Results 1 to 42 of 42
  1. #1
    mtbr member
    Reputation: David R's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    2,090

    Angleset; Works vs Cane Creek vs ??

    I want to add an angleset to my bike (Knolly Endorphin), I'd prefer the Cane Creek one as they offer a ZS upper and EC lower for my 44/56 head tube but almost everyone seems to go for the Works Industries ones. I don't mind the stack height as I usually run a 10mm spacer under the stem, but ideally I want to lose as little reach as possible and the Works one will move the stem back further. I've read a few stories of the CC ones being noisy, but surely there's a solution to that? Any other options out there?

  2. #2
    mtbr member
    Reputation: minimusprime's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    659
    works for sure. I've never seen a cc angleset that didn't creek like a bastard. the works units are solid.

  3. #3
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    291
    MY works is solid but I do notice the loss of reach. I have a -2 for the longest heat tube it is available and I think it is a 5-8mm offset. Never used a cane creek.

  4. #4
    pvd
    pvd is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation: pvd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    3,312
    Works is not a good product.

    Go with Angleset. They work great.

  5. #5
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Posts
    136
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd View Post
    Works is not a good product.

    Go with Angleset. They work great.
    Can you expand on that? I've heard more often that the Angleset creaks and Works work great. Why do you say Works is not a good product?

  6. #6
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    114
    I have a works -1 on my HD3. Works great. It had very little effect on my frames reach measurement because the whole frame tilts a little bit due to the fork being relocated. I was able to make up the difference just by rotating the handlebar slightly. Mine has also proven perfectly reliable after several hard days in the bike park and a long muddy enduro. I would definitely recommend it.

  7. #7
    Ride On
    Reputation: geraldooka's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Posts
    839
    Works are great, I run 3 of them with zero issues including one on my Endo. I run low sweep bars so have not had any loss in reach in fact I have more reach now with a 7deg then when I was running a 9deg bar.

    They also use commonly available bearings.

  8. #8
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    1,154
    Dig my works headset. Only downside is the stock upper bearings go a bit quick if you ride in a wet environment. Easy and cheap to replace though.

    Not a bad idea to buy some spares if you choose Works.
    1983 Ritchey Everest
    1996 Bianchi Mega Tube ti
    1996 Ibis Mojo Ti
    2012 Ibis Mojo HD
    2015 Kona Process 153

  9. #9
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Posts
    1,144
    I had an angleset for a few years on a downhill bike. I found Teflon tape (that white plumbers tape) wrapped around those gold gimbles did the trick for reducing noise. I don't have a Works angleset but I do have their reach adjust headset...pretty damn solid.
    Intense 951 Evo and Intense Carbine 29

  10. #10
    pvd
    pvd is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation: pvd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    3,312
    Quote Originally Posted by acedeuce802 View Post
    Can you expand on that?
    There was a production problem on the very first Anglesets to market. It was fixed quickly but people don't know much about the product online. The system is fine and works well.

    Anglesets work on more configurations and setups with minimal investment over time. The choices are vast. It's really the only choice for the serious tuner.

    The Angleset is properly engineered. I'm not a dumb guy and I still don't understand how the Works system works.

  11. #11
    Elitest thrill junkie
    Reputation: Jayem's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    30,047
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd View Post
    The Angleset is properly engineered. I'm not a dumb guy and I still don't understand how the Works system works.
    Are you serious? It's quite simple. The cups are angled. If you install it backwards, it would steepen your HA by the same amount. Count me in for the ones that had to get rid of the POS FSA stuff due to creaks.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  12. #12
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    438
    I had an angle set on a single speed (so I was not riding it as hard as a big travel bike), it worked well as in it was smooth and never came loose to the point of felling it get clunky but it did make noise.

  13. #13
    pvd
    pvd is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation: pvd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    3,312
    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    It's quite simple.
    That's not the point. I'm talking on an engineering level.

  14. #14
    Elitest thrill junkie
    Reputation: Jayem's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    30,047
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd View Post
    That's not the point. I'm talking on an engineering level.
    Well what is it that you donít understand?
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  15. #15
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    114
    The difference between the cane creek design and the works design is pretty simple. The cane creek is machined with a fixed offset and a ball and cup interface on either end to take up the difference in the angle. This means the actual change of angle varies with head tube length. The works cups are machined at a fixed offset and angle, which means each headset can only fit a certain length head tube or the angle of the bearing will be incorrect. On the works headset you get exactly the angle desired but each set must match the frame making it less flexible for switching to a new bike. The works design is cheaper, stiffer because of the lack of ball pivots, and far less likely to creak. Itís simply a better design

  16. #16
    pvd
    pvd is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation: pvd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    3,312
    Quote Originally Posted by Lic-Niner View Post
    Itís simply a better design
    Obviously.

    I would agree if I had a headtube within 0.5mm of the "as engineered" length. I'm pretty sure that almost nobody has that. I put a lot of work into head bearing alignment and this throws all that out the window.

    The Cane Creek design works on any head tube length or with other misalignment. It is simply, engineered properly.

  17. #17
    pvd
    pvd is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation: pvd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    3,312
    It's funny. I've done a lot of work with Anglesets since they came out. I have a legitimate track record with bike design. Everyone that recommends the Works headset are anonymous internet typists. Do you folks have any evidence of your builds that would lead me to believe that you understand this subject?

  18. #18
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    114
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd View Post
    It's funny. I've done a lot of work with Anglesets since they came out. I have a legitimate track record with bike design. Everyone that recommends the Works headset are anonymous internet typists. Do you folks have any evidence of your builds that would lead me to believe that you understand this subject?
    As a career machinist I can tell you that the theoretical misalignment youíre concerned with is not a real issue. Just for the sake of explanation I did a quick mock-up in my CAD system based on the works -1 ec44/zs56 set 3 headset I use. It covers a 110-119 head tube length, and the horizontal difference in bearing center from one extreme of the size range to the other is .006Ē or so. There will be some variance since I donít have access to the real blueprints. The vertical misalignment of the bearing is 1/10,000th of an inch. I really doubt any bike frame is made that precisely. The tiny bit of slop in the bearing will make up for it, and the compression ring of the headset will handle much more misalignment than that.

    Iíve been riding my works headest in bike parks for 2 years, and it has been flawless the whole time while outliving a frame and the Fox 36 fork it was holding together.

    My favorite LBS now recommends the works headset to their customers because they donít want to have their customers coming back with creaking ball and cup headsets all the time. Thatís good enough for me to be convinced

  19. #19
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    1,154
    I understand that the works headset works. It's cheaper than the cane creek Angleset by a wide margin & is silent.

    *Less Expensive
    *Quiet
    *Does what it's made to do.

    I don't care to understand more than that because it's a moot point for the above reasons.
    1983 Ritchey Everest
    1996 Bianchi Mega Tube ti
    1996 Ibis Mojo Ti
    2012 Ibis Mojo HD
    2015 Kona Process 153

  20. #20
    Ride On
    Reputation: geraldooka's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Posts
    839
    Quote Originally Posted by Lic-Niner View Post
    As a career machinist I can tell you that the theoretical misalignment youíre concerned with is not a real issue. Just for the sake of explanation I did a quick mock-up in my CAD system based on the works -1 ec44/zs56 set 3 headset I use. It covers a 110-119 head tube length, and the horizontal difference in bearing center from one extreme of the size range to the other is .006Ē or so. There will be some variance since I donít have access to the real blueprints. The vertical misalignment of the bearing is 1/10,000th of an inch. I really doubt any bike frame is made that precisely. The tiny bit of slop in the bearing will make up for it, and the compression ring of the headset will handle much more misalignment than that.

    Iíve been riding my works headest in bike parks for 2 years, and it has been flawless the whole time while outliving a frame and the Fox 36 fork it was holding together.

    My favorite LBS now recommends the works headset to their customers because they donít want to have their customers coming back with creaking ball and cup headsets all the time. Thatís good enough for me to be convinced
    Drop the

    Nice.

  21. #21
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    1,196
    I used the Works on a previous bike. Zero problems, no creaking and gave me the results I wanted. I do like Cane Creek with everyone says they creak and are finicky to set up so I went with the cheaper route. I also got great customer service from Works in my order since one of the cups wasn't listed as in stock at the time I wanted to order but they found me one.

  22. #22
    pvd
    pvd is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation: pvd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    3,312
    Quote Originally Posted by Lic-Niner View Post
    As a career machinist...
    Yeah. 0.006" bearing misalignment is customary.

  23. #23
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    31
    Quote Originally Posted by Lic-Niner View Post
    As a career machinist I can tell you that the theoretical misalignment youíre concerned with is not a real issue. Just for the sake of explanation I did a quick mock-up in my CAD system based on the works -1 ec44/zs56 set 3 headset I use. It covers a 110-119 head tube length, and the horizontal difference in bearing center from one extreme of the size range to the other is .006Ē or so. There will be some variance since I donít have access to the real blueprints. The vertical misalignment of the bearing is 1/10,000th of an inch. I really doubt any bike frame is made that precisely. The tiny bit of slop in the bearing will make up for it, and the compression ring of the headset will handle much more misalignment than that.
    I use to design and build angled headsets similar to the WC ones for personal use and I also sell some versions for nonstandard head tube sizes that aren't commercially available elsewhere, and I can confirm all the above.

  24. #24
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    31
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd View Post
    Yeah. 0.006" bearing misalignment is customary.
    Bearing misalignment would be a problem with standard radial bearings properly pressed in place. Chamfered headset bearings with 45į and 0.1mm diameter clearance behave more like the ball&socket system of CC but don't creak. A 0.006" misalignment of the cups (not the bearings!) merely tilts the bearing 0.01 degrees from the cup.

    Now if we want to criticize the IS standard I'm totally on board. I'm actually considering to try something like this:
    https://www.pinkbike.com/news/intend...ss-review.html

  25. #25
    mtbr member
    Reputation: David R's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    2,090
    Interesting discussion. I messaged Works yesterday and they're aiming to have a ZS44/EC56 like I wanted in my original post out by the end of summer (presumably Northern Hemisphere summer). I'll hold off until then I think.

  26. #26
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    114
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd View Post
    Yeah. 0.006" bearing misalignment is customary.
    Since thatís the whole range of motion itís +/-.003Ē. Thatís better than the tolerances on most assemblies. But even then, thatís not the part that matters. An angle headset is intentionally offsetting the bearing by something like 1/4Ē, so if thatís off by .003Ē your head angle change is then off by 1/100th of a degree, which is totally irrelevant and closer than the frame will be made anyway.

    The part that does matter is that the bearings still sit flat in the conical seats so they are loaded evenly, which at .0001Ē variation, they certainly will. Nobody is even going to be able to machine an aluminum headset cup that flat anyway.

  27. #27
    pvd
    pvd is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation: pvd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    3,312
    This sounds like all those people that kept saying that Chris King headsets were so great for years. "The best" they kept saying. Ignoring the facts. Ignoring not only the engineering flaws but the obvious results.

    Ok. You guys don't care about bearing alignment or bike performance. I do and do a lot of work to make the front end work as well as possible. My portfolio is also on display, unlike what has been offered here. That is our difference.

  28. #28
    pvd
    pvd is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation: pvd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    3,312
    Quote Originally Posted by David R View Post
    ...they're aiming to have a ZS44/EC56...
    Angleset has all the sizes and have for years.

  29. #29
    mtbr member
    Reputation: minimusprime's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    659
    FWIW, my local bike shop, which is one of the most knowledgable and prolific shops in southern california, implores it's customers to buy the works headsets when they are wanting an angle changing head set. They have had nothing but continuous problems with the CC anglesets and will procure them if the customer really wants them, but they are very up front that in their experience, you'll only get a few weeks creek free at most.

    I know several in my riding crew that have tried the cane creek unit... all of them have abandoned them and most have replaced with works units with many hundreds (and in most cases thousands) of problem free miles.

  30. #30
    Elitest thrill junkie
    Reputation: Jayem's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    30,047
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd View Post
    My portfolio is also on display, unlike what has been offered here. That is our difference.
    ok.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  31. #31
    mtbr member
    Reputation: minimusprime's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    659
    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    ok.
    One difference was left out... one of you too thumps his chest and posts like an internet badass. The other provides helpful anecdotal opinions with context.

    I'll let the general intertube guess which is which.

  32. #32
    pvd
    pvd is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation: pvd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    3,312
    I usually completely disregard anonymous voices on the internet. If someone has to hide their identity or their portfolio, they aren't the voices worth listening to.

  33. #33
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    114
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd View Post
    I usually completely disregard anonymous voices on the internet. If someone has to hide their identity or their portfolio, they aren't the voices worth listening to.
    I may not have,need or want an online portfolio, and I donít often post here unless it offers me an opportunity to learn or teach some useful information, but I took time out of my day to do the math and explain how an angle headset without ball joints can function correctly when you said you didnít understand it. Now youíre just trying to bully down dissent with youíre supposed reputation based on assembling a few bikes, while still not grasping the fact that because headset bearings sit on self centering cones they do not require perfect concetricity. They require parallelism between the bearing seats and to be reasonably perpendicular to the steerer tube. But by all means, continue to disregard and insult everyone who tries to help you learn something. Iím sure that will get you far in life.

  34. #34
    Elitest thrill junkie
    Reputation: Jayem's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    30,047
    Quote Originally Posted by minimusprime View Post
    One difference was left out... one of you too thumps his chest and posts like an internet badass. The other provides helpful anecdotal opinions with context.

    I'll let the general intertube guess which is which.
    Well, I suppose you can believe the one guy without a works component headset, or all of us that posted our stories.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  35. #35
    Make some music
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    732
    No luck from Works on ec56.
    J.O.R.B.A. More than just tm. WWW.JORBA.ORG

  36. #36
    Make some music
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    732
    Quote Originally Posted by David R View Post
    Interesting discussion. I messaged Works yesterday and they're aiming to have a ZS44/EC56 like I wanted in my original post out by the end of summer (presumably Northern Hemisphere summer). I'll hold off until then I think.
    As per a previous poster on another thread, I heard the same thing in 2015. As per email w/ Works the answer today is basically "no". They supplied me with links to the ec44/zs56 options.
    J.O.R.B.A. More than just tm. WWW.JORBA.ORG

  37. #37
    mtbr member
    Reputation: David R's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    2,090
    hmm. Maybe they meant summer 2019...

  38. #38
    Make some music
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    732
    Quote Originally Posted by David R View Post
    hmm. Maybe they meant summer 2019...
    I can't imagine it's that hard to make when they are already making the other configs. I think I may ask them to make said ec56.... straight out..
    J.O.R.B.A. More than just tm. WWW.JORBA.ORG

  39. #39
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    123
    Iíve used both and would go with the works over the cane creek. I donít like the crazy high pre load I had to Use to keep the cane creek quiet. Eventually I did get some success when I used retention compound to lock the gimbals in place. The two works headsets I have have been zero issues the whole time.

    Al

  40. #40
    Elitest thrill junkie
    Reputation: Jayem's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    30,047
    Quote Originally Posted by allen mueller View Post
    Iíve used both and would go with the works over the cane creek. I donít like the crazy high pre load I had to Use to keep the cane creek quiet. Eventually I did get some success when I used retention compound to lock the gimbals in place. The two works headsets I have have been zero issues the whole time.

    Al
    Do you have an online portfolio?
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  41. #41
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    123
    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Do you have an online portfolio?
    LOL, no but I hope PVD can believe me since I use my real name.

    Al

  42. #42
    No Clue Crew
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    5,964
    I donít have an online portfolio, whatever that is. Iím just a dude who rides bikes.

    Iíve owned both a CC Angleset and a Works headset. Both did the job I bought them for. The Works was cheaper and awesome quality. The CC began creaking early on and only diminished after plumbers tape and a bunch of torque.

    If I were buying one today it would be Works without question. And I have absolutely so engineering or machinist experience to back up that opinion.
    Just like a raindrop, I was born to fall.

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 2
    Last Post: 06-17-2011, 05:20 AM
  2. 1 1/8" Cane Creek Angleset Campaign
    By MqtRider in forum 29er Bikes
    Replies: 16
    Last Post: 05-24-2011, 01:22 PM
  3. Cane Creek Angleset on a Socom???
    By BlueRidgeRider in forum Intense
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 03-09-2011, 06:12 PM
  4. Who has the best price on the Cane Creek Angleset?
    By KYMtnBkr in forum Where are the Best Deals?
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 03-02-2011, 07:57 PM
  5. Cane Creek 1 1/8'' Angleset
    By Nick CW in forum Turner
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 02-19-2011, 05:54 AM

Members who have read this thread: 150

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

THE SITE

ABOUT MTBR

VISIT US AT

© Copyright 2018 VerticalScope Inc. All rights reserved.