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  1. #1
    Shiveriffic
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    Floating Brake Kit for Big Hit?

    Does anyone make a Floating Brake Kit for a Big Hit? Also, do you guys think a floating rear brake would help out a big hit? I know the Floating Kits are usually on single pivot bikes. How much does a floating kit run for anyways? If they are out there, can somebody post a picture of a big hit equiped with a floating rear brake!
    Cheers
    Gary
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  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Grimm
    Does anyone make a Floating Brake Kit for a Big Hit? Also, do you guys think a floating rear brake would help out a big hit? I know the Floating Kits are usually on single pivot bikes. How much does a floating kit run for anyways? If they are out there, can somebody post a picture of a big hit equiped with a floating rear brake!
    Cheers
    Gary
    No you most likely don't need it. Only a very well trained engineer can notice the even slightest brake jack on a Horst link.

    -TS
    Fayetteville, AR and N.W.A RePrEsEnT

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    Is the Big Hit single pivot or 4 bar?

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  5. #5
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    May have new found respect for floating brake.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Grimm
    Does anyone make a Floating Brake Kit for a Big Hit? Also, do you guys think a floating rear brake would help out a big hit? I know the Floating Kits are usually on single pivot bikes. How much does a floating kit run for anyways? If they are out there, can somebody post a picture of a big hit equiped with a floating rear brake!
    Cheers
    Gary
    At Interbike I had an interesting conversation with Brian Berthold at Therapy Components about his floating brake setups. Obviously I expected him to tout his product, but I got an interesting insight about it. I asked him about 4-bar Horst and other linkage designs allegedly not being as prone to braking influences on their suspensions as perhaps simple single pivot designs. He very compentently explained how a floating brake affects all suspension designs in a very positive manner. A Trek Session 77 was in his booth with a floating setup installed--not Horst, but linkage and axle pivot design. He described Alex Shandro's, and others, use of the product. He also explained how some of these well known riders have a commitment to Shimano's Saint group, for which Brian doesn't have a floater built for yet--the cup and cone bearing setup presenting a problem for the caliper mount at this point. He said these riders use the floating brake on their factory supplied bikes for everything but public appearances and photo sessions, because they have to display the Saint product. Sure enough, at the Trek booth, Shandro was there for an autograph/poster appearance, and he confirms the use of the floating brake. I'm not an engineer, but I notice a lot of high end dirt and pavement motorcycles use floating brake designs. Obviously these motorcycles have different and sophisticated linkage designs, but apparently still benefit from a floating brake. The whole concept makes sense to isolate braking influences at the rear wheel from the suspension action. I'd bet riders who ride in seriously rocky, gnarly terrain benefit the most from floating brakes, and that's probably where most long travel, big hit bike riders like to ride. I'm probably going to order one next week for my Bullit which will definitely benefit from the setup. Craig H, one of the MTBR moderators, certainly confirms their benefit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DHbiker
    Is the Big Hit single pivot or 4 bar?
    4-Bar and more specifically, Horst link.

    -TS
    Fayetteville, AR and N.W.A RePrEsEnT

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by TNC
    Alex Shandro's, and others, use of the product...
    andrew?

  8. #8
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    LOL! But of course.

    Quote Originally Posted by zerossix
    andrew?
    Hmmm...must've been a senior moment.

  9. #9
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    ive done tons or dhing in really rocky places and to tell you the truth i see absolutely no need for a floating brake setup.

  10. #10
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    floating brakes for me forever.....huge difference, but this is comming from a single pivot
    Quote Originally Posted by Gunslingger
    no doubt you must have majored in english or something rad!!!

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    Huh?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Grimm
    Does anyone make a Floating Brake Kit for a Big Hit? Also, do you guys think a floating rear brake would help out a big hit? I know the Floating Kits are usually on single pivot bikes. How much does a floating kit run for anyways? If they are out there, can somebody post a picture of a big hit equiped with a floating rear brake!
    Cheers
    Gary
    I'm sure you could fit a floater on a Big Hit, but it would be the biggest waste of money since a Horst-Link bikes suspension moves independent of braking forces.

    From the Spec website...
    Quote Originally Posted by Specialized Tech
    <TABLE cellSpacing=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=textcell> </TD><TD class=textcell>Our FSR design 4-bar linkage bikes actually don't suffer from "Brake Jack". The 4-bar design, when done properly, naturally avoids this problem. They are active in all situations (braking, sitting, standing, coasting, pedaling). You are correct, our catalogs don't refer directly to brake jack. Not to say that they shouldn't, I guess they've always just targeted the fact that all of our designs are fully active and independent, which in a way implies that brake jack is non-existent, it's just not as obvious a method of mentioning it. We should be more direct in this respect.</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
    Hope this helps answer your question. If you having problems with your bike over braking bumps, then it's more likely improperly tuned suspension.

  12. #12
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    Thanks for that.

    Quote Originally Posted by TNC
    At Interbike I had an interesting conversation with Brian Berthold at Therapy Components about his floating brake setups. Obviously I expected him to tout his product, but I got an interesting insight about it. I asked him about 4-bar Horst and other linkage designs allegedly not being as prone to braking influences on their suspensions as perhaps simple single pivot designs. He very compentently explained how a floating brake affects all suspension designs in a very positive manner. A Trek Session 77 was in his booth with a floating setup installed--not Horst, but linkage and axle pivot design. He described Alex Shandro's, and others, use of the product. He also explained how some of these well known riders have a commitment to Shimano's Saint group, for which Brian doesn't have a floater built for yet--the cup and cone bearing setup presenting a problem for the caliper mount at this point. He said these riders use the floating brake on their factory supplied bikes for everything but public appearances and photo sessions, because they have to display the Saint product. Sure enough, at the Trek booth, Shandro was there for an autograph/poster appearance, and he confirms the use of the floating brake. I'm not an engineer, but I notice a lot of high end dirt and pavement motorcycles use floating brake designs. Obviously these motorcycles have different and sophisticated linkage designs, but apparently still benefit from a floating brake. The whole concept makes sense to isolate braking influences at the rear wheel from the suspension action. I'd bet riders who ride in seriously rocky, gnarly terrain benefit the most from floating brakes, and that's probably where most long travel, big hit bike riders like to ride. I'm probably going to order one next week for my Bullit which will definitely benefit from the setup. Craig H, one of the MTBR moderators, certainly confirms their benefit.

    I wish I could have went to Interbike. Thanks for sharing some of what your learnt. I dont really have a problem over braking bumps, but I am always searching for ways of improving my ride. I have a buddy (with an orange) who swears the brake therapy is the best thing since sliced bread. Thanks for the advice, I'm going to write the guys at brake therapy and get their 2 cents.
    ~Cheers
    Gary

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Grimm
    I have a buddy (with an orange) who swears the brake therapy is the best thing since sliced bread. Thanks for the advice, I'm going to write the guys at brake therapy and get their 2 cents.
    ~Cheers
    Gary
    The reason your bud loves his floater is because his Orange is an SP (single pivot) bike and has horrible brake jack without it. Honestly, you will not seen or feel any marked improvement in your Big Hit with a floater. The only thing you will notice is the big empty space in your wallet/bank account where your money used to be.

    I guarantee you the guys at Therapy will try to tell you otherwise though. They will insist it will make a difference and from their point of view it's understandable, afterall their job is to sell floating brake setups. And since your inquiring to them, you will appear to not know the difference between a bike that needs a floater and one that doesn't. Which makes you an easy mark.

    In the end it's your money, waste it how you'd like. If you don't mind my asking what year is your Big Hit?

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by red5
    I guarantee you the guys at Therapy will try to tell you otherwise though. They will insist it will make a difference and from their point of view it's understandable, afterall their job is to sell floating brake setups. And since your inquiring to them, you will appear to not know the difference between a bike that needs a floater and one that doesn't. Which makes you an easy mark.

    In the end it's your money, waste it how you'd like. If you don't mind my asking what year is your Big Hit?
    they'll also tell you theres a 100% money back garantee.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gunslingger
    no doubt you must have majored in english or something rad!!!

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by zedro
    floating brakes for me forever.....huge difference, but this is comming from a single pivot
    Exactly! Keys words to note here people, are...

    floating
    brakes
    for
    a
    single
    pivot


    Nuff said.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zedro
    they'll also tell you theres a 100% money back garantee.
    But you know as well as I that regardless of the guarantee, if he believes it works even though it does nothing, he'll never want to return it. And I assure you their betting on that fact.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by red5
    But you know as well as I that regardless of the guarantee, if he believes it works even though it does nothing, he'll never want to return it. And I assure you their betting on that fact.
    the same could be said about Horst stuff in general.

    saying that there will be no difference simply isnt true, the mechanics between the two are different, and can be tuned moreso. Now to say that any noticible performance gain would be negligible is a subjective argument, some people are more or less sensitive to their own bikes performance. There are some that even argue they cant tell the difference as far as single pivots go, even when others feel the night and day (and this goes for anything).
    Quote Originally Posted by Gunslingger
    no doubt you must have majored in english or something rad!!!

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by red5
    I'm sure you could fit a floater on a Big Hit, but it would be the biggest waste of money since a Horst-Link bikes suspension moves independent of braking forces.

    From the Spec website...

    Hope this helps answer your question. If you having problems with your bike over braking bumps, then it's more likely improperly tuned suspension.
    But red....dont they want to sell you a 4bar bike? I belive zedro has a lot of good points, I would like to see if Mr. Grimm (a normal weekend warrior) will see a diff.

    Not saying anything bad about you red.....your one of the fourms best posters, but just give it a small chance....
    People call me a dick, but I just think im clever.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zedro
    what he meant was 'greaser' types, most likely performing choreographed musical outakes which somehow degrade dirt jumps...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gramatica
    But red....dont they want to sell you a 4bar bike? I belive zedro has a lot of good points, I would like to see if Mr. Grimm (a normal weekend warrior) will see a diff.

    Not saying anything bad about you red.....your one of the fourms best posters, but just give it a small chance....
    I already have a 4-bar bike, Big Hit. I agree with you regarding Zedro, that's why it's always a pleasure to share my views and experiences with this board so I may have the pleasure of reading all the replies. And I completely agree with Zedro that there maybe more of mechanical difference, than that of any noticable performance gain. And that was pretty much the point I was trying to convey, but didn't feel it necessary to mention the mechanical part since it's voided by the lack of performanceg gained. Regardless of the mechanical changes, he'll gain no better noticable performance. I still stand behind the fact the Horst bikes don't need it and will not benefit ''noticeably" from it

    Please understand I'm not try to give this guy a hard time or give the appearance that I'm a know it all. I would just hate to see someone spend a fair chunk of money for such a small perceived gain, if any at all. As always people are entitled to do as they wish and if he still feels he wants to try it, then I beleive he should. I just thought he should have a better understanding as to why some bikes seem to benefit from it (Bullit, Gemini, V10) and others mechanically speaking probably won't (Big Hit, Demo, M1, Azonic Recoil).

    I don''t beleive that just because you may not agree with me that you are trying to slander me or make negative views. I think it's great to hear others opinions and sometimes even rewarding, because they may have an understanding that I hadn't given thought too and could prove useful.
    Last edited by RED5; 10-16-2004 at 05:09 PM.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by red5
    I already have a 4-bar bike, Big Hit. I agree with you regarding Zedro, that's why it's always a pleasure to shared my views and experiences with this board so I may have the pleasure of reading his replies. And I agree that there maybe more of mechanical difference, than that of any noticable performance gain.

    Please understand I'm not try to give this guy a hard time or give the appearance that I'm a know it all. I would just hate to see someone spend a fair chunk of money for such a small perceived gain, if any at all. As always people are entitled to do as they wish and if he still feels he wants to try it, then I beleive he should. I just thought he should have a better understanding as to why some bikes seem to benefit from it (Bullit, Gemini, V10) and others mechanically speaking probably won't (Big Hit, Demo, M1, Azonic Recoil).

    I don''t beleive that just because you may not agree with me that you are trying to slander me or make negative views. I think it's great to hear others opinions and sometimes even rewarding, because they may have an understanding that I hadn't given thought too and could prove useful.
    Your a good man....

    Rock on, and Ride hard.
    People call me a dick, but I just think im clever.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zedro
    what he meant was 'greaser' types, most likely performing choreographed musical outakes which somehow degrade dirt jumps...

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by zedro
    floating brakes for me forever.....huge difference, but this is comming from a single pivot
    Really? Care to expand on the performance enhancement you experienced?

    Did you make your own or go with Therapy?

    I would love to try one on my Turner, but drilling a straight hole in my frame worries me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slack
    Really? Care to expand on the performance enhancement you experienced?

    Did you make your own or go with Therapy?
    i made my own...along with the bike.

    Basically i get better braking traction, independant suspension movement under braking (ie. no lock-up or chatter), and experience less dive (although this has alot to do with the high main pivot location which wants to squat more, which the floater lets it do more readily)
    Quote Originally Posted by Gunslingger
    no doubt you must have majored in english or something rad!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by zedro
    better braking traction, independant suspension movement under braking (ie. no lock-up or chatter), and experience less dive
    Not to be a smart@zz, but that sounds allot like how my FSR performs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by red5
    Not to be a smart@zz, but that sounds allot like how my FSR performs.
    alledgedly

    same basic premise, but like all differing systems, the exact performance can vary. Plus i can adjust my system to behave differently.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gunslingger
    no doubt you must have majored in english or something rad!!!

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by zedro
    alledgedly

    same basic premise, but like all differing systems, the exact performance can vary. Plus i can adjust my system to behave differently.
    True dat!

    I do wish my Big Hit would exhibit the squating trait while braking of some other designs, like the Canfield F1.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by red5
    True dat!

    I do wish my Big Hit would exhibit the squating trait while braking of some other designs, like the Canfield F1.
    You mean where you can bounce holding the brake and the frame wont move forwards or backwards at all? (sorry if it was mentioned earlier im too damn lazy to read the thread).... My V-10 with floater does it, although Ive heard that BrakeTherapy makes a much better floater for the V10
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    Huh?

    Quote Originally Posted by COmtbiker12
    You mean where you can bounce holding the brake and the frame wont move forwards or backwards at all? (sorry if it was mentioned earlier im too damn lazy to read the thread).... My V-10 with floater does it, although Ive heard that BrakeTherapy makes a much better floater for the V10
    Not sure what your describing. But if I hold my brakes and bounce all my bike does is move up and down.

    What I was actually referring too is...when you grab the rear brake the rear of the bike actually squats (lowers in it's travel) lowering the center of gravity and in turn raking the bike out more, which helps in really steep sections.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by zedro
    alledgedly

    same basic premise, but like all differing systems, the exact performance can vary. Plus i can adjust my system to behave differently.
    It would be cool if you could do that on the fly.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by red5
    Not sure what your describing. But if I hold my brakes and bounce all my bike does is move up and down.

    What I was actually referring too is...when you grab the rear brake the rear of the bike actually squats (lowers in it's travel) lowering the center of gravity and in turn raking the bike out more, which helps in really steep sections.
    Nevermind then, thats interesting though. I dont think Ive noticed that on any of my bikes....
    Tony
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    Turns out that five years of not mountain biking, really makes one strive to get back to it.

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    are K2 Tirades single pivots?

  31. #31
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    Coming from a bike with a floater (Straight Six) and going to a bike with no floater (v10 with standard dropouts) I rode both on the courses at the Final Descent this year and noticed no difference in braking performance as far as braking bumps go... I have also noticed that the V10 no longer has an option for a floating rear brake any longer... I have ridden my Heckler (no floater) on courses that I have ridden my straight six and in that case I do notice MAJOR differences in braking performances.
    The Super T you have is really a very good fork. I'd take that fork over a Fox 40 or a Boxer unless i was entering a fashon contest instead of a race

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frankenschwinn
    Coming from a bike with a floater (Straight Six) and going to a bike with no floater (v10 with standard dropouts) I rode both on the courses at the Final Descent this year and noticed no difference in braking performance as far as braking bumps go... I have also noticed that the V10 no longer has an option for a floating rear brake any longer... I have ridden my Heckler (no floater) on courses that I have ridden my straight six and in that case I do notice MAJOR differences in braking performances.
    Intresting.... Isent vpp considered a 4 bar as well?
    People call me a dick, but I just think im clever.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zedro
    what he meant was 'greaser' types, most likely performing choreographed musical outakes which somehow degrade dirt jumps...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frankenschwinn
    Coming from a bike with a floater (Straight Six) and going to a bike with no floater (v10 with standard dropouts) I rode both on the courses at the Final Descent this year and noticed no difference in braking performance as far as braking bumps go... I have also noticed that the V10 no longer has an option for a floating rear brake any longer... I have ridden my Heckler (no floater) on courses that I have ridden my straight six and in that case I do notice MAJOR differences in braking performances.
    in the case of the V10, the floater was pretty redundant for most of the travel apparently. I guess it wasent worth offering in the first place but they did anyways for some reason.

    Lawill designs on the other hand need a floater, otherwise they tend to brake jack.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gunslingger
    no doubt you must have majored in english or something rad!!!

  34. #34
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    Lawill designs on the other hand need a floater, otherwise they tend to brake jack.

    That was my understanding too.

    Just thought I would post my personal observations.
    The Super T you have is really a very good fork. I'd take that fork over a Fox 40 or a Boxer unless i was entering a fashon contest instead of a race

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frankenschwinn
    Lawill designs on the other hand need a floater, otherwise they tend to brake jack.

    That was my understanding too.

    Just thought I would post my personal observations.
    hey frankenschwinn, since you got your v10 what are you gonna do with your schwinn frame? If youre not keeping a build would you consider selling it cheap?
    Tony
    is making a comeback.

    Turns out that five years of not mountain biking, really makes one strive to get back to it.

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by COmtbiker12
    hey frankenschwinn, since you got your v10 what are you gonna do with your schwinn frame? If youre not keeping a build would you consider selling it cheap?
    I think I am going to put 24" wheels, a 5" travel fork and some lighter weight parts on it for my son.

    I have seen a few online for not much $ though. What size are you needing?

    BTW, How is Dave Lee? did he have surgery? You know him don't you?
    Tell him I said thanks for the deal.
    The Super T you have is really a very good fork. I'd take that fork over a Fox 40 or a Boxer unless i was entering a fashon contest instead of a race

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frankenschwinn
    I think I am going to put 24" wheels, a 5" travel fork and some lighter weight parts on it for my son.

    I have seen a few online for not much $ though. What size are you needing?

    BTW, How is Dave Lee? did he have surgery? You know him don't you?
    Tell him I said thanks for the deal.
    Thats cool. I'm pretty much open to any size as I'm looking for a play bike, I tend to like small bikes anyways, I'm 6'1" and my V10 has a 16" seat tube.

    I dont know Dave very much, I've ridden with him a few times and know hes about one of the fastest guys in town but havent heard much since the summer about him.
    Tony
    is making a comeback.

    Turns out that five years of not mountain biking, really makes one strive to get back to it.

  38. #38
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    Wink Zedro, Red, lets sort this out....

    I’m rolling a 03 Big Hit. First off, I am not a racer. I go out on Saturdays and do some DHing and do street riding once or twice during the week. So I may or may not notice a difference with a floating rear brake, but I do ride in Australia. Australia has more than its fair share of rocks, and I was interested in finding a way to smooth out rough braking sections (believe me, I do play with my shock settings, tire pressures, and even play with my forks (not as much as Zedro, but Shivers are pretty simple)). But lets get to the point; it's all about physics. Now my first year of college is a drunken blur, but I do remember some stuff. Remember that vector stuff Red5? You see the suspension is doing it's job while the braking system is adding addition forces into the picture (hence creating vectors), it would seem to me that I one were to eliminate an outside force then the one could have the suspension suspend the bike, and the braking system stop the bike independent of another... Now don't kill me Zedro, I’m not an engineer. What do you boys think? And Red5, I am not a retard, you write in a very condescending tone; just chill guy and spread the love...

    Thanks
    ~Gary

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Grimm
    ....... You see the suspension is doing it's job while the braking system is adding addition forces into the picture (hence creating vectors), it would seem to me that I one were to eliminate an outside force then the one could have the suspension suspend the bike, and the braking system stop the bike independent of another...
    thats basically the difference between a Horst 4 bar and a floating brake. Now the question is to what degree this makes a noticible difference (since the Horst at least alleviates the traction issues and terrain/tire influences), something i cant give an opinion on since i havent ridden a Horst.

    I hesitate to recommend anything expensive, but at least Brake Therapy does offer their satisfaction garantee (upto you to agree with Reds cynicysm on that tho).
    Quote Originally Posted by Gunslingger
    no doubt you must have majored in english or something rad!!!

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Grimm
    it would seem to me that I one were to eliminate an outside force then the one could have the suspension suspend the bike, and the braking system stop the bike independent of another
    Well bascially what your decribing is what the Horst Link does, just different mechanically than a floater. It allows the suspension to work independently of the braking forces. This is how the bike is able to still track the terrain while your grabbing a handful of rear brake.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Grimm
    And Red5, I am not a retard, you write in a very condescending tone; just chill guy and spread the love
    I'm sorry if it appears to you that I'm implying that you are a "retard", that is not my intention. My intention is to try and give a detailed explanation of how each system works and why different bike designs may or may not benefit from certain modifications.


    You say you have an 03 Big Hit, I'm guessing Expert. That would mean you have a stock Vanilla RC, yes? That being the case then, as I stated before, any issues you may be experiencing with braking bumps are probably coming from the shocks inability to deal with the rougher terrain. I have the same bike and often thought the bike had seemed rough in bumpy terrain. So I decided to upgrade my rear shock and have it PUSH'd. And I can tell you wholeheartedly that it made a world of difference. Now my bike seems to float over bumps and rides much smoother. Upgrading your shock to one with Stable Platform would be a better investment to manage what your trying to do. Your problems are not with the interaction between the suspension design and braking forces, but more to do with the shock and bumps. Basically the bumps are overcoming the shocks ability to deal with them, which is a pretty standard characteristic of non-platform Fox Vanilla RC's.

  41. #41
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    Technically speaking...

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard85
    are K2 Tirades single pivots?
    Yes and no.

    Now let me explain. Take a look at the 2 photos and pay special attention to the pivot placement near the rear axle. If the pivot is in front and below the rear axle like on the Big Hit it's an FSR Horst Link 4-bar design, if not and it resembles the Tirades pivot location of being above the axle on seatstay instead of the chainstay then theoretically it's a single pivot. SO while the Tirade is called a 4-bar, it exhibits similiar characteristics to single pivots especially when it comes to braking.

    The term single pivot more often than not is used to describe the suspensions characteristics, than the design itself. Other common 4-bar Single Pivots are Kona's and Giant AC's.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  42. #42
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    Cheers Red...

    Thanks guy, sorry for being so sensitive. I am riding an Expert, with the origional RC on the back. What do you mean when you say your shock was "Push'd"? I have heard great things about some of the stable platform shocks, but I have never ridden one. So what shock are you running now? Also, on the Horst link, do you really think it eliminates all brake jack? You yourself mentioned that bikes rolling a floating brake often sink when the brake is applied, and the bighit do the opposite (probably due to the forks diving). I know specialized says the frames don't have any brake jack, but alike brake therapy they are a company making money. I thought for sure somebody was running one. You mentioned that they are really expensive; I figured they would sell for around the 50-100 dollar mark. How much do they go for?
    Thanks guy
    ~Gary

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Grimm
    Thanks guy, sorry for being so sensitive. I am riding an Expert, with the origional RC on the back. What do you mean when you say your shock was "Push'd"?
    http://www.pushindustries.com/

    They take your FOX shock, and custom valve it for you, a good chunk of change....but I hear they have quality products, and good customer service.
    People call me a dick, but I just think im clever.

    Honary member of the
    591 club & 773 club.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zedro
    what he meant was 'greaser' types, most likely performing choreographed musical outakes which somehow degrade dirt jumps...

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Grimm
    Thanks guy, sorry for being so sensitive. I am riding an Expert, with the origional RC on the back. What do you mean when you say your shock was "Push'd"? I have heard great things about some of the stable platform shocks, but I have never ridden one. So what shock are you running now? Also, on the Horst link, do you really think it eliminates all brake jack? You yourself mentioned that bikes rolling a floating brake often sink when the brake is applied, and the bighit do the opposite (probably due to the forks diving). I know specialized says the frames don't have any brake jack, but alike brake therapy they are a company making money. I thought for sure somebody was running one. You mentioned that they are really expensive; I figured they would sell for around the 50-100 dollar mark. How much do they go for?
    Thanks guy
    ~Gary
    PUSH (click here for link) is a local company here in So.Cal that adds stable platform damping to stock Fox shocks. Here is a brief description of what they did too my Fox Vanilla RC...

    Fox Vanilla RC Race System
    Available only for the Vanilla RC, Race Systems take the “Works” approach and put it into the privateer’s hands. With Multi-Stage Valving, Torco Race Fluids and high grade materials, this kit brings World Cup performance to your local trail. As with all PUSH services, Race Systems services are valved with the rider, riding style and frame in mind, by expert technicians.

    I'm pretty confident when I say FSR bikes, if designed properly, should not illicit any noticable brake jack. I have ridden many bikes, single pivots and VPP's, that do and have never noticed similiar tendencies with my Big Hit.

    Actually my reference to bikes that squat was not in reference to running a floater, but to a specific bike design itself. Big Hit's actually remain neutral when the brakes applied, whereas single pivots,like the Bullit and Gemini, tend to rise and stiffen which makes them unable to react to the terrain with the brakes applied.

    Now while I agree alot of companies use gimmicks to make money, some of what they say has to make sense otherwise they wouldn't be able to remain in business. Some of Specialized's technology, like their Body Geometry shoes, gloves and saddles, seem sort of gimmicky. But thats only because since not every body is the same, then the same sort of padding or saddle cutouts cannot apply to everyone. My point about Therapy is that while it cannot hurt your bike to use the floater, it certainly also may not help it and would be a big waste on money and likely not going to tell you that you won't benefit, because they may see it as every bike has "some probable" brake jack. And you can figure on spending anywhere from $300-400 USD on a floater system, at least from the reviews I've read. Also figure you may have to buy a new hub and have your wheel rebuilt to make room for the Floater system.

  45. #45
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    unless you are a serious racer, then you don't need a floating rear brake. How many times do you even notice? For me, occaisonally, but I can live without getting one. Mostly stutter bumps efect it the most

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    Quote Originally Posted by SHIVER ME TIMBERS
    unless you are a serious racer, then you don't need a floating rear brake. How many times do you even notice? For me, occaisonally, but I can live without getting one. Mostly stutter bumps efect it the most
    i'm not a serious racer, not even a non-serious racer. Why does having a well performing ride always have to be about racing?
    Quote Originally Posted by Gunslingger
    no doubt you must have majored in english or something rad!!!

  47. #47
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    Here is an old thread where we were talking about the floating brake on the Bullit (with pics of my old Bullit).
    http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=8668

    A more recent thread over on the SC board.
    http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.ph...99985#poststop

    If anyone has any questions, post here, or on one of the threads above.

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by COmtbiker12
    My V-10 with floater does it, although Ive heard that BrakeTherapy makes a much better floater for the V10
    Ladge who posts here has a Brake Therapy floating brake on his V-10. He has posted pics of it on the DH board. If you search the archives you'll probably find it.

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Grimm
    I know specialized says the frames don't have any brake jack, but alike brake therapy they are a company making money. I thought for sure somebody was running one. You mentioned that they are really expensive; I figured they would sell for around the 50-100 dollar mark. How much do they go for?
    Thanks guy
    ~Gary
    I'm guessing you are asking about the price of the Brake Thearpy floating brake? If so, the whole kit is around $300US, depending on the bike model, brake model, rotor size & rear hub model.

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by red5
    Also figure you may have to buy a new hub and have your wheel rebuilt to make room for the Floater system.
    The kit fit my existing hub (DT Swiss Hugi) and I didn't have to rebuild the wheel.

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheSherpa
    No you most likely don't need it. Only a very well trained engineer can notice the even slightest brake jack on a Horst link.

    -TS
    Ah, where to start? I guess first to introduce myself since it's been quite a while since I've posted here.

    Hi all, this is Brian from Therapy Components, makers of Brake Therapy (among others).

    Apologies to being so late to chime in here, and to all the emails that I'm behind in responding to (which I probably should be doing now instead of this, but I WILL get caught up shortly, I promise). Just getting back and recovering from Interbike, which, as much as I like it, seems to take more and more out of me every year......

    Ok, it doesn't take a trained engineer, or even a train engineer to notice brake force induced suspension interaction on ANY bike. Really, the most novice of riders and/or intellectual midget can feel this.

    Do you realize it NOW??? That's a different question entirely. I've had riders on all types of bikes say that there bike doesn't exhibit this tendency, and when we put a floater on the bike they say "ohhhh, that's what the difference is".

    My point here is that just because you don't identify the problem as such, doesn't mean it's not happening. Without a floating brake, the tendency is to say "that's normal, all bikes do that" as of course they do. Sometimes it takes a chance to realize how good it can be to realize how bad it was...Does this make sense?

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by dhracer1067
    ive done tons or dhing in really rocky places and to tell you the truth i see absolutely no need for a floating brake setup.
    But if you tried it you might change your mind???

  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by CraigH
    The kit fit my existing hub (DT Swiss Hugi) and I didn't have to rebuild the wheel.
    That's why I said "may" have too. I have heard some people who have had to too replace them, not sure why, but they did. It was just an observation and not meant to imply a definite need.

  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by red5
    I'm sure you could fit a floater on a Big Hit, but it would be the biggest waste of money since a Horst-Link bikes suspension moves independent of braking forces.

    From the Spec website...

    Hope this helps answer your question. If you having problems with your bike over braking bumps, then it's more likely improperly tuned suspension.
    You are incorrect in your statement that a horst link bike moves independently of braking forces. The brkae caliper on any bike, regardless of suspension design, is attached via solid steel bolts to the same piece of hardware that the rear wheel is attached to. Therefore, the braking forces have NO CHOICE, the reaction force MUST BE transmitted through those bolts, to the very piece of hardware they are attached to. There is no way around this....

    A couple of related points.....ALL BIKES ARE SINGLE PIVOT!!!!!!!!!

    The original "horst link" design (which, by the way, was "invented" to deal with pedalling forces) and all other multi linkage bikes, are "single pivot". What I mean by this is that these design allow the "virtual pivot" to be located in a different position than would normally be possible with a conventional single pivot, and in most cases, that "virtual pivot" location changes as the rear suspension compresses.

    Most of the time, the designer uses this to create a "more desirable??" axle path, that matches their theory on what is "more desirable". But in all cases, the forces involved at any given position of suspension travel are calculated using a single pivot point, and ARE IDENTICAL to what would happen if the suspension were a single pivot swingarm rotating around that point.

    This is not to say that all suspension designs are equal regarding their management of braking forces. Pivot location is the single most important factor in this, BUT, again, when it comes to force reactions, all bikes are single pivot....

    While the controvervy brews, I would like anyone involved to please show me how this is not true. Show by use of free body diagrams and vector force analysis....

    Please don't use anyone's website/marketing propaganda as proof (including ours). Most of that stuff is written by marketing geniuii, who are going to create a line that they think sounds plausible, and that the uninformed consumer will buy (except ours of course, more on that later)..

  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by shock
    But if you tried it you might change your mind???
    Make me one for my new V-10 and i'll compare the too.

    -TS
    Fayetteville, AR and N.W.A RePrEsEnT

  56. #56
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    The reason is not all hubs have the space between the spoke flange and the frame mounting surface to be able to install the bearings and the caliper arm.

  57. #57
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    Boy...

    Quote Originally Posted by shock
    You are incorrect in your statement that a horst link bike moves independently of braking forces. The brkae caliper on any bike, regardless of suspension design, is attached via solid steel bolts to the same piece of hardware that the rear wheel is attached to. Therefore, the braking forces have NO CHOICE, the reaction force MUST BE transmitted through those bolts, to the very piece of hardware they are attached to. There is no way around this....

    A couple of related points.....ALL BIKES ARE SINGLE PIVOT!!!!!!!!!

    The original "horst link" design (which, by the way, was "invented" to deal with pedalling forces) and all other multi linkage bikes, are "single pivot". What I mean by this is that these design allow the "virtual pivot" to be located in a different position than would normally be possible with a conventional single pivot, and in most cases, that "virtual pivot" location changes as the rear suspension compresses.

    Most of the time, the designer uses this to create a "more desirable??" axle path, that matches their theory on what is "more desirable". But in all cases, the forces involved at any given position of suspension travel are calculated using a single pivot point, and ARE IDENTICAL to what would happen if the suspension were a single pivot swingarm rotating around that point.

    This is not to say that all suspension designs are equal regarding their management of braking forces. Pivot location is the single most important factor in this, BUT, again, when it comes to force reactions, all bikes are single pivot....

    While the controvervy brews, I would like anyone involved to please show me how this is not true. Show by use of free body diagrams and vector force analysis....

    Please don't use anyone's website/marketing propaganda as proof (including ours). Most of that stuff is written by marketing geniuii, who are going to create a line that they think sounds plausible, and that the uninformed consumer will buy (except ours of course, more on that later)..
    I think you are somewhat confused. The seatstay that the brake attaches too on the FSR is actually seperate from the suspension, so the chainstay and shock are still able to move independently of the brake through it's travel.

    And if that's not the case then how come when I sit my FSR and cycle my travel how come the caliper doesn't rotate around the rotor like it does on my Rocker Link single pivot 4-bar KSH FR2000 or my buds Gemini? Can you please explain that and I don't need any diagrams or vector force analysis, just a nice simple concise explanation would suffice. Thanks.

  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by red5
    I think you are somewhat confused. The seatstay that the brake attaches too on the FSR is actually seperate from the suspension, so the chainstay and shock are still able to move independently of the brake through it's travel.

    And if that's not the case then how come when I sit my FSR and cycle my travel how come the caliper doesn't rotate around the rotor like it does on my Rocker Link single pivot 4-bar KSH FR2000 or my buds Gemini? Can you please explain that and I don't need any diagrams or vector force analysis, just a nice simple concise explanation would suffice. Thanks.
    no, he's not the one confused. Its what i said above but everyone seemed to ignore, the FSR will provide somewhat corrected wheel orientation through the travel in order to improve the traction issues, but does not isolate the suspension forces because they are all part of the same system as Brian stated. Its the same principal to why Lawills require a floater, because that particular geometry has a much greater influence on the system, causing severe jack; but essentially, the configuration is the same as the Horst.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gunslingger
    no doubt you must have majored in english or something rad!!!

  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by red5
    The seatstay that the brake attaches too on the FSR is actually seperate from the suspension, so the chainstay and shock are still able to move independently of the brake through it's travel.
    The seat stay is not seperate from the suspension. They are actually bolted together with a bearing.

    Try and move your chainstay and shock without moving the seatstay and brake caliper bolted assembly. When the suspension & brake is completely assembled it can't be done.


  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by red5
    The reason your bud loves his floater is because his Orange is an SP (single pivot) bike and has horrible brake jack without it. Honestly, you will not seen or feel any marked improvement in your Big Hit with a floater. The only thing you will notice is the big empty space in your wallet/bank account where your money used to be.

    I guarantee you the guys at Therapy will try to tell you otherwise though. They will insist it will make a difference and from their point of view it's understandable, afterall their job is to sell floating brake setups. And since your inquiring to them, you will appear to not know the difference between a bike that needs a floater and one that doesn't. Which makes you an easy mark.

    In the end it's your money, waste it how you'd like. If you don't mind my asking what year is your Big Hit?
    Mr. red5, I have a few questions for you. Have you ever ridden any bike equipped with a Brake Therapy floating brake? Have you ridden any bike equipped with ANY floating brake, ours or otherwise? (and of course all floaters are not created equal, more on that later). Would you please list your experience in back to back testing of bikes with and without floating brakes?

    Because in order for you to answer "honestly" as in your quote above, certainly you must have some experience to back up those statements. If you have tested our floating brake, and felt no "marked improvement" have you asked for your money back? Why not?

    Yes, the "guys at Therapy" (me) will tell you otherwise. It is not our (my) job to tell you otherwise. It is our job to provide solutions to real problems. We have no interest in designing, manufacturing, or selling ANY product that does not provide a noticable, real improvement to the riding experience.

    We made floating brakes to answer a need/demand, not to market "snake oil" to unsuspecting consumers. I have absolutely no interest in that. I love the fact that our customers are (without exception) very enthusiastic about our products and the difference they make in improving the quaility of their riding experience.

    I absoluty have NO INTEREST in selling products because someone is AN EASY MARK!!!!! Your reference to being a con man is not true and not appreciated. I offered the money back guarentee to allow people to try the floater, with NO OBLIGATION, and no chance of being ripped off.

    I apoligize for taking umbrage at this point, but I do not like being compared to a con man....

  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by shock
    Mr. red5, I have a few questions for you. Have you ever ridden any bike equipped with a Brake Therapy floating brake? Have you ridden any bike equipped with ANY floating brake, ours or otherwise? (and of course all floaters are not created equal, more on that later). Would you please list your experience in back to back testing of bikes with and without floating brakes?

    Because in order for you to answer "honestly" as in your quote above, certainly you must have some experience to back up those statements. If you have tested our floating brake, and felt no "marked improvement" have you asked for your money back? Why not?

    Yes, the "guys at Therapy" (me) will tell you otherwise. It is not our (my) job to tell you otherwise. It is our job to provide solutions to real problems. We have no interest in designing, manufacturing, or selling ANY product that does not provide a noticable, real improvement to the riding experience.

    We made floating brakes to answer a need/demand, not to market "snake oil" to unsuspecting consumers. I have absolutely no interest in that. I love the fact that our customers are (without exception) very enthusiastic about our products and the difference they make in improving the quaility of their riding experience.

    I absoluty have NO INTEREST in selling products because someone is AN EASY MARK!!!!! Your reference to being a con man is not true and not appreciated. I offered the money back guarentee to allow people to try the floater, with NO OBLIGATION, and no chance of being ripped off.

    I apoligize for taking umbrage at this point, but I do not like being compared to a con man....

    Wow, your actually being quite professional and you've explained everything very well. But the real question is, will there be a floating brake for the new V-10's and how much do they weigh?

    -TS
    Fayetteville, AR and N.W.A RePrEsEnT

  62. #62
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    Found his post with a review on the Brake Therapy floating brake installed on his V-10.

    http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.ph...09925#poststop

  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by CraigH
    Found his post with a review on the Brake Therapy floating brake installed on his V-10.

    http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.ph...09925#poststop
    Yea, but i'm talking about those new fangled v-10's. Not a chance in hell i'm drilling into my frame though.

    -TS
    Fayetteville, AR and N.W.A RePrEsEnT

  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by red5
    But you know as well as I that regardless of the guarantee, if he believes it works even though it does nothing, he'll never want to return it. And I assure you their betting on that fact.
    Ok, I'll admit it's possible that some (very few?) customers might be subject to the "self fulfilling prophecy" (hey engineering students have to take electives you know!), and may not ask for there money back because they "think" that it works and might be embarassed to ask for there money back, but, to this date, NO ONE has asked for there money back. Our paying customers range from top 20 pros, to casual riders, and I don't believe that ANY of them have kept there floater for this reason.

    Seriously, at US$295.00, and 1/2 to 3/4 of a pound of weight, how many people do you think WOULDN'T ask for their money back if they didn't think it was worth it. Do you really think everyone is that gullible?

    By the way, I never gamble. Not even in Las Vegas at Interbike. Not interested.

    I design and make products to answer a demand for an existing problem. And if it wasn't for the demand of floating brakes it would be to continue our fork and shock development, or our (yet to be seen) cranks and bike designs that we're working on.

  65. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slack
    Really? Care to expand on the performance enhancement you experienced?

    Did you make your own or go with Therapy?

    I would love to try one on my Turner, but drilling a straight hole in my frame worries me.
    BTW, drilling the hole in your frame is 100% Dave Turner approved, and will not void your warreny in any way.....

  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by zedro
    in the case of the V10, the floater was pretty redundant for most of the travel apparently. I guess it wasent worth offering in the first place but they did anyways for some reason.

    Lawill designs on the other hand need a floater, otherwise they tend to brake jack.
    Yes, the stock v-10 floater actually gave a black eye to floating brakes. We had several customers that had our floater on other bikes that asked us to make a floater for the v-10, claiming that the stock floater didn't work as well as ours.

    If you look closely, you'll see that the stock floater rod attaches to the suspension link, thus imparting braking force into the suspension. It's really no wonder that pros (and others) started removing the floaters, claiming they were "ineffective". And also no wonder that the new v-10 comes without it. It wasn't really a "marketing success".

  67. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by shock
    warreny .
    Okay, you're cut off.

    True though. I got an email from the DT holy man........therapy floaters and the required holes void no warranty.

    And damnit one of these days I want to try one these things on a turner (mine).

    And as far as FSR bikes having no brake interaction............BS. I've ridden Foes bikes with floaters and then hopped back on one my FSR bikes and there is most certainly a difference between how the rear end works with and without brakes...more so than the big dumb single pivot foes bikes. Shock is right about axle paths. Most FSRs and specialized bikes in particular do nothing to act differently than single pivots that have their virtual pivot in a location that hinders wheel placement or sane bike design. Map it out. The big hit virtual pivot puts it in the way of the wheel or the bottom bracket if I remember correctly.

  68. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Grimm
    I m rolling a 03 Big Hit. First off, I am not a racer. I go out on Saturdays and do some DHing and do street riding once or twice during the week. So I may or may not notice a difference with a floating rear brake, but I do ride in Australia. Australia has more than its fair share of rocks, and I was interested in finding a way to smooth out rough braking sections (believe me, I do play with my shock settings, tire pressures, and even play with my forks (not as much as Zedro, but Shivers are pretty simple)). But lets get to the point; it's all about physics. Now my first year of college is a drunken blur, but I do remember some stuff. Remember that vector stuff Red5? You see the suspension is doing it's job while the braking system is adding addition forces into the picture (hence creating vectors), it would seem to me that I one were to eliminate an outside force then the one could have the suspension suspend the bike, and the braking system stop the bike independent of another... Now don't kill me Zedro, I m not an engineer. What do you boys think? And Red5, I am not a retard, you write in a very condescending tone; just chill guy and spread the love...

    Thanks
    ~Gary
    Ok, so don't worry about the first year being a drunken blur, it's the last two years that you really get to the good stuff... having said that you must have retained some sense of physics thru the alchohol...

    Yes, imagine your perfectly tuned suspension, spring and damping rates perfectly setup to deal with your rider weight, riding style, and terrain. All of a sudden you introduce up to 1000 pounds of (braking) force. Where's your compromise now?

    Removing this force is a good thing. Even a slow retard like me can tell the difference...

    BTW, saying it's the susensions fault is a little of base, if it's your suspension tuning, you will feel it whether you're on the brakes or not. The purpose of a floating brake is to let that "all conquering" suspension design/setup to continue working when you introduce the braking force....

  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by kidwoo
    Okay, you're cut off.

    True though. I got an email from the DT holy man........therapy floaters and the required holes void no warranty.

    And damnit one of these days I want to try one these things on a turner (mine).

    And as far as FSR bikes having no brake interaction............BS. I've ridden Foes bikes with floaters and then hopped back on one my FSR bikes and there is most certainly a difference between how the rear end works with and without brakes...more so than the big dumb single pivot foes bikes. Shock is right about axle paths. Most FSRs and specialized bikes in particular do nothing to act differently than single pivots that have their virtual pivot in a location that hinders wheel placement or sane bike design. Map it out. The big hit virtual pivot puts it in the way of the wheel or the bottom bracket if I remember correctly.
    Hey, you can't cut me off unless you're the one serving my drinks!!!!

    And you were supposed to make your own floater, what happened!!!!

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    quote by red5" Actually my reference to bikes that squat was not in reference to running a floater, but to a specific bike design itself. Big Hit's actually remain neutral when the brakes applied, whereas single pivots,like the Bullit and Gemini, tend to rise and stiffen which makes them unable to react to the terrain with the brakes applied. "

    On this point, I must claim absolute bs. Bullits and Gemini's and fsr's (and most bikes) exhibit a tendency to squat under braking. This is not so much felt as the rear of the bike actually compressing, as much as the suspensions inability to extend over the back side of bumps. Not entirely disimilar to having WAY too much rebound damping. Therefore the wheel comes of the ground on the back side of the bump, creaing many bad things when it hits the next bump.

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by shock
    Hey, you can't cut me off unless you're the one serving my drinks!!!!

    And you were supposed to make your own floater, what happened!!!!
    It got more expensive than what you sell!!!

    You should see the contraption I've got at my house. It's embarassing. With the bearings I was able to find that actually allow me to keep my rotor and the heavy ass rod I drilled and tapped, I think I doubled the weight of my swingarm.......and it still won't fit on my hub. And it looks like a bunch of random hunks of machined aluminum.......which it is.

    I'm defeated. At some point this winter.....after new ski boots and a rear wheel for my xc bike......I will be a customer of yours. It's too expensive not to be.

  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by zedro
    i'm not a serious racer, not even a non-serious racer. Why does having a well performing ride always have to be about racing?
    Ex****ingsactley!!!! This is about making your ride better. I have floaters on all my bikes, including my socalled cross country race bike (no sarcastic comments from those I may socalled race against)

    I just don't like the feeling of having my suspension compromised when I hit the brakes. And I don't have them on my bikes to sell more floaters.... 99% of my riding is in the woods, by myself

    Ok, it's getting late and I have work to do, I'll get back to this tomorow....

    Brian

  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by CraigH
    Try and move your chainstay and shock without moving the seatstay and brake caliper bolted assembly.
    Sure they move....UP. But the caliper does not rotate like it does on a single pivot. Maybe I'm not being clear when I say independent. What I mean is that the brake is not affected by the cycling of the suspension, it just sort of floats with the suspension but is not affected by it's movement.

    However, when I do the same thing on my FR2000 (kona knock off) or my bud Gemini, the caliper moves alot. Even more interesting is when I compress the suspension on the Gemini and hold the brake the bike does not rebound until I release the brake. And on the FR when I do the same thing the rear tire actually moves back in it's rotation causing my cranks too move a bit. However on my Big Hit when I do this, neither of these attributes are present, The wheel does not move and the suspension is still completely active.

  74. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by red5
    Sure they move....UP. But the caliper does not rotate like it does on a single pivot. Maybe I'm not being clear when I say independent. What I mean is that the brake is not affected by the cycling of the suspension, it just sort of floats with the suspension but is not affected by it's movement.

    However, when I do the same thing on my FR2000 (kona knock off) or my bud Gemini, the caliper moves alot. Even more interesting is when I compress the suspension on the Gemini and hold the brake the bike does not rebound until I release the brake. And on the FR when I do the same thing the rear tire actually moves back in it's rotation causing my cranks too move a bit. However on my Big Hit when I do this, neither of these attributes are present, The wheel does not move and the suspension is still completely active.
    Wow. No-offense, but that test sounds about as conclusive as the Shiver between the legs flex test.

    -TS
    Fayetteville, AR and N.W.A RePrEsEnT

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    What!?!?

    Quote Originally Posted by shock
    quote by red5" Actually my reference to bikes that squat was not in reference to running a floater, but to a specific bike design itself. Big Hit's actually remain neutral when the brakes applied, whereas single pivots,like the Bullit and Gemini, tend to rise and stiffen which makes them unable to react to the terrain with the brakes applied. "

    On this point, I must claim absolute bs. Bullits and Gemini's and fsr's (and most bikes) exhibit a tendency to squat under braking. This is not so much felt as the rear of the bike actually compressing, as much as the suspensions inability to extend over the back side of bumps. Not entirely disimilar to having WAY too much rebound damping. Therefore the wheel comes of the ground on the back side of the bump, creaing many bad things when it hits the next bump.
    So what your telling me is that when my bike goes over a bump the rear end doesn't drop? Now how is that possible? So now not only is my FSR a single pivot, but it's also a hardtail since the suspension doesn't move over bumps.

    Could the reason my bikes rear wheel doesn't touch the ground on the backside of a bump is because the bike is in the air over the bump or maybe has already come in contact with the next trail irregularity.

    Not sure what bike your riding, but if you rear wheel doesn't extend after a bump, then I'd say your bike is having problems. Not trying to be a dick, it actually comes natural most of the time, bt your claims seem somewhat bs.

  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by red5
    Even more interesting is when I compress the suspension on the Gemini and hold the brake the bike does not rebound until I release the brake. .
    Got a video of that?

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    Thanks for coming in here and shedding a little light..

    So you have stated exactly what I felt the suspension was enduring when the brakes are applied. So here is the kicker, how and the hell do you make a floater work on a Big Hit. I have not see a big hit with a floater and am very curious about how the linkage can be done elegantly? Do you have any photos of Big Hits with your Floater setups? Do you make a floater for the Big Hit? Thanks for your time, hope your recovering from Inter-Bike..
    Thanks man
    ~Gary

  78. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by kidwoo
    ....... and the heavy ass rod I drilled and tapped, I think I doubled the weight of my swingarm.......
    i used a cut ski pole as a mock-up, and would of been fine to use had i not decided to use a threaded turnbuckle type setup.

    still have an extra floating brake arm, although slightly defective (first run CNC), might have to put it to good use one day.

    As for the floater discussion, everythings been said, its simply time for comprehension
    Quote Originally Posted by Gunslingger
    no doubt you must have majored in english or something rad!!!

  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by shock
    Do you really think everyone is that gullible?
    No not everyone, but definitely quite a few people.

    Quote Originally Posted by shock
    I design and make products to answer a demand for an existing problem. And if it wasn't for the demand of floating brakes it would be to continue our fork and shock development, or our (yet to be seen) cranks and bike designs that we're working on.
    And I don't dispute the need for your products in the mountain bike world. I guess as long as bike mfg's continue to make Gemini's, Bullit's, Hecklers, Kona's and other single pivot bikes, you'll still have business. Congrats.

    So is your bike design going to have a floater?

  80. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by shock
    BTW, drilling the hole in your frame is 100% Dave Turner approved, and will not void your warreny in any way.....
    Yeah, I know. It's not drilling a hole, so much as getting it parallel with the floater. The part of the frame that I need to drill (you already gave me the pdf instructions... thanks) into is at a slight angle.

  81. #81
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    Anyone?

    Those that are running floaters what do you reckon? And does anyone have a photo of a bighit or similar (intense, azonic,.....) with a floater setup? Thanks group. I am glad this page is able to hammer out some issues once in awhile other than what is the best DH frame or where can i get a dh frok for cheap..
    Thanks room..
    ~Gary

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    "Honestly"...

    Quote Originally Posted by shock
    Mr. red5, I have a few questions for you. Have you ever ridden any bike equipped with a Brake Therapy floating brake? Have you ridden any bike equipped with ANY floating brake, ours or otherwise? (and of course all floaters are not created equal, more on that later). Would you please list your experience in back to back testing of bikes with and without floating brakes?

    Because in order for you to answer "honestly" as in your quote above, certainly you must have some experience to back up those statements. If you have tested our floating brake, and felt no "marked improvement" have you asked for your money back? Why not?

    Yes, the "guys at Therapy" (me) will tell you otherwise. It is not our (my) job to tell you otherwise. It is our job to provide solutions to real problems. We have no interest in designing, manufacturing, or selling ANY product that does not provide a noticable, real improvement to the riding experience.

    We made floating brakes to answer a need/demand, not to market "snake oil" to unsuspecting consumers. I have absolutely no interest in that. I love the fact that our customers are (without exception) very enthusiastic about our products and the difference they make in improving the quaility of their riding experience.

    I absoluty have NO INTEREST in selling products because someone is AN EASY MARK!!!!! Your reference to being a con man is not true and not appreciated. I offered the money back guarentee to allow people to try the floater, with NO OBLIGATION, and no chance of being ripped off.

    I apoligize for taking umbrage at this point, but I do not like being compared to a con man....
    I can tell you that I have never ridden a bike with a floater, yours or otherwise. I have never said that a floater does not make a "marked improvement" on every bike design, except one. In fact I have stated quite the opposite.

    I beleive your floaters serve a very important purpose and if you asked me everyone owning a single pivot bike should be using one. So I don't beleive your selling "snake oil" and therefore do not beleive you to be a con man. All I was trying to tell the poster was that he should be very careful and understand just exactly how much improvement the floater is actually going to make, before shelling out money. And not to be easily persuaded by some sensationalist claims that a floater will change his bikes braking, like it did his buds Orange. Because it won't, at least not too the same degree or level.

    But now let me ask you a couple questions, if you wouldn't mind. Have you ever sold a floater to anyone owning a Big Hit? And if so why? Can you honestly tell me it's makes such a marked improvement that it warrants spending $300.00?

    Now along the same premise of riding bikes with floaters. I can tell you I have ridden many different bikes that didn't have them and notice brake jack, though varying degrees, on every bike design.

    I apologize if it appeared I was making you out to be a con man, that was not my intention. And completely understand you feelings about my reference regarding the possiblity of his being taken advantage of. He just seemed so taken by the fact that his FSR could be made better that I didn't want him to call you guys up and have it go something like this...

    Big Hit rider: Hello brake therapy. Will a floater make my Big Hit brake better?
    floater salesman: Well, sure it will.
    big Hit rider: COOL! I'll take it. Here's my CC info.
    floater salesman: No problem, thanks for your business. Cha-Ching.

    That would be wrong. I wanted to make sure he asked the right questions and make sure he got the correct informed answers, that was all. It is not my intention to attack people's character and business practices, unless I have dealt with them first hand and had issues.

    Again I'm sorry for any misleading or implied character references regarding your business practices.

  83. #83
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    I gotta go shovel snow now...........

    There are some pictures of M1's with floaters around somewhere..............

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    No worries...

    Quote Originally Posted by TheSherpa
    Wow. No-offense, but that test sounds about as conclusive as the Shiver between the legs flex test.

    -TS
    I'm not offended. I may not have a degree in vector forces or any applied science, but I inderstand the tests and diagrams I have seen by those who do. And while all that is fine and dandy, I still prefer to see real world results. And the facts speak for themselves.

  85. #85
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    Single pivot bikes try to squat a lot under braking.
    Horst link bikes squat less (some don't squat, some are almost as bad as the single pivots).

    Yes you can fit a floater to a bighit, but the difference won't be as big. You may not even notice it.

    My Turner is pretty close to a parallel linkage, it's the best braking bike I've ridden.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
    www.dougal.co.nz

  86. #86
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    Brian.

    I respect that you're here to correct a few myths about your product. You may not realise it, but you're throwing around many myths of your own.
    Your understanding of suspension geometry and behaviour, as expounded below, is flawed. Severely.

    You claim horst links are single pivots, yet the very system you are selling is very similar in geometry to a horst link rear end.

    The virtual pivot of a suspension system has no influence on the braking behaviour. The braking behaviour is a direct result of the rotation (with respect to the main frame) experienced by the link which the caliper is bolted to.

    Single pivots experience the most rotation and hence the worst braking squat.
    Horst links experience less rotation and less squat.
    The ideal parrallelogram experiences the least squat and hence the best braking behaviour.

    It is this behaviour you are trying to mimick with your floaters, but it is also this which is approximated by many bikes already.






    Brakiing behaviour is no secret, automotive suspension has headed away from calipers mounted on trailing arms for years. Many touring and performance motorbikes use either floaters or four bar rear ends (BMW paralever) to correct braking behaviour.

    Noone advertises floating rear brakes for a BMW paralever for a very good reason, there is no improvement to be made.

    Brian, please do some homework and stick to the facts you know are correct. I am willing to take up your freebody diagram challenge if you would like. But I am quite busy and only have a dial-up connection.


    Quote Originally Posted by shock
    You are incorrect in your statement that a horst link bike moves independently of braking forces. The brkae caliper on any bike, regardless of suspension design, is attached via solid steel bolts to the same piece of hardware that the rear wheel is attached to. Therefore, the braking forces have NO CHOICE, the reaction force MUST BE transmitted through those bolts, to the very piece of hardware they are attached to. There is no way around this....

    A couple of related points.....ALL BIKES ARE SINGLE PIVOT!!!!!!!!!

    The original "horst link" design (which, by the way, was "invented" to deal with pedalling forces) and all other multi linkage bikes, are "single pivot". What I mean by this is that these design allow the "virtual pivot" to be located in a different position than would normally be possible with a conventional single pivot, and in most cases, that "virtual pivot" location changes as the rear suspension compresses.

    Most of the time, the designer uses this to create a "more desirable??" axle path, that matches their theory on what is "more desirable". But in all cases, the forces involved at any given position of suspension travel are calculated using a single pivot point, and ARE IDENTICAL to what would happen if the suspension were a single pivot swingarm rotating around that point.

    This is not to say that all suspension designs are equal regarding their management of braking forces. Pivot location is the single most important factor in this, BUT, again, when it comes to force reactions, all bikes are single pivot....

    While the controvervy brews, I would like anyone involved to please show me how this is not true. Show by use of free body diagrams and vector force analysis....

    Please don't use anyone's website/marketing propaganda as proof (including ours). Most of that stuff is written by marketing geniuii, who are going to create a line that they think sounds plausible, and that the uninformed consumer will buy (except ours of course, more on that later)..
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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  87. #87
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    Interesting.........

    Kona's new Stinky Supreme/ Stab Supreme are coming factory with a floating rear brake... Now this is not your typical "Single Pivot Bike", and I realize that it's not a horst linkage suspension, but I feel it would fall pretty close to a specialized....
    ?????
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  88. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Grimm
    Kona's new Stinky Supreme/ Stab Supreme are coming factory with a floating rear brake... Now this is not your typical "Single Pivot Bike", and I realize that it's not a horst linkage suspension, but I feel it would fall pretty close to a specialized....
    ?????
    Not really, actually it's still just a single pivot. As long as the rear wheel's axle is connected directly to the main swingarm, like a bullit, it will show very much the same attributes when it comes to braking. Hence the reason they have floaters. However it will have a much different suspension feel than a cantilever beam or swingarm, Bullit, driven single pivot. See pic for reference...
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  89. #89
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    I see..... I think......

    Physics and myself parted ways along time ago... I went into the sciences, and am really wishing I spent more time drawing freebody diagrams. I really wish I could do a section with my bike, then slip the floater on and then redo the section and get a good comparison. $300 is a chunk of change, but I think my current Hugi hub will work. As far as weight goes not too worried about that aspect, my bike is already a beast, but take a look at this gem below.
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  90. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Grimm
    Physics and myself parted ways along time ago... I went into the sciences, and am really wishing I spent more time drawing freebody diagrams. I really wish I could do a section with my bike, then slip the floater on and then redo the section and get a good comparison. $300 is a chunk of change, but I think my current Hugi hub will work. As far as weight goes not too worried about that aspect, my bike is already a beast, but take a look at this gem below.
    Yeah I hear you. With all the conjecture in this thread, I'd really like to if there is indeed a difference. I highly doubt it would be enough to notice, but I love technology and trying new things. I beleive that more than anything is why I still ride bikes. There is just so much cool stuff to play and experiment with, that it never gets old.

    If you do decide to give the floater a try, please be sure and let us all know how it goes.

  91. #91
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    Here you go boys, I found some heavy stuff here..

    I have read this one twice, and I am still confused... I hate being a retard...
    Maybe the rest of you can sort it out..

    http://www.mtbcomprador.com/pa/engli...FloatingBrakes

    http://www.mtbcomprador.com/pa/english/

    Not sure why the above links won't link, so you guys will have to do the ole cut and paste...

    Have fun Zedro, you will be stoked on this one.

    Cheers
    ~Gary

  92. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Grimm
    I have read this one twice, and I am still confused... I hate being a retard...
    Maybe the rest of you can sort it out..

    http://www.mtbcomprador.com/pa/engli...FloatingBrakes

    http://www.mtbcomprador.com/pa/english/

    Not sure why the above links won't link, so you guys will have to do the ole cut and paste...

    Have fun Zedro, you will be stoked on this one.

    Cheers
    ~Gary
    Honestly, I've read alot of the info on that site and I for one don't agree with half the cr@p this guys is babbling about. Seems science can't answer everything. But then again I'm also not an engineer, so maybe that has something to do with it.

  93. #93
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    Just one more setup that I have come across....

    I reckon this would be similar to the Kona situation. I really don't see how a floater can be run on the bighit, there is just not enough room unless you did like the older V-10's and attach it to the suspension linkage, but that would defeat the purpose of the floater.. I would be keen to give one a go, but I just can't see where one can be placed in an elegant manner...

    Cheers
    ~gary
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    Well...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Grimm
    I reckon this would be similar to the Kona situation. I really don't see how a floater can be run on the bighit, there is just not enough room unless you did like the older V-10's and attach it to the suspension linkage, but that would defeat the purpose of the floater.. I would be keen to give one a go, but I just can't see where one can be placed in an elegant manner...

    Cheers
    ~gary
    in an effort squash all the conjecture and put this thread to rest, I have contacted shock about aquirring one of his floaters for my Big Hit to test the theories. We'll see what happens.

    Somehow, to make the system work they'd have to have some sort of adapter to attach it to the main frame. To attach it to any of the linkages would actually defeat the purpose in isolating the brake forces from the rear triangle, so that most likely wouldn't work.

  95. #95
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    Hey, now that'll be interesting.

    Quote Originally Posted by red5
    in an effort squash all the conjecture and put this thread to rest, I have contacted shock about aquirring one of his floaters for my Big Hit to test the theories. We'll see what happens.

    Somehow, to make the system work they'd have to have some sort of adapter to attach it to the main frame. To attach it to any of the linkages would actually defeat the purpose in isolating the brake forces from the rear triangle, so that most likely wouldn't work.
    Yes...please follow through on that, and let's see how it works. If you install one on your BH, I feel like you'll be fair in your assessment. I'm probably going to put one on my Bullit, which is apparently a known improvement model for a floating brake. One interesting note about your caliper movement observation on Horst vs. single pivot designs: I have a modified '00 BH (pictured here) and tried your experiment. The travel on this bike is about 6.5". I tried it on one of my Bullits (pictured here) also. I locked the rear wheels in place, so as not to get any "roll" which would affect rotor/caliper movement. I actually could get rotor/caliper movement out of both bikes when compressing the rear suspension, though the Bullit had more movement. The Bullit has more travel and is easier to compress than my BH, so I don't know how scientific this is. The bottom line was that I could actually see rotor/caliper movement on the BH. I think there is less movement, and it seems to be "taken up" by the chainstay articulating fairly dramatically, so I guess this is where the Horst "advantage" occurs. I do see noticeable rotor/caliper movement, however, but since it seems smaller, this is probably why the braking influence is not as great. There must be some influence, and it would be great to see how the floating brake affects it.
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  96. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gramatica
    Intresting.... Isent vpp considered a 4 bar as well?
    I dont think it is, at least it isn't the same as the horst link 4 bar, thats for sure. Thats why they are two seperate patents held by two different companies.

    You can definitely notice some brake jack on the v10 sitting in th parking lot bouncing up and down, but on the trail that 10 inches of travel tends to level things no matter what.
    Scratchy Rat Racing

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  97. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Grimm
    I have read this one twice, and I am still confused... I hate being a retard...
    Maybe the rest of you can sort it out..

    http://www.mtbcomprador.com/pa/engli...FloatingBrakes

    http://www.mtbcomprador.com/pa/english/

    Not sure why the above links won't link, so you guys will have to do the ole cut and paste...

    Have fun Zedro, you will be stoked on this one.

    Cheers
    ~Gary
    thats been around for a long time now (few years) and is pretty much 99% garbage. They dont prove their "proofs" (thats why its hard to understand), they completly fluff over important concepts and come up with some really wrong or spotty conclusions. Whats funny is the Linkage software that was hyperlinked to that thesis lets you debunk alot of the stuff they claim. Dont waste your time on it, your better off scouring Ridemonkey for key info.

    And BTW...the VPP is a 4 bar....it has 4 bars...just like Lawills, DWs, Stinkys.....4 bar linkage is a generic engineering term to describe the number of linkage members, regardless of their application.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gunslingger
    no doubt you must have majored in english or something rad!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by zedro
    thats been around for a long time now (few years) and is pretty much 99% garbage. They dont prove their "proofs" (thats why its hard to understand), they completly fluff over important concepts and come up with some really wrong or spotty conclusions. Whats funny is the Linkage software that was hyperlinked to that thesis lets you debunk alot of the stuff they claim. Dont waste your time on it, your better off scouring Ridemonkey for key info.
    Dooooood. That's my most favoritist researchiest paper ever. I've had that thing bookmarked for a year now. Just remember kids........Nature Varies Smoothly. Ahaah I love it. Science!!!! I can make up anything with a broad generalization and then cite myself to "prove" something later. Whoohoo. It's like reading Anne Coulter but for bikes!!

  99. #99
    mtbr member
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    Aug 2004
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    350

    OK,I'm back, wow you guys were busy today.....

    Quote Originally Posted by TheSherpa
    Make me one for my new V-10 and i'll compare the too.

    -TS
    I'm I the only one that has to work away from the computer during the day?

    Ok, where do I start, yes we will make one for the new v-10. Nothing in the new design makes me think that our floater won't work as well on it as the old one, but the new one might be a little more challenging, and will probably still require a hole drilled.

    BTW, ladge, the guy that posted the review of the floater on the old v-10, had to return his frame under warrenty, and they didn't seem to care about the hole (am I right on this Ladge?)

  100. #100
    mtbr member
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    350

    you know Craig, that tick creeps me out, I start feelin em!

    Quote Originally Posted by CraigH
    The reason is not all hubs have the space between the spoke flange and the frame mounting surface to be able to install the bearings and the caliper arm.
    To be more specific, all hubs have the same room between the brake disc mount and dropout, but in particular, shimano (including saint) and wtb have a loose ball bearing assembly on the axle, which prevents us from installing the floater bearing assembly, most cartridge bearing hubs we can handle.....

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