Floating brakes on Lawwill or Lawwill-esque designs?- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
    oly
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    Floating brakes on Lawwill or Lawwill-esque designs?

    Can someone explain how these work for this type of design specifically.

    On the yetis, schwins, and now Rotec, they arent attached to the frame like normal floaters. The rotec seems to have a slider arm attached to chainstay for the caliper to move, but the pictures of the yeti's i found seemed to just be a plate... like a rotatable link.

    Also, What about the ASTRIX bikes? They arent true Lawwills, but similar. Im in a debate with someone on the Huckster bike that doesnt have a floating arm. At slow speed braking the rear end tends to rise alot. On the trail with front braking added in the mix person riding the bike felt like the HT angle was really steep. He had to fight being thrown, or so he said..and the rider is a PRO Dh racer. Ive also heard the old lawwill designs without floaters would tend to buck in hard braking. Oddly the HAVOC does have a floater, yet its mounted to the front TRI. What am i missing in looking at the Astrix bikes in comparison to the Lawwill? I know this inst an easy answer as the searching ive done has only gone on to confuse me as it all pertains to Single pivots Vs. FSR.....

    Can anyone dumb it down a few notches?? Think homer simpson.....

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by oly
    Can anyone dumb it down a few notches?? Think homer simpson.....
    Hibbert: Homer, I'm afraid you'll have to undergo a coronary bypass operation.
    Homer: Say it in English, Doc.
    Hibbert: You're going to need open heart surgery.
    Homer: Spare me your medical mumbo jumbo.
    Hibbert: We're going to cut you open and tinker with your ticker.
    Homer: Could you dumb it down a shade?

    Sorry, can't help with your question, I just loved that episode. I once dreamed of buying a Huckster, the people I talked to said they hadn't noticed any brake jack, but that could be a perception thing as well. According to my extremely limited (read: non-existent) knowledge of suspension, I thought that they ~should~ have brake jack, but WTF do I know?

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    the stock floater on the Yeti is similar in principal to the one found on the old V10; the caliper floater plate is seperate from the dropout but governed by the suspension linkage. This will not totally isolate it but can still tune out some undesirable behavior.

    The Astrix guys will try to tell you otherwise, but the Huckster suffers from the same jack problems as Lawills do (for all intensive purposes, i would call their designs Lawills). Now why they chose not to use one here but only the Havoc is beyond me.

  4. #4
    oly
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    Thanks for the simpsons quote! Thats a great one!

  5. #5
    oly
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    Quote Originally Posted by zedro

    The Astrix guys will try to tell you otherwise, but the Huckster suffers from the same jack problems as Lawills do (for all intensive purposes, i would call their designs Lawills). Now why they chose not to use one here but only the Havoc is beyond me.
    Thats sorta my point to my friend. Although the upper and lower arms arent equal lenght like the true lawwill designs, it still is very similar and seems to suffer like ive heard the lawwill without floater does. Ive yet to ride it more than on flat ground, but my judgment is already clouded by extreme rise of the middle of the bike (BB, SADDLE) under rear only braking........ Maybe this weekend if it doesnt snow.

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    Quote Originally Posted by oly
    Thats sorta my point to my friend. Although the upper and lower arms arent equal lenght like the true lawwill designs, it still is very similar and seems to suffer like ive heard the lawwill without floater does.
    i dont think equal length arms are a requirement for the Lawill. Regardless the basic geometry operates on the same fundamentals.
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  7. #7
    oly
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    Quote Originally Posted by zedro
    i dont think equal length arms are a requirement for the Lawill. Regardless the basic geometry operates on the same fundamentals.
    I cant wait to ride the Rotec. Good thing im local to Sulley, and he sponsors our team through GRC.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by oly
    I cant wait to ride the Rotec. Good thing im local to Sulley, and he sponsors our team through GRC.....
    Lucky ba$tard

  9. #9
    oly
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    Zedro,

    If this RISE trait is felt at slower speed braking on flat ground, do you think it would go away once the bike is at speed on a trail?

    With the floater like on the Havoc will this trait be non existant? I too wonder why the Hickster doesnt have the floater (other than cost, and space limitations with 135mm) I'd assume though out of TW a machined plate of alum, 2 rod ends and some pipe would be hella cheap. I look to IH as an example of a stock bike from overseas with the floating caliper.

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    the jacking effect is a function of force (or deceleration), so it wont matter what speed you are going, only that of how hard you're braking. Using a (proper) floater will eliminate this characteristic.

    Astrix claimed the Huckster didnt *need* it for a bunch of BS reasons (i wont go further...)

  11. #11
    oly
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    Quote Originally Posted by zedro
    the jacking effect is a function of force (or deceleration), so it wont matter what speed you are going, only that of how hard you're braking. Using a (proper) floater will eliminate this characteristic.

    Astrix claimed the Huckster didnt *need* it for a bunch of BS reasons (i wont go further...)
    Zedro,

    If you dont wish to post more about it here you could PM me. I'd like to hear the reasons.

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    Quote Originally Posted by oly
    Zedro,

    If you dont wish to post more about it here you could PM me. I'd like to hear the reasons.
    they werent real reasons, they were BS. The bike would benefit from a floater as much as the Yeti would. Astrix tried to say the pivot points were "just right" which is nonsense.

  13. #13
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    Astrix

    Quote Originally Posted by oly
    Can someone explain how these work for this type of design specifically.

    On the yetis, schwins, and now Rotec, they arent attached to the frame like normal floaters. The rotec seems to have a slider arm attached to chainstay for the caliper to move, but the pictures of the yeti's i found seemed to just be a plate... like a rotatable link.

    Also, What about the ASTRIX bikes? They arent true Lawwills, but similar. Im in a debate with someone on the Huckster bike that doesnt have a floating arm. At slow speed braking the rear end tends to rise alot. On the trail with front braking added in the mix person riding the bike felt like the HT angle was really steep. He had to fight being thrown, or so he said..and the rider is a PRO Dh racer. Ive also heard the old lawwill designs without floaters would tend to buck in hard braking. Oddly the HAVOC does have a floater, yet its mounted to the front TRI. What am i missing in looking at the Astrix bikes in comparison to the Lawwill? I know this inst an easy answer as the searching ive done has only gone on to confuse me as it all pertains to Single pivots Vs. FSR.....

    Can anyone dumb it down a few notches?? Think homer simpson.....
    I about live on my Huckster on the weekends and I am extreemly happy with the suspension and design, I haven't experienced at all the above noted issues with the suspension, maybe it is a locking up the brake issue? I'll have to try it, but rarely ride that way. Of course the Havoc has the option of the floater and I have ridden it with the floater and it feels great. I don't recal any brake jack or lifting.

    A visual note for reference as to why the Astrix design is not like say the Tomac that used the lawwil design and no floater. It is critical for the lawwill design to have the upper control arm at a downward angle and due to the torque from braking and force in the drop link, this creates the extension of the suspension. The Astrix design has the control arm support in line with the braking forces so the there is a minimal lever arm able to extend or compress the suspension.

    Thanks,

    Doug aka-Shuntavi

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shuntavi
    It is critical for the lawwill design to have the upper control arm at a downward angle and due to the torque from braking and force in the drop link, this creates the extension of the suspension. The Astrix design has the control arm support in line with the braking forces so the there is a minimal lever arm able to extend or compress the suspension.
    while that angle between the linkages will determine the actual magnitude of the extension force, there still exists that component that wants to extend the suspension no matter what. By nature the design wants to jack, now weither that effect is noticible or detrimental to the rider is upto them. But there is no way around the fact that the linkage is being influenced to extend by the brake torque without the floater.

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    Well, I just have to throw in my 1.57 cents...

    Quote Originally Posted by oly
    Can someone explain how these work for this type of design specifically.

    On the yetis, schwins, and now Rotec, they arent attached to the frame like normal floaters. The rotec seems to have a slider arm attached to chainstay for the caliper to move, but the pictures of the yeti's i found seemed to just be a plate... like a rotatable link.

    Also, What about the ASTRIX bikes? They arent true Lawwills, but similar. Im in a debate with someone on the Huckster bike that doesnt have a floating arm. At slow speed braking the rear end tends to rise alot. On the trail with front braking added in the mix person riding the bike felt like the HT angle was really steep. He had to fight being thrown, or so he said..and the rider is a PRO Dh racer. Ive also heard the old lawwill designs without floaters would tend to buck in hard braking. Oddly the HAVOC does have a floater, yet its mounted to the front TRI. What am i missing in looking at the Astrix bikes in comparison to the Lawwill? I know this inst an easy answer as the searching ive done has only gone on to confuse me as it all pertains to Single pivots Vs. FSR.....

    Can anyone dumb it down a few notches?? Think homer simpson.....
    First of all, the "lawill" type design (including Astrix) is very prone to causing the rear suspension to rise under braking, even without using the front brake. If it occurs in the parking lot, you can be sure that it happens at higher speeds and/or steeper slopes. In '98 John Tomac said the reason he broke his wrist at Big Bear was dure to this tendency, so we immediatly slapped a floater on it, which JT, Cheri Elliot, Sari Jorgensoon said it improved the bike immensly, and actually gave them confiddence instead of scaring them. I remember well my first ride in the parking lot on a non floater Tomac. The seat had a spooky feeling when it lifted your ass under even gentle rear brake application.

    This floater was far from a perfect geometry, in fact it's very similar to what Yeti (not ours) and the Rotec pictured here (ours) are using. While the geometry is flawed, it's a VERY large improvement over the non floater configuration. It could be better (hopefully see attached pic) but it's questionable how much the improvement would be. I hope to do more testing to help determine this.

    A simple visual (I hope) is to imagine the rotation of the rear link with the dropout and caliper attached. Under braking, this link tries to rotate forward. When it does do, it will forcethe upper "swingarm" downward, thus extending the suspension.

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    ok, here's the pic..

    Quote Originally Posted by zedro
    the stock floater on the Yeti is similar in principal to the one found on the old V10; the caliper floater plate is seperate from the dropout but governed by the suspension linkage. This will not totally isolate it but can still tune out some undesirable behavior.

    The Astrix guys will try to tell you otherwise, but the Huckster suffers from the same jack problems as Lawills do (for all intensive purposes, i would call their designs Lawills). Now why they chose not to use one here but only the Havoc is beyond me.
    And BTW, the Rotec floater isn't attached to any sliding link, it is a solid linked attached to a fixed position on the floater, and a fixed position on the "chainstay".

    And while there is simililarity to the stock v-10 floater in the fact that they both attach to a suspension link, the dynamic similarity is quite different. In fact the stock v-10 floater was roundly critisized for being ineffective, with most pros removing theirs and santa cruz discontinuing it for '05. While our v-10 floater was a significant improvement. (there's a review posted somewhere here).
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  17. #17
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    Uh oh...

    Edited: Because I'm an @ss!

    Happy Holidays.
    Last edited by RED5; 12-07-2006 at 02:03 PM.

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    yeah realize all that...but we were supposed to be keeping things simple...

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    and here's a pic of our v-10 floater....

    Quote Originally Posted by oly
    Zedro,

    If this RISE trait is felt at slower speed braking on flat ground, do you think it would go away once the bike is at speed on a trail?

    With the floater like on the Havoc will this trait be non existant? I too wonder why the Hickster doesnt have the floater (other than cost, and space limitations with 135mm) I'd assume though out of TW a machined plate of alum, 2 rod ends and some pipe would be hella cheap. I look to IH as an example of a stock bike from overseas with the floating caliper.
    But it is probably a cost consideration. The 135 spacing is not really a problem, just a challenge. 99% of our floaters are for 135 mm hubs, simply beause 99% of bikes have 135 mm hubs.

    But certainly ANY bike will be better with a floater, yes even fsr bikes (doubters who've never tried one, feel free to object).

    I'm curious though, what IH bike are you talking about that comes with a stock floater? pics?
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  20. #20
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    Congrats..

    Quote Originally Posted by shock
    And BTW, the Rotec floater isn't attached to any sliding link, it is a solid linked attached to a fixed position on the floater, and a fixed position on the "chainstay".

    And while there is simililarity to the stock v-10 floater in the fact that they both attach to a suspension link, the dynamic similarity is quite different. In fact the stock v-10 floater was roundly critisized for being ineffective, with most pros removing theirs and santa cruz discontinuing it for '05. While our v-10 floater was a significant improvement. (there's a review posted somewhere here).
    on figuring out that pesky picture posting process.

  21. #21
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    Well, it really doesn't surprise me that you don't see it..

    Quote Originally Posted by red5
    Of course not till after you got your $900.00 + tax, right!?!?

    Nope don't see it.

    Wrong again. Hey maybe with all the $$$ your making selling floaters you can take a simple computer class. Or are you too busy making sales to break away.?

    Happy Holidays.

    Edit: Looks like you figured out the picture thing. Again you amaze me, will it ever end?
    But, all kidding aside, the $900 price is only for you, just for the pain in the ass that I'm imagining you would be as a customer. For more reasonable people, the standard price of US$295 applies. No tax unless you live in Indiana...

    Will the computer class include a reminder to hit the upload button before posting? Usually my computer time is spent designing or doing finite element analysis or something silly like that. I know, not anywhere near as important as mastering my mtbr posting technique....

  22. #22
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    Yeah, I know...

    Quote Originally Posted by zedro
    yeah realize all that...but we were supposed to be keeping things simple...
    I'm just trying to simplify the complication of the simplifying process....

  23. #23
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    Really..

    Quote Originally Posted by shock
    ....just for the pain in the ass that I'm imagining you would be as a customer.
    Edited; For still being an @ss!
    Last edited by RED5; 12-07-2006 at 02:04 PM.

  24. #24
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    Braking Basics.

    This is hopefully as simple as explanations of braking behaviour get.

    When you hit the brakes (either end), the bike tries to rock forwards on it's suspension. The front compresses and the rear extends.
    Depending on the rear suspension, the rear end can either help the bike rock forwards (we call this brake jack) or it can fight the bike rocking forwards (we call this squat).

    Generally jack is a very bad thing and too much squat is as well. Jacking makes the bike unstable and hard to ride, while too much squat stops the rear suspension from working well with the brakes on.

    The basic idea of floaters is to change the braking behavour to something better than it originally was. Most of them try to aim for neutral braking where the bike still rocks forwards but the rear brakes don't make it jack or stop the suspension from doing it's job.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
    www.dougal.co.nz

  25. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by red5
    Hey if you want to know what kind of customer I am call Steve Herbst at Kenda USA or talk to anyone at ROCKGARDN, I buy stuff from them regularlyand have built a strong personal relationship with both. One which is beneficial to both parties, equally.

    See, I have no problems when things live up to the hype. Unlike alot of pros or industry peeps, I prefer to use and pay for stuff that works best for me since I actually haveto pay for my stuff, not the other way around.
    hey, Rockgardn was getting so freakin hyped at the time that even i got blinded and bought their armor online (a rule i broke of my own) and sure enough got really dissapointed with the design (and the sizing given to me). I had to make a ton of mods to the strapping to make the damn thing safe, which ironically are the same mods they've made to the 2005 line (hmm, wonder if they were listening...and if that un-named email asking about what changes i would make was from them...). Their offer to replace the jacket (even tho i dont think i necessarily deserved one, since i was stupid to order online) never even materialized....i'm not one to have to chase these things down anyways.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by zedro
    hey, Rockgardn was getting so freakin hyped at the time that even i got blinded and bought their armor online (a rule i broke of my own) and sure enough got really dissapointed with the design (and the sizing given to me). I had to make a ton of mods to the strapping to make the damn thing safe, which ironically are the same mods they've made to the 2005 line (hmm, wonder if they were listening...and if that un-named email asking about what changes i would make was from them...). Their offer to replace the jacket (even tho i dont think i necessarily deserved one, since i was stupid to order online) never even materialized....i'm not one to have to chase these things down anyways.
    And what does this have to do with what kind of customer I am? Try staying on topic, will ya.

    Now if you have issues with RG why don't you try giving them a call, since I know you haven't. Bub, I've heard both sides of this story and all I will say is your leaving a bit of important info out, like the fact when you spoke to them you both agreed on the size they sent to you as being the best choice, so your as much to blame for the fit as anyone. Maybe next time try to leave your ego out of the measurements and just tell the truth, your a small skinny guy, since obviously your stature was not enough to fill out the size large jacket you got, simple as that. Sorry but thems the facts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by red5
    And what does this have to do with what kind of customer I am? Try staying on topic, will ya.

    Now if you have issues with RG why don't you try giving them a call, since I know you haven't. Bub, I've heard both sides of this story and all I will say is your leaving a bit of important info out, like the fact when you spoke to them you both agreed on the size they sent to you as being the best choice, so your as much to blame for the fit as anyone. Maybe next time try to leave your ego out of the measurements and just tell the truth, your a small skinny guy, since obviously your stature was not enough to fill out the size large jacket you got, simple as that. Sorry but thems the facts.
    i did say i was partly to blame, thats why i never persued it. The exchange was offered to me, i accepted, but it never materialized, twice.....boo-hoo for me; if someone says they want to make it up to me then fine, but i'm not one to chase down freebees. I never even ranted on about the vapourware, just about the equipment in general as a review. Besides i've modded it to fit me, so i dont care about the sizing anymore. As for the sizing, i did give accurate measuremnts, was boarderline on them between sizes, and yes i know how hard it is to fit someone tall and lean (thats why V-Top had a medium-tall size). Its moot anyways, it doesnt bother me.

    What does bother me, which is the part that is on topic that you brought up, is about hype. You've been on Brians ass about this pointing a few choice fingers (which is really grating, i certainly wouldnt have as much patience as he has), yet you've been an over-the-top booster of hype for RG from the beginning, and i know its from being more than just a customer. When i started anti-hyping (and tit-for-tat at that) because of my dissatisfaction with the products design in general and kept challenging the tired line "they wont sell you something that wont fit", i was suddenly offered a replacement (see above).

    not sure what my point was, but your attitude really got me on my bad side...

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by zedro
    i did say i was partly to blame, thats why i never persued it. The exchange was offered to me, i accepted, but it never materialized, twice.....boo-hoo for me; if someone says they want to make it up to me then fine, but i'm not one to chase down freebees. I never even ranted on about the vapourware, just about the equipment in general as a review. Besides i've modded it to fit me, so i dont care about the sizing anymore. As for the sizing, i did give accurate measuremnts, was boarderline on them between sizes, and yes i know how hard it is to fit someone tall and lean (thats why V-Top had a medium-tall size). Its moot anyways, it doesnt bother me.

    What does bother me, which is the part that is on topic that you brought up, is about hype. You've been on Brians ass about this pointing a few choice fingers (which is really grating, i certainly wouldnt have as much patience as he has), yet you've been an over-the-top booster of hype for RG from the beginning, and i know its from being more than just a customer. When i started anti-hyping (and tit-for-tat at that) because of my dissatisfaction with the products design in general and kept challenging the tired line "they wont sell you something that wont fit", i was suddenly offered a replacement (see above).

    not sure what my point was, but your attitude really got me on my bad side...
    Well the decision not to pursue your replacement was your decision, remember that. RG did not in any way practice bad business. So your out of line.

    Anyhow, unlike you I prefer not to air my dirty laundry with Brian, publicly, as you will note by the lack of specifics in my posts. He knows what I'm talking about and that's enough for me. Since he refuses to reply to my emails, I'm left with no other option but to attempt to engage him on the boards.

    Just a suggestion, but maybe, like BJ, you'd do better if you replied to posts that 1) actually had something to with you or 2) you had some knowledge about. Which I believe are 2 things that my response to Brian contained non of. Ya think? Just because your a MOD doesn't mean you need to get involved in every post, again like someones else we all know. You don't see Shuntavi gettting involved do you?

    Now we can all get along or we can proceed by airing dirty laundry and causing all invloved more problems than it's truly worth. Your choice. I have said nothing outside the rules and have just been having fun with Brian, similiar to you relationship with BJ, as of late. Because honestly I don't really care any longer about Brian or his products.

    Think about it...

  29. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by red5
    RG did not in any way practice bad business. So your out of line.
    never said they did, nor am i out of line. Was just pointing out how you have been.

    as for "dirty laundry", well, you're only saying that because you're taking this in the personal sense....

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by zedro
    never said they did, nor am i out of line.
    Really?

    Quote Originally Posted by zedro
    The exchange was offered to me, i accepted, but it never materialized, twice.....
    Sounds like your saying.........what? Your lack of complete details would lead one to beleive that RG doesn't care or isn't concerned with it's customers which is BS.

    Answer me this, do you think if you bought a jacket from one of "the other guys" after calling to get sizing info, agreeing on a size, purchsed and received the jacket, then wore it riding only to discover it doesn't fit as you'd liked you would even be offered a chance to return it? Doubtful!

    Honestly, this whole issue could have been resolved had you ponied up to your responsability, but you didn't so now you try to slam them when I mention them in threads were it's appropriate regarding Armour. Why don't you slam all the people on here who hype Marzocchi or Foes or Santa Cruz?? I thought moderators were supposed to remain impartial? Guess this doesn't apply to you. Anyhow, I digress.......ths has nothing to do with the original issue...

    Which was the original issue in question, me as a customer, within the previous posts you interrupted.

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    Quote Originally Posted by red5
    Honestly, this whole issue could have been resolved had you ponied up to your responsability, but you didn't so now you try to slam them when I mention them in threads were it's appropriate regarding Armour.
    honestly i really dont care, i dont have any gripes with RGs CS, although they may have dropped the ball. The fit issue was very minor, i mostly hated the design. As i said, i managed to get it to fit while i was waiting to get the new one that never arrived (I gave my mailing address, remember? I just assumed they were between model years hence a delay). I never did receive it, but i didnt believe it was worth persuing anyways months later since i managed to mod it to fit anyways.

    Why don't you slam all the people on here who hype Marzocchi or Foes or Santa Cruz??
    i do slam people that excessively and consistantly hype other products, especially if theres a suspicious link (although theres one that i've had to reign myself in on). You were one of those types and i made sure to counter-balance with my own review on each pace. You shoulda seen the ****-storm i caused with the Evil worshippers before the first bashguard was even shipped.
    I thought moderators were supposed to remain impartial?
    since when? i was a poster for over 5 years before becoming a mod. Like i've said, if i cant be a mod and have an opinion, i'll gladly give this zero-paying job to someone else.

    Which was the original issue in question, me as a customer, within the previous posts you interrupted.
    if you wanted to have a private conversation, i suggest you send him a PM or email. Otherwise people can comment on whatever you publicly post, and you're certainly allowed to ignore anyones comments. And despite you not realizing it, i was topical in response to something you said.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by zedro
    honestly i really dont care, i dont have any gripes with RGs CS, although they may have dropped the ball. The fit issue was very minor, i mostly hated the design. As i said, i managed to get it to fit while i was waiting to get the new one that never arrived (I gave my mailing address, remember? I just assumed they were between model years hence a delay). I never did receive it, but i didnt believe it was worth persuing anyways months later since i managed to mod it to fit anyways.


    i do slam people that excessively and consistantly hype other products, especially if theres a suspicious link (although theres one that i've had to reign myself in on). You were one of those types and i made sure to counter-balance with my own review on each pace. You shoulda seen the ****-storm i caused with the Evil worshippers before the first bashguard was even shipped.

    since when? i was a poster for over 5 years before becoming a mod. Like i've said, if i cant be a mod and have an opinion, i'll gladly give this zero-paying job to someone else.


    if you wanted to have a private conversation, i suggest you send him a PM or email. Otherwise people can comment on whatever you publicly post, and you're certainly allowed to ignore anyones comments. And despite you not realizing it, i was topical in response to something you said.
    zedro if you dont want to be a mod I'll take it.
    Tony
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    Turns out that five years of not mountain biking, really makes one strive to get back to it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by COmtbiker12
    zedro if you dont want to be a mod I'll take it.
    not until you're old enough to order a lap-dance from one of montreals finer peeler joints...

    i cant beleive he thinks i'm easy on everyone else

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by shock
    And BTW, the Rotec floater isn't attached to any sliding link, it is a solid linked attached to a fixed position on the floater, and a fixed position on the "chainstay".

    And while there is simililarity to the stock v-10 floater in the fact that they both attach to a suspension link, the dynamic similarity is quite different. In fact the stock v-10 floater was roundly critisized for being ineffective, with most pros removing theirs and santa cruz discontinuing it for '05. While our v-10 floater was a significant improvement. (there's a review posted somewhere here).
    I have a Schwinn 4-banger/straight-6 (Lawill) like the one in this pic, and can attest to the fact that they have a very strange brake behaviour (esp with a 6" rear). They don't just "brak-jack" or pack-up under braking -- they kinda crab-walk when you hit the brake at slow speeds and affect the hadling at higher speed braking. At higher speeds you tend to pre-load the rear a bit before braking to compensate for the "lift".

    I also have a Yeti DH9 with the stock floater off the hub, and it has none of the strange braking issues. I imagine the floater is there for a reason, and the 9" lawill prob has an even nastier "lift".

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by zedro
    not until you're old enough to order a lap-dance from one of montreals finer peeler joints...

    i cant beleive he thinks i'm easy on everyone else
    Damn.

    Lol. If it's any consolation I think that you're a hardass to everybody equally. In general the only times you get pissed are when ignorance and misconceptions are held by people not open to thinking other things.
    Tony
    is making a comeback.

    Turns out that five years of not mountain biking, really makes one strive to get back to it.

  36. #36
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    Now this is really getting kinda dumb, and way off topic

    Quote Originally Posted by red5
    Hey if you want to know what kind of customer I am call Steve Herbst at Kenda USA or talk to anyone at ROCKGARDN, I buy stuff from them regularlyand have built a strong personal relationship with both. One which is beneficial to both parties, equally.

    See, I have no problems when things live up to the hype. Unlike alot of pros or industry peeps, I prefer to use and pay for stuff that works best for me since I actually haveto pay for my stuff, not the other way around.
    And of course here I am contributing to the digression....Hopefully I can say what I want to before da ali g show starts, but I doubt it...

    Red, I don't need to call anyone to see what kind of customer you are. Your dealings with those companies are between you and them. I don't have any relationship[ with either, and have never tried or used RG products, (although I have used, and will continue to use Kenda tires for some applications).

    What I do know about you is soley based on how you represent yourself in this forum, and from the private contact you have made with me. Your comments about "hype" and "whether it works best for you", seem a little of base. To my knowledge you have never been a customer of ours, nor have you even tried any of our products on any bike whatsoever. Please correct me if I'm wrong...I wonder how you can claim to make a judgement as to whether our products "live up to the hype" if you've never tried them..

    As far as paying versus getting paid, we pay no one to use our products (especially) including the word champ, Fabien Barel...We do sponsor him, as well as selected other pros, but only with product, which I doubt they would use (even for free) if they didn't feel it was a benefit...

  37. #37
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    Red5, we have no "dirty laundry"....to imply so would seem

    Quote Originally Posted by red5
    Well the decision not to pursue your replacement was your decision, remember that. RG did not in any way practice bad business. So your out of line.

    Anyhow, unlike you I prefer not to air my dirty laundry with Brian, publicly, as you will note by the lack of specifics in my posts. He knows what I'm talking about and that's enough for me. Since he refuses to reply to my emails, I'm left with no other option but to attempt to engage him on the boards.

    Just a suggestion, but maybe, like BJ, you'd do better if you replied to posts that 1) actually had something to with you or 2) you had some knowledge about. Which I believe are 2 things that my response to Brian contained non of. Ya think? Just because your a MOD doesn't mean you need to get involved in every post, again like someones else we all know. You don't see Shuntavi gettting involved do you?

    Now we can all get along or we can proceed by airing dirty laundry and causing all invloved more problems than it's truly worth. Your choice. I have said nothing outside the rules and have just been having fun with Brian, similiar to you relationship with BJ, as of late. Because honestly I don't really care any longer about Brian or his products.

    Think about it...
    to indicate that in some way you are a dissatisfide customer, that didn't get treated right, or vise/versa. You simply pm'd me with (your exact words in quotes) a "little business venture", whereas I "send a floater kit for (your) Big Hit at half MSRP, and if you see a marked improvement (you) will pay the remainder of the price and promote the living crap out of it"

    You also mention that you've never heard of any fsr customer asking about a floater, yet it was that very thing that started this of, a customer asking about a floater for his Big Hit.

    Also, I never refused to answer your emails, to my knowledge you never emailed. I did respond to the pm I mentioned above, to the email address you gave me. Hopefully you recieved it, if not...? I politely (I think) declined your offer, noting that it was a request for a "special deal", which I didn't think was in line with my policy (and keeping things fair with other customers who pay up front). Also, I think the money back guarantee stands out in this industry, and should be enough to remove anyone's fears of getting ripped of by my "hype".

    Have fun with me, make fun of my forgetting to upload a picture, make fun of my M-1, call my fork a hb, say I'm funny looking and my legs are crooked, I don't care...

    Try to imply that the price is more than 3 times what it is, ask for spedcial deals, imply that my product is simply hype when you've never tried it, that I pay people to use it or say that it's good, and I will dispute that.

    You admonish zedro for responding to threads that 1) actually had something to do with you, or 2) you had some knowledge about, yet this thread started as a question about floaters on lawill bikes. Does this have anything to do with you? do you have any knowledge about this? have you ever ridden any bike with a floater? have you ever ridden a lawill type bike (with or without a floater)?

    You don't care about me or my products, but when someone posts a question about a Heckler floater, you tell them it's not worth it, when I post pics of my bike, you have nothing but negative comments, when you state that you would like a thread to die, you are the one keeping it alive......

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    Oh, and I didn't respond to your second pm, because it

    simply seemed inflamatory, with no constructive benefit.....If you would like to discuss anythin by email, feel free at [email protected]

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    Quote Originally Posted by shock
    .....and promote the living crap out of it"
    sounds familiar....

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    And finally, about what kind of customer you might be..

    Again, the only thing I have to judge you by is the way you represent yourself on this forum, and by your 2 pm's. To my knowledge we have never met, and I have no idea of your riding skill or lack thereof.....

    What I do know is that (without exception), I enjoy my dealings with my customers. I have found them to be very positive about mountain biking and life in general. I prefer to deal with positive people, and I try to be whenever possible.Ok, sometimes I can be a ***** and an ahole (like everyone else), but I try to avoid that when possible. I don't think spreading negative energy is in my best interests, and I wonder about people that seem to enjoy that...

    I have turned customers down before, and will continue to do so if I choose not to deal with their attitude... my business, my choice, and I will turn down money...I'm not in this for the money, I can (and have) made a lot more money doing other things..

    I'm in this business because I like riding, I like bikes, and I like making products that solve a problem. I do not sell products based on hype. You are entitled to state your opinion, but really, if you haven't tried it, it's a pretty useless opinion...like saying boxxers are the best fork when you've never tried another brand (for example). At least when zedro commented about RG, he had some direct experience with the product to comment about...

    Certainly if I were your sponsor, I would not be happy with your general outlook, or your tendency to be negative to seemingly every thread (not just about floaters).

  41. #41
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    and in an attempt to "rerail" this thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal
    This is hopefully as simple as explanations of braking behaviour get.

    When you hit the brakes (either end), the bike tries to rock forwards on it's suspension. The front compresses and the rear extends.
    Depending on the rear suspension, the rear end can either help the bike rock forwards (we call this brake jack) or it can fight the bike rocking forwards (we call this squat).

    Generally jack is a very bad thing and too much squat is as well. Jacking makes the bike unstable and hard to ride, while too much squat stops the rear suspension from working well with the brakes on.

    The basic idea of floaters is to change the braking behavour to something better than it originally was. Most of them try to aim for neutral braking where the bike still rocks forwards but the rear brakes don't make it jack or stop the suspension from doing it's job.
    A few years ago, I tried to discourage the term "brakejack" as a descritpion of any and all behavior of the rear suspension under braking. Really, the lawill type design is the only common design to exhibit true "jack", that is the tendency to rise under braking. I wanted to use the term "brakepack" for all the other bikes that squat under braking, since it causes the suspension to pack down, or rather keep it from extending on the back side of the bump....not entirely dissimilar to running WAY too much rebound damping...

    But I kinda lost that battle, and it seems to have become a common term to use "brake jack" for every suspension design...

  42. #42

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    hmm, brakepack, thats good. Just keep using it and eventually it'll stick

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by haxormachine
    I have a Schwinn 4-banger/straight-6 (Lawill) like the one in this pic, and can attest to the fact that they have a very strange brake behaviour (esp with a 6" rear). They don't just "brak-jack" or pack-up under braking -- they kinda crab-walk when you hit the brake at slow speeds and affect the hadling at higher speed braking. At higher speeds you tend to pre-load the rear a bit before braking to compensate for the "lift".

    I also have a Yeti DH9 with the stock floater off the hub, and it has none of the strange braking issues. I imagine the floater is there for a reason, and the 9" lawill prob has an even nastier "lift".
    The crab walk is probably a result of the rear supension unable to comply with the bumps under braking, with that design, you would basically have more resistance to suspension compression under braking, like suddenly having a much stiffer spring, causing the back tire to leave the ground and hop around...

    And yes, your DH9 would be pretty evil without the floater, like the original Tomac 204....very spooky in steep stuff. In additioon to the rear suspension not working, you suddenly get a steeper rake in the front end when the rear rises, at exactly the moment when you don't want that....

  44. #44
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    OK here we go...

    Edited: FSR's need floaters too, GOT IT!
    Last edited by RED5; 12-07-2006 at 02:06 PM.

  45. #45
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    Edited: More @ss like comments removed.
    Last edited by RED5; 12-07-2006 at 02:06 PM.

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    Edited: for the sanity of everyone posting on MTBR. Shalom.
    Last edited by RED5; 12-07-2006 at 02:07 PM.

  47. #47
    oly
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    Sheesh....... Hey, why dont you all exchange phone #'s and argue somewhere else. Out of 45 replies i think i got like 10 good bits of info. This is what I hate about forums, but oh well. Carry on.

    Thanks shock for providing some info about the Lawwill. I think ill continue any other Questions personally to you by e-mail. Unfortunatly i didnt get to ride the Astrix this weekend. Ill try to get on it next weekend. My initial thought though is the Huckster should also have the floater after feeling the flat land ride so far.

    Oh, and the IH bike i mentioned is located here: http://www.ironhorsebikes.com/freeri..._kumicho.shtml . Im sure there a bunch of pics of the bikes on HCOR and MTBR from IB...

    Shock, Look for an e-mail from me. Ill introduce myself in the subject line.

  48. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by oly
    Sheesh....... Hey, why dont you all exchange phone #'s and argue somewhere else. Out of 45 replies i think i got like 10 good bits of info. This is what I hate about forums, but oh well. Carry on.
    threads about floating brakes tend to have that effect here for some reason....

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by zedro
    threads about floating brakes tend to have that effect here for some reason....
    Same with threads about suspension designs.
    Tony
    is making a comeback.

    Turns out that five years of not mountain biking, really makes one strive to get back to it.

  50. #50
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    Edit: Stop the insanity!
    Last edited by RED5; 12-07-2006 at 02:08 PM.

  51. #51
    oly
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    Quote Originally Posted by zedro
    threads about floating brakes tend to have that effect here for some reason....
    Yea, i would have expected some derailment on FSR and SP bikes, but not about how good or bad or Hyped Rockgarden gear is..... Thats just rude. But its a public forum right?

  52. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by oly
    Yea, i would have expected some derailment on FSR and SP bikes, but not about how good or bad or Hyped Rockgarden gear is..... Thats just rude. But its a public forum right?
    old battles keep comming back lol

  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by zedro
    old battles keep comming back lol
    Because some people can't seem to heal old wounds.

    Rockgardns name was brought up to make a point to shock about my relationship as a customer with certain. Not to take a cheap shots by slandering people or companies. Or am I not allowed to defend my reputation, by use of example, when it is called into question? Shock made a comment about me as a customer and since Kenda and RG are the only companies I do business with on a personal/regular basis, it made sense to use them to make my point.

    Zedro, regardless of whether you choose to believe it or not I pay for everything I use and always have. I'm sorry if more people don't seem to have such good relations with the people or companies they do business with, I guess I've just been fortunate.

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