as to what, in your experience in seeing my many thousands of posts in a couple different message boards, would cause you to believe that I would refer to someone such as yourself as "stupid" - I'm usually pretty confident of another's stupidity before I fling a personal insult like that.

    Apparently I'm 100% wrong, and you're 100% wrong as well, as I've tried this with my brakes and my buddy's brakes, with paper, playing cards, business cards, and two business cards on top of each other. On top of discussions with people such as MikeD who agree with me.

    So, clearly, there's a variable at work here that we are not seeing: unless, of course, you think I'm too stupid to tell the difference either

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    Quote Originally Posted by wXman
    whichever ones have the plastic fitting instead of threaded one at the lever bleed screw...that the mags?

    Zedro...ughhh...you're bummin' me out man. That is not encouraging about the rear brake being such a PITA to bleed right OI! If they were mine...I'd take your stance and just deal with a bit of "mush" at the lever. But my 13yr old??? I'd feel awful if he wrecked because of my failure to set his rig up properly....and brakes seem awfully important to me - especially the way he rides
    the Mags have the screw, the 9s have the fitting which should be replaced with a screw (i'm thinking this plug could be a source of the problem too).

    And i didnt mean to suggest he should live with a mushy lever, cus i wouldnt and i dont have one myself. What i meant was that i could possibly bleed them forever and always seem to have air come out for whatever mysterious reason, but you can still get them to setup firm and very usable (this is my DH bike so i can't afford to have a mushy and underpowered brake).

    If you really cant get them to firm up after a complete fluid replacement, I'd suggest throwing out the line, cycling fluid through the lever and caliper (seperatly without the line, in both directions to clean them out), and install a new line. If this doesnt work, well it could be a problem with the master cylinder.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gunslingger
    no doubt you must have majored in english or something rad!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by binary visions
    I'm curious as to what, in your experience in seeing my many thousands of posts in a couple different message boards, would cause you to believe that I would refer to someone such as yourself as "stupid" - I'm usually pretty confident of another's stupidity before I fling a personal insult like that.

    Apparently I'm 100% wrong, and you're 100% wrong as well, as I've tried this with my brakes and my buddy's brakes, with paper, playing cards, business cards, and two business cards on top of each other. On top of discussions with people such as MikeD who agree with me.

    So, clearly, there's a variable at work here that we are not seeing: unless, of course, you think I'm too stupid to tell the difference either
    just thought about this in the garage, and i'm thinking maybe there was a change in the design perhaps, seals or otherwise. I'm using Purple Hayes (the old G1 calipers, all original parts) where this 'trick' was published. Now maybe Hayes knowing the normal setup generally caused the pads to be too close for some changed the seal design (which is responsible for pad spacing and retraction), which made the trick not work, or not as well. In my riding group, i think i'm the only one still on the old system and the only one that spaces the pads.

    Anyways it works for me so its not a myth as you put it. Plus i get upset when someone tries to infer i'm having a 'Dallas" moment...
    Quote Originally Posted by Gunslingger
    no doubt you must have majored in english or something rad!!!

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    one more thought...

    so I did everything we've talked about here.....got the wheel back on there between the pads, and tested the lever.....STILL MUSH.....

    One more idea just occured to me looking at the bike while I'm contemplating lauching it across the yard... That rear line has a TON of curves in it, which has gotta make it tough for tiny air bubbles adhearing to the wall to break free and float to the master while tapping the line. Anyone ever had success or an easier time with a rear bleed, removing the lever and hanging it off something in a straight vertical run from the caliper??? Seems like it might help, yes? no? This doesn't work...I'm punting and gonna take it to the LBS

    Thanks for all your help guys, appreciate it
    "Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring adventure or nothing." - Helen Keller

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    Quote Originally Posted by wXman
    That rear line has a TON of curves in it, which has gotta make it tough for tiny air bubbles adhearing to the wall to break free and float to the master while tapping the line. Anyone ever had success or an easier time with a rear bleed, removing the lever and hanging it off something in a straight vertical run from the caliper??? Seems like it might help, yes? no? This doesn't work...I'm punting and gonna take it to the LBS
    yup, and tap the caliper and lever body with a wrench too
    Quote Originally Posted by Gunslingger
    no doubt you must have majored in english or something rad!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by wXman
    so I did everything we've talked about here.....got the wheel back on there between the pads, and tested the lever.....STILL MUSH.....

    One more idea just occured to me looking at the bike while I'm contemplating lauching it across the yard... That rear line has a TON of curves in it, which has gotta make it tough for tiny air bubbles adhearing to the wall to break free and float to the master while tapping the line. Anyone ever had success or an easier time with a rear bleed, removing the lever and hanging it off something in a straight vertical run from the caliper??? Seems like it might help, yes? no? This doesn't work...I'm punting and gonna take it to the LBS

    Thanks for all your help guys, appreciate it
    I usually bleed from the bottom to top.....here is a little trick...go get a big sryinge...the bottles suck. The syringe you can do the whole system easier. I use to do it with the hayes bottles and ran into your problem many times. With me, the syringe only takes once.
    the trick is ENJOYING YOUR LIFE EACH DAY, don't waste them away wishing for better days

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    Quote Originally Posted by SHIVER ME TIMBERS
    I usually bleed from the bottom to top.....
    yeah missed that part...the master cylinder should always be the highest point in the system, including the lines...the lever should be pointed at an upward 45 degrees too.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gunslingger
    no doubt you must have majored in english or something rad!!!

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    well...turns out I ain't as lame as I had feard...

    Finally got frustrated with the whole mess...and needed to wrench on other stuff that HAD to get done b4 tomorrows ride...sooo took it to the LBS... Wrench at the shop bled and bled and bled and low and behold...there's a small pinhole in the rear line and it blew while he was testing it out.

    Thanks again for all your help guys. The next time I'll be able to do it with my eyes closed ;-)

    Oh and my boy thanks ya too...
    "Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring adventure or nothing." - Helen Keller

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    Quote Originally Posted by SHIVER ME TIMBERS
    you probably pinched a line and need new brake lines


    What type of hayes are you using the mags or the nines???

    hah!!! I said that a few post ago
    the trick is ENJOYING YOUR LIFE EACH DAY, don't waste them away wishing for better days

  35. #35
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    Zedro, been doing it too.

    Quote Originally Posted by zedro
    just thought about this in the garage, and i'm thinking maybe there was a change in the design perhaps, seals or otherwise. I'm using Purple Hayes (the old G1 calipers, all original parts) where this 'trick' was published. Now maybe Hayes knowing the normal setup generally caused the pads to be too close for some changed the seal design (which is responsible for pad spacing and retraction), which made the trick not work, or not as well. In my riding group, i think i'm the only one still on the old system and the only one that spaces the pads.

    Anyways it works for me so its not a myth as you put it. Plus i get upset when someone tries to infer i'm having a 'Dallas" moment...
    We've been doing this on problematic Hayes hydros for a long time. When I first posted this a year or two ago, I got all kind of negative comments about it. It's not rocket science, and it really does work. I guess you could be stupid about how you accomplished this "bleed off", but we've never had a problem with our personal bikes or any through the shop.

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by TNC
    We've been doing this on problematic Hayes hydros for a long time. When I first posted this a year or two ago, I got all kind of negative comments about it. It's not rocket science, and it really does work. I guess you could be stupid about how you accomplished this "bleed off", but we've never had a problem with our personal bikes or any through the shop.
    Fact is, there are some Hayes brakes that it does not work on. Period. I suppose I may have been hasty in my generalization that it was an "old wive's tale", but frankly, when something doesn't work for my brakes, doesn't work for my buddy's brakes, doesn't work for numerous people I talk to, plus defies the logic of a self-adjusting system... Well, I consider myself a smart guy, and mechanically inclined, and it sure as heck looked to me like it doesn't work at all.

    Perhaps there is something unique about the problamatic systems that don't adjust properly, that causes this trick to become effective?

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by binary visions
    Perhaps there is something unique about the problamatic systems that don't adjust properly, that causes this trick to become effective?
    my brakes werent problematic; without the 'trick' they work just fine and setup like anyone elses. I just prefer the extra lever throw that spacing provides.

    The competency could also be questionned.....
    Quote Originally Posted by Gunslingger
    no doubt you must have majored in english or something rad!!!

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by zedro
    The competency could also be questionned.....
    You know, it'd be a shame if something were to "happen" to your elites membership. I mean, it'd be real easy for those screenshots of you on Pinkbike to "accidentally" be posted at the next meeting.

    Not that I wish any ill on you, of course, but problems like this happen all the time... And it'd be a darn shame, is all I'm saying.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by binary visions
    You know, it'd be a shame if something were to "happen" to your elites membership. I mean, it'd be real easy for those screenshots of you on Pinkbike to "accidentally" be posted at the next meeting.
    oh yeah? well guess who's just been nominated to give the Hayes brake setup seminar? don't worry, i'll be there to jump right in if you have troubles....
    Quote Originally Posted by Gunslingger
    no doubt you must have majored in english or something rad!!!

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by zedro
    oh yeah? well guess who's just been nominated to give the Hayes brake setup seminar? don't worry, i'll be there to jump right in if you have troubles....
    I volunteer
    the trick is ENJOYING YOUR LIFE EACH DAY, don't waste them away wishing for better days

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