The BEST DH Drivetrain?- Mtbr.com
Results 1 to 30 of 30
  1. #1
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    30

    The BEST DH Drivetrain?

    Hey MTBR,
    I'm just wondering if any downhillers out there have mated a Hammerschmidt to an internal geared hub (Alfine or similar) yet. Seems like the ideal setup. single cog front and rear, and great clearance with the range of a 2x14 gear range. If anyone has done it, do they like it, and is there a LOT of drag? I'm considering a setup like this for myself, but I don't really have the money to buy it and then not like it.

    Thanks!

  2. #2
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    4,445
    would way rather have quicker engagement, less drag, and about 4 lbs less on my bike

  3. #3
    mtbr member
    Reputation: ianjenn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    3,183
    The drag on the ALFINE isn't to bad. Its a few % more than standard. Not sure what would happen combining it with a SCHMIT set-up. You could run the 11spd Alfine?

  4. #4
    mtbr member
    Reputation: modifier's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    1,815
    If it wasn't for the weight, especially unsprung, more people would probably do it. The Honda gearbox was a good attempt. Basically just a rear derailleur and a few gears in a box above the BB. Little extra weight and low and sprung.

    Zerode out of New Zealandis offering a pretty cool bike using an Alphine as a front drive replacement.

  5. #5
    enjoys skidding
    Reputation: jasevr4's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    1,098
    Yeah I'd be looking at a Zerode style frame or stick with X0/Saint depending on your preference. As far as I'm aware, they are the only affordable options.

  6. #6
    Glad to Be Alive
    Reputation: SHIVER ME TIMBERS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    42,929
    IMO honestly unless you ride in a lot of mud....then their is no need for the Hammerschmidt drive train....everybody is looking to make their bike lighter but adding pounds to your bike seems like nonsense for everyday riding. That is Why I just run the X9's...I could easily afford X0's but the price isn't worth it and the gram difference doesn't make it worth it either
    Last edited by SHIVER ME TIMBERS; 11-29-2011 at 06:42 PM.
    the trick is ENJOYING YOUR LIFE EACH DAY, don't waste them away wishing for better days

  7. #7
    mtbr member
    Reputation: bermluvr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    682
    Quote Originally Posted by SHIVER ME TIMBERS View Post
    IMO honestly unless you ride in a lot of mud....then their is no need for the Hammerschmidt drive train....everybody is looking to make their bike lighter but adding pounds to your bike seems like nonsense for everyday riding. That is Why I just run the X9's...could afford X0's but the price isn't worth it
    Totally agree with you dude
    2013 Cannondale F29 2
    2013 Giant Seek 0
    2010 Specialized SX Trail
    2009 Cannondale Rize 4

  8. #8
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    30
    I'm surprised to hear that. I know you guys know WAY more than me, but it seems to me that three huge issues that would be instantly improved by this setup would be ground clearance allowing much lower BB height (improved cornering), No dropped chain ever, and virtually eliminating chain slap. Imagine if a bike was designed around a BB that was 1.5 inches lower than anything available! Also, The added weight of the hammer is at the lowest point on the chassis, so it will have less of an effect.

  9. #9
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    674
    If you lower the typical BB height 1.5", you'll have pedal strikes practically every time you pedal. Pretty much anything below 14" and you find people complaining about pedal strikes.
    BTW< you consider chain slap a "huge issue" ?
    Oh and you'll still need a chain guide to control slack caused by suspension movement- very very few bikes have a constant BB to rear axle distance as the suspension moves.
    2011 Canfield ONE 200mm DH 35 pounds
    2010 Specialized Pitch 29 lbs sold
    Wife: 2009 Canfield ONE also 29 lbs

  10. #10
    mtbr member
    Reputation: ianjenn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    3,183
    Quote Originally Posted by tazmetal View Post
    I'm surprised to hear that. I know you guys know WAY more than me, but it seems to me that three huge issues that would be instantly improved by this setup would be ground clearance allowing much lower BB height (improved cornering), No dropped chain ever, and virtually eliminating chain slap. Imagine if a bike was designed around a BB that was 1.5 inches lower than anything available! Also, The added weight of the hammer is at the lowest point on the chassis, so it will have less of an effect.
    True having the weight low and centered minimizes it HUGE. But most DH factory race bikes have 6-7 speeds. So using an ALFINE and then a Hammerscmit up front will give you 16 total? Seems like a lot of gears. But if I was running an AM/FR style bike it may work out. The Zerode is 14" even BB and is pretty good. It may come down about .25" at a time till a sweet spot is found.

  11. #11
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    423
    Quote Originally Posted by crossup View Post
    if you lower the typical bb height 1.5", you'll have pedal strikes practically every time you pedal. Pretty much anything below 14" and you find people complaining about pedal strikes.
    Btw< you consider chain slap a "huge issue" ?
    Oh and you'll still need a chain guide to control slack caused by suspension movement- very very few bikes have a constant bb to rear axle distance as the suspension moves.
    qft

  12. #12
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    30
    Quote Originally Posted by ianjenn View Post
    But most DH factory race bikes have 6-7 speeds. So using an ALFINE and then a Hammerscmit up front will give you 16 total? Seems like a lot of gears. But if I was running an AM/FR style bike it may work out.
    I think you hit the nail on the head. I am trying to make an AM bike. I got into DH recently, and basically had to part out and sell my xc bike to buy my 04 Norco A-line, and it pedals HARD, especially as a 38t front 1x9 setup. I really dont like the idea of a front derailler though. Still , I think you all convinced me against the hammer. I think I will go to a 2x9 with bash. Is an SLX DH 2-ring crank with bash tough enough for real DH?
    This: Shimano SLX Chainset Double M665 | Buy Online | ChainReactionCycles.com

  13. #13
    Glad to Be Alive
    Reputation: SHIVER ME TIMBERS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    42,929
    Quote Originally Posted by tazmetal View Post
    I'm surprised to hear that. I know you guys know WAY more than me, but it seems to me that three huge issues that would be instantly improved by this setup would be ground clearance allowing much lower BB height (improved cornering), No dropped chain ever, and virtually eliminating chain slap. Imagine if a bike was designed around a BB that was 1.5 inches lower than anything available! Also, The added weight of the hammer is at the lowest point on the chassis, so it will have less of an effect.
    in the last 8 years I have never dropped a chain with MRP an X9 derailer...so that is not an issue.....on my M9 the bb is more then low enough
    the trick is ENJOYING YOUR LIFE EACH DAY, don't waste them away wishing for better days

  14. #14
    mtbr member
    Reputation: ianjenn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    3,183
    Quote Originally Posted by tazmetal View Post
    I think you hit the nail on the head. I am trying to make an AM bike. I got into DH recently, and basically had to part out and sell my xc bike to buy my 04 Norco A-line, and it pedals HARD, especially as a 38t front 1x9 setup. I really dont like the idea of a front derailler though. Still , I think you all convinced me against the hammer. I think I will go to a 2x9 with bash. Is an SLX DH 2-ring crank with bash tough enough for real DH?
    This: Shimano SLX Chainset Double M665 | Buy Online | ChainReactionCycles.com
    Yes those will work fine. Pedalling a big bike around is rough. Are you young? If so that is how mark Weir got so strong and another local here used to do 30 or so mile loops on his 2002 M1 and ride a very sketchy DH trail at the end so it is possible. Something like a 6" bike built light like 28-30 is good for 90% of whats out there. Just something to consider.....

  15. #15
    enjoys skidding
    Reputation: jasevr4's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    1,098
    Yep same as SMT.. I reckon dropped chains are a thing of the past now.

  16. #16
    mtbr member
    Reputation: monstertiki's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Posts
    710
    x9 and a reliable chainguide. Use the money saved towards other stuff like suspension, a good wheelset, or brakes.

  17. #17
    Professional Troll
    Reputation: Gemini2k05's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    2,417
    Quote Originally Posted by SHIVER ME TIMBERS View Post
    I could easily afford X0's
    Goddamn you make me horny

  18. #18
    Professional Troll
    Reputation: Gemini2k05's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    2,417
    Quote Originally Posted by tazmetal View Post
    Is an SLX DH 2-ring crank with bash tough enough for real DH?
    This: Shimano SLX Chainset Double M665 | Buy Online | ChainReactionCycles.com
    Yes it is. And unless you're hitting up east coast resorts constantly you don't need a "real dh" worthy stuff. MI riding ain't THAT gnarly. A capable 6" bike is the way to go for most people.

  19. #19
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    61
    You aren't going to find many people running internally geared hubs in dh for a few reasons, one of which is they only come in 135mm width. I believe a HS + geared hub would be relatively pointless due to gearing anyway. The speedhub has similar gearing to a 3x9 set up when using a 40t chainring. (Gear range comparison: www.rohloff.de) Having a 24t gear on the HS would give you an extreme granny gear and the higher HS gear would give you unnecessary drag.

    I recently put a HS on my jedi because I am not currently "beast mode" enough to maintain long steep-ish climbs with a 32t chainring when climbing and the jedi wouldn't support a 2 ring front set up due to the idler gear. Riding a 40lb+ bike up hills is almost never fun, 24t out front helps a little (though perhaps less than one might think). If I had room for another bike I would probably get a double ring capable bike to complete my stable and my jedi would not have a (HS isn't as efficient, adds weight, etc. basically everything everyone said here).

    So far (only about 4 miles of climbing), I haven't found much advantage to the HS. On the climbs, I generally stayed on the 26t sprocket which is not going to be a whole lot different than the 32/34 set up I was running before). I'm sure things will change as I put more mileage on the HS but we'll see.

    I'm not selling my single ring crankset any time soon, I certainly got a hell of a lot stronger in the couple hundred miles I was using it.

  20. #20
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    111
    Quote Originally Posted by SHIVER ME TIMBERS View Post
    IMO honestly unless you ride in a lot of mud....then their is no need for the Hammerschmidt drive train....everybody is looking to make their bike lighter but adding pounds to your bike seems like nonsense for everyday riding. That is Why I just run the X9's...I could easily afford X0's but the price isn't worth it and the gram difference doesn't make it worth it either
    My combo of a Hammerschmidt and XO DH rear dérailleur help a lot going on bumpy terrain and steep rocky upslope, no more losing the chain or slipping shifts powering uphill. The Hammerschmidt shifting is instant and no lag. The ground clearance is unbeatable by any 1x or 2x speed. Only bearbug is on overdrive, back pedaling has a clinking sound, doubles as a bell.

  21. #21
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    674
    OK, 'tis true pedaling big bikes in general is not the best idea, BUT the day has been here for a while where one can get a serious DH bike that pedals as well as the best AM bikes.
    I came from a 29 pound 6" Pitch(AM all the way) and my Canfield ONE v2 climbs with less pedal effort(zero bob or lost motion on the ONE), has what feels to be twice the traction(running the tire/wheelset off the Pitch, so it does not get more equal than that!), and will just roll over stuff the Pitch had to be 'horsed' over. So bottom line, despite a 6 pound weight disadvantage, the ONE is far and away a better climber. And I can guarantee you, at 61 years old and 140 pounds I will NOT ride a bike that takes ANY extra effort to climb.


    Quote Originally Posted by ianjenn View Post
    Yes those will work fine. Pedalling a big bike around is rough. Are you young? If so that is how mark Weir got so strong and another local here used to do 30 or so mile loops on his 2002 M1 and ride a very sketchy DH trail at the end so it is possible. Something like a 6" bike built light like 28-30 is good for 90% of whats out there. Just something to consider.....
    2011 Canfield ONE 200mm DH 35 pounds
    2010 Specialized Pitch 29 lbs sold
    Wife: 2009 Canfield ONE also 29 lbs

  22. #22
    mtbr member
    Reputation: juanbeegas's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    1,036
    The one 2011 Demo I tried with a Hammer set up, pedalled like balls. The same Demo set up with a 36t chainring pedalled a lot better, there was way less bob. I don't think any DH bike was designed around a Hammerschmidt...

  23. #23
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    30
    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini2k05 View Post
    Yes it is. And unless you're hitting up east coast resorts constantly you don't need a "real dh" worthy stuff. MI riding ain't THAT gnarly. A capable 6" bike is the way to go for most people.
    True, MI does suck for DH/FR. But I plan on making at least 4-5 trips here : Mountain Biking at Blue Mountain Resort, Ontario, Canada
    and at least one trip here: Whiteface Lake Placid Summer Activities (my real home is only 2 hrs away)
    Also, near my college, we have big stairs (8-12 ft maybe?), and a little DJ park
    Lastly, I am a wicked Clyde, so my bike needs a bit more beefiness(if that is a word)
    BTW, thanks to all of you, super helpful!

  24. #24
    Living the High Life
    Reputation: Ithnu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    4,543
    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini2k05 View Post
    Goddamn you make me horny
    +rep for that one.

    I run all Saint drivetrain with an e13 taco. The only time my chain dropped was when a baby head ripped the pulley off the back of the taco. I have a friend who rides a Hammer Schmidt on his 6" bike, loves it, but rides a 1x9 on his DH.
    You have just been mentally Rick Roll'd. Yup you're thinking about it right now aren't you? Don't fight it.

  25. #25
    mtbr member
    Reputation: string's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    1,549
    I swore by my Hammerschimdt on my Knolly DT for the past 2.5 years. It was a great addition.

    As of October 1 it is sitting on a shelf in favor of a 32 T chainring and an MRP Mini G2SL. I don't really miss the HS or the weight I lost. I actually found that I spent 95% of the time in the normal mode and really never used the overdrive. Too much drag for anything but full out DH. The ground clearance was nice, but the taco guide gets me close.

    I am currently building a Santa Cruz Driver 8 (thanks Hucknroll) and am not using the Hammerschmidt even though it means buying new cranks.

    It was a great idea, but with the improved chainguides and lighter builds its just not necessary.

  26. #26
    mtbr member
    Reputation: modifier's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    1,815
    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel O. View Post
    Having a 24t gear on the HS would give you an extreme granny gear and the higher HS gear would give you unnecessary drag.

    I recently put a HS on my jedi because I am not currently "beast mode" enough to maintain long steep-ish climbs with a 32t chainring when climbing and the jedi wouldn't support a 2 ring front set up due to the idler gear. Riding a 40lb+ bike up hills is almost never fun, 24t out front helps a little (though perhaps less than one might think).
    I tried running the 32 on my Jedi for a while but it was just too hard on my knees when it got steep. I tapped my Saint crank and mounted a 24tooth ring. (Taping that Saint and mounting the ring ) Lost 2 upper gears and gained 2 lower gears with better spacing between shifts. Best thing I could have done. Now it's a climbing machine. Where I live we have short steep up and down and no long downhill so I don't need more than a 24/11 and don't spin out. If I go to a park I'll have to throw a 34 or 36 back on.

    I just saw a shot of a DH cluster with a 9 tooth cog. Only a 6 speed now but if you could eventually get a 10 speed with 9/36 with a 24 front that would cover almost everything.

    Run a Ti or steel 24 ring to offset wear on the small ring.

  27. #27
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    674
    The main problem with the HS is its 'new' tech. Pretty much the same place chain drive was in the 1800's...we've been polishing on it ever since. The result is a simple, almost crude method of power transfer that just can't be beat for low weight and efficiency. Give the HS idea 50 years and it will be a whole new deal, especially considering how new materials could negate all the negative points we have now(carbon cases, unobtainium gears, teflon coated, super conductor magnetic bearings, hollow Bucky Tube(carbon) shafts etc).
    But of course in that same time frame some other concept may surface, I think a CV tranny would be the bomb
    2011 Canfield ONE 200mm DH 35 pounds
    2010 Specialized Pitch 29 lbs sold
    Wife: 2009 Canfield ONE also 29 lbs

  28. #28
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    61
    Quote Originally Posted by modifier View Post
    I tried running the 32 on my Jedi for a while but it was just too hard on my knees when it got steep. I tapped my Saint crank and mounted a 24tooth ring. (Taping that Saint and mounting the ring ) Lost 2 upper gears and gained 2 lower gears with better spacing between shifts. Best thing I could have done. Now it's a climbing machine. Where I live we have short steep up and down and no long downhill so I don't need more than a 24/11 and don't spin out. If I go to a park I'll have to throw a 34 or 36 back on.

    I just saw a shot of a DH cluster with a 9 tooth cog. Only a 6 speed now but if you could eventually get a 10 speed with 9/36 with a 24 front that would cover almost everything.

    Run a Ti or steel 24 ring to offset wear on the small ring.
    I was actually talking to Chris about something like this. One of the big S companies (can't remember who) has a prototype 9-36 cassette floating around and there are ways to bolt on a 28t chainring to the saint as well (the 2 manufacturers on this slip my head as well). I believe the cassette will be available in the next 12mo. I'll probably give this a shot as soon as it becomes affordable. It should provide enough of a granny for me to climb as well as not spin out often.

    I almost spin out with a 32t chainring and 11t sprocket from time to time and have no problem spinning out the HS with the 24t gear, so I'm not sure how you can live with a 24t chainring on the jedi unless it's very flat where you live...

  29. #29
    I <3 dirt
    Reputation: Ilikemtb999's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    1,430
    Hope is coming out with that cassette

  30. #30
    mtbr member
    Reputation: modifier's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    1,815
    [QUOTE=Daniel O.;8782666
    there are ways to bolt on a 28t chainring to the saint as well [/QUOTE]

    There are holes already in the crank for a standard 64mm bcd. Just tap them out and add some spacers.

    Black Spire and E13 are also making double rings that are hooked to each other so you can have a double on a single crank. But that doesn't help too much with your Jedi because of the pulley. Although Chris said he ran a double for a while and just kicked down to the small ring by either pedaling backwards or with his foot.

    I almost spin out with a 32t chainring and 11t sprocket from time to time and have no problem spinning out the HS with the 24t gear, so I'm not sure how you can live with a 24t chainring on the jedi unless it's very flat where you live...
    Well you live in a mountainous area of California. My Uncle lives in that area.

    Like I said, 'Where I live we have short steep up and down and no long downhill so I don't need more than a 24/11 and don't spin out.'

    My 6'4" 215lb trains all the time , rides a road bike, strong mofo, riding partner doesn't spin out either with that gearing.

Similar Threads

  1. SRAM Grip Shifters on Shimano Drivetrain & SRAM Drivetrain....
    By Dragon Of The East in forum Drivetrain - shifters, derailleurs, cranks
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 10-24-2012, 07:47 PM
  2. Drivetrain issues - please help - x post from Drivetrain
    By yohyat in forum Downhill - Freeride
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 01-03-2011, 08:30 AM
  3. Drivetrain gurus...please advise! Where did I go wrong in my drivetrain build? Grind!
    By drew4392 in forum Drivetrain - shifters, derailleurs, cranks
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 05-19-2009, 03:12 PM
  4. SRAM X.9 Drivetrain or Shimano XT Drivetrain
    By znarf420 in forum Turner
    Replies: 26
    Last Post: 10-31-2006, 07:56 PM
  5. Drivetrain Help!
    By LGD98 in forum Turner
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 04-30-2004, 01:47 PM

Members who have read this thread: 0

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

THE SITE

ABOUT MTBR

VISIT US AT

© Copyright 2019 VerticalScope Inc. All rights reserved.