So I just don't get the attitude. You urban folk, chime in.- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    So I just don't get the attitude. You urban folk, chime in.

    Cal passed its 3 foot law. WA is talking about it. But FB friends of mine are all up in arms about how if bicyclists want more protective laws then they have to be licensed and/or have license plates. The logical connection escapes me. Two separate issues with different considerations. Not if A then B. Also, I was taken aback by the amount of anti-bike vitriol the concept of these new laws seems to create, even in ordinarily pretty nice people. I just don't get it.

    I have not lived in a larger metro area since the late 90's. So what is up?

  2. #2
    I'd rather be on my bike
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    Cyclists are hated. Plain and simple. We are doing something good for the environment, and healthy for ourselves, and they want to punish us for it. They hate that we ride on the road. They hate that we don't have to pay taxes or have license plates. My suggestion to them is if they hate it so much, maybe they should try it.
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  3. #3
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    Colorado has a 3 foot passing law. People did the same thing here. It's a useless law for the most part. It's damn near unenforceable without video evidence, even then LEOs don't really care (too much work). Registration and license plates for bikes were attempted in some places in CA during the 70s. Predictably the attempt failed.

    It's a matter of ignorance.

    Here's a quote from John Forester's, Effective Cycling (emphasis mine):

    "One kind of driver has special restrictions: drivers of motor vehicles must be licensed, may overtake on the right only under specified conditions, may not follow too closely, and may not race. These restrictions are imposed because motor vehicles can be extremely dangerous to other highway users. Cyclists do not have such special restrictions because bicycles are not as dangerous to others, but they do have the rights and duties of drivers of vehicles."

    Basically, the people complaining think cyclists are too stupid to understand the rules of the road. Yet, they forget that the majority of cyclists hold driver's licenses and, should know the rules of the road. Except most drivers are ignorant of the majority of road laws themselves.

    The problem is a lack of education for all road users and a lack of enforcement of minor traffic violations. The people who are supposed to enforce traffic laws are often the worst violators.

  4. #4
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    There's a lot of reasons (most of them bad reasons) that drivers hate cyclists. A lot of it is jealousy. Not so much that they want to be on a bike, but when we pass a line of traffic, cars get pissed. The only reason to get pissed about that is jealousy. They don't like that we can move faster than them. I regularly have cars try to block me when I'm passing stopped traffic on the right. There's also the prejudice they've formed from seeing many morons salmoning, blowing red lights and stop signs, etc. Your average driver can't tell the difference between someone who can't afford a car or can't get a license and has no other option but to bike vs. a cyclist who does it because they want to. Lastly, it's because American's can't be bothered to move over 3' for someone else. Laziness.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogbie View Post
    Basically, the people complaining think cyclists are too stupid to understand the rules of the road. Yet, they forget that the majority of cyclists hold driver's licenses and, should know the rules of the road. Except most drivers are ignorant of the majority of road laws themselves.

    The problem is a lack of education for all road users and a lack of enforcement of minor traffic violations. The people who are supposed to enforce traffic laws are often the worst violators.
    The irony being that many drivers hate cyclists because they see some bikes running red lights or stop signs, but if you sit at any intersection, you'll see driver after driver doing the same thing. How many cars come to a full stop at a stop sign if there's nobody coming? How many cars go through the red light at every light change? How many drivers speed? Don't use turn signals? Cut people off? But they get free passes from other drivers because they're all utilizing the same form of transportation.

  6. #6
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    PA has a 4ft safe passing law, it doesn't matter. I love it when a motorist argues that they pay taxes so the roads are theirs, like I don't pay taxes? It amazes me the attitude people have towards cyclists, trying to win them over is a no win battle. I do see some cyclists doing stupid things that even I would be annoyed about if I were driving, and some of the local club riders will take up the whole lane, just because they can. These things cause motorists to get angry at all cyclists.

    I was hit by a car while cycling in 2013, shortly after, my sister in law said to me, "that's why cyclists shouldn't ride on the roads", I had to walk away...

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by WCroadie View Post
    I was hit by a car while cycling in 2013, shortly after, my sister in law said to me, "that's why cyclists shouldn't ride on the roads", I had to walk away...
    I guess if women don't want to get raped then they shouldn't dress like they want it either, right? That's the logic she's using.

  8. #8
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    Yeah I know, as I said, it's a no win argument. I don't get it...

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Straz85 View Post
    The irony being that many drivers hate cyclists because they see some bikes running red lights or stop signs, but if you sit at any intersection, you'll see driver after driver doing the same thing. How many cars come to a full stop at a stop sign if there's nobody coming? How many cars go through the red light at every light change? How many drivers speed? Don't use turn signals? Cut people off? But they get free passes from other drivers because they're all utilizing the same form of transportation.
    That's the normalizing of illegal actions. For instance: motor vehicles cause ~33,000 deaths a year. In contrast, gun violence kills ~11,000/year. In the US there are 254 million registered vehicles and 310 million firearms. If there are more guns than cars and they cause less deaths, where is the outrage against death by vehicles? Which tool is more dangerous? One death per 7700 registered cars vs. one death per 28200 registered guns. I'll take a gun-nut over a car-nut, any day. (I realize there is a lot of cross over in ownership here. Generalizations rarely make good statistics. I think it's safe to say people are more responsible with guns than with vehicles.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Straz85 View Post
    There's a lot of reasons (most of them bad reasons) that drivers hate cyclists. A lot of it is jealousy. Not so much that they want to be on a bike, but when we pass a line of traffic, cars get pissed. The only reason to get pissed about that is jealousy. They don't like that we can move faster than them. I regularly have cars try to block me when I'm passing stopped traffic on the right. There's also the prejudice they've formed from seeing many morons salmoning, blowing red lights and stop signs, etc. Your average driver can't tell the difference between someone who can't afford a car or can't get a license and has no other option but to bike vs. a cyclist who does it because they want to. Lastly, it's because American's can't be bothered to move over 3' for someone else. Laziness.
    I've stopped passing cars on the right for two reasons: 1) It is extremely dangerous to pass on the right; 2) what you described above.

    Passing a line of stopped cars on the right forces all those motorists to pass you again in the next block. This is part of their aggravation towards cyclists. I know it's legal to do, but most motorists do not (in my experience they know barely enough to pass a license test). I'd rather not have to deal with more people passing me than is necessary. Even though I know the risk of a rear collision is smaller than any other type of collision.

    To each their own...

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunvalleylaw View Post
    So what is up?
    Drivers hate everyone. Cyclists are just a particularly visible target (no puns intended).

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Straz85 View Post
    The irony being that many drivers hate cyclists because they see some bikes running red lights or stop signs, but if you sit at any intersection, you'll see driver after driver doing the same thing.
    Here in Idaho, we have the Idaho Stop law which basically means a bicyclist treats a stop light as a stop sign, and a stop sign as a yield. In many ways it makes sense considering momentum, for flow of traffic. I am discussing this on my guitar forum and one of the things that is becoming apparent is that part of it is the changing ways people are using are streets and roads as costs of fuel, parking, etc. rise, and therefore the realities on the road are changing, requiring new infrastructure and adjusted rules of the road to adapt. Much like HOV lanes, special rules for public transportation, changing certain streets into walking malls or avenues, etc. All part of the changing landscape. So I guess those who don't consider any alternative to driving just plain do not like those changes, in addition to the nit-wits cyclists who push it or ride around with attitude. (thinking of that portlandia character). In Holland, to compare again, the culture is used to cyclists, the infrastructure is there, and the rules of the road are clear. Also, commuters there are pedaling around in their street clothes, not all messenger biked out bouncing off car doors and dumpsters like some bike warrior with attitude. (not that all bike messengers do that. Just making fun here. )

  12. #12
    I'd rather be on my bike
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    I think that cycling is finally gaining popularity here, and the country just doesn't know what to do with it. As mentioned above, other countries are used to cycling, and have adapted to meet the popularity. We are an advanced country, yet we are so far behind....
    The pedals turn, not just the left one, but the right one too.

  13. #13
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    It doesn't help that the law has effectively declared open season on cyclists.

    People do not get punished for killing one. Punishments are meted out in such a low percentage of cases that people just don't have any external incentive to respect us on the road. Even if they are entirely at fault, "I didn't see him officer" frequently gets the driver COMPLETELY off the hook. Not even a traffic citation.

    We need vulnerable user laws that ramp up the penalties for killing cyclists and pedestrians with your motor vehicle. We need law enforcement to enforce the damn laws already on the books where cyclists are concerned.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by TenSpeed View Post
    I think that cycling is finally gaining popularity here, and the country just doesn't know what to do with it. As mentioned above, other countries are used to cycling, and have adapted to meet the popularity. We are an advanced country, yet we are so far behind....
    Agreed. it is a changing landscape that has over the years slowly reduced the road open to single occupant cars. HOV lanes, special rules for public transport, changing certain streets into pedestrian walkways, and yes, bicycle lanes, infrastructure, and rules. (I know I repeat but it bears repeating). All these things are part of the changing rules of the road that are necessary because of what you just said, and because we are packed closer together than we used to be, and because more people are using roadways differently than they used to. So yes, new laws, new enforcement for all users, hopefully better infrastructure so the cars on the road are less impeded, etc., are all necessary. A problem to be addressed, hopefully without hatred. But as we discussed this here and in my guitar forum, I came to the answer to my question. Most people are motorists first and foremost. Many people on all sides are not educated and/or do not comply with existing law. Most of the existing motorists do not support change that they perceive takes away from "their" road. But at least in more congested areas, those problems will have be solved. And hatred and labeling does not get us there. 5 factors that have come out of the threads: 1, fear or feeling intimidated not knowing how to deal with passing, etc., 2, stereo-typing on both sides, 3, lack of education on all sides, 4, lack of proper infrastructure, and 5, bad actors among all users. Improving numbers 3 and 4 will over time, I hope, improve factors 1, 2 and maybe even 5, though there will always be idiots.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogbie View Post
    That's the normalizing of illegal actions. For instance: motor vehicles cause ~33,000 deaths a year. In contrast, gun violence kills ~11,000/year. In the US there are 254 million registered vehicles and 310 million firearms. If there are more guns than cars and they cause less deaths, where is the outrage against death by vehicles? Which tool is more dangerous? One death per 7700 registered cars vs. one death per 28200 registered guns. I'll take a gun-nut over a car-nut, any day. (I realize there is a lot of cross over in ownership here. Generalizations rarely make good statistics. I think it's safe to say people are more responsible with guns than with vehicles.)



    I've stopped passing cars on the right for two reasons: 1) It is extremely dangerous to pass on the right; 2) what you described above.

    Passing a line of stopped cars on the right forces all those motorists to pass you again in the next block. This is part of their aggravation towards cyclists. I know it's legal to do, but most motorists do not (in my experience they know barely enough to pass a license test). I'd rather not have to deal with more people passing me than is necessary. Even though I know the risk of a rear collision is smaller than any other type of collision.

    To each their own...
    As much as I'd love to debate gun control, I'm not going to here, because it would fast track this thread to getting locked.

    While I agree that passing a line of cars isn't the safest thing, I do it carefully and expect everyone to cut me off. As soon as the line of traffic starts moving, I won't pass anymore cars. Otherwise there would be several lights I would have to sit at for multiple light cycles. I live in a pretty highly populated suburban area right outside Boston, so during rush hour, most lights are backed way up.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Straz85 View Post
    While I agree that passing a line of cars isn't the safest thing...
    And the hip new thing in bikelane design is bikeboxes, which encourage it.

    Here's a video that my city produced (even though we don't have any of these things???):
    <iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/bRPVxLIO79I" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

    Bikelanes are obviously different from roads without bikelanes, but for the cities that have a lot of bikeboxes, I'd assume that cyclists would start to carry the same behavior over to the streets without them.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunvalleylaw View Post
    Cal passed its 3 foot law. WA is talking about it. But FB friends of mine are all up in arms about how if bicyclists want more protective laws then they have to be licensed and/or have license plates. The logical connection escapes me. Two separate issues with different considerations. Not if A then B.
    It's a straw man argument, I don't know where it got started but you are correct, there's no logical connection.

    Being safe, either as a motorist, cyclist or pedestrian, is a right that the 3ft law was written to protect. You can't (legally) take rights away.
    Driving a motor vehicle, due to the responsibility of handling its size, speed, and weight, is a privilege. You can take privileges away.

    I'm guessing deep down in the minds of the non-cyclist driver there's always the fear of loosing their driving privilege. If someone is going to take that away from them they want some power back knowing someone is able to take the cyclist's ability to bike away. The unfortunate truth is that as a driver it's very easy to take a cyclist's ability to bike away, just run them over.

  18. #18
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    I hate most cyclists with a passion. NO, I don't hate cyclists...a cyclist... knows how to ride.

    I mean I hate bike riders.


    I am always riding, and always on the road somewhere. But I stop at lights and crossings like I am supposed to. So many bike riding jackasses still run lights and go wrong way and all the crap which makes motorists seethe. gawd damn it just never ends.

  19. #19
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    As a driver with over a million miles a pedestrian, and cyclist I don't understand this resistance by drivers. I think most states that don't have a 3' rule do have a 'safe distance rule', so they should be at least 3' away in the first place as that seems to be a generally agreed upon safe distance. Defining a safe distance just clarifies an imprecise wording. Do they feel it is arbitrary as they have little idea of where the right side of their vehicle is? Some cars and trucks right side damage says a few have that problem. Or is it that it is now illegal to squeeze by whenever they think it is not too tight? Or that cyclists might pass them on the right with less than 3' of clearance but they can't do the same? There seems to be an idea that motorists "own the road" instead of the concept the have the privilege of using a public (all public) resource that they are required to share safely with other road users in a safe manner. Clarifying in traffic law what is agreed to be safe isn't really changing anything and is of little consequence for safe drivers.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by 127.0.0.1 View Post
    I hate most cyclists with a passion. NO, I don't hate cyclists...a cyclist... knows how to ride.

    I mean I hate bike riders.


    I am always riding, and always on the road somewhere. But I stop at lights and crossings like I am supposed to. So many bike riding jackasses still run lights and go wrong way and all the crap which makes motorists seethe. gawd damn it just never ends.
    I agree with your point about jackasses on bike, I see them all the time too, but saying you hate them comes across kinda harsh. And you've never rolled through a stop sign or traffic light, ever? I don't buy that.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by WCroadie View Post
    I agree with your point about jackasses on bike, I see them all the time too, but saying you hate them comes across kinda harsh. And you've never rolled through a stop sign or traffic light, ever? I don't buy that.
    Again, legal to do so in some states, including Idaho.

    Idaho stop - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

  22. #22
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    I think that there are assumptions by drivers when they see cyclists on the road. They have seen people run lights, stop signs, ride crazy, ride through traffic like they own the road. Then they see a real cyclist, and they don't know what to think. I have been waiting at a light, and a cyclist will blow the light, and I look over at the car in the lane to the left of me, and they look at me and I just shake my head. Yes, I have run reds before, at night, when there is no traffic. During the day, I follow the rules of the road as if I was a car. Neighborhood stop signs will get blown if there is nothing coming.

    People that do not ride simply do not understand. They never will until they ride on the road, and put themselves out there with us. Maybe then they will understand the 3' law.
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    Most people in capitalist society are selfish sociopaths. In addition to being car-free I am also vegan, and I get a flak and sh1t for that too. As long as people don't have to pay the true costs of their behaviors, they are able to act like that. To give one example at my work, I believe my insurance is 80-20. By this I mean I am forced to pay $80 a month for health insurance coverage and I believe this means I am only paying 20% of the cost and my employer the other 80%(or maybe it is 30-70, who knows). Now my co-workers are mostly sedentary and disgustingly unhealthy facks for the most part, many of them chain smoke, drink like sailors, over-eat, drink a pot of coffee day, etc. They do almost everything wrong in terms of health possible and still have to pay the same amount as a vegan with a total cholesterol of 136, who cycles almost everywhere he goes. Does that make any sense? If It was up to me I would only receive coverage for emergencies, because that is all want and instead of paying in, I would rather they just increase my salary and I work one less day a week, so I can enjoy life more. I bet alot of people would be jealous if I could choose to opt of unnecessary and dangerous so-called health plan and just get paid more and work less days.

    If people had to pay the true costs of what they do to the environment and in regards to their own health, they would have to change their behavior. Instead what will happen in a selfishness based society like ours, is they will fight to the death of their bodies and also wager the life carrying capacity of the biome they depend on to provide eco-system services like providing the proper oxygen to carbon ratio humans need to thrive, on their ability to externalize the self with useless possessions like disgusting cars which allow them to project wealth and act like royalty of sorts, who can for the most part avoid human locomotion to an unprecedented degree.

    There is an article about this:
    Daily Telegraph: Motorists have ruined England - and they need to pay the price
    In Singapore people actually have to pay something approaching the true costs of a motor vehicle, as shown in this blog post:
    Simpleboylife: Cost of owning a f**king car in Singapore!
    Again like I said, selfish Americans will destroy their bodies and the environment they depend on for undervalued eco-system services(precisely because these services are not expressed in dollars and thus have no valorization in a capitalist society), before they would ever voluntarily change. All measures that will demote the car as the artificial king of transportation through the same type of laws and economic measures that made them dominant mode of transportation in the first place will be fought against with fanatic zeal by most Americans. Even most American so-called "cyclists" will take the side of the motor vehicle too! Even on this forum most have x, y and z excuse why they need car to get everywhere they need to get to sustain their life and why the bicycle is just for when they feel like it or for joy-rides or for acting like a wannabe Lance.
    Last edited by RoyFokker; 09-11-2014 at 12:40 AM.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunvalleylaw View Post
    Again, legal to do so in some states, including Idaho.

    Idaho stop - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Yes I understand but 127.0.0.1 claims he stops at all lights and stop signs, so I assume in his state it's not legal to roll through. I agree it should be legal on a bike to slow and roll through a stop sign/light if no cars are around.

    Nobody comes to complete stops all the time, not on a bike, not in a car.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by WCroadie View Post
    Yes I understand but 127.0.0.1 claims he stops at all lights and stop signs, so I assume in his state it's not legal to roll through. I agree it should be legal on a bike to slow and roll through a stop sign/light if no cars are around.

    Nobody comes to complete stops all the time, not on a bike, not in a car.
    of course I blow some stops and lights...when there is zero chance of traffic 1000 yards from me.

    but when I adventure to places where it matters, such as mass ave in cambridge or downtown boston, or even in the suburbs like wilmington, lexington...etc. I follow the rules so all drivers can predict my actions based on what the traffic laws say.

    and if I am on a 'club ride' on the road I get over to the right and no double paceline or any of that jackassery either....

  26. #26
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    OK that sounds better, I wasn't trying to be a d!ck. I agree with you that there are a lot of cyclists who make us look bad by their jackassery, I have tried to explain to them how their riding makes us all look bad. Some are open to criticism, some argue. Oh well...

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    I have to call out this fair weather cyclist who in all likelihood is just after-all supporting his interests, which involve being behind the wheel of a motor vehicle:
    Quote Originally Posted by 127.0.0.1 View Post
    I hate most cyclists with a passion. .... So many bike riding jackasses still run lights and go wrong way and all the crap which makes motorists seethe. gawd damn it just never ends.
    The infastructure of the road as we know it today is built for motor vehicles. Bikes are not cars, they are not an over-size dangerous menace, spewing pollutants, promoting sedentarism and encouraging resource wars. There are few examples of people being killed by cyclists, here one of the rare examples by a Strava-tard:
    US cyclist who killed pedestrian guilty of vehicular manslaughter but escapes jail | road.cc
    A cyclist who does everything wrong like riding on the wrong side of the road, the sidewalk, through private property, past red lights is still less of menace to life, the environment and less of burden to the public health infastructure than a mythical good motorist. Yet the most conscientous driver because of the sheer mass of his vehicle and the lack of physical activity it engenders will always be a danger in all those same respects.

    The rules of the road are nothing other than transportation apartheid. It is discrimination against those too young to drive, too poor to drive and those too old to drive. Even walking across the street in the most efficient manner possible is categorized as jaywalking so that pedestrians are legally and corporally subordinated to the gluttonous, comparatively wealthy motor vehicle users. People like you are just ridicilous, stop spouting this good cyclists vs bad cyclists nonsense. If anything there is a large number of recreational and sport dilettantes like you who pose as cyclists by self identification but in all cases want to see the motor vehicle stay the king of road by continuing to perpetuate unfair tax structures, unfairly pass down hidden costs and laws. This good cyclist, good motorist versus bad cyclist, bad motorist slick canard popular amongst your ilk, hides the true dimensions of the problem at hand. Almost nothing I can do as a cyclist can make people feel as vulnerable as if the same act was done in the same proximity, but in a motor vehicle, which in the USA weighs an average of 2 tons. It is sheer physics.

  28. #28
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    What you do as a cyclist can make YOU and others vulnerable, lets say you are riding the wrong way down a road, the motorist swerves to avoid you and hits another car? That would be your fault. The rules/laws are in place so that cars and cyclists can use the roads safely.

    There are absolutely good and bad cyclists and the bad ones ruin it for the good ones.

    So having to be 16 or 17 to drive on the road is discrimination?

    I am having a hard time following your logic, that cars are bad, breaking the traffic laws while on your bike isn't that big of a deal and riding like a jackass is fine.

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    nested wrong again! Delete.

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    @WCroadie:
    So you are admitting that cars are what is deadly, not cyclists riding on the wrong side of the road. That is progress and more than what most of the flat-earth society of N. American weirdo so-called "cyclists" will admit.

    I am not saying that at even younger ages people should drive. But since the pedestrian, bicycling and public transit infrastructure is so horrible in most areas of the United States, what we have is transportation apartheid. You cannot get out and about effectively in many areas without a car and that is not fair to those too young, too old or too poor to drive. And it is not due to lack of money being spent, because we already too much on subsidizing the expensive, space wasting, public fund sucking and dangerous motor vehicle. It is time we frame this debate in its correct dimensions.
    Last edited by RoyFokker; 09-11-2014 at 09:30 AM.

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    OK, I get some of your logic Yeah I admit cars are deadly, In 2013 I was hit by a jackass who wasn't paying attention while behind the wheel and am still suffering the consequences. I used to commute 22 miles each way to work but can't anymore. I agree, 'Merica is severely lacking in public transportation, but it can be effectively done. I was just out in Colorado, their public transportation and trail system is awesome. They use street sweepers and plow the bike paths, the foster a healthy active lifestyle, more should follow their lead.

    I also believe there are people who ride and are a danger to everyone on the road, which can make motorists label all cyclists as jackasses and law breakers and say we don't belong on the road.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by WCroadie View Post
    I also believe there are people who ride and are a danger to everyone on the road, which can make motorists label all cyclists as jackasses and law breakers and say we don't belong on the road.
    Well good luck with that pipedream.

    As long as one driver sees one homeless dude riding on the sidewalk (even if it's legal, and it was 10 years ago, and it was on another continent), that driver will happily claim that all cyclists are asking for it.

  33. #33
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    Lol

  34. #34
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    You cant worry about things you cant control like other cyclists behavior and its impacts on shaping drivers image of ALL cyclists. Just ride.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by newfangled View Post
    Well good luck with that pipedream.

    As long as one driver sees one homeless dude riding on the sidewalk (even if it's legal, and it was 10 years ago, and it was on another continent), that driver will happily claim that all cyclists are asking for it.
    Trying to do my part to even this out. If they see that guy, then down the road, they see me following the rules of the road, and riding responsibly maybe it will even it out for them. Maybe they will at least consider changing their view on cyclists on the road.
    The pedals turn, not just the left one, but the right one too.

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    Delete. NESTING!

  37. #37
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    Argh!

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    @Tenspeed:
    Motorists are to the road what the racist white planters were in the South before the American Civil War. This has nothing to do with some misguided notion of acting like a global ambassador to cycling everytime you are on the saddle, as it will have no effect, it is not something logic or convincing can change. The user of the automobile is unfairly privileged legally, spatially and via the disbursement of public infrastructure funds. The bigots of the road must be campaigned against, rather than developing more of this class of "house cyclists".

    Anyway I am wasting my time typing here, since most of the flat earth society posting here are all likely very car dependent in real life.

  39. #39
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    I am car dependant (and now less than 200 lb! thanks to cycling) but a much more cyclist oriented one. And it rubs off. My wife, having heard my complaints of being passed in mid grade of a short hill with a stop sign at the crest (it is reckless driving to pass on a blind hill or where you cannot return to your lane before being less than 100' from an intersection in Indiana, so If I was hit and automatic license suspension). So she rode shotgun fending off the vehicle behind to get the cyclist safely through the intersection to where passing was quantum levels safer. The motorist who blocked traffic on the one lane bridge for one of us is another. One by one. One by one. Some will get this. Some never will.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoyFokker View Post
    @Tenspeed:
    Motorists are to the road what the racist white planters were in the South before the American Civil War. This has nothing to do with some misguided notion of acting like a global ambassador to cycling everytime you are on the saddle, as it will have no effect, it is not something logic or convincing can change. The user of the automobile is unfairly privileged legally, spatially and via the disbursement of public infrastructure funds. The bigots of the road must be campaigned against, rather than developing more of this class of "house cyclists".

    Anyway I am wasting my time typing here, since most of the flat earth society posting here are all likely very car dependent in real life.
    You know, there's really no use in you being on your high horse in every post you make. OK, so I don't ride my bike everyday to everything. I do more often now than just about ever, that's an improvement right? But if I get a flat and my brother is going to be around the university when I get out of class at 9:30 pm should I say " no, I will patch this and ride home "? It's just as well to say " sure, thanks, I'll patch this at home ".

    Some days I get out of class and have to be at work 12 miles away in twenty or thirty minutes, and I can't stretch that to forty because my boss needs me to be there. It's unfortunate but I have to work to pay for school, so I do it. I used to drive every day, but now I drive about two days a week. So I guess that counts for nothing? Hell yes it does. That's a lot less petroleum based fuel I'm using (and money I'm saying).

    OK, you bike more than me, cool. You don't own a car. Cool. That's great. I'm glad you're there, because I'm looking forward to it some day, but hopefully I won't have that holier-than-thou 'tude.

    And for the matter of how one shuttle commute by bike, I think the best option is for all drivers to get used to driving around bikes (because it may slow you down, but dang just leave earlier) and that cyclists follow the rules, too. I do that religiously. My attitude is that I have to do everything right so if things go wrong I don't have to worry about it. I didn't do anything wrong. Provided I don't die, that seems like a good plan.

  41. #41
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    I am car dependent. I ride when I can, but there are days where I drive to work, and to appointments and the normal stuff. Don't think that for one second, you are better than me because you are car free and I still have one. I will not be drawn into that argument, I simply will not. You will go on ignore before that happens.
    The pedals turn, not just the left one, but the right one too.

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    @NDD, TenSpeed:
    You better believe I will continue to call out the farcical joke that people who log more miles with their bike being hauled on a car to get to trail heads or group rides, totally separated from any type of daily needs or necessary activities, are calling themselves cyclists, when their primary mode of transport is actually the automobile. And that because of the laughable car-only transportation options in most of these USA, this large but vocal group is the real culprit, and the biggest reason why cycling is not promoted as a transportation option that deserve respect before the law and in the disbursement of infrastructure funds. What is really giving cyclists a bad name is nin-compoops who think because of marketing they need ultra-expensive spandex racing uniforms to even place their butts into a saddle, when in reality almost all of them cannot go fast enough to benefit from the reduced drag. This reinforces in the public the fact that the bicycle is a toy just for entertainment or for unnecessary sport, instead of the most viable and efficient transportation option. Instead what we have is mostly toy, fair weather cyclists, who maybe commute sometimes, who act like the problem is cyclists breaking rules, that were not made to cater to them anyway!

    I cycle to get things done, I can spot bs-ers. To make it viable I have to break the rules of the road, on this one major roadway with a 45 mph limit, meaning the cars are traveling of course 55+ mph, there is not a shoulder for a certain distance, but there is a sidewalk on the opposite side. You guessed it, I go ride on the sidewalk for that segment, because it is insanity to take a lane and gamble with your life that 55 mph cars will consistently slow down to your speed or swerve to avoid you. At times on that same high speed road, there is a shoulder only on one side, so sometimes I actually have to ride against traffic to enjoy the relative safety of the shoulder. If there is a red light and I see I can safely cross, I do so, because it is safer, faster and more efficient than waiting. I can imagine one day at a light some cellphone addict, if I am forced to wait, realizing in a panic that they didn't the transition to green 2 seconds fast enough and in a panic flooring it without looking ahead enough and pancaking me one day. If it were up to me, we would have a real cycling culture where cycling was treated with enough respect, I wouldn't have to resort to such measures of compensation and I would have dedicated Dutch like purpose built cycling infrastructure combined with local residential roadways that are mandated as thru-traffic only and limited to 15-20 mph. But that will never happen in North America, especially because by cycling, given the most common usage we really mean toy cycling not connected to anything of meaning outside of cardio or joy.

    @TenSpeed:
    After reading your inane posts, it would be an honor to be put on your ignore! Please do so.

  43. #43
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    Is this dude trolling or just an egomaniac?

    You have assumed many things about me and a lot of people here. In my case you've often been wrong. I honestly think you can't be serious anymore.

  44. #44
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    Anyway, I'm pretty sure the whole point about what's wrong with drivers perspective of cyclists comes from a couple of important things. No most are not the worst people you'll ever met. It's just that they have never done it at all or never honestly biked as though it were a vehicle for transport. They've also probably seen a bike rider/cyclist/dui-guy do some stupid stuff and now think all people on bikes are that.

    Maybe if they just tried it they'd get it? That's where I'm at on drivers.

  45. #45
    EAT MORE GRIME
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoyFokker View Post
    I have to call out this fair weather cyclist who in all likelihood is just after-all supporting his interests, which involve being behind the wheel of a motor vehicle:


    blah blah blah snipped
    hey whatever I am not a 'fair weather' cyclist, take your assumptions and stuff them

    I ride all day all night all weather all conditions and fight traffic and bears
    and have over ten years each with >20,000 pedaling miles under my belt.
    (that is over 40 miles per day every day) I freaking RIDE...do you ?
    been riding over 35 years as well....



    bike riders suck. CYCLIST's don't suck

  46. #46
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    I`m not 100% positive, but fairly certain that valium contains no meat products. It might be a good dietary addition for any vegan or veggie cyclists who feel a bit over anxious at times.

    Hope this is the right place to post- I considered the Bike Commuting News thread, but couldn`t find it.
    Recalculating....

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by rodar y rodar View Post
    I`m not 100% positive, but fairly certain that valium contains no meat products. It might be a good dietary addition for any vegan or veggie cyclists who feel a bit over anxious at times.

    Hope this is the right place to post- I considered the Bike Commuting News thread, but couldn`t find it.
    you need to post this in the 650b forum, doncha know

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    As a motorist and as a cyclist, I like the 3' laws. Its not clear to me why I should oppose bicycle registration as long as it is free, a license plate on the rear of a bike might make it more clear to motorists that I have a right to be on the road. If nothing else, registration might help in getting insurance claims after bike theft. I am open to well reasoned corrections on this.

    Arguments for cyclists breaking the rules of the road seem ill- placed here. Most jurisdictions claim that a bicycle on public roadways is to be considered a vehicle, with all rights and responsibilities pertaining thereto. Few motorists see it this way on high speed roads. I would love to know what we can do beyond visibility, predictability, sheer numbers, and bikeway legislation to improve our odds.

    Having spent time in traffic jams in major cities of the developing world, it is clear that we must have conventions/ norms about which side to pass on, regardless of mode of transport. Bicycles and mopeds loaded down with passengers, bananas, charcoal etc. are treated with no more respect in countries where they are the primary forms of transport than we are here.

    -offtopic- Much to Mr. Fokker's dismay, even an all bike culture of major city proportions would require dedicated lanes for cargo bikes, turns, and parking. Collisions would be typically at lower speed, but the level of injury may not be much less.

    Royfokker, if this is the argument you seek, or one of them anyway, please create a new thread. I will be more than happy to argue with you there, and I am sure I will not be alone.

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by 127.0.0.1 View Post
    you need to post this in the 650b forum, doncha know
    Come on, man. It belongs in the 29er forums.

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by 127.0.0.1 View Post
    I hate most cyclists with a passion. NO, I don't hate cyclists...a cyclist... knows how to ride.

    I mean I hate bike riders...

    So many bike riding jackasses still run lights and go wrong way and all the crap which makes motorists seethe. gawd damn it just never ends.
    +1

    Knock wood, I've never been hit by a car.

    However, while commuting on my bike, I've been taken down twice by bike riders who veered into me. WTF? Everyday I wind up playing chicken with idiots riding in the bike lane on the wrong side of the road.

    It's ironic that the most dangerous part of my commute seems to be the bike path, and the least dangerous part is the narrow two-lane highway with no bike path and no shoulder.

  51. #51
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    So I just don't get the attitude. You urban folk, chime in.

    Bike paths must be very different where you guys live than where I live. Having our rails to trails path over here is a real blessing for the commute. Infrastructure to separate cyclists from motorists just makes sense to me. I compare our situations over here to Holland. The infrastructure over there makes it very easy and very clear for both motorists and for cyclists to use the roadways. Also because everyone is much more used to it, the expectations and education level are better because bicycle commuting has been a cultural phenomenon there for as long as there is been bicycles problem. so it just all works out better.

    Because our use of the roadways in greater numbers is a change from the previous normal, it will take time for education and for adjustment over here. I am not at all in agreement though with those that would not invest anything in improved infrastructure and lanes and signaling and other things to separate cars from bicycles. Like energy policy, I believe in looking at all options.

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunvalleylaw View Post
    Bike paths must be very different where you guys live than where I live.
    If it would just be a "bike path," then it would be much better. A big problem is meandering pedestrians...


    Quote Originally Posted by sunvalleylaw View Post
    Infrastructure to separate cyclists from motorists just makes sense to me. I compare our situations over here to Holland. The infrastructure over there makes it very easy and very clear for both motorists and for cyclists to use the roadways.
    Agreed. I commute several months a year in Germany, and I definitely feel safer on the road in Germany (despite the tram tracks and cobblestones) than I do in 'Merica.


    Quote Originally Posted by sunvalleylaw View Post
    Also because everyone is much more used to it, the expectations and education level are better because bicycle commuting has been a cultural phenomenon there for as long as there is been bicycles problem.
    I'm no so sure about this. Bike riders and pedestrians in Germany are almost as bad as in 'Merica, but that's probably because no place on earth is as bike-savvy as Holland.

    Bike riders in Germany also routinely ride down the wrong side of the road, and dawdling pedestrians wander into the bike lane (which often crosses the sidewalk). One of the bike riders who took me down was in Germany, and I've been taken down twice by pedestrians there, too (both pedestrians were in the wrong).
    At least most Germans respond sheepishly when somebody points out that they're in the wrong, rather than being so ignorant/arrogant as to argue about it...


    Quote Originally Posted by sunvalleylaw View Post
    ... it will take time for education and for adjustment over here...
    I'm usually pretty optimistic, but it seems to be getting worse, not better. Pedestrians focus 99.9% of their attention on their smart phones, not on their surroundings, and they're like unpredictable pylons out there...

  53. #53
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    For the most part, people just don't pay attention be it in a car or a pedestrian, and even cyclists. Throughout the campus here, they have created a bike only path. There are lanes going each way with arrows and bikes, and there are HUGE no pedestrian markings on the path itself. The path runs perpendicular to the old path that is now pedestrian only. You would not believe how many people just walk on the bike path instead of their specific sidewalk completely oblivious to everything around them.

    If people on foot cannot handle this simple concept and make their adjustments, setting up a bike friendly infrastructure on the roads here will take several hundred years.
    The pedals turn, not just the left one, but the right one too.

  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunvalleylaw View Post
    Bike paths must be very different where you guys live than where I live. Having our rails to trails path over here is a real blessing for the commute. Infrastructure to separate cyclists from motorists just makes sense to me. I compare our situations over here to Holland. The infrastructure over there makes it very easy and very clear for both motorists and for cyclists to use the roadways. Also because everyone is much more used to it, the expectations and education level are better because bicycle commuting has been a cultural phenomenon there for as long as there is been bicycles problem. so it just all works out better.

    Because our use of the roadways in greater numbers is a change from the previous normal, it will take time for education and for adjustment over here. I am not at all in agreement though with those that would not invest anything in improved infrastructure and lanes and signaling and other things to separate cars from bicycles. Like energy policy, I believe in looking at all options.
    We have rails to trails here, too. It's nice, but going most places there's not good access using them. So either way you'll have to hop on the road. In fortunate rust my commute to the university is eleven miles of those trail for the most part. If I go to work I have to ride on busier streets. That's when the cycle-hate usually happens.

    I used to ride on the roads because it was quicker, but now I ride on the bike trail system because it just feels safe. I can sister the extra five minutes (and the scenery is better).

  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by TenSpeed View Post
    Throughout the campus here, they have created a bike only path. There are lanes going each way with arrows and bikes, and there are HUGE no pedestrian markings on the path itself...
    I bet campus police on bikes handing out tickets would change people's behavior really quickly...

    Really, it would be nice to see cops on bikes going after some of the bike riders who can't seem to go down the right side of the road, too.

  56. #56
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    Sure it would take time but the improvements Tenspeed mention are a move in the right direction.

    Check this out:



    Automobiles, cyclists and pedestrians all in separate lanes, with separate signals, and low and behold, it all works out!

    It can happen people! We can adapt! It is just hard here in the US as we have been so conditioned to have all our infrastructure favoring cars. But that can change over time.

    Another thing that is interesting about this thread is how it seems it was easier to discuss this on my guitar forum than on this cycling forum. I was honestly surprised by the disagreement among cyclists. No one way is the right way necessarily, but if this is going to work, we need to come up with a common set of rules of the road for all, so that we can educate and set the expectations of all road users over time. Though obviously people are not perfect, we have currently a common set of rules of the road for cars that most people follow to a reasonable extent, rolling stops and speeding notwithstanding. This can be expanded to include other users, with enough infrastructure and education over time.

    We did it a century ago when we shifted from the horse and buggy to the automobile. We can do it again.

  57. #57
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    You might be right there. It'll be a slow transition. I think when/if oil prices are actually subject to the market and not so heavily subsidized that people will not be able to afford to drive as much unless they make about $100,00 a year. That would really speed things up, as I think most able bodied people would realize that the only solution for everyday travel is to work closer to home and to use the most energy efficient mode of transport... The bicycle!!

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    Here in Los Angeles County we have quite a few bike lanes, depending on where you ride and if the city is bicycle friendly. During my morning commute, I try to stick to bike lane roads, but at times, the bike lane disappears and some of the drivers lose their driving ability. When drivers are trying to get on the freeway and I have to ride by the on ramp, some drivers get stupid. I have not heard about 3 foot rule or the other bike proposed laws out here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by newfangled View Post
    And the hip new thing in bikelane design is bikeboxes, which encourage it.

    Here's a video that my city produced (even though we don't have any of these things???):
    <iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/bRPVxLIO79I" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

    Bikelanes are obviously different from roads without bikelanes, but for the cities that have a lot of bikeboxes, I'd assume that cyclists would start to carry the same behavior over to the streets without them.
    Very good concept.....but here in Los Angeles County.....drivers are too stupid, period!!!!

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