Sidewalks are Better......- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
    Still want a fat bike....
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    Sidewalks are Better......

    I know I have read about some "conversations" that have taken place during commutes, but I was fortunate enough to have one of my own last week on my Thursday commute.

    As I was rolling up to a stop light at a major intersection that I have to drive through each way, I hear, "Sidewalks are better." Now this was interesting because apparently it was just a good Samaritan trying to help me out in a very calm and non-aggressive way. The only problem...... as we all know, he is wrong.

    So since the light was red and he was in the turn lane to go right, I was fortunate enough to be able to pull up right next to him and he still had his window open. It went something along the lines of:

    Me: No, actually they are not better. People more often get hit by cars while riding on the sidewalk than in the road because people don't see them when they are turning.

    Him: Well, you have a whole line up of cars ready to hit you right there. (pointing behind me)

    Me: Yeah, but they see me and if they see me, they don't hit me.(I wear a bright green or bright orange shirt while commuting)

    Him: Rolls up his window indicating the end of the conversation.

    What I liked about it is that I kept my cool and didn't get upset about it. I just educated him about the importance of visibility and left it at that. Thankfully this guy was calm too and (unfortunately) in the car with his wife and children.

    I know people are scared of bicycles on the road and that is why they usually have problems with us, but just once I want to talk to someone on a real level and ask them if its worth my life for you to do get to work or wherever 20 seconds faster. I mean, really. People just don't stop and think very often, they just rage and honk or yell or do something even worse. I'll never understand.

  2. #2
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    Somtines sidewalks are safer....sometimes not....

    Often even the same intersection can be safer on the road and at a different time safer on the sidewalk....

    Just depends.

  3. #3
    jrm
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    Sidewalks Are....

    Illegal to ride on in a lot of Cities. I'd had said that you cant operate a "vehicle" on the sidewalk.

  4. #4
    big legs, small brains
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    About 3/4 of a mile of my commute is on a sidewalk made for multi use. No bike lane and very narrow traffic lanes. Buses, trucks and lions and tigers oh my! That section of sidewalk is used by all bike commuters. Otherwise in the street all the time.

    PS way to keep your cool.....
    Kyle

  5. #5
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    Sidewalks are illegal to ride on here, but the cops never enforce it. Mainly because drivers here are notoriously bad to cyclists. I've been rear-ended and sideswiped, had bottles thrown at me and get yelled at at least 3 times a commute.

    So yea, I ride sidewalks a lot and am pretty careful. The street = pure warfare here. FYI - my town is supposedly a "Top 25 bike friendly" town. I disagree of course.
    - The only thing that keeps me on a bike is happiness.

  6. #6
    r00
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    Apparently here in Los Angeles in certain municipalities riding on the sidewalk is NOT illegal, and in some, it is. I check for bike lanes anyway, and I will always ride in the road.. A driver isn't looking for a bike on a sidewalk coming out of an alley, but will check for traffic in the road..

  7. #7
    weirdo
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    Quote Originally Posted by kylemason View Post
    Buses, trucks and lions and tigers oh my! That section of sidewalk is used by all bike commuters.


    Good story, Dalton. It doesn`t sound like any convincing went on one way or the other, but it does give me the warm fuzzies a little bit to hear about a civil discussion between a disagreeing cyclist and driver.

  8. #8
    It's about showing up.
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    Just as there is resistance within the mountain biking culture to police in itself for its own good on trails, automobile drivers can be irreverent about bikes on the road. While these 2 paradigms do not seem similar they both find their root in the lack of any institutional expression of what is acceptable and useful in commonly shared areas.

    Mountain bikers do not want to be limited in any way and want to ride the way they want to ride.

    Cars are in their own throttle-driven, air-conditioned, iPod world. They have roads built for them with a series of laws, largely designed to manage other cars, which the DMV requires them to understand to allow them to drive. They only see bicycles in terms of how they encumber their own flow and destination.

    It seems that cyclists everywhere have to fight for a place for their tire to roll. Commuters are in the absolutely most dangerous situation.

    The guy that the OP pulled up next to is a classic example of some self-constructed logic about what bikes ought to do, curiously serving only his own needs. I am certain he thinks his point of view is only common sense. Don't get me started on the fallacy of common sense.

    Mountain bikers behave like this on trails all the time.

    So why, then, is this driver so puzzling?
    I don't rattle.

  9. #9
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    I'm not sure I understand the line about riding on the footpath being more dangerous because cars can't see you. If you're crossing the road, isn't it your responsibility to check for cars, the same as if you were walking? Or am I missing something here?

  10. #10
    r00
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    Quote Originally Posted by zed42 View Post
    I'm not sure I understand the line about riding on the footpath being more dangerous because cars can't see you. If you're crossing the road, isn't it your responsibility to check for cars, the same as if you were walking? Or am I missing something here?
    I'm not talking about crossing a road, I'm talking about going parallel with traffic. If you're going parallel with traffic and you're on the sidewalk, moving cars can't necessarily see you if there are cars parked on the side of the road. If they were to take a right turn into an alley or street, and you're still moving forward, it'll take you a bit of time to stop, and they're usually not prepared for a bike moving quickly. A pedestrian can stop in one step. Also, in an urban situation, cars coming out of blind alleys sometimes rush through the sidewalk and right up to the street.. Happens a lot in LA. If you're flying down the sidewalk you might get hit.

    Anyway, it's still good to watch out for the cagers on the cellphones just in case.

  11. #11
    jrm
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    Just dont

    forget that you just dont know what people are capable of.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by r00 View Post
    I'm not talking about crossing a road, I'm talking about going parallel with traffic. If you're going parallel with traffic and you're on the sidewalk, moving cars can't necessarily see you if there are cars parked on the side of the road. If they were to take a right turn into an alley or street, and you're still moving forward, it'll take you a bit of time to stop, and they're usually not prepared for a bike moving quickly. A pedestrian can stop in one step. Also, in an urban situation, cars coming out of blind alleys sometimes rush through the sidewalk and right up to the street.. Happens a lot in LA. If you're flying down the sidewalk you might get hit.

    Anyway, it's still good to watch out for the cagers on the cellphones just in case.
    But if they're turning into a street, you're only going to get hit if you're actually crossing the street at the time? In which case you should have checked for cars, before crossing the road... Is it just that it's too inconvenient to stop at every intersection? I'll admit I only cross 3 or 4 roads on my commute, and there are no parked cars near any of them, so it's pretty easy for me to check for traffic without stopping.

  13. #13
    r00
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    If you're already street crossing, and they hit you, that would be their fault. Drivers must be in control of their vehicles at all times, DMV rule. I'm only talking about while you're on the sidewalk, not in a crosswalk. And when I say you're, that's just a generalized you're, not meaning you per se.

  14. #14
    weirdo
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    Quote Originally Posted by zed42 View Post
    But if they're turning into a street, you're only going to get hit if you're actually crossing the street at the time? In which case you should have checked for cars, before crossing the road... Is it just that it's too inconvenient to stop at every intersection?
    Yes, it is the cyclist`s responsibility to look before entering or turning onto a street, just as it`s a drivers responsibility and a pedestrian`s responsibility to do the same. But the bigger issue comes when crossing sidestreets, driveways, parking lot entrances, etc. That`s where sidewalks can be disasterous for a cyclist. Like r00 said, drivers very often pull out of those side streets or parking lots without looking sufficiently. Maybe they`re on autopilot, maybe in a hurry, maybe anything, but it happens all the time- pull up to the line, kinda sorta stop while kinda sorta checking to the left (and probably not looking to the right at all, which is why riding on the left side is usually a bad plan), then floor it and make their right turn. Or pull off the street and into one of those driveways, side streets, or parking lots without noticing that somebody is present on the sidewalk and maybe even moving along at a pretty good clip. If you`re in the lane, or even on the shoulder area, you stand a good chance they`ll see you. If you`re on the sidewalk, it`s doubtful you`ll register in their minds. So, it isn`t so much that stopping for every stop sign is a big inconvenience, but that stopping for EVERY intersection (even when you don`t have a stop sign), plus every parkinglot entrance, plus every driveway would be absurd.

  15. #15
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    Driveways I can understand, maybe car park entrances but I'm still not quite getting sidestreets. Surely you're even less likely to get hit by a car pulling out of a sidestreet because you would see them coming and they would be slowing down for the intersection? I assumed r00 mean someone pulling in to a sidestreet.
    Obviously stopping for every driveway would be absurd, but what do you mean about stopping at every intersection even when you don't have a stop sign? Do the stop signs apply to traffic on the footpath where you live?

  16. #16
    weirdo
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    "Surely you're even less likely to get hit by a car pulling out of a sidestreet because you would see them coming and they would be slowing down for the intersection?"
    Less likely to get hit by the guy turning off the street than turning onto the street? Maybe, but either way (in or out) the driver is more likely to see YOU when you`re on the street than on the sidewalk. Additionally, a car pulling onto a street will reach t lane six feet or so after reaching the sidewalk, so a fraction of a second more time to react for both the cyclist and the driver.

    "Obviously stopping for every driveway would be absurd, but what do you mean about stopping at every intersection even when you don't have a stop sign?"
    I`m talking about when you ride a busy street or avenue that intersects many side streets. In many cases, while all the sidestreets have stop signs, the main route does not. Don`t you have roads like that in your area?

    "Do the stop signs apply to traffic on the footpath where you live? "
    Never cared enough about that to wonder, let alone investigate. I seriously doubt it, though.

    To be honest, a few years ago I would have argued that one should NEVER ride on a sidewalk, but other people have since made very convincing arguments as to why it might be better in some unusual situations. If you feel compelled to do it for this or that stretch of road, maybe you`re right, but for the most part you`re less likely to get hit if you ride in the lane.

    More:
    How to Ride in Traffic -- Roadway Bicycling Instructions for Cyclists
    Google

  17. #17
    Still want a fat bike....
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    Yeah, I think that when referring to side streets and such in my area, I am talking about business up to the corner where sometimes you just can't see the cars coming up so you have to seriously slow down in case you just happen to be coming to the intersection at the same time.

    I agree that there was no convincing going on as he rolled up his window to indicate the end of the conversation like a 2 year old, but it was fun to actually talk to someone and explain why he isn't truly correct.

    I also agree that there are times when sidewalks are truly better/safer, but on my commute, I just don't see how. I turn to the sidewalks when the weather turns bad here and we start seeing snow just because I don't want someone sliding into me and my commute takes SO MUCH longer because I have to really watch for people to do something dumb in front of me on the sidewalk since they are not paying attention because they are not used to bikes. I see one guy on the regular when I commute 4 days out of 5 per week and that is it.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by rodar y rodar View Post
    "Surely you're even less likely to get hit by a car pulling out of a sidestreet because you would see them coming and they would be slowing down for the intersection?"
    Less likely to get hit by the guy turning off the street than turning onto the street? Maybe, but either way (in or out) the driver is more likely to see YOU when you`re on the street than on the sidewalk. Additionally, a car pulling onto a street will reach t lane six feet or so after reaching the sidewalk, so a fraction of a second more time to react for both the cyclist and the driver.

    "Obviously stopping for every driveway would be absurd, but what do you mean about stopping at every intersection even when you don't have a stop sign?"
    I`m talking about when you ride a busy street or avenue that intersects many side streets. In many cases, while all the sidestreets have stop signs, the main route does not. Don`t you have roads like that in your area?

    "Do the stop signs apply to traffic on the footpath where you live? "
    Never cared enough about that to wonder, let alone investigate. I seriously doubt it, though.

    To be honest, a few years ago I would have argued that one should NEVER ride on a sidewalk, but other people have since made very convincing arguments as to why it might be better in some unusual situations. If you feel compelled to do it for this or that stretch of road, maybe you`re right, but for the most part you`re less likely to get hit if you ride in the lane.

    More:
    How to Ride in Traffic -- Roadway Bicycling Instructions for Cyclists
    Google
    To be honest, no I don't have roads like that where I live. The roads are all either big enough that I wouldn't even consider crossing without stopping, or they have roundabouts (or underpasses). I think I know what you mean though. My entire commute, I think, is safer on the path, but it's a multi-use path, built specifically for cycling on, with very few cross streets and no driveways at all. I can see how it might be different if I were riding in a more urban area.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrm View Post
    forget that you just dont know what people are capable of.
    My dad always says "you could be a 100% right and 100% dead"... it doesn't translate that well into english but you get the point. I always stick to the sidewalk when I'm at an intersection, I know I have every right to be on the road but that doesn't mean much to some idiot thats in a hurry.

    I've never been hit by a car or had a 'love tap' by one but if someone tried to pull that on me I wouldn't be able to control myself, my temper's way to short for something like that.
    "Nothing compares to the simple pleasure of a bike ride." - John F. Kennedy

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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dalton View Post

    I know people are scared of bicycles on the road and that is why they usually have problems with us.......
    no, thats really not the case at all. Its because of the a-holes that ride in the lane, backing up traffic and not getting out of the way. Even more when theres a bike lane next to them but they refuse to use it.

    Then theres the guys that back up traffic causing everyone to miss the traffic light, then they just ride through it on red.

    Just because someone doesnt like you it doesnt mean theyre scared.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tim-H View Post
    no, thats really not the case at all. Its because of the a-holes that ride in the lane, backing up traffic and not getting out of the way. Even more when theres a bike lane next to them but they refuse to use it.

    Then theres the guys that back up traffic causing everyone to miss the traffic light, then they just ride through it on red.

    Just because someone doesnt like you it doesnt mean theyre scared.
    Are you retarded? You're blaming it on a scenario thats happened once, maybe twice in your life? As if every rider is an ass.
    "Nothing compares to the simple pleasure of a bike ride." - John F. Kennedy

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  22. #22
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    The bike lane situation once. The rest of it is very common. You have to be kidding yourself if you think the reason motorists don't like cyclists is because they're afraid of them.

    You put an opinion on me that I don't have. I don't think all commuters or road cyclists are asses, I commute from time to time myself. The non cycling community does base their opinion of all on the bad experiences theyve had with others.

  23. #23
    Class Clown
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    just watch your ass out there

  24. #24
    namagomi
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    Quote Originally Posted by dundundata View Post
    just watch your ass out there
    Not too much though, you might not get to work on time.

  25. #25
    Still want a fat bike....
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tim-H View Post
    no, thats really not the case at all. Its because of the a-holes that ride in the lane, backing up traffic and not getting out of the way. Even more when theres a bike lane next to them but they refuse to use it.

    Then theres the guys that back up traffic causing everyone to miss the traffic light, then they just ride through it on red.

    Just because someone doesnt like you it doesnt mean theyre scared.
    I have to disagree. I think that the majority of the guys who get mad don't know what to do around a bike. At least where I am at, that seems to be the case. Not many people on bikes here, so not many drivers have experience with a person who knows how to ride a bike on a road.

    Most people here just don't know what to do when there is a commuter on the road, so they do something dumb because they are afraid to pass or afraid to do anything for fear of the big bad biker just rolling out in front of them without looking or something.

  26. #26
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    I love it when people in cars who have never ridden a bike to work in their life attempt to school us on the best way to commute on a bike. Personally I find it funny.

    Thats probably exactly what I would have said to him.

  27. #27
    namagomi
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    Sidewalks are better ... if you're 8yrs old and travel 10km/h.

    Still pretty dangerous as evidence by the number of kids run-over by reversing cars.

  28. #28
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    in my city, it is pretty illegal, not to mention, i will put others at harm, since generally, my local city is filled with pedestrians..

    ONLY downside is that there are so many idiotic drivers, and is VERY dangerous! Some idiotic Teenage driver purposely cut me off, by going into the bike lane for no reason at all, and just stayed there.. He never even turned off into a street.

  29. #29
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    Depends on the street, sidewalk and situation. Riding on a sidewalk in a residentual neighborhood is probably never a good idea. However, hoping up onto a sidewalk to avoid a very busy, narrow street in an industrial area can be much safer than the road. Just don't go full speed and be smart about it. I would never ride sidewalks for entire length of a commute, but there are some roads that are not safe to ride. The bottom line is that when commuting by bike, you can find yourself in many less than ideal situations and you just need to know how to adapt to get to your destination safely.

  30. #30
    namagomi
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    Intersections are the most dangerous areas for cyclists.

    Every driveway is an intersection when you're on the sidewalk.

  31. #31
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    In my experience cycling in London, the cyclists who ride on the sidewalk are the ones who believe they are one of the following:

    • A pedestrian on wheels
    • Allowed to ride wherever they went when it suits their fancy
    • Are afraid

    Londoners are quite used to cyclists on the road—not to suggest they don't cut us off and sometimes wish we weren't there. With that said, I haven't ridden anywhere that is legitimately dangerous on the road. There are very narrow roads, complicated intersections, lots of cars/buses, fast driving, etc., and I can say that people's fear of riding on the road here in London is generally unjustified.

    I am going back to the US next week as a much more 'educated' cyclist, so we'll see what I think of it now

  32. #32
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    I've ridden on the road, including rush hour arterials, 99% of the time, for more than ten years.

    I have seen enough events along the way that I will no longer discourage people from riding on the sidewalk. Most of these events were seen while road riding on...rush hour arterials.

    That said, the potential pitfalls of sidewalk riding have been nicely documented in this thread.
    The above statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration

  33. #33
    Still want a fat bike....
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    I agree that it is really up to the cyclist and I know there are times when sidewalks are indeed better....... I know that in the winter when roads are slippery, I will get on the sidewalk for the 2.5 miles I have to travel on a main 4 lane road. I will also plan to go much slower and pay a lot more attention to driveways and intersections than I have to right now. That is not to say I don't pay attention, but I am also not worried about someone pulling out in front of me when I am on the road.

  34. #34
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    Reverse commute FTW!

    I'm fortunate that I only have to ride on a street with no bike lane for a few blocks. Of course, the road with a bike lane is more a conceptual thing, with a bike painted on the ground (where parking is allowed), and some optimistic "share the road" signs. Most of the ride is on a multiuse pathway but to get to it on the road I would have to ride with traffic where the lanes get squeezed to go under a rail trestle. People here are terrible, and aggressive, drivers, so I take the sidewalk for those two blocks.

    It never ceases to amaze me how close cars think they can cut it when deciding to turn in front of me even after seeing me. I am moving a lot faster than they realize. Still, fortunately most traffic is going the opposite direction.

  35. #35
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    For those of us in Southern California, here is a link to the LADOT Bike Blog which address the issue of sidewalk bike riding:

    LA County Sidewalk Riding: Part1 « LADOT Bike Blog


    LADOT Bike Blog compiled all of the various sidewalk bike riding rules for every city in Los Angeles County in a 7-Part Series + Coverage Map:

    Sidewalks « LADOT Bike Blog


    Here's a brief glimpse of the series

    Part 1: LA, LA County, and Inner Suburbs:

    > City Of Los Angeles: Riding on the sidewalk in the City is legal as long as you aren’t being dangerous. If you feel you must ride on the sidewalk, please be extra careful when navigating intersections, driveways, and alleyways. Bikeways, as always, encourages riders to take their rightful place in the street. See LAMC Sec. 56.15

    > County of Los Angeles: For all those unincorporated slices of LA County, riding your bike on the sidewalk is not allowed. See Sec.15.76.080

    > Beverly Hills: No sidewalk bike riding where 50% of the buildings are businesses. See LADOT Blog for details.

    > Glendale: No sidewalk bike riding in business districts.

    > West Hollywood: Sidewalk bike riding is only allowed where no bike lane is provided and you must ride with traffic. Yielding to all pedestrians is also required.

    > Culver City: Culver City is similar to Glendale and Beverly Hills, but their code has even more caveats with their inclusion of schools, rec centers and playgrounds as areas that also prohibit sidewalk riding. See Blog for details.

    > Santa Monica: Very clearly not allowed.

    > Inglewood: Inglewood does not allow sidewalk riding for any type of vehicle


    Again, complete coverage for Full Sidewalk Riding Rules regarding other surrounding Los Angeles communites can be found here:

    Sidewalks « LADOT Bike Blog

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by nikojan View Post
    My dad always says "you could be a 100% right and 100% dead"... it doesn't translate that well into english but you get the point. I always stick to the sidewalk when I'm at an intersection, I know I have every right to be on the road but that doesn't mean much to some idiot thats in a hurry.

    I've never been hit by a car or had a 'love tap' by one but if someone tried to pull that on me I wouldn't be able to control myself, my temper's way to short for something like that.
    My temper is horrible as well and it has gotten me into plenty of needless trouble in the past. I go out of my way to watch for vehicles and make sure I yield to them....if someone were to give me a "love tap" or sideswipe me as other people have mentioned things would turn violent very rapidly.
    Luckily where I live people don't care if you ride on sidewalks and there is no law against it.
    In some places where there isn't much of a shoulder to ride on I will ride on the sidewalk. Other places the shoulder is big enough to park a semi on....I'll ride on the shoulder. Some streets don't have much of a shoulder and have no sidewalk. I just avoid those places completely.
    I like to ride my bike.....but it still pisses me off when I'm in my car and stuck behind someone on a bike that couldn't pick a route with more room to ride.
    I feel that some people (not all) that ride on narrow roads blocking traffic are doing so only for the reason of blocking traffic to amuse themselves or prove the point that they can ride wherever they want.

    I am aware of the laws and rights I have as a cyclist....but I'm also aware that most drivers aren't.

  37. #37
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    I guess im luckier than you guys... I take small back roads and the dprt (Des Plaines River Trail) to commute everywhere.
    Yes, my bike did cost more than my truck. And it was worth every penny.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haligan78 View Post
    ... in my car and stuck behind someone on a bike that couldn't pick a route with more room to ride.
    I feel that some people (not all) that ride on narrow roads blocking traffic are doing so only for the reason of blocking traffic to amuse themselves or prove the point that they can ride wherever they want.
    If I can say without criticising Haligan, this typifies why motorists don't like cyclists. They want to get somewhere and a cyclist is potentially in their way. I was absolutely like that too. Now I deliberately ride far enough into the road so that the motorist has to pass me properly, instead of trying to dangerously squeeze by.

    Cyclists are not going to be more safe on the road until motorists stop being self-centred like that, and the most effective way for them to get better is by having to actually deal with cyclists. Local communities also desperately need to do more to educate motorists that cyclists belong on the road.

    Here in London I still get cut off, passed within millmetres (by trucks too!), etc., and was even in an accident with a car who turned in front of me. But the motorists know that cyclists belong, and that's because there are a lot on the road—they have to deal with them.

    Of course there are some legitimately dangerous places for cyclists to ride, but in my experience the fear is more often than not imagined.

  39. #39
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    My province collected stats from Bicycle collisions from 2004-2008

    Unfortunately they don't break-out sidewalk-related collisions, but there are some interesting findings.

    In 61% of fatal collisions, and 37% of injury collisions the cyclist was driving properly.
    (and in 45% of fatalities and 65% of injuries the other driver was driving properly).

    In 0% of fatalities and 7% of injuries the cyclist "Failed to Yield Right of Way - Uncontrolled Intersection" I assume that this would cover many sidewalk-related collisions? (then again, 8% of fatalities and 27% of injuries are listed as "other")

    In 65% of fatalities and 52% of injuries there was no traffic control device present for cyclists. Not sure how that relates to the sidewalk issue vs. driving properly.

    In 50% of fatalities, 42% of major injuries, and 44% of minor injuries the point of impact on the bicycle was Front-Centre. The Rear impact breakdown was 13%/10%/12%, and Left was 25%/26%/28%.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by newfangled View Post
    In 50% of fatalities, 42% of major injuries, and 44% of minor injuries the point of impact on the bicycle was Front-Centre. The Rear impact breakdown was 13%/10%/12%, and Left was 25%/26%/28%.
    What's odd is that in an Ontario study from the same time period, the hit-from behinds are 12% of all accidents and 40% of fatalities.

    http://www.toronto.ca/transportation...ion_type10.pdf

    These stats and their meaning have been debated to death in other cycling forums, thus I only present them for browsing.
    The above statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration

  41. #41
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    ^ I enjoy that one of the Significant Factors is "Taxi." Man, I hate taxis.

    Those Toronto numbers are for Motorist Overtaking Cyclist though, so would probably include impacts from behind as well as impacts from the left. For the Alberta data then a better comparable might be 13% + 25% = 38% of fatalities?

    And for context most the Alberta data will be from Edmonton & Calgary, which are both very suburban, both have extensive multi-use trail systems (that may or may not actually be useful for getting where you're going, but are pretty effective at luring recreational cyclists off the roads), and both have very little on-road cycling infrastructure.

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by newfangled View Post
    ^ I enjoy that one of the Significant Factors is "Taxi." Man, I hate taxis.

    Those Toronto numbers are for Motorist Overtaking Cyclist though, so would probably include impacts from behind as well as impacts from the left. For the Alberta data then a better comparable might be 13% + 25% = 38% of fatalities?

    And for context most the Alberta data will be from Edmonton & Calgary, which are both very suburban, both have extensive multi-use trail systems (that may or may not actually be useful for getting where you're going, but are pretty effective at luring recreational cyclists off the roads), and both have very little on-road cycling infrastructure.
    Actually in Calgary anyway the paths are very efficicient at getting you to where you are going.

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by newfangled View Post
    Those Toronto numbers are for Motorist Overtaking Cyclist though, so would probably include impacts from behind as well as impacts from the left.
    As I read it, rear-enders, sideswipes and mirror-slaps but not any kind of motorist turning maneuvers (right hooks were separate).

    I'll add that this concurs with my own experience, as my last 5 or 10 *contacts* with cars have all been mirror-slaps and sideswipes while riding generally in a VC road position. None have been hard enough to cause a crash. Take that as good or bad, I dunno.
    The above statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration

  44. #44
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    One thing's for sure: getting rear ended on the sidewalk even by a Taxi has got to be pretty darn rare!

    The injury and death with rear enders are disproportionate and strongly argue for mirrors or a lot of looking back. The lane change and acceleration to pass a left-turning truck which hides me from the driver of an overtaking vehicle is one of my concerns as Indiana allows the shoulder to be used to pass a left-turning vehicle. No sidewalks in most places, and those that exist were made in the thirties and are heaved every which way. Definitely a full suspension proposition.

    BrianMc

  45. #45
    sofa king awsm
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    I ride on sidewalks for the sole purpose of killing pedestrians. I hate pedestrians.
    Baby, I want my face to be your quiver killer.

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buster Bluth View Post
    I ride on sidewalks for the sole purpose of killing pedestrians. I hate pedestrians.
    Haha, dude, clearly u are a noob. When on the roadway the pedestrians come right at you from corners, parked cars - you name it. No need to get on the sidewalk.

  47. #47
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    I recently read that here in AZ you can ride on the sidewalk (which I knew) but your speed is limited to pedestrian speeds (which I didn't know). I commute in the streets to work 8 miles in 30 minutes, if I stuck to sidewalks it would be about a 3 hour commute!

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom93R1 View Post
    I recently read that here in AZ you can ride on the sidewalk (which I knew) but your speed is limited to pedestrian speeds (which I didn't know). I commute in the streets to work 8 miles in 30 minutes, if I stuck to sidewalks it would be about a 3 hour commute!
    So what's the record for a 100 yard dash? Track Stars are pedestrians, right? I mean you can't be expected to be as slow as the slowest nonagenarian with a walker, right? Let's see, hmmm, World record is 100 meters in 9.72 seconds from a standing start, that's 2.607 minutes a mile or 23 mph and you aren't even allowing for the acceleration. Fast enough for you?

    I suspect lawyers defined "pedestrian speed" in the law someplace, but if not have at it!

    BrianMc

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    I dont think biking on sidewalk OR street is SAFE!

    Here in the Santa Clara area, I am only a highschool kid.. heres my story.. After many recent bike trips with a couple of friends, we generally take the city streets from home, to get to trails, since our parents aren't able to give us a ride (even us, we aren't licensed to drive yet).

    Anyways.. I find riding on the Side walk is VERY dangerous when it comes to an intersection, because the building reduces the amount of time you can react to a car coming around the turn. Also, it seems like cars that are going the same way as you aren't able to see you as well, since the cars, trees, pedestrians, and misc items can block the drivers view (Especially in a sedan).

    However, riding on street is scary too.. Dang chinese drivers need to open their eyes and watch out! (i know they are chinese because my friend is chinese, and understands what they are yelling at us) Seriously, a 30min bike ride from the city to home, i was hit by almost 6 chinese drivers, 1 latino, and 1 teen driver on the phone. They clearly were not paying attention to their surrondings! its almost impossible to miss us since we ride during bright day time, and wear very bright colored shirts, that stand out, like a neon yellow, during daylight. I respect those who do respect bikers, and move over to the next lane away from the biker or slow down to pass safely. This is generally what happens when i ride. However, when those inconsiderate bastards begin driving, it just really scares me, and I have come to situations, where i was HIT. I feel the driving license test should be ALOT harder if these people are this careless. geeze.

    (sorry for sounding racist, but im telling you the truth)

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    Haha, dude, clearly u are a noob. When on the roadway the pedestrians come right at you from corners, parked cars - you name it. No need to get on the sidewalk.
    I thought B. Bluth had a valid reason until you took the air out of his balloon!

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrianMc View Post
    I suspect lawyers defined "pedestrian speed" in the law someplace, but if not have at it!
    Probably gets into the staying to the right thing. As slow as "practicably" possible? How fast would Chipseal ride?

  52. #52
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    The 'Chinese' phenomenon is not race, but experience IMHO. Consider the number of hours of observation we have riding as passengers, if our family had a car. We learn alot about proper driving if our parents were half-decent at it. That comes into play when we drive, especially in the first few years. I know one person who constantly accelerated and decelerated and could never anticipate his car so weaved down the lane after 40 years of driving, who lacked that early background. I rode with him once and got motion sick from the experience. I have seen this on campuses with people from other countries where motor vehicles were uncommon and they were the first in their family to have a car. Think of them as pre-distracted. No cell phones required.

    A small but real percentage of elderly drivers with very low annual miles seem to fall out of the best safe driving practices, too. This may be due to arthritis in the neck/back and other issues reducing the ability to really look properly. If they look through the steering wheel to see, you can bet they have a hard time seeing you.

    Mini-van moms can be an issue. In too big of a hurry, with too many little ones distracting them and too often on a cell phone.

    Teenagers? Again a small but significant minority are very dangerous. Especially shortly before school start and they might be late, or after blasting out of school parking lots with reckless abandon. Ask CB.

    No activity is perfectly safe. I agree riding sidewalks and coming to building obscured intersections is exceedingly risky especially above a walking pace. Watching for idiots is difficult when having a good time riding with your friends. Drivers will mess up. Most accidentally, other by making stupid decisions, exceedingly few out of malice. You are your own and best defense.

    BrianMc

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