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  1. #1
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    one of the last Zion 737

    I ordered a matte black 737EBB, only larges were left. I am 6 ft. so that should be fine. They seemed to be gone right after I ordered - I might have the last one. They were on closeout at $115.00, and this was definitely an impulse buy. I'm already looking at forks and the Salsa looks good from Speedgoat:
    http://www.speedgoat.com/productB.asp?part=119614
    Have not ridden SS, 29er, or rigid before so it'll be something completely different . . . there are some nice looking Zions posted up and that helped me pull the trigger.

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    I ordered one too. I had been contemplating it for a while and when the price got down to $115.00 and only large black was left I figured I had to move. Right after I ordered mine they were no longer on the site. Definitely impulse and as with you first 29er and hadn't done much with SS. I got into mtn bikes in the late 80s so definitely not first rigid.

    I figured if I was going to test the waters of 29er what could it hurt to do it on a less pricey frame that gets really good reviews. Shame they had to kill it. Shame I didn't snap up a Zion fork for it while they were still available. I'm going to try it with a Kona P2 to start. We'll see how that works out. I have P2s on other bikes and like them pretty well.
    Quote Originally Posted by banks
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  3. #3
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    Good luck with the P2 and of course your 737EBB!

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    Quote Originally Posted by dgwright
    Good luck with the P2 and of course your 737EBB!
    Yeah, thanks. I was torn between the Salsa and the P2, and figured since this is a first pass at 29erdom I'll save the $40.00. I actually was kind of leaning toward doing a budget suspension fork and dropping the coin for a Tora, but I'll wait until I find out if I like the bike at all or not.
    Quote Originally Posted by banks
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  5. #5
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    I have an On-One Suprlight Steel fork on mine and it was worked great. This was my first rigid bike and it really wasn't a hard transation.

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    Wow! I hope this doesn't come off the wrong way, but first rigid? Wow, you all make me feel like an old fart

    So what are your thoughts about full rigid? Likey? No likey? Remember, almost everything you all ride today on double boingers, people rode 20 years ago on full rigid.
    Quote Originally Posted by banks
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  7. #7
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    P2 no bueno

    If I remember correctly, the P2 fork is too short for suspension corrected 29ers. Search the 29er forum for clarity, of course. I think the A-C length that's right for the Zion frames is around 478mm or so, while the P2 is in the 450mm range.

    As for the fully rigid ride, just be sure to mount up some fatty tires (or "meats" as we used to say), like the Panaracer Rampage 2.35. Takes the little bumps out, while the big wheels reduce the bump deflection. Overall, with my steel frame and fork and fatty meats, it rides pretty darn okay.

    Surly KM forks are going cheap pretty often these days, and will fit just fine (have one on my 737.)

    Waiting to be corrected.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 105millimetersofpleasure
    If I remember correctly, the P2 fork is too short for suspension corrected 29ers. Search the 29er forum for clarity, of course. I think the A-C length that's right for the Zion frames is around 478mm or so, while the P2 is in the 450mm range.
    No, the P2 for 29ers is 465mm. You're thinking of the 26" P2 which has an AC of either 410 or 440mm depending on how new it is. I have one of each on other bikes.

    The Zion 29er fork is ~475mm. The Salsa CroMoto Grande and Surly KM are only 468mm.

    The P2 may be a little bit shorter, but somebody on this forum is riding a 737 with a fork meant for a 660 (457A-C) and seems to be pretty happy with the ride.
    Quote Originally Posted by banks
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  9. #9
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    Fuzzy Math

    Quote Originally Posted by IF52
    No, the P2 for 29ers is 465mm. You're thinking of the 26" P2 which has an AC of either 410 or 440mm depending on how new it is. I have one of each on other bikes.

    The Zion 29er fork is ~475mm. The Salsa CroMoto Grande and Surly KM are only 468mm.

    The P2 may be a little bit shorter, but somebody on this forum is riding a 737 with a fork meant for a 660 (457A-C) and seems to be pretty happy with the ride.
    Hey IF52, please excuse my fuzzy numbers. I remember reading about the p2 fork for 29er applications, and I do remember it being "short." 1cm might not make too much difference, though I've heard complaints about the 737 bottom bracket hanging low with the original Zion fork. I'm running a Surly fork with mine, and it feels pretty good so far. Hope the offset works well with the Zion; it's certainly worth a try.

    FWIW, I looked over the posted pictures of the 26" forked 737, and I still think Jenson shipped a 29" fork to him in a 26" box -- there's just too much clearance between his crown and his tire for that to have been a 26" spec'ed fork. Again, just my $.02.

    Good luck!
    105mm

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by 105millimetersofpleasure

    FWIW, I looked over the posted pictures of the 26" forked 737, and I still think Jenson shipped a 29" fork to him in a 26" box -- there's just too much clearance between his crown and his tire for that to have been a 26" spec'ed fork. Again, just my $.02.

    No, his fork is very clearly the 26" fork. Look at the picture he posted of the measuring tape, it shows an AC of ~18" or 457mm. If it was the 29er fork the measurement would be closer to 18.75"

    Look at post 10 in this thread

    http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=393892
    Quote Originally Posted by banks
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    Yes I am!

  11. #11
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    Should be measured to the Crown Race (headset)

    Quote Originally Posted by IF52
    No, his fork is very clearly the 26" fork. Look at the picture he posted of the measuring tape, it shows an AC of ~18" or 457mm. If it was the 29er fork the measurement would be closer to 18.75"

    Look at post 10 in this thread

    http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=393892
    I think you guys are using the wrong part of the fork to determine A-C. While this guy's measurement helps to determine wheel/tire clearances, it does nothing to determine the head angle of a build. In order to determine the HA, you need to measure where the fork from where it meets the frame/headset; this is the proper point of the "crown" to measure from.

    Proper Axle to Crown (read "headset crown race") would leave him @ ~18" (see the pic #10 you referenced), which is in the 478mm range -- which is basically the average A-C measurement of most suspension-corrected steel 29er forks (surly, salsa, niner -- most are right in this range). For reference, My Surly KM 29er fork is a hair shorter than his by this measurement, coming in at 453mm. Again, the problem here is that the measurement should have been from the axle to the crown where the race attaches.

    Really though, all you have to do is look at his picture #12 to see plenty of wheel clearance for his 29er wheel. If this were a 26er fork, even one that was suspension-corrected, that wheel would just barely fit in. While clearance wouldn't be a problem, his geometry most certainly would: His steering would be too steep and his cranks/pedals would hit every little obstacle; basically, it would ride horribly, and be far twitchier than any road bike.

    Sorry, but this is certainly a suspension-corrected 29er fork that has been mismeasured by its owner. Lucky for him though, is that it's perfectly matched to his sweet Zion 737 frame. He's lucky indeed, as many of us 737 owners had to find forks elsewhere (this my Surly.)
    Last edited by Entrenador; 06-10-2008 at 12:04 PM.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by IF52
    No, his fork is very clearly the 26" fork. Look at the picture he posted of the measuring tape, it shows an AC of ~18" or 457mm. If it was the 29er fork the measurement would be closer to 18.75"

    Look at post 10 in this thread

    http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=393892
    See the diagram here for accurate A-C measurements:
    http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.ph...16620#poststop

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by 105millimetersofpleasure
    I think you guys are using the wrong part of the fork to determine A-C. While this guy's measurement helps to determine wheel/tire clearances, it does nothing to determine the head angle of a build. In order to determine the HA, you need to measure where the fork from where it meets the frame; this is the proper point of the "crown" to measure from.

    Proper Axle to Crown (read "headset crown race") would leave him @ ~18" (see the pic #10 you referenced), which is in the 478mm range -- which is basically the average A-C measurement of most suspension-corrected steel 29er forks (surly, salsa, niner -- most are right in this range). For reference, My Surly KM 29er fork is a hair shorter than his by this measurement, coming in at 453mm. Again, the problem here is that the measurement should have been from the axle to the crown where the race attaches.

    Really though, all you have to do is look at his picture #12 to see plenty of wheel clearance for his 29er wheel.

    It's certainly a suspension-corrected 29er fork.
    To borrow form D8, BZZZZT wrong answer, but thanks for playing. You apparently don't know how to convert inches to metric. The measurement from the center of the dropouts on that fork to the fork crown race seat (duh ) is 18". 18" x 2.54 = 45.72CM which is 457.2MM. THAT is the axel to crown measurment of that fork which places it squarely in 26 inch wheel territory, PERIOD. If that fork, again, was a 29er fork the fork crown race seat would line up with roughly the 18.75" mark on the measuring tape.
    Quote Originally Posted by banks
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  14. #14
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    First, a concession

    I didn't convert well, granted. That said, take a look at Surly's numbers for comparison:

    Surly Instigator fork is a 26" wheel fork spec.ed for 100mm suspension correction, and it's A-C length is only 447mm. Salsa's 26" susp. corrected fork has an A-C of only 445mm.

    The KM 29" suspension-corrected fork is 468mm A-C length.

    So, it's either a 26" wheel fork that corrects for a 110mm+ suspension fork (all too common, right? ), or it's a shortish 29er fork. It obviously fits well enough on the 29er, it says "29" on it, and there is certainly clearance for more wheel there.

    I'm sticking to the reboxed 29er fork theory, but at any rate, I'm glad it's working for it's owner.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by 105millimetersofpleasure
    I didn't convert well, granted. That said, take a look at Surly's numbers for comparison:

    Surly Instigator fork is a 26" wheel fork spec.ed for 100mm suspension correction, and it's A-C length is only 447mm. Salsa's 26" susp. corrected fork has an A-C of only 445mm.
    Why are we looking at Surly's and Salsa's 26" forks? Oh yeah, your trying to make a point that the Zion fork with a 457mm A-C length is a 29er fork. OK, from the Zion website:

    Quote Originally Posted by Zion/Jenson Website

    26" fork weighs 2.45 lbs (1,111 grams) and has axle-to-crown measurement of 457mm (replaces Marzocchi MX Comp 85, Fox F80, etc)
    What part of that don't you understand? See where it says the axle to crown is 457mm? See where it says 26" fork?

    The A-C of the Marz MX Comp 85 by the way, is ~465mm, the F80 is in the 455mm range.

    Still doubt me? OK:

    Quote Originally Posted by Zion/Jenson Website

    29" fork weighs 2.55 lbs (1,156 grams) and has axle-to-crown measurement of 475mm (replaces Rockshox Reba 29'er or similar)
    Read it for yourself here:

    http://jensonusa.typepad.com/zion_bi...rks/index.html


    Quote Originally Posted by 105millimetersofpleasure

    The KM 29" suspension-corrected fork is 468mm A-C length.

    So, it's either a 26" wheel fork that corrects for a 110mm+ suspension fork (all too common, right? ), or it's a shortish 29er fork. It obviously fits well enough on the 29er, it says "29" on it, and there is certainly clearance for more wheel there.
    Nope, it is a 26" wheel fork that corrects for a 80-85mm travel fork like the Marz or Fox as listed on the Jenson/Zion website. I am guessing the reason Noobi likes it is because it is a long fork intended for a 26" wheel bike.

    Quote Originally Posted by 105millimetersofpleasure
    I'm sticking to the reboxed 29er fork theory.
    OK, you keep wearing the tinfoil hats too.

    By the way, Salsa also makes a 'suspension correct' fork with a 425mm A-C and Surly makes one with a 413mm A-C, but I suspect you are way too young to have ever ridden a bike with a suspension fork that had so little travel (RockShox Mag21, early Marz Bomber Z.2)
    Last edited by IF52; 06-10-2008 at 08:28 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by banks
    That is one big f'n dude!
    Yes I am!

  16. #16
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    Not too young to have ridden a Spec. Futureshock with ~50mm of travel, and in fact long ago I measured the A-C to replace it with a rigid one.

    I'm not doubting that Jenson sold this fork as a 26" fork; just doubting that it serves well as a one.
    Cheers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 105millimetersofpleasure
    I'm not doubting that Jenson sold this fork as a 26" fork; just doubting that it serves well as a one.
    Cheers.
    I hope the folks at Jenson or whoever contracted to have these thing built put enough thought into things to match the fork's length with the frame's geometry. I agree that the fork wouldn't really be optimal with a typical frame designed around a 80mm fork, but if they DID actually put any thought behind it the Zion forks and frames when matched to each other probably ride well. I haven't ridden mine yet since it's not quite done, but suspect it will be kind of quick with a 1cm shorter fork than the Zion 29er fork.

    It does seem to me that they speced an A-C that matches an ~80mm fork like the Marz. MX's free length, not the length with rider weight.
    Quote Originally Posted by banks
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  18. #18
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    ...and after riding my bike for a while, I think the P2 fork, at 465mm A-C, is too short. It is only 10mm shorter than the Zion 29er fork, but it seems to make a difference. I'll take some measurements tonight, but it seemed like it brought the BB height down quite a bit more than I figured it would as I was wacking into things way more on this bike than any of my other bikes. And the bike didn't really point the way I expected, but then it is a fairly steep bike IIRC.
    Quote Originally Posted by banks
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  19. #19
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    Fork

    Quote Originally Posted by IF52
    ...and after riding my bike for a while, I think the P2 fork, at 465mm A-C, is too short. It is only 10mm shorter than the Zion 29er fork, but it seems to make a difference. I'll take some measurements tonight, but it seemed like it brought the BB height down quite a bit more than I figured it would as I was wacking into things way more on this bike than any of my other bikes. And the bike didn't really point the way I expected, but then it is a fairly steep bike IIRC.

    IF52 (or should I say Mike)

    I wonder if it's the fork offsets that are different enough to give the steering variation (if I'm correctly reading you're not happy with the P2 on the Zion). My Zion 26er fork's offset is 43mm. I don't know what the P2 is.

    Our A-C lengths are probably pretty close. Zion 26er fork is 457mm, but I used an FSA DH Pig Pro headset which has a very thick bottom housing (I didn't think to measure it though).Wouldn't that effectively add to the A-C length (compared to a regular headset, of course)???

    Anyway, I'm still really happy with how mine turned out. If I can measure anything to help out, let me know.
    Originally Posted by Vtolds/Dremer03---- "assume any bikes left unlocked and unattended are free to take"

  20. #20
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    Yeah, I need to check that. I was kind of thinking the same thing. The P2 is 8mm longer than the Zion 26" wheel fork and 10mm shorter than the Zion 29" wheel fork. I haven't found info about the P2 offset. I would imagine it is close since that is a pretty standard offset these days.

    As to the headset, I am running an old style Hope headset, which also appears to have a pretty tall lower cup. It has an overall ~41mm stack versus a King which is more like ~31mm. The Pig Pro is closer to the King stack height than the Hope.

    I'll keep running it like it is for now because overall I think it is a pretty fun bike, but I think eventually I'll swap on a Zion fork if I can find one, or a Reba or Tora.
    Quote Originally Posted by banks
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    Yes I am!

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    So to update, with a set of narrow-by-today's-standard 2.1" Contis the BB height is only 11" with the 465mm P2 fork. I have to really be mindful of what I am riding over or I peg a pedal or crank into things. I think I'm going to bump up to a Reba or maybe to save a couple bucks a Tora. That should jack up the front end a bit and bring up the BB.

    That is unless anybody has a Zion 29er fork they are willing to part with.
    Quote Originally Posted by banks
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  22. #22
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    I'm considering swapping out my rigid fork for another one...searched and found this thread.

    I've got a small Zion 737 and three forks to choose from:

    Haro Mary rigid fork (a2c = 472.6)
    Karate Monkey fork (468mm)
    Zion 26" fork (457mm)

    Opinions?
    Last edited by rockhound; 08-20-2008 at 12:39 PM.

  23. #23
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    Well obviously my opinion is to get something closer to what these frames were designed to use, which is a 80mm 29er fork or a rigid with 475mm A-C. Obviously your mileage may vary, but I am not too thrilled with the way my bike handles with a fork that has a 465mm A-C. Like I wrote in the post above yours, the BB height on my bike with the 465mm P2 fork is only 11 inches, which is very low for most trails around here. Especially with 180mm cranks like I like to use.

    I'm going to replace it with a Reba this week, we'll see how that works out.
    Quote Originally Posted by banks
    That is one big f'n dude!
    Yes I am!

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    Quote Originally Posted by dgwright
    The Salsa fork is only 3mm longer. Not much of a difference. The Zion fork is 10mm longer than what I have and 7mm longer than the Salsa. I finally went ahead and installed a Reba Race yesterday and it made a big difference. Bottom bracket height went from 11" to 11.75" with the skinny 2.1" Conti tires I am currently running. The only problem is the floodgate knob will hit the frame, which is typical with the Reba. I plan on installing the internal floodgate adjuster instead to help avoid this.
    Quote Originally Posted by banks
    That is one big f'n dude!
    Yes I am!

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockhound
    I'm considering swapping out my rigid fork for another one...searched and found this thread.

    I've got a small Zion 737 and three forks to choose from:

    Haro Mary rigid fork (a2c = 472.6)
    Karate Monkey fork (468mm)
    Zion 26" fork (457mm)

    Opinions?

    I love my large 737 with the Zion 26er fork. I'm not sure finding one of these forks is going to be easy though. Or do you already have one?
    Originally Posted by Vtolds/Dremer03---- "assume any bikes left unlocked and unattended are free to take"

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by IF52
    The Salsa fork is only 3mm longer. Not much of a difference. The Zion fork is 10mm longer than what I have and 7mm longer than the Salsa. I finally went ahead and installed a Reba Race yesterday and it made a big difference. Bottom bracket height went from 11" to 11.75" with the skinny 2.1" Conti tires I am currently running. The only problem is the floodgate knob will hit the frame, which is typical with the Reba. I plan on installing the internal floodgate adjuster instead to help avoid this.

    Michael,

    I know it doesn't matter anymore since you've gone with the Reba, but something still doesn't make sense to me about your P2. My BB height is a hair over 11" (11 1/16" to 11 1/8"). I expected less height than you measured since your a-c was longer and your HS bottom cup was thicker. Can it be the tires making that much of a difference? How's the Reba doing for you?

    Noobi
    Originally Posted by Vtolds/Dremer03---- "assume any bikes left unlocked and unattended are free to take"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Noobi-Wan Kenobi
    Michael,

    I know it doesn't matter anymore since you've gone with the Reba, but something still doesn't make sense to me about your P2. My BB height is a hair over 11" (11 1/16" to 11 1/8"). I expected less height than you measured since your a-c was longer and your HS bottom cup was thicker. Can it be the tires making that much of a difference? How's the Reba doing for you?

    Noobi
    Tires and eccentric position. With the eccentric positioned up and slightly forward your spindle height from the ground will be higher. With it at the bottom it will obviously be slightly lower. That said, I have the BB positioned up and forward, so basically at the higher position. Tires would only account for a few MM at most I would guess. With the Reba on the front I have closer to a 12" BB height.

    We'll see how the reba works out tomorrow. Riding around the neighborhood doesn't tell me too much, but so far so good.
    Quote Originally Posted by banks
    That is one big f'n dude!
    Yes I am!

  29. #29
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    Well, I can definitely say the ride is way better now with a taller fork. I didn't peg anything with my cranks on my last ride like I had been prior to installing the Reba.
    Quote Originally Posted by banks
    That is one big f'n dude!
    Yes I am!

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