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Thread: XCL/Evo

  1. #1
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    XCL/Evo

    From another thread I gather that Evo's and some XCL's are made in the USA, and the rest of the XCL's are made in Taiwan.

    How are the US XCL's different from the Taiwan ones, and how does one get a US made one if they want to?

  2. #2

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    The changes made to the XCL for the out sourced frame.
    The seat stays are narrower
    The lug on the Chain stay has more tire clearance
    The tubing is butted
    The pivot bolt on the drive side is revers thread
    The E type der mount upper nut is welded into the frame
    The wieght is a little less than the US made one
    We have them in all sizes and colors in stock
    The Chumba graphics are not a sticker
    The head badge is a little metal Chumba head.

    The us made frames are great but I think that the Taiwan frames have come a long way.
    Great welding and with amazing quality control.

    I will be in the shop on Monday Give me a call 714-348-6859

    J
    Last edited by RacinJason; 10-14-2007 at 05:47 PM.

  3. #3
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    I own a Taiwan-made XCL and I couldn't be happier with it. If you look at Jason's list every difference is an improvement! It's the difference between a small custom shop building from tools and materials they can get off the shelf (Chumba in the US) and a serious bike manufacturer that has made the investment in tooling to do things right (the Taiwan factory).

    I have never actually seen the US made frames. I'm sure they are solidly built. I've gone over mine with a fine tooth comb and I can see no manufacturing flaws.

    If you don't need a custom frame (and the wait that involves), and you don't mind saving money on a well-built bike, get one of the Taiwan frames.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by chucko58
    I own a Taiwan-made XCL and I couldn't be happier with it. If you look at Jason's list every difference is an improvement! It's the difference between a small custom shop building from tools and materials they can get off the shelf (Chumba in the US) and a serious bike manufacturer that has made the investment in tooling to do things right (the Taiwan factory).

    I have never actually seen the US made frames. I'm sure they are solidly built. I've gone over mine with a fine tooth comb and I can see no manufacturing flaws.

    If you don't need a custom frame (and the wait that involves), and you don't mind saving money on a well-built bike, get one of the Taiwan frames.
    Chucko is absolutely right. We are able to make improvements to the frames a lot faster by sending them overseas. We used to outsource some of our overflow frames to a local subcontractor who used to and still does make frames for some US-based high-end bike companies, and we were very disappointed with the quality. Almost all the production issues we ever had were because of subcontracting locally (I have a sneaking suspicion on how the cable guide got welded backwards, but I cannot post that publicly for legal reasons). When we produced in-house or went to our trusted overseas factory, the bikes always came out perfect. When we started selling XCLs and F5s, we were never able to keep up with demand with our in-house production facility, so we went overseas to a factory that we knew produced top-shelf stuff. It seems kind of counterintuitive, because you are accustomed to believing made in the U.S. is better, but I learned the hard way that its not always true. Don't get me wrong, if you want junk out of Taiwan, you will get junk. But if you want a bike with the weld quality and finish of bikes like the IBIS Mojo, SC Nomad, and our beautiful XCL, you can get that too.
    Last edited by CHUMBAevo; 10-15-2007 at 02:32 AM.
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by CHUMBAevo
    But if you want a bike with the weld quality and finish of bikes like the IBIS Mojo, SC Nomad, and our beautiful XCL, you can get that too.
    The Ibis Mojo doesn't have welds.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scruffylooking
    The Ibis Mojo doesn't have welds.
    Nor is made in Taiwan either

  7. #7
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    Carbon isn't on my list of approved mountain bike frame materials anyway.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAPIT
    Nor is made in Taiwan either
    Some parts are:

    Tom from Ibis posting. The answer to your question is not a simple as you may think. So instead of saying that the Mojo is made here or there I'll give you the necessary information and let you decide. The carbon components of the frame are made in China, just outside Hong Kong. The aluminum parts - such as the links and seat clamp - come from Taiwan. The bearings are from Japan, and the Fox shock comes from the US. We gather all these components here in Scotts Valley, California and assemble it into a frame. So knowing all that, where does the Mojo come from? Depends on your perspective, I guess.

  9. #9
    nerfherder
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strafer
    Some parts are:

    Tom from Ibis posting. The answer to your question is not a simple as you may think. So instead of saying that the Mojo is made here or there I'll give you the necessary information and let you decide. The carbon components of the frame are made in China, just outside Hong Kong. The aluminum parts - such as the links and seat clamp - come from Taiwan. The bearings are from Japan, and the Fox shock comes from the US. We gather all these components here in Scotts Valley, California and assemble it into a frame. So knowing all that, where does the Mojo come from? Depends on your perspective, I guess.
    Ah, welcome to our global economy. Even "American Made" things are like this these days. Thanks for sharing this Strafer. I think it's a good point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CHUMBAevo
    Chucko is absolutely right. We are able to make improvements to the frames a lot faster by sending them overseas. We used to outsource some of our overflow frames to a local subcontractor who used to and still does make frames for some US-based high-end bike companies, and we were very disappointed with the quality. Almost all the production issues we ever had were because of subcontracting locally (I have a sneaking suspicion on how the cable guide got welded backwards, but I cannot post that publicly for legal reasons). When we produced in-house or went to our trusted overseas factory, the bikes always came out perfect. When we started selling XCLs and F5s, we were never able to keep up with demand with our in-house production facility, so we went overseas to a factory that we knew produced top-shelf stuff. It seems kind of counterintuitive, because you are accustomed to believing made in the U.S. is better, but I learned the hard way that its not always true. Don't get me wrong, if you want junk out of Taiwan, you will get junk. But if you want a bike with the weld quality and finish of bikes like the IBIS Mojo, SC Nomad, and our beautiful XCL, you can get that too.
    Part of the problem people have with Taiwanese frames is with the companies that simply sent their stuff out there and didn't give a rat's ass about how they were made, so long as they simply had "units" to ship out to satisfy the spreadsheet in the computer. In this sense, the bikes did lose their "soul", for lack of a better way of saying it. It wasn't even smaller companies that produced lower end or mid level bikes that have been there for many years. It was by such high-profile companies like ABG/Litespeed and they're now bearing the failure of that project because it appears just about all of those frames failed due to the beancounters here and over there controlling the assembly (ie: not heat treating the frames) and the design. There are some other companies that tried and are coming back, in part at least. Poor production can be anywhere and it's also based on the structuring of the company and the economics. Some American made frames are among the best in the world, while some are not as good as a Taiwanese or Chinese frame. There are way too many factors. It's heavily based on the office designing and receiving their frames. They have to be willing to invest the money to examine samples, make sure the factory managers are not cutting corners (ie headtubes shorter than spec, shorter or no heat treat, lower current setting on the welders, regular jig resetting), and be willing to reject and/or correct a batch of frames that comes in. Sometimes a batch of several hundred frames could hit the design offices, all built wrong. In that case, what does the company do? It's tough.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    Part of the problem people have with Taiwanese frames is with the companies that simply sent their stuff out there and didn't give a rat's ass about how they were made, so long as they simply had "units" to ship out to satisfy the spreadsheet in the computer. In this sense, the bikes did lose their "soul", for lack of a better way of saying it. It wasn't even smaller companies that produced lower end or mid level bikes that have been there for many years. It was by such high-profile companies like ABG/Litespeed and they're now bearing the failure of that project because it appears just about all of those frames failed due to the beancounters here and over there controlling the assembly (ie: not heat treating the frames) and the design. There are some other companies that tried and are coming back, in part at least. Poor production can be anywhere and it's also based on the structuring of the company and the economics. Some American made frames are among the best in the world, while some are not as good as a Taiwanese or Chinese frame. There are way too many factors. It's heavily based on the office designing and receiving their frames. They have to be willing to invest the money to examine samples, make sure the factory managers are not cutting corners (ie headtubes shorter than spec, shorter or no heat treat, lower current setting on the welders, regular jig resetting), and be willing to reject and/or correct a batch of frames that comes in. Sometimes a batch of several hundred frames could hit the design offices, all built wrong. In that case, what does the company do? It's tough.
    Jerk Chicken is also absolutely correct in his statements. After visiting Taiwanese factorys I can tell that many, many bike companies do this. They leave the design and prototyping/manufacturing process to the plant in Taiwan, and although they are competent, often times, the specs of the chassis are not rigidly adhered to, and the bike ends up coming out different than what was spec'ed -- another factor is that a lot of US-based mountain biking companies do not have their own production capabilities in-house. This is a big disadvantage because they have to outsource all of their prototyping, rather than being make adjustments on the fly -- and gain the technical expertise and experience to oversee production when it is outsourced. When we were making our XCLs, we spent many, many weeks in Taiwan overseeing the line, correcting drawings, and making sure everything was just as good, if not better than what we could do in the US.
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    Sometimes a batch of several hundred frames could hit the design offices, all built wrong. In that case, what does the company do? It's tough.
    If several hundred frames (hundreds of thousands of dollars worth!) are made wrong somebody ought to be fired and permanently removed from the work force.

    Otherwise, track the source of the error down and whichever link in the supply chain screwed up eats the order!

    At least that is what should happen.

    But I think usually, unsuspecting customers end up getting stuck with the mistakes dam% near all the time as long as the frames or whatever can be "fixed" or otherwise made to work.

    I am not saying that any of the builders mentioned in this thread have or ever would do this, but there are many that would, have, and will again, in a great many industries.

    Caveat emptor.

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