East coast/West coast RE: boxxer- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
    Johnny Dependable
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    East coast/West coast RE: boxxer

    What's the deal with the boxxer? It really seems that whether or not people like them depends on what part of the country they live in! When I'm on the east coast, I see boxxers everywhere and people love them. When I'm on the west coast a few people have them, but they are heavily criticized as being inferior. However, none of the critics have ever mentioned anything I consider valid when bashing the boxxer. They all just say they suck, and to avoid them, but dont give any specifics as to why. I suspect that most of the people bashing boxxers have never even owned one and are just parroting what some guy at the bike shop said, or what they overheard somebody say one time while riding up the lift....?!!? I would like to get some feedback from past and present boxxer OWNERS only please. Also, if anyone else out there travels a lot from coast to coast and has noticed this phenomenon let me know....it's seems pretty strange...

  2. #2
    Jm.
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    Ok.

    Leaky seals.
    Uncontrolled damping.
    Poor ajustment control of damping.
    Outdated damping (leads to 2 of the above problems).

    How's that?

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    Jm.
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  4. #4
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    No good wait a sec.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Jm.
    Ok.

    Leaky seals.
    Uncontrolled damping.
    Poor ajustment control of damping.
    Outdated damping (leads to 2 of the above problems).

    How's that?
    It's actually pretty vague and choppy. I was hoping for actual conversation type dialogue that would both be entertaining to read and informative through specific experiences....for example...."I had an 03 boxxer world cup and this happened when I did that and when I fixed this this other thing would happen, but that never happened when I owned this other fork made by blah blah blah....etc...."

    Come to think of it, Arent you the same person who recomended to some guy in another thread who was building up a "lighter" FR bike that he put an air shock on the rear and get carbon fiber handle bars and seat post and eggbeater pedals?
    yeah....alrighty then....thanks for your feedback....

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    Price - Durability - Weight

    You can only pick two when building a product. Rockshox picked wieght and price thus sacrificing durability. Boxxers blow seals and need to be maintained with rebuilds a lot. If your a racer with all the time in the world then it's the fork for you. If you ride a lot and don't like tinkering with the bike all the time get another fork. Personally I like to setup a bike and ride the crap out of it until somethings stops working or bugs me, so I went with a shiver.

  6. #6
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    That makes sense but.....

    Quote Originally Posted by traxxas
    Price - Durability - Weight

    You can only pick two when building a product. Rockshox picked wieght and price thus sacrificing durability. Boxxers blow seals and need to be maintained with rebuilds a lot. If your a racer with all the time in the world then it's the fork for you. If you ride a lot and don't like tinkering with the bike all the time get another fork. Personally I like to setup a bike and ride the crap out of it until somethings stops working or bugs me, so I went with a shiver.
    What you say about price-durability-weight makes sense, but I have had a different experience with maintaining my boxxer. First of all, Last year was my first year racing and second year overall on a downhill specific frame/fork so I dont claim to be an expert when it comes to dual crown forks. I have an 03 boxxer race on my DH bike and an 02 jr. T on my freeride bike. I have had to rebuild the jr. t 4 times since I have owned it. Oil frequently leaks from the dust seals onto the stanchions and there is a ton of stiction until I have been riding for about an hour and then it bottoms out. I added stiffer springs and heavier oil and it still didnt help all that much. Adding the stiffer springs stopped it from bottoming out, most of the time, but now the rebound SUCKS. On the other hand, I have never had to do anything to my boxxer. It rides like butter everytime. It's got the best and quickest rebound ever for fast technical riding and when I hit a small drop it still doesnt bottom out like the Jr. t. did with stock springs So based on my personal experiences, im having a hard time seeing what all the criticism is about. If you offered me a choice between a $1500 shiver or a $500 boxxer, I'd go with the shiver, for sure. But I don't think it's really fair to bash the boxxer based on the performance available from a fork 3 times it's cost...do you? If you compare the boxxer to other forks in it's same price range it kicks ass!...PERIOD

    Oh yeah,Anybody wanna buy an 02 jr. T?

  7. #7
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    Bill,

    I've been running an 03 Boxxer race for almost a year and a half now. I change the oil on it every 25 hours of riding or so. I use 5 wt Golden Spectro. I have yet to blow a seal, and the rebound damping on mine works just fine. I use mine for racing DH, and also FR. I think if you can get a good price on one, they are a great fork. Mind you they require more maintenance than other forks, but I love to tinker. I weigh 225. I run a yelllow spring in one leg, and a red in the other, with 3 preload spacers on each stack. BTW I live on the west coast. So Cal.
    Peace out! War In!

  8. #8
    Jm.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigBill
    It's actually pretty vague and choppy. I was hoping for actual conversation type dialogue that would both be entertaining to read and informative through specific experiences....for example...."I had an 03 boxxer world cup and this happened when I did that and when I fixed this this other thing would happen, but that never happened when I owned this other fork made by blah blah blah....etc...."

    Come to think of it, Arent you the same person who recomended to some guy in another thread who was building up a "lighter" FR bike that he put an air shock on the rear and get carbon fiber handle bars and seat post and eggbeater pedals?
    yeah....alrighty then....thanks for your feedback....
    Oh, ok, no problem

    I had an 03 and a 99 boxxer.

    Both had crappy seals

    Both had crappy damping control

    Both had crappy damping ajustment range.

    Both had archaic 1970s era mx ported dampers.

    How's that?

  9. #9
    Jm.
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    Come to think of it, Arent you the same person who recomended to some guy in another thread who was building up a "lighter" FR bike that he put an air shock on the rear and get carbon fiber handle bars and seat post and eggbeater pedals?
    yeah...alrighty then, he was trying to save weight dumbass and build a FR bike under 30lbs...if you got a better idea of how to do that, let me know.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jm.
    yeah...alrighty then, he was trying to save weight dumbass.......................

    woohoo!!!!

    go get him, Jm


    ps- i used to have a boxxer too. it was the flexiest, most untunable damping (unless you call stiction some kind of damping), tons-o-maintenence needing piece of bicycle junk i've owned. i couldn't re-sell it fast enough.
    Last edited by .WestCoastHucker.; 03-26-2004 at 01:18 PM.


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    JM,

    Boy did Rockshox sucker you in! You bought 2 forks from them over the years knowing that the damping systems were archaic? Got change for a 3 dollar bill?
    Peace out! War In!

  12. #12
    Jm.
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    one i bought brand new in 1999 for 400 bucks, the other came on my sgs pro, despite the POS fork, 1800 bucks is not a bad deal for over 3200 in parts, even if you have to switch out the fork.


    owned.

  13. #13
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    Since u asked....

    Quote Originally Posted by Jm.
    yeah...alrighty then, he was trying to save weight dumbass and build a FR bike under 30lbs...if you got a better idea of how to do that, let me know.
    I don't know all the details actually, I was just bustin your balls. But I would of probably told the guy to suck it up and do more riding until his bike didnt feel like a tank anymore. I don't understand why people try to build lightweight FR/DH bikes. I'd rather huff and puff and be slow on the climbs then have to go to the emergency room after a drop b/c my lightweight carbon fiber handlebars broke in half and I impaled myself.

    Although I do like to argue, that's not why I posted this thread. So far I have only gotten 2 pieces of constructive feedback into my query....anybody else have an ON TOPIC opinion?

  14. #14
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    03 IH SGS pro??? me too!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jm.
    one i bought brand new in 1999 for 400 bucks, the other came on my sgs pro, despite the POS fork, 1800 bucks is not a bad deal for over 3200 in parts, even if you have to switch out the fork.


    owned.
    Yeah $1800 was a pretty sweet deal eh? I felt bad buying mail order, I generally tend to buy exclusively from LBS's but I couldnt resist. I can't believe you didnt like your boxxer though. Did you give the boxxer a chance? How long was it on your bike b4 u sold it? When I ride my IH set up with the boxxer it's like BUTTER!

  15. #15
    Jm.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigBill
    I don't know all the details actually, I was just bustin your balls. But I would of probably told the guy to suck it up and do more riding until his bike didnt feel like a tank anymore. I don't understand why people try to build lightweight FR/DH bikes. I'd rather huff and puff and be slow on the climbs then have to go to the emergency room after a drop b/c my lightweight carbon fiber handlebars broke in half and I impaled myself.

    Although I do like to argue, that's not why I posted this thread. So far I have only gotten 2 pieces of constructive feedback into my query....anybody else have an ON TOPIC opinion?

    Well it made you look pretty idiotic. Not only for what you said, but the whole point of the post i made over there in the weight section was about why I thought that it was NOT going to be possible to build a decent freeride bike up at the weight that he wanted, not with the frame and the fork that he wanted.

  16. #16
    Jm.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigBill
    Yeah $1800 was a pretty sweet deal eh? I felt bad buying mail order, I generally tend to buy exclusively from LBS's but I couldnt resist. I can't believe you didnt like your boxxer though. Did you give the boxxer a chance? How long was it on your bike b4 u sold it? When I ride my IH set up with the boxxer it's like BUTTER!

    Yep, it felt like it was trying to break my wrists off at northstar. Any time that I tried to pick up speed, it felt horrible, it was pretty hard just to hang onto my bike at that speed. My Jr T gave me a similer feeling, and this is not a big suprise, both the Jr T and the boxxer have a similer damping system.

    I notice these things. It's pretty lame to say that "I ride faster than every one else", but just as an example, I hosted a ride here last week with some canadians, and one of the trails went down the side of a mountain. It wasn't the craziest descent ever, nor was it super technical, but there were some pretty fast sections, and you basically got going REAL fast. One of the comments I heard from one of the guys that at least before going down this thought his fork was real plush and well balanced was; wow, I noticed my fork packing up at speed big time. This was a Z3 with the "SSV" damping, similer to what boxxers have. He may have been feeling "packing up", or it may have just been spiking, either way it's a result of the damping system not being able to react fast enough or too much fluid trying to be forced through a fixed-diameter hole. This is the shortcomming of this damping system and the problem with the boxxer. There are no "shims" to provide a conrolled blowoff of damping fluid like cartridge forks have. This guy never thought his fork had any kind of problem though untill he went down this hill and tried to keep up with me. It wasn't that he was a bad rider, in fact this guy was from the northshore and I suspect he could drop a lot better than me, but I was a lot better suited to hauling at high speed on the trails.

    People who buy a Jr T, boxxer, or other SSV fork as their "first" real DH fork think it's the best thing they've ever used. Truely it is pretty lame to make fun of people and say that their fork sucks, but once you've tried the "next level" you realize their shortcommings, or maybe you stumble upon them in your day to day riding (as this guy did), but it is no doubt pretty hard to know what suspension "should" be like when you have a limited perception, as I did back in 1999 when I bought my first boxxer. The flow control problems are directly related to the design of the damper. The older boxxers had almost no rebound control and the ajusters did nothing, why? It is simple, because the SSV type damper is essentially a hole that the fluid has to move through. Since there are no shims that flex like in a cartridge damper(high end marzocchis, all foxes, even manitou TPC works on the same basic principle), the fluid is forced to flow through a fixed-diameter hole. The old boxxer didn't have spiking problems because rockshox made the holes big enough that it eliminiated that possibility. The tradeoff though was that you couldn't "ajust" the damping because if you had a range of ajustment that would actually affect the fork's damping, it would cause the spiking problem and you'd be back to square one. So the forks simple came with inneffective controls, and damping that at the best, "barely worked".

    In 03 they got better, but they ran into the spiking problem again. They increased the range of damping control, but since the oil was flowing through smaller holes (also notice the oil weight decreased from max of 30 weight to a max of 5 weight), it was now subceptible to spiking again, and people had to drill out their cartridges.

    I am giving you the "simple" explaination of the ported damper, and compared to the Jr T the boxxer's IS more advanced, but it still runs into and suffers from many of the same problems. When I rode it, I could feel it. My 03 did feel different than my 99 one did, and when you sit down and logically work this out, it all falls into place. Lighter weight damping fluid means that to get the same effective(or more) damping range, it has to flow through smaller holes, which brings the possibility of spiking in.

    Rockshox didn't have this figured out in 1998 when they brought the boxxer to the market, nor do they really have it figured out now. The fork works ok (for the team and WC models), and it is pretty lightweight, but it's like trying to design the ultimate drum brake, no matter how you bake it, it is still outdated and obsolete technology.

    I rode the boxxer long enough to know it's sortcommings, a good day of DH, quite a few good trail rider(with descents on the way back), even an oil change to what was "supposed" to be the newest, latests and greatest oil weight for the 03 boxxer- and it was pretty easy to see how lacking the fork was, especially compared to the rest of the bike. Previously, I had ridden northstar with my Stratos S8. There was absolutely no comparrission, the S8 blew away the boxxer, even though it was around 3-4lbs heavier, it just worked so much better and didn't give me the "im trying to break your wrists off" feeling. Now I ride a shiver, it's about 1.5lbs ligher than the stratos and works every bit as good, maybe a little better. It isn't perfect, I'd probably rather have an 888 or even a dual-cartridge super T, but it is pretty darn good and worlds better than the boxxer will ever be if they stick to the same damping system. This is not to mention any of the other DH forks that I've had, just a quick and dirty comparission between the fork I had on there before.

    Not to mention that on top of this, rockshox still hasn't figured out how to seal their fork properly. Maybe the 04s are better, but the 03s still suffered from blown seals pretty frequently.

    You asked a "loaded" question to start out with, and it takes a long time to write a resposne like this, so I'd rather just give the quick and dirty of it like I did above. Too many times though people take the attitude of "oh, well you didn't tune your boxxer right", or "well, boxxers work good for ME"...etc...
    Last edited by Jm.; 03-26-2004 at 04:37 PM.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jm.
    People who buy a Jr T, boxxer, or other SSV fork as their "first" real DH fork think it's the best thing they've ever used. Truely it is pretty lame to make fun of people and say that their fork sucks, but once you've tried the "next level" you realize their shortcommings, or maybe you stumble upon them in your day to day riding (as this guy did), but it is no doubt pretty hard to know what suspension "should" be like when you have a limited perception, as I did back in 1999 when I bought my first boxxer....
    I was that way until I got my Monster T. I pretty much had a 03 Boxxer Race for a little bit(friends also have it) and at the time I thought it was some of the nicest suspension I've ever ridden. THEN I got my 03 Monster T and I'll never look back. Under my 200# ass it feels so much better than anything else ever has, not to mention that it has almost a 90 degree turning radius, (doesn't the shiver has close to that also Jm?) compared to the Boxxer's 45degrees with the stock bumpers on the stanchions.
    Tony
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    Turns out that five years of not mountain biking, really makes one strive to get back to it.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by .WestCoastHucker.
    woohoo!!!!

    go get him, Jm


    ps- i used to have a boxxer too. it was the flexiest, most untunable damping (unless you call stiction some kind of damping), tons-o-maintenence needing piece of bicycle junk i've owned. i couldn't re-sell it fast enough.
    Mmm....Monster T, right WestCoast! I too used to have a Boxxer, and although mine was pretty much brand new when I got rid of it I like my Monster 50x better than Boxxer.
    Tony
    is making a comeback.

    Turns out that five years of not mountain biking, really makes one strive to get back to it.

  19. #19
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    I think I might have figured it out....

    Quote Originally Posted by Jm.
    Yep, it felt like it was trying to break my wrists off at northstar. Any time that I tried to pick up speed, it felt horrible, it was pretty hard just to hang onto my bike at that speed. My Jr T gave me a similer feeling, and this is not a big suprise, both the Jr T and the boxxer have a similer damping system.

    I notice these things. It's pretty lame to say that "I ride faster than every one else", but just as an example, I hosted a ride here last week with some canadians, and one of the trails went down the side of a mountain. It wasn't the craziest descent ever, nor was it super technical, but there were some pretty fast sections, and you basically got going REAL fast. One of the comments I heard from one of the guys that at least before going down this thought his fork was real plush and well balanced was; wow, I noticed my fork packing up at speed big time. This was a Z3 with the "SSV" damping, similer to what boxxers have. He may have been feeling "packing up", or it may have just been spiking, either way it's a result of the damping system not being able to react fast enough or too much fluid trying to be forced through a fixed-diameter hole. This is the shortcomming of this damping system and the problem with the boxxer. There are no "shims" to provide a conrolled blowoff of damping fluid like cartridge forks have. This guy never thought his fork had any kind of problem though untill he went down this hill and tried to keep up with me. It wasn't that he was a bad rider, in fact this guy was from the northshore and I suspect he could drop a lot better than me, but I was a lot better suited to hauling at high speed on the trails.

    People who buy a Jr T, boxxer, or other SSV fork as their "first" real DH fork think it's the best thing they've ever used. Truely it is pretty lame to make fun of people and say that their fork sucks, but once you've tried the "next level" you realize their shortcommings, or maybe you stumble upon them in your day to day riding (as this guy did), but it is no doubt pretty hard to know what suspension "should" be like when you have a limited perception, as I did back in 1999 when I bought my first boxxer. The flow control problems are directly related to the design of the damper. The older boxxers had almost no rebound control and the ajusters did nothing, why? It is simple, because the SSV type damper is essentially a hole that the fluid has to move through. Since there are no shims that flex like in a cartridge damper(high end marzocchis, all foxes, even manitou TPC works on the same basic principle), the fluid is forced to flow through a fixed-diameter hole. The old boxxer didn't have spiking problems because rockshox made the holes big enough that it eliminiated that possibility. The tradeoff though was that you couldn't "ajust" the damping because if you had a range of ajustment that would actually affect the fork's damping, it would cause the spiking problem and you'd be back to square one. So the forks simple came with inneffective controls, and damping that at the best, "barely worked".

    In 03 they got better, but they ran into the spiking problem again. They increased the range of damping control, but since the oil was flowing through smaller holes (also notice the oil weight decreased from max of 30 weight to a max of 5 weight), it was now subceptible to spiking again, and people had to drill out their cartridges.

    I am giving you the "simple" explaination of the ported damper, and compared to the Jr T the boxxer's IS more advanced, but it still runs into and suffers from many of the same problems. When I rode it, I could feel it. My 03 did feel different than my 99 one did, and when you sit down and logically work this out, it all falls into place. Lighter weight damping fluid means that to get the same effective(or more) damping range, it has to flow through smaller holes, which brings the possibility of spiking in.

    Rockshox didn't have this figured out in 1998 when they brought the boxxer to the market, nor do they really have it figured out now. The fork works ok (for the team and WC models), and it is pretty lightweight, but it's like trying to design the ultimate drum brake, no matter how you bake it, it is still outdated and obsolete technology.

    I rode the boxxer long enough to know it's sortcommings, a good day of DH, quite a few good trail rider(with descents on the way back), even an oil change to what was "supposed" to be the newest, latests and greatest oil weight for the 03 boxxer- and it was pretty easy to see how lacking the fork was, especially compared to the rest of the bike. Previously, I had ridden northstar with my Stratos S8. There was absolutely no comparrission, the S8 blew away the boxxer, even though it was around 3-4lbs heavier, it just worked so much better and didn't give me the "im trying to break your wrists off" feeling. Now I ride a shiver, it's about 1.5lbs ligher than the stratos and works every bit as good, maybe a little better. It isn't perfect, I'd probably rather have an 888 or even a dual-cartridge super T, but it is pretty darn good and worlds better than the boxxer will ever be if they stick to the same damping system. This is not to mention any of the other DH forks that I've had, just a quick and dirty comparission between the fork I had on there before.

    Not to mention that on top of this, rockshox still hasn't figured out how to seal their fork properly. Maybe the 04s are better, but the 03s still suffered from blown seals pretty frequently.

    You asked a "loaded" question to start out with, and it takes a long time to write a resposne like this, so I'd rather just give the quick and dirty of it like I did above. Too many times though people take the attitude of "oh, well you didn't tune your boxxer right", or "well, boxxers work good for ME"...etc...
    Thanks for the lengthy, in depth reply. That sounds logical and I respect your opinion. Although I did want to clarify that I am not a newbie to bikes, just to multi thousand dollar downhill machines and state of the art suspension technology. I've been riding BMX bikes since I was 3 y.o., I ripped around on a rigid mtn. bike until 1998 when I got my first full suspension. That being said...

    JM I think you hit the nail on the head.....when you said you were riding with your friend from the northshore who wasnt used to riding with as much raw speed as you, but perhaps an even better technical/freerider than you, it made me think.....

    I think the terrain and types of riding available on much of the west coast, with the exception of the northwest and canada, is different than that found in the northeast. The boxxer might be better suited for east coast type terrain thereby making it more favorably looked at. That is, on the west coast, most of the riding is on hardpacked, fairly wide, singletrack that is usally dusty or poreous. There are a few rocks here and there and some roots if your lucky, but overall it's about going fast. For example: mammoth/northstar/keystone/telluride. Whereas on the east coast, it's a lot muddier rather than dusty/poreaous, a SH#Tload more rocks, WAAAAAY steeper and people arent riding with as much speed b/c it's soooooooooo much more tight and technical. Now if I could just find a way to test my hypothesis with the scientific method.......

    Before I get a bunch of responses from west coast people pissed off for saying the riding there isnt as technical, steep or rocky....I just want to say, if you havent ridden your bike at Plattekill, Sunday River(R.I.P.), West, Bolton Valley or Bromont, then you have no frame of reference for what I'm talking about. I love to ride, and the west coast is a blast, but it's just another level of riding in the northeast. Basically, a northeast weenie could move out to CA and be considered a tough guy. For example, You know the sections of various trails out west that are usually called, "rock gardens"? Well, in the NE every trail is like that from top to bottom! The trails are so steep that you dont even have the option of getting off your bike and walking if you get in over your head, you just have to commit and ride it out. It's basically like compairing the steepest ski slopes, let's say....I dont know, squaw for example. Lot's of steeps right? Were talking sustained 35-40 degree slopes. Now compare that to the Chugiach mtn. range of alaska or Chamonix in france! Stuff so steep you dont even know how snow sticks to it! That's the best analogy I can think of to express the difference between east/west coast downhill riding. Anyone else ridden both coasts here wanna back me up on this?

  20. #20
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    I think I might have figured it out....

    Quote Originally Posted by Jm.
    Yep, it felt like it was trying to break my wrists off at northstar. Any time that I tried to pick up speed, it felt horrible, it was pretty hard just to hang onto my bike at that speed. My Jr T gave me a similer feeling, and this is not a big suprise, both the Jr T and the boxxer have a similer damping system.

    I notice these things. It's pretty lame to say that "I ride faster than every one else", but just as an example, I hosted a ride here last week with some canadians, and one of the trails went down the side of a mountain. It wasn't the craziest descent ever, nor was it super technical, but there were some pretty fast sections, and you basically got going REAL fast. One of the comments I heard from one of the guys that at least before going down this thought his fork was real plush and well balanced was; wow, I noticed my fork packing up at speed big time. This was a Z3 with the "SSV" damping, similer to what boxxers have. He may have been feeling "packing up", or it may have just been spiking, either way it's a result of the damping system not being able to react fast enough or too much fluid trying to be forced through a fixed-diameter hole. This is the shortcomming of this damping system and the problem with the boxxer. There are no "shims" to provide a conrolled blowoff of damping fluid like cartridge forks have. This guy never thought his fork had any kind of problem though untill he went down this hill and tried to keep up with me. It wasn't that he was a bad rider, in fact this guy was from the northshore and I suspect he could drop a lot better than me, but I was a lot better suited to hauling at high speed on the trails.

    People who buy a Jr T, boxxer, or other SSV fork as their "first" real DH fork think it's the best thing they've ever used. Truely it is pretty lame to make fun of people and say that their fork sucks, but once you've tried the "next level" you realize their shortcommings, or maybe you stumble upon them in your day to day riding (as this guy did), but it is no doubt pretty hard to know what suspension "should" be like when you have a limited perception, as I did back in 1999 when I bought my first boxxer. The flow control problems are directly related to the design of the damper. The older boxxers had almost no rebound control and the ajusters did nothing, why? It is simple, because the SSV type damper is essentially a hole that the fluid has to move through. Since there are no shims that flex like in a cartridge damper(high end marzocchis, all foxes, even manitou TPC works on the same basic principle), the fluid is forced to flow through a fixed-diameter hole. The old boxxer didn't have spiking problems because rockshox made the holes big enough that it eliminiated that possibility. The tradeoff though was that you couldn't "ajust" the damping because if you had a range of ajustment that would actually affect the fork's damping, it would cause the spiking problem and you'd be back to square one. So the forks simple came with inneffective controls, and damping that at the best, "barely worked".

    In 03 they got better, but they ran into the spiking problem again. They increased the range of damping control, but since the oil was flowing through smaller holes (also notice the oil weight decreased from max of 30 weight to a max of 5 weight), it was now subceptible to spiking again, and people had to drill out their cartridges.

    I am giving you the "simple" explaination of the ported damper, and compared to the Jr T the boxxer's IS more advanced, but it still runs into and suffers from many of the same problems. When I rode it, I could feel it. My 03 did feel different than my 99 one did, and when you sit down and logically work this out, it all falls into place. Lighter weight damping fluid means that to get the same effective(or more) damping range, it has to flow through smaller holes, which brings the possibility of spiking in.

    Rockshox didn't have this figured out in 1998 when they brought the boxxer to the market, nor do they really have it figured out now. The fork works ok (for the team and WC models), and it is pretty lightweight, but it's like trying to design the ultimate drum brake, no matter how you bake it, it is still outdated and obsolete technology.

    I rode the boxxer long enough to know it's sortcommings, a good day of DH, quite a few good trail rider(with descents on the way back), even an oil change to what was "supposed" to be the newest, latests and greatest oil weight for the 03 boxxer- and it was pretty easy to see how lacking the fork was, especially compared to the rest of the bike. Previously, I had ridden northstar with my Stratos S8. There was absolutely no comparrission, the S8 blew away the boxxer, even though it was around 3-4lbs heavier, it just worked so much better and didn't give me the "im trying to break your wrists off" feeling. Now I ride a shiver, it's about 1.5lbs ligher than the stratos and works every bit as good, maybe a little better. It isn't perfect, I'd probably rather have an 888 or even a dual-cartridge super T, but it is pretty darn good and worlds better than the boxxer will ever be if they stick to the same damping system. This is not to mention any of the other DH forks that I've had, just a quick and dirty comparission between the fork I had on there before.

    Not to mention that on top of this, rockshox still hasn't figured out how to seal their fork properly. Maybe the 04s are better, but the 03s still suffered from blown seals pretty frequently.

    You asked a "loaded" question to start out with, and it takes a long time to write a resposne like this, so I'd rather just give the quick and dirty of it like I did above. Too many times though people take the attitude of "oh, well you didn't tune your boxxer right", or "well, boxxers work good for ME"...etc...
    Thanks for the lengthy, in depth reply. That sounds logical and I respect your opinion. Although I did want to clarify that I am not a newbie to bikes, just to multi thousand dollar downhill machines and state of the art suspension technology. I've been riding BMX bikes since I was 3 y.o., I ripped around on a rigid mtn. bike until 1998 when I got my first full suspension. That being said...

    JM I think you hit the nail on the head.....when you said you were riding with your friend from the northshore who wasnt used to riding with as much raw speed as you, but perhaps an even better technical/freerider than you, it made me think.....

    I think the terrain and types of riding available on much of the west coast, with the exception of the northwest and canada, is different than that found in the northeast. The boxxer might be better suited for east coast type terrain thereby making it more favorably looked at. That is, on the west coast, most of the riding is on hardpacked, fairly wide, singletrack that is usally dusty or poreous. There are a few rocks here and there and some roots if your lucky, but overall it's about going fast. For example: mammoth/northstar/keystone/telluride. Whereas on the east coast, it's a lot muddier rather than dusty/poreaous, a SH#Tload more rocks, WAAAAAY steeper and people arent riding with as much speed b/c it's soooooooooo much more tight and technical. Now if I could just find a way to test my hypothesis with the scientific method.......

    Before I get a bunch of responses from west coast people pissed off for saying the riding there isnt as technical, steep or rocky....I just want to say, if you havent ridden your bike at Plattekill, Sunday River(R.I.P.), West, Bolton Valley or Bromont, then you have no frame of reference for what I'm talking about. I love to ride, and the west coast is a blast, but it's just another level of riding in the northeast. Basically, a northeast weenie could move out to CA and be considered a tough guy. For example, You know the sections of various trails out west that are usually called, "rock gardens"? Well, in the NE every trail is like that from top to bottom! The trails are so steep that you dont even have the option of getting off your bike and walking if you get in over your head, you just have to commit and ride it out. It's basically like compairing the steepest ski slopes, let's say....I dont know, squaw for example. Lot's of steeps right? Were talking sustained 35-40 degree slopes. Now compare that to the Chugiach mtn. range of alaska or Chamonix in france! Stuff so steep you dont even know how snow sticks to it! That's the best analogy I can think of to express the difference between east/west coast downhill riding. Anyone else ridden both coasts here wanna back me up on this?

  21. #21
    Jm.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigBill
    For example, You know the sections of various trails out west that are usually called, "rock gardens"? Well, in the NE every trail is like that from top to bottom! The trails are so steep that you dont even have the option of getting off your bike and walking if you get in over your head, you just have to commit and ride it out. It's basically like compairing the steepest ski slopes, let's say....I dont know, squaw for example. Lot's of steeps right? Were talking sustained 35-40 degree slopes. Now compare that to the Chugiach mtn. range of alaska or Chamonix in france! Stuff so steep you dont even know how snow sticks to it! That's the best analogy I can think of to express the difference between east/west coast downhill riding. Anyone else ridden both coasts here wanna back me up on this?
    I think you'd be surprised by Northstar and South Mountain, heck south mountain redefines "rock garden", it's all rock, the whole way down, and it's super steep, lots of dropoffs, lots of places to get hung up, super steep switchbacks(even ones with drops thrown in to the middle for good measure). I won't say that either is better, tougher, or more technical. I just thought that the BC guy might be able to drop better than me maybe (I do a LOT of dropping anyhow). I would say that on the east AND west coast, you can find stuff that is going to be ultra-tought, if you know where to look. Good luck trying to even hike up the waterfall at northstar or holbert at south mountain.

    There's too many pre-conceived notions, for both sides.

  22. #22
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    bill good riders exist everywhere regardless of terrain. if the east coast is superior, why dont you post some pics of you killing it ? this is a forum so i say put up or shut up. i bet i can post pix of just colorado riders and show a thing or two you cant do. and dont even let me get started on the california scene. it blows the northeast away. period. and bc is waaaay tougher. and virgin, utah (mike wilson and josh bender and co. would rip the northeast a new ahole). ive never even seen some decent dj photos from the northeast. so show me the money or shut up with the long winded double posts.

    ps enough with the plattelkille this and that. whatever. if you ask me, you can have the boxxer and plattekille all to yourself. ill stick with marzocchi and anywhere out west where whiny biatches stay home and watch the kids. oh why dont you try out your east coast tought guy theory and move to cali? were talking the next brian lopes right?
    Last edited by dream4est; 03-26-2004 at 11:28 PM.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by dream4est
    bill good riders exist everywhere regardless of terrain. if the east coast is superior, why dont you post some pics of you killing it ? this is a forum so i say put up or shut up. i bet i can post pix of just colorado riders and show a thing or two you cant do. and dont even let me get started on the california scene. it blows the northeast away. period. and bc is waaaay tougher. and virgin, utah (mike wilson and josh bender and co. would rip the northeast a new ahole). ive never even seen some decent dj photos from the northeast. so show me the money or shut up with the long winded double posts.

    ps enough with the plattelkille this and that. whatever. if you ask me, you can have the boxxer and plattekille all to yourself. ill stick with marzocchi and anywhere out west where whiny biatches stay home and watch the kids. oh why dont you try out your east coast tought guy theory and move to cali? were talking the next brian lopes right?
    You tell him Mark!!! lol,
    btw, I can't wait...I almost have my hardtail done(or atleast half done ) right now I've got a mk2 On-One Gimp, FSA Pig headset, Haro bmx cranks, Azonic Fusion Magnesium pedals, Velo kevlar seat, mystery brand seatpost...
    my friend's letting my borrow some tires, and a rear wheel right now, and another friend is letting me borrow a exr comp fork...yea its a piece of sh*t but it'll hold up for a while. Hopefully it'll be up and running when you guys come down here. I rode palmer park af ew days ago and it was sweet! later,
    Tony
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    Turns out that five years of not mountain biking, really makes one strive to get back to it.

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    ney tony. nice drop photo from last week. nice 10 footer. pretty good for 15 years old. i think you may be ready for plattekille. no wait that place is for pros only. sorry you will just have to come up to boulder and ride my new trails. i cant come down now becasue im getting a 03 iron horse sgs dh pro frame with new swinger shock. i need to work on my trails. you should come up with sprocket and hit them and our dirt jumps. bring your boxxer and your east coast balls though!!!

    tony i saw a 2003 dj2 for 140 shipped. here the link.

    http://marketplace.consumerreview.co...id=68787&query
    Last edited by dream4est; 03-26-2004 at 11:46 PM.

  25. #25
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    Read the whole post next time dummy...

    Quote Originally Posted by dream4est
    bill good riders exist everywhere regardless of terrain. if the east coast is superior, why dont you post some pics of you killing it ? this is a forum so i say put up or shut up. i bet i can post pix of just colorado riders and show a thing or two you cant do. and dont even let me get started on the california scene. it blows the northeast away. period. and bc is waaaay tougher. and virgin, utah (mike wilson and josh bender and co. would rip the northeast a new ahole). ive never even seen some decent dj photos from the northeast. so show me the money or shut up with the long winded double posts.

    ps enough with the plattelkille this and that. whatever. if you ask me, you can have the boxxer and plattekille all to yourself. ill stick with marzocchi and anywhere out west where whiny biatches stay home and watch the kids. oh why dont you try out your east coast tought guy theory and move to cali? were talking the next brian lopes right?
    Your taking what I did say entirely out of context, AND assuming I said a lot that I didnt! You obviously didnt read everything I wrote or you would know that I AM FROM THE WEST COAST, CALIFORNIA TO BE SPECIFIC. And I agree with you there is good riding and good riders everywhere, I'm just commenting specifically on the ski resorts that offer bike haul in the summer time and why I think the differences in terrain might require a different fork. I'm not talking about the local stashes you and your good buddy bender shuttle on the wknds with your $1500-2000 forks. What's more, I don't claim to be a pro level rider either..in fact im fairly average. LIke my signature says, I THOUGHT I WAS GOOD, but then I came out east and rode plattekille. Lastly, until you have ridden the northeast, don't talk about it cuz you just dont know.

  26. #26
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    Yeah I know, I'm really embarassed about it too...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jm.
    Well it made you look pretty idiotic. Not only for what you said, but the whole point of the post i made over there in the weight section was about why I thought that it was NOT going to be possible to build a decent freeride bike up at the weight that he wanted, not with the frame and the fork that he wanted.
    The last thing I wanted to do was look idiotic in a mountain bike forum....OMG, there all gonna laugh at me....What do I do? How do I fix it?

    Lighten up JM.....

  27. #27
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    Basically, a northeast weenie could move out to CA and be considered a tough guy.
    Lastly, until you have ridden the northeast, don't talk about it cuz you just dont know.


    hey you said it big bill not me. i consider that first line total bs, especially after having to wade through paragraph after paragraph of your butt kissing bs regarding east coast riding and the boxxer. jm hit the nail on the head about the boxxer. i know that east coast is all gnar and **** but if a northeast weenie came to my neck of the woods he would not hit one of our practice jumps. and as far as posting pix post pix of northeast weenies then. i wanna see them killing it. your rant on boxxers and east coast terrain holds no real merit. its just YOUR OPINION bro.

  28. #28
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    What's your IQ?

    Quote Originally Posted by dream4est
    Basically, a northeast weenie could move out to CA and be considered a tough guy.
    Lastly, until you have ridden the northeast, don't talk about it cuz you just dont know.


    hey you said it big bill not me. i consider that first line total bs, especially after having to wade through paragraph after paragraph of your butt kissing bs regarding east coast riding and the boxxer. jm hit the nail on the head about the boxxer. i know that east coast is all gnar and **** but if a northeast weenie came to my neck of the woods he would not hit one of our practice jumps. and as far as posting pix post pix of northeast weenies then. i wanna see them killing it. your rant on boxxers and east coast terrain holds no real merit. its just YOUR OPINION bro.
    Butt kissing?
    Jumps?
    Testosterone laiden, macho man, "Im better than you" attitude....
    What are you talking about?

    I would elaborate more, explaining to you why what you are writing is utterly irrelevant and off topic, but I see this dialogue is HOPELESS. Are you a kid perhaps? What's your age?
    OH to heck with this BS, I'm going riding....................

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by dream4est
    ney tony. nice drop photo from last week. nice 10 footer. pretty good for 15 years old. i think you may be ready for plattekille. no wait that place is for pros only. sorry you will just have to come up to boulder and ride my new trails. i cant come down now becasue im getting a 03 iron horse sgs dh pro frame with new swinger shock. i need to work on my trails. you should come up with sprocket and hit them and our dirt jumps. bring your boxxer and your east coast balls though!!!

    tony i saw a 2003 dj2 for 140 shipped. here the link.

    http://marketplace.consumerreview.co...id=68787&query
    Sweet! Are you gonna sell your Stab then? Thanks for the headsup on the fork, I think I'm gonna try to get some other parts first, I found a brand new wheelset of alex dm24s for 100 shipped, so I think i'll probably do that first and then maybe find an old marzocchi z-series or a manitou black somewhere. I'll try to headup to Boulder soon but I don't know if I'll be able to...later,
    Tony
    Tony
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    Turns out that five years of not mountain biking, really makes one strive to get back to it.

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    Boxxer; Boooooooo!

    Don't make my mistake. last summer I was building a DH/FR bike on the cheap and got suckered in by the price of a boxxer race.
    Jm. hit the nail on the head in describing the problems. It really does feel like the boxxer race is trying to break my wrists off, esp. at high speeds going over small to med rocks. The fork is ok on more rolling stuff, small to med drops and at slower speed as long as the rock/bump etc is not too sharp edged.
    I hav not ridden any other DH forks but my XC/trail bike has a vanilla 125 up front and that fork is soooo much better. if it weren't for the steep head angle on that bike (which kept trying to kill me at DH speeds) I would probably prefer the 5" of vanilla travel to the 7" of boxxer on anything other than drops over 3 feet.

    as soon as i save the $ for the price diff between selling my boxxer and getting a super t I am there. I should have sucked up and paid the diff up front and been better off in the long run.

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    lol this is funny stuff, when you get a boxxer it takes some tuning, i have an 03 Team been riding it for about a year and it's the best fork i've been on * and i've been on pretty much all of them* *not including dorado btw ;p* it's all opinions here some like em, some dont, some have no issues, some do it's a toss up with any fork you buy blackbox kit the boxxer out of the bag and it'll feel 100 times better.

  32. #32
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    Do people realize that the Marzocchi equivalent of the Boxxer Race is the Jr. T? RS made the Boxxer cheaper to be able to compete with the Jr. T

    99-02 Boxxers and the 03 Team & World Cup would be equivalent to the Super T.

    Complaining about the high speed performace of the Race is silly, it is an inexpensive fork. The Jr. T has similar issues.

    The seals on my Boxxer last me more than a year, although I do keep the stanction and seals clean. I also do an oil change about 2 or 3 times a year.

  33. #33
    Jm.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CraigH
    Do people realize that the Marzocchi equivalent of the Boxxer Race is the Jr. T? RS made the Boxxer cheaper to be able to compete with the Jr. T

    99-02 Boxxers and the 03 Team & World Cup would be equivalent to the Super T.

    Complaining about the high speed performace of the Race is silly, it is an inexpensive fork. The Jr. T has similar issues.

    The seals on my Boxxer last me more than a year, although I do keep the stanction and seals clean. I also do an oil change about 2 or 3 times a year.
    Here's the problem though, the boxxer WC is the equivalent of the JR T as well. The boxxer race may be price-wise the same as the Jr T, but the boxxer world cup has the same kind of dampers as the Jr T.

    As to which is better..boxxer or Jr T....I dont know...the both tried to break my wrists off

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by CraigH
    The seals on my Boxxer last me more than a year, although I do keep the stanction and seals clean. I also do an oil change about 2 or 3 times a year.
    same here..

  35. #35
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    I run a 2002 Boxxer. I bought it used for $200. More often than not it gets me to the Sport DH podium. I'll run it in Expert soon. It's light and stiff and doesn't leak. If you really need more than that, buy more than that, but why bash it? Bash, bash bash....who cares.

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    Just a few things!

    First, I have owned and ridden a high end fork from every major manufacturer out there. Presently I own a 2001 Boxxer and a 2001 Manitou X-Vert Carbon. I will say this about the two. There is no damping on the Boxxer. I have tried turning the adjustment every which way and it doesn't make a damn bit of difference. I feel no change in damping. When you push on it in the parking lot, it springs back like a rocket. You would expect that it would bounce all over the place on the trail. However, it doesn't. It still feels nice on the trail, although I would love to be able to adjust it for different conditions. The Manitou is by far the plushest fork I have ever owned. It is virtually mantenance free.

    Second, I live in California and have ridden many East Coast trails including Plattekill. I wouldn't say that either coast is anymore difficult than the other.....just different. On the East Coast trails are a lot slower, but often more technical a fewer jumps. Here on the West Coast it is all about speed and big air. The trails are super fast and often have whole rythm sections of jumps. Maybe it is because BMX is so big with kids here. If you come from the east, you may find it a big adjustment when the trail brings you screaming towards a series of 10 to 20 foot gap jumps. If you are from the West, you may have trouble getting used to wet slippery muddy rocks and roots......and you'll probably be sick of riding in the rain.

    So enough of this contoversy already. The best riders are the ones that have experience riding in all conditions. Travel and ride lots of trails.

  37. #37
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    I don't know about that.

    I own both a 99 & a 02 Boxxer and I never get the spiking issues at Whistler all of the Jr.T owners complain about.

    In fact I own a 01 Jr.T that came with my wife's Bullit, but I've never ridden it.

  38. #38
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    Exactly, I'm glad somebody here can read!

    Quote Originally Posted by sddhrider
    First, I have owned and ridden a high end fork from every major manufacturer out there. Presently I own a 2001 Boxxer and a 2001 Manitou X-Vert Carbon. I will say this about the two. There is no damping on the Boxxer. I have tried turning the adjustment every which way and it doesn't make a damn bit of difference. I feel no change in damping. When you push on it in the parking lot, it springs back like a rocket. You would expect that it would bounce all over the place on the trail. However, it doesn't. It still feels nice on the trail, although I would love to be able to adjust it for different conditions. The Manitou is by far the plushest fork I have ever owned. It is virtually mantenance free.

    Second, I live in California and have ridden many East Coast trails including Plattekill. I wouldn't say that either coast is anymore difficult than the other.....just different. On the East Coast trails are a lot slower, but often more technical a fewer jumps. Here on the West Coast it is all about speed and big air. The trails are super fast and often have whole rythm sections of jumps. Maybe it is because BMX is so big with kids here. If you come from the east, you may find it a big adjustment when the trail brings you screaming towards a series of 10 to 20 foot gap jumps. If you are from the West, you may have trouble getting used to wet slippery muddy rocks and roots......and you'll probably be sick of riding in the rain.

    So enough of this contoversy already. The best riders are the ones that have experience riding in all conditions. Travel and ride lots of trails.

    Yah man, that's exactly what I was trying to say! The riding terrain is completely different. But then everyone jumped on me and said I was bashing on the west coast and putting words in my mouth. I never said the west was week, it's just different. Dry, dusty, fast, rolling and open vs. wet, muddy, slow, steep and technical. If you are riding west coast type terrain your chances of being unhappy with the boxxer are greater than if your riding east coast terrain. I'm glad somebody can read!!!!

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    East Coast

    Ya, coming from the east coast (virginia) I totally agree with what everybody has said the two different riding styles. But just to lighten things up a bit I thought I'd post a pic from the east coast



    ^It's East africa, but same idea right Oh ya, about the boxxer, I didn't actually even get a boxxer until I moved here so I can't say much about the roots and wet conditions. But I will tell you this, I've never had a problem with my boxxer. There are some of the most rock laden trails in the world here and I come out feeling great (unless I take a spill). Time after time the boxxer keeps giving and makes up for my n00bish DH skillz. I've tried to marz forks, they're nice, but at half the price, I'll take the boxxer...

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