What I disliked about the XCL- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1

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    Bonking ... not feelin' well What I disliked about the XCL

    First of all, let me say that this is an excellently fabricated frame, but there were some things that were really frustrating about the frame, that I would not have expected from a high end type bike.

    My mistake was to buy one based solely on the reviews in the mountain bike rags, sight unseen. I will never buy a bike or a frame again unless I can see it and test ride it first.

    The bikes I had previous to this one were: K2 evo, Jamis dakar expert - 2002 or '03 model, [[[[ that had the real horst link ]]], and a Giant NRS. I loved the Jamis geometry and the suspension linkage, which was the reason why the XCL caught my eye.

    I rode that Jamis frame into the ground, the suspension pivots only used plain bushings, it had a fox r coil shock, and it only had 90mm travel. I ended up fracturing the chainstays, just behind the welds after about 2 years of use, but the fact is, I could have bought 5 of those frames from Jenson when they were getting rid of them for less than I spent on one XCL frame, and I would still have 1 fresh one left.

    The major gripe I have is in the lack of information about the frame from the manufacturer, let me explain:

    Think about the parts you want to put on the bike before you get it:

    It will not accept 8" rear disc rotor - that info was nowhere to be found in the product specs. This has been touted as an aggressive cross country bike, almost approaching all mountain, but this is definitely not the case if you ride were I do in western Washington - big climbs and long descents, usually in wet conditions.

    A 2.6" rear tire will rub. I installed one at first, and although it didn't rub on level ground, the frame does in fact flex, so the tire would hit the lower yoke in hard turns and g-outs. This, also was not to be found anywhere in the product spec. Again, western Washington riding with skinny tires isn't that fun.

    Other issues:

    Derailleur hanger is very exposed. I bent the first one on the very first ride I took. I know they are supposed to bend easily, but these seamed EXTREMELY easy to bend.

    I bought mine with the anodized finish - the slightest rub of anything will remove that finish - I ended up with bright polished marks on the rear seat stays where the heels of my shoes would rub every so often, and every where a cable touched the frame.

    I am 5'8" tall, and I bought the small frame, the web sight says up to 5'9". The bike felt WAY too small for me. - My fault for not test riding first.

    Seat clamp- It looks beautiful, but it only had a regular type II anodized finish, so the very first time I went to clamp the seat, it completely galled and stripped the coating off the mating cam surfaces. I never, ever got that on generic adjustable seat clamps that I paid only a few dollars for - frustrating.

    The Fox DHX air shock. Way too much for this bike, with this suspension linkage design, a simple fox r or RC, with coil spring would work perfectly well.

    Lastly, product info. I bought the frame from Adrenaline bikes, what I got was a box with a frame and an invoice in it. For $1300, I would expect at least a thank you for buying, an assembly drawing for part replacement, or: here is how long to cut you cables, something, but no, nothing came with the frame in the box.

    So, the lesson I learned was to not believe magazine reviews, and always, always test ride a bike before you buy.

    This bike has a lot of potential, but I think a lot of details need to be addressed.

  2. #2
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    Use a 7" rear rotor and smaller tires. wow, big deal...
    Ground Steeze. @iggy_strbac

  3. #3
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    If you need an 8" rotor and a 2.6" tire on the rear, an Evo might have been a better choice. For that matter, I run 8" front and 6" rear rotors, and use a 2.35 rear tire (2.5 front) on my Evo, in steep wet pine forest conditions, and don't feel any need for more; I wouldn't exactly call those "skinny tires". Seems to me that 2.6 on the rear is into pure DH territory already...

    Never had an XCL, so I'll leave the other points to others. I've certainly never had any trouble with the finish on the Evo, though it's not anodized. Decals are coming off a bit, but then I average 2-3 hrs a day on fairly heinous terrain, some battle scars are to be expected.

  4. #4
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    It definitely sounds like you bought the wrong bike for your needs. I don't remember reading any reviews stating the XCL would be a great DH rig.

    I have an anodized grey frame and after nine months of fairly abusive riding and several crashes, the only exposed metal is inder the top tube where my bike rack has been rubbing it with exposed metal.

    I say sell it and use the funds for an EVO.

  5. #5

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    I don't own a Chumba, likely will never, but I will put my two cents in:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jayhumph
    First of all, let me say that this is an excellently fabricated frame, but there were some things that were really frustrating about the frame, that I would not have expected from a high end type bike.

    My mistake was to buy one based solely on the reviews in the mountain bike rags, sight unseen. I will never buy a bike or a frame again unless I can see it and test ride it first.
    Could be valid. Buyer beware and all the associated Latin phrases.
    The bikes I had previous to this one were: K2 evo, Jamis dakar expert - 2002 or '03 model, [[[[ that had the real horst link ]]], and a Giant NRS. I loved the Jamis geometry and the suspension linkage, which was the reason why the XCL caught my eye.
    A "real horst link frame"? You do realize that an HL is not a suspension design, but an element of a variety of suspension designs? In addition, the Jamis has been widely reported to actually not exhibit traits that people commonly associated with the claims made in Specialized ads. It appeared to (and in my riding experience with it) ride contrary, with regard to braking.

    So you automatically thought that if something had a similar appearance in linkage, it would automatically have the same geometry and the same linkage characteristics? I believe we are seeing one element of the problem that's quite significant. Expectations contrary to what they were going to get. Even single digit changes in the millimeters are going to have big effects on geometry and ride.
    I rode that Jamis frame into the ground, the suspension pivots only used plain bushings, it had a fox r coil shock, and it only had 90mm travel. I ended up fracturing the chainstays, just behind the welds after about 2 years of use, but the fact is, I could have bought 5 of those frames from Jenson when they were getting rid of them for less than I spent on one XCL frame, and I would still have 1 fresh one left.
    Should have bought a backup or attempt to find replacement stays. However, you are showing the truth that a great ride isn't necessarily about how much you spend, though there is a role in some cases.
    The major gripe I have is in the lack of information about the frame from the manufacturer, let me explain:

    Think about the parts you want to put on the bike before you get it:

    It will not accept 8" rear disc rotor - that info was nowhere to be found in the product specs. This has been touted as an aggressive cross country bike, almost approaching all mountain, but this is definitely not the case if you ride were I do in western Washington - big climbs and long descents, usually in wet conditions.
    This is kind of ridiculous to want to put an 8" rotor on. Are you a heavyweight? This bike is an aggressive XC bike, nothing more, nothing less.
    A 2.6" rear tire will rub. I installed one at first, and although it didn't rub on level ground, the frame does in fact flex, so the tire would hit the lower yoke in hard turns and g-outs. This, also was not to be found anywhere in the product spec. Again, western Washington riding with skinny tires isn't that fun.
    I think few people will consider putting 2.6's on a 5 Spot, for instance, even though there's clearance. You're in downhill and Freeride territory, clearly what the bike was NOT made for. You made the wrong choice.

    On the other side of the issue, didn't Chumba make those ads with people freeriding the XCL? I still think this was an uneducated consumer realizing they made the completely wrong choice due to their own shortcomings in research.

    Other issues:
    Derailleur hanger is very exposed. I bent the first one on the very first ride I took. I know they are supposed to bend easily, but these seamed EXTREMELY easy to bend.

    I bought mine with the anodized finish - the slightest rub of anything will remove that finish - I ended up with bright polished marks on the rear seat stays where the heels of my shoes would rub every so often, and every where a cable touched the frame.

    I am 5'8" tall, and I bought the small frame, the web sight says up to 5'9". The bike felt WAY too small for me. - My fault for not test riding first.
    No disputes, and I will repeat that you not only didn't do your research and bought on impulse, but you didn't test ride something you'd be so particular about. This is not Chumba's mistake.

    Seat clamp- It looks beautiful, but it only had a regular type II anodized finish, so the very first time I went to clamp the seat, it completely galled and stripped the coating off the mating cam surfaces. I never, ever got that on generic adjustable seat clamps that I paid only a few dollars for - frustrating.
    I have a Hope clamp on my bike, and the mating surfaces to rub off. Don't know what you expected, but there's a high amount of loading there. You seem to be very unrealistic and very demanding.
    The Fox DHX air shock. Way too much for this bike, with this suspension linkage design, a simple fox r or RC, with coil spring would work perfectly well.
    Baffling. First you talk about how you need 8" rotors and 2.6 tires, but now the DHX Air is too much shock? And how would you know what would work on the bike without trying it? I'm sure you can get coils of your liking. BTW- it's not 2002. There's no "simple Fox r or RC" anymore. This is indicative of your lack of research all around.

    Lastly, product info. I bought the frame from Adrenaline bikes, what I got was a box with a frame and an invoice in it. For $1300, I would expect at least a thank you for buying, an assembly drawing for part replacement, or: here is how long to cut you cables, something, but no, nothing came with the frame in the box.
    You're really an entitled one, aren't you? You expect everything to be handed to you, no work or nothing. If you weren't getting info from the manufacturer or dealer, why did you buy? Why didn't you wait or pass on to another manufacturer? And now you're complaining that Adrenaline didn't thank you???

    So, the lesson I learned was to not believe magazine reviews, and always, always test ride a bike before you buy.
    Could be a valid point, yes.
    This bike has a lot of potential, but I think a lot of details need to be addressed.
    I think the only thing that needs addressing is what your expectations of everything are. I'm sorry to be the one to so directly inform you of this, but everything you've described in your post points to you as the problem, not Chumba, not Adrenaline.
    Last edited by Jerk_Chicken; 07-03-2008 at 02:07 AM.

  6. #6
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    I agree with 100% of what JC said.

    To the OP, did you ever ask either Chumba, Adrenaline bikes, or the good people of the Chumba forum, these questions?

    One thing I will agree on is the owners manual. I know it is just a bike, but heck, has you ever seen the Ibis Mojo owners manual, it is a thing of beauty. Bikes that cost >$3000 should come with something...

  7. #7
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    Wow dude, you must have been having a heavy-flow day when you posted this.

    Your lack of reseach to put down over a $1000 on a bike frame is stunning. The kind folks at Chumba are always happy to chat about the details of their bikes, shoulda called. Basing your purchase on mag reviews is downright scary.

    The previously-owned bikes you listed are all short travel XC bikes. The XCL is a long-travel XC bike. Odd that all of the sudden you're expecting it to be this big bad freeride machine. 8" rear rotors and 2.6 tires are for DH and FR. I've ridden in many areas around the country, including Washington, and those specs would be way overkill for anything but DH and FR trails. Should have bought an EVO if this was the type of riding you're progressing towards.

    I have an anondized grey frame and have beat the heck out of it, with very, very little damage to the finish. I'm 5'9 and bought a medium frame. By studying the frame numbers and talking with Chumba reps, this worked out perfect for me, dispite never taking one for a test ride.

    I do agree with a couple over your points. Though many folks like it, I too thought the DHX Air was more than this bike needed. So I looked into my options with Chumba and got mine equipped with an RP23 shock. Its sweet, and the suspension design is amazing. I owned a Jamis Dakar before too, and it blows that away in every category.

    The d. hanger on the XCL is weak. I've gone through 4 of them in less than a year of riding. Never had that issue with previous frames I owned. I don't believe its a design issue, but rather the material they use for the hanger is incredibly weak.

    Learn to love it, its a great bike. Or sell it if it doesn't meet your riding demands.
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  8. #8
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    So were you able to fit 2.6 tires and 8 inch rotor on back of your K2 evo, Jamis dakar expert - 2002 or '03 model? 2.6 may not have even existed back then let along fit on those frames so how do you expect an XC frame to fit 2.6 tires? I'm still puzzled on your setup choice.

    Yes chumba did put out picture of one dude jumping huge gaps on a XCL that I would not even try to attempt on a motor cycle. But he too has standard build with 6 inch rear rotor from the picture. That's all skills not 2.6 inch tires.

    And all the reviews on magazine did NOT say it's FR bike, they all said it's an excellent all around trail/XC bike and no one has ever tried to put a 2.6 or even 2.5 on back of XCL on any reviews.

    Soooooo..................where did you get your ideas again?
    "Didn't your doctor tell you to stop smoking and drinking?" George Burns "Yes but they all died"

  9. #9
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    This guy probably knew that he was going to get piled on, but what the heck. He has buyers remorse and is going to slam someone else for his lack of research. I love my XCL, and paired with the Lyric, it's really solid. 2.6"rears?!?!? I ride the narrowest tire that I don't pinch flat on a regular basis....2.35 Nevegal works great for my needs, and I'm 6'2", and most likely heavier.

    I don't think that he should be slamming Chumba, Adrenaline Bikes, or the XCL for that matter based on his own ignorance. When you buy a frame, it is assummed that you know what you are doing and how to mount all the other pieces. Asking for cable lengths is a joke!

    There was a thread about the largest rear rotor that could fit, it was a 6" on the small/mediums, and 7" large. I warped a 6" (but I think it was from transporting it in the truck on it's side) so I went with the 7", and guess what???? No friggen difference, but it looks cool.

    Sell it and buy some Jamis parts and run your 2.6's on them. That oughta work out great.

  10. #10
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    You can run a 7" rotor on a medium XCL.. barely. And Schwalbe Big Bettys will fit as well.. barely.

  11. #11
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    Looks light you brought a knife to a gunfight! 2.6 tires and 8" rotors? That is downhill territory equiptment? I weigh 225 and am 6'3" and run a 8" rotor up front and a 6" in the rear and have never had an issue w/control or being able to ride any terrain that is typical here in western Pa. We have lots of steep, rocky trails and all kinds of soil, never been an issue. The gray ano on my 6 month old XCL has held up quite well and I ride in all conditions and seasons, think mud and rocks and more mud and when cleaned up, my frame's ano looks pristine. I have put frame tape on areas where my cable rubs but that is simple common sense.
    I do think a manual would make sense but there is enough info on the web site to get by.
    Customer service is outstanding and the guys at Chumba are always available to answer questions.
    So far as the Der. Hanger being easily broken, maybe? I've broken 3 in 6 months BUT my derailleur survived most of the hits. I think I have solved the issue to a point by going to a XT Shadow Der. That thing really tucks under the chainstay and sticks out no more than the quick release nut. I ride in very rocky terrain w/lots of trees so derailleurs come and go
    quite often.
    So far as the rear shock goes, I talked w/Chumba and opted for the RP23 in lieu of the DHX Air.
    Bottom line, shame on you for not doing your homework and trying to make a bike something it is not intended for.

  12. #12
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    This dude is obviously a Tool.

    Yet, Chumba has that big gapper XCL shot on their website. Not appropriate marketing on their part.

    How about standover height on their website, instead of some lameazz suggested rider height.

    For all you Chumba Fan Boys, my homie got shaft by their CS, but keep stroking them!
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  13. #13
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    so we are waiting for the apology or the beatings will continue

    I rail very gnarly DH on my F5 and run a 2.35 intense DH REAR tire. A 2.6 rear tire on an XCL... Get a clue man. Doesn't make a difference what you run in the rear as long as it holds air, has a couple cornering knobs.

  14. #14
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    Some valid points

    Quote Originally Posted by snowdrifter
    This dude is obviously a Tool.

    Yet, Chumba has that big gapper XCL shot on their website. Not appropriate marketing on their part.

    How about standover height on their website, instead of some lameazz suggested rider height.

    For all you Chumba Fan Boys, my homie got shaft by their CS, but keep stroking them!
    Good point on the gap jump pic, probably not the best idea but you learn as you go right? I'm sure Chumba regrets putting the pic up in hindsight.
    Standover height can be pretty subjective depending on tire choice and rim choice, not by much but some difference COULD be measured and I'm sure it would end up in someones complaint list. Proper fit can only be guaranteed by trying a bike out for fit.
    Yes, I am a Chumba fan but then I have had nothing but great customer service from them so why would I not back them up? Based on my experience w/them, you would really have to piss them off to get less than great service? Or expect service above what should be expected?

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaMtnBkr
    Good point on the gap jump pic, probably not the best idea but you learn as you go right? I'm sure Chumba regrets putting the pic up in hindsight.
    Standover height can be pretty subjective depending on tire choice and rim choice, not by much but some difference COULD be measured and I'm sure it would end up in someones complaint list. Proper fit can only be guaranteed by trying a bike out for fit.
    Yes, I am a Chumba fan but then I have had nothing but great customer service from them so why would I not back them up? Based on my experience w/them, you would really have to piss them off to get less than great service? Or expect service above what should be expected?

    Chumba was approached very carefully by my friend. If it was me, I would have started a smear campaign! They chose not offer him what he was looking for, made some pretty lame statements about his situation, my friend let it go. Obviously, Chumba can't make everyone happy. I just know if my friend was dealing with Turner or Ventana, he would have gotten his frame promptly swapped out. So Chumba will always be Chumps IMO! I do think they make very nice bikes though!

    As for Standover, I posted a thread. Chumba never responded, they only seem to respond to love fest threads, or when they're getting some serious bad press.

    Standover should be reported, and should detail, what fork, sag, and tires it was measured at. Not very difficult at all. They list all the other important geometry info on their site.
    beaver hunt

  16. #16

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    I stirred up a geeks nest

    No apologies here, I didn't post for the benefit of the Chumba mutual admiration society, I did it to put the info out there for the lurkers so they get all the facts before they buy, and don't make the same mistake I did.

    That being said, it is NOT the fact that I couldn't use 8" rotors that pissed me off, it was that the info wasn't there, and that was what I had at the time when I went to build up the bike- they were coming off my Giant NRS. The 6" rotors work almost as well, but there is nothing more infuriating than finding out at the very end of the build that the rotor will not work.

    All Chumba needs to do is post the info on their spec page.



    And don't give me that holier than thow attitude as to what is the "correct" setup for a cross country rig. I use what I use because it works in the conditions where I ride - which really is aggressive trail riding, not DH or FR. It's not "bringing a knife to a gun fight", it's the other way around.

    Anyway, this was also sweet release since I had just sold the frame to another sucker.

  17. #17
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    ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jayhumph
    No apologies here, I didn't post for the benefit of the Chumba mutual admiration society, I did it to put the info out there for the lurkers so they get all the facts before they buy, and don't make the same mistake I did.

    That being said, it is NOT the fact that I couldn't use 8" rotors that pissed me off, it was that the info wasn't there, and that was what I had at the time when I went to build up the bike- they were coming off my Giant NRS. The 6" rotors work almost as well, but there is nothing more infuriating than finding out at the very end of the build that the rotor will not work.

    All Chumba needs to do is post the info on their spec page.



    And don't give me that holier than thow attitude as to what is the "correct" setup for a cross country rig. I use what I use because it works in the conditions where I ride - which really is aggressive trail riding, not DH or FR. It's not "bringing a knife to a gun fight", it's the other way around.

    Anyway, this was also sweet release since I had just sold the frame to another sucker.
    8 inch rotors for the rear wheel for aggressive XC?

    We would have been more than happy to consult with you on your build and help you find what was right for you. Anyway - hope you enjoy your next frame.
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  18. #18

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    8" rotors on an NRS? You must be insane, with all due respect.

    Wasn't your previous bike a Jamis, besides?

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowdrifter
    Obviously, Chumba can't make everyone happy. I just know if my friend was dealing with Turner or Ventana, he would have gotten his frame promptly swapped out. So Chumba will always be Chumps IMO! I do think they make very nice bikes though!
    Even with the reputation of Turner and Ventana's CS, I'm sure they don't have a 100% satisfaction rating. You said it yourself "Chumba can't make everyone happy", no one can. Those of us who replied in response to the OP probably did so more to him being a moron with too high expectations and his lack of basic knowledge in the physics department more so than coming to Chumba's defense. Still, I have no problem with being labeled a "fan boy" because I am a fan of this company. I've seen them bend over backwards to make things right when someone, even a total tool, isn't happy with their bike.

  20. #20
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    ChumbaEvo, Is it all right if I put a Fox 40 on my XCL?

  21. #21
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    Jayhumph put your skirt down your whining because you want to.
    snowdrifter the perfect bike is the one you ride, no manufacture is going to kiss ass for CS. Customer service is not for whining babies because once they get there way they never stop.

    Many DH riders use 6-7" rear rotors with great success if you need a 8" rotor because of mud you dont know how to use the brakes but are great at getting trails closed for real riders.

    Manufactures post as many important specs as needed if they posted everything guys that want the specifics would be frustrated from the BS.

    Gotz ta laugh your an "aggressive" XC rider with 2.6 rear tire ima gonna laugh with duke777 your a frigin tool.


    Good thing you sold the bike now you can go whine someplace else.
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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowdrifter
    This dude is obviously a Tool.

    Yet, Chumba has that big gapper XCL shot on their website. Not appropriate marketing on their part.

    How about standover height on their website, instead of some lameazz suggested rider height.

    For all you Chumba Fan Boys, my homie got shaft by their CS, but keep stroking them!
    lol... you sound like a typical litigious-minded american that cant think for yourself in regards to that gap jump pic "issue" and then at the drop of a hat you are tough guy calling out "fan boys" and giving shout outs to your "homies". you are probably the type that would sue mcdonalds for scalding your nuts (or labia... not sure what you got under the skirt) if you spilled hot coffee on your lap.

    and the standover height thing?!?! wtf is wrong with you people... pick up a damn phone, call chumba, and ask them QUESTIONS. this concept seems foreign to some of you clowns but it is amazingly simple... what is the standover height? call em! what size tires or rotors can i put on the xcl? call em! how long do i cut the cables & housings? call em (then get a friggin life)... it is that easy. that is why "fan boys" like chumba b/c they are willing to give those answers over the phone or email in a hurry. (and yes, chumba should have that info on line but its not hard to track down if you need it).

    that said.. i agree that the der. hangers are weak... i went thru 3 in the first 8 or so months.
    Last edited by happy_ending; 07-05-2008 at 11:55 AM.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayhumph

    It will not accept 8" rear disc rotor
    Why in gods name would you want an 8" rotor? Perhaps to make up for the difference caused by a crappy disc brake I suppose, but other than that there is no good reason to use an 8" rotor. On a bike for all-mountain, freeride, and downhill, I have no reason to use bigger than a 6" rotor in the rear. Maybe I'm missing out on skidding everywhere, but I seem to be able to bleed off speed just fine, no fading or overheating, and if something's going to overheat it isn't going to be the rear brake.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayhumph
    That being said, it is NOT the fact that I couldn't use 8" rotors that pissed me off, it was that the info wasn't there, and that was what I had at the time when I went to build up the bike- they were coming off my Giant NRS. The 6" rotors work almost as well, but there is nothing more infuriating than finding out at the very end of the build that the rotor will not work.
    For everyone else, it's a reasonable assumption that an XC or AM bike may not be able to take an 8" rotor.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  25. #25
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    Is this guy serious ? 8 inch rotor ? Wow, what a wanker :LOL

  26. #26
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    OMG what an idiot...

    Judging a bike to be FR because of ONE pic of some dude going big on the internet???

    Your an idiot...

    Ignoring or not bothering to read the countless XCL reviews and posts that CLEARLY provide the information needed to know it's an AM bike???

    Your an idiot...

    Complaining because you can't get a 2.6 rear tire or 8" rear disc on the BACK of an AM bike???

    You guessed it, your an idiot...

    BUT putting an EIGHT INCH rotor on the back of an NRS???

    NOW THAT'S PRICELESS......

    Now please stop blaming others because you have buyers regret. You buy online than you take the responsibility of making sure your buying what you want/need. If you got questions than you need to get off your butt and get answers, not just post on some forum and expect everyone to come running to serve you. And If your not sure of something or still have questions than your not ready to send the money yet are you? OR you go find a Bike Shop and pay them to help you make sure your making the correct buying decision. That's what they exist for...

    For the record, I do not nor have ever owned or rode a Chumba. But I have now seen 2 XCL's in person and they look like some pretty nice bikes...

  27. #27

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    Jul 2008
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    6
    I ride a XCL and this guy sounds like a Chumba Competitor putting some hate on the product. My XCL it one of the toughest CC bikes I have ever ridden.

  28. #28

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    16,457
    Quote Originally Posted by S.T.K
    I ride a XCL and this guy sounds like a Chumba Competitor putting some hate on the product. My XCL it one of the toughest CC bikes I have ever ridden.
    It makes too little sense to be a competitor carefully placing negative heat on Chumba. I'd also be careful with instilling such ideas because they can be as destructive to Chumba in terms of rumors and negative word of mouth as a true negative campaign from a competitor.

  29. #29
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
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    Sep 2006
    Posts
    764
    Nah, to me he sounds like one of those guys who gives a bike a negative review because he doesn't like the grips. Kind of one of those really picky weenie types

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