My "Norwegian" 660- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1

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    My "Norwegian" 660

    Got the frame from Jenson today, and though I don't have all the parts yet, I had to start building the thing.

    So far I'm pretty happy, everything fits, and the build is working out nicely.

    I'll post some more pics when I've finished it
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  2. #2
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    Very nice! Looks like it will be pretty light. What size frame is that a 19". --Mark

  3. #3
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    Does your fork foul on the frame like the Reba's?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jasevr4
    Does your fork foul on the frame like the Reba's?
    Not really, but the cable going to the remote lockout does hit the downtube. I'll post a pic later.
    Last edited by TRricki; 01-04-2008 at 01:57 AM.

  5. #5
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    Thanks!

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    Clearence downtube - R7

    Here you can see the clearance with the Manitou R7. Not too bad at all, though I should shorten the cable for the lockout to make it rest in a better position (I'm actually manipulating it by hand in the picture, to show that it will clear the downtube in the "right" position).
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    Follow up - what will it weigh?

    While building I decided to check tha mass of the different components (geeky? I know!). It all sums up to 6314 grams so far.

    The only bits missing are:

    Mavic Crossride F/R
    Maxxis Larsen TT 1.9/Continental superlight tubes
    Hayes Stroker Trail 6" discbrakes
    Shimano Hone front mech
    Chain (std. 9 spd)
    ODI lock on grips
    cables and such

    How much will it be? Buest guess wins... my admiration and respect!
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    Last edited by TRricki; 01-04-2008 at 09:18 AM.

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    Yes, it's a 19" and I'm curious about the weigth, see follow up, and you get an idea how curious.... Cheers!

  9. #9
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    Nah, that's not that geeky, I keep a excel spread sheet with all the weights of parts on my bike. So when I make changes I know how I'm changing the weight of the bike.

    I have a set of 06 Crossrides in my basement. And they weigh in around 1982 grams for the pair without the skewers. The stock Mavic skewers are pretty heavy (I think 185 grams).

    I also have ODI lock on grips and they come in at 134 grams, heavy but well worth it.

    My vote goes for 25.5 pounds total weight for your bike.

    Looking sweet with all the white and black. --Mark

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    Hehe, so do I (the excel sheet)!

    Let's see: 25.5 pounds, that's 11.567 kgs. I hope it will end up closer to 11 kg than 12 kg.
    If the mavic skewers are heavy, I've got a pair of Salsa skewers that might shave some weight, and I haven't bought the grips yet, maybe I'll go for something lighter there as well.

    We'll see how close you get, I think you're pretty close. I've got a calculation down, but I can't tell you just yet, can I (though it's very likely we are the only ones finding this interesting, hehe).

    By the way, do you have to thread the brake hoses through the frame guides, or do they snap in? Is there a need for zip ties? What did you do on yours?
    Last edited by TRricki; 01-04-2008 at 10:35 AM.

  11. #11
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    I have a set of salsa skewers also, on my scale they weigh 103g. The ODI grips are heavy you could cut 100g just by going with a normal non lock-on grip. I personally love the ODI lock-ons though, so the added weight is worth it to me. My bike with the heavy tires is around 25.8 pounds (11.70Kg). I could cut 280 grams just by going with a lighter tires but then the bike wouldn't be as fun as it is now.

    The brake hoses on my Avid J5's snap in the braze on guides with no issue.

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by marks_bike
    I have a set of salsa skewers also, on my scale they weigh 103g. The ODI grips are heavy you could cut 100g just by going with a normal non lock-on grip. I personally love the ODI lock-ons though, so the added weight is worth it to me. My bike with the heavy tires is around 25.8 pounds (11.70Kg). I could cut 280 grams just by going with a lighter tires but then the bike wouldn't be as fun as it is now.

    The brake hoses on my Avid J5's snap in the braze on guides with no issue.
    I went for the ODI grips, Ruffian MX, weighing in at 112 grams. They are by far superior to anything else, so I totally agree with you on chosing them. My Salsa Skewers weighs in at 94 grams, the rear being titanium. Salsa had this set back in the 90s (when I bought them) made for hardtails w/suspension forks. Cr-Mo at the front for "stiffness", Ti for the rear to shed grams [edit] They still sell them as far as I know.

    Thanks for the information on the snap in brazes, was a bit worried I had to disassemble the rear brake and thread it through. That would have been
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    Last edited by TRricki; 01-06-2008 at 07:55 AM.

  13. #13
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    Hmm. Those newer Ruffians are a lot lighter than the older ones I have. I think it's probably the end caps. The caps on mine kind of bell out a little bit.

    While were talking saving weight, how about ditching the v-brake bosses on the R7? That save ya another 10-20 grams if they are steel (19g on my RS Recon).

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    If you look closely at the pictures of the build at the beginning of the post, you can see that I removed the bosses , but I did weigh the fork when they where still on, so I have to subtract them from the total.

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    I am building up a new Zion 21" myself. I started this thing a couple of months ago and I am still finding the part configuration I want. So far I have went all Truvativ/Sram for drive train and shifters. I found a pretty good deal for the 2007 XO component group and Trauvativ Stylo team crankset.
    It looks like I will be going with the new XT front Der. because Sram does not come in a 28.6 clamp in the the X-9. I have also ordered a Marzocchi Corsa World Cup 100mm shock just because I like the ride a Marzocchi offers. The Corsa will be the beige color instead of the white that the 2008 models come in but I was down to buying the Reba race and the Corsa World Cup, Marzocchi won out.
    I am still pondering on a wheelset for this bike I haven't owned a steel frame bike since I was a kid and I want a light wheelset because of all the climbing I do.
    I see everyone is using low rise bars what do you all think about using a flat bar instead? I am trying to find the right stem now that would best suit a flat bar. I want to have my weight forward but I don't want to be uncomfortable.

    Thanks,
    Bill
    Last edited by bwidner; 01-07-2008 at 02:13 PM.

  16. #16
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    my 660 (pic posted on a different "show us you zion thread" thread) weighs exactly 27 lbs. on the bathroom scale. i would ideally like to shed at least 1 or 1.5 lbs. i'll eventually upgrade to bars, stem, seat post and saddle one piece at a time. but don't know if that will entirely do it. like to know how much the overall weight turns out to be on the norwegian.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by paintlick
    my 660 (pic posted on a different "show us you zion thread" thread) weighs exactly 27 lbs. on the bathroom scale. i would ideally like to shed at least 1 or 1.5 lbs. i'll eventually upgrade to bars, stem, seat post and saddle one piece at a time. but don't know if that will entirely do it. like to know how much the overall weight turns out to be on the norwegian.
    You could probably cut a pound and a half just in brakes and wheels. Avid mechs and those 823's are beefy. Bomb proof but beefy.

    Nice looking ride by-the-way. --Mark

  18. #18
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    yep, 823's are beefier than what i need but i couldn't pass on the price. brakes are actually my next immediate purchase. trying decide if i want to go back to hydraulic. part of me really likes to simplicity of a cable but i miss the buttery smooth feeling from hydraulics...

  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by bwidner
    I see everyone is using low rise bars what do you all think about using a flat bar instead? I am trying to find the right stem now that would best suit a flat bar. I want to have my weight forward but I don't want to be uncomfortable.

    Thanks,
    Bill
    I find the riser bars give a bit more comfort, but first of all it gives better control. I have had bikes with flat bars and barends too, a more racing and cross-country oriented setup, that especially climbs really well.

    I could try to give you some advice if you tell me how tall you are, and your inseam measurement would be good to have too.

    As for myself, I'm 184 cm (6' dead), and have an inseam of 89 cm (35"). This Zion is the first 19" I've had, normally I go for 18". I have a 90mm stem with 10 degree rise, and riser bar with 1" rise. The shorter stem compensates for the slightly long toptube of the Zion, to fit me perfectly. I finished building it last night ( ) and will post some pictures tonight. Check back then, and you can have a look at my setup.

    Cheers!

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    I am 6'4 with an inseem of 34" so I have a tall upper body, I think I want a stem with atleast a 10 degree rise for a flat bar.

    I am trying to build this bike up as light as possible just because the climbing. I use a low rise bar now on my specialized but I have a marzocchi xc comp that lowers the front so it keeps the front end down without having to lean forward as much.

    So far I have:
    Zion 21" frame
    Truvativ team 3.3 crank
    XO trigger shifters
    XO rear derailleur
    Sram 990 cassette
    Sram PC-991 chain
    Marzocchi corsa world cup shock
    I am still in debate on the rest
    XT front derailleur
    Truvativ carbon 31.8 team carbon flat bar
    Truvativ team carbon seat post or maybe go with a Thompson
    Stem ? Thompson maybe
    Mavic Cross trail wheelset. I might go Crossmax if wife will let me

    Any help would be welcome.

  21. #21
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    I prefer risers. Mostly because of comfort, but I also do most of my climbing out of the saddle so a nice wide riser works best for me. Plus I don't like being that laid out on technical sections. A good light weight low riser is the Race Face Dues XC. It's a little narrow for a riser but only weighs 197 grams. But I guess it all comes down to personal preference.

    Right now I'm running: 100mm +6 rise stem and a 1" lower riser bar. I'm thinking of switching 100mm out for a 90mm.

  22. #22
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    Cables simple?

    Quote Originally Posted by paintlick
    yep, 823's are beefier than what i need but i couldn't pass on the price. brakes are actually my next immediate purchase. trying decide if i want to go back to hydraulic. part of me really likes to simplicity of a cable but i miss the buttery smooth feeling from hydraulics...
    To me hydo's are simplicity. They are light, smooth, never have to worry about cables getting crapy and best of all the never have to be adjusted. But to each his own.

  23. #23

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    The rest of the parts weighed

    Here's the rest of the parts, next is the build, finally!
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    The Norwegian Zion

    Ok, people, here goes:

    The Parts:

    Zion 660 19"
    Manitou R7 Super Click IT, 80 mm
    FSA Orbit MX headset
    Thomson X4 stem, 90 mm, 10 degree rise
    Thomson Elite seat post, 410 mm
    Selle Italia SLR saddle
    Answer pro taper Carbon riser, 1"
    ODI Ruffian MX
    Hayes Stroker, 160 mm
    X9 triggers
    X7 rear mech
    Hone front mech
    LX crank and BB
    Xpedo MF-2B pedals, mag/ss
    Sram 950 cassette (with a 970 lock ring for you detectives)
    Sram chain
    Mavic CrossRide wheelset
    Salsa skewers
    Maxxis Larsen TT, 1.9 folding
    Continental Superlight inner tubes

    The Weight:

    It weighs in at 11.35 kg (25 lbs). The wheels are heavier than I expected (130 grams, bummer, it would have been down at 24-something ), but overall I'm happy with that

    The Build:
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    Last edited by TRricki; 01-08-2008 at 03:49 PM.

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    Mark, I see your point. The problem I have is around here is you have to stay in the saddle for the most part to keep weight on the back wheel.We have to many rocks and roots. If you stand up the rear wheel may spin out and it sure is hard to get out of those clips when all your weight goes down fast and hard.

    I am also interested in the wheel setup you have using the Hope pro II hubs. I am not completely sold on the Tubeless tires yet just because I have experienced way to many flats that were not pinch flats. You can't keep a rock or briar from going through the tires. Maybe I should go with a Pro II and Mavic 819 rims just in case I want to go tubeless. I read on here somewhere that the crossmax sl wheelset requires a lot of maintenance to keep them rolling smoothly. I am running X117 rims with deore 6bolt hubs now and they are pretty tough but heavy.

    The Race face Next bar has caught my eye a few times. I still have a ways to go before I decide.

  26. #26
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    Very nice tricki! I dig the white and congrats for the sub 25 pound weight.

    Man those tires are light! My nevegals are heavy at 1327 grams for the pair (2.1 rear and 2.35 front). But man, are they plush That's another one of those "it's worth the weight" thing for me.

    Waiting for the ride report....
    Last edited by marks_bike; 01-08-2008 at 06:42 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bwidner
    I am 6'4 with an inseem of 34" so I have a tall upper body, I think I want a stem with atleast a 10 degree rise for a flat bar.

    I am trying to build this bike up as light as possible just because the climbing. I use a low rise bar now on my specialized but I have a marzocchi xc comp that lowers the front so it keeps the front end down without having to lean forward as much.

    So far I have:
    Zion 21" frame
    Truvativ team 3.3 crank
    XO trigger shifters
    XO rear derailleur
    Sram 990 cassette
    Sram PC-991 chain
    Marzocchi corsa world cup shock
    I am still in debate on the rest
    XT front derailleur
    Truvativ carbon 31.8 team carbon flat bar
    Truvativ team carbon seat post or maybe go with a Thompson
    Stem ? Thompson maybe
    Mavic Cross trail wheelset. I might go Crossmax if wife will let me

    Any help would be welcome.
    Ok, first let's look at the geometry of the 21" Zion:

    First of all it's got a headtube of 6.5", so it's quite tall at the front compared to the 19" (+1.58").
    You are going to use a fork with 100 mm travel that will raise the front another 3/4" compared to my build.
    Next it has only a slightly longer top tube (+0.39") and you have an inseem of 34" and a long torso so you need that and then some.
    Last (and possibly least?) you already have a flat OS carbon bar you may want to use.

    If we look at the three first factors and compare it to my build (both bike and body ), I would say you should go with a flat bar, and possibly also a zero degree stem with a length of 100-110 mm. To be honest you could even go negative in my opinion, so buying a 5 or 8 degree stem and being able to flip it would be an idea. Tip: ask your local bike shop if you can try out a few different stems, they always have loads of cheepo stems in the back, taken from bikes they've sold.

    Here are some simple things you can do to set up your bike correctly for XC/AM riding:

    1: Saddle should be in the middle of the rails and level before you start. A fast way to set the correct saddle height is to put on your cycling shoes, get on the bike, extend your knee fully and see if you can rest your heel on the pedal without stretching or bending. Adjust saddle height until you get it right. When you click in you will have a bent knee. Tip: be careful not to tilt your hip while trying to reach the pedal with your heel. Not because I'm worried about your hip , but because you can set the saddle at the wrong height (too tall).

    2: When sat on the bike with your arms on the handlebar in a natural position, the handlebar should cover the front hub when you look down, or for a more agressive forward position, being just visible behind the bar. You have to change stem for bigger adjustments, or you can slide your saddle a bit, but I don't recommend moving the saddle too much to compensate.

    3: The handlebar should be no more than 4" lower than the top of the saddle. Anything less than 2" will start to feel "flat".

    [edit] I've done a quick sketch of my frame with the setup I have, and the 21 inch with a 100 mm fork and same stem and bar as mine, saddle at 34" inseem. The 21" is light blue, highlighted. The difference is clear, see picture below. [edit end]

    I hope this can guide you in the right direction. Good luck with your build, and remember to post when you get it up and running.
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    Last edited by TRricki; 01-08-2008 at 05:22 PM.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by bwidner
    Mark, I see your point. The problem I have is around here is you have to stay in the saddle for the most part to keep weight on the back wheel.We have to many rocks and roots. If you stand up the rear wheel may spin out and it sure is hard to get out of those clips when all your weight goes down fast and hard.

    I am also interested in the wheel setup you have using the Hope pro II hubs. I am not completely sold on the Tubeless tires yet just because I have experienced way to many flats that were not pinch flats. You can't keep a rock or briar from going through the tires. Maybe I should go with a Pro II and Mavic 819 rims just in case I want to go tubeless. I read on here somewhere that the crossmax sl wheelset requires a lot of maintenance to keep them rolling smoothly. I am running X117 rims with deore 6bolt hubs now and they are pretty tough but heavy.

    The Race face Next bar has caught my eye a few times. I still have a ways to go before I decide.
    I like the pro II's a lot! The pair without rim tape comes in @ 1753 grams (pro II, DT comps, XC717). The rear hub took some time to break-in, probably about 100 miles. And of course they are noisy, I personally like the noise but some hate it. That said if I had to do it all over again I'd likely go with a wider rim, maybe 819's or DT's. The 717's are too narrow for my tastes (and the tires I ride). When it comes down to it, I got hung up on weight rather than what I really needed for my riding style. My Kenda's profile is visible rounder on the 17mm rim as compared to the 19mm crossrides.

    As for going tubeless. You can make most standard rims and tires tubeless with stans. So I wouldn't worry about whether the rim or tires are UST.

    I've never heard anything bad about the Mavic Crossmax but I've also never used them. I do have a pair of crossride's and other than being just a little bit flexy they are great wheelset for the price. I beat the hell out of that set for the year and they held up very well (my weight is 170 with gear). There's also the crosslands. Both wheels have 19mm rims.

    --Mark

  29. #29

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    Thanks Mark, and yes, the tires are light. I'm going to use this bike to exercise and commute, I've got a Commencal Supreme for the AM/freeride stuff.

    Concerning the riser bar question and geometry of bwidner's Zion, see my post on previous page, post #18. Don't know why it ended up there, probably because i quoted bwidner . Anyways, I find it an intereseting little "study".

    Cheers!

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by TRricki
    Don't know why it ended up there, probably because i quoted bwidner . Anyways, I find it an intereseting little "study".

    Cheers!
    Change your "Thread Display Options" it's probably in thread view. I use oldest first, make it easier to follow threads. --Mark

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    Thanks Guys,
    That is a pretty nice and informative sketch you provided I appreciate it. It looks like I will be looking for a stem with less of an angle. When I first started riding my road bike I had to flip the stem to get use to being laid out that far before I flipped it back over. It took about a year but I eventually gained the confidence I needed to be down in the drops.

    I don't mind a little noise I ride by myself most of the time. I try and ride my road bike 3 days a week and my mountain bike a as many times as I can in between. Mountain builds muscle road is cardio.

    I like a wide tire myself so maybe the 819's will do the trick. Have you tride the Continental Speed kings yet? I find these to be a great tire, the only problem I have had so far is when I hit a piece of slate rock under leaves on a fast descent, punctured the tire and tube with about a 1/4 inch gash. I am running the 2.3 tires now but on the Zion I will be looking at the 2.1. They don't come tubeless.

    I forgot to mention I have a Cane Creel S-6 headset. I like this headset I have been using one on my specialized for a couple of years now. It has sealed bearings so no maintenance is required.

    I hope to have this thing built soon. We are having a pretty mild winter so far in Tennessee 68 degrees today time to put on the headlight and do some night riding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marks_bike
    Change your "Thread Display Options" it's probably in thread view. I use oldest first, make it easier to follow threads. --Mark
    Thanks! that does the trick, so simple, yet so.... well simple in fact. Cheers!

  33. #33
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    TRricki that is a very nice ride. After looking at all your pictures I find myself searching for a gram scale this morning. I think I will look for a hanging scale though I might want to lie about the size of a fish sometime.

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    Thanks bwidner, I still haven't ridden it though, the weather is really bad at the moment, just above freezing, lot's of rain and wind. I'm looking forward to it, hope it is as much fun as it was building it!

    I'm probably going to do a little update on the geometry sketch, let me know if you want to have a look at a certain bar/stem setup, it will be very quick now I've got the geometry setup.

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    First impressions

    I've had a few rides on it by now, some smooth, some rough. It's a fast bike, that's for sure, and it fits me very nicely. As for any hardtail set up for XC (the steep angles) it doesn't handle the rough too well, but that has to do with my setup and the limitations of my fork, not the frame itself.

    A friend of mine works in a bike shop, so I got the opportunity to try a few different tires in the frame, and to be honest, understanding how they measure tire sizes is a mystery! All these tires were the same width and volume, give or take a few millimeters:
    • Tioga Factory XC 1.95 (had them in the shed, they are lethal in the wet...)
    • Maxxis ADVantage 2.1
    • Maxxis Ignitor 2.35
    • Maxxis Crossmark 2.1
    • Schwalbe Nobby Nic 2.25
    I put a set of Maxxis Crossmark 2.1 eXception on it in the end, I found the thread fits the purpose of the bike, and the weight is unbeatable. The Larsen TT 1.9 are too skinny for the rough Norwegian winter rides, but I'll probably put them back on when it gets drier.

    The bike now weighs 11.55 kg (25.46 lbs).

  36. #36
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    Yep that's my take exactly. It's a fast whippy frame.

    I went through 3 sets of tires before I saw the light. Big fat tires are my friends and well worth their weight! So now I'm running Kenda Nevegals 2.35 in the front and 2.1 in the rear. If the 660 had fatter chain stays I'd probably have 2.35's in the rear also.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marks_bike
    Yep that's my take exactly. It's a fast whippy frame.

    I went through 3 sets of tires before I saw the light. Big fat tires are my friends and well worth their weight! So now I'm running Kenda Nevegals 2.35 in the front and 2.1 in the rear. If the 660 had fatter chain stays I'd probably have 2.35's in the rear also.
    Actuallly they had one set of that exact combo at my local shop, and I could get them fairly cheap, considering buying them as backup since you recommend them so highly. That's the tires you've got on in these pictures, right?

    http://forums.mtbr.com/showpost.php?...4&postcount=56

    looks good too......

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    yes that's them. I have the DTC compound tires. I run them 30psi in the front and 32psi rear. I honestly liked the tires better on my Crossrides, the 717's are too narrow. The only down side of those tires is they are heavy. Took a few rides to get use to the added weight.

    This is pretty much the the way the bike is now other than the skewers (got Hopes to match the hubs) and the peddles.


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    It does look good in all black. And the new XT cranks look great too. I went for a ride to night, the Crossmarks really transformed the ride, and I'm really happy with them. Still I'll try the Nevegals too, they will be a good choice for rougher trails.

    Do you do night rides? It's great fun! ... and the only option fro me at this time of year.... Got a NiteRider MiNewt X2, fantastic little LED light, you should check it out if you need one.

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    Jul 2004
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    Quote Originally Posted by TRricki
    I

    Do you do night rides? It's great fun! ... and the only option fro me at this time of year.... Got a NiteRider MiNewt X2, fantastic little LED light, you should check it out if you need one.
    I do..it's great fun.... I got an ARC HID for Xmas and got a Niterider Trinewt last friday... now it's daylight in the evening for me

  41. #41
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    Reputation: marks_bike's Avatar
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    Aug 2006
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    508
    I don't get out on night rides as much as I'd like. Work seems to always get in the way. I've only been out once this winter. My buddy has a skills trail with skinnies, teeter-totter, drops, berms and pump track that snakes around the wooded part of his property. Anyway, it's a fun place for night rides. A skinny is a lot harder in the dark.

    For a light, I have a Niterider (can't remember the model) halogen. It's only a 10 watt but plenty bright for me.

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