DH Disc Brakes - SAINT vs HOPE- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    DH Disc Brakes - SAINT vs HOPE

    Hi Guys!

    I need new brakes which offer both good modulation and power (currently run Juicy 5's) I considered Codes/Code 5's but have experienced that Avid levers "squeak" after a few months and the brakes also develop a "spongy" feel after a while (Juicy and Codes)

    This leaves me with the following options.....Saints or Hopes (M4 or V2)

    If you choose a HOPE system would you recommend, the 2 pot V2 or 4 pot M4 and WHY??? Ive read a lot of "theories" about 4 pot vs 2 pot...what do you guys say?

    Additional info - I weigh 172 pounds (78kgs).

    Your help will be appreciated....im stuck at a crossroads!!!

  2. #2
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    I am using M810 Saint brakes and they are absolutely awesome. I am much heavier than you and I have all the power and modulation I need. Previously I used Formula The One and to be honest I find 09 Saints are much better.

  3. #3
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    the new Saints....purely sex......

    smooth, good modulation, insane stopping power
    the trick is ENJOYING YOUR LIFE EACH DAY, don't waste them away wishing for better days

  4. #4
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    Hi,
    I went from Moto V2īs (floating disc) to 810 Saintīs. more power, less fading, better modulation, less maintanance and less pad-wear (but spendy pads by the way). In fact the only comparison Hope wins by a large margin is look (its beautiful cnc machining looks smarter than a Thomson Stem or Hadley hub). The new brakes are the best "complete package" I have ever used by a large margin (out of M6 Ti, M4, Mini, Moto V2, Juicy 7, Code and Oro the one). If you go Hope I would recomend the V2 over the M4 (better fading resistance, more power, less maintanance).

  5. #5
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    another factor....easier to get Saint brake parts then others
    the trick is ENJOYING YOUR LIFE EACH DAY, don't waste them away wishing for better days

  6. #6
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    Honestly mate, thats a loaded gun question here. At that price point pretty much all brakes will do what you ask for. Saints, Hopes, Codes, the ones, etc. They will all stop you insanely quick, have good modulation and all require some maintenance at some point.

    Its going to be a question of what you like more and what costs what you want to pay including replacement parts (pads, broken levers, etc). Whatever you chose is going to be good for sure

  7. #7
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    i agree swaussie. While i have never ridden saints i wouldn't hesitate if offered. But Hopes are also drop dead sexy

  8. #8
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    Saints and Hope's both bleed just like moto/car brakes, but the parts for a Hope will probably be a ton more expensive.

    Used the Formula Mega's (basically the One's) for a while, and went to the Saints. Not looking back. The Oro series is still excellent though.
    805

  9. #9
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    Another vote for the saints. I just put some on my non dh sanction and all i have to say is wow!! im getting way to ballsy with these on just a 6" bike! Great brakes that is for sure.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by cwrender
    Hi,
    I went from Moto V2īs (floating disc) to 810 Saintīs. more power, less fading, better modulation, less maintanance and less pad-wear (but spendy pads by the way). In fact the only comparison Hope wins by a large margin is look (its beautiful cnc machining looks smarter than a Thomson Stem or Hadley hub). The new brakes are the best "complete package" I have ever used by a large margin (out of M6 Ti, M4, Mini, Moto V2, Juicy 7, Code and Oro the one). If you go Hope I would recomend the V2 over the M4 (better fading resistance, more power, less maintanance).
    What do you mean less maintenance on the Saints?

  11. #11
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    how about the new avid elixer brakes? I have heard good things about them and some of the pros run them, so they can't be too shabby.

  12. #12
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    I am kind of curious as to what people expect at this price point: I have not tried a set of Saints so I shall pass no comment but I run a set of Hope's M4 back and front on 203mm rotors and at 200ibs and on loose rubble and stones, often reaching speeds around 40mph, all I need to know is that my brakes are gonna stop me and stop me when I tell them to; and in that respect the M4's do their job - over and over again on multiple decents (sometimes reaching over 1km in distance). Of course good tyres help.

    As for servicing, then I do not find Hope bits expensive and often their service department will send you small stuff for free and when it comes to bleeding their brakes, I could not ask for an easier one person operation.. so again, I am a little curious as to what people really want or why their score points over other makes that are in all honest all as good as each other give or take the odd personal choices here or there.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by swaussie
    how about the new avid elixer brakes? I have heard good things about them and some of the pros run them, so they can't be too shabby.
    I want to try any system other than Avid. I currently have Juicy 5's and my mates have Code 5's and both sets developed an irritating squeak and a spongy feel. I dont want another set of Avids thats going to do this so I started looking around and ultimately my choice came down to the V2's or Saints!

    But I still dont know which set to get!

  14. #14
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    Seriously take a look at Magura brakes. I swear by them, they have served me well for many many years, have them on all my bikes.... Once set up, leave them be and they go on an on an on like the breaka breaka dawn....
    The_Lecht_Rocks: whafe - cheeers - may i offer an official apology for the wagon wheeler "dis-belief"

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigHit888
    I want to try any system other than Avid. I currently have Juicy 5's and my mates have Code 5's and both sets developed an irritating squeak and a spongy feel. I dont want another set of Avids thats going to do this so I started looking around and ultimately my choice came down to the V2's or Saints!

    But I still dont know which set to get!
    Dude, toss a coin or go with what you like best. Both those brakes will impress the hell out if you if you are using crappy juicy 5's at the moment!

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by swaussie
    how about the new avid elixer brakes? I have heard good things about them and some of the pros run them, so they can't be too shabby.
    I would run cantilever brakes if someone was paying me. who cares what sam hill or the syndicate team run they get paid to run those sram products and have a team of techs that keep them going. I like a lot of sram products but I hate Avid brakes, they work well but are a pain in the ass to even change the pads on them.

    I have the old saints. I love shimano brakes they are soooo easy to work on the pots push back nice and easy when its time to change the pads, they are really easy to bleed and not to mention they are rugged. I know a few people still using the old XT 4 piston brakes brakes now theyve had them on like 4 bikes by now.

    I have worked on or bled almost all the major brake companies out there. but now that I think about it I havent messed or ridden the hopes so.....

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by spxoo
    I would run cantilever brakes if someone was paying me. who cares what sam hill or the syndicate team run they get paid to run those sram products and have a team of techs that keep them going. I like a lot of sram products but I hate Avid brakes, they work well but are a pain in the ass to even change the pads on them.

    .
    Well with that reasoning should we also think Boxxer Blackbox forks are only on their bikes because they are paid to run them, as with their shocks, tyres, etc??

    I doubt Peaty or Hill would run rubbish brakes/forks/shocks even if they were paid to do it. I would assume these guys run pretty much what is the best for them to win on in a world class competition. If Elixer brakes can stop Steve Peat or Sam Hill then they sure as hell can stop you or me. And they have mechanics because they are professionals. It doesnt take a rocket scientist to bleed brakes but they have people do it for them so they can focus on more important stuff between runs.

  18. #18
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    Peaty and the like wouldn't be riding bikes at all if not for sponsors. They ride the brakes that their sponsors provide, end of.

  19. #19
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    I don't know about the parts on Hope being so much more expensive than Shimano, especially taking into account the fact that one can't rebuild a Shimano. Hope offers seals and pistons and other parts and they are really cheap. They make their systems to be investments that can be rebuilt inexpensively for prevention or repair.

    As far as the fade resistance on the V2, I don't know about that. While I think other brakes can have good fade resistance, any brake, when used enough, can fade, although trying to do mountain descents dragging my V2/Vented, I couldn't get them to fade or even pump up. And they all have floating rotors. The difference is they offer two sizes of solid rotors, and one vented.

    However, the Shimano stuff is quite good. The problem I would have is when there's any problem, the part has to be replaced, and they change stuff enough that it would likely end up in purchasing a new brakeset.

    Bleeding on Hope and Shimano is a plus.

    Why not throw Gustavs into the mix?

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by honourablegeorge
    Peaty and the like wouldn't be riding bikes at all if not for sponsors. They ride the brakes that their sponsors provide, end of.
    And he wins world cups with them. Along with dudes like Sam Hill, and Greg Minnar. Nothing wrong with Avid brakes, sounds like the crummy Juicy's need a bleed. All brakes will require a bleed at some point, that isn't a reason to discount an entire brand. Fun fact I thought everyone already knew, Juicy's are more Formula brakes than Avid, that's who designed them for SRAM. I've currently got Elixers on my DH bike and they are quite impressive.

    IME Saint brakes are extremely powerful and a tad bit touchy. The last pair I rode felt almost too touchy to achieve good modulation but I didn't have a lot of time to get used to them. I wouldn't hesitate from purchasing a set if I found a deal, at the moment though they are waaaaaay too pricey compared to the competition for me to consider. Cannot comment on the Hopes, never used them.
    Bike good, work bad.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by swaussie
    Well with that reasoning should we also think Boxxer Blackbox forks are only on their bikes because they are paid to run them, as with their shocks, tyres, etc??

    I doubt Peaty or Hill would run rubbish brakes/forks/shocks even if they were paid to do it. I would assume these guys run pretty much what is the best for them to win on in a world class competition. If Elixer brakes can stop Steve Peat or Sam Hill then they sure as hell can stop you or me. And they have mechanics because they are professionals. It doesnt take a rocket scientist to bleed brakes but they have people do it for them so they can focus on more important stuff between runs.
    +1, Just like how they use what tires they want sponsored or not.
    "Ride Life Ride Giant"

  22. #22
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    Keep in mind those guys are fastest down the hill because they use less brakes than us mere mortals, maybe elixirs are all they need...

  23. #23
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    I haven't spent enough time on the V2 to offer a comparison, and I've ridden the old m4 enough to say that I prefer a brake with a bit more power at the sacrifice of modulation. That said...

    Sounds like you are still looking for a reason for someone to say hope over the new saint... even though several people have unanimously spoken for saint...

    For lever feel, modulation and reliability, I give the nod to the saints. I've been on the old saint brakes for 3 seasons now... and they are still great. The only replacement brake on my horizon in the m810... at which point the old saints will replace the juicy 7's on my trailbike.
    Last edited by NWfreeride; 05-25-2009 at 12:59 PM.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by NWfreeride
    Sounds like you are still looking for a reason for someone to say hope over the new saint... even though several people have unanimously spoken for saint...

    For lever feel, modulation and reliability, I give the nod to the saints. I've been on the old saint brakes for 3 seasons now... and they are still great. The only replacement brake on my horizon in the m810... at which point the old saints will replace the juicy 7's on my trailbike.
    How many Hopes have you ridden compared to the new Saint?

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clutchman83
    ...IME Saint brakes are extremely powerful and a tad bit touchy. The last pair I rode felt almost too touchy to achieve good modulation but I didn't have a lot of time to get used to them. I wouldn't hesitate from purchasing a set if I found a deal, at the moment though they are waaaaaay too pricey compared to the competition for me to consider. Cannot comment on the Hopes, never used them.
    Ditto that comment on the new Saints. Damn near killed myself the other day on a friends bike with new Saints on the first loose and steep part where braking was required. IME Codes have a much more smooth power delivery (for about the same end power). And to think that they used to say that Codes didn't modulate well when they came out...just goes to show how this stuff is evolving...

  26. #26
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    for those who mentioned the pros brakes, you need to remember they can get new ones or get them bled between every run if they want. They don't need long usage, like halves of seasons out of brakes like most of us do.
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  27. #27
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    Pros also get custom brake compounds, as they might even be used for one race only.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by honourablegeorge
    Peaty and the like wouldn't be riding bikes at all if not for sponsors. They ride the brakes that their sponsors provide, end of.
    Pretty sure Peat runs blacked out Maxxis ties even though Kenda is one of his sponsors.
    I am also pretty sure he runs a custom hope setup, I remember reading it in a magazine that had the specs on his race bike.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by swaussie
    Well with that reasoning should we also think Boxxer Blackbox forks are only on their bikes because they are paid to run them, as with their shocks, tyres, etc??

    I doubt Peaty or Hill would run rubbish brakes/forks/shocks even if they were paid to do it. I would assume these guys run pretty much what is the best for them to win on in a world class competition. If Elixer brakes can stop Steve Peat or Sam Hill then they sure as hell can stop you or me. And they have mechanics because they are professionals. It doesnt take a rocket scientist to bleed brakes but they have people do it for them so they can focus on more important stuff between runs.
    Damn straight they use that stuff because they are getting paid. Steve Peat is high enough caliber that he has the good fortune of having a sponsor like sram who for the most part makes really good products. and a rider like that can prolly hand pick which team or sponser he wants. Peaty prolly gets some great benefit to running all Sram products which are all high quality products so theres no sweat off his back.

    but we are consumers, we are paying out the ass for this stuff and on top of that we have to either pay to maintain it or figure out to fix it on our own. we might aswell pick the stuff that is going to be the best. Being a mechanic I tend to pick the parts that are the lowest maintenance and the easiest to work on.

    Avid brakes work really well when you are on your bike but are a pain in the ass to deal with on the stand. I cringe everytime I have to change the pads or bleed an avid brake, while shimano brakes bring a smile to my face.

    The elixers are an improvement from the juicy's in terms of maintenance. I like how the back of the caliper is opened up (you know just like shimanos) so you can see the pads wear and align the brake more easily. I imagine its still that vacuum tight system so the pots dont push back at all and you have to do the 2 syringe thing to bleed them

  30. #30
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    Buy Hope!!!!!

  31. #31
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    I have used hope M4's for a while and there stopping power is great and never failed me and im a heavy guy, but upgrading to M6 Ti;s but i think its all personal preferance you thought about the M6 ?

  32. #32
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    The M6 no longer exists.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by tatankainlondon
    I am using M810 Saint brakes and they are absolutely awesome. I am much heavier than you and I have all the power and modulation I need. Previously I used Formula The One and to be honest I find 09 Saints are much better.
    What did you do with your Ones? If anyone is selling some cheap I'll gladly take them off your hands!!! I find their modulation far better than anything Avid or most others have without sacrificing braking power.

    Thanks,

    G MAN
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  34. #34
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    Formula Oro The One. Nothing comes close.
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  35. #35
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    Aren't The Ones the brakes being complained about on multiple websites at this point? Jeez, at this point, people should really step off the Formula bandwagon and try to help other people out. They're turning into the Z. Cavaricci of the bike component world at this point. Good brakeline, but supremely overhyped and the users often offer zero assistance, other than the one word answer on what brake to use, no matter what the OP states as the choices they narrowed down. On top of that, just because it has that branding doesn't mean it's going to be fault-free, as being displayed now.

  36. #36
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    "Formula Oro The One. Nothing comes close."

    Nice objective review.

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  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iwan
    Formula Oro The One. Nothing comes close.
    Damn, looks like The One is up 1 to nothing in this e-battle.

    Avid Code. Nothing comes close.

    There, it's back to 1 all again. Pfew, close one...

  38. #38
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    ive rider saints and have hope m4s and prefer the hopes as they have better adjustability

    the saints are good but i think the hopes are just better

    also my mates all rum m6s on there dh bikes and love them aswell
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  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iceman2058
    Damn, looks like The One is up 1 to nothing in this e-battle.

    Avid Code. Nothing comes close.

    There, it's back to 1 all again. Pfew, close one...
    Nice! I forgot to put that in my post when I got sidetracked. That was the internet forum one word recommendation of 2007: "Avid Code."

    It's not effective enough without the period at the end.

  40. #40
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    Hope brake systems look so awesome, and I know people who love them, but I can't get over the lever feel.

    The saint's dual sized 4 pot design is it's REAL selling feature that makes for better modulation than codes (my personal favorite still). It's a great design and offers stopping power and modulation that others simply can't with a 2 piston or 4 piston of equal size can.

  41. #41
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    "Hope brake systems look so awesome, and I know people who love them, but I can't get over the lever feel."

    Which lever? The old Mini; the '07 Mini; the Moto; or the Tech?

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  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveUK
    "Hope brake systems look so awesome, and I know people who love them, but I can't get over the lever feel."

    Which lever? The old Mini; the '07 Mini; the Moto; or the Tech?
    Tech M4s and Motos are what I've tried. I really wanted to like the Techs.

  43. #43
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    What was it about the lever that you didn't like?

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  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveUK
    What was it about the lever that you didn't like?
    Sorry to take so long to get back. I found that I could modulate better with my codes but I also realize that's to be expected switching over to a new brake. Other than that I like the little bit of squish that an avid brake lever has, makes me feel like I can feel what the brakes are doing more. Also I'm sure after a long time using Hopes I would feel just as at home with them as I do with my Codes but as they offered no level of performance that my codes don't (IME YMMV) I figured why spend all that money to fix something that's not broken?

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    The important thing is your are moving on from Avids. Any brake you use will be an upgrade from those.

  46. #46
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    Just spent a week in France, riding DH and the Megaavalanche. Had the new Saints on the bike, and I couldn't have been more impressed. I'm a big guy, I'm notoriously hard on brakes, and I didn't even get through a set of pads. No fade, no hassle, no problems. One finger all the way, bags of power, thought the feel was great. I'd recommend them without hesitation.

  47. #47
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    elixir cr! I decided to go ahead and get them and I love the way they feel. Sweet modulation! Plenty of braking power too.

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    Aren't The Ones the brakes being complained about on multiple websites at this point? Jeez, at this point, people should really step off the Formula bandwagon and try to help other people out. They're turning into the Z. Cavaricci of the bike component world at this point. Good brakeline, but supremely overhyped and the users often offer zero assistance, other than the one word answer on what brake to use, no matter what the OP states as the choices they narrowed down. On top of that, just because it has that branding doesn't mean it's going to be fault-free, as being displayed now.
    Just like your fanboy plug for Maguras right JC? Kinda like the pot calling the kettle black wouldn't you say? And funny how the highest rated brakes are the Formulas across their entire line on THIS VERY SITE! Of course we are all wrong because our views don't mesh with yours... The Ones are the only DH brake listed with the "Best of MTBR" award - highly recommended. So yeah, lots of problems buddy. GET REAL!

    Have FUN,

    G MAN
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  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gman086
    Just like your fanboy plug for Maguras right JC? Kinda like the pot calling the kettle black wouldn't you say? And funny how the highest rated brakes are the Formulas across their entire line on THIS VERY SITE! Of course we are all wrong because our views don't mesh with yours... The Ones are the only DH brake listed with the "Best of MTBR" award - highly recommended. So yeah, lots of problems buddy. GET REAL!

    Have FUN,

    G MAN
    Magura?

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    Magura?
    >>Why not throw Gustavs into the mix?<<
    "There's two shuttles, one to the top and one to the hospital" I LOVE this place!!!

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gman086
    >>Why not throw Gustavs into the mix?<<
    Why not? However, someone else has to speak on them because I don't personally use them

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    I have personally use the Hope M6, Mono Mini Pro and currently the M4 dual size piston. Enjoyed the M6 but over kill for my application. Mini's not enough so went with the M4. Ridden mostly aggresive XC with some fast non-dh downhills and gotten them really hot with no fade. I think if you ride DH and get brakes hot on a regular basis you should be flushing your brake fluid often. Like every couple of months. Fade is a function of heat disapation through the rotor first and then through the pistons and caliper and then to the fluid. The older the brake fluid is, the lower the boiling point. And always use DOT 4 or DOT 5.1 fluid. They have the highest boiling points and the 5.1 has a lower viscosity which makes the lever/MC a little snappier.
    I've also used the old Hayes HFX-9 carbons with good success. Too bad Hayes really screwed up by getting rid of the HFX-9 and the Mags....

  53. #53
    mtbr member
    Reputation: 006_007's Avatar
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    Jan 2004
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    Magura Gustav is an absolute true DH brake.

    Floating calipers, huge brake pads, excelent modulation, and stupid amount of power. If there was a way to do .75 finger braking that would be ideal for these brakes.

    I have been running them for a number of years on my V-tach and apart from the 1 bent rotor (my fault) they have received zero maintenance.

    They are heavy though, but it is a DH/FR bike so I dont care.

  54. #54
    Elitest thrill junkie
    Reputation: Jayem's Avatar
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    Jul 2005
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    31,530
    Quote Originally Posted by 006_007
    Magura Gustav is an absolute true DH brake.

    Floating calipers, huge brake pads, excelent modulation, and stupid amount of power. If there was a way to do .75 finger braking that would be ideal for these brakes.

    I have been running them for a number of years on my V-tach and apart from the 1 bent rotor (my fault) they have received zero maintenance.

    They are heavy though, but it is a DH/FR bike so I dont care.
    Agree. I've used them for extended periods of time, they work great. The new saints seem to be a good choice, but the Gustav has always been there, working great, offering great power and modulation.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

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