"Brilliant" XCL design?- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    "Brilliant" XCL design?

    I'll preface this post by noting that I fully expect to be skewered by the Chumba fans out there. Believe me, I wanted to be one of those fans, too, but it in the end it didn't happen.

    When looking into buying a new frame, I looked at several and the XCL was one of the leading contenders. I was encouraged by the reviews and by the willing participation in the MTBR forums by the Chumba employees. Over time, though, it became apparent that there were questions, specifically with regards to frame weight, which they were unwilling to answer.

    However, the thing that sealed the deal for me was the prominent quote on the XCL web page. I'm talking about the quote from the Mountain Bike Action review which states, "...It's hard to get over just how brilliant the design is".

    Now this is a very nice quote from a very favorable review of the XCL. The problem I have though is that if you read the review, you'll find that this quote has nothing to do with the frame. Instead, it is high praise for the design of the Fox Talas fork.

    Maybe others are willing to look past such a blatant misrepresentation, but I'm not. It makes me wonder about how truthful their other claims are. I'm probably missing out on a really nice frame, but there are other nice frames out there, too.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Low Speed Endos
    I'll preface this post by noting that I fully expect to be skewered by the Chumba fans out there. Believe me, I wanted to be one of those fans, too, but it in the end it didn't happen.

    When looking into buying a new frame, I looked at several and the XCL was one of the leading contenders. I was encouraged by the reviews and by the willing participation in the MTBR forums by the Chumba employees. Over time, though, it became apparent that there were questions, specifically with regards to frame weight, which they were unwilling to answer.

    However, the thing that sealed the deal for me was the prominent quote on the XCL web page. I'm talking about the quote from the Mountain Bike Action review which states, "...It's hard to get over just how brilliant the design is".

    Now this is a very nice quote from a very favorable review of the XCL. The problem I have though is that if you read the review, you'll find that this quote has nothing to do with the frame. Instead, it is high praise for the design of the Fox Talas fork.

    Maybe others are willing to look past such a blatant misrepresentation, but I'm not. It makes me wonder about how truthful their other claims are. I'm probably missing out on a really nice frame, but there are other nice frames out there, too.
    That is pretty funny. Me, I worry about anybody that takes MBA seriously.

    As for the XCL, who cares about what people think. Ride the bike and if you like it, buy it. If not, buy something else.
    Last edited by Trajan; 06-15-2007 at 11:19 AM.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Low Speed Endos
    Maybe others are willing to look past such a blatant misrepresentation, but I'm not. It makes me wonder about how truthful their other claims are. I'm probably missing out on a really nice frame, but there are other nice frames out there, too.
    That magazine in particular has somewhat questionable reviews. Very rarely do they say anything negative about the bikes they review...other than weight. That being said, they didn't complain about the 31 pounds of this bike, but did about the 30 pound RFX? I don't get it.

    Everybody has the right to their opinion and the XCL is not for everyone. If that "misrepresentation" bothers you so much, look elsewhere. There are so many great bikes out there, it's hard to miss getting a nice ride.

    Honestly, I have a harder time dealing with them calling the Talas a brilliant design...by who's standards? These are all opinions and YMMV.
    Extreme stationary biker.

  4. #4
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    I think you may have misunderstood what I was saying. I have no problem with the MBA review itself. It is what it is. I'm well aware of their reputation for overly positive reviews.

    My issue is with Chumba for taking a quote from the article that was clearly talking about a fork and presenting it in a manner that makes it appear to be praising the XCL frame.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Low Speed Endos
    I think you may have misunderstood what I was saying. I have no problem with the MBA review itself. It is what it is. I'm well aware of their reputation for overly positive reviews.

    My issue is with Chumba for taking a quote from the article that was clearly talking about a fork and presenting it in a manner that makes it appear to be praising the XCL frame.
    Yeh, a pretty crappy move that is aimed to deceive. Heck, I wonder if it is false advertisement.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Low Speed Endos
    I think you may have misunderstood what I was saying. I have no problem with the MBA review itself. It is what it is. I'm well aware of their reputation for overly positive reviews.

    My issue is with Chumba for taking a quote from the article that was clearly talking about a fork and presenting it in a manner that makes it appear to be praising the XCL frame.
    Okay, we have further investigated this issue, and I understand where you are coming from. In order to relieve any confusion we will change the quote.
    Last edited by CHUMBAevo; 06-15-2007 at 01:55 PM.
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  7. #7
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    I've read the review and it was very positive, which makes it so unfortunate that you chose to use that particular quote.

    The paragraph in question is clearly talking about the fork, in a section, which is clearly talking about the parts spec used on the bike being reviewed. You can parse that paragraph anyway you want to justify your use of the quote, but it's clear to me, and probably to most readers, that the comment is referring to the fork. To say otherwise seems a bit disingenuous to me.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Low Speed Endos
    I've read the review and it was very positive, which makes it so unfortunate that you chose to use that particular quote.

    The paragraph in question is clearly talking about the fork, in a section, which is clearly talking about the parts spec used on the bike being reviewed. You can parse that paragraph anyway you want to justify your use of the quote, but it's clear to me, and probably to most readers, that the comment is referring to the fork. To say otherwise seems a bit disingenuous to me.
    After further review, your point is understood, and we'll take the appropriate action.
    Last edited by CHUMBAevo; 06-15-2007 at 01:57 PM.
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by CHUMBAevo
    Anyhow, its just bikes. If your interested in a XCL, go ride one and see if my interpretation of the quote is justifiable -- if you want to continue to accuse me of disingenuity in a public forum I think you probably need to go on a ride anyway. Simmer down now! Remember what this sport is about, its not about online attacks, making accusations on personal character, its supposed to be fun -- thats what draws people into it, let's keep it that way!
    Very nicely handled...

  10. #10
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    I didn't ignore the reasons you provided, I just didn't find them very convincing. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this matter since I don't think either of us will persuaded from our views.

    Let me finish by saying I'm not here to engage in online battles. I don't consider anything I posted to be an attack - personal or otherwise. I'm here to learn more about the mountain biking sport I enjoy so much. That is what has drawn me to the MTBR forums and that is what will keep me here.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by CHUMBAevo
    After further review, your point is understood, and we'll take the appropriate action.
    I guess my most recent follow-up crossed paths with yours. I commend you on your decision.

  12. #12
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    Alan

    If you want, you can quote me...

    I believe the XCL is a brilliant frame design. It will also get you laid.

    Extreme stationary biker.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by geolover
    I believe the XCL is a brilliant frame design. It will also get you laid.
    Not according to my wife it won't...

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by chucko58
    Not according to my wife it won't...
    Not what she told me....

    ok, you set yourself up for that. I apologize.
    Extreme stationary biker.

  15. #15
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    The funny thing is, if were Ellsworth that did something like this there would have been at least 5 pages of replies bashing them by now.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by BillT
    The funny thing is, if were Ellsworth that did something like this there would have been at least 5 pages of replies bashing them by now.

    Than I guess Ells shouldn't have done so "many" under handed things. As it is, I guess just one or so can be called a mistake, and left at that.

  17. #17
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    I gotta agree with LSE on this. Totally misrepresented quote.

    But I gotta hope it was either a careless error or lapse in judgement because knowing the Chumba guys there's no way they'd go out and try to be deceptive. Just doesn't fit with the character of their staff.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackagness
    Than I guess Ells shouldn't have done so "many" under handed things. As it is, I guess just one or so can be called a mistake, and left at that.
    Exactly

    As an Ellsworth owner (current and past bikes) Ill say it gets a little frustrating listening to constant quality control issues of these very, very expensive frames. Either your constantly getting ripped on by non-ellsworth owners or wondering if you got one of the "bad ones"

  19. #19
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    That was quick! The new quote on the XCL page is unmistakably about the bike itself.

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    Its all fixed. We have the best customer service. Even if it comes down to changing things.
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  21. #21
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    Nice work alan and jason. I'll say this and this is echoed by multiple EVO owners.
    "We can't get over just how brilliantly the EVO is designed" and it truly is now a standard by which other 6" frames are compared to.

    On the XCL...

    I read the article and the quote just seemed to fit in with character of the of the XCL since it rides so well but I see LSE's point.

    I guess LSE's issue regarding the weight issue and the supposed non- disclosure is really difficult to deal with because so many manufacturers get creative about issuing their frame weights and comparing one's claim against other manufacturers' claims might would be like comparing apples to oranges.

    My ex-epiphany without shock weighed 5 lbs and my XCL without shock comes in at 6 lbs. 1 lb difference. But, I also had to have 5 epiphanies come in for warranty claims for 5 broken rocker arms in less than 6 months of riding. From the way the XCL is built I don't believe I'll have any warranty claims for years to come. The XCL may not always be the first on top but the XCL will keep on riding and riding fast!

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by tonycan
    Nice work alan and jason. I'll say this and this is echoed by multiple EVO owners.
    "We can't get over just how brilliantly the EVO is designed" and it truly is now a standard by which other 6" frames are compared to.

    On the XCL...

    I read the article and the quote just seemed to fit in with character of the of the XCL since it rides so well but I see LSE's point.

    I guess LSE's issue regarding the weight issue and the supposed non- disclosure is really difficult to deal with because so many manufacturers get creative about issuing their frame weights and comparing one's claim against other manufacturers' claims might would be like comparing apples to oranges.

    My ex-epiphany without shock weighed 5 lbs and my XCL without shock comes in at 6 lbs. 1 lb difference. But, I also had to have 5 epiphanies come in for warranty claims for 5 broken rocker arms in less than 6 months of riding. From the way the XCL is built I don't believe I'll have any warranty claims for years to come. The XCL may not always be the first on top but the XCL will keep on riding and riding fast!
    Fisrt of all, sorry to hear about the Epi issues. It was originally on my short list before I decided on the XCL. As far as the topic of this thread, I guarantee you if you go to any
    manufacturers website you will likely find something thats hyped up a bit to try to sell the
    product. I'm one of those people who skims articles rather than pay attention to every
    nuance, so even though I did read the review, I didnt catch the part L~L was talking about.
    I think they all do this to a certain extent, whether it was deliberate misrepresentation
    I wont speculate and its been changed anyway. I guess my point is, whether good or bad, nearly every company has been guilty of overzealous marketing at some point.
    I think Chumba's error is probably an innocent one, but regardless, these guys are very
    responsive to input from the forums ( as we saw), and I dont know of any other company
    that stays as involved with the mtb community as these guys.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Low Speed Endos
    I didn't ignore the reasons you provided, I just didn't find them very convincing. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this matter since I don't think either of us will persuaded from our views.

    Let me finish by saying I'm not here to engage in online battles. I don't consider anything I posted to be an attack - personal or otherwise. I'm here to learn more about the mountain biking sport I enjoy so much. That is what has drawn me to the MTBR forums and that is what will keep me here.
    While you certainly have a valid point, your refusal to consider the XCL because of a "misrepresentation" seems shortsighted. Reviews and ads peek one's interest in a product. However, any comptent consumer will try the product, if possible, before buying. At the very least, the consumer will ask others who sell and use the product what they think of the product. While I have seen an XCL and EVO on the trail, I have never ridden either bike. However, the riders of both bikes gave glowing reviews. While I have a very nice bike from a small but highly regarded builder, the XCL is at the top of my list for a new bike. However, any decision I make on the XCL will be made after a test ride(s) and my own investigation, not what is written about the XCL in ads and reviews.

  24. #24
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    You know, in defense of LSE, I think I too would have a problem with a dishonest company. If I'm going to fork over my hard earned cash on a frame I want a reputable, trustworthy builder that operates with integrity. I think LSE point is that he wouldn't consider a bike made by a dishonest builder even if it's a great riding frame.

    For the record, I think Chumba's a great company with great people and great products. I think this episode was a mistake and a good learning experience for them. For us, we see another example of how responsive they are to us as a community.

  25. #25
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    LSE on the right track

    LSE was correct in pointing out the misplaced quote and like you I believe it was an overzealous but honest mistake. But i guess when people make mistakes they run the risk of being called to task in a harsh way.

    Anyway, all's well that ends well, I hope.

    As for the weight issue, better to be beefy than to be sorry. Especially when things like the attahced photo happen during a ride downhill.
    Last edited by tonycan; 06-19-2007 at 12:14 AM.

  26. #26
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    Yow, that's a nasty break!! Looks like it could have been avoided if they'd only left a little more material on the lower side of those rockers.

    Good thing my XCL doesn't have anything that looks that flimsy.

  27. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by chucko58
    Yow, that's a nasty break!! Looks like it could have been avoided if they'd only left a little more material on the lower side of those rockers.

    Good thing my XCL doesn't have anything that looks that flimsy.

    It should be said that Ellsworth has sense changed the design so the new ones should not be having this problem.

    Now if any of us can figure out why Tony keeps waiting for things to break before we fixes them or why Ellsworth in general likes to deny the problems for as long as possible

  28. #28
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    What do you expect on a bike designed for weight weenies?

    Being a clumsy Clyde myself, I'm happy the XCL has some extra beef where it counts.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Low Speed Endos
    I didn't ignore the reasons you provided, I just didn't find them very convincing. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this matter since I don't think either of us will persuaded from our views.

    Let me finish by saying I'm not here to engage in online battles. I don't consider anything I posted to be an attack - personal or otherwise. I'm here to learn more about the mountain biking sport I enjoy so much. That is what has drawn me to the MTBR forums and that is what will keep me here.
    i hope im not the only one to catch the amazing irony of these statements.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by happy_ending
    i hope im not the only one to catch the amazing irony of these statements.
    I guess you can't be critical of someone without being accused of attacking them.

    If you had read my comments in their original context, you'd understand that my response was quite measured. The problem is that you can't read them in that context because CHUMBAevo edited his original posts and removed all of his previous comments. Although I'm sure that CHUMBAevo didn't intend it that way, what remains gives the impression that the quote on the web page was changed as soon as the discrepancy was brought to their attention and that I was over reacting.

    As I said before, I commend the Chumba guys for making the change. I think the new quote is just as strong and without controversy.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Low Speed Endos
    I guess you can't be critical of someone without being accused of attacking them.

    If you had read my comments in their original context, you'd understand that my response was quite measured. The problem is that you can't read them in that context because CHUMBAevo edited his original posts and removed all of his previous comments. Although I'm sure that CHUMBAevo didn't intend it that way, what remains gives the impression that the quote on the web page was changed as soon as the discrepancy was brought to their attention and that I was over reacting.

    As I said before, I commend the Chumba guys for making the change. I think the new quote is just as strong and without controversy.
    i definitely noticed your response was "measured", hence my above post. sorry, but one just has to question your motives for starting this thread in the first place. i read the review and noticed the same quote b/c i had been researching the talas at the time (so it caught my brain) and also have seen the quote several times on the website... for whatever reason, i just never put the two together... and had i noticed i certainly wouldnt have started a thread regarding said gaff. but to each his own.... just gotta wonder.

    anyhow, i think ill go ride my xcl this evening and continually remark to myself how brilliant the design is... and how much i like the talas too!

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChumbaJason
    ... We have the best customer service. Even if it comes down to changing things.
    We make it happen here at Chumba.
    Can you help out chucko58 then ?~?

    Quote Originally Posted by chucko58
    Not according to my wife it won't...

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by All Mountain
    Can you help out chucko58 then ?~?
    ChumbaJason, you're on your own for this one!

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by All Mountain
    Can you help out chucko58 then ?~?
    ChumbaJason has been very helpful... but he ain't gettin anywhere near my wife!

  35. #35
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    Damn, it's deja vu all over again. Many years ago Ellsworth intentionally misquoted articles on their website, then when called on it, they changed their website and called us liars.

    Interesting to see how history keeps repeating itself. Maybe it's just something common with horst link manufacturers.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    Damn, it's deja vu all over again. Many years ago Ellsworth intentionally misquoted articles on their website, then when called on it, they changed their website and called us liars.

    Interesting to see how history keeps repeating itself. Maybe it's just something common with horst link manufacturers.
    I think it's just marketing, spin, and the normal bs. But making the Tony E comparison is, in my opinion, unjustified. I think the Chumba guys did the right thing here and the original poster seems satisfied with the response.

  37. #37

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    I think it was skimmed by one of us in excitement about the article in MBA and we got overzealous and called up the web editor and told him to put it on the XCL link. Just an honest mistake. We are all personable and we appreciate any quick editing advice. Please feel free to PM me if you see anything wrong we are here to work towards perfection.

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