'07 5 inch travel XCL!- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    '07 5 inch travel XCL!

    Ano Black, oh my God!





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    Sweet lord!!!

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    What size? Looks sick.

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    Medium-It's sweet! The hardware looks so nice and the full black ano on the swingarm is off the hook. Little details like the "CHUMBA XCL" on the top tube is way cool, and the head badge.
    Also the bottom part of the swingarm is different, so you can fit a 2.5 tire in there without deflating it first.

    Sweet

  5. #5
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    That is one clean looking frame.

    Most that rode it didn't seem to care that the previous version was 4.5 or so. But I think some people got turned off by the numbers on paper. So the travel bump to 5" is a good thing!

    Oh, and the ano and fine attention to detail certainly doesn't hurt.

    Great job Chumba!

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    I don't see the slight change in travel to be very relevant. The suspension action on the XCL is so good to start with. But I'm sure it won't hurt either. IMHO you will never get anything that feels "bottomless" on any bike of this caliper, but rather riders will appreciate a smooth and sensitive action with at least some feedback on what's going on under their tires. Sorry for the OT...
    I will never admit that black frame is sexier than mine, even though it might, to some extent, be true...

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bone Collector
    I don't see the slight change in travel to be very relevant.
    Oh, I totally agree. I'm just saying some folks make a big deal out of a half inch. That may be the deal killer for them. But I agree with you.

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    Wow. So far I think I like the black color best. Still waiting to see the gray....

    What size shock is on the XCL?
    Extreme stationary biker.

  9. #9
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    I like the way the seattube brace turned out. I liked the look of the other one without it, but the new one turned out nice.


    Let's see her built up!

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    SO are the XCL's very available or are they we just gonna see one or two here and there for a while still?

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    Quote Originally Posted by TIMBERRR
    SO are the XCL's very available or are they we just gonna see one or two here and there for a while still?
    I was told there are a few 07's around that were made in house. The first batch of outsourced XCL's will be out at the end of the month. The outsourced frames have some improvements over the earlier in house made 07 XCL's.
    Extreme stationary biker.

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    Sounds intriguing... Chumba folks, any official word about these additional improvements?

    I could see one of these as an early 50th birthday present.

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    '07 XCL info

    The frames us dealers are getting right now are sort of "beta" frames. They are straight gauge tubing and the cable routing needs to be sorted out. There may be a few other minor differences. It is not yet time to publish a weight for the new frame.

    I like that the logos on the Ano frame are laser etched. It is the only way to make logos on an ano frame. Decals don't stick well to an ano frame, you really dont want to clear coat over them, and they look terrible very fast.

    I have one built up right now, I will post pics and a ride report after this weekend, I want to do a little side by side comparison.

    On thing that does not come across well in pics is the HUGE tubing diameters. One reason the frame needs an e-type derailleur is that the seat tube is bigger than 34.9 diameter, which is bigger than the biggest front derailleur clamp. The seatpost brace is big diameter, too, it really stands out to me.

    While it is easy to compare this bike to a Motolite or other Mac Strut bikes, the comparison brakes down fast when you see the XCL in person. The XCL is by far the beefiest looking Mac Strut frame I have ever seen.

    Another nice touch that I liked was the size of the yoke at the top of the seatstays - it is much narrower. The limiting factor on tire size is still the chainstays, so tire size is not affected. But my calves hit the old yoke. This one is no problem.
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by DirtDad
    ............
    While it is easy to compare this bike to a Motolite or other Mac Strut bikes, the comparison brakes down fast when you see the XCL in person. The XCL is by far the beefiest looking Mac Strut frame I have ever seen.........
    DirtDad, so what defines a Mac(pherson?) Strut from other bike shock setups, and how does that effect the ride?

    I thought the shocks were eyelets on one end and clamped to the chassis on the other, other than that, and I may be wrong here too, I am clueless.

    Ignorance is truely bliss.

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    Good q

    Quote Originally Posted by jSatch
    DirtDad, so what defines a Mac(pherson?) Strut from other bike shock setups, and how does that effect the ride?
    I am not sure I can define it, but I can identify one when I see it. It is where the rear shock is in line with the seat stays, and no upper rocker arm to create a complete 4-bar. The pivot at the rear of the shock may not be there at all, it may just be there for additional support without changing much about the action of the suspension, or it can provide additional leverage so you get more rear travel per shock stroke. They can be made very lightweight due to the simple linkage, and the rear pivot can be in various places. Suspension action depends a great deal on the location of the rear pivot. Generally, I consider these more sophisticated than a single pivot, but execution is everything.

    Examples are the XCL, Titus Motolite, Yeti 575, Amp B-3/4/5 (I am dating myself), Titus Racer-X. I am sure there are others.

    Titus licenses FSR for the rear pivot, Yeti uses an....interesting...bit of flexing composite on the seatstay for a pivot, Amps were (DUH) Horst links designed by Horst himself, I believe, and the XCL is the FC2 variant of the Horst linkage, of course.
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    Hey Dirtdad, I am considering getting an xcl and was wondering how to go about getting a qr for the seat post. I recall you getting one from Syntace for your Evo. There is nowhere in Canada that I am aware of that sells a qr for the Evo. I am assuming the seat tube diameter is the same on the XCL.as the Evo? Thanks.

    The new XCL ano black is deadly.

  17. #17
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    DKG and Hope make QR seatpost collars that will fit. 38.1 diameter, I think you can get those in CAN.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bbc
    DKG and Hope make QR seatpost collars that will fit. 38.1 diameter, I think you can get those in CAN.
    bbc, is there a way you could measure the actual seat angle to see what it is on the 07s ?
    I'm trying to make a decision and want to be sure that the geometry is going to be ok.
    The black ano does look very nice. I wonder if there will be any weight savings going with
    the ano over paint. Will the ano frames cost more ? Do you know when some will be
    available ?

  19. #19
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    bbc, is there a way you could measure the actual seat angle to see what it is on the 07s ?
    I'm trying to make a decision and want to be sure that the geometry is going to be ok.
    The black ano does look very nice. I wonder if there will be any weight savings going with
    the ano over paint. Will the ano frames cost more ? Do you know when some will be
    available ?
    These are good questions for ChumbaEVO. I believe the new frames are going to be a lot lighter than the previous versions. The seat tube angle is 73 degrees on the black ano.

  20. #20
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    Syntace QR

    Quote Originally Posted by ronny
    ... xcl ...qr ...from Syntace...There is nowhere in Canada that I am aware of that sells a qr...

    The new XCL ano black is deadly.
    We ship Syntace worldwide, the Syntace is our favorite in any size.

    The Ano black rocks for sure
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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by DirtDad
    ................Titus licenses FSR for the rear pivot, ....... I believe, and the XCL is the FC2 variant of the Horst linkage, of course.
    WOW, lots of info there. Thank you!

    It was because Titus licenses out the FSR (4-bar, Horst) linkage that I assumed that it was a 4-bar linkage on the Titus Moto Lite. FC2 varient for the XCL, , you just flew over my head again.



    BYW, when does Spec's patent run out on this design? Somewhere in these posts I heard sometime next year, but I thought patents were good for 17 years. Has it been that long already? Yea!

    Blah, blah, blah ...............
    Last edited by jSatch; 04-12-2007 at 11:07 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jSatch
    ........ Maybe at this location on the bike this configuration gives the most linear (least circular) wheel travel (vs shock travel). This is, of course, the essence of the linkage.

    One way to check this could be to take the air out of the shock and mark the direction of the wheel travel and compare it to a true FSR design.

    ......Blah, blah, blah ...............
    Just wondering if the additional 1/2 inch or so in the new XCLs is due ot a variation in the 3-bar hanger to yield more shock travel at the expense of getting a more circular wheel travel (deflection?), or is a different shock utilized?

    Again, a way to compare the two bikes might be to mark travel direction (deflection) with the shocks deflated.

    I'd be surprised if no one has compared different bikes in this aspect.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by bbc
    These are good questions for ChumbaEVO. I believe the new frames are going to be a lot lighter than the previous versions. The seat tube angle is 73 degrees on the black ano.
    The Anno XCLs will be available in early May, I would recommend booking one with your local LBS pretty soon, we've pre-sold over half of the first batch.

    -A.
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  24. #24
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    Also, a little bird told me the XCLs should be coming in at the 5-6lb. range, but I will have the exact weight soon.
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    Avoiding a thread jack, so...

    I am going to start another thread on this in this forum...
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    Quote Originally Posted by CHUMBAevo
    The Anno XCLs will be available in early May, I would recommend booking one with your local LBS pretty soon, we've pre-sold over half of the first batch.

    -A.
    That is one bewdiful frame you have created.

    Those tubes are huge.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by CHUMBAevo
    Also, a little bird told me the XCLs should be coming in at the 5-6lb. range, but I will have the exact weight soon.
    5 to 6 lbs?! Really? That seems really light? Are the new XCL's made of balsa wood?

    PS - Email heading your way.
    Extreme stationary biker.

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    Q R Question

    Just note that you want a QR in your order. At your local dealer.

    Jason

    WWW.CHUMBARACING.COM




    Quote Originally Posted by ronny
    Hey Dirtdad, I am considering getting an xcl and was wondering how to go about getting a qr for the seat post. I recall you getting one from Syntace for your Evo. There is nowhere in Canada that I am aware of that sells a qr for the Evo. I am assuming the seat tube diameter is the same on the XCL.as the Evo? Thanks.

    The new XCL ano black is deadly.
    Last edited by RacinJason; 04-12-2007 at 08:00 AM.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by geolover
    5 to 6 lbs?! Really? That seems really light? Are the new XCL's made of balsa wood?

    PS - Email heading your way.
    Yeah that's prrreeeety light Geo! Mabye even paper machet?

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    Whats the advantage of going with the DHX over the rp23 ? Is there going to be a choice
    between the 2, or is the DHX better suited for this frame ?

  31. #31
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    I bet that weight is without the DHX installed.. The shock itself is a pound..

    Geo, Balsawood is porky!!

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by le_buzz
    Whats the advantage of going with the DHX over the rp23 ? Is there going to be a choice
    between the 2, or is the DHX better suited for this frame ?
    Differences:

    DHX Air has a larger air volume, it is the same as the RP23 with a big can upgrade

    DHX Air has adjustable compression damping, bottom out, and more Propedal settings, but no easy propedal on/off switch as on the RP23

    DHX Air is 1/2 lb heavier than RP23.

    Either are good for the XCL, it depends on if you like all the compression damping adjustment. If you find yourself wanting to play with sag (increase it or decrease it) to get the feel you want, then the DHX will definitely be better. You should leave sag at 25% and adjust compression damping, but you can't do that with the RP23.
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    So does the Chumba have a pivot seatstay/chainstay? Hard to tell from the pics.

    Question remains is how well the linkage configurations compare.
    Last edited by jSatch; 04-12-2007 at 11:10 PM.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by jSatch
    I looked up the Horst linkage. Man, am I dumb. So the rear pivots at the drop-outs are ‘pivotal’ to the linkage alowing the chainstay/seatstay angle to decrease upon impact, the shock position seems less critical. Sorry.

    So the Chumba with a non-pivot seatstay/chainstay is considered a 3-bar linkage?

    Question remains is how well the other linkage configurations compare.
    Shock position is critical as well.
    Extreme stationary biker.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by jSatch
    I looked up the Horst linkage. Man, am I dumb. So the rear pivots at the drop-outs are ‘pivotal’ to the linkage alowing the chainstay/seatstay angle to decrease upon impact, the shock position seems less critical. Sorry.

    So the Chumba with a non-pivot seatstay/chainstay is considered a 3-bar linkage?

    Question remains is how well the other linkage configurations compare.
    Horst Link.

    The number of bars is really meaningless....

    It's the tuning that goes into a HL that defines a good one or a bad one. The presence of a Horst Link does not make it necessarily any better than a single pivot.


    Really most designs are either just Multi-Link or Single Pivot

    Multi-Link have 2 pivots between bottom bracket and rear axle

    Single Pivots have 1 pivot between bottom bracket (could be forward of bottom bracket like Heckler) and rear axle

    Multi-Pivots are generally short links or long link

    Short links are like DW, VPP, Maestro and Long Link is like Horst Link

    Horst Links can be built with rockers (like Ells) or mac-strut (like Titus)

    Single Pivots can be built with rockers (like Kona) or mac-strut (like Jamis)

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by DirtDad
    Differences:

    DHX Air has a larger air volume, it is the same as the RP23 with a big can upgrade

    DHX Air has adjustable compression damping, bottom out, and more Propedal settings, but no easy propedal on/off switch as on the RP23

    DHX Air is 1/2 lb heavier than RP23.

    Either are good for the XCL, it depends on if you like all the compression damping adjustment. If you find yourself wanting to play with sag (increase it or decrease it) to get the feel you want, then the DHX will definitely be better. You should leave sag at 25% and adjust compression damping, but you can't do that with the RP23.
    Have you tried the RP23 on the XCL?

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    Huummmmmm.......this XCL looks interesting. The shock mount, swing link and few other details are different.

    I heard a nasty rumor of Chumba out sourcing to Taiwan, could this be the new Taiwan chumba?

    any info chumbaevo?
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  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by duke777
    Huummmmmm.......this XCL looks interesting. The shock mount, swing link and few other details are different.

    I heard a nasty rumor of Chumba out sourcing to Taiwan, could this be the new Taiwan chumba?

    any info chumbaevo?
    Taiwan XCL's are not out yet (please hurry). A major benefit of these being outsourced is the XCL will be cheaper this year. I think this is great for Chumba. It makes the XCL more approachable to many consumers...that's a good thing for Chumba and fans of Chumba.

    edit: it is my understanding, you can get any bike Chumba makes custom built in their shop for a little extra dough...if that is important to you.
    Extreme stationary biker.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by DirtDad
    I am not sure I can define it, but I can identify one when I see it. It is where the rear shock is in line with the seat stays, and no upper rocker arm to create a complete 4-bar.

    I believe the shock would have to be integrated into the seatstay to be a real Macpherson Strut and is technically a 3 bar suspension (e.g. old Titus Racer-X or the pull shock bikes like Turner Stinger). Any design that uses a upper linkage does have at least some movement off the direct seatstay path and would qualify as 4 bar.

    The new XCL looks sweet for sure but the e-type front derailleur would be a deal killer for me.
    Long Live Long Rides

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by All Mountain
    Horst Link.

    The number of bars is really meaningless....

    It's the tuning that goes into a HL that defines a good one or a bad one. The presence of a Horst Link does not make it necessarily any better than a single pivot.


    Really most designs are either just Multi-Link or Single Pivot

    Multi-Link have 2 pivots between bottom bracket and rear axle

    Single Pivots have 1 pivot between bottom bracket (could be forward of bottom bracket like Heckler) and rear axle

    Multi-Pivots are generally short links or long link

    Short links are like DW, VPP, Maestro and Long Link is like Horst Link

    Horst Links can be built with rockers (like Ells) or mac-strut (like Titus)

    Single Pivots can be built with rockers (like Kona) or mac-strut (like Jamis)
    Thanks AM!

    Realizing my complete ignorance in suspension linkages I did some research on the topic. Lot's of info out there, too much confusion and hype actually, but your post succinctly and clearly sums up the issues very nicely.

    Wish I read it first. It would've saved me lots of time.

    But back to the Mac-strut, which started my query. So is a mac-strut simply a direct stroke/compression linkage device vs a rocker where upward stroke yields downward compression? That is, if the shock is located between the seatstay and frame pivots (force yielding compression in same direction) vs if it is located outside of the seatstay / frame pivots (upward force gives downward compression).

    Thanks for clearing all this terminology up.

    Cheers
    Last edited by jSatch; 04-13-2007 at 10:24 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by geolover
    Taiwan XCL's are not out yet (please hurry). A major benefit of these being outsourced is the XCL will be cheaper this year. I think this is great for Chumba. It makes the XCL more approachable to many consumers...that's a good thing for Chumba and fans of Chumba.

    edit: it is my understanding, you can get any bike Chumba makes custom built in their shop for a little extra dough...if that is important to you.
    Geolover is right. We do offer bicycles made in-house, and bicycles made overseas, as well as in-house fabricated bicycles with custom geometry in every model and size.

    Geolover is also correct that limited outsourcing allows us to keep up with demand, keep prices reasonable, and deliver the most value to the consumer. The manufacturing facilities at the boutique companies we use overseas are very impressive -- and Ted stayed there throughout the entire manufacturing process to ensure that everything is up to the highest standards.

    Also, I want to make it clear that we are not a company that has little or no frame building or enginneering background that goes to an overseas manufacturer and picks a bike off the shelf and makes subtle aesthetic changes to it.

    Everything we've developed incorporates over ten years of manufacturing and frame building experience, technology, and intellectual property we've derived from running a national championship winning racing program. We have F4s, EVOs, and XCLs here that we've built from scratch, and when we do outsource, they follow the strictest guidelines on how to match our specs.
    Last edited by CHUMBAevo; 04-13-2007 at 11:15 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CHUMBAevo
    Geolover is right. We do offer bicycles made in-house, and bicycles made overseas, as well as in-house fabricated bicycles with custom geometry in every model and size.

    Geolover is also correct that limited outsourcing allows us to keep up with demand, keep prices reasonable, and deliver the most value to the consumer. The manufacturing facilities at the boutique companies we use overseas are very impressive -- and Ted stayed there throughout the entire manufacturing process to ensure that everything is up to the highest standards.

    Cool! So how do we know which one is made in house and which one is from Taiwan?
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    Quote Originally Posted by duke777
    Cool! So how do we know which one is made in house and which one is from Taiwan?
    The frames are labeled.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CHUMBAevo
    The frames are labeled.
    That's all? a little made in Taiwan sticker on the bottom?

    It would be nice if you guys can have some distinguishable difference between the Taiwan version and the US version.

    Why not call the in house version Chumba Racing instead of just Chumba for the Taiwan version.

    Kinda like toyota and lexus or honda and acura.
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  45. #45
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    If the frames are all made to Ted's design, does it matter whether it comes from Taiwan or O.C.? And if outsourcing means more people get to ride XCLs, isn't that a win for everyone?

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    Quote Originally Posted by chucko58
    If the frames are all made to Ted's design, does it matter whether it comes from Taiwan or O.C.? And if outsourcing means more people get to ride XCLs, isn't that a win for everyone?
    Sure, it doesn't matter that our nation's trade deficit is beyond astronomical, and people don't have jobs here to buy anything. Everyone wins right?

    Quick question, what do you do for a living? Would you appreciate someone out source your job overseas and we all jump in joy because it saves us 2 bucks?
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    Quote Originally Posted by duke777
    Sure, it doesn't matter that our nation's trade deficit is beyond astronomical, and people don't have jobs here to buy anything. Everyone wins right?

    Quick question, what do you do for a living? Would you appreciate someone out source your job overseas and we all jump in joy because it saves us 2 bucks?
    Just to let you know, we've been able to hire more Americans here since we've been outsourcing since we're now able to keep up with demand and produce bikes -- again, Ted is overseas overseeing everything, just imagine him multiplied by six now.

    Also, we plan on continuing the quantities of US made bikes as we've always done, so nobody is losing a job, like I said, we've only had to hire more people for bike assembly and production management.

    By adding value for our consumers, getting them on a high end boutique bike that performs equally as well if not better than most $2,000 + frames, frees up money for the American consumer to spend on other areas of the economy. If you are the average American making 30-40,000K a year with a mortgage and kids, I think that you would also appreciate being on one of the best bikes, not sacrificing anything in quality and performance, and being able to take your savings and spending it on other areas.
    Last edited by CHUMBAevo; 04-13-2007 at 05:11 PM.
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  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by duke777
    Sure, it doesn't matter that our nation's trade deficit is beyond astronomical, and people don't have jobs here to buy anything. Everyone wins right?

    Quick question, what do you do for a living? Would you appreciate someone out source your job overseas and we all jump in joy because it saves us 2 bucks?
    Ya know unemployment is, and has been at or below 5% for some time... which has historically been considered basically full employment.

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by duke777
    Sure, it doesn't matter that our nation's trade deficit is beyond astronomical, and people don't have jobs here to buy anything. Everyone wins right?
    That horse left the barn a loooooong time ago. Just try to live in the US today using only US made goods. It's not possible. Best thing you can do to help the trade deficit is stop using (foreign) oil.

    Quick question, what do you do for a living? Would you appreciate someone out source your job overseas and we all jump in joy because it saves us 2 bucks?
    I happen to work for a US Gov't contractor. But I work in a field where high-paying US jobs are being outsourced to (e.g.) India. So yeah, I get your drift.

    My point was amply illustrated by CHUMBAevo. Chumba Racing sure benefits from outsourcing. I bet they'd have a hard time finding enough skilled bike fabricators in O.C. to keep up with the demand if they didn't. And how is it not a win for MTBers?

  50. #50
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    I tried to stay out of this, but...

    Quote Originally Posted by blackagness
    Ya know unemployment is, and has been at or below 5% for some time... which has historically been considered basically full employment.
    Manufacturing is like a lot of businesses in the US, it got taxed and regulated away. You can't make the old arguments about overseas manufacturing being shoddy, paying bad wages, or running enviro-unfriendly operations. They make great stuff, they pay fair, and they are clean.

    Especially here in Calfiornia, our politicians worked hard to get those filthy, environment destroying smokestack industries out of the state. No more GM Fremont, no more Ford, no more Ellsworth, you can't expect a fledgling bike maker like Chumba to buck the trend AND stay in business.

    Most Americans want manufacturing to leave the country. They vote that way. They elect lots of green politicians. If we want those operations to come back, we have to educate people and write letters to our congress people. Making consumers feel guilty or getting them to "do the right thing" and buy something twice as expensive is not going to change anything. People will vote with their pocketbooks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by chucko58
    That horse left the barn a loooooong time ago. Just try to live in the US today using only US made goods. It's not possible. Best thing you can do to help the trade deficit is stop using (foreign) oil.

    I happen to work for a US Gov't contractor. But I work in a field where high-paying US jobs are being outsourced to (e.g.) India. So yeah, I get your drift.

    My point was amply illustrated by CHUMBAevo. Chumba Racing sure benefits from outsourcing. I bet they'd have a hard time finding enough skilled bike fabricators in O.C. to keep up with the demand if they didn't. And how is it not a win for MTBers?
    I definitely agree with you on outsourcing is not complete evil but everything in moderation is what the good doctor said. All I'm saying is that if it's outsourced then it better be cheap and good like giant reign for 299 at wheels world.

    I work in IT and like you said I've seen 100k jobs got shipped overseas. And because of my job in IT I know with the new technologies corporate America can outsource virtually anything overseas. I recently heard some thing about people taken Xrays here and have it reviewed overseas by doctors in india, we all should be afraid of loosing out jobs if that's true and I know it's VERY possible and easily done.

    They are very sophisticated right now(thanks to us) not the sweat shop by any means. In fact friend of mine is in the import business and he said that factories in China is cleaner, nicer and more sophisticated than factories in US.

    But if you guys think it's not a big deal then who am I (not your average american) to say anything.

    That being said I also think there are positives in outsourcing i.e. lower price for everyone. Although it's not Chumba's reputation(use to be custom only and recently boosting about all made in anaheim) but they are charting into new territories.

    Bottom line is what I said earlier if Chumba is going to out source then be honest and communicate that to everyone then make it cheap and good!

    Hope they keep the in house frame lines for those people who has the luxury of affording a frame that's made with passion and not just another product. If I have to go to another brand that makes bikes because they love making bikes and love riding not just to go big and make big money then I will.
    Last edited by duke777; 04-13-2007 at 06:04 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DirtDad
    Manufacturing is like a lot of businesses in the US, it got taxed and regulated away. You can't make the old arguments about overseas manufacturing being shoddy, paying bad wages, or running enviro-unfriendly operations. They make great stuff, they pay fair, and they are clean.

    Especially here in Calfiornia, our politicians worked hard to get those filthy, environment destroying smokestack industries out of the state. No more GM Fremont, no more Ford, no more Ellsworth, you can't expect a fledgling bike maker like Chumba to buck the trend AND stay in business.

    Most Americans want manufacturing to leave the country. They vote that way. They elect lots of green politicians. If we want those operations to come back, we have to educate people and write letters to our congress people. Making consumers feel guilty or getting them to "do the right thing" and buy something twice as expensive is not going to change anything. People will vote with their pocketbooks.

    Green is the last bastion of communism PERIOD!

  53. #53
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    ...

    Quote Originally Posted by duke777
    I definitely agree with you on outsourcing is not complete evil but everything in moderation is what the good doctor said. All I'm saying is that if it's outsourced then it better be cheap and good like giant reign for 299 at wheels world.

    I work in IT and like you said I've seen 100k jobs got shipped overseas. And because of my job in IT I know with the new technologies corporate America can outsource virtually anything overseas. I recently heard some thing about people taken Xrays here and have it reviewed overseas by doctors in india, we all should be afraid of loosing out jobs if that's true and I know it's VERY possible and easily done.

    They are very sophisticated right now(thanks to us) not the sweat shop by any means. In fact friend of mine is in the import business and he said that factories in China is cleaner, nicer and more sophisticated than factories in US.

    But if you guys think it's not a big deal then who am I (not your average american) to say anything.

    That being said I also think there are positives in outsourcing i.e. lower price for everyone. Although it's not Chumba's reputation(use to be custom only and recently boosting about all made in anaheim) but they are charting into new territories.

    Bottom line is what I said earlier if Chumba is going to out source then be honest and communicate that to everyone then make it cheap and good!

    Hope they keep the in house frame lines for those people who has the luxury of affording a frame that's made with passion and not just another product. If I have to go to another brand that makes bikes because they love making bikes and love riding not just to go big and make big money then I will.
    I can vouch that Ted and everyone at CHUMBA loves riding and making bikes, in fact, Ted rides more and harder than anyone I know -- and he still builds a good number of our bikes by hand till this day, even though he has the option not to. We've rode together at Dusy Ershim (a level 9-10 jeep trail in Central California) and slept with our bikes and sleeping bags under the stars for days last year-- I don't know too many other frame builders who are that hardcore. He rides what he builds, and he is the man behind the company and all the bikes, and he's probably the most passionate mountain biker I ever met - not to mention - a genuinely nice guy.
    Last edited by CHUMBAevo; 04-13-2007 at 07:12 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CHUMBAevo
    I can vouch that Ted and everyone at CHUMBA loves riding and making bikes, in fact, Ted rides more and harder than anyone I know -- and he still builds a good number of our bikes by hand till this day, even though he has the option not to. We've rode together at Dusy Ershim (a level 9-10 jeep trail in Central California) and slept with our bikes and sleeping bags under the stars for days last year-- I don't know too many other frame builders who are that hardcore. He rides what he builds, and he is the man behind the company and all the bikes, and he's probably the most passionate mountain biker I ever met - not to mention - a genuinely nice guy.
    Yeah I know Ted loves riding and love designing bikes and he still may make some bikes. I fortunately have the luxury of affording higher end bikes. That being said I also have the appreciation of someone physically building the bike not for money but for the love of building them, in essence I'm not buying just a bike but also a piece of art. If that's not possible then I'll just get the giant reign for 299 at wheels world, great bike and killer price is what outsourcing all about right?

    "Boutique" is what chumba use to be and they are changing directions to more corporate and there is nothing wrong with that, it's your business after all. The reason I feel some what strongly towards outsourcing by Chumba is that you guys use to tout that these bikes are made locally in Anaheim and mostly in house unlike many competitors, and the quality definitely showed. With out clearly declaring(at least not to my knowledge) changing of direction I feel like I got bait and switched. It is really hard to find anyone in any business now and days with true honesty and integrity. Like you said they do a great job of building the frames so what do you have to hide? I would be boosting every chance I get since I have kept the quality and lower the price so more people can afford it.

    I guess what I'm looking for is honesty, integrity and communication. Again it's just me and it looks like there is only one of me on this thread...oh well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by duke777
    I work in IT and like you said I've seen 100k jobs got shipped overseas. And because of my job in IT I know with the new technologies corporate America can outsource virtually anything overseas. I recently heard some thing about people taken Xrays here and have it reviewed overseas by doctors in india, we all should be afraid of loosing out jobs if that's true and I know it's VERY possible and easily done.
    Now I get your problem, your against sharing the wealth of the US with poverty stricken countries. Wasn't going to participate in this blatant thread jack but man that is a really narrow view of the world. When you economy was built on trade with others how can you be angry when others trade back???

  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by walrasian
    Now I get your problem, your against sharing the wealth of the US with poverty stricken countries. Wasn't going to participate in this blatant thread jack but man that is a really narrow view of the world. When you economy was built on trade with others how can you be angry when others trade back???
    LOL nope I'm not angry, if we are exploiting poverty stricken countries like taiwan(although all my friends from Taiwan are driving BMW and Benz) then we should do it right, make it really cheap and squeeze every penny out of those poor sweatshop workers.

    And since I'm also Asian like you(assuming from your screen name) I would like to keep my money in my pocket or at least in the neighborhoods around me. Yes I'm very selfish!

    BTW I don't think anyone think/know they are poor until they are told so. Honestly what's wrong with living off the land if you are happy? Only happiness matters right?......Nahh.....I want my F$%# Benz now and it better be bigger than my poverty stricken Taiwanese friends' Benz!
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    Ha Ha this is some great stuff. What I am about to say is in no way intended to bash anyone’s beliefs. Everyone’s is entitled to there own opinions. I do understand where everyone is coming from.
    You should know that a Haas CNC unit is automatic there are no hands or workers handling them at all other than to clamp the aluminum in the Vice. The thing even changes heads automatically. To have Ted walk around supervise a group of up to six or more of the units overseas rather than here is no a big deal.

    You may have been watching too much TV with all this talk about sweat shops and exploiting. That is only my opinion. Have you been there?
    They are more refined than we are in many ways.
    We have one unit and that makes turning out frames a little slow. If we had 6+ CNC units here it would cost hundreds of thousands of dollars. Even if we did fork out that kind of money we would not have to hire a load of people so to run them anyways. It would still be the same thing just in a different location. I don’t see how the employment part fits in.

    Now for the Quality we will always have strict quality control. I personally check everything that I send out. But before that happens it is inspected many times.

    With the volume of bikes we will be able to produce at an affordable price we will have to take on more employees just to help ship them and set them up.

    Come take a look at the frame and you tell me what you think.
    I am sure you will love them. Who knows you might even pick one up for your self.

    I will ride the new Chumba bikes any day over anything else that is out there.

    BTW there are bikes that claim to be US made that we have seen in the Taiwan plant getting machined. I will not disclose that info to be fair to the bike companies. We are not out to slander anyone. We are here to make great bikes. Now ride and have fun. All this typing is taking time away from my riding somehow.

    Now let’s leave this topic on a positive note.

    Check out the next issue of Mountain Bike Magazine. I think you will like what you see.



    Jason

    Can't we all get along.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChumbaJason
    BTW there are bikes that claim to be US made that we have seen in the Taiwan plant getting machined. I will not disclose that info to be fair to the bike companies. We are not out to slander anyone. We are here to make great bikes. Now ride and have fun. All this typing is taking time away from my riding somehow.

    Now let’s leave this topic on a positive note.
    Can't we all get along.
    You are dead on with all this taking time away from riding or messing with our bikes. But my EVO is sick and it's been cared for so I can ride next weekend. Plus I gotta go to the Long Beach Grand Prix this weekend anyways.....can't ride. So this has been quite entertaining!
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  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by jSatch
    WOW, lots of info there. Thank you!

    It was because Titus licenses out the FSR (4-bar, Horst) linkage that I assumed that it was a 4-bar linkage on the Titus Moto Lite. FC2 varient for the XCL, , you just flew over my head again.



    BYW, when does Spec's patent run out on this design? Somewhere in these posts I heard sometime next year, but I thought patents were good for 17 years. Has it been that long already? Yea!

    Blah, blah, blah ...............
    Patents are valid for 20 years from application date since 1995. I believe that the first Horst Leitner patent (there are 2 of them) was applied for in 1997, which would make the patent expire in 2017. I could be wrong, but that's what I remember last time I checked it.
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    May seem like a dumb question but if you make the tubes very large diameter don't you end up with very thin walls

    And then your into the problem Cannondale had - not enough impact strength, although the bike is stiff, you crash it or a big rock flies up, you end up with a dent!

  61. #61
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    Mostly the seat tube

    Quote Originally Posted by Zodiac
    May seem like a dumb question but if you make the tubes very large diameter don't you end up with very thin walls...you crash it or a big rock flies up, you end up with a dent!
    Mostly Chumba made the seat tube bigger. It is still smaller than the down tube and top tube, and those are where you usually get dents.

    After watching loads of suspension frames break on the seat tube (go visit the Ellsworth forum if you want bunches of examples), I agree with Chumba's design. They do not have any pivots mounted to the seat tube of their bikes. And the tube is as big as they can get away with. The seatpost collar is 38.1 mm. The common "large" tubing is 34.9 mm. And their seat tube has to narrow down to get to the 38.1 size. It is way too big for any puny clamp on a front derailleur. You gotta see it in person, it is a great looking design.
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  62. #62
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    Well as a European bike buyer I'll give another view on this outsourcing thing...

    American goods end up being quite expensive here, especially considering the current currency rates. However our local Chumba importer was able to lower the price of the XCL from ~1800€ to ~1500€ due to the lower pricing. This put it in my price range, and I'll probably be buying one next week.

    So what is happening is that I (like a lot of others probably) will end up helping that whooping deficit of yours grow a bit smaller...

    So things are not quite that simple. Even though less of an American buyers money will end up staying in the country, you will surely have a lot more foreign buyers making a purchase, and this will end up helping your economy.

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